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STMicroelectronics LENR Patent

September 23, 2013

Developments in the CF arena may be slow but there are occasional surprises dotted on the way. One such is the revelation of a Patent application by STMicroelectronics. There is no doubt that this is LENR. It is in the title. The application is very specific and unlike AR’s patent apps, is extremely professional. I have only skimmed it to be sure it is worth discussion. It certainly is. Filed in February this year and with a priority date of Feb 2012, it is evident that some quarter of STM (Italian?) has a keen interest in the subject.

Much time is spent in explaining the control mechanism but it goes further than that. This device is described in great detail. It does not seem to be trolling. I did wonder if a small group within the company had been convinced by external events such that they knocked up a ‘just in case’ patent but on reading further, I doubt that is the case. This appears to be a serious attempt at staking a claim on a device they had painstakingly constructed and used to effect. What that effect is, we cannot be sure. I am tempted to conclude that they have built such a device and obtained results worth protecting. As always, however, sober reflection is a canny strategy and I will hold off the knee-jerk reaction until further reading.

I welcome your thoughts. Those qualified to do so, please examine the patent carefully and share your view in the comments section so that we all might learn something.

 

http://www.google.com/patents/US20130243143

 

[With thanks to pagnucco at Vortex]

Posted by on September 23, 2013. Filed under Close Up,Competitors,Hands-On. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

2,845 Responses to STMicroelectronics LENR Patent

  1. Andy Kumar Reply

    October 5, 2013 at 1:54 am

    GW,

    You are a lean, mean web browsing machine. I am kind of impressed that you dive into all this technical stuff with arts background and want to battle with the techies.

    You will make a good investigative journalist and may even win a Pulitzer if you tone down your obsession a bit. Consider this a qualified compliment. Because my definition of a journalist is someone who knows “a little” about “a lot” of things. But “a lot” about nothing.

    Thanks for entertaining us for over two years. This is my last post, had enough of Rossi buffoonery. I think Paul has it right, Rossi is mentally ill.
    -Andy

    • GreenWin Reply

      October 5, 2013 at 2:12 pm

      Sorry to see the only declared scientist take leave Andy. But I do understand it has been hard on those inured to scientific orthodoxy lately. With the collapse of the West nuclear village, opposing LENR flounders, bereft of its foundation; chagrined by its hubris.

      Take heart my friend – it is ALL for the good. The good is by definition not to benefit a few, ivory towerists with secret handshakes and inflated egos – the good is inclusive of ALL human beings.

      • Dale G. Basgall Reply

        October 5, 2013 at 6:53 pm

        Green it is no use commenting to whoever that is posting as Andy, he or she is gone and not interested.

        My focus is now reviewing the nuclear accidents in the US that had never appeared until years later. In other words there have been many nuclear accidents held secret and covered up like the Japanese TEPCO did.

        I.E. above ground testing in Nevada desert, Simi Valley Southern Cal (20 years hidden from public eyes) as well as your posts regarding fission / nuclear.

        There is one thing evident, secrets can be held tightly, government has complete control over what we are allowed to view, and we are of no value as just humble people. Not even worth the truth, from old days until now.

        So Rossi simply just tried to make something work and along the way just built stories to keep going. That is absolutely miniscule compared to what TEPCO and other governments have done to the people that are enslaved by the perpetual lies. It is now clear by observation that they told us made up stories, or should I say have failed to let us know their reality because we are to stupid and we could not understand or comprehend why our governments are poisoning us with this nuclear radiation.

        In a court of law if you purposely plan out a crime and are busted by a jury for that it is way more a serious crime (pre-meditated). So how about the governments purposely telling stories and underplaying events that affect all of us in health and so on like the TEPCO and the Governments are just doing nothing except telling us it’s ok, not to worry.

        A good reason for that is that we can not do anything, the damages are already done so no worries. Anyway unless Andy was some other poster that started with us here when Paul started the site he can’t say he has been entertained here for two years and that it is his last post.

        I am going to hang on and just keep posting until there is no more ecatnews site, the real news should be how we can help the people in Japan, were next so experience would be golden.

  2. Bernie Koppenhofer Reply

    October 5, 2013 at 9:24 am

  3. ts Reply

    October 5, 2013 at 6:42 pm

    I used to post here some when I had hope that CF/LENR might be real science. My opinion now is that LENR/cold fusion/free energy are just entertainment fields and not real science. So, I put my internet security to ban block all those websites a little while ago. I temporarily unblocked this site to see if I missed any real science. No real science just more talk, hype rumors from the pseudo energy “scientists”. At least a lot of people on this site are beginning to realize this field is entertainment. The time I saved from bothering with this field was time well spent. So, I will once again ban all these sites and check again once more near the end of the year. If no real science backed by credible independent 3rd party experts is posted, I will permanently avoid this “field”. If anything real and verifiable happens in this field, the mainstream media will report it. A post someone posted earlier in this thread that the ecat people might have bought a condo also made my decision easier.

  4. Dale G. Basgall Reply

    October 5, 2013 at 7:06 pm

    Some posters are so vein, they need to post things like I give up, I thought this was for real and now I quit. Precisely what the term useless eaters are all about.

    They are hungry for something and when it does not turn out optimum for them well, turn in the towel. People make things happen by doing something and not just dragging along at the shoestrings so good by all you disgusted fruitless posters and good riddance. Followers is the label and I don’t include the regulars here in that definition. Just as example the like- ts, Andy, Ransom and the others that state this is my last post I am done and they hit and miss just to trash others comments, intimidate, and interrogate, all symptoms of ego driven individuals.

    I have learned plenty here and enjoy the regular posts, it’s the one offs with no patience or written value that contend they are done here.

    • JNewman Reply

      October 5, 2013 at 7:56 pm

      Melodramatic farewells are standard practice on the Internet. And they never seem to last. Nevertheless, this is the last time I am going to post here… until the next time.

      • GreenWin Reply

        October 6, 2013 at 1:44 am

        JN, since you’ve outed yourself as a wanna-be scientist please consider the noble tradition of Seppuku:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku

        It is the honorable way to end your postings here. It’s work for Andy… :)

        • JNewman Reply

          October 6, 2013 at 4:58 am

          A slight correction: I have not outed myself as a wannabe-scientist; you have outed yourself as illiterate. Now please go away.

    • Tony2 Reply

      October 6, 2013 at 8:29 pm

      Dale,

      I’m quite vein and also hungry right now. Arterially so.

      “Twilight”, anyone.

      Tony2

  5. Al Potenza Reply

    October 5, 2013 at 9:42 pm

    Finally, someone with a good understanding of control systems, thermal physics and fluid flow physics and engineering, comments on the idiocy of a heat engine in danger of thermal runaway requiring thermal input in order to run (Defkalion and Brillouin) or for “safety” (Rossi).

    http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg86565.html

    Robeson’s answer is moronic. See also Winter’s follow-on response.

  6. Al Potenza Reply

    October 5, 2013 at 9:44 pm

    Meanwhile, Rossi continues to coin amusing words. Now, he’s doing indipendent analisys!!!

    “In this very moment I am working in a very delicate and important phase of this validation process, which involves the third indipendent party, now working for the long term analisys of the behaviour of the E-Cat.”

    It is truly tragicomic that anyone still believes this obvious prevaricating liar.

    http://www.rossilivecat.com/

    • Deleo77 Reply

      October 6, 2013 at 8:40 pm

      Maybe Rossi is in Sweden setting up the next test. Great if he is, cause this whole thng has been on life support for the past couple of months. So maybe things can come back to life. I for one hope:

      1. The Swedes bring an electrical engineer with them
      2. The Swedes supply the critical instruments and cables
      3. The test is done in Sweden
      4. The whole test is live streamed on the web
      5. The Swedes have Mats Lewander as a consultant to accept outside questions, criticisms and suggestions on his site while the test is on-going, so the outside community can have a sort of open dialogue with the Swedes to make sure they are covering all of their bases.
      6. Levi instructs one of the Swedes on how to run the instrumentation for the e-cat, so during the actual test the e-cat is operated by the Swedes and not Levi.

      Given the criticisms of the last test, and that this test is meant to be a more in-depth and longer lasting run, I think the Swedes need to put forward these types of guidelines to maintain their own credibility. I doubt that these types of terms would be agreed to by Rossi. If he agrees, great. If not, well that would tell the whole story.

      • Tony2 Reply

        October 7, 2013 at 1:01 am

        Deleo,

        I though I saw an earlier post of yours where you said you’d gotten off the meth. I’m sorry that you’re back on the pipe.

        How could you possibly hope that any of your wishes will come true when faced with the reality of AR up to this point?

        1. First off, there is no ecat. Never was and never will be. So all of the technical longings you have go up in a poof of smoke. And when none of this comes to pass, my money is still on you thinking AR is for real.

        2. The Swedes are only good for producing meatballs and pretty, blonde-haired girls (I’ve been there)and they’ve proven it by being involved in this whole fiasco.

        Tony2

  7. Jordi Heguilor Reply

    October 6, 2013 at 1:08 am

    Just like on more innocent times serious media (National Enquirer) reported sightings of Bigfoot, now ECW reports Rossi sightings.

    What called my attention was the first sentence:

    ““Restaurant Sven Duvfa in Uppsala…”

    Is Sven Duvfa Swedish for Seven Dwarves?

  8. GreenWin Reply

    October 6, 2013 at 2:29 am

    Popee defends years of widespread fraud as “chicken feed.” A company managing the US public’s ONLY cold fusion patent, CH2M Hill, has admitted to federal, civil, and criminal violations. CH2M Hill, admitted conspirator to commit fraud, and partners in NSTec LLC currently manage the valuable Navy/JWK cold fusion patent. The patent belongs to the American people and JWK, not to the fraudulent CH2M Hill/NSTec.

    The partners in NSTec are heavily invested in nuclear fission, and orthodox US energy systems. They are conscripts of the nuclear “village” – resistant to low cost nuclear energy like LENR. Yet uncredentialed wanna-be scientists and blowhards like popee defend criminal behavior as “irrelevant” to LENR. No popee. Wrong. It is extremely relevant, and Congress needs to immediately revoke the Navy/JWK patent from NSTec and its partners.

    Former Japanese Leader Declares Opposition to Nuclear Power

    In happier news the New York Times reports that former Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi has seen the light:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/03/world/asia/former-prime-minister-declares-opposition-to-nuclear-power-in-japan.html?ref=energy-environment

    • popeye Reply

      October 7, 2013 at 7:42 am

      Popee defends years of widespread fraud as “chicken feed.”

      You’re confusing “defense” with “dismissal as irrelevant”. And what about your moral compass, “defending” Enron as “nuthin”?

      The partners in NSTec are heavily invested in nuclear fission, and orthodox US energy systems. They are conscripts of the nuclear “village” – resistant to low cost nuclear energy like LENR. Yet uncredentialed wanna-be scientists and blowhards like popee defend criminal behavior as “irrelevant” to LENR. No popee. Wrong. It is extremely relevant, and Congress needs to immediately revoke the Navy/JWK patent from NSTec and its partners.

      Again, assertion does not truth make. How is CH2M cheating on their time cards relevant to LENR?
      -
      Being heavily invested in fission might provide motive for suppressing LENR, but also hot fusion, so you would be simultaneously arguing in support of hot fusion. But what is the evidence for suppression? Certainly, convictions for time card fraud are still not relevant to whether or not they are suppressing cold or hot fusion, to the reality of cold fusion, or to whether anyone is faking cold fusion to line their pockets.
      -
      I understand your frustrations with all your failed predictions, but taking your anger out on another industry is really not persuasive, even if it soothes your own tortured soul.

      • Shaun R Reply

        October 7, 2013 at 4:53 pm

        Hello Popeye.

        I usually find your posts to be extremely intelligent,
        filled with solid science reasoning, but on this point I must disagree.
        You wrote:

        Being heavily invested in fission might provide motive for suppressing LENR, but also hot fusion

        Sensible investors don’t put all their eggs in one basket.
        The sensible thing would be not to just invest in nuclear fission, but in centralised energy in general, because centralised energy is a safe bet.

        Big investors like centralised energy because you can always bill the end users, i.e. you always have repeat business, it’s not like a one-off sale of a power generator.

        They don’t like forms of energy where you can’t bill the end users –
        that was reportedly the reason why Westinghouse stopped funding Tesla.

        So they are happy with hot fusion, because due to the huge costs involved, hot fusion will always be centralised energy, but they would not like LENR if it could be made to work, because that would be de-centralised energy, over which they would have little control.
        In fact the introduction of a usable LENR device would probably decimate their investments.

