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eCat Gets Wired

October 6, 2011

Thanks to Ghost Dawg for letting us know that the UK version of Wired has posted an article on the eCat. It is blanced and may be the forerunner to the hoped-for change in media coverage.

To all of you commenting and posting news; thank you. I will update this post with the most interesting developments.


The Wired article is here:

According to Daniele at (who is at the test and twittering) the module is up and running in self-sustain mode.!/22passi

A new report from a test done in July of a module reportedly similar to the subject of today’s test.
[thank you, Ivan Mohorovicic]

3 Hours into self-sustain mode. (Note: We do not know if this is an absolute or ‘periodic’ self-sustain – either is significant as it shortens the time required for definitive conclusions).

[Ivan Mohorovicic]

Translation: “…however,  I can confirm that [the module] is still in self-sustaining regime… since three hours ago…”

Now 4 hours.

Comment by Renzo:

“Passerini has just writtern in the comments of his blog that the self-sustainining is continuous, without further electrical inputs!!!!”

Comment from Sebastion re 22passi:

“…Translates to:

The output of the E-Cat is like … touching a coffee pot on the fire: you can not keep your finger on it. What T the datalog measures you will read tomorrow after Ny Teknik publish. The delta T on the secondary is the same order of magnitude as the test done in February (some of you will remember my full).
Self-sustenance is stable with no interruptions (COP therefore infinite?).
Rossi announced early on that test will be reweighed at the end of everything and opened up…”

Comment from Renzo re 22passi:


“At 7pm, after 4 hours in continuous self sustaining mode, the reaction has been stopped as planned. This will buy enough time for the E-Cat to cool off. Then it will be dissasembled and controlled. The end of the operations is expected by 12pm”

Comment from Renzo:

“A twit by raymond zreick:

“between 3pm and 7pm the median difference in temperature has been 5° (between water in input and water in output) , with 0,6 cubic meters for hour”

Comment from Ivan Mohorovicic:

” Watch raymond_zreick’s tweet account for added information:!/raymond_zreick “

Comment from AB:


It is not very pretty on the inside. If you were thinking about hi-tech… no. To be honest, the open e-cat is almost disappointing. Is that really all to it? Yet, it seems to do its job well (make lots of heat): we have not been shown the mysterious component, though.

Posted by on October 6, 2011. Filed under Bologna,Media & Blogs,Rossi,Tests & Demos. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

115 Responses to eCat Gets Wired

  1. Jeff

    October 6, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    Your link is wrong for the wired article, need a – in between e and cat:

    • admin

      October 6, 2011 at 3:37 pm

      Thanks, Jeff. Sorted.


      • Ivan Mohorovicic

        October 7, 2011 at 11:31 am

        By the way, I forgot to tell you this yesterday, but I think it would be nice to the site owners and bloggers if you made the URLs listed in your blogposts live (that work by clicking on them instead of copy/pasting on the address bar of one’s own browser). You might get this favor back someday.

  2. Frost*

    October 6, 2011 at 4:32 pm

    Taken from 22passi yfrog site. I see that ecats now have silver thermal jackets.

  3. Ivan Mohorovicic

    October 6, 2011 at 5:41 pm

    Passerini: L’uscita dell’E-Cat è come… come toccare una caffettiera sul fuoco: non ci si può tenere il dito sopra. Quanta T misura il datalog lo leggerete domani dopo che Ny Teknik pubblicherà. Il delta T sul secondario è dello stesso ordine di grandezza di quello del test fatto a febbraio (qualcuno di voi si ricorderà quant’era).
    L’auto-sostentamento è stabile senza interruzioni (dunque COP infinito?).
    Rossi ha annunciato sin dall’inizio che a fine test sarà ripesato tutto e aperto tutto.

    Translation: the E-Cat outlet is like… touching a steaming coffee pot: you can’t leave your fingers on it. You will read tomorrow about the temperature measured by the data logger after NyTeknik will publish it.
    The Delta T on the secondary [?] is on the same order of magnitude of that of the February test [Levi’s]
    The self-sustainment is stable, without interruptions (there for infnite COP?)
    Rossi stated since the beginning that at the end of the test everything will be weighted again and opened [for inspection].


    Personal remark from me on woohoo HTML tags! But I think we need a preview function to make correct use of it.

    • StillWating

      October 6, 2011 at 6:29 pm

      This post showed up right as I posted my (other) message. Is this the information I’ve been looking for? Is this proof of excess heat? The unit has been unplugged and still produces heat?

      • Burt

        October 6, 2011 at 6:44 pm

        “@Daniele 22 passi: at 19:00, after 4 hours in continuous self-sustaining mode, the reaction has been interrupted as planned. This will allow some time for the E-Cat module to cool down. Afterwards, it will be disassembled and inspected. The end of the operations is planned for 00:00.”
        This is good news of course, but let’s enjoy the official report tomorrow.

        • Tony

          October 6, 2011 at 8:52 pm

          Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t the run supposed to last “at least” 12 hours? Or is the cool-down time counted as part of the run?

  4. StillWating

    October 6, 2011 at 6:17 pm

    We are witnessing the most important test in human history. There is there no coverage in ENGLISH, anywhere on the internet–(the target market being made of English speakers)… In fact, if it wasn’t for, there would be no information at all. All these esteemed professionals are present, yet no one can talk about the test, due to some self-imposed media blackout. All the right people are present, yet all have promised to say nothing yet, can’t talk about, exclusive media reports etc.etc
    The few pages I click on are gibberish in another language. I click on the translate option, and I get info about yet another test conducted three months ago. Which brings me to the twitter link. The link doesn’t work (or at least it didn’t for me) if you include the !# part (in the internet address). It finally occurs to me to get rid of the !# part, and I end up not at twitter, but at something called “yFrog”. I have no idea what yFrog is, or what part it plays in the most important test in human history. I do manage to see something on yFrog that looks like a coffee machine (an actual coffee machine). I can’t read anything because of the gibberish. Is this coffee machine based on the e-cat? I have no idea. I hope so.The most important test in human history, and this is how Rossi does it. Rossi needs to quit beating around the bush and work this out. He needs to do whatever it takes to convice people…people that are riding around in Mary’s Yugo. If this is the 11th test, maybe we can schedule a 12th test, and then someone will post information about the 11th test. One of the reasons Rossi invented the e-cat was to raise money for cancer treatment (for those that could not afford it). Rossi needs to stop playing games and produce evidence. Because his desire to help people with cancer is so strong, I am sure Andrea Rossi will induldge the skeptics and produce whatever evidence is required. Think of the sick children with cancer? Proving the e-cat is not hard to do, as has been discussed endlessly. Rossi needs to quit beating around the bush, and take his secret to GE or Seimens or Bill Gates (or whoever)—someone out there will write him a billion dollar check on the spot. There is no need to frogs and gibberish and bullcrap..there are too many people with cancer that he could be helping. I will check back later, and hopefully definitive information will have been posted, somehow, somewhere. . . . . . . . .

