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Second HotCat Test Report – Updated

October 8, 2014

Update 22 Oct 2014:

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to the debate. Rossi continues to deliver even if it is not what he promised. Despite many sceptics deriding the man as a third rate showman, I tip my hat to his ability to keep this show going.  It is too easy to label anyone in his camp an idiot. That would apply to too many otherwise intelligent scientists. There are many lessons here but most of them revolve around human nature. We can pore over the minutia  of the report but the lack of genuine third-party scrutiny makes me suspect foul-play. Rather than provide clarity, he has once again failed to step up to the mark.

After all this time and solely as a nod to all those otherwise intelligent beings, I cannot proclaim this a fraud with certainty. However, I do lament the waste of all that talent. A child could prove that this is real and an independent lab under NDA could take a prep’d and sealed tube and attest to its reality without compromising the IP. The latest test appears to be designed to convince someone but I doubt the target is the scientific community. Without the ability to replicate, too much has to be taken on trust – something Rossi forfeited many lies ago.

The warning on this site still stands.

End Update

———————————————-

 

 

The long-awaited 2nd HotCat report is now available, although there appears to be some delay or problem holding it from arXiv.
It is lengthy and as is my usual practice, the aim is to report its appearance ASAP to let others discuss it. It is a pity that it appears to have been conducted by the same researchers – for no other reason that if there was any doubt about the veracity of the first report, that would have been mitigated by the performance of new actors.

According to the abstract, the test was performed over a period of 32 days and the fuel examined before and after for isotopic changes. Recording significant energy release beyond the capability of chemical reactions for the volume and significant isotopic changes, the authors declare the test a success. It will take some time to study and do it justice but I look forward to the more capable among us giving their initial impressions. While I sympathize with the disappointment regarding a lack of ‘fresh blood’ to the fight, please refrain from making unjustified attacks on those involved. I have no doubt that the material itself will provide enough meat for criticism. Make it constructive.

[[With thanks to Frank in the comments section]]

Posted by on October 8, 2014. Filed under Close Up,Hands-On,Rossi,Tests & Demos. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

8,968 Responses to Second HotCat Test Report – Updated

  1. Alexvs

    July 15, 2015 at 8:12 pm

    Look how arrogant and prepotent Rossi appears at JONP, saying that BOEING patent on nuclear propulsion has been inspired by his contraption.

    • Tony2

      July 15, 2015 at 8:49 pm

      Alex,

      Makes you want to smack him right in the snout, eh? That’s what it does to me when I see that dickweed spouting off but I’m a small, bitter, petty man and I expect that of myself. It’s good to see somebody else feeling maybe something like I feel. Maybe not at the same level of intensity because I really have envisioned myself tracking him down in some restaurant in Miami and accusing him of fraud while I throw a glass of cheap red wine in his face.

      Tony2

      • Alexvs

        July 16, 2015 at 6:45 am

        I share the indignation level whit you. Retrieved from Disqus:

        Discussion on E-Cat World 115 comments
        If You Were in Andrea Rossi’s Shoes, What Would You have Done? (Andy Kumar)
        Alex Ruiz
        Alex Ruiz a month ago Removed
        If I were in Rossi’s shoes… I would escape and hide where no one could find me.

        Funny, these went through filters:

        LENR and the Long March into Forgetfulness (Axil Axil)
        Alex Ruiz
        Alex Ruiz 16 days ago
        Do not forget the XVII century hungarian alquimist Brastord Vadlazy who destroyed his house and died while experimenting with what he called “charcoal”.

        Discussion on E-Cat World 3 comments
        What is LENR?
        Alex Ruiz
        Alex Ruiz Tracy Tynsky 5 days ago
        Very good intentions Mr. Tynsky. I wish you even better luck. May God bless you and your family.

        This one was addressed to Mr. Acland. I knew it would be banned:

        Alex Ruiz a month ago Removed
        Do you see? Mr. Tynsky will never had his 10 KW E-Cats. You and me know that he will never had it. He will never get positive responses, be at 10 KW as at 1 MW. Rossi mocks at everyone. At followers who post erratic and absurd theories and, what is more indignant, at gullible and ingenuous people who await an impossible advent.
        Sorry, it is hard, I know, but it is the very truth. And at this point of the story you should have gotten it.

        Brainwasher Acland overrolls Goebbels by far.

  2. Roger B

    July 15, 2015 at 10:44 pm

    LOL! You gotta love Rossi. A more narcissistic scumbag you will not meet. He thinks the Boeing laser engine is directly inspired by the work he’s doing!

  3. Alexvs

    July 16, 2015 at 7:09 am

    As I tried to post in ECW (Rossi Triggered the Giants?)

    If you compound an adequate soup of solitons, high energy protons and transition metal lattice LENR reveals for sure. However harnessing thermal or electric energy is a discovery that for the moment belongs to Rossi and only to Rossi.

    I have been definitively blacklisted

    We are unable to post your comment because you have been blocked by E-Cat World. Find out more.

    And Acland definitively qualified. Not that I be very sorry.

  4. Alexvs

    July 16, 2015 at 7:56 am

    This scoundrel…

    Alexvs
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    July 16th, 2015 at 1:51 AM
    Dear Mr. Rossi

    Whom did you met at Airbus? We have no notice of the meeting and we are interested upon the issue. Please address me directly by email.

    Regards

    Perhaps he asked the concierge for the hour.

  5. Roger B

    July 16, 2015 at 10:52 am

    Rossi needs to be placed in an iron maiden and have the juices drained out of him!

    But the guy who really gets my goat is Bob Greenyer from MFMP. What a frikkin’ moron. A bigger fool I have not come across. It would have been so simple for him to just get the same test apparatus from Celani or Piantelli, or whoever the frik, and just repeat their tests. Instead he’s been doing all these super stupid tests that have nothing to do with anything. Frikkin’ waste of time.

    • Frank

      July 16, 2015 at 12:44 pm

      Apropos “Waste of time”: What happened with all those “Parkomov powder” sachets, which he distributed months ago?
      From the MFMP facebook site, April 28th:

      “We have now actioned distribution of Parkhomov Ni powder from his 3 day run such that it is already in, or on its way to
      USA (10 sites)
      Sweden (2 sites)
      Norway
      Italy
      France
      Ukraine
      Czech Republic
      Russian Federation
      Those that don’t already have it in their possession, should do within 7-14 days – may could turn out to be quite an interesting month.”

      • Tony2

        July 16, 2015 at 1:06 pm

        Frank,

        Unfortunately, the “sachets” looked a lot like tea bags and were used as such by every single one of the researchers who received them. If you Google “spontaneous human combustion” you’ll see 10 new cases in the US; 2 in Sweden; and one each in every other country listed! Coincidence? Hardly. Powerful stuff indeed, this LENR!

        Tony2

        • Roger B

          July 16, 2015 at 10:58 pm

          Incorrect, the sachets were actually used tampons …

      • Jami

        July 16, 2015 at 1:34 pm

        Bet they were all shipped to places nowhere near as dry as Parhomov’s apartment in Mosow. So naturally they all didn’t work.

  6. Tony2

    July 16, 2015 at 3:39 pm

    What a steaming pile of horse shit this is. Should only be hours and this will turn up as a headline on ECW proclaiming Il Douche’s close ties with both companies and that one of them must be the entity hosting the current ecat test.

    Tony2

    “AlbertN
    July 15th, 2015 at 3:33 PM
    Dear Dr. Rossi,

    Concerning your meeting with BOEING and AIRBUS a few years ago, was there any serious interest on their part?

    I know that you cannot get into particulars but what CAN you tell us. I would guess that their ‘vision’ for this technology is not in accordance with yours.

    Warm Regards,
    Albert N.”

    “Andrea Rossi
    July 15th, 2015 at 5:20 PM
    Albert N.:
    The interest was serious, but I am bound to an NDA with both entities.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”

  7. Shane D.

    July 16, 2015 at 4:02 pm

    Now this is getting serious and extremely interesting. Brillouin Energy (BE) just launched their new website. Yes, I know that in itself means little, but the contents point to something to be taken seriously. Two things of note from that website:

    http://brillouinenergy.com/about/leadership/

    http://brillouinenergy.com/about/milestones/

    As you can can see BE has created a formidable team of scientists and well connected (Carl Page) investors. Doubtful all would have jumped on board without some confidence of the tech. Especially so the scientist and engineer types…all with decades of experience in product development, market launch and all obviously well pedigreed. Not mentioned on that page is David Sloan -patent attorney and high energy physicist who joined BE early on after being convinced, but elsewhere he is mentioned as still part of the team.

    For those in the leadership that didn’t bother to do their own due diligence, there is ample information available from SRI apparently as the “Milestone” page shows. And the website does state that proprietary info is available with proper NDAs, which of course this “leadership” team would have been privy too.

    As you may recall, SRI is the gold standard for vetting LENR technologies. Their research facility has literally written the book on LENR calorimetry. If they say it’s LENR…well then it is. So it is real as far as I am concerned…the low temp system has a COP2, and high temp a COP4.

    By the way, SRI is the same place where in 1993 Garwin (Popeye’s buddy 🙂 ) visited, in his crusade to debunk LENR and instead walked away frustrated because he couldn’t find fault with the experiments, nor SRIs results.

    I also like how BE says they “have developed and engineered” the two systems. Development is often abused by LENR+ types to stretch out the timeline. Here they have committed by mentioning engineering too.

    Lots of interesting stuff in there. Sounds as if they are ready, or very near so, to start selling the tech for others (OEM) to further develop and market.

    Rossi has acted every bit the scammer. Easy target and deserving of the ridicule he has encountered. BE has been more difficult to nail down, as they have from the beginning acted as a perfectly legit company. Yes, their name sparks laughter from the physics types, and their theory even more so…but other than that they have been what one would expect from a new company developing a real product. That brings to mind also that they were just listed as one of the companies to watch.

      • tyy

        July 19, 2015 at 4:28 am

        You gotta be a true moron to take BE seriously.

    • Jami

      July 16, 2015 at 4:38 pm

      You haven’t been cured. You now just show slightly different symptoms of the same disease.

      • Shane D.

        July 16, 2015 at 5:06 pm

        Come now Jami, is that a constructive dialogue? Sometimes I just don’t know what to do with you pessimists. You are so, well…pessimistic.

        So let’s start over; what exactly is it that I said that you find fault with? The highly qualified leadership team, SRI, Garwin, or what?

        • Jami

          July 16, 2015 at 5:44 pm

          “… constructive dialogue?”

          Gave up on those long ago with you believers. Just do your homework. Google Profusion Energy inc for a start and tell me how this is different from Rossi. Same shit – only Godes started a little earlier.

    • Asterix

      July 16, 2015 at 5:35 pm

      Progress indeed! They spelled “pulse” correctly.

      So, from their photo of their new home unit, can one assume that they have a contract to sell Utica boilers (from whom they “borrowed” the image)?

      • Shane D.

        July 16, 2015 at 6:23 pm

        You wouldn’t have put the ? mark after your post were you not thinking what I’m thinking: that BE photoshopped their name onto a Utica Boiler, because they are a customer of BE…now would you? 😉

        Hey you never know!

        • Asterix

          July 16, 2015 at 10:10 pm

          Not so much that, but just wondering if the folks at Utica might have qualms about someone using their artwork without permission.

          D’ya think someone should tell them?

          • Shane D.

            July 16, 2015 at 10:46 pm

            Nah Asterix…let’s not tell Utica yet. Let me enjoy this just a little while longer. Go to sleep tonight thinking this is all real, just like the good old days.

            When I awake, then yes, maybe someone can tell them. You never know, they may say: “that’s fine, we are partners”.

          • popeye

            July 16, 2015 at 11:09 pm

            Over on Lenr-forum, BE has admitted the image was only an “example of what it could look like”.

          • Asterix

            July 17, 2015 at 5:29 am

            Over on Lenr-forum, BE has admitted the image was only an “example of what it could look like”.

            …if it “could” work. For those curious, here’s the patent application, changing protons to neutrons via his “Q Pulse” box.

    • popeye

      July 16, 2015 at 7:02 pm

      For those in the leadership that didn’t bother to do their own due diligence, there is ample information available from SRI apparently as the “Milestone” page shows. And the website does state that proprietary info is available with proper NDAs, which of course this “leadership” team would have been privy too.

      Remember how believers like ransom and you and maris and hopeful made this argument about the ecat because Darden and IH would have had access to proprietary info?

      And then Darden got up and said he wasn’t even optimistic about the ecat when he gave them money: “we were willing to invest time and resources to see if this might be an area of useful research in our quest to eliminate pollution. At the time we were not especially optimistic, but the global benefits were compelling.”

      Venture capitalists take risks. It’s the nature of the beast.

      • Shane D.

        July 16, 2015 at 7:42 pm

        Results from all of Brillouin Energy’s experimental tests run at its facilities to date, are available for review under customary NDAs to current and prospective investors, original equipment manufacturers, licensees, strategic partners and engineering representatives. Please contact: info “at” brillouinenergy.com.

        This is from the new website. Not much wiggle room, if any, they give themselves Popeye. Anyone interested, including “strategic partners”…which would be the present leadership, have/had access to available experimental data. It must be convincing.

        And that data is not only produced by SRI, but according to BE, double checked by other independent sources. It’s vetted. Couldn’t get much more solid than that as far as LENR goes.

        In hindsight it appears Darden may have used TPR1 as his due diligence. Not his fault he trusted 7 scientists with weak resumes. They looked good on paper. Who would have thought? Anyways it looks like he missed out on the real deal.

        • popeye

          July 16, 2015 at 8:16 pm

          Shane wrote:

          This is from the new website. Not much wiggle room, if any, they give themselves Popeye. Anyone interested, including “strategic partners”…which would be the present leadership, have/had access to available experimental data. It must be convincing.

          1. Are you suggesting Darden and Vaughn did not have access to Rossi’s experimental data? Because they invested even though they were not especially optimistic.

          2. Have you read reports written by Godes containing his experimental data? It is as impenetrable as his theory. I very much doubt any of them availed themselves of the “data”, and if they did, understood it. Their confidence, I suspect, is based on the same sort of bloviated reports Godes gives at conferences and in interviews.

          You’re not gonna convince skeptics of LENR by citing claims by companies trying to make money, even if they have people vouching for them who are also trying to make money. It’s a conflict of interest.

          Let me know when you have something more than metadata.

          And that data is not only produced by SRI, but according to BE, double checked by other independent sources. It’s vetted. Couldn’t get much more solid than that as far as LENR goes.

          “…according to BE”; “…. Rossi says”

          I agree, you almost certainly can’t get more solid than that for LENR.

          To get more solid than that requires a phenomenon that is real.

          In hindsight it appears Darden may have used TPR1 as his due diligence. Not his fault he trusted 7 scientists with weak resumes. They looked good on paper. Who would have thought? Anyways it looks like he missed out on the real deal.

          “Who would have thought?” Essentially everyone, except for members of the cult of half-wits.

    • Roger B

      July 16, 2015 at 10:59 pm

      I don’t believe those scumbags at Brilldum as far as I can throw them. All they’ve done is take investor money and have NOTHING to show for it. These scams must be stopped.

      • JKW

        July 16, 2015 at 11:59 pm

        Yeah, OK, green. So, you surfaced back? I thought so. Shit floats.

        • JohnP

          July 17, 2015 at 12:20 am

          Makes one wonder. At this moment of LENR, Rossi and Brillouin’s unstoppable triumph, Nobel Prizes and riches unimaginable dropping on them like the gentle rain from heaven, what possible reason could Green have to come here and read what left-behind, mediaeval, close-minded skeptics have to say?

          No reason to be angry at all, Greenie. Pop the bubbly, your side won!

          And piss off.

      • Roger B

        July 17, 2015 at 12:34 am

        Guys, I’m not Greenwin. I have nothing to do with him. I hope you sue this believer.

        • Shane D.

          July 17, 2015 at 12:45 am

          In that case, don’t you think accusing them of being scumbags is a little premature?

          They have done nothing at all like Rossi. Good little boys and girls who have behaved themselves. Not a one felon in the lot.

          • Roger B

            July 17, 2015 at 12:51 am

            Yes they have. They’ve taken money from investors and provided zilch evidence for their claims. Show us the evidence.

            You say they are nothing like Rossi except they too are trying to hide behind “names” to bolster investment.

            This is just another big scam on their part.

    • JohnP

      July 17, 2015 at 12:35 am

      According to BE, their system works “through a sequence of continuous and controlled nuclear reactions.”