        What I am getting at, is that if it is in the interests of a group of very powerful individuals to suppress something, then at least some of them are probably doing it.
        As with all corruption, evidence for it probably won’t become available until long after it has ceased to matter.

        Regards,

        Shaun.

        • JNewman Reply

          October 7, 2013 at 5:57 pm

          While it is certainly possible that Big Oil, Big Nuke, or the Trilateral Commission might try to interfere with the development of LENR, it is not possible to suppress the validation of the technology. If it works, it can be proven to work. Or do you believe that moles from the forces of evil are sneaking into laboratories and sabotaging LENR experiments by responsible researchers and only letting the charlatans and publicity seekers get results? Yeah, that must be it.

          • Shaun R

            October 9, 2013 at 11:40 pm

            That reasoning seems highly unlikely to me, and I didn’t like your sarcasm very much.

        • popeye Reply

          October 8, 2013 at 2:00 am

          So they are happy with hot fusion, because due to the huge costs involved, hot fusion will always be centralised energy, but they would not like LENR if it could be made to work, because that would be de-centralised energy, over which they would have little control.
In fact the introduction of a usable LENR device would probably decimate their investments.

          If you’re talking about the fission industry, successful hot fusion would decimate that too. If you’re talking about investors, I see no reason they can’t invest in cold fusion. Computers are pretty de-centralized, but an investment in Microsoft or Apple at the beginning would have made a bucketload of money.

          What I am getting at, is that if it is in the interests of a group of very powerful individuals to suppress something, then at least some of them are probably doing it.
As with all corruption, evidence for it probably won’t become available until long after it has ceased to matter.

          This is a different argument, but the thing about cold fusion is that, as JN said, its reality could not be suppressed. The cat’s already out of the bag. Everyone’s heard of it, the benefits to the one who brings it to the world are immeasurable, hundreds of people worked on it with hundreds of millions of dollars, and they have conferences on it every year. How on earth could a successful demonstration of a million times chemical energy density on a table top be suppressed? I said there might be motivation; I don’t believe there is any means, nor do I believe there is any attempt.

          • Shaun R

            October 8, 2013 at 10:24 pm

            Hi Popeye.

            It’s dawned on me that most of my reasoning there was either pointless or highly debatable, and that my suppression argument is actually self-defeating.

            I only envisioned suppression taking place after partial disclosure of a new energy discovery,
            but I don’t think the big players will get worried until it’s fully disclosed, so that they know they have something to worry about, but once it’s fully disclosed it’s too late to do any suppressing.

            In my view the cat isn’t “out of the bag” yet, as you put it.
            I say that will only be the case when the underlying mechanism of LENR is understood, so the effects can be produced in a useful reliable way.
            Since existing science doesn’t predict these effects, I suggest that this must be a new science paradigm (it’s about time).

            So far the cat is only peeking!

  9. quax Reply

    October 7, 2013 at 7:34 am

    Greenwin, given your (understandable) reservations with regards to conventional nuclear reactors I’ll take it you have mixed feelings about the LENR/fission Genie reactor company that yet again failed to seal a deal?

    • GreenWin Reply

      October 7, 2013 at 2:13 pm

      The Guam political farce has little to do with the Navy/JWK patent assigned to a company convicted of years of widespread fraud and conspiracy to perpetrate fraud against the American people.

      • quax Reply

        October 7, 2013 at 6:17 pm

        Greenwin, didn’t mean this as a comment on the patent situation. Are more interested to learn what you think about this kind of hybrid design to begin with?

        • GreenWin Reply

          October 8, 2013 at 3:40 pm

          Quax, considering that JWK continues to offer to finance to the tune of $250M – I think it’s an interesting idea. Should we get a reactor that remediates radioactive waste AND produces energy (albeit fission-based energy) – it appears worth pursuing.

          But eventually, the Navy/JWK patent opens the door for pure CF systems like Ni/H gas loaded systems producing nanoplasmas with no radiative isotopes.

          • popeye

            October 8, 2013 at 4:32 pm

            Quax, considering that JWK continues to offer to finance to the tune of $250M – I think it’s an interesting idea. Should we get a reactor that remediates radioactive waste AND produces energy (albeit fission-based energy) – it appears worth pursuing.

            Not if it takes a billion times the energy to make the neutrons that you get out of the reactor, or that was harvested in the production of the waste. That’s just bad economics.

  10. popeye Reply

    October 7, 2013 at 7:35 am

    As stated before popee, you demonstrate an extraordinary lack of moral and ethical comprehension.

    No, you demonstrate failure to understand English. I agreed corruption is bad. It’s the relevance I question. Even if the company were force-feeding nuclear waste to pregnant women, and torturing puppies, it still wouldn’t be relevant to the reality of cold fusion, nor to whether or not Rossi was running a scam.
    -
    Grok that!

    • GreenWin Reply

      October 8, 2013 at 3:50 pm

      And of what relevance is a microcephalic? Yet, there you are.

  11. popeye Reply

    October 7, 2013 at 7:37 am

    The Hanford CH2M Hill contract is with the United States Department of Energy – a civilian organization.

    The contract was to clean up military waste with a government department responsible for the nuclear weapons program. That makes it a military contract, where “military” is an adjective. (Look it up.)
    -
    It’s not relevant to the reality of cold fusion, nor the whether or not Rossi is running a scam.

    • GreenWin Reply

      October 7, 2013 at 2:36 pm

      More evidence of extreme delusion from the cartoon character unable to understand the difference between a military and civilian agency. THIS is your most telling fail to date popee. DOE is administered by Secretary of Energy, a civilian member of the President’s Cabinet.

      ?You failed to learn American history at the academy?

      • popeye Reply

        October 8, 2013 at 2:02 am

        Nothing you said contradicts what I said, so you fail to find error even in what you consider my biggest fail. I must be perfect.

        • GreenWin Reply

          October 8, 2013 at 3:53 pm

          Telling and “biggest” are two utterly different ideas. But as cartoons are incapable of thinking in more than two dimensions – popee drivel is all we get.

          • popeye

            October 8, 2013 at 4:32 pm

            Maybe, but “most telling fail” and “biggest fail” are not that utterly different. Anyway, go ahead and substitute “most telling” for “biggest” in my post. The point stands proud.

          • GreenWin

            October 8, 2013 at 6:58 pm

            “Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.”

            Your knowledge of the US system of democracy i.e. differences between military (they serve the people) and civilian (they ARE the people) is breathtaking. Are you a non-human lifeform?

          • popeye

            October 8, 2013 at 8:29 pm

            “Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.”

            And you’re still standing?

            Your knowledge of the US system of democracy i.e. differences between military (they serve the people) and civilian (they ARE the people) is breathtaking.

            Thank you. But it’s not that complicated, a contract to clean up military waste is a contract related to the military.

          • GreenWin

            October 8, 2013 at 10:55 pm

            What? No response to the question of origin? Are you a non-human lifeform?

  12. popeye Reply

    October 7, 2013 at 7:41 am

    Like a Sisyphean dung beetle JN, you keep rolling your ball uphill. [Levi citation.]

    That’s funny. Challenged on the relevance of your corruption rant, you disagree, but fail to defend. Instead you cite a discredited, unrefereed, report in a preprint archive that describes an experiment by 7 nobodies, done in secret, with a proprietary device, that can’t be checked. No wonder no one of any consequence has even noticed, and nothing has come of it since.

    How does a person of no stature, an uncredentialed self-claimed “scientist” such as you (or popee) purport to dispute real scientists with real credentials?

    Simple. By pointing out the obvious flaws in the entire charade. It means squat if others are not given an opportunity to check it. Even a sailor knows that.
    -
    But isn’t it you who repeatedly quotes Feynman: “Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.” ? And haven’t you argued at length that experts are not to be trusted? You don’t even claim to be a scientist, yet you dispute the scientists who critiqued the Levi paper, not to mention dismissing a Nobel laureate as a misanthrope.
    -
    It seems you only distrust experts when they say stuff you don’t want to hear. I distrust experts when they say stuff they think I want to hear, especially when what they claim cannot be checked.
    -
    In any case, even an author of the paper says the results are tentative, which, for such an extraordinary claim, means they are almost certainly wrong. And 3 of those authors had already demonstrated their incompetence by failing to understand the difference between wet and dry steam. They are all small time academics, with unimpressive or absent publication records.
    -
    By the way, a year ago, you were singing the praises of another set of experts who had just “validated” BLP’s CIHT claims: “He has SIX highly qualified, irrefutable verifications of his hydrino-based fuel cell. It makes electrical energy directly from water vapor. It is highly scalable and next year we’ll see 100s Watt output, followed by kW output.” This is next year. Any sign of 100 W output? Thought not. When experts are bought and paid for, you should not trust them.

  13. Jordi Heguilor Reply

    October 7, 2013 at 8:17 am

    “That’s funny. Challenged on the relevance of your corruption rant, you disagree, but fail to defend. Instead you cite a discredited, unrefereed, report in a preprint archive that describes an experiment by 7 nobodies, done in secret, with a proprietary device, that can’t be checked. No wonder no one of any consequence has even noticed, and nothing has come of it since.”

    World of the LORD! Reflects the thinking ones here.

  14. GreenWin Reply

    October 7, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    Denial, dissonance (of the cognitive variety) from LENR’s premium skeptopath; a discredited, uncredentialed, unrefereed internet nobody. And self-identified cartoon.

    UNimpressive.

    U.S. Nuclear Power in Decline
    Earth Policy Institute (By J. Matthew Roney) September, 11, 2013 12:33:00

    “Even with huge subsidies, private lenders still see new nuclear projects as too risky to finance. Meanwhile, the U.S. shale gas production boom sent natural gas prices plummeting, further darkening nuclear’s prospect.”

    http://pwpp.org/news/index.php/sustainable-development/u-s-nuclear-power-in-decline.html

    • JNewman Reply

      October 7, 2013 at 2:54 pm

      Wipe your chin, GW. You’re getting everything wet.

    • BigWillyJohnson Reply

      October 7, 2013 at 3:11 pm

      GW,

      Either up your beer intake or decrease it bro!

      Your skirting every reasonable point possible. Ignoring them may serve you well but I cant help but believe you think the whole Rossi/Cat thing is a huge mummers fart just like the rest of us.

      Sad monday to all
      Bw

      • GreenWin Reply

        October 7, 2013 at 4:44 pm

        Now Willy, you know better ‘n to go all negative just cause popee does! Popee JN and Al make the “Two and a Half Muskepteers” – uncredentialed nobodies & self-proclaimed “scientists.” Er, sure. :) You believe their claims?

        Never mind. Here’s some good humor to brighten your day Willy:

        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/13/french-fukushima-cartoon_n_3920349.html

        • JNewman Reply

          October 7, 2013 at 6:08 pm

          Your attacks are so compelling that I do have to wonder how I have managed to have a scientific career without your stamp of approval. Actually, I can’t really understand how anyone can have an opinion without your authentication. Perhaps it is because nearly everything you say is an outright lie, or at least so distorted from reality as to not be recognizable.

          By the way, you should do some more net surfing and find some new psychological terms. It gets boring when you keep using the same irrelevant terms. Then again, you have become extraordinarily boring in general. A primitive computer program could do your posting for you. The canonical GW post:

          1. Get folky and call your opponent a “clever” misspelling of their name.

          2. Throw out some random insults, accusations and falsehoods.

          3. Post a link to an irrelevant article.

          4. Gloat that you have “won”

          Perhaps you can make this website more efficient and just post the numbers 1-4 as a shorthand rather than writing out all that drivel. It will have the same ultimate impact.

          • GreenWin

            October 7, 2013 at 8:20 pm

            “…Your attacks are so compelling…” I’m forced to defend my charades.

        • popeye Reply

          October 8, 2013 at 2:04 am

          Popee JN and Al make the “Two and a Half Muskepteers” – uncredentialed nobodies & self-proclaimed “scientists.”

          Nope. I’ve not made any proclamations about being a scientist. I’m a sailor, remember?

      • BigWillyJohnson Reply

        October 7, 2013 at 5:11 pm

        GW,

        I dislike those jerks as much as everyone else. They have completely dissolved my E-cat fantasy with logic and reasoned debate.

        So instead i rely on gentlemen such as yourself to restore faith. But instead of getting some good “pro-ecat” discussion to chaw on on a dreary monday morning all i get is overt diversion from the topic.

        I mean who cares about nukes?? Hot fusion? Yawn. Fukishima? That was so last year. Why not bring up every injustice ever committed instead of discussing the e-cat/Lenr?