  5. Dee Tektive

    October 6, 2011 at 6:46 pm

    Dear Still Waiting,

    I sympathize with your frustration and impatience. You need a little more trust. Mr. Rossi is taking baby steps to avoid a calamity or error that would be blown up into a mainstream story like the last cold fusion fiasco. Doing it his way may be best for all involved to avoid official pressures and subterfuge. You can follow Passerini’s twitter account which confirms 4+hours in self-sustain mode i.e. zero energy in = continuous energy out!

    Meanwhile it is interesting to speculate on the advent of “New Fire.” We no longer have to combust matter to produce abundant energy. Imagine how much clean, fresh drinking water can be desalinated on the African continent. How much more food can be grown without fossil energy input. How many children the world over can READ or learn to read because they now have LIGHT! We are about to see a great change in the human condition – it will require great restraint and wisdom to manage it. But we are ready to do so. AND we have good friends in high places. The future is bright. And true. And that will make us free.

  6. Ivan Mohorovicic

    October 6, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    Watch raymond_zreick’s tweet account for added information:!/raymond_zreick

    • Ghost Dawg

      October 6, 2011 at 7:56 pm

      120 Celsius – 5 Celsius change over the course of 4 hours…

      I can’t wait to see if the temperature went UP at all during the 4 hours.

  7. Ghost Dawg

    October 6, 2011 at 7:23 pm

    As mad I as I am that they stopped the test after “only” 4 hours in self-sustain mode after promising at least 12 hours… The blow is a bit softened by Passerini’s comment…

    “the orders of magnitude are such that 12 or 24 hours does not change anything”

    So, if the output energy was so huge to rule out all other forms of stored or chemical energy in only 3 or 4 hours with no input…

    Then maybe we are alright after all.

    • maryyugo

      October 6, 2011 at 8:36 pm

      Passerini is an artist and a poet and is not a scientist, engineer or technologist — not that I know about anyway. I’d take his editorial remarks with a large grain of salt.

      • Ghost Dawg

        October 6, 2011 at 9:12 pm

        My comment was made with tongue firmly planted in cheek 😉

        • maryyugo

          October 6, 2011 at 11:44 pm

          Sorry, Can I apply to be the straight person in your comedy act?

          • Stephen

            October 7, 2011 at 6:37 am

            Considering how many times you’ve been called he/she/it on this board, you’ve got to be the best choice for the straight person for this comedy. 😉

  8. jarek

    October 6, 2011 at 7:37 pm

    Are they checking water input – there could be some high energy chemicals, catalyzed inside reactor?

  9. Anthony

    October 6, 2011 at 8:17 pm

    Back of the napkin calculation is 3.5kWh/h for 4 hours (please confirm). Hopefully the electrical input is zero. Hopefully everything was monitored and flow meters were used while not just relying on some pump settings. It’s going to take more than 30-50 of these to make 1MW though. Anxiously waiting for any reports.

    • maryyugo

      October 6, 2011 at 8:35 pm

      This E-cat was described as derived from the components of the megawatt power plant which has about 50 units. Therefore, you’d expect about 20 kW of continuous output at steady state. The home version of the E-cat was said by Rossi to be intended to run without attention for six months. I’d expect the industrial version to be even more robust. It wouldn’t be easy to exchange an E-cat inside a very hot container without shutting the whole thing down and letting it cool for a long time.

      So I’d expect a device capable of 20kW net power out for 6 months. It’d be nice to let it run more than four hours, wouldn’t it?

    • Thicket

      October 6, 2011 at 8:54 pm

      Four hours? For a claimed cold fusion unit ready for commercialization? I thought Rossi said it was to run for 12 hours? Wasn’t there a claim of a factory being heated over months (years?) by an E-Cat? Aren’t there numerous E-cats in four countries? Couldn’t Rossi get one to run longer? After all, he claims to generate a pile of energy.

      I think it’s time for Andrea to roll out his silver-tongued charm again. I’m sure he will.

      • Burt

        October 6, 2011 at 9:05 pm

        You will get the data reported tomorrow. Wait with qualified comments till then…

        • Stephen

          October 7, 2011 at 6:39 am

          I hope the raw data was immediately made available to people present for the demonstration. 4 hours does not require extended massaging…

      • RERT

        October 6, 2011 at 9:08 pm

        I read the four hours as without input power, I believe we were told the run would start at 10:00, and it finished at 19:00. So 9 hours not 12. They also have to let it cool down and dissassemble it, they will be lucky to be out before midnight. Plenty of scope to say the test lasted more than 12 hours.

      • charles sistovaris

        October 6, 2011 at 9:13 pm

        I have little doubt some of Rossi’s claims are plain lies or exaggerations to impress the public. I also suspect some demos to not have worked and Rossi of playing around with data to hide it instead of admitting it…. But because he lied once doesn’t mean he lies all the time : that’s called a sophism. Bragging about Rossi’s inconstancies doesn’t prove anything. Really I listen carefully to all the skeptic voices and I appreciate them a lot, because I don’t want to be fooled by my enthusiasm, it is so easy. But please at least give a chance to the new data to be scrutinized, analysed and whatever before singing the same tune of “Rossi is a scam”.

  10. Roger Barker

    October 6, 2011 at 8:44 pm

    Well, I suspected the test was going to be flaky and guess what? It is! So far I have not seen anything that suggests to me the device was producing excess power. Admittedly the information to date is sketchy at best. I’ll wait a couple of days before passing ultimate judgement on this. 🙂

  11. RERT

    October 6, 2011 at 8:58 pm

    “Rossi said” that the use of the secondary circuit would reduce measured output because of inherent inefficiency, whcih is plausible but should be a small factor.