      I’m pretty sure that the U.S. Government would have no issue with BE selling nuclear reactors to the general public.

      I can see the CEO of BE telling a government inspector: “Well, actually, whoever wrote that copy is… not credible!”

  8. popeye

    July 16, 2015 at 5:41 pm

    Shane wrote:

    Brillouin Energy (BE) just launched their new website.

    …complete with pictures of boilers photoshopped with their logo.

    As you can can see BE has created a formidable team of scientists and well connected (Carl Page) investors.

    Hardly formidable scientists. Not one has a background in the most relevant field. None of them have even corrected Godes’s woefully wrong idea about what a Brillouin zone even is, let alone his laughable theory. And unless I did the calculation wrong, his claim of powering 30,000 houses for a year on a glass of water is wrong by a factor of 100.

    Brillouin is not the first bogus company to list educated scientists on their roster. People seem to be willing to accept money to let their names be used. Go figure.

    Doubtful all would have jumped on board without some confidence of the tech.

    All they need to jump on board is some confidence that there is money to be made. And Godes has a demonstrated record of attracting money. Unfortunately, no record in proving LENR to the world.

    Even so, some of them may have confidence in the technology, but there is no reason to have confidence in their judgement when it comes to evaluating scientific revolutions.

    For those in the leadership that didn’t bother to do their own due diligence, there is ample information available from SRI apparently as the “Milestone” page shows. And the website does state that proprietary info is available with proper NDAs, which of course this “leadership” team would have been privy too.

    So, as usual, there must be information proving LENR is real. We just can’t see it yet.

    [SRI’s] research facility has literally written the book on LENR calorimetry.

    Considering the dismal quality of calorimetry in essentially every recent LENR claim, this is a damning evaluation.

    If they say it’s LENR…well then it is.

    Proof by assertion? They’ve said a lot of things are LENR, and you may believe they are. But still nothing has come of any of it, and the most pedigreed scientists don’t believe it.

    So it is real as far as I am concerned…the low temp system has a COP2, and high temp a COP4.

    My usual objection: If they have a COP of 4, they could make it self-sustaining. Why haven’t they?

    By the way, SRI is the same place where in 1993 Garwin (Popeye’s buddy  ) visited, in his crusade to debunk LENR and instead walked away frustrated because he couldn’t find fault with the experiments, nor SRIs results.

    If he was frustrated (and I don’t think he was), it was because the levels were too low to rule out artifacts, of which he suggested several possibilities.

    Anyway, 5 years later in McKubre’s big report to the EPRI, he admitted he had spoken too soon of the merits of LENR. As far as I know, that was the end of the EPRI’s support of McKubre’s work, which he essentially abandoned in favor of becoming a verifier for hire. He says he got tired of trying to “science cold fusion”, but that’s an obvious excuse for his failure to do it. So, it would seem, Garwin’s skepticism of McKubre’s results has been vindicated.

    Sounds as if they are ready, or very near so, to start selling the tech for others (OEM) to further develop and market.

    It has sounded that way for more than a decade. Unfortunately good news in the LENR world always “sounds” like something is about to happen. It is never about something unequivocal that *has* happened.

    Yes, their name sparks laughter from the physics types, and their theory even more so…but other than that they have been what one would expect from a new company developing a real product.

    It may be what you would expect, but I’m not aware of any legitimate companies (with legitimate products) that have developed a new product over 15 years or more, based on an unproven revolutionary phenomenon, justified by a laughable theory, and continual unfulfilled promises. On the other hand, illegitimate companies following this trajectory are commonplace (BLP, Energetics, Lattice Energy, GEC, Star Scientific). Perhaps you can list some examples of legitimate companies that fit this mold.

    • Roger B

      July 17, 2015 at 12:31 am

      On BSE’s site they are saying you can received the results of their “independent tests” provided you sign an NDA.

      Results from all of Brillouin Energy’s experimental tests run at its facilities to date, are available for review under customary NDAs to current and prospective investors, original equipment manufacturers, licensees, strategic partners and engineering representatives. Please contact: info “at” brillouinenergy.com.

      http://brillouinenergy.com/science/experimental-results/

      Can someone take them up on their offer?

      • Asterix

        July 17, 2015 at 6:13 pm

        The problem with BSE is that the fundamental principle of the “boiler’ operation is utter nonsense–that, somehow, by applying specially-shaped electrical pulses to a vessel containing water, one can transform the protons in the water into (heavier) neutrons. There has never been any verification of anything like this occurring at any time, much less the “fusion” event that’s supposed to provide the yottawatts of energy.

        If one were to accept the primary premise that someone one can take “Q-pulses” and manufacture neutrons from protons, that would leave the question of why Godes and his crew have survived years of neutron bombardment…

        I’d put the (now pretty quiet) proponents of “sonofusion through cavitation” at Nanospire in the same category, despite their unproven claims of radiation sickness.

  9. Shane D.

    July 17, 2015 at 12:40 am

    http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/home/mfmp-blog/495-major-revelation-from-francesco-celani-lends-strong-support-to-mfmps-early-constantan-wire-research-results

    I’d started thinking Celani may be a bit dishonest. or maybe inept, due his earlier COP claims not matching (higher than) what MFMP found during their replication attempts. This link shows though that he wondered himself about how this could happen, probably very embarrassed, and did a thorough investigation of the matter.

    He found an NI instrument underestimated power-in at the 2012 NI public demo he did, followed a little later at the same demo done at ICCF13. Turns out MFMP was right. COPs 0-12.5. Celani recalculated the old COPs accordingly. Gives me a new impression of him. True scientist. Hope he doesn’t lose his job after all.

    This also shows how precise MFMP has gotten. In a very short time they have honed their calorimetry, and intuitive skills. Just like SRI…when one day they announce it’s LENR, by golly it will be.

    • Roger B

      July 17, 2015 at 1:01 am

      No Shane. It’s not going to happen. Been waiting a long time and those morons at MFMP, though honest, are morons nonetheless.

      They could have simply replicated Piantelli’s experiment but chose to do a million different things instead. If MFMP wanted they could have proven the LENR debate once and for all back in 2011. Instead they chose to continue faffing around with nonsensical tests.

      • Shane D.

        July 17, 2015 at 3:35 am

        Roger,

        Just a little history:

        MFMP courted Piantelli for some time. Piantelli did finally acquiesce and accepted a meeting near his headquarters. The meeting was very exciting according to both parties. A deal was made to cooperate, but after Piantelli went back to the office (NichEnergy) he reneged. Supposedly under pressure from “the investors” because he was giving away too much.

        As a face saving move he offered MFMP enough info to replicate an earlier primitive version of their reactor. MFMP accepted so as not to embarrass the old, fragile, man.

        Long story short, they had nothing from Piantelli to replicate really. And MFMP didn’t “faff around with nonsensical tests” after that.

        • Roger B

          July 17, 2015 at 8:45 am

          Shane, just a bit of reality.

          This whole BS business with Piantelli has been going on for 4 years. As of yet MFMP have not produced even a milliwatt of excess heat. Piantelli has been leading Bob and his band of morons on a merry chase for nothing. Worse yet Bob has conned a bunch of people into donating money for his wasteful endeavours.

    • Jami

      July 17, 2015 at 6:37 am

      “True scientist”

      Oh yes. If you lift your feet in the air right now, you’ll probably discover that they no longer touch the ground. You could then write a paper about anti-gravity. It’ll be a little anecdotal but never mind. You could then discover that your ass is still firmly planted on your chair and you could speculate that a certain amount of your wheight therefore isn’t accounted for by your anti-gravity discovery. You could publicly admit that and, sure as hell, some moron somewhere will call you a “true scientist” because of it.

    • popeye

      July 17, 2015 at 2:47 pm

      Shane wrote:

      He found an NI instrument underestimated power-in at the 2012 NI public demo he did, … Gives me a new impression of him. True scientist. Hope he doesn’t lose his job after all.

      Good grief, Shane. It’s a measure of electrical power. How many times have believers insisted this is the easiest thing to measure, and there is no way anyone could get it wrong. And in this case, as I remember, there were NI engineers present.

      A far more plausible explanation is that Celani was bullshitting then, and he’s bullshitting now to save face in light of the MFMP measurements. And incredibly, with the likes of you, it works.

      This also shows how precise MFMP has gotten. In a very short time they have honed their calorimetry, …

      And yet, in their various dog-bone replication attempts, their calorimetry — measuring isolated temperatures — can hardly be dignified with the name of calorimetry.

      While they are probably sincere, their thinking is so wooly, they remain highly susceptible to suggestion and confirmation bias, so that it would not be surprising, as they continue their bumbling experiments, if they stumble on an artifact that they can incorrectly attribute to LENR. Eventually they may ferret out the artifact, but not before the cult has celebrated their faux victory yet again…

      An example of such wooly thinking is in the “cold fusion is back” thread on ECW. Proposals to use Iwamura type experiments for nuclear waste remediation are pipe dreams, quite apart from the question of whether LENR is real. In 15 years, Iwamura has never even claimed a single transmutation from or to a radioactive isotope, which if present would be detectable at orders of magnitude better sensitivity and specificity. Instead, all the claimed transmutations are between stable isotopes, using comparatively insensitive techniques, easily misinterpreted, and with necessary (radioactive) intermediates completely absent, and without a single quantitative replication. If he can transmute radioactive isotopes, why wouldn’t he demonstrate it?

      Then there is the question of rates. Even if his claims were valid, and even if he could tailor them for radioactive isotopes, the rates he claims for the energy spent would make waste remediation less feasible than hot fusion. And in 15 years, there has been no indication of scaling up or tailoring the method.

      But that doesn’t stop the likes of GreenWin and Greenyer from anticipating revolution…

      • Shane D.

        July 17, 2015 at 4:59 pm

        You make a good point Popeye. Maybe that is why his boss at INFN has been trying to defund his lab.

  10. Andy Kumar

    July 17, 2015 at 6:10 am

    Shane says: “Just like SRI…when one day they announce it’s LENR, by golly it will be.”

    That is exactly how it is going to happen. But it will be Rossi (not SRI)doing the announcing.

    My optics book started with this little bit of ancient wisdom – “… God said let there be light, and there was light!”

  11. JNewman

    July 17, 2015 at 7:33 am

    How is it that believers are so positive that LENR exists when they can’t cite a single convincing example of it? Oh right. One hundred flaky, irreproducible, and discredited reports are just as compelling. That’s what faith is all about.

    • Roger B

      July 17, 2015 at 8:48 am

      These believers are the same time of idiots who believed Jim Jones was the Messiah. In fact wouldn’t it be great if Rossi proclaimed as such, and he and his believers could perform a mass suicide. We’d be rid of them once and for all!

      • JKW

        July 17, 2015 at 2:07 pm

        You OK, “Roger B”? Did you take your pills today?

        • JohnP

          July 17, 2015 at 5:59 pm

          Actually, ethanol is Greenie’s favourite medicine.

        • Roger B

          July 19, 2015 at 9:16 am

          Just medicinal marijuana …

  12. Jami

    July 17, 2015 at 8:03 pm

    Over on dummyworld the usual bunch of braindead morons get all excited about Rossi not only selling no e-cats but not selling any heat either. Or maybe he will. Perfect strategy in a way. Not because heat can be useful (something they are collectively in the process of finding out – a gazillion years after the rest of mankind, but still…) but because selling heat is something you can do without having a working LENR reactor – so success would be asured (if anybody would ever buy heat from Rossi which, of course, nobody would). Is hydrofusion’s offer for selling heat in Sweden still active?

    (just checked and, sure enough, it is still there… “late fall 2013”)

    • JohnP

      July 18, 2015 at 7:54 pm

      The Hydrofusion that’s trying to sell heat from a 1MW plant is not the Hydrofusion that wasn’t able to give away a 1MW plant, right?

      • Shane D.

        July 18, 2015 at 9:46 pm

        JohnP,

        Yes, they are one and the same Hydrofusion. However, they weren’t really giving away a 1MW 2 years ago, as they were going to “sell” the power to said customer. Exactly what they offered again the other day.

        Also, back then when they went hunting for customers, they found no shortage of takers. As I recall, they claimed 10 or so companies were interested, and chose the more suitable of the bunch for the task. They were in advanced planning stages to install when IH…who had just attained certain rights to the Ecat, supposedly nixed the deal.

        After which they (IH/Leonardo) started the buyout of licensees. It was thought Hydrofusion took the offer, but apparently they didn’t.

        • JohnP

          July 18, 2015 at 10:36 pm

          So, Shane, Rossi spent 16 hours a day in the “secret military customer” 1MW plant before being willing to spend 16 hours a day in the Hydrofusion plant, preparing to spend 16 hours a day in the IH plant?

          While doing all the indipendent tests, buying condos and answering JONP?

          The Dr. must be on a meth drip.

          Shane, if you had a REAL, WORKING E-cat, where would you invest your money? Miami real estate = 5% return. E-cat = 100.000% return.

          • Shane D.

            July 18, 2015 at 11:22 pm

            Military customer was BS. Months after the 1MW acceptance test for the military colonel, during which time Rossi was telling us it was gone, working well, etc. some article showed it still sitting in his garage. When asked about that, Rossi said he was changing the gaskets out upon request of the customer, and once done THEN it would be shipped. Clearly lied his ass off.

            When Rossi bought the condo’s that was the first time I went…hmmm. What that told me was that either he lacked confidence in his Ecat, or he was an outright scammer.

        • John Milstone

          July 19, 2015 at 3:45 pm

          They were in advanced planning stages to install when IH…who had just attained certain rights to the Ecat, supposedly nixed the deal.

          As I recall, it was Rossi, and only Rossi, who claimed that mean old IH wouldn’t deliver the Megawatt E-Cats. I don’t remember seeing anything that even suggested that Hydrofusion ever heard from IH directly.

          What I continue to find astonishing is that the “True Believers” ignore that Rossi undeniably did claim that the Megawatt E-Cats were being sold as of January 2012, with a 4-month delivery date.

          Certainly, Hydrofusion, with their signed franchise agreement stating that they could sell Megawatt E-Cats by mid-2012, had every reason to believe that the Megawatt E-Cat was a product years ago. I wonder how they feel about Rossi’s current claims that he’s just testing a prototype now, years later?

  13. Daniel Maris

    July 17, 2015 at 10:24 pm

    Oh-oh…the “plague” has spread to Iceland now.

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/07/17/icelandic-monitor-features-lenr-research/#comments

    How long before some bigwig in the APS falls prey to the infection? And then where will be?

  14. popeye

    July 17, 2015 at 11:02 pm

    Maris wrote:

    Oh-oh…the “plague” has spread to Iceland now.

    Different condition. Rossi and his ilk claim heat from light hydrogen in metal hydrides, and no energetic particles.

    This is a claim of energetic particles with deuterium only. So far, no measurement of excess heat.

    How can things so different be the same?

    How long before some bigwig in the APS falls prey to the infection? And then where will be?

    I thought that already happened in 2009, when APS member and university VP (i.e. bigwig) Duncan went on TV to declare cold fusion alive and well.

    And what came of that? Well, 6 years later, and nothing yet… except for continued periodic ad hoc, one-off claims (and not from the Duncan contingent) to keep the cult members’ dreams alive.

    • Roger B

      July 18, 2015 at 11:29 pm

      You tell em Popeye! These believers needs to be schooled.

      • Daniel Maris

        July 19, 2015 at 3:13 am

        Happy to be schooled as long as you lot are prepared to admit that many perhaps most of you were predicting this would all shut down in a few weeks of the last independent test. Everyone rewrites history but few admit it.

        Just out of interest – what is your prediction these days? That false LENR claims backed by qualified scientists will carry on in perpetuity at the same rate as now? At a diminishing rate? At an increasing rate (as we have seen over the last year)?

        • popeye

          July 19, 2015 at 6:14 am

          Maris wrote:

          Happy to be schooled as long as you lot are prepared to admit that many perhaps most of you were predicting this would all shut down in a few weeks of the last independent test.

          When I accuse you of getting it wrong, I provide citations. I don’t know about the rest of the lot, but you will not find a prediction from me that it would all shut down within a few weeks of anything. I’ve been predicting years of the same since 2011. All these guys have to do is keep promising another test, or the completion of one, or another revision of the product, or whatever, and the cult falls to their knees. BLP has kept their con going for more than 20 years, with no end in sight.

          Just out of interest – what is your prediction these days?

          My prediction is the same as always: there will never be a working ecat in the wild, but believers will probably keep on believing for years to come. It could end like Defkalion, or it could persist like BE and BLP.

