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Steven Krivit’s long expected report is here. It is very long so I will reserve comment until I can digest it. Enjoy your Sunday!
July 31, 2011 at 3:46 pm
So…….we should hear back from you by October then?
July 31, 2011 at 7:33 pm
I read most of it. So it is massive widespread self deception or its real. I find both options hard to believe.
Guess we’ll see.
July 31, 2011 at 8:26 pm
If you find those options hard to believe, you must have found Steorn’s story positively incredible. By the way, there is another option: fraud which is something Mr. Rossi has been accused of before. I say accused of because far as I know there was no lasting or credible conviction. But it is still an option. Some people thought Steorn was self-delusion until the deceptive and evasive behavior went beyond that possibility. Mr. Rossi, so far, has been very evasive. But we will see what happens in September or October.
August 1, 2011 at 6:23 am
I spent most of the day reading through the appendices. There is a logical argument fallacy in Krivit’s analysis sometimes called “Argument by Selective Reading”. That is, if Rossi makes an assertion and provides strong and weak arguments to support his assertion; one does not defeat Rossi’s assertion by defeating the weak arguments. In this case the weak arguments are the steam measurements. The strong argument is the Feb 11 demo where water was only heated and not turned to steam.
Krivit successfully casts considerable doubt on the steam measurements. However, Krvit’s stab at discrediting the Feb 11 demo fails. His argument that the output temp measurement location is faulty fails to convince.
So we are right back where we were without the 37-appendix article–still waiting for more convincing demonstrations–still waiting for the chance to buy an ecat. And, like any other product, if it doesn’t work as advertised it goes back to the store.
August 1, 2011 at 6:49 pm
Jay I think we’re on the same page there although was Krivit saying that Levi basically poopood his own Feb 11 data?
What about the copper and the gamma rays? Celani never reported gamma rays in his Ni-H experiments and he was the one who measured them on Rossis. If the energy calculations are wrong then the copper must have been planted and the gamma rays were faked. Right?
If Rossi’s a scammer and he manages to make money out of this, then I will be impressed.
August 2, 2011 at 2:03 am
>>The strong argument is the Feb 11 demo where water was only heated and not turned to steam.<<
Unfortunately it's not. Krivit asked Levi to provide a log of the actual data for review and Levi couldn't or didn't for whatever reason and Rossi, as a result of that request, called Krivit a "snake" and a "clown" in his blog.
That experiment would take a day to repeat and to do properly and in public and Rossi hasn't done. That's not confidence inspiring.
August 1, 2011 at 8:29 pm
To prove something you do not need to write such a long text.
The idea behind is only to descredit Rossi.
August 3, 2011 at 4:37 pm
Exactly, it is not an example of “journalism” but rather an example of rhetoric. And he desperately uses all three forms, ethos, pathos and logos to try and press his point. It really makes you wonder what his motivation is?
August 2, 2011 at 1:12 am
I’m more than content to wait until the end of October to find out how the physicists and global journalists react to the Rossi E-Cat and the Defkalion plant. We’ll all know in a few months, in any event, but I’m betting it works. Silly me. I trust Nobel laureates and Focardi before Krivit and his need to be contrary. Don’t get me wrong, please: Skepticism is understandable, but the Krivit fellow and his online groupies all doth protest too much.
August 2, 2011 at 2:05 am
Be careful about trusting Nobel laureates. They may have had a moment of brilliance and then become strange. Dr. Josephson, in particular, supports total nonsense like homeopathy. I have no idea why. I suppose you’d have to ask him. Homeopathy is almost as easy to test as Rossi’s E-cat. And homeopathic specialists refuse to do the tests.
August 2, 2011 at 3:19 pm
Interesting comment from Daniele Passerini’s blog:
“Levi will not read the report # 3 of Krivit, there is no reason why not. At this time the new report Galantini, I remember with pride to have been solicited by the passion of their readers of this blog, and already in the hands – as Smith would say – a very, very high level world class scientists (I am a witness) and even a few true journalist. Soon they themselves make clear why the report # 3 is one of the worst examples of science journalism of all time: only a “dossier” artfully constructed to discredit Smith and all those involved in the development of E-Cat.
Tonight, in fact I had the great and undeserved opportunity to become acquainted with some exchanges of emails that have already all the air can become a piece of history. In a few months I predict a peak in the world, not oil, but requests for psychotherapy by skeptics, deniers, scientist, following the collapse of their granite certainties. I rub my hands.”
August 2, 2011 at 4:59 pm
This makes no sense at all. What could Krivit possibly accomplish by smearing Rossi’s reputation if Rossi is likely to deliver a working independently tested megawatt plant in a couple of months? That would make absolutely no sense.
Instead of crying about skeptics and deniers, Daniele should ask Mr. Rossi to conduct in public some independent test that would prove the E-cat is real… if it is.
August 2, 2011 at 6:26 pm
MY: “Instead of crying about skeptics and deniers, Daniele should ask Mr. Rossi to conduct in public some independent test that would prove the E-cat is real… if it is.”
He is. In October. 1Mw I understand. Do try and keep up.