        “Hey my neighbor stole my mail last week!” I guess that is just more meta data that the e-cat is the real energy revolution.

        Thanks for the cartoon. I did enjoy it

        BW

        • GreenWin Reply

          October 7, 2013 at 8:10 pm

          Thanks for the comments Willy. This site (no reflection Paul) hosts a two dimensional cartoon representing half the Muskepteers you call “jerks.” I agree they are simple-minded and hide behind irrational pretend-logic – like their unproven claim to scientific credentials.

          No one’s yet explained why the American people should assign a valuable cold fusion patent (Navy/JWK) to a big guv’ment contractor that has admitted to conspiracy to defraud the American people. Another partner in NSTec was summarily FIRED for last year’s security breach at ORNL Y-12. Y’know… the one where a 82 year old nun breached the grounds & painted slogans on the Y-12 wall. Seriously??

          Negligence. Fraud. These are the outfits trusted with America’s cold fusion patent & nuclear security???

          • popeye

            October 8, 2013 at 2:06 am

            This site (no reflection Paul) hosts a two dimensional cartoon representing half the Muskepteers you call “jerks.” I agree they are simple-minded and hide behind irrational pretend-logic – like their unproven claim to scientific credentials.

            Nope. I have no claim to credentials to prove.

            No one’s yet explained why the American people should assign a valuable cold fusion patent (Navy/JWK) to a big guv’ment contractor that has admitted to conspiracy to defraud the American people.

            I for one have no idea why that assignment was made, if indeed it was, nor what point you’re trying to score by repeating it. Shouldn’t the inventors be the ones to ask about that assignment? The patent itself is worthless, as the failure of the Genie makes clear. The existence of neutrons in those experiments is controversial in the literature, but even if they were right, the particle flux is billions of times too low to be good for anything. The GEC could only be a more obvious scam if it came by email from a Nigerian prince. And the association of the SPAWAR group with the GEC scam robs them of any credibility they might have otherwise had, which is not much, to be sure.

    • popeye Reply

      October 8, 2013 at 2:03 am

      a discredited, uncredentialed, unrefereed internet nobody. And self-identified cartoon

      I don’t recall being discredited, but the other three are accurate. It must be all the more humiliating for you to be unable to prevail against a 2d cartoon. On the other hand, the first 3 of those apply to you as well.

      • GreenWin Reply

        October 8, 2013 at 4:35 am

        Heh heh, “I don’t recall being discredited…”

        Ah, shall we add amnesic opportunistic con-man with no background in physics? Why not. You sound like another of your cartoon aliases “Joshua Cude.” WrongleNowmanPoppeeCude… SO many aliases! Proof positive of the classic furtive con-man.

        Thus your opinion on the value of the Navy/JWK patent is uncredentialed and worthless as by admission you have no expertise in physics or the LENR field. On the other hand the United States Patent and Trademark Office is replete with skeptical physicists and specialists like Keith D. Hendricks Supervisory Patent Examiner, Division 1724, Chemical and Materials Engineering. USPTO granted SPAWAR inventors a patent assigned (via US Navy) to the American people & JWK, the first publicly controlled cold fusion patent.

        And now it is in the hands of a private guv’ment contractor NSTec LLC guilty of federal, civil and criminal fraud and negligence.

        • popeye Reply

          October 8, 2013 at 11:27 am

          I said: “I don’t recall being discredited…”
          And you evidently don’t either.

          Thus your opinion on the value of the Navy/JWK patent is uncredentialed and worthless as by admission you have no expertise in physics or the LENR field.

          You can verify for yourself from the SPAWAR publications that the highest neutron flux claimed is at least a billion times too low to make up the input energy even if each neutron produced a fission. Or ask someone to help you. That claim is not an opinion. And since cleaning up waste would require even more neutrons per fission, the reported flux is completely worthless, and Pam Boss would agree, if she were to address the point. The only hope is if they can increase the rate by billions of times for the same input, which is about equivalent to the hope that existed in the absence of the experiments. So, it is completely worthless.

          On the other hand the United States Patent and Trademark Office is replete with skeptical physicists and specialists like Keith D. Hendricks Supervisory Patent Examiner, Division 1724, Chemical and Materials Engineering. USPTO granted SPAWAR inventors a patent assigned (via US Navy) to the American people & JWK, the first publicly controlled cold fusion patent.

          If that were a good argument, there would be no worthless patents, but of course, most patents *are* worthless, and this is one of them.

          • GreenWin

            October 8, 2013 at 2:53 pm

            Er, OF COURSE it will be scaled up sailor! You been at the rum again?? Goes to show why popee claims no expertise in science – popee has none (like GW :) ) The value of the Navy/JWK patent aside from establishing an energetic particle source from electro-chemistry is legal precedent. The USPTO has refused to accept patent applications identified with cold fusion or LENR for 23 years.

            As of July this past summer and the issuance of the Navy/JWK patent for a cold fusion process to generate energetic particles – we now have a legal precedent to award further cold fusion patents. THAT value is priceless.

            “For example, the generated particles may be captured by other nuclei to create new elements, may be used to remediate nuclear waste, may be used to create strategic materials, or may be used to treat cancerous tumors.” Navy/JWK patent.

            The text details an example of groundwater contaminated with the radionuclide technetium (Tc-99) transmuted via neutron capture, to Tc-100 with a half life of 15.8 seconds to Ru-100, which is stable. Stable. Unlike a certain cartoon blustering FUD here. :)

          • popeye

            October 8, 2013 at 4:29 pm

            Er, OF COURSE it will be scaled up sailor!

            They can scale it up all they want, but when you start with a deficit, scaling just increases the deficit. What they need to do is increase the conversion efficiency from electrolysis input power to neutrons at least a billion-fold, and probably more like a billion billion fold. And you need more than capital letters to claim that that can be done, especially since they admit they don’t have the foggiest idea what the mechanism of the alleged neutron production is.
            -
            They’ve been at this co-deposition experiment for a decade or so, and the claimed neutron flux has never risen far enough above detection limits to convince the world it’s real, let alone useful. They can’t even get past using CR-39 as detectors. If you can’t even see the neutrons with proportional detectors, good luck using them to produce energy from fission, or to transmute nuclear waste.
            -
            There are already neutron sources commercially available with orders of magnitude higher flux per unit input energy, so patenting something far far worse than what already exists is useless.

            The value of the Navy/JWK patent aside from establishing an energetic particle source from electro-chemistry is legal precedent. The USPTO has refused to accept patent applications identified with cold fusion or LENR for 23 years.
            As of July this past summer and the issuance of the Navy/JWK patent for a cold fusion process to generate energetic particles – we now have a legal precedent to award further cold fusion patents. THAT value is priceless.

            If it really leads to the acceptance of more patents for a non-existent phenomenon, then it is worse than worthless.
            -
            But this is not cold fusion of the P&F variety where measured excess heat is claimed. Lattice got a patent for a cold fusion related phenomenon too, and so did Miley. And doesn’t Mills have some patents? I suspect there are other peripheral patents.
            -
            In any case, there is enough fame, glory, and wealth that would follow a credible demonstration of cold fusion that no patent law can be held responsible for delaying it. So this value you attach to it, like everything else connected to the field, is illusory.

            “For example, the generated particles may be captured by other nuclei to create new elements, may be used to remediate nuclear waste, may be used to create strategic materials, or may be used to treat cancerous tumors.” Navy/JWK patent.
            The text details an example of groundwater contaminated with the radionuclide technetium (Tc-99) transmuted via neutron capture, to Tc-100 with a half life of 15.8 seconds to Ru-100, which is stable.

            No one denies the value of neutron sources, if you can make them cheaply enough. But if you get one unit of energy for one unit of nuclear waste, and then you have to consume a billion units of energy to remediate that waste, you’re not really further ahead, are you?

          • GreenWin

            October 8, 2013 at 6:50 pm

            Typical of a popeeism “If it really leads to the acceptance of more patents for a non-existent phenomenon, then it is worse than worthless.”

            In one fell swoop popee dismisses the US Navy SPAWAR research, 23 years of LENR proofs and the USPTO. Wow!

            Had popee ANY expertise in a field of science – the weak of mind might listen to him. Since by declaration he has no such expertise – dismissal of his solipsistic opinions is the reliable consensus.

          • popeye

            October 8, 2013 at 8:31 pm

            In one fell swoop popee dismisses the US Navy SPAWAR research, 23 years of LENR proofs and the USPTO. Wow!

            I do my best to write economically, and I’m thrilled you noticed. In these dismissals, I’m in excellent company. SPAWAR shut down their LENR research, which only makes sense if they themselves dismiss the claims. The scientific establishment dismisses the “evidence” for LENR, as is clear from the near-zero publication rate in relevant journals, and the DOE panels’ verdicts, and old and new comments from a long list of Nobel laureates, and from omission by the likes of Hawking and Cox in discussion of fusion power. As for the USPTO, it doesn’t need to be dismissed to recognize that many patents are worthless; it comes with the territory. They do their best to disallow claims completely contrary to verified scientific generalizations, unless evidence is provided, but even in this no one’s perfect.

            Had popee ANY expertise in a field of science – the weak of mind might listen to him. Since by declaration he has no such expertise – dismissal of his solipsistic opinions is the reliable consensus.

            But in fact, the opinions are entirely consistent with the prevailing consensus. And I don’t expect anyone to be persuaded by my credentials, but by arguments based on verifiable observations that I have made over time. Like the observation that the neutron fluxes in the SPAWAR claims are at least a billion times below practical levels. It is possible to have expertise without credentials, and expertise can be demonstrated with logical and verifiable exposition.

          • GreenWin

            October 8, 2013 at 10:44 pm

            Another pathetic, long winded way of popee saying I am a FUDDY DUD. An appeal to “consensus??” to support opinion?? Gee pops along with your geriatric views of publishing you admit to being a consensus lemming?

            “In questions of science, the authority of a [consensus] thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.”
            ― Galileo Galilei

          • popeye

            October 10, 2013 at 3:35 pm

            Do you even hear yourself? In this very exchange, you argued than my humble reasoning should be ignored because it challenges the authority of the “US Navy SPAWAR research, 23 years of LENR proofs and the USPTO”.
            -
            And just a little earlier you questioned how a humble person with no credentials could “purport to dispute real scientists with real credentials?”
            -
            And now you’re saying authority is to be ignored. You’re not making any sense.
            -
            I mentioned the consensus because my humble reasoning is consistent with it, contrary to what you said (“dismissal of his solipsistic opinions is the reliable consensus”).
            -
            Now, Galileo was not talking about a scientific consensus. He was talking about authority of the church, based on superstition. Scientists of his day were quick to accept his reasoning; only the church resisted. And surely, even he would agree that the humble reasoning of a modern-day flat-earther, should be ignored in the face of the current scientific consensus on the shape of the earth.
            -
            In the case of cold fusion, they claim experimental evidence, but even there, people like McKubre (in his recent interview) admit it’s not unequivocal. But there is no humble reasoning to support it. No one has a reasonable explanation.It rather seems more superstitious, the very kind of authority Galileo had no use for, which is why the field attracts so many gullible supporters, who fall for such obvious scams as Rossi. And so, a strong *scientific* consensus that cold fusion is very *unreasonable*, and the absence of unequivocal (or even compelling) evidence that it happens, it is almost certainly bogus.
            -
            Cold fusion is not like Galileo’s telescope or Wegener’s continental drift. It’s much more like Blondlott’s N-rays, Fedyakin’s polywater, the alchemists’ gold from lead, Lorentz’s ether, Le Verrier’s planet vulcan, Popoff’s faith healing, L Ron Hubbard’s Xenu, Uri Geller’s bent spoon, Madoff’s Ponzi scheme, Agricola’s dowsing, Hahnemann’s homeopathy, Wakefield’s autism from vaccines, and a thousand other blind alleys, delusions, and scams.

  15. Ransompw Reply

    October 7, 2013 at 6:47 pm

    I see that the three blind mice (ie, Popeye, Potenza and Newman) responded to my call for a prediction on Rossi’s current propaganda. As usual, most of what they had to say was weasel words intended to insult the integrity or knowledge of anyone associating themselves with Rossi. (I speak of the 7 testers and the unknown phantom US company working with Rossi).

    All three made similar comments about the 7 testers and any follow on tests. They are either incompetent or in league with Rossi so who cares. A cop out if ever there was one.

    With regard to the 7 testers, it is clear that they made ajustments to the earlier tests (November through March) in an attempt to eliminate the possibility of error. The suggestion by the three blind mice that the 7 won’t take further steps in any follow on test to resolve issues raised is comical, flies in the face of their actions to date and documents why the three are worthy of my new nickname. (they are indeed blind to reality).