    2.4 cubic metres of water heated by 5 degrees is the same heat as 80kg of water heated by 150 degrees, or 80kg of iron heated by up to 1500 degrees. If the heat is coming from a thermal reservoir there is some pretty heavy duty engineering going on. However, this isn’t enough to rule out chemical sources, e.g gasoline combustion. It would seem like that conclusion would need a test of ball-park a week to rule out an 80kg gas-tank.

    • Burt

      October 6, 2011 at 9:08 pm

      They get to open the 80 kg box and examine it! Except for the black box. What is the weight of the black box?
      Anyway, you will get the data reported tomorrow. Wait with qualified comments till then…

    • Ghost Dawg

      October 6, 2011 at 9:10 pm

      The E-Cat was taken apart, inspected and weighed before and after the test, so the volume is actually much less than 80kg

      • raul heining

        October 6, 2011 at 9:24 pm

        You should be more carefull with language, volume is mesured in m3
        not in Kg. If you say they weighed than you are right.
        Any way, this test time is enough to prove something new is happening, even if mary says there can be a hidden chemical source.
        I am curious about the new theories of skeptical fundamentalists and Krivit.

      • Roger Barker

        October 6, 2011 at 9:37 pm

        The weight should be identical before and after the test.

        • Still Waiting

          October 6, 2011 at 11:52 pm

          Did I read on here correctly (and we will know later when the report(s) comes out)…..that they DIDN’T EVEN WEIGH THE E-CAT before the tests? And are only going to weigh it after? Rossi knows this is one of the skeptic Big Deals. This is what I’m talking about, when I say he is not serious about releasing his invention, and is just beating around the bush. I sure hope I’m wrong. He really needs to get with the program. Especially on something this important.

          If the skeptics want him to stand on his head in a corner before and after the test, then he should do this (assuming he is dexterious enough). Any reasonable thing that can be done, he should do just to go the second mile and make the skeptics happy.

          A small percentage of people are chronic skeptics, and will never be satisfied. He can’t do anything to convince those people. The rest he can.

          Rossi needs to get with the program, and quit yanking everyones chain. The most important discovery in the history of mankind deserves no less.

          • Roger Barker

            October 7, 2011 at 12:50 am

            If the device was not weighed before and after the test then we can be pretty sure foul play is at hand.

          • Tony

            October 7, 2011 at 7:35 am

            According to Daniele Passerini, the device was weighed before and after the test and measurements were identical. Also, the thermocouple calibration was again checked after the test finished.

    • RERT

      October 6, 2011 at 9:19 pm

      …so I guess if the weight is not changed, we can rule out burning a kilo of gasoline, barring some very very neat footwork adsorbing just the right fraction of the exhaust gas.

      The best battery would be around 160 Wh/kg, so the 14 KWh needs about 90kg of battery. That’s basically excluded.

      • Roger Barker

        October 7, 2011 at 12:54 am

        Yes but this does not eliminate the fuel entering the fat cat by other means. The water could have been mixed with peroxide or something. I don’t know. Just speculating.

  12. Ghost Dawg

    October 6, 2011 at 10:16 pm

    I literally would have stayed up with the E-Cat for DAYS to prove that it is real…and it’s not even mine…I have nothing to gain financially like Rossi does!

    What could he possibly be thinking? This is crazy!

    If the E-Cat is real, then Andrea Rossi is absolutely the WORST entrepenuer the world has ever seen!

    If the E-Cat is real then he will succeed INSPITE of himself.

    The man sold his house (he says), used up all his cash, invested every waking moment engineering and re-enginnering different size modules.

    IF, and that’s a big IF, ROSSI actually has a working Fusion or LENR device that generates 6 TIMES (minimum claimed) the power you put in, where a GRAM of NICKEL equates to 5 BARRELS OF OIL….then he doesn’t have to do any of this!!!!

    He doesn’t need patents – To truly obtain one he would have to reveal everything, INCLUDING the catalyst.

    He doesn’t need a commercially viable machine!

    He doesn’t need 25kW modules or 1MW machines!

    All he has to do is DEFINITIVELY prove once and for all that it’s real!!!

    He would have every major COMMERCIAL and INDUSTRIAL TITAN of the world falling all over themselves to write him a check for more money than any one man can spend, as well as royalties for every generation of Rossi from here to eternity…which coincidentally would be extended because of his invention.

    He wouldn’t even need to give exclusivity…

    GE – N. America
    Seimens – Europe
    Samsung – Asia
    Even give the Middle East a horse in the race to keep everyone happy.

    Think of all the money he has spent on flying back and forth, building machines, demonstrations.

    For less than $10K he could probably rent out a lab in a reputable university, announce a press conference to every BIG MEDIA organization. Pay for the DAMN reporters plane tickets if you have to. If you just had Rueters, CNN, BBC that would be pretty much all you need.

    Then just run the damn prototype for DAYS, the first prototype is all that’s needed, WE DONT NEED IMPROVEMENTS OR STABILITY from you Andrea Rossi, we will leave that to the engineers at GE and Siemens…NOT YOU….all you have to do is prove that it’s real.

    Andrea Rossi doesn’t understand that the reason that all doors have not been opened for him, the reason that he had to sell his house, the reason the E-CAT is not known throughout the world at this very moment is simple…THEY DON’T BELIEVE YOU!

    Prove it, and everything else doesn’t matter!

    Jesus, this is so frustrating!

    O.K., I am now getting down from my soap box and turning the computer off for the rest of the day.

    • Ghost Dawg

      October 6, 2011 at 10:21 pm

      By the way, with that said, I am truly looking forward to the coming reports, because after today I think the E-Cat is probably REAL.

      • Sojourner Soo

        October 6, 2011 at 11:24 pm

        Gee. Your meds work fast. Honestly people. Calm down. There is no way this was a fake test. There were physicists there from all over the world. You cannot fool that many professional scientists. It simply is NOT possible. And disregard the numbers from the Focus editor on Twitter, until they have been confirmed. You all know how easy it is to make a typo. Once you click send on Twitter, it’s out there. Relax, take a few chill pills. Wait for tomorrow. The universe is unfolding as it should.

        • maryyugo

          October 6, 2011 at 11:43 pm

          “There were physicists there from all over the world. You cannot fool that many professional scientists.”

          Unfortunately one can. That’s why the protocol for the test has to be extremely transparent and the best tests are done by entirely independent groups with Rossi providing and touching nothing of the equipment except for the E-cat.

