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eCat News

July 31, 2015

eCat News started as an effort to illuminate the extraordinary claims of Andrea Rossi. If true, the eCat would be one of the most important developments in modern history. Supported by a number of apparently credible scientists, the claims were worth a closer look. Credibility by association can only get you so far. Over time, for me, the socio-dynamics in play became the interesting factor in this story. eCatNews has served its purpose.  Fascinating as it is, there are more productive ways to use our time. With thousands of comments and a community absorbed by slowly unfolding events, I am reluctant to close the site. For that reason, I keep it open. Unless something happens to change the eCat landscape, posts here will be a very occasional thing. I am not into spectator sports – particularly slow-motion car crashes. I encourage you all to move on. Do something that matters.

Posted by on July 31, 2015. Filed under Uncategorized. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

901 Responses to eCat News

  1. Al Potenza

    August 25, 2015 at 5:51 pm

    Uhho… Rossi may have bamboozled the patent office– or actually, a couple of hapless patent examiners, not familiar with free energy frauds. Anyway, there is this, from Mats Lewan (a “usual suspect”) if it’s real. So far, no source attributed. At least, if true, a patent removes a lot of Rossi’s excuses for not showing the invention in public and for not allowing a truly “indipendent” test, not that the fan pippel know what that is!

    http://animpossibleinvention.com/2015/08/25/rossi-has-been-granted-us-patent-on-the-e-cat/#comment-2778

    And briefly, the thing about Celani is that he was wrong. IIRC, he claimed his wires perform much better than the equivocal and uncertain result obtained by MFPM.

    The most interesting about Celani wire experiments is that NOBODY has done the MOST OBVIOUS thing. This is to amplify the result by using more than one wire! How about ten wires? Twenty? Fifty? That would greatly improve the signal to noise ratio because ONE heater could heat them all with not much more power than needed for a single wire. Just think of the output then!

    I have suggested this to MFPM and have gotten gibberish for a reply.

  2. Juaqina Park

    August 25, 2015 at 6:31 pm

    I AM SO ANGRY I SPIT ON MY COMPUTER!!!

    Okay, I stayed away from the silly-cat story long enough to fix the hypertension. But NOW??? The United Stnakes Patent Office has granted a patent to Cold fuggin Fusion?? COLD FUSION IS A PSEUDOSCIENCE!

    There is not one real engineer left in the US Patent Office, obviously. It is just plain DISSAPOINTING. And DEPRESSING. Has real science been kidnapped by looser phony engineers?? If Joh Huizenga heard this he’d grab a cement block an jump in Mad Lake.

    Please, someone make the insanity STOP! http://bit.ly/1PQts42

  3. Bob

    August 25, 2015 at 8:10 pm

    Again call to arms! A patent to Rossi !?!?!

    You remaining 5 or 6 stalwarts to truth here on ECW.

    You must immediately call your congressmen, yes even Obama and have them fire every last patent clerk. They have gone mad! More than fire, they should be made an example of for they contradict your wisdom and all knowing insight. Insight that does not need to see the actual facts, just hearsay posts here on some minor website.

    They have now sided with Darden, Lewan, McKubre, Woodford’s Investment Group, all the evil and ignorant Lugano group, Parkomov and yes, even Rossi himself!

    His all powerful hypnosis and trickery continues to fool everyone but you remaining stalwarts. You can tell from a distance, your physic powers see far more from this web list than any on site tester who was there for 30 days. Far more than gullible Darden, who must have made his millions solely by unbelievable luck as he is so stupid to invest in Rossi. You surely know so much more than he. You cannot be fooled.

    You must never, ever open the door to even the slightest possibility that Rossi has something. You must show your righteous character by the insults and seething contempt for someone you have never met! Erupting the scathing vile based upon only what each other here writes, without any more proof than the very believers that you ridicule. What character! What mature men of deep understanding.

    Stay the course for the world’s sake! Act the indignant, sole holder of all knowledge! The world will surely pass away if Rossi is not dealt with in the most harsh of ways. Regardless if he is innocent or not! Regardless if LENR should be proven, it MUST never see the light of day as it goes against the laws you have stamped as gospel.

    Never admit the world is round….it is flat damit… anyone can look out their window and see it so! 🙂 Have a nice day! 🙂

    • Juaqina Park

      August 25, 2015 at 10:51 pm

      Bob you may not fully grasp the meaning of giving a patent to a pseudo-scientist. Next it will be N-rays, faster than light neutrinos, perpetual motion machines, cancer cures and hand washing before surgery.

      I made a mistake of reading the believer site Eecat Worlds and it actually helped me feel better. There are no real engineers over there but I did see some poignant comments. One from “Greenwin” had some helpful advice:

      “Key to overcoming catastrophizing is making a distinction between something being significantly unpleasant and it being a catastrophe.” https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-practice/201301/what-is-catastrophizing-cognitive-distortions

      I still think giving the Rossi Revolution a patent on anything accept a box of rocks is insane. But that’s probably a “cognitive distortion” like the article says. Maybe all us real engineers and scientists should take a himt. Rossi’s patent is a major defeat for real science but it’s not worth catastrophizing over.

      I’m going to calm down, wipe the chin, and keep those “fingers moving” like the boss says!

      • Lcd

        August 26, 2015 at 5:50 am

        Lol. Or Juaqina you could just be close minded and wrong.

        Everybody understands the concept of a patent. It must be replicated. Once it is then what are you going to say?

        Before you paint yourself into a corner wisely choose your words.

        • popeye

          August 26, 2015 at 6:20 am

          LCD wrote:

          Everybody understands the concept of a patent. It must be replicated. Once it is then what are you going to say?

          This patent makes no claims of LENR or cold fusion or high energy density, or anything nuclear, so even it were replicated, it would not represent vindication for the ecat or LENR.

          • Lcd

            August 29, 2015 at 7:24 am

            Yeah you go on believing that popeye. Now I know your just bitter.

          • popeye

            August 29, 2015 at 7:35 am

            Hey, LCD. Where are those millions of web sites selling kits you said would crop up 6 months after Lugano? We’re up to 10 months now, and I don’t even see one.

  4. freethinker

    August 25, 2015 at 8:30 pm

    😀 😀 😀

  5. Thomas Clarke

    August 25, 2015 at 8:39 pm

    “BTW, that was a fantastic rebuttal by the Swedish professors to the criticism of the Lugano report.
    Brilliant, concise, irrefutable data, any doubt about their professional expertise has been laid to rest forever.”

    JohnP above made this claim, with no evidence. I’d love the Lugano profs to respond to my criticism (which can be found on lenr-canr as a comment on their paper) . Either they agree with me or I can dissect their response and explain what they are still getting wrong.

    Please let me know if I’ve missed some comment?

    • Ivy Matt

      August 26, 2015 at 12:32 am

      I think what you missed was JohnP’s sarcasm. The rebuttal could not have been more concise. 😉

  6. Daniel Maris

    August 25, 2015 at 8:44 pm

    One moment the USPTO are honourable keepers of the gates of science…the next they are the traitorous scum – as soon as they come up with a decision you don’t like.