    If Rossi allows the 7 to test further, experience tells us they will try to eliminate ambiguities. I think it is reasonable to wonder if Rossi (assuming he is a fake) will let them make another test. Only blind mice would contend it doesn’t matter before they even see the test results.

    As for Rossi’s partnership with a US Company, Potenza says no way, Popeye says possible because Companies are dumb and Newman thinks it won’t be anyone credible.

    Again, if Rossi is teaming with anyone, only blind mice would ignore the significance.

    My own take on the Rossi thing is that he has a process and continues to work on it. I am much less convinced of its significance than I was 2 years ago. It might be a hereto unknown process with limited commercial possibilites and not nuclear in origin. However, I really doubt the scam scenario. And as usual, I wait and watch to see what happens.

    • JNewman Reply

      October 7, 2013 at 7:20 pm

      Classic Ransome. Some day you will express your views without throwing in gratuitous insults. But I won’t hold my breath.

      I do admire your restructured definition of blind. Apparently, it means seeing something other than what you see. Does that work for you in court?

      So you don’t think Rossi is a scammer and you plan to wait and see what happens. Brave words.

      You don’t like criticism of the fabled 7 esteemed scientists and you are already defending Rossi’s partner without even knowing if they exist. Wonderful.

      Thank you for your insights.

      • Ransompw Reply

        October 7, 2013 at 7:51 pm

        I think it is easy to sit back in your rocking chair and criticize others who are trying to get to the bottom of the Rossi drama and I do think that the 7 have that intent. Levi may also be trying to save face and I do think he may have a bias but I also doubt he would work to deceive.

        But to act like you could do better or Potenza or Popeye actually makes me laugh.

        • JNewman Reply

          October 7, 2013 at 9:05 pm

          Could Al or Popeye or I do better? At what? I (and I’m sure) the others would not participate in a fraudulent “independent” test in which we had no control of the methodology or the instrumentation. In that sense, yes we could do better. Unlike your 7 heroes, I would never take part in such a charade. As for whether I could perform a better test on the device, that is quite irrelevant. II never claimed I could nor must I be able to in order to see the significant shortcomings of the Levi work. Apart from that, only “experts” hand-picked by Rossi will ever get their hands on an ecat. And I mean EVER.

    • popeye Reply

      October 8, 2013 at 2:10 am

      Ransompw wrote:

      All three made similar comments about the 7 testers and any follow on tests. They are either incompetent or in league with Rossi so who cares. A cop out if ever there was one.

      You missed my most important point. Their experiment was done behind closed doors and involves secrets and can’t be checked. That makes it the stuff of magicians’ claims — not science.

      With regard to the 7 testers, it is clear that they made ajustments to the earlier tests (November through March) in an attempt to eliminate the possibility of error. The suggestion by the three blind mice that the 7 won’t take further steps in any follow on test to resolve issues raised is comical,

      Please don’t attribute to me suggestions I did not make. I simply said the world will ignore their claims (regardless of attempts to eliminate errors) until general access to the experiment is made available, so a real (not recruited) 3rd party can test it. From the time the report came out, I have been consistent in that the report would be worthless even if by itself it were impeccable in every way, because it would still require trust, and no revolution should rely on the trust of a few men, no matter how respectable. The report is just not enough. The fact that it is not impeccable, but unprofessional and sloppy underscores its failure. If you can think of a similar revolution that was widely accepted based on this sort of charade, please let me know what it was.
      -
      So, if they take steps to make the experiment generally accessible to people not recruited by Rossi, and respectable organizations with something to lose, openly validate the claims, then we will have something. Rossi has not suggested anything remotely approaching this however.

      … the three are worthy of my new nickname. (they are indeed blind to reality).

      Very clever.

      If Rossi allows the 7 to test further, experience tells us they will try to eliminate ambiguities. I think it is reasonable to wonder if Rossi (assuming he is a fake) will let them make another test. Only blind mice would contend it doesn’t matter before they even see the test results.

      I don’t agree. I think everyone on the planet except a small ragtag band of true believers will contend the test results don’t matter unless the experiment is generally accessible, or a transparent public demo is staged, preferably with zero input.

      As for Rossi’s partnership with a US Company, Potenza says no way, Popeye says possible because Companies are dumb and Newman thinks it won’t be anyone credible.

      Again, it may be convenient for your rebuttal to reduce my argument to 3 words, but that’s not what I said. I said companies may employ one or two dumb people, and without good advice, be tolerant of them for a time.
      -
      Toyota worked with P&F for the better part of a decade. I don’t think Toyota is dumb, but I think their funding was ill-advised. SRI had McKubre working on cold fusion for 2 decades. I don’t think SRI is dumb, since McKubre brought in EPRI funding for part of that time. I do think McKubre is dumb though.
      -
      Partnering with Rossi would be a few steps beneath either of the above partnerships, but still, I wouldn’t rule it out. Nor would I make much of it until some evidence was forthcoming.

      Again, if Rossi is teaming with anyone, only blind mice would ignore the significance.

      The significance would depend on the company and the nature of the partnership. I would not ignore the significance, but I would probably consider it less significant than you.
      -
      I’m old school, and metadata doesn’t do much for me. You should be hoping for evidence of the effect, not more testimonials. Bednorz and Muller were not given the Nobel prize for HTSC because of testimonies and partnerships, but for evidence accessible to anyone.

      My own take on the Rossi thing is that he has a process and continues to work on it.

      Sure, he’s doing stuff and stuff is going on. No argument there. Your polemic though suggests you think it’s more than that.

      However, I really doubt the scam scenario.

      I think it’s almost certainly a scam, but the main point for me is that he has not provided evidence for a nuclear effect, and therefore, the chance that it is one is vanishingly small.

      And as usual, I wait and watch to see what happens.

      It costs nothing to wait and see, and everyone here is doing it, even if some are expecting to see it fail. But at one stage you recommended a billion dollar expenditure. That’s a little more than waiting and seeing.

      • GreenWin Reply

        October 8, 2013 at 4:39 am

        Good Lord, so much drivel from one program. Value equal to that of a Roman vomitorium.

  16. Al Potenza Reply

    October 7, 2013 at 7:13 pm

    “My own take on the Rossi thing is that he has a process and continues to work on it. I am much less convinced of its significance than I was 2 years ago.”
    -
    Ah, but this is where your glaring lack of scientific education and common sense show up along with a general ignorance about what it would mean if Rossi’s “process” really worked. In fact, it would be the most significant invention of the last 100 years.

    You doubt the scam scenario? At this point? What makes you think a US company is partnered with Rossi *other* than that the lying scumbag says so? It might be (fill in what you said). It might be pink invisible flying unicorns. You’re invoking magic.

    Most likely: there is no process, the tests were faked with various clever tricks varying from one demo to another. There is no customer, never was. There is no partner. There are no manufacturing plants. There are no “certifiers”. There is nothing but Rossi, his Miami condo, and a mostly empty, gas-heated wharehouse in Italy where Rossi pays a few folks to make his ugly and useless contraptions.

    • Ransompw Reply

      October 7, 2013 at 7:34 pm

      Potenza:

      Rossi’s “process” doesn’t have to be the most signifcant invention of the last 100 years to actually work. Only a blind mouse would think that.

      As to whether Rossi has partnered with a US Company of any independence, Popeye thinks it is possible, I have no strong opinion. But Rossi has been correct in the past about some of his associations (and wrong quite often as well) so who knows.

      I think your last paragraph is as whacky as you are.

      • RonB Reply

        October 7, 2013 at 7:41 pm

        Lol.. I liked the “ugly contraptions” line and also the newly coined word wharehouse

        • Al Potenza Reply

          October 7, 2013 at 8:27 pm

          I meant wherehouse.

      • JNewman Reply

        October 7, 2013 at 7:49 pm

        Well, when you once again tire of the blind mice, you can disappear for awhile again. Two years in and you have gone from buying it hook-line-and-sinker to sagacious sensing of unknown problems but, essentially, still buying it. We skeptics are good at waiting and seeing too. We’ll see what sort of lame rationalization you come up with in another year (or two) to disguise your gullibility.

        • Ransompw Reply

          October 7, 2013 at 7:56 pm

          Newman:

          I don’t “buy it”, I think it is still possible (much less so than I did 2 years ago). So I haven’t simply given up coming to this site and reading the same old nonsense from you and Al. If the 7 don’t do further tests and we never hear from Rossi’s partner and nothing else develops, I will of course stop watching.

          • JNewman

            October 7, 2013 at 8:09 pm

            Right. Some of us actually point out the glaring flaws, inconsistencies, outright lies, and huge missing pieces of information from Rossi and his ilk and this you call “nonsense”. Meanwhile, any sort of crap thrown out by the faithful is convincing to you.

            Like your more ridiculous brethren here, you somehow think that belittling and castigating skeptics lends credibility to the LENR cause. It doesn’t. In fact, it does exactly the opposite. Your “side” has nothing but BS to offer and shouting down the critics only proves it.

            But no worries, you will stick around. “Nothing else develops” is an opening that a fleet of trucks can drive through. I am sure “something else” will develop in this pathetic saga and you will be around for years to come, smugly pointing out your superior assessment of the situation and cautioning us all to “wait and see”.

          • Al Potenza

            October 7, 2013 at 8:30 pm

            “nothing else develops”?

            Nothing *has* developed whereas if Rossi were telling anything close to truth, he’d be a gazillionaire by now.

            The “7″ are not qualified to do tests and should never have done tests. Tests should have been done at a famous university participating officially… or at a national laboratory as we have noted many times. Or by NASA. Rossi had a shot at NASA but conveniently, his device wouldn’t run the two days NASA people visited him. It couldn’t run because they would have been able to tell it doesn’t work.

          • Ransompw

            October 7, 2013 at 8:47 pm

            Potenza:

            Sure something developed. Rossi claimed the Hot Cat was being tested and it was. Now he is saying the group is doing follow on tests, that was the point of my post. Are they doing follow on tests, if so that would be “Something”.

            And if Rossi can’t take his lab experiment (assuming it works for a few hours) and turn it into a viable product it wouldn’t be worth anything. (especially if the mechanism was unclear). So your point is just nonsensical.

          • Ransompw

            October 7, 2013 at 8:49 pm

            Newman:

            You do a great job of pointing out those things that support your opinion and utterly ignore anything that doesn’t. But alas, it is impossible to make BLIND MICE SEE.

          • JNewman

            October 7, 2013 at 9:08 pm

            I’m warning you, Ransome. If you call me a blind mouse one more time, I’m going to tell teacher on you.

          • popeye

            October 8, 2013 at 2:11 am

            If the 7 don’t do further tests and we never hear from Rossi’s partner and nothing else develops, I will of course stop watching.

            Hmmm. You will never know that nothing else develops, and you will only know that further tests by the 7 won’t be done when they all die, so that’s a safe statement.
            -
            So come on, have the courage and the kindness to give a date. How else can I ever say “I told you so”, even if no one’s listening?

          • popeye

            October 8, 2013 at 2:13 am

            Sure something developed. Rossi claimed the Hot Cat was being tested and it was.

            When the same sorts of things happen over and over for 25 years, they really don’t look like developments except to the true believers who need to feed their delusion. Rossi’s demos in 2011 were more impressive than this discredited, unrefereed, report in a preprint archive that describes an experiment by 7 nobodies, done in secret, with a proprietary device, that can’t be checked. At least in 2011, the demos were semi-public, so we know something happened, and he was at least somewhat constrained by outside viewers.
            -
            Cold fusion is a claim of energy density a million times higher than chemical. A development would be represented by an actual experiment or device that anyone could perform or fire up and verify for themselves that it’s real, preferably without input power. Endless claims of excess heat that are not reproducible and lame COPs that can’t be checked and more associations and more testimonies represents business as usual, not developments.

          • Ransompw

            October 8, 2013 at 5:48 am

            Popeye:

            The energy density comment is a red herring. It all depends on reaction frequency.

          • popeye

            October 8, 2013 at 11:28 am

            Reaction frequency is relevant, but the thing that distinguished nuclear energy from chemical, and makes it so interesting and desirable, is the energy density. Not a red herring.

    • GreenWin Reply

      October 7, 2013 at 8:57 pm

      Thanks for posting Dale. It’s a very interesting interview indicating the support SRI is giving to commercial LENR products.

  17. RonB Reply

    October 7, 2013 at 7:40 pm

    Jed sure seems to believe in the possibility and seems to be privy to a bit of insider information.