          • Sojourner Soo

            October 7, 2011 at 12:43 am

            Nonsense, Mary. That is utter nonsense.

          • maryyugo

            October 7, 2011 at 2:13 am

            “Nonsense, Mary. That is utter nonsense.”

            If I had told you that Uri Geller would fool Puthoff and Targ, two world-renowned physicists with extensive experience in several fields of physics and metallurgy, you’d have told me the same thing. But he did and the mistake was published in the prestigious journal “Nature”.

            The people we know of (Levi, K&E, and Lewans) are not rocket scientists and their previous work with Rossi has been absolutely dismal. It remains to be seen who else was there, what they did, what they saw and what they will say. We won’t know that until they speak and write.

          • Utter nonsense?

            October 7, 2011 at 2:47 am

            Why is it utter nonsense for Marryyugo to want an independent test? She is a skeptic, after all, and it would be no skin off Rossi’s nose.

            I’m sure you will agree that when the unit goes on sale, there will be lots (and lots and lots) of tests of this device for the next one hundred years.

            It will be replicated as the greatest science fair project for the children of the next several generations. Why is she so wrong with wanting such a test?
            It is going to happen anyway.

        • dash

          October 7, 2011 at 2:44 am

          Is there a list of physicists who were present today.

        • Stephen

          October 7, 2011 at 6:42 am

          careful, Sojourner, one can indeed fool all of the people some of the time, and you’re declaring yourself to be a target candidate with such a statement.

    • AB

      October 6, 2011 at 10:34 pm

      Rossi needs a patent. The likely reason for his behavior is lack of a patent or fraud. I also find it hard to imagine that he could fake this for so long and so many tests, so I’m inclined to think that he has something real.

      (mental illness as some have suggested is not a serious explanation for his and other’s behavior.)

      • Still Waiting

        October 7, 2011 at 12:03 am

        You’re right, there is obviously something there….I mean, it has been, what, 11 or 12 tests now? Yet he still won’t do anything definitive. It is obvious he has something real. The last stop is now the release of an actual product in a few weeks. A successful product will wipe the board of all these tests.

        Instead of going down as the greatest inventor of all time,
        Andrea Rossi will go down in history as the man that delayed the greatest invention of all time.

    • Ransompw

      October 7, 2011 at 4:49 am

      Ghost dawg once fraud is all that is left, which is where we are, there is no test that will suffice.

    • Brad Arnold

      October 7, 2011 at 6:15 am

      Ghost Dawg:

      Rossi said at his first news conference in Jan ’11 that the only way people will believe him is if the device is commercialized. Frankly, as you can see by the multiple of successful public demonstrations so far ( ), they really don’t change that many minds. It is apparently a common human psychological phenomena to disbelieve non-consensus reality reporting.

      In other words Ghost Dawg, there is no short cut, and while your rant is understandable, it is not reflective of a viable alternate course that Rossi ought to have followed.

  13. MT

    October 6, 2011 at 11:36 pm

    It would appear from comments above that the device worked and was able to heat 0.6 cubic meters of water by 5 degrees Celsius per hour. Does anyone here know how many KW of energy that is?

    • stu

      October 7, 2011 at 12:52 am

      0.6 m^3 = 600,000 cm^3, that volume at 4.18 J / (cm^3 * C) times a delta T of 5 C = 12,540,000 J , divided by a time of (60*60) s = roughly 3.5 kW of average power (not energy as stated in your question).

  14. MT

    October 6, 2011 at 11:58 pm

    If he can heat 0.6 cubic meters by 5 degrees per hour, I assume he can heat 0.1 cubic meters, which I believe is 100,000 cubic centimeters, by 30 degrees per hour, or 90 degrees in 20 minutes; heating water from a refrigerated temperature of about 10 degrees to the boiling point would be 90 degrees. If he can do this for 100,000 cubic cm in 20 minutes, that’s 5,000 cubic cm per minute. Assume an average pot of water is around 12 cm X 12 cm x 12 cm = 1728 cubic meters. That means he can bring roughly 3 pots of water per minute to a boiling point with this device. Or it could heat a bathtub with 1m X 0.3m X 0.2m = 0.06 cubic meters of water by 50 degrees in an hour, or 25 degrees (ie, from 12 degrees C to a comfortable 37 degrees C) in half an hour. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am trying to get a sense as to how much energy this thing produces and whether it could be used for something like providing heat and hot water for a home, for instance. Any thoughts?

  15. Ben

    October 7, 2011 at 12:10 am

    “Your time is limited, so don’t waste it living someone else’s life. Don’t be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people’s thinking. Don’t let the noise of others’ opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition.”

    Steve Jobs

  16. daniel maris

    October 7, 2011 at 12:41 am

    Very frustrating! We need more information on a consistent basis…

    Whether he’s a potential Nobel Prize winner or a scammer, he’s useless at media management! LOL

  17. Sojourner Soo

    October 7, 2011 at 1:02 am

    For the skeptics. Jed Rothwell is kicking butt over at vortex. Must reads at this site for Mary and others.

    • maryyugo

      October 7, 2011 at 1:59 am

      “For the skeptics. Jed Rothwell is kicking butt over at vortex. Must reads at this site for Mary and others.”

      Jed is smart and has experience but unfortunately, he badly wants this to be real so he’s being gullible in a lot of his assertions IMO.

      See for example my post below about screwing around with the output temperature measuring device. He tried to counter that argument on the Vortex list but his post made it clear he misunderstood it. He defeated an argument that nobody made and ignored the real issue. Too bad.

  18. maryyugo

    October 7, 2011 at 1:51 am

    One of the things I wrote in a previous message string is that I (and most people) would be unable to think of all the possible ways for Rossi to cheat. Here is one, from the Vortex email list, that I’d never think of! Perhaps the output temperature sensor has a tiny local heater wound into it. It would then be easy to feed it a small amount of current through the measurement equipment and to “boost” the apparent output temperature. The heater could be clandestinely turned off during calibration and during startup when it would not be needed. That could even be done with a wireless remote control in the experimenter’s pocket or on his wrist watch. This is typical of stuff most people wouldn’t think of as well as support for the idea that proof that the E-cat is real can only come from INDEPENDENT testing not involving Rossi beyond his providing the E-cat and ONLY the E-cat. All measurement devices must be provided by independent and impartial third parties for example a standards laboratory staff.