    This is clearly a plus for the credibility of Rossi’s claims. Only a partisan would deny that to be the case.

    • popeye

      February 10, 2016 at 9:24 am

      Maris wrote:

      One moment the USPTO are honourable keepers of the gates of science…the next they are the traitorous scum – as soon as they come up with a decision you don’t like.

      One moment the USPTO are traitorous scum who dismiss cold fusion patents out of hand, and the next they are unassailable — as soon as they come up with a decision you like.

      But it’s the skeptics that are consistent here, as usual. We’ve argued frequently that patents do not validate claims. They’re not even intended to. They’re only meant to protect them.

      This patent makes no claim of cold fusion or LENR or anything nuclear. It’s just another run-of-the-mill patent with unverified claims, except these aren’t even impressive.

      This is clearly a plus for the credibility of Rossi’s claims. Only a partisan would deny that to be the case.

      Actually, only a gullible fool would argue that a patent that does not even claim LENR or nuclear reactions adds to the credibility of Rossi’s claims of cold fusion or LENR in ecats.

      Rossi was careful to constrain his claims to chemical reactions, and low energy density, to avoid the automatic scrutiny that cold fusion and perpetual motion patents get. But he made it look superficially like an ecat so ignorant people who don’t actually read the patent *think* it’s about LENR.

  7. popeye

    August 25, 2015 at 10:27 pm

    Bob wrote:

    You remaining 5 or 6 stalwarts to truth here on ECW.

    This is ECN.

    You must immediately call your congressmen, yes even Obama and have them fire every last patent clerk. They have gone mad! More than fire, they should be made an example of for they contradict your wisdom and all knowing insight.

    Nonsense Bob. Rossi has not claimed cold fusion or LENR or anything nuclear at all. Just another run-of-the-mill patent with unverified claims, except these aren’t even impressive.

    Anyway, you true believers have been arguing until you’re blue in the face that the reason cold fusion has trouble getting patented is because the patent office is corrupt. Funny how when they do something you like, they’re unassaibable….

    They have now sided with Darden, Lewan, McKubre, Woodford’s Investment Group, all the evil and ignorant Lugano group, Parkomov and yes, even Rossi himself!

    Actually, no. At least not on LENR or cold fusion, because the patent claims neither.

    Sorry.

    His all powerful hypnosis and trickery continues to fool everyone but you remaining stalwarts.

    … and the rest of the world, except the inmates at e-cultworld

    Anyway, this patent does not claim LENR. It’s just meant to look like it might to people like you who are incapable of reading and understanding it.

    gullible Darden, who must have made his millions solely by unbelievable luck as he is so stupid to invest in Rossi.

    This may come as a surprise to you, but successful venture capitalists *do* sometimes invest in losers. More often than not in fact. You seem to think that anyone who is rich never makes a bad investment. Only a LENR cult member can be that naive.

    You must never, ever open the door to even the slightest possibility that Rossi has something.

    Actually skeptics are far more open to the possibility that LENR is real than true believers are to the possibility that it is not.

    You must show your righteous character by the insults and seething contempt for someone you have never met! Erupting the scathing vile based upon only what each other here writes, without any more proof than the very believers that you ridicule.

    Actually true believers are far more insulting and seething than skeptics, comparing skeptics to genocidal maniacs and the like. And yes, we do think the burden of proof for an extraordinary claim falls to the claimant.

    Never admit the world is round….it is flat damit… anyone can look out their window and see it so!  Have a nice day! 

    Actually, LENR cultists bear a far closer resemblance to flat earthers than skeptics do. Both represent a tiny ragtag fringe of ignoramuses who hold irrational belief in something that is contrary to the evidence and to the nearly unanimous view of the most informed and educated scientists.

    • Lcd

      August 26, 2015 at 5:59 am

      I just read this and Grumpy came to mind.

      Pops at some point you just have to bow your head in defeat.

      Maybe this patent isn’t quite the end of the war for you of that I agree, but certainly a battle lost.

      The clock has started ticking.

      • popeye

        August 26, 2015 at 6:32 am

        LCD wrote:

        Pops at some point you just have to bow your head in defeat.

        Not at this point.

        Maybe this patent isn’t quite the end of the war for you of that I agree, but certainly a battle lost.

        It’s not a battle lost be LENR skeptics, because it does not claim LENR. Rossi is claiming chemical reactions, and chemical energy density. Nothing more. That’s how it got past the examiners.

        The clock has started ticking.

        Now?! The clock has started now?

        What about in 2011, when you said “Well I’m glad this will all get resolved soon…It will [get resolved next month] for me. I’m not the addictive type POPS”?

        Four years later, and the clock just now starts ticking. Sounds like an addiction to me.

        And why does a patent on some chemical reactions start a clock ticking on a nuclear ecat??

        Are you sure you have a physics education?

        • Lcd

          August 29, 2015 at 7:33 am

          I’m addicted? Who posts ten times a day pal.

          Anyways loving the fact that you guys are all squirming. And keep reminding yourself that you know every about condensed matter physics and this is all a dream.

          • popeye

            August 29, 2015 at 7:40 am

            But I never denied that I was addicted. You did. So far, I’ve not had to back off on any predictions. You on the other hand are forced to eat your words *every* time you make a dated prediction. So tell us again. When are those millions of web sites going to appear selling kits?

  8. Juaqina Park

    August 25, 2015 at 11:06 pm

    Bopeye you may not fully grasp the meaning of giving a patent to a pseudo-scientist. Next it will be N-rays, faster than light neutrinos, perpetual motion machines, cancer cures and hand washing before surgery.

    I made a mistake of reading the believer site Eecat Worlds and it actually helped me feel better. There are no real engineers over there but I did see some poignant comments. One from “Greenwin” had some helpful advice:

    “Key to overcoming catastrophizing is making a distinction between something being significantly unpleasant and it being a catastrophe.” https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-practice/201301/what-is-catastrophizing-cognitive-distortions

    I still think giving the Rossi Revolution a patent on anything accept a box of rocks is insane. But that’s probably a “cognitive distortion” like the article says. Maybe all us real engineers and scientists should take a himt. Rossi’s patent is a major defeat for real science but it’s not worth catastrophizing over.

    To make matters more distorted, real engineers at New Energy time says Japan’s government is financing LENR research up to $27M! WTF? http://news.newenergytimes.net/2015/08/24/japanese-government-will-fund-lenr-research-again/

    But I’m going to calm down, wipe the chin, and keep those “fingers moving” like the boss says!

    • popeye

      February 10, 2016 at 4:59 pm

      Greenie wrote:

      Bopeye you may not fully grasp the meaning of giving a patent to a pseudo-scientist. Next it will be N-rays, faster than light neutrinos, perpetual motion machines, cancer cures and hand washing before surgery.

      Patents are given to quacks all the time. It’s meaningless. But cold fusion and perpetual motion are flagged and given special scrutiny because they are contrary to predictions of well-established scientific generalizations already accumulated and verified.

      That’s why Rossi didn’t make the mistake of claiming anything cold fusion or LENR or nuclear in his patent.

      I still think giving the Rossi Revolution a patent on anything accept a box of rocks is insane.