          That false LENR claims backed by qualified scientists will carry on in perpetuity at the same rate as now? At a diminishing rate? At an increasing rate (as we have seen over the last year)?

          If the past 26 years tell us anything, it’s that it is almost certain that false LENR claims will carry on for years, although probably not in perpetuity. They will continue diminishing as they have been for 26 years, and continue to approach oblivion asymptotically.

          Any sense you have that there has been an increase in the last year is the delusion of the present. True believers always have the impression things are increasing at the present, but actual metrics over time don’t bear that out, the simplest being publications in refereed journals, which have dropped from > 50 per year in the 90s, to single digits in the naughts, to around one new experimental claim per year, and even fewer refereed claims of excess heat per year.

          And yes, I know about the Indian journal with a special issue. It’s like the LENR Sourcebooks from 2010 and 2011 or so. Officially, it’s a refereed journal, but once an editor decides to have a special issue, the refereeing becomes meaningless, or the issue would be empty. They simply get the authors to review each others’ papers, ensuring acceptance. Moreover, the journal’s impact factor is about 0.7 as I remember, and most of the papers are comments or reviews or retrospectives. And the few experimental papers report years-old data. Looking through that issue, it should be obvious to anyone that the field is dying an agonizingly slow death.

          And besides the decrease in volume, the quality of the scientist has been falling at an even faster rate. In the early days, there were people like Pons and Fleischmann and Bockris and peripheral interest from Schwinger and even Rubbia. Now, you get people without any relevant background at all, like Rossi, Dardik, Mills, Godes, or you get Parkhomov doing experiments in soup pots in his kitchen. Duncan is a rare exception, but since he got involved in 2009, I’m not aware of a single refereed paper or anything related to him claiming new positive results.

          Sorry, Maris, part of being deluded about LENR is being sure that something great is just around the corner. You should be getting used to being continually wrong.

          So, what’s your prediction… this time. I will enjoy throwing it back at you when you are wrong.

        • tyy

          July 19, 2015 at 7:02 am

          Uh oh.. who is qualified?

          No matter, really, education does not protect from illusions. Some educated people even believe in all sorts of imaginary things, god even.

          Now, LENR has turned into a religion. Who could say how long it stays around.

          Rossi is getting old. One day he dies and takes his heavenly secrets with him. There you have it.

          My prediction is,that this b.s. will go on for many, many years.

          And with no results what so ever.

          • JNewman

            July 19, 2015 at 7:30 am

            LENR believers are certain that it is real despite the fact that there is not a single convincing piece of evidence for it. Therefore, whenever any particular claim or report is discredited, it does not matter. They simply move on to the next one. On this basis, the cult will go on indefinitely,

          • tyy

            July 19, 2015 at 7:57 am

            This opens up a childish mind of a true believer:

            http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/06/29/lenr-and-the-long-march-into-forgetfulness-axil-axil/

            Could you actually be more naive than this?

          • Al Potenza

            July 20, 2015 at 6:58 pm

            Rossi relies on investors, not believers. I think those are going to run out. How long it takes, nobody knows. Steorn’s 21 million Euro sheep farmers are apparently still at it after 9 years of the only product from Steorn being contempt and sarcasm!

        • John Milstone

          July 19, 2015 at 3:27 pm

          Happy to be schooled as long as you lot are prepared to admit that many perhaps most of you were predicting this would all shut down in a few weeks of the last independent test.

          Nonsense.

          I’ve been pointing out since 2011 that Rossi is closely following the example of John Worrell Keely, who ran his scam for over 20 years.

          Others, including Joseph Newman, Carl Tilley, Madison priest and Randell Mills (of Blacklight Power) all have (or did) run their scams for years or decades, as I have been pointing out repeatedly over the years.

          If Rossi were legit, we would have confirmation from someone stating that the E-Cat really worked. Instead, after half a decade, we have lies about UniBo and NI working with Rossi, and we have “secret” experts (secret NATO Colonel), and we have “secret” customers, and we have supposedly independent tests that were done in secret, all by the same person (Levi), and all fatally flawed.

          Maris, it really is sad to see you demonstrate your continued cluelessness. How many more years of looking for the pea under the cup before you finally realize that you’re being played?

      • JKW

        July 19, 2015 at 4:18 am

        Green, you are such a predictable piece of ecat waste. Could not hold your reins, again? Looks like shit will always float despite how much of Rossi’s agenda you try to pump into it.

        • Roger B

          July 19, 2015 at 9:13 am

          Is Daniel Maris really Greenwin?

  15. Katses J

    July 19, 2015 at 9:12 am

    Can someone explain to my there are so many LENR researchers? Why are so many prominent scientists putting their reputations on the line and 1) admitting they are researching LENR and 2) publishing results which will open them up for ridicule?

    • JNewman

      July 19, 2015 at 9:29 am

      In what way are any of these scientists prominent other than among LENR cult members?

    • JKW

      July 19, 2015 at 1:30 pm

      Prominent scientists putting their reputations on the line? Name one.

    • popeye

      July 19, 2015 at 3:35 pm

      Can someone explain to my there are so many LENR researchers? Why are so many prominent scientists putting their reputations on the line and 1) admitting they are researching LENR and 2) publishing results which will open them up for ridicule?

      Really? You find that difficult to understand? Surely you understand the magnitude of the implications of cold fusion if it were real. And if it were real, the people involved in bringing it to the world, would be showered with honor, glory, fame, and wealth (especially because it is now widely dismissed). That’s the simplest motivation there is. Storms was explicit: “many of us were lured into believing that the Pons-Fleischmann effect would solve the world’s energy problems and make us all rich”.

      So, of course, they have to believe there is at least a chance it is real, but it’s common enough for “prominent” scientists to get hooked by this sort of thing, it’s been given a name: pathological science. A subject like polywater was given far more mainstream legitimacy, being published in Science and Nature and in all the best specialized journals, before it was shown to be bogus. Other topics, like homeopathy and creationism are far more difficult to “prove” bogus, and therefore persist with “prominent” support for decades or centuries. Cold fusion, with its wide variety of forms and conflicting claims, is highly resistant to “proof” that it is bogus, and will therefore disappear only by attrition, and not for a long time yet.

      And there really aren’y any truly prominent scientists in the field anymore. Many scientists, like Pons, Gozzi, Will, have abandoned the field, even if they haven’t denounced it. And most of the remaining have been in the field from the beginning (Hagelstein, Miley, Storms, McKubre, Celani, Piantelli…). I suspect some of these guys just don’t want to admit their folly, and know full well they probably won’t have to, even if (as is almost certainly the case) it really is bogus. New recruits with relevant qualifications and any significant prominence are rare indeed.

      The more important question for believers is how to explain so many many more prominent scientists (more numerous and much more prominent, including many Nobel laureates) putting their far greater reputations at risk by dismissing cold fusion as baloney. They are surely aware that if it were real, vindication would be inevitable.

      When scientists thought there might be something to cold fusion in 1989, they went wild for it, with probably thousands of scientists around the world getting busy, hoping to make a contribution to the revolution. The only explanation for the dismissal now is near certainty that there is nothing to it. Any suggestion of protection of the status quo is complete nonsense, as 1989 proved unequivocally.

      • Roger B

        July 19, 2015 at 11:48 pm

        Nicely said Popeye.

    • JohnP

      July 19, 2015 at 7:22 pm

      Kaises J, you will find out that the percentage of physicists who support LENR is grossly similar to the percentage of climatologists who deny global warming and the percentage of geologists who believe that the Earth is 6K years old.

      There are not that many, but they’re noisier. And news.

    • Roger B

      July 19, 2015 at 11:47 pm

      Katses J, you need to get it through your thick believer mind that these scientists are delusional. They are biased from the get go and never once use proper calorimetry for any measurements. Just look at the morons at MFMP. They’ve had numerous opportunities to do ONE SIMPLE TEST but instead choose to do all sorts of random, nonsensical tests.

  16. tyy

    July 19, 2015 at 10:06 am

    Finally got banned from the LENR Forum. I cannot understand, AlainCo is my best pal …

    http://pathoskeptic.com/2015/07/19/banned-again/

  17. John Milstone

    July 19, 2015 at 3:13 pm

    Good news, everybody!

    Even “True Believers” occasionally come to their senses:

    http://news.discovery.com/animals/loch-ness-monster-hunter-hooked-on-catfish-theory-150717.htm

    • Jami

      July 19, 2015 at 5:13 pm

      Hardly. As I read it, he is prepared to keep looking another decade or two – only this time for a monster catfish rather than a more unspecified monster. Even if he ever spots one, he’ll probably argue that it doesn’t quite fit the detailed description given by Paula Nancy Jennings of Greenbridge Essex England in May 1965 because at least one the three penises will most likely be missing.

      • JKW

        July 19, 2015 at 5:49 pm

        The guy is a real nut job. According to CNN: “In 1991, he sold his home and left his job and girlfriend in pursuit of Nessie. He lives in what he describes as an ex-mobile library van at Dores Beach on Loch Ness.”
        This is almost like Gen. Zaroff, who lives in a van by the river.

        • John Milstone

          July 19, 2015 at 11:37 pm

          He moved from a crazy theory to a reasonable one. In at least this respect, he’s no longer a nut job. This would be like any of the LENR “True Believers” deciding that the most likely explanation for LENR is faulty measurements and confirmation bias.

          BTW, here’s a picture of a Wels catfish:

          LINK

          • Jami

            July 20, 2015 at 1:30 pm

            Wow. That is some fish. But does it “tick all the boxes”? He’ll find out, soon. Or he won’t.

        • Roger B

          July 19, 2015 at 11:52 pm

          Perhaps he was looking at mating with Nessie …

  18. Tony2

    July 20, 2015 at 12:25 am

    Big headline over at the nuthouse:

    “Leonardo Corp. Looking to Sell E-Cat Heat at Customer Sites (Update: Rossi Confirms and Comments)”

    So, again, I have to ask: Just what are we supposed to believe IH bought? Or have they already exited the stage and AR is just priming the pump to announce he split with IH because their business philosophy didn’t match his heat-selling, licensee-driven philosophy since AR alludes to “Territories” where this heat will be available. And nary a question about IH from what I can see.

    Tony2

    • John Milstone

      July 20, 2015 at 1:24 am

      Hey, I know!

      He can sell “franchises” to all the nations in the world!

      After all, the last set of “franchises” are expiring right about now.

    • Roger B

      July 20, 2015 at 4:28 am

      Please note: All heat is hot air generated by Andrea Rossi.

    • Shane D.

      July 20, 2015 at 5:01 am

      Just a mere 3 months ago at ICCF19, Darden confirmed that IH had acquired certain rights to the Ecat. So unless something happened in that short period of time since, they are probably still part and parcel of the Ecat saga.

      How much a part…who knows? However, rumor has it that we will know the answer to that soon.

      • Roger B

        July 20, 2015 at 5:38 am

        We’ve been waiting for 5 years Shane. As of yet we’ve seen jack crap evidence.

        All the believers do is clutch at straws.

        • JohnP

          July 20, 2015 at 7:01 am

          Right on, Roger! Believers are amazingly stupid. Can you believe that they want to eliminate the Grid, a bare necessity if solar replaces coal?

          And they are against nuclear power, something that can tidy us up until something better comes up.

          Good that you don’t belong to that group.

          • Roger B

            July 20, 2015 at 9:57 am

            I’m all for nuclear power. I like some of the research being done on FBRs.

        • Shane D.

          July 20, 2015 at 3:34 pm

          Look on the bright side JohnP…we are 5 years closer to the end. 🙂

          • JohnP

            July 20, 2015 at 8:06 pm

            Actually, Shane, no. We skeptics are guilty of engaging in magical thinking as much as believers do.

            We believe that once Rossi is unmasked scams are going to cease. No way. A certain percentage of the population is genetically programmed to believe, and believe they will. No matter how outrageous the scam is, someone WILL believe in it.

            Rossi supporters would never believe something so obvious a scam as the QEG, and QEG believers would recoil in horror at being bunched up with Keshe believers.

            And Keshe believers, I guess, scoff at LENR because it’s useless at powering flying saucers. Full circle…

    • Jami

      July 20, 2015 at 1:40 pm

      “And nary a question about IH from what I can see.”

      Why would they when it is so much more fun to imagine applications for heat. The world can’t do that on its own. Brilliant suggestions like “you could heat up a swimming pool at the olympics” is something the planet simply can’t come up with without dummyworld. If I wasn’t banned, I’d add to the pile by suggesting that not only olympic swimming pools could benefit from being heated, but also the ones used for world championships (see – yet another reason for LENR). It is almost as stupid as Axil suggesting that his latest (this week’s) favourite LENR theory involving the Rossi AND Papp effects simultaneously would be ideally suited to running desalination pumps in southern California. Who would have thought that there are so many applications for something like energy? I hope they keep that knowledge base updated – or LENR will be real one day in the future and nobody would have the faintest idea what to do with it.

  19. NTAK

    July 20, 2015 at 4:21 pm

    I already own a device that creates excess heat, it also makes toast.

  20. Al Potenza

    July 20, 2015 at 5:30 pm

    Just a mere 3 months ago at ICCF19, Darden confirmed that IH had acquired certain rights to the Ecat. So unless something happened in that short period of time since, they are probably still part and parcel of the Ecat saga.

    How much a part…who knows? However, rumor has it that we will know the answer to that soon.

    Where is this rumor? Where from? Did you just make it up? What are you suggesting IH will do next since they have done absolutely nothing of note as of now?

    • Jami

      July 20, 2015 at 6:43 pm

      They don’t have sarcasm on Betelgeuse?

      • Al Potenza

        July 20, 2015 at 6:56 pm

        Yeah but from The Shane?

        • Jami

          July 20, 2015 at 7:03 pm

          Give him SOME credit.

          • Al Potenza

            July 20, 2015 at 7:31 pm

            Not from me. If he wants credit, he should try Mastercard.

  21. Al Potenza

    July 20, 2015 at 7:38 pm

    @Thomas Clarke

    Rossi is carrying on again about SSM (self sustaining mode) and how it is unsafe if it is on too long, though he is claiming he can do it more and more.

    I’ve never found a rationalization for why sourcing heat from the device rather than from the electrical heater should matter. In addition, Rossi at various times, claimed between 6 to 50 for the power ratio/Q/COP/whatever. So, let’s suppose the power from the reaction is 6x the power from the heater, how can the heater contribute to safety?

    I revisited Mats Lewan’s book and he provides an attempt at rationalization– the first I read. But it’s a bad one. I am not sure if it originates from Rossi or from Lewan. The idea is that, in order to cause the reactor to “self-sustain” (operate without electrical input power), it is necessary to push it too hard to achieve self running and this puts the device on the edge of instability. Lewan doesn’t really say what he means by pushing the machine too hard but what COULD it mean? The only thing that “makes sense” is that they heat it more. But if the reactor actually works, almost all the heat is supposed to be from the reaction ANYWAY! Not only that, but the silly hot cat doesn’t have any active cooling! So the only way that works is if the reactor doesn’t work in the sense that it can’t have a high COP, and all or most of the heat is from the heater. I guess Lewan didn’t think it through.

    I was stuck on an airplane for several hours and reread/re-browsed Lewan’s book. What a mess! Someone should review it competently on Amazon, if it sells at all.

    • Jami

      July 20, 2015 at 7:57 pm

      You seem to have bought one…

      • Al Potenza

        July 20, 2015 at 8:16 pm

        I did! I bought the hard copy version. I wanted to have it so I can write a credible review when I have time, under another nickname of course. Also so I can ask Mats for a refund after Rossi crashes and burns.

    • Tony2

      July 20, 2015 at 8:03 pm

      AL,

      You’re a saint! I fly all the time and the Sky Mall rag just has to be more entertaining and informative than anything Mats has committed to paper.

      For example, since a lot of us forget our keys when we leave the house, you can order from Sky Mall a garden gnome that is hollow and has a little door to hide your keys so that you (and any burglar who has ever flown)can get back in the house late at nite!! Now that’s progress!

      Tony2

      • Al Potenza

        July 20, 2015 at 8:19 pm

        The book is very “padded”. There are innumerable and completely irrelevant stories about the perpetrators, where Mats ate, what his family was doing while he dawdled with Rossi, who thought what, what car Rossi was driving, what the weather was and so on ad infinitum. And not one word about why nobody tried to hold Rossi’s feet to the fire about proper calibration in ANY experiment EVER that Rossi was involved in (which, as we know, was ALL the ones which “tested” his device).