August 3, 2011 at 6:32 pm
>>He is. In October. 1Mw I understand. Do try and keep up.<<
Actually it is you who should keep up. Rossi said he will "show" a megawatt plant in October and will deliver it for testing to Defkalion, the client. Rossi NEVER said there would be independent testing. Defkalion is run by Rossi associates. I would not trust them to test anything made by Rossi. As for the supposed contract with University of Bologna, it has been signed but not funded and nothing will be done until it is funded. Krivit has contacts at the university and he called them. As of last week, Rossi has given them absolutely nothing on the $500,000 pledge so far.
Just as important, there is no need whatever for a megawatt plant. All Rossi needs to do is to produce a single working E-cat for a major university or test lab, call the press and the media, and have them test it independently by their providing all the power in and out measurement on their site and with their wall socket and metering gear. Rossi could hang out during the experiment to be sure they didn't molest the poor helpless kitty by taking apart his reaction cell or X-raying it or doing other outrageous things on its person.
Displaying a megawatt plant humming away is meaningless unless someone not connected with Rossi or Defkalion tests it properly. Rossi isn't even promising that!
Rossi instead prefers to insult the critics, even very temperate ones like Krivit who actually took the trouble to go to Italy (when Rossi claims to have E-cats in Florida where he lives but won't show them there). And Rossi gave him a third rate demo which proved nothing, tended to disprove the claims, and then Rossi called Krivit literally a clown and a snake on his blog because Krivit had the temerity to ask Levi to show actual data and detailed calculations for the all liquid experiment he reported.
This whole affair smells more and more like Steorn, Carl Tilley and Dennis Lee — try Google for details on those folks.
August 2, 2011 at 6:35 pm
He will be, in October.
Krivit is just saying no there has been no public solid evidence for the ecat claims. He knows nothing about private trials or evidence. Nobody in the gen public does. But the four pulic demos are being treated as evidence of failure and that does bug me to some extent. Although Rossi should have seen it coming. And he may have. Reason he doesn’t want any more public demonstrations until the 1MW plant, is because he believes the skeptics will always find another reason to doubt. And he’s probably right, we would with a blackbox test. Until people everywhere can MAKE the ECAT from scratch it will probably be the case. I see both sides.
August 3, 2011 at 6:35 pm
>>Reason he doesn’t want any more public demonstrations until the 1MW plant, is because he believes the skeptics will always find another reason to doubt. <<
So far, all the evidence is for the skeptics. Rossi could provide a simple test that nobody could refute. That's been posted many places. It's completely accurate. The tests are neither expensive nor unduly difficult or time consuming. Rossi doesn't do it, in my opinion, because he can't.
August 2, 2011 at 7:13 pm
YOU: “This makes no sense at all. What could Krivit possibly accomplish by smearing Rossi’s reputation if Rossi is likely to deliver a working independently tested megawatt plant in a couple of months”?
The same thing that you hope to accomplish by trolling every e-Cat web site and posting the same sort of dribble over and over again. I am not sure what the motivation of either you or Mr. Krivit is but you are right about one thing, it makes absolutely no sense.
August 3, 2011 at 6:39 pm
What I am trying to accomplish is simple: to point out that investors need to exercise due diligence before giving Rossi or Defkalion any money whatever based on the claims and demos thus far. And nobody can base investments on electric power generation methods on what we know so far.
That’s not trivial. In the US, a company called Sniffex bamboozled people into thinking a dowsing rod was an explosive detector. Without proper testing, small investors going on stupid demos and bad press releases, invested 6 million dollars and lost all of it. Eventually, the explosive detector was debunked for the fraud it was and the perpetrators were punished. The company disappeared in the US but goes on in Europe and the middle East. Worse yet, devices like Sniffex which detect nothing, are use to “find” explosives and people have died as a result– probably more than a dozen so far, maybe way more.
Frauds aren’t trivial. I do not not know whether Mr. Rossi and Defkalion’s claims are a fraud. But their lack of providing proper testing and proof certainly makes that a strong possibility because proof is easy to come by in this case– easy and cheap– and they won’t do it.
August 3, 2011 at 10:18 pm
I thought the purpose of the October demonstration is to provide proof. I’m not sure why they have to do it earlier for you or Krivit or anyone else. Why not wait till October before getting the rope out.
As for Krivit, just read his earlier blogs the last two years and you will get a sense of his motive. He of the it’s not “Cold Fusion” it’s LENR nonsense and all the paranoid conspiracies he imagines and the Windom/Larson Theory which he seems certain is reality.
He will either turn out right or wrong. But just imagine, here is a guy who has spent years covering “Cold Fusion” and really believes there is something to it, notwithstanding its moniker. So if its real and Rossi proves it, then he just called its inventor a fraud, with obvious malice. He won’t ever interview Rossi or anyone else even close to the process. No mainstream media will touch him. The whole thing is comical. And that is Krivit based on my reading of the guy. He may turn out right but he’s demonstrated he’s really foolish.
August 2, 2011 at 10:06 pm
@ Maryugo: Nonetheless, I’m still content to wait until the end of October for the grand opening of the Defkalion plant. And, I think your effort to smear a Nobel laureate is rather telling. Get off the online blogs and go do something useful for a change. You people are more boring than you seem to realize.