      Greenie! “accept” for “except”? From you?! I’m so disappointed.

      But you can relax. Whatever this is, it is not a patent granted to the Rossi revolution, if by that you mean something nuclear.

      This is no more significant than giving Rossi a patent on a claim of an improved mousetrap.

      To make matters more distorted, real engineers at New Energy time says Japan’s government is financing LENR research up to $27M!

      So, tell Storms to add it to his estimated $500M spent on cold fusion in 26 years, all without a single reproducible cold fusion experiment.

  9. Shane D.

    August 26, 2015 at 2:33 am

    Popeyesays:

    All he claims explicitly is that it can generate 6 kWh (22 MJ) of energy from at least 3 kg of fuel. Now he says this can be achieved repeatedly for 6 months, which is rigorously true if it does it twice in 6 months. But 40 MJ from 3 kg is less than 1/3 the energy density of gasoline.

    Where did you get that? Citation please. I saw some fuel wafer dimensions of 1/3″ by 12″, with steel sandwiched in there. But 2.2kg…You counting the steel?

    Lewans described the fuel charge as minimal or something.

    I reread the patent after reading your critique, and read, unlike you, nuclear written all over it. Not explicitly, but strongly inferred.

    Remember too, that the patent office is very familiar with Rossi and his Ecat. VERY familiar. There is, almost explicitly due to him, a USPTO ban on LENR. Forgot the acronym, but something like SWAP.

    So you and TC telling me, that they all of a sudden forgot his earlier patent attempts, and his role in their new LENR restrictions, and vet his new app as if there was no prior, negative, history? Right. LOLs. Maybe.

    Look, these guys aren’t stupid, the USPTO knows the Rossi history, story and controversy too. Question is why, informed as they are, they caved this time. Yes the patent is written more general, sanitized of the “N” word, but it is still an Ecat patent…so why?

    Was it due their being fooled by Rossi as you claim we believers have been, or is it because they observed something convincing?

    Like I said, this has gotten interesting again. VEERRYY INNNTERRESSSTIING as Sgt Shultz used to say.

    Not sure the answer to that, but the metadata is certainly swinging the other direction. As we all know, the metadata doesn’t lie, or at the least, the interpretator of the data thinks he doesn’t.

    • popeye

      February 10, 2016 at 9:27 am

      Shane wrote:

      Where did you get that? Citation please. I saw some fuel wafer dimensions of 1/3″ by 12″, with steel sandwiched in there. But 2.2kg…You counting the steel?

      Well, the patent gives the fuel proportions as 50% nickel, 20% Li, and 30% LAH, but it doesn’t say if it’s a mass or volume proportion, which means the claim could be justified with the volume proportion, giving the fuel an average density of (.5*9 + .2*.5 + .3*1) = 4.9 g/cm^3.

      The dimensions are 12″ by 12″ by 6.3 mm, after subtracting the 2.2 mm from the 1/3″ thickness for the steel and the mica. That gives a fuel volume of 585 cm^3, and a mass of 2.9 kg.

      Even if it’s the mass proportion, the average density would be (.5/9 + .2/.5 + .3/1)^-1 = 1.3 g/cm^3 for a total mass of 770 g, meaning the energy density could still be comfortably in the chemical range to justify the statements.

      It means a patent examiner would not conclude nuclear reactions are necessary to explain the claims.

      I reread the patent after reading your critique, and read, unlike you, nuclear written all over it. Not explicitly, but strongly inferred.

      Well, yes. That was Rossi’s goal. To strongly infer nuclear for fans that are inclined to see nuclear in any claims that come from Rossi. It worked perfectly. But nuclear is *not* explicitly claimed, nor is it necessary if you do the sums.

      Rossi lists the reactions he is talking about. They are *chemical reactions*.

      Remember too, that the patent office is very familiar with Rossi and his Ecat. VERY familiar. There is, almost explicitly due to him, a USPTO ban on LENR.

      Huh? Do you think the patent office is 2 guys at the post office? USPTO has 10,000 employees. It’s entirely plausible that most of them have never heard of Rossi.

      Secondly, the special treatment for cold fusion patents along the lines of perpetual motion patents dates back to the 90s, before Rossi ever applied.

      Thirdly, patents are evaluated based on what is written, not on previous claims. This patent makes no claims that suggest LENR or nuclear reactions, so it’s not a LENR patent, and whatever ban there may or may not be on LENR patents, they don’t apply.

      There is simply no blatant violation of accepted physics, and so proof of operation is not required. According to the USPTO Manual of Patent Examining Practice, “With the exception of cases involving perpetual motion, a model is not ordinarily required by the Office to demonstrate the operability of a device.”

      So you and TC telling me, that they all of a sudden forgot his earlier patent attempts, and his role in their new LENR restrictions, and vet his new app as if there was no prior, negative, history? Right. LOLs. Maybe.

      It would be highly unethical to reject a patent because of the weakness of previous applications. Previous patents were rejected because they didn’t provide full disclosure and because they claimed nuclear reactions which were considered inoperable. This one does provide full disclosure (as far as can be determined), and does *not* claim nuclear reactions. How is that complicated?

      Question is why, informed as they are, they caved this time. Yes the patent is written more general, sanitized of the “N” word, but it is still an Ecat patent…so why?

      I’ve answered this many times already. This one provides disclosure and does not claim nuclear reactions. Everything in this patent might be entirely valid, but it promises nothing of any exceptional value — and certainly not anything like fusion or LENR promise.

      Was it due their being fooled by Rossi as you claim we believers have been, or is it because they observed something convincing?

      It’s not necessary to fool the examiners to get a patent accepted: “…a model is not ordinarily required by the Office to demonstrate the operability of a device.”

      That’s why so many patents that don’t work get accepted. As long as you don’t claim perpetual motion or cold fusion, and you meet the other criteria, you can patent something that doesn’t work, or something that may work, but has little value. This may or may not work, but if it does, according to what is described, it has dubious value.

  10. Pweet

    August 26, 2015 at 5:11 am

    Soooo,.. nothing about Ni + H -> Cu ?
    I’m disappointed. And had Focardi still been alive, so would he be.

    And where did all that 99% pure Ni62 come from in the Lugano test ash? I can’t imagine that Rossi switched the ash sample to throw the professors off the trail. You know, like he did when he demonstrated a non functional e-cat to Krivit ,. just to throw him off the trail.

    I wonder if maybe he has obtained a patent for a non functional e-cat just to throw us all off the trail?
    So many possibilities it’s hard to pick a favorite.

    It’s probably already been said, but I’ll say it again, the issue of a patent is no guarantee that a device actually works.
    The patent office is full of patents which cover devices which don’t work at all.

  11. John Milstone

    August 26, 2015 at 5:35 am

    Asterix said:

    How many times has Mr. Rossi actually stated flatly that his collection of hardware is nuclear in any form?

    Hundreds? Thousands?

    Recall, it was the “Rosi/Focardi” paper that was the justification for Rossi creating his blog that pretends to be a science journal and started this circus where Rossi (and Focardi) claimed their Ni + H -> Cu + 511 KeV.