        • Jami

          July 20, 2015 at 8:27 pm

          Just out of interest – which car WAS he driving? (And don’t tell me to buy the book 😉

          • Al Potenza

            July 20, 2015 at 10:40 pm

            An upscale Alfa-Romeo. As for the book, it gives some insight into skullduggery and con artistry, though not by design.

          • Jami

            July 20, 2015 at 10:49 pm

            By definition, there is no such thing as an upscale Alpha. The only distinction worth making when it comes to Alphas is between broken and very.

          • Al Potenza

            July 21, 2015 at 1:31 am

            Next time I put on my gloves, put a clothespin on my nose, and take Quaaludes to soothe my soul, I will pick up that book and let you know the model Alfa (not Alpha puleeze).

    • Roger B

      July 21, 2015 at 3:43 am

      Hi Mary, how you doing? Long time no chat sweetie. I missed ya. xxx

      Roger

      • JohnP

        July 21, 2015 at 4:13 am

        Wow. Now it’s Greenie impersonating Roger impersonating JarJarBlink.

        C’mon Greenie, go back to ECW. There, you’re in the middle of the Bell curve. They think you’re smart, really.

        Seriously, you have to quit alcohol.

        • Roger B

          July 21, 2015 at 4:40 am

          Hey John, don’t be a cockblocker and give a man a chance. Mary and I go a while back …

          • JohnP

            July 21, 2015 at 5:57 am

            Wow, again, Greenie, and we thought you were a new addition to the Forum.

            You are so smart, you fooled us.

            You pityful imbecile.

          • Roger B

            July 21, 2015 at 6:22 am

            Imbecile? I don’t know John. I’m just a fool in love …

  22. Jami

    July 20, 2015 at 10:46 pm

    Meanwhile… folks on dummyworld convince themselves that selling heat rather than e-cats is the better way to market anyway – at least until Rossi drops another remark which will then naturally mean that they’ll all have to convince themselves of something else. So why then is Rossi delaying things by running this utterly stupid 400 day test in order to sell an e-cat? Well, lets see… ah yes. He learns so much while doing it, of course. Yes. That must be it.

  23. Tony2

    July 20, 2015 at 11:22 pm

    SO Franks finds out Il DOuche has had hernia surgery and asks him if he’s living in the ecat container. AR replies:

    “Andrea Rossi
    July 20th, 2015 at 2:59 PM
    Frank Acland:
    Yes until the pain is over and I can move.
    Just a couple of dsys the surgeon said, not a big issue.
    For me would be far more painful stay away from my plant.
    Warm Regards
    A. R.”

    What a guy! The stream of bullshit is now coming out at a near-constant rate. I don’t know how much longer he can keep it up.

    Tony2

    • Frank

      July 21, 2015 at 1:53 am

      how much longer he can keep it up.

      Everytime you believe that the whole farce can’t get more comical, Rossi teaches you otherwise.

      Luckily someone brings Rossi a computer to his sickbed, so he can continue blogging and keep us updated about improved e-cat ssm times (weren’t we told that the original 1MW plant was already in 2011 running for five and a half hours in “self sustain”: http://ecatnews.com/?p=1144 ), about more hot-cat R&D work and “revolutions” (btw: why is this all done just by Rossi inside a small container? Didn’t Ransom tell us long time ago that IH/Darden should have access to all kind if scientists and resources one would wish?), how much he sacrifies himself to bring us the new fire, and everything else important to know …

      • Shane D.

        July 21, 2015 at 4:45 am

        Looks like they had a better idea than bringing the computer to his sickbed…instead Rossi’s team brought him on a stretcher to the plant. No kidding:

        Frank Acland:
        Anyway my team brings me on the stretcher bed the plant where I have to see and listed her, so I can work even if I can’t move the abdomen.
        Warmest Regards,
        A.R.

        • Tony2

          July 21, 2015 at 7:51 pm

          Shane,

          Unbelievable, isn’t it? AR is in a phase now, I believe, where he’s simply trying to find the edge of the stupid envelope. It seems to me like even he can’t believe what he’s getting away with.

          Brought on a stretcher to the ecat? Get the fuck out of here. If nobody questions this then the stupid envelope must be the size of New Jersey.

          Tony2

          • JKW

            July 21, 2015 at 8:56 pm

            Rossi got hernia from delivering tons of bullshit on a daily basis.

          • Shane D.

            July 22, 2015 at 2:26 am

            That is what I was thinking Tony. Personally, I think Frank irritates Rossi, but still answers to Frank’s continuous probing due ECW. Every once in a while though Rossi can’t hold it in anymore, and feeds Frank some total outright BS out of frustration, and also in this case maybe to see if he reports it back to ECW with a straight face.

            Bet Rossi and team are laughing their arses off that this one passed muster. I mean, come on, being carried into the 1MW plant on a stretcher! Give me a break. LOLs.

    • Roger B

      July 21, 2015 at 4:41 am

      Oh, couldn’t the drs like screw up his meds or something?!

      • JKW

        July 21, 2015 at 10:30 am

        Like your doctors did, green? You are working hard to make this site unpleasant, but screw you.

  24. Baccigalupe

    July 20, 2015 at 11:58 pm

    Wow! I barely ever bother to read this debunker site (boring) and it surely has become a great circle jerk for about 6 of you orthodox librarians. I will go away again for several weeks and come again to read the news when you least expect it. I can only ask again: don’t all of you have something better to do? Popeye – your word count is stupendous. What a silly life, wasting all that superb brain power proving over and over again that fools are fools. I am afraid that your obit will be somewhat shaky, concerning your waning years and fading powers.
    Bye for now.

    • JohnP

      July 21, 2015 at 6:31 am

      Greenie, is there a chance of you getting drunk and not bothering us?

      • Ransompw

        July 23, 2015 at 5:37 am

        Greenie? The above comment is consistent with any sane person. The dimwits which post here almost daily are so pathetic it isn’t worth coming here, even for an occasional laugh.

        • Al Potenza

          July 23, 2015 at 7:56 am

          Hey Rans, so in your opinion, how is Rossi doing? Defkalion?

          • JNewman

            July 23, 2015 at 8:28 am

            Apparently, pathetic dimwits are people who saw clearly 4 years ago what Ransom still hasn’t come to grips with. Give him a few more years and his keen mind will finally grasp that he has been clinging to a fantasy. Meanwhile, he can continue performing his hilarious superior dance.

        • popeye

          July 24, 2015 at 6:54 am

          Hey Ransom, Glad to see you’re still paying attention. Sad to see you’re still too obstinate to admit the skeptics have been right all along, and your wishful thinking has all been in vain.

          How long will you continue to hold out hope without the appearance of an ecat in the wild? It’s been 4.5 years. Will another 4.5 years do it? If there’s no ecat for sale (really) by 2025 will you still think it may be something? Give us something to look forward to.

    • Roger B

      July 21, 2015 at 10:35 am

      And yes, you can go straight back to Rossi’s teat, or whatever else it is you retards are sucking on.

      How long has it been now? 5 years? Didn’t Rossi have an eCat heating his factory from way back then? When do we get to buy one?

      • JKW

        July 21, 2015 at 2:46 pm

        Don’t forget the pills today.

  25. JohnP

    July 21, 2015 at 6:38 am

    On the other hand, welcome.

    You represent the IQ of Believers.

  26. JohnP

    July 22, 2015 at 5:41 am

    The day when investors in a certain fund dealing with industrial heat sue their woo woo head, this website will be a trove of riches for the lawyers.

    “Mr. D.: were you or were you not aware that the E-cat has been called a scam by highly qualified individuals for years?”

    “I plead the Fif…”

    “Mr. D.: What are your engineering qualification?

    “I plead the Fif…”

    “Mr. D.: do the names Thomas Clarke or Al Potenza ring a bell?

    “I plead the Fif…”

    “Mr. D.: Don’t you think that a basic understanding of calorimetry in particular and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics in general is a requirement before investing other people’s money on something that has been proven wrong for hundreds of years?

    “I plead…”

  27. Jami

    July 22, 2015 at 6:31 am

    MFMP have discovered that Rossi’s “reactors” resemble a pinch… in a way… somehow. It would be several dozens of orders of magnitude too weak for fusion and is, as such, about as close to causing a nuclear reaction as the fuel heater in your car or the water heater in your bathroom or the USB cable wrapped around your iPhone or hundreds of other innocent devices in an average household but, hey, some of the words typically used when describing a pinch can also be found in the Lugano report, right? They’re getting either very desperate or very bored. May as well use the downtime to learn some of the basics – but what fun would that be?

  28. spacegoat

    July 22, 2015 at 6:42 am

    Alternative name to “Believers”

    “The legion purveyors of flapdoodle love a real but tricksy scientific concept that they can bolt their pernicious quackery on to. “Quantum” is surely the biggest offender, offering up some mystical scienceyness.”
    http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jul/19/epigenetics-dna–darwin-adam-rutherford

    Blogger Clown and the purveyors of flapdoodle …
    Blogger Clown and Believers …

    Superior form don’t you think, conveying much more than just “belief”?

  29. Tony2

    July 22, 2015 at 9:47 pm

    We knew it was going to happen but just not when. Well, here it is. The Inventor has new ideas for a revamped ecat. Next we’ll hear that the data from the test (or the customer’s name) won’t be released because he wants to present the latest version to the world. Of course, more time will now be needed – and probably another lengthy test – before this new cat pounces. From ECW.

    “Andrea Rossi has commented quite a bit on the lengthy periods of self-sustain mode he has apparently been able to achieve with both the 1 MW plant and the Hot Cat he has been testing. He recently said that he has come up with ideas, based on data from the Hot Cat testing, to revolutionize the Hot Cat (again) for even longer periods of self sustain. He said they shut down the Hot Cat to make modifications for that purpose, but he has not reported on whether the planned “revolution” has been realized.”

    This is getting pretty boring what with it be so easy to predict what AR will do next to draw out the scam.

    Tony2

    • Dale G Basgall

      July 23, 2015 at 3:47 pm

      Tony it was an obvious construction of claims made without actual product or development. The red flags were from the onset of Rossi claiming he had a process and device. That doesn’t mean the process LENR will go dead until someone develops it further to assist mankind or the earth but it does mean Rossi eats crow today. He cannot deny making claims and attempting to lead others to believe something that in fact has proven out to not exist in this reality.

      That’s not novel at all, many have claimed and told stories to lead others to believe in them until finally with no production results to view and claims yet unsubstantiated years after the original claims were made an obvious conclusion stands out as singular.

      “Rossi like many others wanting fame are there to entertain others”, a simple staged set up and some sincere acting.

      • Andy Kumar

        July 23, 2015 at 6:18 pm

        Dale,
        Rossi is a congenital fraud and a clown. That is my final answer. I need to stop following this farce.

  30. Jami

    July 23, 2015 at 7:21 pm

    Frank Acland’s instinct for following stupid ideas knows no bounds. So, on a slow day like this, he features the second most pointless invention ever (after the e-cat, obviously) on his blog. The “Foodini” appears to be a machine which sprays food you prepared by ruining it in a blender onto a plate in some silly pattern or other. The mere idea is so crazy that you can’t help wondering whether it’s just an elaborate joke or the brain-child of somebody who is first and foremost batshit crazy – or both. Much like the e-cat, really, only that this piece of rubbish actually seems to exist.

  31. Juaqina Park

    July 23, 2015 at 9:44 pm

    It is with a heavy heart we bid real engineer Andy Kumar a fond farewell. We cannot blame Andy for throwing in the towel. The Rossi Revolution adds adoring sycophants on a daily basis now. And that is frustrating. More than frustrating, it is furious making. It is a wonder any real engineer would bother to comment here.

    “When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead…” It is time to abandon ship to our lone popeyes moving fingers with deserved rage.

    How has it come to this? Entire governments waving goodbye to our standard models as Rossi’s train leaves the station. I too am angry and frustrated Andy. This little Italian “engineer” overshadows even Enrico Fermi. It is beyond comprehension.

    Farewell Andy. And good luck out there!

    • JNewman

      July 24, 2015 at 6:56 am

      GW, inventing new internet identities for yourself doesn’t really mean that Rossi is gaining supporters. This idiotic business is slowly dying like a tire with a small puncture. Some day, it wil just be you talking to yourself.

  32. Keith Park

    July 23, 2015 at 10:59 pm

    Hi everybody, long time lurker, first time poster.

    My position on all this is I think Rossi might well have something though it is highly unreliable therefore not commercially viable. As a result his claims are exaggerated and he uses smoke and mirrors to get investment. If you think about it this makes sense with his approach to the 1MW eCat. It is made up of many smaller eCats suggesting he’s trying to build in redundancies to his system i.e. some work and some don’t.

    Having said that I do believe Rossi is running a con job in that he has oversold his technology and suckered in some investors. He needed money to further his research. If you think about it, Rossi says his current several hundred day test will either be “positive or negative”. Why would you need to run such a long test if you could conclusively prove the Rossi effect with one simple test? The reason is as I’ve said before, it is unreliable. If Rossi succeeds in generating net excess heat over the 400 odd days, with some reactors working and others failing, then he may well have a commercially viable product.

    • popeye

      July 24, 2015 at 6:49 am

      My position on all this is I think Rossi might well have something though it is highly unreliable therefore not commercially viable.

      Ah, yes. The ransompw “unreliable” position that allows those with a believer mentality to cling to some hope that it’s not a dead loss. It’s wishful thinking, just not quite as wishful as that of card-carrying members of the cult.

      I don’t agree that you can reconcile this position with Rossi’s words and deeds, but that’s a minor point. The more important point is that Rossi has never provided solid evidence that the ecat works, even unreliably.

      All of his public demos and so-called 3rd party validations can be understood without invoking nuclear reactions. Therefore, to take the position that he has something, or that he might well have something, requires that you put some trust in Rossi. But not too much, because you agree that he exaggerates, uses smoke and mirrors, and is running a con job. How exactly one knows how much trust is too much trust is anyone’s guess.

      The more justifiable position is not to rely on trust at all, and in the absence of evidence (as you acknowledge) for what amounts to an extraordinary claim, remain skeptical that Rossi has anything at all. The best part of this position is that it fits Rossi’s words and deeds far better than the “unreliable” position.

      If you think about it this makes sense with his approach to the 1MW eCat. It is made up of many smaller eCats suggesting he’s trying to build in redundancies to his system i.e. some work and some don’t.

      Does this really make sense? He claimed he was expecting them all to work to give 1 MW. Can you think of a comparable example in industry, where a kind of random unreliability of major components is mitigated by simple parallel duplication?

      Of course there are examples of backups, and even backups of backups, but that is different. The backup cuts in in the event of a failure, so there is always the same number of operating components. But to connect up 100 devices or so, not knowing which or how many will be working or when is not designed redundancy. It’s an engineer’s nightmare.

      On the other hand, since he has never shown the world that the MW ecat works at all, his approach is entirely consistent with none of the ecats working ever. Deception like this is always helped along by increased complexity of multiple devices.

      Having said that I do believe Rossi is running a con job in that he has oversold his technology and suckered in some investors. He needed money to further his research.

      You can rationalize his con job with unreliable ecats by thinking he needed money for research. But it is also consistent with non-working ecats, and simple greed. Considering his investments in Florida real estate, the latter is far more plausible.

      If you think about it, Rossi says his current several hundred day test will either be “positive or negative”. Why would you need to run such a long test if you could conclusively prove the Rossi effect with one simple test? The reason is as I’ve said before, it is unreliable. If Rossi succeeds in generating net excess heat over the 400 odd days, with some reactors working and others failing, then he may well have a commercially viable product.

      That’s silly. Even if it were true that the ecat is unreliable, that has no bearing on conclusive proof of the Rossi effect. He can run any number of them to be sure at least one would work, and that’s all that’s necessary for proof, if properly staged. And it would not take more than a week or so, and certainly 400 days.

      And even if you argued the 400 days was to prove commercial viability, why 400 days and not 800 days or 200 days. You can’t just argue it’s unreliable and so it needs a long time and therefore 400 days.

      Anyway, reliability can be measured in a much shorter time frame by using more units, and he’s certainly got enough money to build more units. And it makes no sense to test a multiplexed system like this to get a handle on reliability. Characterize the individual units by running many of them (hundreds) independently. Once that is done, reliability of a multiplexed unit can be calculated.