    With thanks to Rich Murray… here:

    • H. Visscher

      October 7, 2011 at 2:02 am

      Oh Mary, I think it is time for you to sleep and keep on dreaming…

      • maryyugo

        October 7, 2011 at 2:09 am

        Rossi is already a three time loser in terms of his run ins with the law involving mostly technology. Why not a fourth?

        • MT

          October 7, 2011 at 2:17 am

          What would be the point of him doing tricks like that? For what purpose? It doesn’t make any sense. It’s not as though he’s seeking funding for development; he’s about to deliver a 1MW plant to a client, and that will either work or not work, which is what really matters, so why would he cheat on a test like this, knowing that he would get caught soon anyway and lose all credibility?

          • maryyugo

            October 7, 2011 at 2:22 am

            Like all the ways to cheat, we can’t know all the ways to make money. Maybe Rossi has a rich but not technologically capable investor who wanted to see such a test and who assumed it was impossible to fool the testers just like most of the people here do. Who knows? We can guess without limit and maybe not figure it out.

            How about this: why doesn’t Rossi just redo Levi’s excellent test but with proper documentation and controls thus proving the E-cat works without a doubt. It would have to be done entirely by members of a university physics department who had no connection to Rossi and they would have to provide everything except the E-cat. That would be easy. Levi reported up to 130 kW of power! That’s trivially simple to measure accurately. It would be spectacular. Why not do this instead of increasingly complicated and difficult to understand and evaluate “demos” all of which directly involve Rossi and Rossi’s gear other than the E-cat?

            Why oh why?

          • MT

            October 7, 2011 at 2:47 am

            I agree that of course it would have been much better if the E-cat had been tested independently instead of basically being “tested” by Rossi with others watching, but perhaps there would have been costs associated with that, and apparently Rossi is out of money (there were reports that he had to sell his house to raise money to finish development of the 1MW reactor that he won’t get paid for until it is delivered and works). The argument for believing Rossi is basically that it seems as though he shouldn’t have much incentive to lie given that he would get caught soon if he were lying, and then his career would be over and he would get sued by anyone who may have invested with him.

    • H. Visscher

      October 7, 2011 at 3:30 am

      Who can be independent an impartial in this case? There is a lot at stake here. If this device works as advertised huge power shifts in the world will occur. I think it will be more likely that measuring devices of the so called independent and impartial testers will be tempered with rather then Rossi’s own instruments….

  19. Sojourner Soo

    October 7, 2011 at 1:59 am

    Mary: Rothwell has already debunked that “hidden heater” theory resoundingly.

    “Re: [Vo]:No, it would not be a “small” local heater, and no you cannot “hide” it

    Jed Rothwell
    Thu, 06 Oct 2011 15:12:34 -0700

    I forgot to add, yes, this is pathological nonsense.

    Murray has leaped to conclusions, as he often does. He has made an assertion without stopping to think for a moment, and without considering whether it might be plausible or even possible. He claimed that an electric heater of 3 to 5 kW is “small” and can be “hidden.” Anyone who has so much as glanced at an electric heater of this capacity will know his assertion is preposterous.

    This is not “pragmatic,” which is defined as: “Dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.” A sliver of practical knowledge is enough to confirm that a 3 kW heater is a large object that cannot be hidden, and is instantly recognizable.

    This is not skeptical. A skeptic always questions his own assumptions first and tries to discover whether they are physically possible.

    As I predicted, the pathological skeptics will continue as before, drifting ever farther into cloud cuckoo land, making up ever more convoluted fairytales that anyone can refute in a few minutes. This never bothers people like Murray, because — we must grant — he has a fertile imagination unfettered by practical knowledge or the constraints of reality, and he can make up new fairytales even faster than anyone can refute them. He will grasp at any straw to avoid facing the truth.

    – Jed”

    • Sojourner Soo

      October 7, 2011 at 2:03 am

      This was my original link, but I liked it so much, I thought I would reprint the whole thing for others to see. Pathological skeptics, indeed. LOL.

      • maryyugo

        October 7, 2011 at 2:07 am

        “Pathological skeptics, indeed. LOL.”

        Sorry, no. Not a bit. It was a brilliant insight of something very possible. It’s a real contribution by Murray. I wish I’d thought of it but I didn’t. And there are without a doubt, countless other ways to cheat.

        • Ben

          October 7, 2011 at 2:43 am

          No, it was a desperate stab at something extremely unlikely. The reason that you people didn’t think of other possibilities for a scam is because of the obsession with steam for 6 months. Quite frankly Rossi deserves to be a rich man soley on the basis of sending such a large number of pseudoskeptics and quasi-intellectuals on that wild goose chase. I have seen a dozen or so high-grossing films that weren’t as entertaining as watching that spectacle.

          • You are right

            October 7, 2011 at 2:59 am

            You got that right. But I really blame Rossi for this. He knew how these kinds of chronic skeptics think, and he persists in playing testing-games.

            I’m sure he has had a lot of fun making some of the skeptics look batty, BUT there comes a time when you need to end the fun-and-games and join the real world.

            In January, it will be one year that he has now delayed his obviously working discovery. He will have a lot to answer for 100 years from now when the final history books are written.

            Andrea Rossi, the man who HINDERED the most important discovery in history.

          • Stephen

            October 7, 2011 at 6:46 am

            The view from the other side is every bit as entertaining. Smile.

        • Allan Kiik

          October 7, 2011 at 9:37 am

          Rothwell did not understand the proposed cheat – there’s no need for hidden 3-5kW heater, if you want to cheat with platinum thermistors, only thing you need is “adjustable” current through sensor! Normally these thing are driven by constant current generators, as precise and constant as possible (and even this small current, typically less than 1 mA, have measurable heating effect), but if you want to cheat, it’s really even simpler than adding “tiny heater”, there’s no need for one, the platinum sensor will do it (if you “adjust” the current through it).

          So it really makes sense what maryyugo is saying – all the instrumentation should be provided by others.

    • maryyugo

      October 7, 2011 at 2:04 am

      Yes but jed misunderstood the argument. He says you couldn’t hide a powerful heater in the output part of the E-cat and that is correct. But that was not what the writer of the post was claiming.