  12. Alexvs

    August 26, 2015 at 8:06 am

    US patent granted, believers are exultant, Stremmenos congratulates, God helps, communism approaches success. Reading JONP one feels in Arcadia.

    Unfortunately E-Cat (warm, hot, electric, wireless…) have a long journey before (to no place). The patent granted to Rossi is only 1/65 part of E-Cat IP (Rossi says). Even now the plus minus disclaimer remains in force.

  13. Asterix

    August 26, 2015 at 4:19 pm

    In a way, this resembles the scheme of one Richard Weir and his company Eestor, a company based on the idea that Weir possessed the technology and knowledge to build high-capacitance, high-voltage capacitors using barium titanate and plastic. This for magic technology to deliver working devices by the end of 2007 to hail the start of the era of cars powered with his revolutionary capacitor.

    He got Zenn Motors (of Canada) to hitch their wagon to his star and kept investor optimism going by filing patent applications, largely for things unrelated to the promised functioning of his technology. All of this, while carefully picking his testing people and controlling the test scenarios and strategically leaking misleading information.

    After a few million dollars had been spent, someone finally got a reputable and honest tester to evaluate Weir’s devices, which, at best, turned out to be little better with regard to some parameters than ordinary technology.

    My belief is that the Canadians are burning through their remaining cash reserves hoping that someone, anyone, will buy them out. Eestor/Zenn still is traded in pink sheets; probably the plaything of some computer stock trading software.

    This technology had a bit more ring of truth about it–although several people were calling Weir’s actions fraudulent right from the start–but the play seems to be roughly similar to the Rossi game. There are still some believers out there, evidently.

  14. Alexvs

    August 27, 2015 at 9:19 am

    In the lab papers of Dr. Bovis Scheitze, he outlines a similar device as described in Rossi’s patent also named Akkagutermak (eng. fluid heater) but with a different application i.e. Egabregala Renai Fogramagenak (eng. sterilization of goat milk for cheese production). He did not write down the input power nor the efficiency of process.

    Not that I insinuate plagiarism, such independent equal or similar discoveries are usual in science. Think of Newton-Leibnitz, or Levi-Celani-Foccardi-Rossi for example. Following this logic I predict same end results for Keely, Papp, Perendev and Rossi.

  15. Al Potenza

    August 27, 2015 at 8:59 pm

    Tom Whipple is at it again– let him know what you think of his silly Rossifiction article. Here:

    http://fcnp.com/2015/08/27/the-peak-oil-crisis-cold-fusion-gets-a-u-s-patent/

  16. Thomas Clarke

    August 27, 2015 at 10:04 pm

    I’ve commented on the skeptopath/cryptodenialist argument.

    http://ownshrink.com/skeptopathy/pseudoskepticism-skeptopathy-cryptodenialism-rossi-ecat/

    It is missing the point, which is an objective evaluation of the scientific evidence.
    I have little sympathy for people arguing about what they claim is science who do not start with the scientific evidence but instead argue psychology.

    PS – I do have a sense of humour. Honest. Really. Just you are all out to get me and so deny it!

  17. Harry Perini

    August 27, 2015 at 11:31 pm

    Rossi has been granted US patent on the E-Cat — fuel mix specified
    Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 @ 21:36:47 EDT by vlad

    Devices Mats Lewan writes on his “Impossible Invention” blog: (Last updated on August 25, 9.17 pm CET). Today Andrea Rossi was granted a patent on his LENR based heating device the E-Cat. The patent, which has the filing date March 14, 2012, can be downloaded here: US9115913B1

    As far as I understand, the patent describes the so-called low temperature E-Cat that Rossi showed in semi-public demonstrations at several occasions in 2011, and which is also used in an ongoing 350-day trial of a 1 MW plant, but since it describes core parts of the technology it is probably also valid at a certain extent also for more recent E-Cat models with higher operating temperature.

    Note that LENR is not mentioned explicitly in the patent, but also note that the contents of the fuel mix are specified — lithium and lithium aluminium hydride as fuel and a group 10 element, such as nickel in powdered form as the catalyst. This is important since fuel and catalyst specifications are lacking from an earlier patent application by Rossi on the E-Cat.

    The earlier application has widely been considered far to weak to have chances to be granted. It was originally filed in Italy in April 2008, and an Italian patent was granted in 2011 but the approval was based on old rules, basically not involving any validation of the claims…

    Full story: http://animpossibleinvention.com/2015/08/25/rossi-has-been-granted-us-patent-on-the-e-cat/

  18. Daniel Maris

    August 28, 2015 at 2:19 am

    Interesting development:

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/08/27/industrial-heat-files-new-international-patent-for-energy-producing-reaction-devices/

    (In Industrial Heat’s name and with a new name on board – Dameron).

  19. Daniel Maris

    August 28, 2015 at 2:20 am

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/08/27/industrial-heat-files-new-international-patent-for-energy-producing-reaction-devices/

    What about this development then. A new patent application in Industrial Heat’s name and with a new person involved (TB Dameron).

  20. paul42

    August 28, 2015 at 1:31 pm

    From my viewpoint as an engineer and as an interested student of human behavior, I find this whole discussion very interesting. There appears to be this bell curve of reaction with people who believe that cold fusion is impossible on one end and people who believe that it has been proven on the other.

    Based on the science of human behavior, it is a given that anybody who’s livelihood might be threatened by the existence of cold fusion is never going to be convinced that it works until you can buy one at your local hardware store.
    Based on this same science of human behavior, it is a given that anybody who really wants cold fusion to exist is going to believe it even if Rossi’s device is proven to be a fraud.
    Failure to recognize our own biases can lead to faulty logic and faulty conclusions.

    One such example of faulty logic is the comparison of cold fusion with perpetual motion. It is a given that perpetual motion is impossible. The laws of physics completely rule it out. It doesn’t matter what temperature or pressure you try to run it at, including absolute zero, it is still impossible.
    Fusion, on the other hand, is a known fact. We know that given certain conditions, the right fuel, temperature, and pressure, it will occur. The Coulomb barrier is often stated as the reason why cold fusion is impossible. However, to state that it is impossible implies that we know all the boundary conditions that affect it, and that is way too much hubris, even for me.
    So, the best we can say is that the Coulomb barrier makes cold fusion very unlikely. To a mathematician, or an engineer, the difference between impossible and very unlikely is infinite.

    There are some very bright people in this world that are convinced that cold fusion and LENR is all a fraud. I don’t know anybody in this category who has had the opportunity to study a supposedly working example, so my conclusion is that their convictions are based solely on their preconceptions. This does not make their convictions wrong, but it does lead to the possibility that their convictions are biased for whatever reason.
    There appear to be some very bright people in this world that are convinced that cold fusion or LENR is real. Some of them had the opportunity to study a supposedly working example. Some of these very bright people who have had the opportunity to study a supposedly working example have invested millions of dollars into research and development. Some of them have invested their reputation in this. This does not make their convictions right, but their experience means that they do have more facts to support their conclusions.
    From my perspective, the people who have the most inside information believe that LENR is real. People who believe that LENR is impossible have the least inside information.