      The 400 day time frame is much easier to understand if the ecats don’t work at all. It buys him time, when people aren’t asking him for another demo or validation. And as with other cons, the longer the cult survives, the longer Rossi’s “tests” can take. So, in 2011, he was doing a new demo every month or so. Then after the Oct 2011 MW demo, the times got longer, with some in-house experiments in 2012, and finally the long promised 3rd party validation in May 2013. Even though the authors admitted it was not proof, believers were so hooked that they bought into the 6 month test that actually took 18 months (after the previous one) to the Lugano report. The Lugano report was so lame, that Rossi realized anyone still in the cult after that was in for the long haul, and so he announced the 400 day test, which will probably take much longer, and will be followed by yet another promised event. And on it goes…

      • Keith Park

        July 24, 2015 at 7:08 am

        Wow Popeye, I’ve read a lot of your posts and it is amazing the amount of time you take to post them. Good on you.

        You are right about not trusting Rossi. If you read what I wrote you would have seen that I said “Rossi is running a con job”. I don’t trust anyone running con jobs. All I am saying is Rossi’s approach is in line with that of an unreliable system. I think he might have something and that is my opinion. Whether you like it or not is up to you.

        However what I do trust is the good folk working at NASA Glenn Research Center, Navy Spawar, Mitsubishi, Toyota etc. All these guys have demonstrated the LENR effect to some degree or other. I know you skeptics pooh pooh their efforts as measurement errors, bias etc, but I can’t honestly can’t believe they are all delusional and incompetent scientists.

        • popeye

          July 24, 2015 at 7:24 am

          You are right about not trusting Rossi.

          But you admit that Rossi has not proved it works, and yet you think it might. That means you must trust him a little.

          If you read what I wrote you would have seen that I said “Rossi is running a con job”.

          I not only read that, I quoted it to show you don’t trust him completely. Now, if you read what I wrote, you would have seen that I was arguing that your position requires some trust, in spite of that line.

          I don’t trust anyone running con jobs. All I am saying is Rossi’s approach is in line with that of an unreliable system. I think he might have something and that is my opinion.

          But the only way to hold that opinion in the absence of evidence, requires that you must accept (trust) without evidence at least some of the things Rossi says.

          Whether you like it or not is up to you.

          Whether I like it or not is irrelevant. I was simply arguing that it is not rational. It is the position of someone who is inclined to believe things they want to be true.

          However what I do trust is the good folk working at NASA Glenn Research Center, Navy Spawar, Mitsubishi, Toyota etc. All these guys have demonstrated the LENR effect to some degree or other. I know you skeptics pooh pooh their efforts as measurement errors, bias etc, but I can’t honestly can’t believe they are all delusional and incompetent scientists.

          And to trust them, you have to mistrust a far longer list of far more prominent and accomplished scientists who are not convinced by the evidence.

          Whether LENR is real or not, I suggest that anyone who claims to have observed it and is unable to prove it to the world, is most certainly incompetent or delusional. LENR is not a subtle phenomenon. There should be no need for trust to believe that an energy density a million times that of dynamite is available in a device no larger than a breadbox at easily accessible conditions.

          • Keith Park

            July 24, 2015 at 7:39 am

            Let’s see if I cam do the quote thing.

            But you admit that Rossi has not proved it works, and yet you think it might. That means you must trust him a little

            Not at all. They are too mutually exclusive things.

            Now, if you read what I wrote, you would have seen that I was arguing that your position requires some trust, in spite of that line.

            Yes I do have some trust in the LENR effect.

            But the only way to hold that opinion in the absence of evidence, requires that you must accept (trust) without evidence at least some of the things Rossi says.

            Sorry Josh, I’m not going to play this game of yours. 🙂

            Whether I like it or not is irrelevant. I was simply arguing that it is not rational. It is the position of someone who is inclined to believe things they want to be true.

            We’re not all robots or Vulcans Josh. I do want to believe LENR is true. But at the same time I’m not stupid. I can see enough for myself to suggest there is something there.

            And to trust them, you have to mistrust a far longer list of far more prominent and accomplished scientists who are not convinced by the evidence.

            I do mistrust a lot of mainstream scientific community. Ironically I liken them to the church during the middle ages. What they didn’t understand they just banish as heresy.

            LENR is not a subtle phenomenon. There should be no need for trust to believe that an energy density a million times that of dynamite is available in a device no larger than a breadbox at easily accessible conditions.

            Quite on the contrary. LENR is definitely a subtle phenomenon and that is why a bit of trust is required.

          • popeye

            July 24, 2015 at 8:24 am

            But you admit that Rossi has not proved it works, and yet you think it might. That means you must trust him a little

            Not at all. They are too mutually exclusive things.

            Please explain. You admit that the Rossi effect has not been proven. So, on what basis do you believe the ecat may work, if not on the basis of trust?

            Now, if you read what I wrote, you would have seen that I was arguing that your position requires some trust, in spite of that line.

            Yes I do have some trust in the LENR effect.

            But you need more than that to believe the ecat may work.

            But the only way to hold that opinion in the absence of evidence, requires that you must accept (trust) without evidence at least some of the things Rossi says.

            Sorry Josh, I’m not going to play this game of yours. 

            You’re already playing. You think the ecat may work because Rossi has claimed it does.

            I do want to believe LENR is true. But at the same time I’m not stupid. I can see enough for myself to suggest there is something there.

            You just said you believe it based on trust, not on what you’ve seen for yourself. And if you’re not stupid, then Murray Gell-Mann is stupid, and I know he isn’t.

            And to trust them, you have to mistrust a far longer list of far more prominent and accomplished scientists who are not convinced by the evidence.

            I do mistrust a lot of mainstream scientific community. Ironically I liken them to the church during the middle ages. What they didn’t understand they just banish as heresy.

            I see. So you you hold to the true believer motto: mainstream scientists are not to be trusted (all incompetent or delusional, self-serving and corrupt) unless they say what I want to hear, in which case they are infallible.

            But of course, nothing could be further from the truth. Scientists crave revolutionary and disruptive results. It’s very clear that honor, fame, glory, and funding come to those who make major discoveries. Not those who add decimal points. The most famous scientists are those who revolutionized fields. The Nobel prize for high temperature superconductivity was awarded within a year of its discovery, in spite of the fact that it was not understood. That is hardly banishing it as heresy, is it?

            Likewise, Nobel prizes were awarded for the unexpected acceleration of the expansion of the universe. One of the laureates, Perlmutter, said that the only thing better than finding a puzzle piece that fits expectations perfectly, is finding one that doesn’t fit at all.

            Here’s a scientist quoted in the Washington Post at the time of the neutrino controversy:

            “The theorists are now knotted up with conflicting emotions. As much as they support Einstein, they’d also love for the new finding to be true. It’d be weirdly thrilling. They’d get to rethink everything. If neutrinos violate the officially posted cosmic speed limit, the result will be the Full Employment Act for Physicists.”

            —-
            Anyway, that characterization of the mainstream with regard to cold fusion was proven completely wrong in 1989, when mainstream science went absolutely nuts for cold fusion. Some were skeptical from the start, but most didn’t think P&F could have got fusion wrong, and so thousands rushed to the lab to get in on the revolution. Here’s Douglas Morrison, a highly qualified nuclear physicist, who would later become one of cold fusion’s most effective skeptics, in the weeks after the P&F announcement:

            “… I feel this subject will become so important to society that we must consider the broader implications as well as the scientific ones. Looking into a cloudy crystal ball, […] the present big power companies will be running down their oil and coal power stations while they are building deuterium separation plants and new power plants based on cold fusion. No new nuclear power stations will be built except for military needs….”

            That doesn’t really sound like banishing it as heresy, now does it?

            It was only when the evidence didn’t stand up to scrutiny, and mistakes were discovered, that scientists realized that P&F were capable of getting fusion wrong. And then the wheels fell off the wagon.

            LENR is not a subtle phenomenon. There should be no need for trust to believe that an energy density a million times that of dynamite is available in a device no larger than a breadbox at easily accessible conditions.

            Quite on the contrary. LENR is definitely a subtle phenomenon and that is why a bit of trust is required.

            People argue it holds the promise to replace fossil fuels. It’s difficult to see how a subtle phenomenon can do that.

            Most of the claims of cold fusion are claims of subtle manifestations of the phenomenon. But the phenomenon — the energy density a million times higher than chemical (under ordinary small-scale conditions) — is no more subtle than powered flight. And it only took the Wright brothers 110 seconds (once they decided to do so) to convince the world they could fly. The fact that 26 years of protracted efforts to demonstrate cold fusion have led to nothing more than subtle manifestations, and becoming subtler all the time, is characteristic of pathological science, and completely uncharacteristic of real phenomena, whether subtle or not.

          • Keith Park

            July 24, 2015 at 11:38 am

            > Please explain. You admit that the Rossi effect has not been proven. So, on what basis do you believe the ecat may work, if not on the basis of trust?

            LOL! Easy, based on the actions of reputable people working with him! The likes of Kullander, Focardi, Levi, Darden etc.

            > But you need more than that to believe the ecat may work.

            I have a theory as to how the eCat might be working. I mentioned this in my first post.

            > You’re already playing. You think the ecat may work because Rossi has claimed it does.

            Not at all. I’ve got a theory on how it is working and as I’ve mentioned I have some trust in the people working with him. I still believe he is stringing people along though.

            > You just said you believe it based on trust, not on what you’ve seen for yourself. And if you’re not stupid, then Murray Gell-Mann is stupid, and I know he isn’t.

            Believe in LENR? Absolutely! There is bucket loads of documented experiments.

            You believe in air right Josh, but you haven’t seen it, have you?

            A quick googling reveals Murray is a nobel prize winning physicist. Can you please advise how many LENR experiments he has done?

            > I see. So you you hold to the true believer motto: mainstream scientists are not to be trusted (all incompetent or delusional, self-serving and corrupt) unless they say what I want to hear, in which case they are infallible.

            Not at all. Please stop this Josh, it’s childish. You’re a smart guy. Let’s have a civil discussion.

            All I am saying is those who pooh pooh something without researching themselves have no right to criticize those who are.

            > But of course, nothing could be further from the truth. Scientists crave revolutionary and disruptive results.

            Some do and some don’t. Some are content to be in the shell they are in and if someone comes up with an alternate theory than they’re up in arms about it.

            The ones who are craving revolutionary and disruptive results are working in LENR! LOL! 😉 Sorry, couldn’t resist that. 🙂

            > It’s very clear that honor, fame, glory, and funding come to those who make major discoveries.

            Unfortunately it doesn’t happen to often in that order. 🙁 Honor, glory and fame comes to those who HAVE major funding! 🙂

            > The Nobel prize for high temperature superconductivity was awarded within a year of its discovery, in spite of the fact that it was not understood. That is hardly banishing it as heresy, is it?

            C’mon Josh, you know this is a straw-man argument. Likewise there are many scientists who did not believe harnessing the atom for nuclear power was possible. Einstein was one of them.

            > snip selected examples
            > That doesn’t really sound like banishing it as heresy, now does it?

            You’ve nitpicked some select examples. For every example you’ve made there were numerous others who were against PnF.

            > And it only took the Wright brothers 110 seconds (once they decided to do so) to convince the world they could fly.

            And prior to that how many actually believed powered flight was possible? Lord Kelvin, one of the most prominent scientists of his time, didn’t believe powered flight was possible.

            > The fact that 26 years of protracted efforts to demonstrate cold fusion have led to nothing more than subtle manifestations, and becoming subtler all the time, is characteristic of pathological science, and completely uncharacteristic of real phenomena, whether subtle or not.

            And how many hundreds of years did they attempt powered flight before it was finally achieved?! What a silly, silly statement Josh!

            The field of LENR is only getting stronger and stronger. More and more people are posting results of the LENR effect.

            Every time you google you find someone else has posted results. They could be Americans, Indians, Russians and now even the Chinese.

            Large companies are filing LENR related patents e.g. Boeing and Airbus.

            Good things take time Josh.

          • popeye

            July 25, 2015 at 9:19 am

            Keith Park wrote:

            popeye> Please explain. You admit that the Rossi effect has not been proven. So, on what basis do you believe the ecat may work, if not on the basis of trust?

            LOL! Easy, based on the actions of reputable people working with him! The likes of Kullander, Focardi, Levi, Darden etc.

            But you’ve admitted that these reputable people have *not* proved the Rossi effect. If you believe things that are unlikely and unproved, then you must be taking Rossi at his word, at least for some of his words.

            > But you need more than that to believe the ecat may work.

            I have a theory as to how the eCat might be working. I mentioned this in my first post.

            Saying it’s unreliable is not a theory of how it might work.

            > You’re already playing. You think the ecat may work because Rossi has claimed it does.

            Not at all. I’ve got a theory on how it is working and as I’ve mentioned I have some trust in the people working with him. I still believe he is stringing people along though.

            You think he is stringing people along, but you believe part of what he says because of what the people he is stringing along say?

          • popeye

            July 25, 2015 at 9:21 am

            > You just said you believe it based on trust, not on what you’ve seen for yourself. And if you’re not stupid, then Murray Gell-Mann is stupid, and I know he isn’t.

            Believe in LENR? Absolutely! There is bucket loads of documented experiments.

            The point is, if it were real, it would not require bucket loads of documented experiments. It would require a single reproducible experiment (even if reproducibility was poor), that provided evidence accessible to anyone, like when electron diffraction was discovered, or the transistor, or graphene or the structure of DNA or countless other discoveries.

            Bucket loads of experiments or claims are characteristic of things like alien sightings or evidence for the Loch Ness monster, or homeopathy or creationism etc. More marginal evidence of a fringe claim makes it more likely to be bogus — not less likely — because with so many photos of bigfoot, you’d think one of them would be in focus, unless like Mitch Hedberg says, bigfoot is a big out-of-focus monster roaming the woods.

            Your loads of experiments are all isolated, ad hoc claims, and according to McKubre, there is no quantitative reproducibility and no interlab reproducibility. That’s why an executive director at the Office of Naval Research, who had funded experiments by Miles and others, said in 2003 (from NewScientist): “For close to two years, we tried to create one definitive experiment that produced a result in one lab that you could reproduce in another,” Saalfeld says. “We never could. What China Lake did, NRL couldn’t reproduce. What NRL did, San Diego couldn’t reproduce. We took very great care to do everything right. We tried and tried, but it never worked.”

            That situation has not changed. There is not one experiment a qualified scientist can do with an expected positive result. That’s why the MFMP made it their mandate to find and define such an experiment, and why they have struggled in vain for 3 years to find one.

            It’s text book pathological science.

          • popeye

            July 25, 2015 at 9:23 am

            You believe in air right Josh, but you haven’t seen it, have you?

            I’ve seen the evidence for it. You seem to be unable to keep the context of more than one sentence in your mind. I certainly would never suggest that one has to see something to believe it exists. But you said “I can see enough for myself to suggest there is something there”, whereas earlier you said you accept LENR because you trust the mainstream scientists who say it’s real.

            A quick googling reveals Murray is a nobel prize winning physicist. Can you please advise how many LENR experiments he has done?

            I assume he has done exactly as many as you, which is what’s relevant to make the point. You said you were not stupid and could see that LENR was real (without doing experiments), the implication being that anyone with the same access to the information who can’t see that LENR is real *is* stupid. Given that Murray Gell-Mann thinks cold fusion is baloney, you must think he’s stupid. Likewise, you must think Glashow, Weinberg, Lederman, Seaborg, Mather, Riess, Schmidt and other Nobel laureates, who have been explicitly skeptical of cold fusion, are all stupid.

            Anyway, the thing is that Gell-Mann is a theorist. He didn’t even do the experiments that led him to discover quarks, for which he won the Nobel prize. You see, humans have learned to communicate. And so experimentalists publish their results, and anyone qualified to understand them can interpret them and contribute to the development of knowledge.

            Neat, eh.

          • popeye

            July 25, 2015 at 9:46 am

            > I see. So you you hold to the true believer motto: mainstream scientists are not to be trusted (all incompetent or delusional, self-serving and corrupt) unless they say what I want to hear, in which case they are infallible.

            Not at all. Please stop this Josh, it’s childish. You’re a smart guy. Let’s have a civil discussion.

            You’re the one who called me (and Murray Gell-Mann) stupid.

            All I am saying is those who pooh pooh something without researching themselves have no right to criticize those who are.

            First of all, the right to criticize is as fundamental as the right to free speech, and is not restricted to those who participate. But for scientists, they not only have the right to criticize, it is their duty. Peer review is integral to the way science progresses. It is used to adjudicate publications, hiring, funding applications, and for awarding honors and prizes, and in a large fraction of cases, the reviewers, while expert in their field, have not done the specific experiments themselves.