      What was said, which Jed totally missed, was that the measuring sensor could be spoofed with a TINY and not very strong heater. Even easier, the measuring instrument could be deliberately made to read higher than it should when so instructed from a wireless remote control in someone’s pocket or wristwatch or walkie talkie or whatever. Jed never addressed that. It’s a wonderful example of the sort of things I (and most people) would never think of. There are probably dozens of ways to cheat that I would not think of — it’s not my expertise. You’d have better luck (but not perfect performance) with a magician.

      That sort of consideration is exactly why Rossi should have nothing to do with any of the equipment supplying start up power to the E-cat, pumping the coolant, or measuring the output. ALL of that should be third party and independent and unbiased. The only thing Rossi should supply for testing should be the bare E-cat. No accessories and no measuring gear should come from Rossi– too easy to put something in them that fakes the result. I am not saying he did this. I am saying it is very possible.

  20. Ben

    October 7, 2011 at 2:13 am

    Yup. Jed nailed it. Just substitute “Murray” with a similar name or any name of the other chicken littles running loose around here.

    • maryyugo

      October 7, 2011 at 2:16 am

      No Jed totally missed it. Nobody said there was a large powerful (3kW) heater in the E-cat. What Murray said was that the temperature sensor could have been altered with a TINY almost INVISIBLE heater so as to change (increase) the temperature at the sensor only. That requires very little power and the controls for it could be both remote and hidden. It’s a very cleverly thought out possibility. There’s no evidence for it but it’s certainly possible and Jed totally misunderstood Murray. Read the whole string again and it should become clear. Even to you.

      • Ben

        October 7, 2011 at 2:31 am

        There is no evidence for it but its possible but, on the other hand there is evidence for LENR but it is impossible. I think that is what you really mean. How about this, it could be a TINY INVISIBLE FLYING PINK UNICORN……but it’s not!

  21. LCD

    October 7, 2011 at 2:15 am
    so at 5.024E7 J/80kg we get 0.628MJ/kg
    That falls somewhat suspiciously between li-ion battery and an alkaline battery
    If the testers can reduce the effective weight to say 80 grams then
    628 MJ/kg
    Falls about 5 times higher than compressed hydrogen but way way lower than Uranium
    For it to be like Uranium then the active mass must be less than 8mg

    If we assume there is like 5g of Nickel as the active core material then its
    like 10 GJ/kg that’s still nuclear and worthy of front page news but you’d have to convince me that’s the real active core weight.

    • LCD

      October 7, 2011 at 2:28 am
      so at 3.5kW*4hours -> 5.024E7 J/80kg we get 0.628MJ/kg
      That falls somewhat suspiciously between li-ion battery and an alkaline battery
      If the testers can reduce the effective weight to say 80 grams then
      628 MJ/kg
      Falls about 5 times higher than compressed hydrogen but way way lower than Uranium
      For it to be like Uranium then the active mass must be less than 8mg

      If we assume there is like 5g of Nickel as the active core material then its
      like 10 GJ/kg that’s still nuclear and worthy of front page news but you’d have to convince me that’s the real active core weight.

  22. daniel maris

    October 7, 2011 at 2:15 am

    Maryyugo –

    Hank Mills at PESN is reporting the test as a success and indicating that the witnesses found the unit extremely hot to the touch (too hot to keep the hand there). That doesn’t seem to accord with a heated instrument cheat.

    • maryyugo

      October 7, 2011 at 2:17 am


      Mills is an idiot who believes in every imaginable scammy free energy fraud. “Hot to the touch” means nothing for a device which contains a large powerful heater which runs off the mains.

      Jeez, people are grasping at straws here and it’s creating much too much for me to counter piece by piece. Let’s see what game is played tomorrow. I can wait, can’t you? Or would you all like to keep yumpin’ to “concussions”?

      • Ben

        October 7, 2011 at 2:33 am

        Tiny, almost invisible heater is not grasping at straws? Yugo, you crack me up.

      • daniel maris

        October 7, 2011 at 7:46 am

        OK – point taken(excepting I don’t know Mr. Mills so no reason to believe what you say is true), but you were commenting about how simple a fraud could be (doctor the measuring instrument) so if “hot to the touch” comes in then that is another layer to the fraud, not as simple as you were suggesting.

        Obviously, I’m holding back final judgment until he’s selling them freely on the open market. But in the interim I would suggest it’s a very odd sort of scam if scam it is (requiring a hell of a lot of complex effort). And even odder if he’s relocating the scam to the USA where they can send you away for a v. long time for such illegal acts.

      • steve

        October 8, 2011 at 2:05 pm

        what happened to the input energy?
        why was more energy put into the system than out?
        i am reading 80 per cent efficiency (energy in vs out)
        i am seeing (according to nytechnik) 2.4 hours of electrical input with no
        difference of Tin vs Tout
        what am i missing?

    • MT

      October 7, 2011 at 2:27 am

      The real question is how much energy is it producing. It doesn’t take a lot of heat to make something too hot to touch, especially something small. I can heat a coffee pot on the stove for a minute or two and it will be too hot to touch. I believe the answer as to how much energy is produced is provided above: enough to heat 2.4 cubic meters of water by 5 degrees over 4 hours. But how much is that relative to the amount of heat that an average-sized house needs during the winter? And how much electricity could be produced by that, relative to the amount that an average house uses? It seems to me that there is no question that LENR – and this device – produce energy, the questions are a) how much energy, and b) can the energy be produced at a consistent, reliable rate over a long, extended time period, meaning months, not hours.

      • LCD

        October 7, 2011 at 2:35 am

        No MT the real important question at this time is the energy density then you can determine what kind of thing would have faked it. Of course the energy density is not the real energy density because the number gets higher the longer it’s on but anyway that’s all we have.
        The thing to look for tomorrow is what the testers determine is the minimum weight of the reactor core. Then you can make some interesting comments. For example if they can reduce the 80kg to really only 80 grams that mattered then we can say the thing has an energy density higher than our best fuels.

      • Peter Roe

        October 7, 2011 at 8:28 am

        @MT “But how much is that relative to the amount of heat that an average-sized house needs during the winter?”

        To put it into perspective (and leaving aside any considerations of tiny invisible heaters or super-efficient chemical heating packs) a typical small wall-hung gas boiler might be rated at about 12-14kW equivalent. A big floor standing solid fuel or oil burning boiler might potentially output up to about half as much again.