    • popeye

      January 1, 2016 at 12:42 am

    • popeye

      January 1, 2016 at 12:45 am

      Paul42 wrote:

      From my viewpoint as an engineer and as an interested student of human behavior,

      The difference between rational skeptics and gullible believers is that skeptics aren’t really interested in the “viewpoint” of an engineer and student of human behavior whose credentials are completely unknown. Skeptics are interested in verifiable facts or observations, logical argument, and possibly opinions of people with known credentials.

      And you seem to think you are offering an original view here, but it’s as tired and hackneyed as all the true believer arguments, and so my response will be largely cut and pasted from the many times people like Shane and ransom and maris and others have presented it in the past.

      There appears to be this bell curve of reaction with people who believe that cold fusion is impossible on one end and people who believe that it has been proven on the other.

      Ransom likes to argue there’s a bell curve like this, but I’ve never seen it justified. The evidence from publication and funding patterns and the like suggests the distribution is highly asymmetric, with a tiny fringe that believes cold fusion has been proven, a slightly larger contingent that thinks it’s reality is somewhere between likely and conceivable, and the vast majority of informed scientists who are all but certain it is bogus — that it represents another example of pathological science.

    • popeye

      January 1, 2016 at 12:47 am

      Paul42 wrote:

      Based on the science of human behavior, it is a given that anybody who’s livelihood might be threatened by the existence of cold fusion is never going to be convinced that it works until you can buy one at your local hardware store.

      This is utter nonsense. Please cite the accepted science of human behavior that promotes such crapola.

      I am not aware of a precedent in the history of science in which it took a commercial product to convince skeptics of the validity of a revolutionary phenomenon. After the Wrights flew in public in 1908, no witness, no matter their livelihood or previous claims, could deny that man could fly. And skeptics capitulated immediately. It did not take a commercial airplane to convince them. It took good evidence.

      Presumably, when HTSC was discovered in 1986, the livelihood of people working on low temperature superconductivity was threatened (even if the threat turned out to be mostly empty), but there was not even a murmur of skepticism anywhere on the planet, because the evidence was unequivocal.

      If the cold fusion claims had any merit, even more obvious demonstrations would be possible, but in 26 years, they never been accomplished.

      I’m not saying bias plays no role, but the essential ingredient in whether people are convinced is the quality of the evidence, and the quality of the cold fusion evidence is similar to that for bigfoot, homeopathy, aliens and so forth. That is to say, it is in the toilet.

      Based on this same science of human behavior, it is a given that anybody who really wants cold fusion to exist is going to believe it even if Rossi’s device is proven to be a fraud.

      That is also utter nonsense. There may be some in that category, but nearly *everyone* really wants cold fusion to exist. That is obvious from the way the scientific community and everyone else responded to the P&F press conference in 1989. P&F were treated like scientific stars by other scientists at scientific conferences. Even Morrison, who would later become a vocal skeptic, was initially swept up in the excitement, writing “… I feel this subject will become so important to society that we must consider the broader implications as well as the scientific ones. Looking into a cloudy crystal ball, […] the present big power companies will be running down their oil and coal power stations while they are building deuterium separation plants and new power plants based on cold fusion. No new nuclear power stations will be built except for military needs….”

      But the best account of cold fusion’s initial enthusiastic reception comes from chapter 2 of Storms’ book on The Science of LENR:

      “A day after the public announcement, work was under way at LANL … People were quickly organized … with a speed that is no longer possible at LANL. Everyone scurried off to find palladium and heavy-water before the limited supplies were snatched up by someone else…”

      Excitement was building as more people heard about the “discovery” and wanted to get in on the action. If real, such an important discovery hardly ever happens during a scientist’s career, … “

      “During most of April, large and animated meetings were held every week as people tried to understand what Fleischmann and Pons had done and how the claimed effects might be duplicated. …”

      “By April 19, multiple programs were underway at Argonne National Laboratory (ANL), Pacific Northwest Laboratory (PNL), … [10 other national labs]”

      “In addition, 56 people, involving 8 teams, were working on the problem at LANL. Of course, non-government laboratories as well as groups in other countries were also working hard. […copious details of labs around the world getting busy…] As this list of laboratories demonstrates, interest was widespread and spontaneous, with studies started in at least 50 major laboratories worldwide involving at least 600 scientists. In addition, many articles in the press and onTV spread interest to the general public. All of the major news magazines featured Fleischmann and Pons on their front covers.”

      “At one point, the director of LANL, Dr. Siegfried Hecker, confided to me that he had not seen so much enthusiasm at the Laboratory since World War II. “Physicistsare actually talking to chemists,” he observed with amazement. This attitude was being duplicated all over the world. To be sustained, this huge bubble of enthusiasm needed some very significant confirming results, …”

      And in a paper for Infinite Energy, Storms wrote “many of us were lured into believing that the Pons-Fleischmann effect would solve the world’s energy problems and make us all rich.”

      There are other accounts of where nuclear physicists spent a month eating and sleeping in the lab, so hopeful and excited were they to be at the forefront of a revolution, only to come up empty.

      So, the overwhelming instinct was to believe P&F, and to want it to be true, but when the *evidence* failed to stand up to scrutiny, most of this optimism and excitement vanished. And many of the most notable skeptics were not people whose livelihood would be threatened by its success. Nathan Lewis was a chemist, Koonin was a theoretical physicist, who could have had a heyday trying to develop a theory for it.

      Failure to recognize our own biases can lead to faulty logic and faulty conclusions.

      Of course, there is truth in this (possibly the only truth in your entire essay), but there are limits. Only in extreme cases can a bias make you believe in Santa Claus (young children for example), or disbelieve in the Copernican solar system or the round earth. Phenomena like cold fusion could not remain hidden for a quarter century after claims of its observation. An energy density a million times that of dynamite in a device the size of a bread-box, at ordinary conditions, would not elude positive proof for this long.

      And this is especially the case when you consider that the overwhelming bias in the case of cold fusion is in its favor, as clearly evidenced by the events in 1989, as described by Storms, and quoted above.

      When the quality of evidence for a revolutionary claim is as lame as it is for cold fusion, bias in its favor produces only a tiny fringe of believers, and among those with relevant qualifications, this fringe continues to shrink toward oblivion.

  21. Al Potenza

    August 28, 2015 at 4:39 pm

    In fact I suppose I don’t know whether Rossi has made some breakthrough in the area of heat transfer.

    You mean the genius who can’t calibrate a single demo or experiment? The expert who designs a supposedly highly energetic reactor running at 1000+ degrees C without the slightest forced cooling whatever? The wonder engineer who can’t do proper calorimetry even one time when told again and again for four years how to perform it with several different methods?

    Oh yeah. I am sure Rossi made a world class contribution to the art of heat transfer, Yah shoore he did.

  22. Shane D.

    August 28, 2015 at 5:55 pm

    Maybe so Al. I myself became critical of Rossi just recently because, among the things you mention, it appeared IH was out.

    IH filed the first Hotcat USPTO patent in Oct 2014, yet 6 months later when it was rejected, they weren’t on the application any longer. Now this new international patent Hotcat app, filed the same time (last Oct), shows them on the app. My guess is that when we find out more recent correspondence on that one, they disappear off that app too.