            So it’s not necessary to do cold fusion experiments to be critical of the claims, any more than it is necessary to do perpetual motion experiments to be critical of magnet motor claims, or to participate in bigfoot safari’s to be skeptical that bigfoot exists.

            In the second place, I was not talking only about skeptics who have not done cold fusion research. If you can keep the context straight, I argued that to trust those who claim to have produced evidence for cold fusion, you have to distrust a far longer list of skeptics, including scientists who have done cold fusion experiments. In the years immediately following the P&F announcement, scientists all over the world started doing cold fusion experiments. There were probably thousands or even tens of thousands, and of the hundreds of publications up to 1992, there were more negative than positive papers. And the skeptics who got negative results also examined the claims of the advocates, and still they remained unconvinced. Scientists voted with their interest, and unadorned cold fusion to return to their their previous projects. But they are still called upon to review manuscripts and grant applications and for the most part the reviews come up negative. The most definitive example is the panel of 18 experts enlisted by the DOE in 2004 to investigate the best evidence. In their judgement, evidence for nuclear reactions in cold fusion experiments was not conclusive. I don’t see why your judgement should be considered above theirs.

            You find it difficult to accept that all the scientists claiming cold fusion evidence can be incompetent or delusional, but the contrary means that essentially all other scientists are incompetent or delusional, including far more who *did* cold fusion experiments, and that is orders of magnitude less plausible.

            It’s not as if a set of scientists were chosen at random to investigate cold fusion, and they all concluded it’s real. The advocates are the product of years of filtration, and it’s very plausible that of all the scientists on the planet, a handful will run across an artifact that convinces them and they can’t let go, and in spite of the inability to prove it to others, cling to the hope of vindication and the honor and glory it will bring. There are plenty of examples of this sort of thing, which is why it’s been given a designation: pathological science.

            It’s difficult to believe that a few hundred children could be so wrong as to all answer 2+2=5. But if the test is given to a million children, it’s not so hard to understand that a few hundred could get it wrong.

          • popeye

            July 25, 2015 at 9:47 am

            > But of course, nothing could be further from the truth. Scientists crave revolutionary and disruptive results.

            Some do and some don’t. Some are content to be in the shell they are in and if someone comes up with an alternate theory than they’re up in arms about it.

            But the biggest awards, the greatest recognition, the highest honors are reserved for those who discover revolutionary and disruptive results.

            Don’t you find that hard to reconcile with your view of mainstream science as the church during the middle ages, banishing things they don’t understand as heresy?

            How can they be guilty of suppressing new knowledge, even while they celebrate new knowledge with honors and awards?

            The vast majority of new scientific knowledge is discovered within mainstream science. It’s simply daft to suggest that same organization that brings new knowledge is suppressing it.

            The ones who are craving revolutionary and disruptive results are working in LENR!

            It’s certainly true that LENR investigators crave revolutionary results. Unfortunately, while this curiosity and craving is a prerequisite, it is not enough. If you look at the Nobel prizes awarded since (or around) the time of the P&F claim, all the recognized revolutionary results, from quasi-crystals to new carbon structures (fullerenes and graphene and nanotubes etc) to dark energy to high temperature superconductivity to the anisotropy of the background microwave radiation to the observation of Bose-Einstein condensates to the discovery of the quantized Hall effect and so on, do not include any prizes for cold fusion. So, even if LENR investigators crave revolutionary results, they clearly cannot claim to be the only ones.

            > It’s very clear that honor, fame, glory, and funding come to those who make major discoveries.

            Unfortunately it doesn’t happen to often in that order. Honor, glory and fame comes to those who HAVE major funding!

            What’s your point? Even if that were true, it hardly counters the argument that mainstream science celebrates and does not suppress new and revolutionary discoveries.

            Anyway, if you look at the list of Nobel laureates, I think you would have a difficult time making the case that they were exceptionally well (or unfairly) funded before their discoveries. But there is no question that they have been better funded after.

            > The Nobel prize for high temperature superconductivity was awarded within a year of its discovery, in spite of the fact that it was not understood. That is hardly banishing it as heresy, is it?

            C’mon Josh, you know this is a straw-man argument.

            I don’t think you have the first clue what a straw man argument is. This is certainly not an example of one. It is what’s known as a counter-example to your claim that mainstream science banishes things they don’t understand as heresy. If you meant they banish crazy claims that have no experimental evidence to support them, then say so, and I will agree.

            Anyway, the list of counter-examples to your claim is practically endless. Just before the modern physics revolution, many phenomena were inexplicable with classical physics (the ultraviolet catastrophe, the photoelectric effect, Compton scattering, discrete atomic spectra, the constancy of the speed of light, and so on), but mainstream science did not banish them. And when theories were proposed to explain the phenomena, from Planck and Einstein and Bohr and many others, they were accepted almost overnight. More recent examples (besides HTSC) include dark energy and the accelerating expansion of the universe, quasi-crystals (which did encounter considerable resistance, but was awarded a Nobel prize anyway).

            Likewise there are many scientists who did not believe harnessing the atom for nuclear power was possible. Einstein was one of them.

            And this is *not* an example of what you were arguing. Individual scientists expressing skepticism about specific *unclaimed* technological or scientific development is not the same as mainstream science banishing something claimed because they don’t understand it.

            No one had claimed evidence for the successful harnessing of nuclear power in the way people have claimed cold fusion. If they had, and it was dismissed with near unanimity, and it was then vindicated, you’d have a precedent. But you don’t.

            What Einstein said (in 1934) was: “There is not the slightest indication that [nuclear energy] will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will.”


            He was right, you know. At the time he said that, there was not the slightest indication it would be obtainable.

            Others, like Millikan and Rutherford also expressed skepticism. But importantly, these dismissals were not made 26 years after someone had claimed experimental evidence for such an energy source. And as soon as experimental evidence even pointed towards a method of getting energy by splitting the atom, it was broadly accepted, as is evident in Einstein’s letter to Roosevelt in 1939:

            “Some recent work by E. Fermi and L. Szilard, which has been communicated to me in manuscript, leads me to expect that the element uranium may be turned into a new and important source of energy in the immediate future.”

            Likewise, as dismissive as scientists are about cold fusion based on current experimental evidence, they would accept it in a heartbeat if the evidence suggested it. That was proved in 1989, when P&F were treated like rock stars. But having examined the claimed evidence, the skepticism has returned, and it is reinforced by the failure of 26 years of protracted effort to prove the existence of an eminently provable phenomenon.


            If you’re trying to find a historical precedent that suggests cold fusion might be real after all, try to find a phenomenon that is contrary to predictions of a century of robust experimental evidence, that was briefly embraced enthusiastically by much of mainstream science, then rejected for decades by all but a few believers, and finally vindicated. I think you will find as Storms has stated, that if cold fusion were vindicated, it would represent an unprecedented event.

            The truth is, cold fusion as it stands, has far more similarities to the standard examples of pathological science like N-rays and polywater, or to a long list of largely rejected claims (clung to by a fervent few) like dowsing and homeopathy and perpetual motion and astrology and crop circles and telekinesis and bigfoot…

            “. . . Sometimes the faithful don’t completely turn off their reason. They become captive to a fantasy they hear in one ear, but listen for science with the other ear. So begins a deterioration that dims the wits but leaves a zealous heart beating – the result is a cult of fervent halfwits. Some of them believe the Universe is only 6000 years old. Some sing praises to satellites. Some claim to fuse hydrogen in a jar.


            […] And a few scientists, captivated by the team’s fantasy and exile, pursue cold fusion with Branch Davidian intensity.”
Slakey, F., When the lights of reason go out – Francis Slakey ponders the faces of fantasy and New Age scientists. New Scientist, 1993. 139(1890)



          • popeye

            July 25, 2015 at 9:56 am

            > That doesn’t really sound like banishing it as heresy, now does it?

            You’ve nitpicked some select examples.

            Presumably, you mean cherry-picked. But no, it’s not cherry picking.

            The claim of mainstream suppression is an indicator for pseudoscience. Every fringe science makes the same argument. In the case of cold fusion, the opposite is demonstrably the case. Scientists don’t hate clean and abundant energy. They love it. A great deal of science is all about developing cleaner and more abundant energy.

            You should read Storms’ chapter 2 of The Science of LENR to see just how enthusiastically the field was welcomed in 1989. Here are a few excerpts:

            “A day after the public announcement, work was under way at LANL … People were quickly organized … with a speed that is no longer possible at LANL. Everyone scurried off to find palladium and heavy-water before the limited supplies were snatched up by someone else…”

            Excitement was building as more people heard about the “discovery” and wanted to get in on the action. If real, such an important discovery hardly ever happens during a scientist’s career, … “

            “During most of April, large and animated meetings were held every week as people tried to understand what Fleischmann and Pons had done and how the claimed effects might be duplicated. …”

            “By April 19, multiple programs were underway at Argonne National Laboratory (ANL), Pacific Northwest Laboratory (PNL), … [10 other national labs]”

            “In addition, 56 people, involving 8 teams, were working on the problem at LANL. Of course, non-government laboratories as well as groups in other countries were also working hard. […copious details of labs around the world getting busy…] As this list of laboratories demonstrates, interest was widespread and spontaneous, with studies started in at least 50 major laboratories worldwide involving at least 600 scientists. In addition, many articles in the press and on TV spread interest to the general public. All of the major news magazines featured Fleischmann and Pons on their front covers.”

            “At one point, the director of LANL, Dr. Siegfried Hecker, confided to me that he had not seen so much enthusiasm at the Laboratory since World War II. “Physicists are actually talking to chemists,” he observed with amazement. This attitude was being duplicated all over the world. To be sustained, this huge bubble of enthusiasm needed some very significant confirming results, …”

            And in a paper for Infinite Energy, Storms wrote “many of us were lured into believing that the Pons-Fleischmann effect would solve the world’s energy problems and make us all rich.”

            That’s the opposite of banishment, isn’t it? They were certain that if it were real, it would be the crowning achievement of their career. It’s abundantly clear that the promise of great benefits from cold fusion was a powerful motivator *in favor* of research. That’s why Pons got a standing ovation from thousands of delirious chemists shortly after they announced. The subsequent skepticism was a result of the failure of the claims to stand up to scrutiny.

            It’s the same with perpetual motion research. The thing that motivates it is great benefits, untold wealth, honor and glory. The researchers are marginalized because of honest and justified skepticism.

            It is not a simple rejection of that which is not understood.

            For every example you’ve made there were numerous others who were against PnF.

            This is only true after the evidence failed to stand up to scrutiny. In the early days, P&F were given more than the benefit of the doubt; they were hailed like rock stars. This is the proof that mainstream science does not reflexively banish claims because they are not understood. It is a complete and utter refutation of your nonsensical claim.

          • popeye

            July 25, 2015 at 9:57 am

            > And it only took the Wright brothers 110 seconds (once they decided to do so) to convince the world they could fly.

            And prior to that how many actually believed powered flight was possible? Lord Kelvin, one of the most prominent scientists of his time, didn’t believe powered flight was possible.

            Powered flight was entirely consistent with known physical principles (and there were birds who executed it), and most scientists considered it inevitable that man would fly (Kelvin notwithstanding). It was treated with respect by all the major science journals, including Science and Nature… cold fusion can only dream about being taken seriously by such journals. You will not be able to support a claim that aviation was banished by mainstream science for lack of understanding.

            > The fact that 26 years of protracted efforts to demonstrate cold fusion have led to nothing more than subtle manifestations, and becoming subtler all the time, is characteristic of pathological science, and completely uncharacteristic of real phenomena, whether subtle or not.

            And how many hundreds of years did they attempt powered flight before it was finally achieved?!

            It’s not about how long a technology is pursued. It’s about how long it takes to prove, once people claim to have found it.

            Between the first claims of successful powered flight and unequivocal public demonstration was a matter of a few years. The Wrights flew in 1903-5, but were quite secretive about it, limiting photography and witnesses, waiting for an offer of purchase. They didn’t fly at all in 1906-7. When they flew in France in 1908, there was no doubt of their achievement. But in the mean time, others like Santos and Dumont had performed somewhat less impressively in 1906, and by then powered flight was considered proven.

            The objection to 26 years is not the time it has taken to tame fusion (hot fusion has taken longer). It’s the fact that they claim to have observed the phenomenon, and in 26 years have been unable to define an experiment that unequivocally proves it.

            The field of LENR is only getting stronger and stronger. More and more people are posting results of the LENR effect.
            Every time you google you find someone else has posted results.

            There are still people involved in the hunt, and so there will continue to be claims. If the past 26 years tell us anything, it’s that it is almost certain that lame LENR claims will carry on for years. So, the total number of claims will increase. But they will continue diminishing in rate as they have been for 26 years, and continue to approach oblivion asymptotically.

            Any sense you have that the rate is increasing is the delusion of the present. True believers always have the impression things are increasing at the present, but actual metrics over time don’t bear that out, the simplest being publications in refereed journals, which have dropped from > 50 per year in the 90s, to single digits in the naughts, to around one new experimental claim per year, and even fewer refereed claims of excess heat per year.

            And yes, I know about the Indian journal with a special issue. It’s like the LENR Sourcebooks from 2010 and 2011 or so. Officially, it’s a refereed journal, but once an editor decides to have a special issue, the refereeing becomes meaningless, or the issue would be empty. They simply get the authors to review each others’ papers, ensuring acceptance. Moreover, the journal’s impact factor is about 0.7 as I remember, and most of the papers are comments or reviews or retrospectives. And the few experimental papers report years-old data. Looking through that issue, it should be obvious to anyone that the field is dying an agonizingly slow death.

            As recently as 2010 – 12, both the ACS and APS ran LENR seminars at their national meetings, and the ACS published at least 2 LENR sourcebooks as proceedings. Neither have had LENR seminars for several years, and the APS cancelled a planned proceedings after seeing the poor quality of the papers.

            And besides the decrease in volume, the quality of the scientist has been falling at an even faster rate. In the early days, there were people like Pons and Fleischmann and Bockris and peripheral interest from Schwinger and even Rubbia. Now, you get people without any relevant background at all, like Rossi, Dardik, Mills, Godes, or you get Parkhomov doing experiments in soup pots in his kitchen. Duncan is a rare exception, but since he got involved in 2009, I’m not aware of a single refereed paper or anything related to him claiming new positive results.

            Sorry, Keith, part of being deluded about LENR is being sure that something great is just around the corner.

          • John Milstone

            July 25, 2015 at 1:25 pm

            Keith Park said:

            Some do and some don’t. Some are content to be in the shell they are in and if someone comes up with an alternate theory than they’re up in arms about it.

            That sounds far more like the “True Believers” than it does the community as a whole.

            It’s Swartz and Hagelstein who claim, year after year, to have a working LENR device, which they drag out for the “fun & games” sessions at MIT (which also include such important topics as how to make the most of garage sales), but won’t let any competent researchers evaluate.

            It’ Celani who claimed to have some unidentified “credible” organization replicate his work (AFAIK, he has never explicitly named them, and STMicroelectronics hasn’t admitted to doing any such replication), and after over 2.5 years not only has not provided any actual evidence of replication, but has apparently abandoned that line of work.

            It’s Miley who claimed to have a working “350 W/Kg” device, but after more than 3 years has not provided any evidence of it.

            Any of those claimed devices would easily win the Nobel Prize for their claimants, if only they were real. Your job is to explain why LENR researchers work so hard to avoid doing the one thing that would guarantee them fame and fortune.

        • Al Potenza

          July 24, 2015 at 8:03 pm

          LOL! Easy, based on the actions of reputable people working with him! The likes of Kullander, Focardi, Levi, Darden etc.

          Worthless appeal to authority and testimonials. The hard data of properly performed experiments are lacking. No testing by universities or government labs — testing by individual professors acting in concert with Rossi doesn’t count. No main line publications. Paranoid nonsense about periodicals like Science and Nature not accepting iron-clad work about a whole new science are absurd.

          Believe in LENR? Absolutely! There is bucket loads of documented experiments.
          You believe in air right Josh, but you haven’t seen it, have you?

          This completely idiotic argument about the invisibility of air demonstrates how fundamentally lacking in deductive logic and scientific method you are. This is typical of most but not all believers.

          All I am saying is those who pooh pooh something without researching themselves have no right to criticize those who are.