        Of course in practice, central heating boilers are thermostatically controlled and run at lower median outputs. With reasonable insulation an older house might need somewhere in the ballpark of 5-8 kW average input to stay warm with an outside temp of a few degrees below zero, unless the occupants want to run around in their underwear of course.

        • jcragris

          October 7, 2011 at 11:25 am

          The equation to have this is very simple :
          If Delta T in degree centigrade, the energy (J) in Joule to heat 1KG of water from 1 degree is 4180J.
          Delta T = Delta T OUT – Delta T IN
          If Delta T = 5° J=5*4180=20900J
          To obtain Watt/h you must divide J by 3600 Seconds
          W=J/3600=5,86 W/h per KG
          If you have 0,600 cubic meter or 600 Kg of water to heat In one hour:
          600*5,86W/h=3,516 KW/h
          This is the energy from the E-Cat in the last Test.
          It’s not depend of the overall weight (80KG) from E-CAT , but only of the emitted heat of the core reactor.
          For central heating in a house (Hypothesis):
          Delta in = 20° Delta OUT =70°  Delta T=50°
          To heat 1000 liters of water in your secondary circuit in 1 hour at 70 ° you must have a power of:
          W=((50°*4180J)/3600s)*1000Kg=58,6 KW/h
          In 2 hours  58,6/2=29,3
          In 4 hours  58,6/4=14,65 KW/h
          You can see that with E-cat with a capacity of 14.5KW / h you can have your 1000 liters of water in your radiator to be heated to 70 ° (without considering the heat lost in these radiators to heat your home and recirculation water) in 4 hours

  23. I thought

    October 7, 2011 at 2:25 am

    I really hope, next time, that Rossi can find some people who are willing to stay at the test site longer than a few hours. I thought cold fusion people were supposed to be dedicated to science?

    No wonder Rossi is having such a hard time coming up with a demonstration to make everyone happy. If these people can’t be bothered to stick around long enough. . . . .

  24. Rossi Spying?

    October 7, 2011 at 2:33 am

    Didn’t I read, in one of the posts on Andreas Rossi’s website, that he had various surveillance devices in his offices? It was in relation to the Krivit visit. I thought Rossi said he had audio and video of everything that went on in his offices. Was the October 6 test also so recorded? Could Rossi release this information? It would be interesting to hear the private comments of those at the test.

  25. Anthony

    October 7, 2011 at 2:35 am

    I may be jumping the gun a little here but you don’t need a big heater imbedded with a thermocouple to bump it up 5 deg. Unless the equipment was new out of the box or supplied by independent people, anything can be done to fake a 5 deg rise. Was anyone able to grab the pipes and feel a 5 deg difference. Why not slow the flow rate to get 20 deg. just to show that relationship. How about using an infrared camera? Did anyone bring one? I want to believe but there are just too many ways to dup someone if you have complete control of all of the parameters. Hopefully the report has enough detail but I’m with Mayyugo on this one that some sort of independent verification needs to be done. I’m getting more skeptical as time goes on. I could reproduce the same results demonstrated so far and I’m more likely to doubt these unless a third party is able to verify the setup at least. Just because I don’t know how Chris Angel does his tricks do I believe that he can float in the air and pass objects through glass but it sure looks like he can.

  26. Jim Cramer

    October 7, 2011 at 3:07 am

    I recommend that we wait for the publicly tendered results before drawing conclusions. All of you have made solid conclusions before the data is released.

    My gut tells me that there is a reaction beyond chemical here but that doesn’t mean I’m right.


    Jim Cramer

  27. LCD

    October 7, 2011 at 4:29 am

    There are a few facts I think many people are not aware about the E-Cat module that is being tested. I think it is important that these facts are made known.

    1) Rossi has stated that the rated output for one of these reactors is 27 kilowatts, but for safety purposes during testing the devices will be throttled down to 1/3rd of that. The reason for this is that in self sustain mode E-Cats can “run away.” This means that the output can become unstable, and can increase higher and higher. In torture tests, the units can explode.

    2) Due to the fact that there is a primary circuit that supplies heat to a secondary circuit through a heat exchanger, there will be some loss in efficiency. The efficiency of transferring the output energy from the E-Cat to the secondary circuit may be very low. So whatever the output is, the “real” output would be higher.

    3)The current E-Cat model being tested is not the “Fat Cat” E-Cat. The “Fat Cat” reactor is the model that has not yet been revealed, that will be attached to the output of the one megawatt plant, and will boost the output to one megawatt.

    4) The 52 modules that compose the one megawatt plant will not be the only modules used. An auxiliary unit will be attached to the output, to boost the output to one megawatt.

    — Nocompromises 17:38, 6 October 2011 (PDT)

    • daniel maris

      October 7, 2011 at 7:38 am

      Thank you for that v. helpful information.

    • Peter Roe

      October 7, 2011 at 8:48 am

      “The efficiency of transferring the output energy from the E-Cat to the secondary circuit may be very low.”

      No, the HE losses will be small. The relatively high secondary cct flow rate of 10 l/m ensures maximum heat extraction by complete condensation of output steam. If it didn’t then uncondensed steam in the recirculating primary cct would have to have been vented (not observed). As there are no losses other than some slight air convection from pipework etc, efficiency of heat transfer will approach 100% and the measured output at the secondary cct will accurately reflect the real output from the core(s).

      Re. your points 3) and 4), which appear to be the same thing, are you sure about this? I had understood that the multi-core module tested was the ‘fat cat’ design, as opposed to the original table-top, single-core ‘e-cat’. Where are you getting info on the mysterious new unit to be included in the 1MW plant please?

      • Peter Roe

        October 7, 2011 at 2:08 pm

        Update to my earlier comment. I have now seen Mat Lewans film report and it is clear that my assumption that the primary was a recirculating system was wrong. LCD is therefore right to say that losses could have been significant. Without a delta T measurement for feedwater in vs. condensed wastewater out, there is no way to tell the size of any such losses unfortunately.

        • LCD

          October 7, 2011 at 6:49 pm

          Sorry I posted that just before bed, BUT THATS NOT ME, I just took it from PENS. Some dude named nocompromise posted it I suppose.

          Peter I don’t have a clue what 4 is.

  28. Ransompw

    October 7, 2011 at 4:39 am

    It was inevitable, one issue is addressed and others are raised by those who have a preconceived opinion about the viability of the ecat. Krivit was right 10 for 10 and it will likely need to be 20 or 30 before this is finally settled.