    Why I don’t know, but it is damning. Don’t know what happened between IH/Rossi between last fall and this spring to cause that.

    However Mats Lean just confirmed this co-inventor: Thomas Barker Dameron, is an IH engineer. That kind of brings them back into the picture.

  23. Thicket

    August 28, 2015 at 8:52 pm

    I’m not surprised that Rossi got this patent. It’s a heater. As some have pointed out, there is zero reference to LENR or cold fusion. If someone not familiar with Rossi read the patent, they wouldn’t associate it with any grand claims for a revolutionary energy source.

    It’s only believers who think that the patent somehow adds to the credibility of Rossi’s eCat claims. Heck, Blacklight Power, EEStor, Steorn, Mike Brady (Perendev) and Howard Johnson (Magnetic Motors) all have or had patents. Their patents helped them extract money from naive, credulous and gullible believers. I’m sure Rossi will continue to have success doing the same.

  24. Al Potenza

    August 29, 2015 at 12:05 am

    Take it easy and hang around, Shane. There is no reason to use insults here unless they are directed at Rossi!

    I have replied to Josephson and to Brad Stevens’ comments on Nature’s weekly letters here:

    http://www.nature.com/news/the-week-in-science-21-27-august-2015-1.18224

    Read it, Ransom and review, please. You seem to forget all too soon what has gone on for the last four years of Rossifiction and scams.

  25. Jami

    August 29, 2015 at 9:32 am

    Wrong link…

  26. Harry Perini

    August 29, 2015 at 4:07 pm

    Rossi and Industrial Heat, LLC

    Perhaps the most startling (and most controversial) report is by an Italian-American engineer-entrepreneur named Andrea Rossi. Rossi claims that he has developed a tabletop reactor that produces heat by an as-yet-not-fully-understood LENR process.

    Rossi has gone well beyond laboratory demonstration; he claims that he and the private firm Industrial Heat, LLC of Raleigh, North Carolina, USA, have actually installed a working system at an (undisclosed) commercial customer’s site.

    According to Rossi and a handful of others who have observed the system in operation, it is producing 1 MWatt continuous net output power, in the form of heat, from a few grams of “fuel” in each of a set of modest-sized reactors in a network. The system has now been operating for approximately six months, as part of a one-year acceptance test. Rossi and IH LLC are in talks with Chinese firms for large-scale commercial manufacture.

    Several “reliable sources” have visited Rossi’s commercial site, and have verified that the system is working as claimed, as evidenced, for example, by the customer’s significantly reduced electric bills.

    On the downside, from a scientific point view, Rossi’s work leaves much to be desired, to say the least. Rossi remains tight-lipped as to technical details, preferring to protect his company’s intellectual property through silence.

    However, a few details have now come to light. For example, Rossi was just granted a patent by the U.S. Patent Office. The patent includes some heretofore unknown details, such as the contents of the “fuel” in Rossi’s reactors: it is a powder of 50% nickel, 20% lithium and 30% lithium aluminum hydride.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-h-bailey/post_10010_b_8052326.html

  27. JohnP

    August 31, 2015 at 2:11 am

    Patents or not, IH or not, there are two indisputable facts that not even the most rabid Believer can argue:

    1) Nobody can name A SINGLE PERSON who would come forward and say that he/she has seen the 1MW plant working.

    2) In Mercatu Veritas. Is there an E-cat for sale, in any guise, after 5 years? No? Not veritas, then.

    • Frank

      September 2, 2015 at 3:08 am

      Yes, but who from the remaining diehard believers cares what Rossi said yesterday – no one.

      If they would just for one moment recap what has actually evolved from the claims Rossi made 3 1/2 years ago…

      The domestic E-Cats of 10 kW will be manufactured with a different technology and with a very good economy scale, due to the fact that we have started the production of 1 million pieces
      Source:
      http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/01/06/rossi-plans-for-small-10-kw-e-cats-to-cost-100-150/

      … they would have given up believing in Rossi long time ago.

  28. Al Potenza

    September 1, 2015 at 4:21 pm

    I call this Rossisplaining:

    Andrea Rossi
    September 1st, 2015 at 7:00 AM
    Alessandro Coppi:
    Math is not an opinion indeed, but physical terms must be correct: kWh/h is not equal to kW: the first term indicates the energy consumed or produced in 1 hour, the second indicates the power of the system, whatever the system is. The term kWh indicates energy, but if you do not refer it to a unit of time it does not give much of information.

    To explain better the concept of energy: 1 kWh is a quantum of energy that corresponds to the energy that an average horse is able to yield working for 1 hour, multiplied by the 1.36 factor. By the way ( less important): k and h must be small letters, W must be capital because is the initial of the family name of Mr Watt.

    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    so kWh/h is NOT the same as kW? Me worry. Dimensional-anal-ysis is more complickated den I taut.

  29. Thicket

    September 1, 2015 at 5:43 pm

    Taut is what believers weren’t in science class.

    Taut refers to the believer children who believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and the e-cat.

    Taut refers to the hold that Rossi has on the wallets of the believers he has scammed.

    Taut sounds like tot, which means ‘dead’ in German although pronounce differently. Tot refers to the dreams of silly e-cat believers.

  30. Thomas Clarke

    September 2, 2015 at 8:50 am

    Popeye said (re Godes Tritium results): “So, that interview is yet another in a long list of meaningless cheer-leader hype. The evidence just never gets better.”

    The evidence perfectly fits what you expect if LENR does not exist.

    Consider:
    excess heat: never above expected error
    radioactivity (of any kind): never above expected error
    helium: never above expected error
    tritium: never above expected error

    And the bounds in each case give very different limits on nuclear COP – so that for example if tritium is a reaction product the typical 20 dps type results show (I’m generously allowing 10MeV enthalpy from some nuclear reaction producing tritium):

    20*10^6*1.6*10^-16 = 3.2E-9 W.

    Popeye was spot on. We have calorimetry errors of between watts and a few hundred watts (or a few thousand watts in the case of the flawed Rossi test – but then Rossi has a real talent for finding high calorimetry errors).

    10 OOM difference.

    So let us suppose both excess heat and excess tritium are killer signs of LENR. What are the chances that they both so conveniently end up in the range of error, when nuclear reactions generating such energy would lead to results detected at 10 OOM higher level?

    In all cases one OOM extra on any of these observations would make a definite and interesting result. And we have many different experiments, with different claimed levels of excess heat. Yet they all somehow calibrate themselves to lie within experimental error?

  31. Thomas Clarke

    September 2, 2015 at 10:31 am

    PS I’m ignoring the ln 2 factor in the half life/ experimental time adjustement, since it is insignificant at the level of approximation needed here.