August 3, 2011 at 6:49 pm
Smear a Nobel laureate? Professor Josephson smears himself but that’s not the topic of this forum so I won’t address it. Suffice it to say, even he is now asking for better tests of Mr. Rossi’s E-cat.
August 4, 2011 at 3:45 pm
You may have commandeered it for your own purpose, but this is not a “forum”, it is the comment section of a news site.
August 6, 2011 at 9:26 pm
Whatever this is, it’s not a news site. News sites are impartial. How about a fanboy site?
August 3, 2011 at 4:33 am
At this point I am quite certain that at the very least the Demo/Test for Matt Lewan from NYTeknik and and demo/show for Krivit’s visit were definitely “faked”…by which I mean, that NO reaction occured during those demonstrations, and so Rossi would turn up the heaters when Lewan would go to check on the hose outlet (it is quite obvious by the video breakdown in Krivits appendix) ,and in fact did nothing for Krivit which was why the steam was so weak for that demo.
So those two demo’s were a fake…but that doesn’t NECESSARILY mean that the ECAT is fake.
I think it is difficult for Rossi to get the reaction to begin..(thats the reason the first demo in January was delayed)
I think the reason there is so much controversy is that Rossi by his nature (and past) is just a rather slimy individual…and so he very well could have discovered this new reaction that does produce SOME energy but he miscalculated and thought he had more than he did..but by then it was too late…he had already stated certain things to the public and to retract them would have made him seem like he was lying about the whole thing…so he keeps up the charade…hoping that he WILL get more energy by october, and discover a way to make the reaction occur REGULARLY.
Rossi is a scammer (as his past shows over and over)
Focardi is old and retired, is somewhat of a FAILURE, and wanted to believe that ROSSI had proven his life’s work and theories correct so bad that he allowed himself to be used.
Levi….that’s a tpugh one but I think he might have been the CAUSE of the miscalculations and would be embarrassed and destroyed if at this point he were to say he made a mistake. Later Essen and Kullander reafirmed him with their mistakes and so he feels somewhat reassured.
Essen and Kulander…they assumed that Levi had thoroughly and critically done the initial analyses, and so they didn’t do the job they should when they later had their crack at it.
August 3, 2011 at 7:59 am
Not much reason here. Why are you in such a hurry to disparage? Wait and see if this turns into another Steorn, and reserve your negativity for then!
August 3, 2011 at 8:03 am
It is of note that whatever the E-cat is, is most probably not either Focardi or Rossi’s work entirely, or even mostly. It is most likely based on the work of Prof. Franceso Piantelli, with whom Focardi worked before Rossi. Piantelli gave up his work in frustration due to the negativity and narrow-mindedness of the scientific community and lack of funding. Even Krivit was impressed by Piantelli’s work. Focardi then took that knowledge to Rossi and he apparently improved upon it. It is also important to note than when Piantelli ceased his research, his cell reportedly produced 2-3 times the amount of energy input, so it is likely that Rossi started out there and even if he did not really make any real improvements, Rossi’s cell most likely produces 2-3 times input power (which even Krivit concedes is likely). He is claiming much more than that but, still yet, just x 2 of input is enough to make the device remarkable. Of course, Piantelli, seeing Rossi’s claimed success, has begun to work on this again and has started a competing company. There may be a legal fight for patent rights down the road if Rossi comes thru in October. If Rossi is running a scam from any angle, it is because he pirated Piantelli’s work, not because he just wants to pocket money from suckers.
August 3, 2011 at 12:41 pm
Rossi works with nickel powder, Piantelli works with rods.
now Piantelli is claiming to get 200 times input in the output.
Maybe Piantelli started working also with powder which, in principle,
increases porbability reaction. Piantelli knows how it works and is now rushing after Rossi’s result. This behaviour of Piantelli proves he acknowledges Rossi and Focardi’s work.
Krivit is just throwing some poison and is hoping this is not true because other wise, if true, he will be out of business.
August 3, 2011 at 2:13 pm
In the RaiNews24 documentary “The Magic of Mr. Rossi,” Piantelli states:
“Rossi’s idea is clearly described in the Focardi-Piantelli patent that dates back to 1998. The point is that since something similar already exists, then the patent will not be granted. This is what I think and this is what European examiners will think.”
So , regardless of rods versus powder, Piantelli thinks that the Focardi-Rossi work infringes on previous the Focardi-Piantelli patents. Since Focardi was obviously involved with both, it is not a stretch to think that there are more than just a few similarities. I have read of Piantelli stating that his work is different from Rossi’s but I do not the source of these statements and they clearly contradict statements he made just months ago.
Regardless, it looks like Piantelli has elected to challenge Rossi in the market place, not the courtroom. If he can produce a device that produces 200 times over input, then he really has no need to take it to court because I doubt that the e-Cat produces anywhere near that. Piantelli may also be content to let Rossi take the e-Cat to market and then sue him once it is a proven commodity. That would make more sense than suing over something that is unproven.
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