    • R Hopeful Reply

      October 7, 2013 at 8:02 pm

      I have nothing against Jed, but he has only words to show -like most other LENR players.

      That is the problem.

  18. BigWillyJohnson Reply

    October 7, 2013 at 8:17 pm

    I love this reasoning:

    Because Rossi hasn’t lied all the time, (only most of the time), he may not be lying this time.

    Wishfulthinking.jpg

    When can someone logically conclude someone is a liar and that their statements, especially those concerning revolutionary breakthroughs in physics, should not be taken seriously? I guess only if every single statement they make is a lie. If some of them are not then you have to weight and sea.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      October 7, 2013 at 8:31 pm

      Rossi is ALWAYS evasive and tangential. His demos ALWAYS leave room for doubt and have huge holes in their methodology. This is classical operating procedure for an obvious and flagrant scammer.

      • Ransompw Reply

        October 7, 2013 at 8:38 pm

        Potenza you are funny, the demos are always Rossi’s demo’s even when they are someone elses.

      • RonB Reply

        October 7, 2013 at 8:42 pm

        His demos ALWAYS leave room for doubt and have huge holes in their methodology.

        Technically that can’t be stated as true unless you’ve seen all his demos or know the exact circumstances of all. Right?

        More correctly, the demos we’ve seen or read the reports of… which sure seem the case.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          October 7, 2013 at 8:55 pm

          Yeah, right. The ones we’ve seen and have seen reports of.

          Rothwell CLAIMS to be privy to more than that but he’s incredibly gullible and he believes what other people tell him– for example, that Defkalion dupe, Jim Dunn, probably Nelson and other similar flakes.

    • Ransompw Reply

      October 7, 2013 at 8:34 pm

      Willy:

      I don’t know about weight and sea, but considering the significance of a revolutionary breakthrough, one might want to wait and see before concluding like the three blind mice. Especially, since history tells us that revolutionary or evolutionary breakthroughs always do occur.

      • Al Potenza Reply

        October 7, 2013 at 8:54 pm

        “weight and sea”
        -
        Really? You don’t have to be able to spell to be a lowwyear I guess.

        • Tony2 Reply

          October 8, 2013 at 12:17 am

          Al,

          “Weight and sea” was another brilliant General Z line.

          Somebody was expressing their opinion that we should “wait and see” about Rossi.

          The General said he’d prefer the “weight and sea” approach. Tremendous.

          And no matter what becomes of this whole charade, we’ll always have what I consider to be one of the funniest and most appropriate, word-twisted nicknames ever devised. And, yes, also by the General.

          “Il Douche”.

          I’m not a man who uses profanity lightly but the first time I saw that I damn near pissed my pants I was laughing so hard.

          Tony2

          • Bigwilly

            October 9, 2013 at 5:20 am

            Yea it was his own weight and see method for overly raucous poster.

            Something along the lines of:

            you weight the feet and place in the sea, then look for cold fusion or something

      • popeye Reply

        October 8, 2013 at 2:14 am

        I don’t know about weight and sea, but considering the significance of a revolutionary breakthrough, one might want to wait and see before concluding like the three blind mice. Especially, since history tells us that revolutionary or evolutionary breakthroughs always do occur.

        A lot of believers are absolutely certain about LENR, and some even about Rossi. I for one express only near certainty. But it’s one thing to wait and see; quite another to spend public funds on every single claim ever made, no matter how whacky, because you know, revolutions happen.

        • Ransompw Reply

          October 8, 2013 at 4:55 am

          Public funds? Who is talking about public funds? For the most part, the larger the funding the bigger the boondoggle. I certainly wouldn’t want you directing more than a few $ of my taxes.

          • popeye

            October 8, 2013 at 11:29 am

            Public funds? Who is talking about public funds?

            Why, you, for one. Often. And many other advocates including pretty well all the usual suspects.
            -
            Back in March of 2012, you wrote: “I would suggest a U.S. budget of at least 1 Billion a year for the next five years should be spent in grants for any LENR experiment at qualified Universities. That would be a good start.”
            -
            And in late 2012, you were proposing to cross-exam me for the proposition that public funding should occur.
            -
            In the spring of this year, you were still advocating it: “…public spending (if LENR turns out to be real) could very well and probably would have advanced the results.”
            -
            It’s true that a billion a year is only a few bucks per person, but the same argument would be applied to get funding for nuclear energy from witches’ brew, dowsing, crystal healing, crop circles, ESP, and necromancy, because, dontcha know, revolutions happen.

          • Ransompw

            October 8, 2013 at 4:04 pm

            If I wanted public funding, I’d lobby for it. I have in the past for issues I thought important.

            If you want to have a discussion about it, public funding is probably better than no public funding but I really have little interest in pushing that issue.

            I would be happy however to stop funding high energy fusion technology. It would force highly educated physicists and engineers to find something worthwhile to do.

          • popeye

            October 8, 2013 at 4:36 pm

            So when you suggested a billion a year, you were just kidding? Or have you changed your mind?

          • Ransompw

            October 8, 2013 at 6:40 pm

            The problem I have with budgets like the one for Hot Fusion which in 2013 was about 400M is that they never go away. Over time they tend to turn into jobs programs and won’t end because of momentum. Rarely are they judged by some objective measure of success.

            I’d feel exactly the same way about US Government support for Cold Fusion had there been constant funding by the taxpayers for many years. Since there hasn’t been any significant funding I have no problem allocating some effort to it. However, currently, I see no compelling reason to start funding.

            Thus, I would support a budget for Cold Fusion, even a budget of a billion if it ends promptly and was judged by objective results, but I certainly wouldn’t lobby for it.

            By the way, I don’t really consider the $ spent on cold fusion by private funding very efficient. A lot of marginal funding, a lot of duplication and a lot of repeat funding on obvious dead ends. Not to mention some funding for efforts which are never disclosed.

          • JNewman

            October 8, 2013 at 7:17 pm

            The amount of money spent on researching a specific problem depends very much on what is required to do the work. For better or worse, hot fusion experiments require enormous, elaborate and expensive machinery. There are no $10,000 tokamaks.

            So if there was $1 billion to be spent on cold fusion, how would it be spent? Building 50,000 tube furnaces? Buying up the world’s supply of shipping containers? Where would the money go? Unless the infinite number of monkeys approach is what is needed, there is only so much any particular researcher or group of researchers can spend sensibly on this stuff.

            As I have said before, cold fusion research isn’t suffering from a lack of funding. It is suffering from a lack of scientific rigor on the part of its proponents.

    • BigWillyJohnson Reply

      October 7, 2013 at 8:34 pm

      Yea Al,

      But what about that one time he said he had a wife and he actually did have a wife???

      So maybe this time he isnt lying

      • Ransompw Reply

        October 7, 2013 at 8:41 pm

        How about the time he said the hot cat was being tested by others and it was. And the time he said it was being tested in November of 2012 and there was a big problem and sure enough it melted during the test. And how about the time he said they tested it again in December and sure enough they did. And how about the time he said they tested it again in March and sure enough they did.

        Sorry Willy it isn’t nearly as clear cut as Big Al would like things to be.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          October 7, 2013 at 8:53 pm

          How about the time he told Levi the time and he was right! Wow. No he doesn’t lie ALL the time. Nobody does.

          He just lies about university associations, working with NI, having an automated robotic factory, making nuclear devices in the US without the NRA knowing about it, getting “indipendent” testing, and almost everything else related to that lame piece of junk he calls an ecat.

          As for the meltdown, that’s as easy as turning up the current on the power supply plugged into the three phase gigantic high current mains source. That where all Rossi’s power comes from anyway!

          • Ransompw

            October 7, 2013 at 10:23 pm

            Al:

            You obviously can’t identify the difference between reality and your imagination. That is why you treat them the same.

        • popeye Reply

          October 8, 2013 at 2:16 am

          How about the time he said the hot cat was being tested by others and it was….

          He started saying the third party test was finished testing in mid 2012 (e.g. “After the validation of the Hot Cat made on July 16th we made today another Third Party Validation, with the Certificator: the results have been the same of the test made on July 16th. The power of the Hot Cat is 10 kW.” Aug 7, 2012), and he said it repeatedly after that. He said a video would be provided, it would be peer reviewed and published in a science magazine. Finally, in spring 2013 they publish a report of the first tests performed with people outside his own circle, done in 2013, the better part of a year after he said they had completed third party tests. It’s not peer reviewed, it’s not in a science magazine, there’s no video, and the power is a couple of kW instead of 10, and his true believers trumpet his honesty. Truly a case of delusion.

          • Ransompw

            October 8, 2013 at 4:42 am

            I didn’t trumpet his honesty, I said he sometimes tells the truth. And really, science magazines? How old school? You must be old.

          • popeye

            October 8, 2013 at 11:30 am

            Telling the truth is about honesty. And yes, science magazines. That’s what Rossi said, and it was not true. Anyway, popeye is ageless, like Dorian Gray, and what I know is that publication in refereed journals (aka science magazines), whether on-line or on paper, is still increasing in the internet age, and that it is still the most important figure of merit for scientists when they are judged for hiring, promotion, grants, and awards. In short, it establishes credibility.

    • GreenWin Reply

      October 7, 2013 at 8:47 pm

      Agree Willy. Take CH2M Hill, admitted to federal, civil and criminal violations of the law – they lied to their DOE oversight for YEARS according to the United States Department of Justice. Their reward for defrauding the American people? Fat contracts to “defend” some of our most sensitive nuclear security sites. Criminals running the show??

      Seriously??

      http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2011/September/11-civ-1242.html

  19. Al Potenza Reply

    October 7, 2013 at 8:45 pm

    Rothwell is embarrassing!

    “My understanding is that he cannot run the hot cat without close, active
    control. The model that ran in HAD mode was the older low temperature
    version. I do not think he can run a hot cat in HAD for hours. My guess is
    that it would melt, as it did in the first Elforsk visit.

    I understand why people want to see a self-sustaining, stand alone,
    kilowatt-scale reactor. I would like to see that myself. It would be deeply
    satisfying to me, personally. It would be a vindication of my work.
    However, I do not think it would have any scientific or engineering
    significance. It would not prove anything we do not already know. Nor do I
    think it would convince any the hardcore skeptics. I understand why Rossi
    is reluctant to do it. It would be a distraction.

    Even after commercial cold fusion becomes available, I expect it will be
    controlled by mains electricity for many years to come. Controlled and
    triggered. We already have mains electricity everywhere. We might as well
    use it to simplify the design. Stand alone, self sustaining reactors will
    be needed in some applications such as vehicle propulsion, battery
    replacements and small generators for emergencies or remote locations.
    Eventually, that technology will mature and we will no longer need mains
    electricity.”

    -on Vortex.

    • Jami Reply

      October 8, 2013 at 10:11 am

      “My guess is that it would melt, as it did in the first Elforsk visit.”

      Ahh – so now it was “the first Elforsk visit”. Perhaps Jed should sift through his collection of anecdotes and change all the “Levi says” bits to “the first Elforsk visit”, “the very first Elforsk visit” or the “preparational Elforsk visit” in order to make them sound better. Peter Gluck calling Nelson’s stroll through DGT’s office “the NASA validation” and his nonsensical blog posts “papers” has apparently raised the standards for self delusion.

  20. Jordi Heguilor Reply

    October 8, 2013 at 4:27 am

    Good news for the world, bad news for GW:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24429621

    • R Hopeful Reply

      October 8, 2013 at 5:10 am

      Let’see. Does this report pass the credible independent test criteria?:

      Supervised by a third party:no
      Results verified with third party instruments: no
      Carried out in an independent facility: no
      Produces energy without input:no
      Produces clearly COP much greater than 1: no

      So, why the heck do you give this waste of money any credibility? Just because they convinced the government to throw in a few billions?

      • popeye Reply

        October 8, 2013 at 11:33 am

        You’re applying criteria to hot fusion used for Rossi’s claims, but there are important differences:
        -
        1) Hot fusion research is open. There are no secret sauces or proprietary methods. Anyone can undergo suitable training and participate in the research. Any one (suitably qualified) can have access to all the results, and make of them what they will.
        -
        2) The experimental results are unequivocal and reproducible and consistent with well-understood theory, if not perfectly aligned with simulations. As such, the reported results are not controversial, and even opponents of the funding do not challenge them.
        -
        3) They have not made any claims of high COP or self-sufficiency (let alone commercial viability), so expectations are different. The COP claimed in cold fusion should make self-sufficiency easy, and Rossi has said he has commercial devices on the market since 2011.
        -
        By the way, what they call break even in hot fusion is when the nuclear energy produced equals the input energy. In cold fusion lingo, that would correspond to a COP of 2.
        -
        But I agree with GW that this latest claim is little more than PR, because break-even does not represent any particular milestone, other than possibly psychological. At least 5 times the input energy is needed to reach ignition because 80% of the nuclear energy is carried out of the pellet as neutrons.
        -
        As for why the research is funded and has some credibility, it is because they have made steady, quantifiable progress, and enough experts consider it worth the risk.