    The difference now however is that fraud is the code word because that is what is left to maryyugo, thicket and popeye and once you start looking for fraud the devious mind can think of anything. So I don’t think Rossi can convince the skeptics without giving his ecat to them for testing and allowing them to steal his idea and whatever else the skeptic frauds would do to cheat him. You see why should he think better of them then they do of him. Because they say how honest they are? Really.

    • Anthony

      October 7, 2011 at 5:51 am

      The devious mind is the one committing fraud, not the ones weary and looking for it. Sure people would like to know the secret but who here has requested or even demanded it? Asking for third party verification is in no way asking for the secret. Repeated many times in many ways already.

      The comments here are like a pendulum. Once someone pushes it too far in the “it works direction” someone else has to go in the opposite direction with another comment so that the average is where we should stand and wait. Hopeful and awaiting proof. So far many actions don’t make sense. We outsiders (skeptics) are puzzled, asking questions and offering suggestions but the puzzle gets more complicated.

      • Ransompw

        October 7, 2011 at 12:18 pm

        I think those suspecting fraud have every bit as devious a mind as those committing fraud, certainly very creative imaginations. And I disagree so called independent testing would satisfy all the skeptics. That’s the problem Rossi is clipping skeptics off one at a time and there will be some who will never believe until the world finally just ignores them. Except for a longer test and the roll out of an actual product I am no longer one of them. If the report of yesterday is thorough I am satisfied.

  29. Joe Shea

    October 7, 2011 at 5:47 am

    extensive Oct. 6 coverage at

  30. georgehants

    October 7, 2011 at 7:08 am

    Well I still have not opened the Champagne but a bottle of red wine, things look good at the moment, a bit more information and input from the techies and we should be home.
    Hopefully today will add positively to the situation.

  31. georgehants

    October 7, 2011 at 8:12 am

    Will the scientists involved in the test be competent enough to say “I” can say the test was a success or failure or will they need to get permission from the establishment, their peers, experts etc. (none of whom where there) before commenting.

  32. Haldor

    October 7, 2011 at 8:27 am

    It ran for 4 hours in self-sustain mode, apparently from 15.00 tot 19.00h.
    Does anybody know how long it did run before it went into self-sustain?

    • Sebastian

      October 7, 2011 at 8:58 am

      Passerini’s first tweet “Ready to start!” was posted at around 10am yesterday.
      Since Zreick commented at 12am (when he arrived) that there were already things going on I assume that Passerine meant to say that e-cat operations started at 10am.
      Assuming a startup time of 20 minutes, the e-cat would have run in normal mode for over 4 hours until having been put in self-sustained mode an 2:58pm.
      Only a full report will tell the truth, though.

      • Renzo

        October 7, 2011 at 9:59 am

        At 12:25 Passerini wrote that they had just finished to fill the primary circuit and the reaction had not started yet, it seems the startup time was one hour and half between 12:30 and 14pm

        • Sebastian

          October 7, 2011 at 10:06 am

          Interesting, thank you.

  33. georgehants

    October 7, 2011 at 9:51 am

    Andrea Rossi
    October 7th, 2011 at 3:49 AM


  34. Renzo

    October 7, 2011 at 11:48 am

    Passerini has just written that the first report will be published at 2pm on NyTeknyk, he also added that the reactor had 3 cores but only one was activated during the test!

  35. charles sistovaris

    October 7, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    “I’m convinced that this works, but there is still room for more measurements”, Pettersson told Ny Teknik after the test.

    How frustrating, back to point 0.
    NyTecknik says it “enhances proof” : a very nice way to point out we still don’t have it.

    I am starting to think that if this man has really discovered a way of “saving humanity” (i don’t think I’m exaggerating here) it is a crime not making it public. What is he afraid of ? becoming a billionaire instead of trillionaire ? Come on Rossi, it is time to change strategy.

    • Sojourner Soo

      October 7, 2011 at 2:34 pm

      What part of “I’m convinced that it works” do you not understand?

      • charles sistovaris

        October 7, 2011 at 3:38 pm

        If a girl says : “I love you, BUT there is still room for more measurements” I understand that she’s saying the opposite 🙂

      • steve

        October 10, 2011 at 5:43 am

        what does it matter? how could rossi supply MILLIONS of ecats even if he built only
        the cores?
        eventually he would have to license his tech to factories to be able to sell MILLIONS of ecats! to me if the ecat works or not is superficial HOW is one guy able to make MILLIONS of ecat units WITHOUT REVEALING TO SOMEBODY HOW HE MAKES IT?
        nonsense its all nonsense.
        this aint just some (“browns gas generator” ie lee) that you hook up to your
        this is supposed to be a commercial unit that you can buy from rossi
        that you HIT the ON button and it starts and works!
        do you get that?
        i bought a rossi unit and i pushed the “ON” switch and away it runs!

  36. steve

    October 8, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    one more thing a PSEUDOSKEPTIC would be a person who declares himself herself to be
    a skeptic and posts as such but is really a believer who makes wildly inaccurate
    skeptic claims so as to be ridiculed by believers (see SHILL)
    sadly its getting more popular as these scams are getting more money!
    and posting on more forums as both (pseudo skeptic vs believer)
    to gain even more money books etc

    old time hoaxing snake oil etc brought to the internet!
    you can not just sit back and watch football games you have to pay attention
    to what politicians say!
    and to everything else!

  37. steve

    October 9, 2011 at 1:37 pm

    why is such an astounding device (if it works) tested with such cheap chinese uncalibrated instruments AND you said it

    The water was just left going down the drain?

    this is supposed to be a commercial ready to be sold device
    is rossi going to clone himself so he can personally run every
    device he sells??
    all i got to say is “sumpin aint right”
    look at photos of his 1 mw device in the shipping container
    where is the computer controls? look at the sloppy insulation job
    would you buy that?

  38. steve

    October 11, 2011 at 12:11 am

    this is supposed to be a module from rossi 1 mw COMMERCIAL (to be sold) unit
    it is a steam gernerator with a flimsy maybe.06 thick sheetmetal plate bolted to it
    no pressure relief valve.
    it just looks shoddy
    would a steam generator like that pass any kind of building code?
    for example (nj i think)
    i hope not
    this deal about whether it works or not is not the only issue.
    steam is a powerful force.