          If you mean by “research” hands on experimentation, then again, you reveal your complete lack of understanding about how science works. There is no need for anyone to do any particular experiment in order to critique it. For example, I know for a fact that Rossi has NEVER allowed even a SINGLE experiment in which input power irregularities could be ruled out and output power measurement could be properly calibrated with electrical heating. That tells me that his experiments, and all which share this issue, are worthless– ENTIRELY unreliable. I never need to step into a lab to know that with certainty. The same is true of the emissivity assumptions made by the Swedish scientists– see Thomas Clarke’s excellent paper on this.

          Conversely, I don’t need to own my own LHC to recognize that the Higgs boson has almost certainly been demonstrated to exist with the properties attributed to it by Higgs’ theoretical work. If I needed to do each experiment personally to believe or refute it, I’d never get anywhere. It’s typical believer drivel.

          And prior to that how many actually believed powered flight was possible? Lord Kelvin, one of the most prominent scientists of his time, didn’t believe powered flight was possible.

          Another typical moronic believer error in thinking. Some believed heavier than air flight was possible, centuries before it happened. Others denied it even for years after it happened. That’s how people are. None of that says anything at all about whether or not cold fusion is real.

          Anyway, many of us are agnostic about the reality of cold fusion in general. What we do agree about is that theory makes it unlikely and demonstrations purported to be cold fusion are weak and error prone. That’s why I personally look only at claims to large effects which should be easily demonstrated– 100 watts and above and power ratios (so-called, wrongly, COP) of 6 and above. Such sources of power should be very easy to prove without question with ordinary methodology which does not include recourse to fourth power radiated power calculations and emissivity assumptions. Such sources of power should be self sustaining without outside power once they are started. There is no way that power less than 1/6 of the output would or could contribute materially to either safety or sustaining the reaction. No properly evaluated claim to cold fusion meets the criteria: power > 100W, “COP” > 6, and self running without outside power for long enough to rule out fraud or error.

          This also is a fundamental aspect of the picture which evades believers.

          So basically, Keith, your whole post is nonsense.

    • Pweet

      July 24, 2015 at 3:20 pm

      @ Keith Park
      You’re overlooking the fact that Rossi has organised a number of demonstrations and tests, and on all occasions he claims he has proven the e-cat to work, usually with a guaranteed COP of 6.
      He ‘bet the farm’ so to speak on the process being reliable enough to work properly on all occasions.
      He know he could do that, not due to any reliability or otherwise of the device, but entirely on the reliability of his magic trick. To reduce the chances of his being sprung each time, he used a different trick, even though mostly the performance looked similar.
      It should be plainly obvious that the only reason he needs a 400 day test period is that it gives him 400 more days to spend someone elses money and 400 more days to work on a new trick to allow him to keep kicking the same old can down the road.
      He drops little snippets into his blogosphere every now and then to test how new ideas might be received. His obliging audience claps and cheers and then offers him some lame brained techno babble explanation as to how he might like to frame the revelation of his next miracle.
      Even the idea of transporting his magic show around the country in a shipping container came from one of the adoring fans on his blog site.
      If he seriously believed even a teeny bit that his device worked he could have simply repeated any one of the disputed tests again to remove the areas of contention.
      All of those would have been simple and fast procedures.
      Did he ever do that even once?
      Of course not. Too busy. He doesn’t have time for that sort of clownery,.. he says.
      And yet he has time to waste on his silly blog accepting accolades and nominations for Nobel prizes.
      Although I don’t see that much these days.
      Have I said it yet?
      In my opinion he’s an out and out scam artist and a fraud, and nothing more.

      • Tony2

        July 24, 2015 at 5:08 pm

        And the winner is……..

        Pweet!!!!

        For being absolutely, 100% correct Pweet gets an all expenses paid vacation in Miami to tour the real estate holdings of Il Douche!

        Savor the view from the decks overlooking the beach!

        Enjoy a glass (or bottle or case) of cheap red wine with The Inventor himself!

        Laugh out loud when AR calls Levi “tool”!

        Really laugh out loud when AR fires up the laptop to tell the faithful how hard he’s working in the container!

        And keep the copy of the NDA you had to sign. It might be needed during the trial.

        Tony2

        • Al Potenza

          July 24, 2015 at 8:12 pm

          Indeed. Rossi is a proven loser– a constant failure. Failure at producing oil from waste, failure at making thermoelectric devices which are more efficient than present ordinary designs, and failure to prove that cold fusion is real.

          He is also a convicted felon for all sorts and manner of financial and scientific fraud and he cheated the DOD/CERL out of millions for those thermoelectric devices, the prototype of which was relied on and almost certainly never worked. The only reason for the “almost” is that Rossi has never allowed a proper test of the prototype. All the so-called production devices he provided to CERL failed dismally and turned out to be surplus junk, originally manufactured in Russia!

          The claims which Rossi has made for the ecat and hot cat all along have been stupid and impossible. And most of Rossi’s claimed accomplishments (robotic factories, sales to the military of megawatt plants, the ability to make nickel isotopes cheaply) have never been supported by the slightest evidence.

          The overwhelming likelihood is that Rossi is a con man and a lying criminal who has been able to fool scientists and investors because they are gullible, fail to do due diligence properly, and want desperately to believe that cold fusion at high power has been accomplished.

  33. Keith Park

    July 24, 2015 at 10:25 pm

    I’m only going to reply to Josh’s posts as he argues his points nicely without resorting to name calling and the likes.

    Looking forward to your reply Josh.

    • JNewman

      July 24, 2015 at 10:51 pm

      Keith, not responding to our posts here is no loss. Based on your rehashing of all the worn-out tropes of the long-time believer corps (i.e. NASA as the bastion of LENR, Levi as a reputable scientist, and so on), the one obvious fact is that you are most assuredly not a first-time poster. You are a brand-new name for one of the usual suspects. Given that you have absolutely nothing new to say, which one of them you are is of no interest, But do carry on. You guys need to keep minting new identities to simulate growing interest in this silly business. Whom you hope to impress is the real mystery.

    • Shane D.

      July 24, 2015 at 11:19 pm

      Keith,

      It’s possible that marginal COP could explain a lot of things as you say. Rossi’s needing this 400 day test to break out of the noise. His buying the condo’s so quickly. Or maybe it has to do with the “N” word in LENR, and someone is requiring 400 days so as to definitively rule out harmful “N” effects?

      But the skeps here do have some good points. Not hard to poke holes in our theories as they have, and will do. Just the fact this is almost 5 years since going public -7 years total, without one clear shred of evidence that proves the Ecat…well that right there makes this tuff to argue.

      Hey but I’m game like you. You never know. We do have some solid rumors, from three credible sources, that the 1MW is in a plant as Rossisays and working well. Ain’t much, but it is something.

      Even if Rossi crashes and burns…which if it happens should be soon, we still have Brillouin which has SRIs word that their low and high temp boilers produce 2 and 4 COP. Then there is Miley who recently reported LENR+. NicheNergy (Piantelli’s baby) is so advanced they overruled the boss and nixed any cooperation with MFMP.

      You know, I was feeling pretty dejected about all this, but after writing this I feel more upbeat. Yeah, things are looking much better the more I think about it.

      • Jami

        July 25, 2015 at 2:16 pm

        If there was marginal COP, it would still earn him a place in history, lots of money and even more fame – if he would prove it. What marginal COP would NOT do is make so much as a penny from selling heat.

    • Al Potenza

      July 25, 2015 at 6:26 pm

      How do you argue with views like:

      Since air is invisible and you agree it exists, you should agree that the ecat works?

      And, since some people didn’t believe heavier than air flight was real, you should believe that the ecat works?

  34. Frank

    July 25, 2015 at 5:27 pm

    Rossi’s skills are amazing!. While others still struggle with the replication of the ‘dogbone’, he invents a new and even better pipedream

    Andrea Rossi, July 25th, 2015 at 8:11 AM
    Albert N.:
    Because I made a revolution in it. It is a completely new thing that, by my calculatons, should ( SHOULD) improve the “classic” one. It is an attempt: if it goes, the improvement, in term of ssm, will be strong. Otherwise, it is a wrong idea. The only way to know is to make an experiment. The funny part is how I got this idea: after the hernia surgery, when I woke up from the total anesthesy I got through, I had to stay some hour in a room, with pain. I am used to overcome pain relaxing and focusing strongly in something; obviously I focused on a new reactor and it came out. Now we did it, tomorrow goes in action. We’ll see if she is an abort or a baby. If she is a baby, is a M.me Curie!
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    And all this great ideas he gets when intoxicated (anesthesy)!
    I suggest we pay him a trip up to Colorado (for some “smoke”) – there he we will make e-cat revolutions day in, day out.

    • Tony2

      July 25, 2015 at 5:54 pm

      Frank,

      Just some more set up work by the master pitcher, AR. You can bet cash money that this anesthesy-induced revelation will lead right to the need for more time and testing. The “classic” models will be abandoned because why would you flog a dead horse when American Pharoah just moved into the stable?

      Or, this new baby could lead to the explosion and destruction of the 1 MW ecat and lead to more rebuilding and testing. Many here have posited that this would be a great way for AR to get another 4-5 years out of the scam.

      Whatever this is, Il Douche is up to something.

      Tony S.

      • Al Potenza

        July 25, 2015 at 6:20 pm

        Not only that but Rossi discovered a new elemental particle, the calculaton?

        These only appear when you are in a state of anesthesy which can only mean the absence of feelings.

        As for the course and longevity of this scam, he’s already on borrowed time. Even sots like Darden and Vaughn have some limits. Just as Rossi’s “distributors” (or at least some of them) seemed to have.

        Eventually, Rossi will only have the fan sheeple at E-dummy world and the (ROTFWL!) “replicators”.

      • Jami

        July 26, 2015 at 11:33 am

        Yep. Same old same old. I guess people on dummyworld have gotten so used to being disappointed by now that it has not only become part of the game – it actually iS the game. Follow Rossi’s bullshit, interpret it in the best possible way, point out that technology xyz took a couple of years, too (or never materialised at all) and, above all else, BE PATIENT. What else could they do? Own up top the fact that they were all morons to believe a word of it in the first place? No way. Drawing it out forever is the better option. Hopefully until Rossi dies. They could then pretend that he really had something ’til the end of time and make him a kind of second Mystery Tesla. And after that, every decade or so some other charlatan can come along pretending to know Rossi’s “secrets” and being THAT close to finally unleashing the cat.

    • ts

      July 26, 2015 at 1:14 pm

      What I find the most ridiculous is not the comments made by the ecat people like the one above, as the ecat people always make ridiculous comments, but that Darden/IH/Cherokee are still associating with the ecat people. Cherokee is a large , reputable corporation. Why are they putting their name at risk dealing with the ecat people?

      Perhaps they are hoping to dump the ecat tech off on another investor group. Until that time, they are forced to act like the ecat is credible, maybe

      • Thomas Clarke

        July 26, 2015 at 2:30 pm

        They have plausible deniability.

        It is better for Darden/Cherokee if they say it was a long-shot arms length investment (which it was). Should it go wrong, no-one is surprised. As with BLP Rossi can likely continue his project for a very long time without any formal admission either that it does not work or that he has behaved improperly.

        The “association” is minimal (an arms length investment).

        IH itself would appear to be Rossi and no-one else of importance, so no-one there to withdraw.

        • John Milstone

          July 26, 2015 at 3:06 pm

          The Madison Priest story is a good example of how big, credible companies often act when they fall victim to a con man.

          Priest claimed (back in the ’90s) to have a device that could compress hi-def video in real-time to the point that it could be sent over an analog modem (56 Kb/second). In reality, he had boxes full of random electronic junk, and a hidden coax cable running between his two “laboratories”.

          In spite of the fact that no one ever saw Priest’s gadget working without Priest running the demo in his own facility (sound familiar?), companies including Intel and General Dynamics invested.

          After the scam was exposed, neither Intel nor General Dynamics were willing to pursue legal actions against Priest. They felt that the embarrassment of being exposed as gullible victims of an obvious con man was worse then the loss of the invested money.

          It was only because one small-time investor decided he didn’t care if he looked foolish and went after Priest that we even know of the scam.

          Here is a good, brief summary of the story, with links:

          http://www.brucebnews.com/2002/05/323/

      • Tony2

        July 26, 2015 at 3:43 pm

        ts,

        It wouldn’t surprise me one bit to find out that Cherokee isn’t the sterling example of eco-business that we’ve been led to believe. If you go over their web-site, more projects than not are just proposals and CGI. Very little “real” conversion of brown fields into what the Cherokee mission statement purports to do.

        If they are real then they are extremely stupid and anybody who has their money with them is also stupid. If they are real, then what they’re doing now makes some sense as they try to minimize the damage and try and push Il Douche off to somebody who has even less sense. From the very beginning of all of this, looking into Cherokee doesn’t give one a warm, lovey feeling. At least it didn’t for me but what do I know?

        Tony2

        • Al Potenza

          July 26, 2015 at 4:42 pm

          Cherokee has been through the wringer as this story (link below) demonstrates — they sold off all their investments in 2008 apparently… and the company they have now is quite different and, as you note, their mission is very vague. I wonder what happened to the original investors during the sell off of assets at deep losses!

          http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/print-edition/2013/07/12/tom-darden-and-partners-reorient-the.html

        • Al Potenza

          July 26, 2015 at 5:17 pm

          A recent article about Darden and Cherokee (5/2015) and absolutely no mention of Rossi, ecats, or cold fusion.

          http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/print-edition/2015/05/29/ceo-of-the-year-tom-darden.html

          • Asterix

            July 26, 2015 at 7:51 pm

            I’ve been pointing out from the beginning that the $14M or so that Cherokee claims to have sunk into Rossi’s game doesn’t amount to a hill of beans in terms of capital. I suspect that most of Cherokee’s investors are institutional; some undoubtedly selected this fund because of “green” motivations. To the guys in the boardroom, this amount of money is probably less than noise–and represents a tax deduction or credit, since Rossi’s ostensibly in the R&D business. So, no net outlay–and quite possibly some investment credits.

            If Rossi really had something, that 14 million would look more like half a billion, which it isn’t.

            This seems to have escaped the believers.

  35. Frank

    July 26, 2015 at 3:49 am

    Hmm, it seems that with his last couple of postings Gr€€nWin aka
    R0ger Park€r aka Jar0slav S€stak aka K€ith Park aka ??? has crossed the line again, which moved the Admin to delete those hate rants.
    Wondering how many identities Greenie uses on ecw in order to “rationalize” and sugarcoat the e-cat farce – so that the few remaining Rossi fans there feel reassured in their believes.

    • JNewman

      July 26, 2015 at 8:20 am

      As perhaps the least self-aware individuals I can recall, GW will no doubt reemerge here with yet another new identity to continue his utterly pointless activities. Truly pathetic.

  36. Al Potenza

    July 26, 2015 at 4:54 pm

    Interesting. If I spell Rodger Barrker’s name correctly, I get:

    Your comment was marked as spam. If this is in error, please contact the admin.

    That’s if I edit. Otherwise, the comment is simply ignored by the forum. Guess the guy is HEAVILY blocked. I bet he and the Green show up again in some new guise. Trolling this forum seems irresistible to them.

  37. Al Potenza

    July 26, 2015 at 4:57 pm

    Many thanks to Paul, AKA admin, for removing the viler stuff.

    Based on past postings here and else where, I think Roger Barrker (misspelling deliberate, see above) and Greenwin are not the same individual. Maybe they have similar approaches to trolling but from past experience, they seem to be different people. Roger, if possible, is even sicker than Greenwin.

    If these two are representative of the remains of Rossi’s rag tag believer army, his scam’s legs are getting shorter.

    Today, on his inane blog, Rossi painted himself into a corner some more. His existing “plant” now runs almost all the time in SSM (without outside power, yeah right) and he has a new, smaller and hopefully more efficient, higher energy density hot cat.

    Where does he go from there? Does he try to bamboozle the same blind mice again? Does he dodge all attempts to get a test? How long will the scam last with no customers, no tests and no income? Won’t Darden or one of his people FINALLY get suspicious? Will they ask to speak to Rossi’s customer? Look at data?

    Inquiring people want to know! ROTFWL!

  38. spacegoat

    July 26, 2015 at 6:10 pm

    John Hadjichristos now a farmer.

    On John Hadjichristos’s LinkedIn profile, he lists his current employment position as Consultant at GAIA-EPEIXEIREIN
    https://www.c-gaia.gr/
    http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/01/04/john-hadjichristos-no-longer-at-defkalion-linkedin-2/

    Greece still being in the EU, and given his Defkalion experience, he should be a master at going after EU agricultural subsidies.