  32. Al Potenza

    September 2, 2015 at 5:34 pm

    One of the annoying things about this scumbag Rossi is that he keeps seducing new marks. If this continues, his money sources will too. I am sure he counts on it. Here is one sad example:

    Merlin Vaux
    September 1st, 2015 at 8:58 PM
    Dear Andrea:

    Bill Gates has presented to the world with drums and trumpets his nuclear reactor that ( he says) has been able for few seconds to make a reaction that produced few watthours…you have a 1 MW plant in operation in a factory of a customer that produces megawatthours per day, while, moved by your enormous work, entities like Japan government, Airbus, Volvo, Elforsk, Lockeed Martin, Boeing, NRL, MIT, and many others entered in the field on nuclear fusion that had been almost abandoned before your now historic test of January 2011.

    Thank you for what you are doing: may God bless you.

    Merlin Vaux

    Megawatt-hours per day! Wow. Historic test of January 2011? Or maybe Levi’s historic test of February 2011 which was the most powerful ever but incredibly deficient and has not been repeated EVER by ANYONE in going on 5 years?

    Or has everyone forgotten this memorable article by Lewan about the Levi test?

    http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3108242.ece

    This is the test that Brian Josephson asked Levi to do again with calibration, at my request. And Levi never even responded to the email because he was so busy improving coffee makers, he just didn’t have time to answer a Nobel laureate.

  33. Daniel Maris

    September 3, 2015 at 1:35 am

    I suppose you will want to rubbish this latest study rather than say it merits further enquiry…

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/09/02/analysis-of-fuel-samples-from-mfmp-reactor-runs-show-statistically-significant-isotope-changes/

  34. Daniel Maris

    September 4, 2015 at 12:47 am

    Seems like you can’t trust these patent office guys can you?

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/09/03/european-patent-office-approves-patent-for-piantellis-lenr-method/#comments

    Another LENR patent approved…

  35. Daniel Maris

    September 4, 2015 at 2:39 pm

    And now it seems some scientists at CERN are taking an interest in LENR…

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/09/03/cern-to-host-seminar-on-the-anomalous-heat-effect-on-dh-loaded-palladium/

    • tyy

      September 6, 2015 at 3:19 am

      LENR zombification.

  36. paul42

    September 4, 2015 at 8:28 pm

    As you are all aware, Rossi was granted a US patent a couple of weeks ago for his “fluid heater”. As many of you are aware, earlier this week, Piantelli was granted a European patent for his “METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR GENERATING ENERGY BY NUCLEAR REACTIONS OF HYDROGEN ADSORBED BY ORBITAL CAPTURE ON A NANOCRYSTALLINE STRUCTURE OF A METAL”. Sorry about the all caps. It is a result of the cut & paste from the patent application.

    The two patents both provide a lot of interesting reading, and comparing the two is also edifying. From a layman’s prospective, the two patents appear to have enough differences to be non-overlapping. However, they both specifically mention, Nickel, Lithium, and Hydrogen, as being very applicable materials for the “fuel” for their devices.

    So, the possibilities are
    A. Both of these are fraudulent devices and they just “happened” to pick the same fuel elements by coincidence.
    B. Both of these are fraudulent devices and one of them copied the other.
    C. Both of these are fraudulent devices and they both copied a third party, which had to also be a scam.
    D. The two people are working together and created separate patents.
    E. Neither of them is a fraud and these three elements happen to work if you put them together right.

    Choice “A” seems unlikely, this is just too big of a coincidence.

    Choices “B”, “C”, and “D” do not make sense to me. The problem is that the outing of the original scam artist would cast extreme doubt on the copycat. If both are scams, then they are both dependent on the other scam not being revealed. There is nothing to be gained by competing in the public domain with another scam artist, and much to lose.

    Choices “B”, “C”, and “D” also increase the number of people in on the secret of the scam. If this is a scam, now there are multiple organizations involved. Scams, like any other conspiracy, depend on keeping the number of people in the “know” to a minimum.

    Rossi and Piantelli obviously have very different design philosophies in the mechanical details of their relevant designs. From an engineering perspective, Rossi’s fuel “wafer” idea seems better suited to higher output reactors with a constant output. Maintaining the same surface area to volume ratio is the key to increasing the output power. His design makes more sense for a fixed load.

    On the other hand, Piantellia’s design philosophy seems better suited for smaller but more controllable reactors. They appear to be controllable over a better than 2 to 1 range of power outputs.

  37. JohnP

    September 5, 2015 at 7:07 pm

    Here’s a request for Popeye and Thomas Clarke: Believers act like the fact that an anomaly exists is proof of LENR. I guess that there must be many (or at least several) unexplained anomalies in science.

    I would ask that for the benefit of intelligent Believers (those that come visit here as a counterbalance to dogmatic, censorship-ridden ECW) you list some other anomalies that are not related to LENR.

    (Anybody else who wants to contribute is welcome.)

  38. JKW

    September 9, 2015 at 6:04 am

    The crickets chirping is probably due to many readers getting tired of the broken chronological and relational order of posts. It is tiresome to figure out who is talking to who, or who is referring to whose posts.
    Or it might be just that Rossi’s recent “developments” and the intake capacity of the believers have exceeded the threshold of stupidity tolerable by most of the posters here, even if they were interested in the research of the psychology of gullibility.

  39. David

    September 10, 2015 at 5:40 am

    Lol, This thread is hilarious. I haven’t been by here for over a year, and I see the same characters still arguing between “tastes great! and Less filling!” I honestly had to check the date stamps to really believe it.

    I have no idea if this thing is real or not, so I peek in occasionally just to see what’s up. If I did really believe it worked, I might be inclined to check more often, but one thing is certain.

    If, on the other hand, I was convinced it was bogus, I would not be here for post after post, day after day… For years… trying uselessly, hopelessly, to convince someone I never met that it wasn’t. A logical person, a rational person, would simply scoff, and allow the fool to be a fool. Life is too short to argue with the wind.

    Instead, some here spend this much time and effort to beat the fool down?

    That, my friends, is the definition of obsession. It is clear to me that the wise skeptics are even more pathetic than the foolish believers.

    That is truly ironic.

    See you all in a year. I’m sure you will still be here trying to disprove the unprovable.

  40. JNewman

    September 10, 2015 at 3:31 pm

    Somewhere upthread is a new visitor named David who took the time to drop by and mock everyone who spends time here. He starts out by saying that this place is hilarious and then goes on tell us that there is no good reason to be here.

    Well, David, the fact that this place is hilarious is exactly why most of us are here. Is that difficult to comprehend?

    As for trying to convince believers not to believe, you are correct in saying that is a waste of time. It is indeed impossible. But it is endlessly entertaining (in a train-wreck sort of way) to watch them continue to embrace the preposterous or even outright impossible with such determination.

    But if this sort of spectacle is not of your liking, by all means disappear for another year. Doubtless things will be pretty much the same when you return, provided that Paul lets this thing continue and fixes its glitches.

    See ya.

  41. JohnP

    September 10, 2015 at 11:33 pm

    Ah, no sightings of the E-cat, but metadata abounds.

    “Metadata is the Believers’ methadone.”

    Something to calm the cravings as they wait for the real (non-existent) thing to exist.

  42. JohnP

    September 12, 2015 at 12:12 am

    Let the Believers pile up their metadata. When push comes to shove

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGE4dnrPPZQ

  43. Ransompw

    September 12, 2015 at 4:41 am

    The post by Tony2 about birth control has to be the funniest, most comical post on this site since it started. The idea that he, AL, Newman etc are even slightly more worthy of existing in this world is beyond hilarious.