        • GreenWin Reply

          October 8, 2013 at 3:20 pm

          More utter BS from the black & white BS cartoon – popee!

          “Hot fusion research is open. There are no secret sauces or proprietary methods.”

          Wrong again. According to the journal sycophant popee worships:

          “After an unsuccessful campaign to demonstrate the principles of a futuristic fusion power plant, the world’s most powerful laser facility [NIF] is set to change course and emphasize its nuclear weapons research.” Nature, November 8, 2012

          Few components of nuke weapons research are NOT classified. Especially at LLNL. A veritable buffet of proprietary entrees, covered by mounds of secret sauces. Only a cartoon would try to convince us otherwise.

          • popeye

            October 8, 2013 at 4:33 pm

            The civilian power research can be open, even while the weapons research is classified.
            -
            Anyway, the most important difference is that in hot fusion no one is claiming a breakthrough that contradicts 60 years of scientific generalizations already accumulated and verified. The standards for that are different.

        • R Hopeful Reply

          October 8, 2013 at 3:44 pm

          You are right, there are other criteria to establish the validity of scientific research.

          While the hot fusion theory is well understood, the engineering required is too far away from practical. And that is exactly the excuse: it is only engineering, if we get more money we will make it work.

          There is some BS out there presented as research. Hot fusion is only attractive because it promises large money inflows for a long time.

          To ensure a reliable supply of cheap energy the money should go into improving fission: the theory is very well established and the engineering problems are manageable. But that is only my opinion.

          If the only alternative is Rossi, I think we are doomed.

          • popeye

            October 8, 2013 at 4:36 pm

            While the hot fusion theory is well understood, the engineering required is too far away from practical. And that is exactly the excuse: it is only engineering, if we get more money we will make it work.

            How far from practical is of course unknown, and for my part, I’m happy to leave the decisions to those who have studied it closely.

            Hot fusion is only attractive because it promises large money inflows for a long time.

            Only to those doing the research, and the personal inflows are not exceptional. To the DOE and the government it represents, hot fusion promises large money *outflows* for a long time, and is therefore *unattractive* to them. They have to be convinced by a plausible scientific and engineering case to give up the cash.

            To ensure a reliable supply of cheap energy the money should go into improving fission: the theory is very well established and the engineering problems are manageable. But that is only my opinion.

            Again, I don’t know enough about hot fusion to understand the odds, though I’m inclined to support the gamble. But I do agree fission should be pushed. It’s already proven to be 100 times less malignant to our species than fossil fuel (in spite of the corruption), and that’s without considering CO2 emission.

          • R Hopeful

            October 8, 2013 at 4:58 pm

            “They have to be convinced by a plausible scientific and engineering case to give up the cash.”

            The point that I would like to make: the amount of investment is not necessarily correlated with the merits of the technology.

            First there is politics -or perception. Hot fusion sounds like a great idea, because it would deliver cheap clean energy, so it is relatively easy to justify the investment to the public.

            And researchers are attracted to fields with large investment. There are more researchers publishing papers, so something is being delivered. These guys, and their contractors, will push for more investment, so over time you have more support coming from insiders.

            At the end you can have a self-sustaining pile of BS.

            Sorry if I sound harsh to the scientific community. I know that scientists have the right -and the duty- to be wrong sometimes, but they should acknowledge mistakes when they are cheap.

          • Al Potenza

            October 8, 2013 at 8:51 pm

            “But I do agree fission should be pushed. It’s already proven to be 100 times less malignant to our species than fossil fuel (in spite of the corruption), and that’s without considering CO2 emission.”
            -
            Well, yes and no. The potential harm of spent fuel is unrealized but it’s there nonetheless. Until that problem is solved, and it has no practical solution as yet in place in the US, I don’t think more plants, using present technology which makes huge amounts of radioactive waste, should be built.

          • popeye

            October 10, 2013 at 3:40 pm

            The potential harm of spent fuel is unrealized but it’s there nonetheless. Until that problem is solved, and it has no practical solution as yet in place in the US, I don’t think more plants, using present technology which makes huge amounts of radioactive waste, should be built.

            This is off-topic, but I don’t agree. There are dozens of studies showing the feasibility of deep geological disposal in rock formations that have been stable for hundreds of millions to billions of years. Many natural reactors have been discovered since the 70s. The one in Gabon Africa was active for more than 100,000 years, and the the waste products from it remained immobile for 1.5 billion years.
            -
            Waste disposal is not a serious problem, except for its psychological impact, quite apart from the fact that most of what is currently waste, will probably become valuable in the future. There may not be a suitable site in the US, but it’s a big planet, and there certainly are suitable sites elsewhere (like the Canadian Shield, which has been stable for hundreds of millions of years — billion year old water reservoirs have been discovered).
            -
            Admittedly, convincing the Canadians to take the waste is a problem, but it’s not a technical one. Even though political and social problems are preventing growth of the industry, research should continue so that when irrational fears subside, or are overshadowed by real and rational fears of the practical alternatives, we will benefit from improved technology and more efficient deployment.

          • GreenWin

            October 14, 2013 at 12:56 am

            The Navy/JWK cold fusion patent outlines a nuke waste remediation process utilizing its proven transmutation capabilities. Popee’s non-human mandate is to deny these capabilities as they might further empower the human race to determine its own future. NOTE: Popee (and related pseudonyms) refuse to answer a pointed question: Are you a nonhuman entity?

            Popee’s ghastly origins aside, the American people own the important technology in the Navy/JWK cold fusion patent, which by political subterfuge has been assigned to NSTech LLC, a private guv’ment contractor guilty of national security negligence and federal, civil and criminal violations of the law. i.e. a criminal organization.

            We continue to call upon Congress to nullify any control or assignment of the Navy/JWK patent to NSTech LLC, and reassign or license said patent to independent, third parties genuinely interested nuclear waste remediation. Which is of course a huge benefit to taxpayers and humankind.

          • popeye

            October 14, 2013 at 5:51 am

            The Navy/JWK cold fusion patent outlines a nuke waste remediation process utilizing its proven transmutation capabilities. Popee’s non-human mandate is to deny these capabilities

            The literature upon which the patent is based denies the existence of such capabilities. The highest neutron flux claimed is at least a billion times too low to be useful for waste remediation. That is, to remediate the waste from the production of 1 joule of energy would require a billion joules using the method described by the SPAWAR papers — that is assuming even that were correct, which it almost certainly isn’t.

    • GreenWin Reply

      October 8, 2013 at 5:13 am

      Good news is never bad for GW… Since NIF manager Ed Moses quit (October 1) they’re trying out new PR tactics. Here’s my favorite:

      Let’s send the DOE to Alpha Centauri Don’t laugh. These guys are serious.

      http://www.physicstoday.org/resource/1/phtoad/v66/i9/p8_s1?bypassSSO=1

    • ts Reply

      October 9, 2013 at 4:21 am

      I read the article. The key word is “absorbed”. They probably didn’t say “input” for a reason. If, for example, they input 1MW , with 300kw measured as absorbed, and an output of 310kw, does that count as overunity?

      • popeye Reply

        October 10, 2013 at 3:47 pm

        I read the article. The key word is “absorbed”. They probably didn’t say “input” for a reason. If, for example, they input 1MW , with 300kw measured as absorbed, and an output of 310kw, does that count as overunity?

        Yes, it does. Even if the output were only 1 W, it would be over-unity (but not break-even) as the term is used in the world of free energy.
        -
        There seems to be a lot of confusion about this over on ECW as well, where they seem to equate a COP of 1 with break even. But it’s not.
        -
        In cold fusion, particularly Rossi’s version of it, the input energy is eventually converted to heat, and measured by their “calorimetry”. The output, allegedly from nuclear reactions, is also claimed to result in heat which is also detected by the same measurements. So, if they measure heat out equal to energy in, that’s a COP of 1, and corresponds to zero excess heat (heat from nuclear).
        -
        If the *excess* heat equals the input energy, then the output would be twice the input, for a COP of 2.
        -
        Now, in the ICF experiments, all the input power that does not end up as laser energy, is also eventually dissipated as heat, and if you put a calorimeter around the entire building, you could in principle measure that. The energy generated from nuclear fusion also eventually ends up as heat, and if that were also measured, then there would be excess heat, and in the lingo of free energy, that would be over-unity, and the COP would be greater than 1. Of course, if you did this, given the low efficiency of lasers, it would only be a tiny bit greater than 1.
        -
        But in ICF, they’re not stupid, like they are in cold fusion. They measure the presence of fusion (excess energy) by detecting commensurate radiation, because they understand the reactions that are taking place. So, they can measure the *excess* energy without ambiguity. But producing a tiny excess energy (COP slightly above 1) is not particularly useful. The goal is to produce copious excess energy that dwarfs the total input, or there would be no point.
        -
        Now, in comparing the output from ICF to the input, the relevant input metric is the *absorbed* energy for a very good reason. We know that the absorbed energy is enough to raise the temperature to the necessary level to cause fusion. Therefore, if the fusion itself can produce the same *absorbed* energy (on the same time scale), then it can sustain itself. That’s what they call ignition. When that happens, the output increases many many-fold (limited by the fuel in the pellet), and any question of laser efficiency becomes trivial.
        -
        The problem is that only a fraction of the output nuclear energy is absorbed as heat by the pellet. About 80% escapes. So, what they call break-even, where the output energy equals the absorbed energy, is short of the condition for ignition by about a factor of 5 or so. Touting this as a milestone is therefore strictly psychological. It does indicate progress, but they are still well short of ignition, at which point, the output from one pellet would greatly exceed all the input required to trigger ignition in that pellet. Of course, even if they achieve that, converting that success into a practical power plant, where the output is then converted into electricity to power the lasers and our cities, is another matter entirely.

        • GreenWin Reply

          October 14, 2013 at 1:18 am

          Nuke shill popee continues to argue from his uncredentialed pretense to scientific knowledge. Yet by his own admission, he has no science background, education or expertise.

          One might wonder why it is that such an unqualified scientific wannabe would bother to bluster his amateur opinions on an LENR discussion site, if he were not a corrupt shill for LENR opponents.

          As Popee has yet to deny he is a nonhuman; speculation need not be long.

          • popeye

            October 14, 2013 at 5:55 am

            One might wonder why it is that such an unqualified scientific wannabe would bother to bluster his amateur opinions on an LENR discussion site, if he were not a corrupt shill for LENR opponents.

            What happened to “Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.” ? Or “In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.” ?

            And one might wonder why an admittedly unqualified ignoramus would bluster his amateur opinions in favor of the ecat if he were not a well-paid shill for Rossi.

  21. Dr Bob Reply

    October 8, 2013 at 9:27 am

    I know of no reason
    Why the gunpowder treason
    Should ever be fought

    • Al Potenza Reply

      October 8, 2013 at 8:48 pm

      You should have stopped with the first line.

  22. Dale G. Basgall Reply

    October 8, 2013 at 7:42 pm

    After listening to the McKubre interview apparent is the cost of doing the correct measurements. That small 350K + calorimeter investment plus set up that ended up costing 1M there and about is the reason we are not in the loop of knowledge for development of the LENR.

    20 years – Millions of dollars – professional scientists with credentials over and above since they are the ones doing the experiments leave me hopeful. It appears for sure though small potatoes finance is not going to get this LENR out there as a product.

    Exampled is the Rossi and Defkalion approach, peanuts to almonds for under 50 bucks. Now that is clearly not the case. A LENR reactor will most likely cost around 15 to 20 K for 1Kw per hour at best guess and possibly they would make units to serve a specific area.

    For sure research has proven there was no scam intended by Rossi or Defkalion, they were as excited as us to have one of the working LENR reactors. They were just gambling on making the developments worth money so they could proceed with their businesses claimed.

    Nothing wrong with making those extraordinary claims of product to collect investment money to proceed with experimentation.

    So what would you actually call that? Someone that contends they have a product but the product is in it’s infancy and does not actually exist as a product yet. Then continue on claims as it did exist or soon would. Simply a lie of perpetual nature to gain publicity.

    • JNewman Reply

      October 8, 2013 at 8:33 pm

      “For sure research has proven there was no scam intended by Rossi or Defkalion.”