    • JKW

      July 26, 2015 at 9:12 pm

      What’s wrong with it? They are all working with plants

  39. Al Potenza

    July 26, 2015 at 10:52 pm

    Meanwhile, SHT, a darling of Sterling Allan’s free energy empire, turns to… well… SH*T.

    http://pesn.com/2015/07/26/9602642_Constantine-no-longer-with-SHT__reaction-primarily-chemical/

    Maybe Sterling can try farming?

    • Frank

      July 27, 2015 at 1:23 am

      Btw, what happened to another one of Sterlings “exotic enery source” provider – TeraWatt research?
      http://pesn.com/2010/07/14/9501672_Terawatt_Research_LLC_defies_free_energy_stereotypes/

      Extensively hyped by GreenWin here: http://ecatnews.com/?p=2181&cpage=3

      Their Web-site is pretty empty now: http://www.terawatt.com
      and Google maps indicates their former place as permanently closed.

      • Jami

        July 27, 2015 at 10:30 am

        That “discussion” was a nice example of the kind of morons we’re dealing with here. Too stupid to understand even the essential basics of the things they’re talking about – but very eager about it nonetheless. Eager, that is, until they forget about it. That terawatt thing would have changed the world in a very profound way if it worked even a little bit. If somebody would really believe that it works, he or she should either spend the rest of their lives vigorously promoting it or trying to replicate it – or see that it was all a load of tosh and they should totally rethink their approach to processing information. Somehow these guys manage to do neither.

      • John Milstone

        July 27, 2015 at 11:18 am

        Btw, what happened to another one of Sterlings “exotic enery source” provider – TeraWatt research?

        Undoubtedly shut down by the Illuminati.

        That, BTW, is proof that it was real and that it worked! Otherwise, why would the Illuminati stop them? 😉

  40. Alexvs

    July 27, 2015 at 7:40 am

    Some days absent from the story and you find lot of weird news. But now I have a good explanation for them, its name is container-addiction. Among other symptoms, container-addicts cannot live outside of their containers even under severe health conditions, they are possesed by fixed ideas, they produce overunity gadgets, etc.

    However, as far as I know, fellows Acland and Darden do not suffer the syndrom, the former giving more and more wicked stuff to believers and the latter dead shutting. Although being conscious of general stupidity the developement of this story amazes me. For the pleasure of reading about something so outrageous I think it is worth to follow the Rossi’s saga. I predicted weeks ago that the final of the story would be an explosion damaging the containers but perhaps I underestimate Rossi’s imagination. Let us see.

  41. Al Potenza

    July 27, 2015 at 4:13 pm

    Meanwhile, Il Douche’s research marches on with glory. So…

    The New Hot Cat has worked out his first day of operation and so far the components have operated well. The efficiency so far is the same of the classic Hot Cat, but I am giving Her time to assess all the components. Anyway: it works. How well it works has to be seen yet.

    (from JONP)

    So he already knows the new hot cat works, he knows the efficiency of the “classic” (ROTFWL!) hot cat but the megawatt plant which he has had and has sold since 2011 is still “could be positive or negative, F9”. Uhhun. Yah shoore.

    • Al Potenza

      July 27, 2015 at 4:35 pm

      Brokeeper sees it this way, on e-dummyworld:

      BroKeeper • a day ago
      A discovery of new technology of this magnitude opens a whole new paradigm change of industrial development. LENR affects nearly every scientific aspect of our physical world’s
      understanding and its potential use. The more its realism takes hold the greater flow of ideas to implement its use. Clearly Andrea Rossi is at the bleeding edge of one of the greatest discoveries of our age. His brilliant imagination and intellect is constantly in high gear thinking of better ways to capture its optimum potential to where the upgrades of the E-Cat appear seamless…

      Oh yeah!

      • Tony2

        July 27, 2015 at 10:09 pm

        Al,

        I was going to post that earlier but I just now got the puke cleaned off of me. I’m sure not going to let that Bro do any Keepin’ on me. What a dummy.

        Tony2

      • Pweet

        July 28, 2015 at 2:56 pm

        Correcting one small spelling error makes it all logical.
        I think he meant “the upgrades of the E-cat appear steamless.”

    • Pweet

      July 28, 2015 at 4:55 am

      Gee Al,.. fair go!
      For once he actually says something which is true.
      I firmly believe the efficiency is the same as the classic hot cat, and that is, COP is exactly 1.
      Well, as close to 1 as can be proven within experimental error, which with Rossi’s methods appears to be around 600%.

  42. spacegoat

    July 27, 2015 at 5:17 pm

    Some folks draw parallels between the EM Drive (new positive test result below) and Rossi fladpoodle.
    http://tinyurl.com/puhtym5

    For the benefit of fladpoodle consumers here are some key reasons why they should switch sciency camps:

    In Common
    If true would be revolutionary.
    If true, applications would have very great impact.
    Would earn an instant Nobel prize

    EM Drive
    Published by a reputable University.
    Independently tested.
    Conducted by well qualified scientists.
    Not yet proven but well worth further investigation.
    No daily blog.

    Rossi Fladpoodle
    Has a daily blog.

    (Al Potenza -How did you make it to the bottom of the thread?)

    • Al Potenza

      July 27, 2015 at 6:13 pm

      On a hunch, I added my remark as a *reply* to A. A. by JohnP — forum seems to be goofy.

      • JKW

        July 28, 2015 at 6:22 pm

        This seems to happen whenever the admin deletes a post which had some replies under it. All replies then get stuck at the bottom of the forum. Paul would need to either delete them, or start a new thread. Otherwise they will just sit there. Looks like a bug in the forum software. It did happen before.

        • Al Potenza

          July 28, 2015 at 6:25 pm

          Oh right. I remember.

    • popeye

      July 28, 2015 at 4:37 am

      In Common

      
If true would be revolutionary.

      The emdrive would be more revolutionary, violating a more fundamental law of physics, or at least it is a more obvious violation.

      If true, applications would have very great impact.
Would earn an instant Nobel prize

      Other similarities:
      • Marginal effect, in the range of possible artifacts, which gets smaller with better experiments.
      • No clearly identified cause with which the effect scales.
      • Failure to publish in prestigious journals, which would otherwise be fighting for the right to publish.
      • Largely ignored by the vast majority of mainstream science, even long after initial claims. That is, failure to prove what should be eminently provable to the mainstream.

      EM Drive
Published by a reputable University.

      Universities don’t publish this sort of claim. What you mean is published by faculty at a reputable university. But even that is questionable. The article cited at your link is a conference proceeding.

      By that standard, the Rossi claim has been published as well by faculty at reputable universities in arXiv. More importantly, cold fusion claims have been published in real refereed journals (if relatively low impact) many times.

      Between emdrive and Rossi, this one’s a draw.

      Between emdrive and cold fusion, cold fusion wins easily.

      Independently tested.

      I don’t agree. The NASA and Dresden tests are far from conclusive, and the latter admits that it “can not confirm or refute the claims of the emdrive but intends to independently assess possible side-effects…”

      I give no credibility to the various Levi tests, or the Parkhomov or the MFMP or other claimed tests of Rossi, but they are no less credible than the emdrive tests. It’s another draw.

      As for cold fusion, the many experiments are all different, and there is no real replication, but again, they are no less prestigious or credible as independent tests than the emdrive tests. Another draw.


      Conducted by well qualified scientists.

      They have nothing on Focardi and Kullander in the Rossi camp. Draw

      They are certainly not as qualified as Fleischmann, Schwinger, Bockris, others in cold fusion. Cold fusion racks up another win.

      Not yet proven but well worth further investigation.

      This is your judgement perhaps, and that of a few others perhaps, but there are also those who judge the ecat worthy of further investigation.

      I suspect a very small minority of qualified experts would consider either cold fusion (let alone the ecat) or the emdrive worthy of more investigation.

      No daily blog.
      Rossi Fladpoodle

      Has a daily blog.

      In my judgement, cold fusion is almost certainly bogus, but I would not regard it as any less likely to be real than the emdrive. But yes, the emanations from Rossi make the reality of the ecat a few orders of magnitude less likely than either. But they are all so remote as to make no practical difference (imo).

      • John Milstone

        July 28, 2015 at 7:14 am

        Failure to publish in prestigious journals, which would otherwise be fighting for the right to publish.

        Not being in academia, I never realized that this happened. I just assumed that it was the authors who who compete to get the attention of the more “desirable” journals.

        What is the mechanism the journals use to “compete”? Hookers and blow?

        • Tony2

          July 28, 2015 at 2:07 pm

          JM,

          “What is the mechanism the journals use to “compete”? Hookers and blow?”

          The story of my freaking life! I decide to go into private industry and all I get is a shitty gift card at Christmas time! The Profs are rolling in babes and drugs. Damnit!

          Tony2

        • popeye

          July 28, 2015 at 5:14 pm

          Failure to publish in prestigious journals, which would otherwise be fighting for the right to publish.

          Not being in academia, I never realized that this happened. I just assumed that it was the authors who who compete to get the attention of the more “desirable” journals.

          I’m just thinking of 1989, when it seemed Science and Nature were holding spots for cold fusion papers. When they arrived, alas, they did not pass muster, except for Jones’ much more modest claims of neutrons, and even those have been discredited.

          Of course it’s true that authors compete to get in to the prestigious journals. But the journals become (and remain) prestigious by publishing the most significant results, and sometimes that involves invitations.

      • spacegoat

        July 28, 2015 at 12:53 pm

        Thanks Popeye
        So blogging appeal gives a win to Rossi.

  43. Alexvs

    July 28, 2015 at 8:07 am

    MFMP replicating again. This time in an unknown place in Eastern Europe. ECW folks missed more replication tentatives while Rossi’s research seems to be far ahead of the famous dog-bone gadget.
    Happily, Rossi is 100% operative again from 6:30pm to 10:30am 24/7. Pity that he cannot swim, ride bicycle or lift weights.
    Revolution after revolution the newest E-Cat gives Rossi another 400 days for keeping believers expectant and happy. I wonder how Axil and similars would interprete the new revolutionary discovery.

  44. Al Potenza

    July 28, 2015 at 6:29 pm

    Maybe we should give Brillouin a bit of attention. Here is a blast from the past. They have since corrected their misspellings in the diagrams but they have done little else:

    http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Nuclear-Power/Following-Rossis-E-Cat-Another-Cold-Fusion-Device-Attracts-Commercial-Interest.html

    Note that the status was exactly the same, including typos, as a year before in:

    http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/New-LENR-Machine-is-the-Best-Yet.html

    I wonder if Westenhaus is disillusioned yet. Probably not. He and Tom Whipple are little energizer bunnies of misinformation and gullibility.

  45. Jami

    July 28, 2015 at 6:50 pm

    Meanwhile on dummyworld … Greenyer goes on about “statistically significant” shifts in isotope distribution being the real test for their experiments working or not working because measuring insignificant shifts in heat output doesn’t yield the wanted results. I wonder whether he ever thought about the uncertainties in sampling matter for spectroscopic analysis and how he believes he could possibly miss the required energy anomalies which would result if statistically significant isotope shifts could be observed – even with MFMP style calorimetry. Probably not.

  46. Tony2

    July 29, 2015 at 1:08 pm

    Goshdarnit! I guess we should have seen this coming what with the new device making heat; steam; electricity; and world peace all at the same time. But I’m sure AR’s team will get a new one together shortly that will be even better than this one that he imagined….I mean….destroyed.

    From JoNP.

    Tony2

    “Andrea Rossi
    July 28th, 2015 at 7:42 PM
    Tom Conover:
    As I explained in another comment on this blog few hours ago, the new Hot Cat has been destroyed, but we are making another with a correction that should resolve the problem.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R”

    • JKW

      July 29, 2015 at 2:37 pm

      This begins to look like Alexvs’s scenario. In the next test or two there will be an even greater explosion and all e-cats will be blown to smithereens. Fortunately, Il Douche will be on a massage therapy of his diaphragm.

  47. Tony2

    July 29, 2015 at 4:33 pm

    Maybe somebody can explain this to me. From ECW talking about the ecat running in SSM for 80% of the time.

    “Albert D. Kallal • 15 hours ago
    Actually, that 80% figure does give some hints as to the “kinds” of COP Rossi is realizing.

    As noted, there has been “speculation” that the plant is seeing a COP of 20-80.

    If an e-cat reactor has a COP of 3 (say like the one from the 3rd party test), then if SSM is 80% of the time, then we talking about a COP of 15. However, if the COP is 4 times during non SSM, then we get a COP of 20. (this is based on assuming that SSM mode produces the same output as when feeding the core power – likely not an ideal assumption on my part). But thus we take the number as an “average” during the SSM mode for this discussion!”

    If the ecat is running in SSM, then is the COP not infinite since one would then be able to ignore whatever tiny electrical input is being used to keep the controllers lit up? I take SSM to mean that there is NO external influence being pumped into the ecat. No waveforms; no harmonics; no nothing. So I just don’t see how Albert is coming up with these COP numbers of his. If the thing is SSM for 80% of the time (as Il Douche is spouting)
    and the SSM is as I interpret it, then I’d say he has an infinite COP since anything being done for the other 20% of the time which (as Albert points out) also has a COP of >1 could be just tossed out.

    Now, I’m not trying to interpret this as being any sort of proof that the ecat works because there is no ecat. But it seems like this deduction of Albert’s is flawed from jump street. Or maybe it’s a brilliant reduction of the data and I’m a dumbass but I’d sure like to know one way or the other.

    Tony2

  48. spacegoat

    July 29, 2015 at 4:43 pm

    “Nasa’s ‘impossible’ fuel-free thrusters DO work”

    By wmw_admin on July 29, 2015
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3177449/Nasa-s-impossible-fuel-free-thrusters-work-German-scientists-confirm-viability-super-fast-space-travel-slash-journey-moon-4-HOURS.html

    Fladpoodle => lies => believers => scams.

    The Rossi Sequence.

    • Al Potenza

      July 29, 2015 at 5:59 pm

      There’s an interesting parallel to claims for LENR. I have no idea if this engine works or not but it’s very low level power at the moment. That raises the problem of measurement error, despite claims to have controlled those. It will be more interesting if they get macro instead of micro thrust out of it.

      One thing in favor– the promoters have accomplishments other than Rossi’s felonies, previous scams, and jail time.

    • John Milstone

      July 29, 2015 at 9:45 pm

      Or not.

      Quote from Eric W. Davis, a Senior Research Physicist at the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin:

      “I noted in [the study’s] conclusion paragraphs that [Tajmar’s] apparatus was producing hundreds of micro-Newtons of thrust when it got very hot and that his measuring instrumentation is not very accurate when the apparatus becomes hot,” Davis told io9. “He also stated that he was still recording thrust signals even after the electrical power was turned off which is a huge key clue that his thrust measurements are all systematic artifact false positive thrust signals.”

  49. Al Potenza

    July 29, 2015 at 4:53 pm

    Stop the presses! Rossi achieves extremely high temperature self sustained reaction!

    Andrea Rossi
    July 28th, 2015 at 4:01 PM
    Gerry Carillon:
    We reached 1380°C and resisted for about 10 hours at that temperature, of which 8 hours in ssm.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    The man’s genius never ceases to amaze. For reference, the melting (not softening) temp of nickel is 1455°C.

    I believe nickel at Rossi’s temp would be quite softened.

    In another issue: What should we do? Write after the AA by responding or write new posts here? Maybe admin can fix or start a new post?

  50. Tony2

    July 30, 2015 at 12:11 am

    Alex,

    AR has a rich history of spouting off and then pulling things. Shouldn’t be long before this genius exchange falls off the cliff. From JoNP.

    “Italo R.
    July 29th, 2015 at 2:00 AM
    Dear Dr Rossi, as we know the melting temperature of the nickel is 1455 ° C.
    I wonder if this is the maximum possible temperature of reactor operation or if, under special conditions, this temperature can be overcome (still working well), without destructive hot spots.

    Kind Regards,
    Italo R.”

    A reasonable thing to note since Il Douche has always said that the device is intrinsically safe because when the fuel melts, the reaction stops. Well, that’s what he said yesterday. Today, another breakthrough in materials science.

    “Andrea Rossi
    July 29th, 2015 at 7:23 AM
    Italo R.:
    We can overcome that limit, for reasons I am not allowed to explain.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”

    So, pure nickel isotopes that cost pennies to make; nickel that now doesn’t melt; or, better yet, a new ecat that isn’t even using nickel anymore!! This guy is amazing!

    Tony2