    On one hand you have the wide eye naive optimists who compose ECW and JoP and then you have the sour, pathetic pessimists who populate this site. Let’s just contemplate which is better for the world? Wow that is so hard, the opposite end of the Bell curve, each as dysfunctional as a human being can be but one is optimistic and the other ? Well Tony2, please be so kind as to take your kind and disappear, you are the ones not needed.

  44. RansomPW

    September 12, 2015 at 11:33 am

    Tony2’s post about birth control has to be the most comical post to date on this site and there have been a lot of comical posts. Let’s see Gullible (the folks at ECW) vs Cynical (the esteemed group here), which group would the world be better off without? Which end of the Bell shaped curve representing human deviants would the world be better off without?

    Tony2, who would be the Yang to your Yin if you rid the world of the bright, positive optimists (very often gullible)and left us with the sour taste of your cynical group? Sorry, if any group should disappear, let it be the Yin’ers. Best know as the perpetual Whinners.

    • popeye

      February 10, 2016 at 9:38 am

      Ransompw wrote:

      Let’s see Gullible (the folks at ECW) vs Cynical (the esteemed group here), which group would the world be better off without? Which end of the Bell shaped curve representing human deviants would the world be better off without?

      In the first place, you have never justified the idea that the curve is even remotely bell-shaped. The evidence from publication and funding patterns and the like suggests the distribution is highly asymmetric, with a tiny fringe that believes cold fusion has been proven, a slightly larger contingent that thinks it’s reality is somewhere between likely and conceivable, and the vast majority of informed scientists who are all but certain it is bogus — that it represents another example of pathological science.

      In the second place, there is absolutely no doubt which the world would be better off without. The skeptics include a long list of Nobel laureates, and just about every productive scientist in the last 26 years. Murray Gell-Mann gave us quarks, and Glashow and Weinberg gave us the electroweak theory, to name just 3. And these scientists, by the way, are far more skeptical than those of us on internet forums who actually pay attention to the alleged phenomenon. On the true believers side, I am not aware of a single contribution to humanity made by any of them in the investigation of cold fusion. The believers, and even the claimed fence-sitters like you, on the other hand, enable a long list of people who are almost certainly con men, and the world is certainly better off without con men.

  45. Victor

    September 12, 2015 at 12:22 pm

    So Tony, are you part of the Big Science circle or the Petroleum Industry?

  46. Pweet

    September 13, 2015 at 3:42 pm

    @ Ascoli65 Sept 13th
    who writes
    “that flag “has been flown over the capitol Hill in Washington, DC”, and that “has been donated to [him] from [his] Friend Thomas Darden, Pres. and CEO of Industrial Heat.” ”

    What weight does that add to anything if the flag was given to Rossi by Tom Darden?
    Does that validate anything apart from what we have known for more than a year?
    Isn’t it more probable the flag was given to Rossi by Darden at or about the time the “partnership” was signed up and probably paid for?
    Has anybody said the flag was a recent acquisition?

    And nobody is saying the patent does not exist. The argument is the patent is NOT for an LENR device but for a fluid heater using a chemical heater element.
    It’s all the adoring Rossi fans who are making all sorts of claims with absolutely no proof, and even less, very little actual claims by Rossi other than accepting and thanking his followers for their outlandish interpretations of it all and congratulations for same. And of course, to fire up more groundless enthusiasm, Rossi religiously publishes them all. His blog contains pages of them.
    Rossi barely has to make a claim. He just hints at one and lets the gullible fools fill in the blanks. They even tell him how it could probably work. No wonder he says he learns lots from all his readers. They are doing all his work for him.
    When they tell him enough he will finally pick out the best bits and then that will be how it all works,.. until it is found that it actually doesn’t.
    No problem there either.
    By that time there will be a new version ready for announcement.
    Hence, the brilliant hot cat which ran like a Ferrari but had to be de-tuned to purr like a kitten ( for safety reasons of course) has recently been proclaimed dead on arrival.
    Does that deter the chronically deluded?
    Of course not because now we have the even more brilliant e-cat X.
    Who cares about the dumping of an old obsolete model when it’s replaced by something so much better,.. maybe,. the results can be positive or negative (f9) !!!
    What a joke! Something which was previously heralded in as the best thing since sliced bread has been unceremoniously dumped in preference for something which might not even work, and the fan club swallows the lot without a whimper. If only I could get my dog to swallow it’s worming pills with so little fuss!

    This is truly a window into the human condition.
    No wonder Bernie Madoff managed to do as well as he did. It’s all just too easy.

    Say little, infer lots and let the gullible fools do the rest.
    And when the ‘new fire’ is well alight and blazing away you can damp it down a bit with the occasional (f9)comment, the results could be positive or negative,.. just to cover your ass.
    Gee, Bernie missed out on that little gem though so now he’s in the slammer.

  47. Thomas Clarke

    September 14, 2015 at 12:46 am

    Well – things sure have got more exciting than usual here!

    We have all the mystery of Rossi’s Flaggate. Was it photoshopped? What does it mean? How could Rossi be perpetrating a scam if he lets a picture of himself with the US flag (photoshopped or not) out into the public domain.

    The banal idiocy of Flaggate is what characterises successful free energy scams. instead of focussing on the strong scientific evidence that Rossi has nothing, we are drawn down labyrinthine corridors of speculation about why Rossi does what he does.

    Even were Rossi highly rational, that way lies madness. Too many unknowns. In reality we know Rossi to be quick-tempered, illogical, irrational.

    @Shane. I agree. Patents are Rossi’s lifeblood. Better than independent scientific validation, which he has tried hard to get but failed. This patent is clever. The stated field means it avoids any enhanced scrutiny and if crafted by a decent patent lawyer can get through. The IH money seems to have been well spent?

  48. Pweet

    September 14, 2015 at 4:52 am

    @ Ascoli65
    “So, the flag does not validate anything, because there is nothing to validate. But its presence behind Rossi and its story (true or false) may have some hidden meaning.”

    The purpose of the flag and the prominent displaying of Rossi with the patent,m along with all the hype about the origins of the emblems etc is entirely for the purpose of giving the impression that the E-cat technology has been examined by the American patent office and accepted as being valid and genuine. “It must be. Here is the patent!”
    You only have to read some of the guff coming from the adoring fans to realist that in this endeavor, Rossi has been successful.
    In actual fact, the patent means nothing and is of no use at all in protecting anything to do with the supposed LENR tescnology. Rossi knows that but he also knows that his fan club believes they now have a patent to use as a stick to beat down the so called skeptopaths with. That is it’s main purpose, and if it can be used to give some impression of genuine success to the next hapless investor then all the better.
    In that respect, it makes no difference whether the whole thing is photo-shopped or not.
    Just view it as another piece of groundless advertising propaganda to keep the troops in close formation.

  49. popeye

    September 14, 2015 at 9:20 am

    wrong place

  50. popeye

    September 14, 2015 at 9:26 am

    wrong place again