      For sure?

      You should watch that Maui Wowie!

    • Deleo77 Reply

      October 8, 2013 at 10:26 pm

      I listened to the McKubre interview and the Ed Storms interview last month as well. I thought both of them seemed like well-spoken, very intelligent researchers. I did cringe a little when they both spoke of Rossi and DGT. They both seem to give Rossi and DGT the benefit of the doubt on a few things, and I think that neither Rossi or DGT at this point deserve the benefit of the doubt. The burden is entirely on them to prove that they have something, anything.

      I know some posters here are just as down on LENR in general as they are Rossi and DGT. I think they should definitely be viewed in different lights. Whether it is McKubre, Storms, Hagelstein or Duncan, there are several reasonable researchers who are trying to study this field to see if there is anything there. So no investor scams, or false promises. I don’t have any problems with that.

      • Al Potenza Reply

        October 9, 2013 at 12:50 am

        You should cringe a LOT. Rossi and Defkalion are the acid test for those who believe in woo. It determines who is gullible. I already knew McKrubre was because he attends respectfully to the silly bullsh*t from the Rohners about the idiotic claims of the known fraudster and nut case Papp.

        I had previously thought Storms was careful and reasonable and in some things he is. But in giving uncritical mention to Rossi and Defkalion without reservation and concern about their obvious scammy behavior and lack of proper testing or sales after so much elapsed time, he reveals himself to be as woowoo as any other woomeister.

        • Bigwilly Reply

          October 9, 2013 at 2:39 am

          Woomiester is a pretty cool word. I like all that it encompasses.

          Al, if you were writing a urban dictionary definition how would woomiester read?

          Thanks
          BW

        • Bernie Koppenhofer Reply

          October 9, 2013 at 3:58 pm

          Al Potenza If your purpose is to bury LENR, I agree, you must attack Dr. Storms. Nice try but he is above reproach.

          • JNewman

            October 9, 2013 at 4:02 pm

            If your purpose is to be honest, nobody is above reproach.

          • Al Potenza

            October 9, 2013 at 6:01 pm

            Bernie, don’t be your usual idiot. How the heck could I bury Dr. Storms if someone actually had a working LENR generator?

            Problem for him is that nobody does and the probability is very high that Defkalion and Rossi are crooks! That’s his problem — not little old anonymous me on the internet!

            Bernie, you’re so silly. Aren’t you tired of waiting for nothing after all these years and getting only bad tests done by ignorant, careless and gullible people? Yikes!

      • R Hopeful Reply

        October 9, 2013 at 3:51 am

        I think the respectable researchers don’t pay much attention to Rossi and DGT. When DGT showed the demo at ICCF the attendees were quite cold, and a couple guys where making pointed hostile questions.
        At the time the lack of attention seemed odd to me, because the demo looked impressive.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          October 9, 2013 at 6:02 pm

          Ah. Then you didn’t know what you were seeing. The “demo” was sloppy and not independent. It was ripe for either fraud or error. It certainly failed to rule out either.

          The fine folks at Defkalion seem to lack a basic understanding of heat transfer engineering and physics. They also have no ability to do decent manufacture and packaging of equipment. Their stuff looked kludgy and badly assembled. Not as nasty as the junk parts Rossi sticks together but not proper lab equipment either. But it’s really the lack of independent testing that’s telling.

          Based on the deleted forum’s ghost which still can be downloaded, Hadjichristos (his style is all over that forum) is tangential in his responses which are for the most part uninformative, sarcastic, arrogant and nasty. Where he made predictions and gave schedule, not one thing happened as he said. That also does not inspire confidence.

          • Shane D.

            October 10, 2013 at 2:00 am

            Maybe you should read Hopefuls post again Al.

            He said the DGT video feed was met with a “cold” and “hostile” reception from the ICCF 18 audience. So, do you take exception with that? Right up your negative alley if you ask me… but I could be wrong.

            And also, apparently DGT also accepts that their demo was “sloppy” (in your words), and have pledged to rectify that as I understand from Radio 24 yesterday.

          • RonB

            October 10, 2013 at 2:41 am

            and have pledged to rectify that as I understand from Radio 24 yesterday.

            Did they mention a time frame?

          • JNewman

            October 10, 2013 at 3:49 am

            I have to hand it to believers for the amount of troubling stuff that they simply ignore. Rossi and DGT have supposedly been working on commercial LENR reactors for more than two years. Along the way they have made all sorts of claims, none of which has ever proven to be true. And when they finally show anything to the world in the form of “public” tests, what we see is crude, makeshift hardware that looks like an initial experiment that was hastily thrown together in the lab. And then tests are performed that are themselves crude, makeshift and poorly thought out.

            Anybody but a true believer would have to wonder, just what the heck have these people been working on for two years allegedly with a team of experts? An old tube furnace strapped to a corroded aluminum frame? Some beat-up flanges wired together with various scraps? And they never figured out how to properly test any of it? Does this really stand to reason?

            The question is: where is the good stuff? Where are the fruits of all that labor?

            Of course, true believers will rationalize all of this. They don’t show the good stuff because they don’t want to incite the competition. Or their secret overlords won’t let them. Or they aren’t doing it because they are paranoid. Or they can’t because of some sort of patent nonsense. Or they aren’t because there is no good reason to do so. Yada yada yada.

            Really, anybody but a true believer would draw the obvious and overwhelmingly probable conclusion: neither Rossi nor DGT actually has anything nor have they ever. But nothing will ever make a true believer face that reality.

          • Shane D.

            October 10, 2013 at 4:35 am

            Ron,

            No. No time frame. It was a one sentence comment with no clarification, but since they are the ones who sponsored the DGT public demo this July, I give it some credence.

            Surely, as we all know, DGT has been subject to healthy credible criticism from friendly types, including from their very own European Division, so it isn’t a stretch to believe they have decided to do it again… This time with more transparency.

          • Shane D.

            October 10, 2013 at 4:41 am

            JN,

            If this were an easily engineered process then it would have unambiguously revealed itself to humankind long ago. Also, if it were so easily triggered, we would have been consumed in a fiery inferno before life could establish itself.

            Patience. Two years is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

          • JNewman

            October 10, 2013 at 5:08 am

            Patience is not really the issue, Shane. You and your brethren became convinced that Rossi and DGT had something truly important two years ago based on what they claimed at that time. Now, two years later, you seem quite comfortable with the idea that they currently have far less even than they said back then despite the passage of time. The question is: why would you still believe that they have anything? Don’t bother answering. You would just recite the usual litany of unconvincing meta-data. Lots of hearsay and testimonials from dubious sources. And yes, the random collection of unknown scientists who produced the silly Levi paper are dubious sources. But if you want to continue to wait for your ship to come in, by all means do so. It does not appear that Rossi or DGT can disappoint you no matter how many lies they tell or how little they actually do. So enjoy yourself. Be patient.

          • Ransompw

            October 10, 2013 at 1:56 pm

            Newman:

            Patience may not be THE issue but it is an issue. The last two years have certainly altered the perception of the odds Rossi and DGT have discovered an energy breakthrough, but not the significance it might have if true.

            Al and company (including you) have made their point clear, NOTHING real behind the claims. Maybe, but as from the beginning, commercial development takes time and so, while less likely than at the beginning, it is still possible Rossi and DGT are working the tech, looking for solutions to take a lab experiment to commercial reality. Only the odds have changed with time, not the ability to conclude with certainty.

          • JNewman

            October 10, 2013 at 2:31 pm

            As always, you have a bee in your bonnet about concluding with certainty. One does not need to conclude with certainty in order to have and express an opinion. If you read my post carefully, I say that Rossi and DGT having nothing is the overwhelmingly probable conclusion, not the only possible conclusion. There is a difference. Of course, to argue the way you do, you must think that it is still quite likely that they do have something, although you have not concluded with certainty. So we only differ in our place on the spectrum of belief and non-belief. I guess your point is that if you think Rossi and DGT have nothing, you shouldn’t say so because it isn’t certain? That’s just silly. Despite that fact that it is still possible that they do have something, I am going with the far, far more likely outcome that they don’t. And that is not concluding with certainty; that is making up my mind based on what I know. So stop waving the requirement for absolute proof in everyone’s face. That is not even required in a court of law.

          • Ransompw

            October 10, 2013 at 3:39 pm

            Newman:

            You can conclude at any time. I have no problem with concluding. It is your conclusion that is faulty.

            To summarize, I have no problem concluding at this time that Rossi most likely doesn’t have a revolutionary new energy technology and that it is possible although not close to certain that he is conducting a fraud. That is a wise and thoughtful conclusion based on the information we currently have available. It also means that continuing to watch this drama may be worthwhile since it is possible although not likely that Rossi does have a basic breakthrough.

            The conclusion of Al and the rest of you that Rossi is almost with absolute certainty a fraud is so dumb as to call into question your ability to think rationally.

          • popeye

            October 10, 2013 at 4:05 pm

            To the extent that science is advanced by rational thought, the most rational thinkers (the best scientists) have dismissed Rossi and the rest of cold fusion, whereas lawyers and fine artists and teachers think like you, and give Rossi more than a snowball’s chance. Even some scientists who advocate cold fusion research (Josephson, McKubre) tend to have whacky sympathies with Papp or homeopathy.

          • JNewman

            October 10, 2013 at 4:09 pm

            Concluding with near certainty that Rossi is a fraud is irrational?

            1. His alleged devices make no physical sense, particularly the so-called hot cat. The notion that an external heat source must be continuously applied to a device that produces copious amounts of excess heat is beyond ludicrous.

            2. He has issued an almost endless series of lies about his activities, partnerships and accomplishments for more than two years. There is no follow-up, no internal consistency to any of these things and they conveniently vanish from the conversation when their lack of validity becomes too apparent.

            3. He endlessly touts customer, partner and collaborator relationships with unnamed and secret parties, none of which has ever be validated apart from those with nebulous or suspicious entities. To believe even half of Rossi’s claims is to believe in a level of secrecy that no government intelligence agency has ever achieved.

            4. He denies any money-raising activities to accomplish his “research” while multiple outside parties carry on fund raising on his behalf.

            The list can go on. Pretty much anything factual that can be said about Rossi points to fraud. Does it prove fraud? No. It is possible that Rossi is clinically insane but actually believes the swill he spews. But I don’t admit to the possibility that he is just idiosyncratic with how he conducts business, but is nonetheless legit. That, as you put it, is so dumb as to call into question one’s ability to think rationally.

            No, I think fraud is the overwhelmingly most likely explanation for Rossi. No matter how great it would be if he really had something, that wonderful outcome is no reason to think that he does.

            Continuing to watch this drama is not worthwhile because Rossi might actually turn out to have something. That is too low a probability to warrant the effort. No, watching it is worthwhile because it is a riveting example of how incapable so many people are of critical thinking when either their egos or their fondest wishes are at stake. It is better than any reality TV show.

          • R Hopeful

            October 10, 2013 at 4:41 pm

            And leaving aside Rossi and DGT -both of them hardly believable at this point-, I think the evidence is solid that LENR is a new type of energy generation process. The question is if it will scale up.

            My bet is that it will, because the potential is enormous and humans have a tendency to make useful technology work.

            For me, that is a good reason to follow the show.

          • JNewman

            October 10, 2013 at 4:56 pm

            R Hopeful, I am less sanguine about the prospects for LENR, but that is beside the point. If by “following the show”, you mean watching the antics of Rossi and DGT, then I don’t really buy the explanation. It would be like following some patent medicine quack because you are interested in cancer research. Frankly, if more legitimate LENR researchers would reject Rossi and DGT out of hand, I would have more hope for their legitimacy. Cold fusion was already a largely discredited field before Rossi and DGT came on the scene and they have only degraded it further. Perhaps when these scams finally die out (which unfortunately might take years), then LENR can be sorted out one way or another.

          • Al Potenza

            October 10, 2013 at 5:53 pm

            Exactly what JNewman said in *both* above posts. Everything about Rossi, Defkalion, Nanospire and even Brillouin screams scam.

            Miley makes high power claims he can’t show or support. I doubt he scams but he’s beyond his prime.

            Storms doesn’t really make claims for his own experiments nowadays– at least not high power claims that I know of. He seems to believe Rossi and Defkalion — a major and ridiculous error. He seems like a bright man. I don’t know what’s wrong with him. Overoptimism and age maybe.

            The rest (Swartz, Hagelstein,Abundo, MFPM, Celani, etc. etc.) have claims to small amounts of power– that could *always* be measurement error and probably is.

            That pretty well sums up “state of the art” in LENR today which is why mainline scientists pay no attention.

        • R Hopeful Reply

          October 10, 2013 at 5:57 pm

          JNewman,

          You should not expect scientists’ opinion to be much different from that of the population at large, because they have the same information we do about DGT and Rossi’s activities. So the majority does not care and does not express their opinion.

          For “the show” I meant the cold fusion/LENR developments in general. As it happens, most sources that follow LENR also cover DGT and Rossi, so it is all the same show. As you say, this confusion does not help the credibility of LENR.

          I don’t think the noise hinders the development though. The real problem for LENR is the lack of decisive repeatable results.

          • JNewman

            October 10, 2013 at 7:07 pm

            R Hopeful,

            Fair enough. If you want to hear about LENR, you pretty much have to go to sites that are not exactly rigorous news sources. So, making use of the old metaphor, if there are any ponies in this barn, they are hard to find in that big pile of ****.

            As for the noise hindering development, you are pretty much right. It is the lack of decisive repeatable results that is the real problem. However, I can’t imagine that legitimate researchers have an easier time trying to get funded when they are automatically lumped in with con men and charlatans.

  23. Ransompw Reply

    October 10, 2013 at 4:32 pm

    Popeye:

    It is comical you think scientists are more rational thinkers than lawyers. The stereotype of the nerd scientist without the slightest ability to appreciate reality didn’t happen by accident.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      October 10, 2013 at 5:51 pm

      *Good* lawyers rely upon the best independent expert evidence they can get — they know they don’t have enough training and experience with physical sciences to come to their own opinion about complex experiments which have not been properly replicated by the main line science community.

      The exception would be a lawyer with previous extensive training and experience in physics engineering. I suppose there could be such people. They aren’t you, though, Ransom.

      • Ransompw Reply

        October 10, 2013 at 6:52 pm

        Al:

        I can find experts to say anything. What it has proven to me over the years is that know it all’s will say anything for money and as Mark Twain often said an expert is “an ordinary fellow from another town” or Will Rogers who said an expert is “A man fifty miles from home with a briefcase”.

      • Shane D. Reply

        October 10, 2013 at 7:03 pm

        That lawyer would be David Slone, PHD High Particle Physics, lawyer for a leading US Patent firm, whom now is invested in, and working with Brillouin Energy Corp.

        Let me guess though… you still think Brillouin is a scam too?

        • JNewman Reply

          October 10, 2013 at 7:16 pm

          You know, Shane, there are MDs – real live doctors – who have publicly stated that smoking is harmless. Let me guess though… you still think cigarettes cause cancer?

        • R Hopeful Reply

          October 10, 2013 at 10:22 pm

          Think that Dr. Yeong Kim, who has similar credentials, is supporting DGT, and the last demonstration proved their technology does not work.

          Brillouin having a credible supporter is not a guarantee.

          • JNewman

            October 10, 2013 at 10:37 pm

            Every huckster out there touting unproven (and usually nonexistent) technology has testimonials from people with doctorates, fancy titles, and impressive affiliations. I mean, if you can’t actually demonstrate that you have what you claim, you can at least point to your “expert” to make your case. C’mon Shane, are you really that naive?

        • Shane D. Reply

          October 11, 2013 at 2:27 am

          JN,

          Good point about the doctors… which you know strikes home.

          Yes, docs don’t have all the answers, and have often throughout medical history given poor advise based largely on conventional wisdom and ignorance, with little support, if any, in the way of solid research.

          Believe me they know that. But then again they also know that life expectancy has increased largely because of their efforts, and that overall they have done incredibly good for humankind.

          Maybe, perhaps, there is a lesson to learn here for those in the basic sciences… They do good on the whole, but make some real boners too… like LENR maybe? But on the whole they have done real good for society?

          To be honest, I think you geek guys are here not for the reason you state -to observe us believers and our follies, but because you really think you may have it wrong.

          By the way; hucksters, testimonials, afillialations as you say hardly do justice to the third party tests carried out a number of times by cold fusion advocates… yes, even including Rossi/DGT.

          • JNewman

            October 11, 2013 at 3:16 am

            The point about the doctors is that doctors can be bought, bamboozled or otherwise sent astray as much as anyone else. And the same goes for PhDs and attorneys.

            Anyway, if you actually still believe that there have been third-party tests of Rossi or DGT’s devices, then we don’t really have a basis for discussion. Whatever else you might believe about those dog-and-pony shows, they were most certainly not third-party tests. But it is the reality distortion field through which you view all if this that keeps you going and nothing I or anyone else can say is going to change that. I hope at least that these beliefs give you some sort of pleasure.

          • Shane D.

            October 11, 2013 at 3:48 am

            JN,

            By your first paragraph it appears you and I agree on much.

            Second paragraph…. Well, I’ll stick to my assertions about those third party tests, and you yours, but I still think we shall have much to discuss as this goes on.

            Just the tip of the iceberg if you ask me. Literally, until the scam breaks, or more likely you skeptics are forced to eat you pessimism, we will have almost weekly revelations to argue.

            You wouldn’t want to slam shut the door now… Would you? The fun is just starting.

          • JNewman

            October 11, 2013 at 4:11 am

            Weekly revelations? How about ANY revelations? There have been none so far in this whole silly affair other than whatever claims are made by the perpetrators, they are not likely to ever come to fruition. Perhaps you are caught up in the ludicrous myth that there has been steady progress in LENR, which is not remotely suggested by any metric one could possibly think of. But, like I said… Reality distortion field.

        • popeye Reply

          October 11, 2013 at 6:04 pm

          Shane:

          That lawyer would be David Slone, PHD High Particle Physics, lawyer for a leading US Patent firm, whom now is invested in, and working with Brillouin Energy Corp.
          Let me guess though… you still think Brillouin is a scam too?

          To be “invested in and working with” only means he thinks there is potential to make money. Given the success of a dozen cold fusion companies (including Brillouin) at attracting investment, this is not an unreasonable position. He doesn’t have to believe it will succeed at making a product based on cold fusion. And he can offer legal services and benefit from investment without himself committing fraud, even if he is sure cold fusion is bogus.
          -
          Brillouin’s web page screams scam from every pixel, and especially from their “Quantum Reaction Hypothesis” published there. One only has to read the first few paragraphs to know this is BS. He writes in paragraph 4: “According to an eminent physicist in the field, the energy required to overcome the coulomb repulsion is not even possible to achieve in a Pd lattice although it is possible to localize several MeV.”
          -
          First of all, who writes “an eminent physicist” without naming them or giving a reference, unless there is no such eminent physicist. The fusion cross-section for D-D fusion peaks at about 100 keV. The several MeV he needs for his various electron captures is far higher than what is needed for fusion. So, his premise is wrong from the start. Much like the WL theory.
          -
          The rest of it is just a confused arrangement of technobabble intended only to look like a theory to potential investors. If it were a legitimate theory, what is stopping him from submitting it to a journal to really legitimize it?
          -
          You can tell it has no real intended audience — that is, no one is expected to read and follow it — by the fact that it repeats basic text-book stuff (mostly lifted from Wikipedia) as filler for most of the document. Anyone in a position to understand the mechanics of such a quantum mechanical theory does not need to have Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle written out, or have the Laplace operator defined.
          -
          The sections on phonons, the Brillouin zone, the Hamiltonian, the uncertainty principle, and others are just straight excerpts from Wikipedia (the differences are probably due to recent changes in W), and should be common knowledge to anyone expected to apply the ideas in this context. Plus he copies a whole page from nuclear data sheet. Then he tries to connect them in some way with word salad to make it all look legit. Sentences like “The atoms in direct contact with the first Brillouin zone…” make no sense. How does an atom contact a zone in reciprocal space? I don’t think he knows what the name of his company means.
          -
          And the notion of building up H-4 (which has a lifetime of zeptoseconds, and decays by neutron emission) to beta decay to He-4 is totally beyond any reasonable credibility.
          -
          The fact that he repeatedly uses “nuclei” as a singular noun also indicates that he is not really conversant in the field, and that he has had no nuclear physicist read over the document for suggestions. And that brings up the question of Slone. If his 40-year old PhD were any good, why would he stand for the kind of nonsense published on the web site.

          • Dale G. Basgall

            October 11, 2013 at 7:25 pm

            popeye: In respect David N. Slone would not get involved in anything he did not truly feel had merit. He is getting old and not the type of person that would waste his time on an invention or process unless he believed it was legit. He has a great reputation in the patenting field so after I heard that he was involved in any way I feel strongly that “Brillouin’s” product is legit however their hypotheses doesn’t have to be right for the product to work as they claim. I have not read any of their claims yet however there is some magic required in anyone’s guess as to what actually is the true driving force of the LENR.

            What seems to me as coincidence is that
            Beryllium is close to the name of their company. That was a hint that possibly their “fusion magic” of Pd-D somehow results in a Be8 of which then fission takes it to the 2 He4 and thermal energy. This is where the energy required to make this happen is left non conventional and a glitch because it is a well understood process.

            Point being it could be possible the workings theory may be incorrect however it could be possible to work within the nuclease so the coulomb force is not applicable as well as baryon conservation is held. This would require a neutrino capture only and a little magic also finding the heavy quark as fact, fusion could happen and it seems easier to explain.

            Anyway it does seem however any way you explain it out takes magic, high energy input, and unfortunately high calculated emission output. Something is not right with the low emissions claim, I agree when the pot remains cold there are emissions proportional to the events and as more energy develops so do the emissions.

          • JNewman

            October 11, 2013 at 9:53 pm

            Dale, can I have thousand island on that?

    • CuriousChris Reply

      October 10, 2013 at 11:35 pm

      Why would you confuse your view of what a ‘nerd’ is in popular culture with a rational critical thinking person.

      That singular point underlines inability to think rationally.

      Nerds don’t understand girls or football. Neither of them class as reality.

      Lawyers on the other hand are renowned for their ability to twist the irrational and try to make it sound rational and then ridicule the rational as a figment of imagination.

      Lawyers rank alongside used car salesmen and politicians when it comes to truthfulness. So if we are going to use your irrational argument of popular culture to decide rationality then I am afraid lawyers come out along side snakes, slugs and other belly crawlers.

      That perception didn’t come to be by accident did it.

      • Ransompw Reply

        October 11, 2013 at 5:37 am

        Curious the Rossi drama is only partially about science. In fact the whole fraud issue has almost nothing to do with science and much more to do with human nature, girls and football. And if lawyers are as you suggest, who better to appreciate fraud. The prima facia case for fraud is taught in law school, I doubt they teach it in physics class.

        • popeye Reply

          October 11, 2013 at 6:00 pm

          Ransom:

          It is comical you think scientists are more rational thinkers than lawyers. The stereotype of the nerd scientist without the slightest ability to appreciate reality didn’t happen by accident.

          1. Nerds have the ability to appreciate reality. They have difficulty coping with complex social interaction.
          -
          2. The nerd stereotype does not contradict the notion that scientists are more rational than lawyers. Coping with social interactions involves skills other than rational thought.
          -
          3. In spite of the stereotype of scientists as nerds, most of the best scientists (to whom I referred) are not nerds. And they are the ones most responsible for advancing science, a far more rational discipline than the law. After all, the stereotype expressed by “The law is an ass.” didn’t happen by accident. And Will Rogers’ view that “The minute you read something you can’t understand, you can almost be sure it was drawn up by a lawyer” doesn’t speak to their rational ability.
          -
          4. Lawyers are advocates, enlisted to win arguments and sway a jury, even if it involves persuading them of something contrary to the truth. This requires skills quite different from rational thought. The joke that when a lawyer is thrown into a pool of alligators, he eats 2 before you can get him out, was not invented by accident. Scientists seek the truth, a far more rational pursuit.
          -
          And as if to demonstrate the lawyer’s irrational thinking, Ransom argues in response to Curious

          Curious the Rossi drama is only partially about science. In fact the whole fraud issue has almost nothing to do with science and much more to do with human nature, girls and football. And if lawyers are as you suggest, who better to appreciate fraud.

          Here, you do not defend your claim, but contradict it. You said that disagreeing with you about Rossi was irrational, but now you’re arguing that your position on Rossi does not involve rational thought, but it has more to human nature, girls, and football.
          -
          You can argue that lawyers are in a better position to evaluate the Rossi case, because they have street smarts or are scam-savvy or have the sorts of skills Curious mentioned that are not part of rational thought. But then you can’t say that people who disagree are irrational.
          -
          But nothing is quite as irrational as suggesting that the fraud issue has almost nothing to do with science. This would be slightly less irrational if Rossi were claiming a better solar panel or an improved fuel cell or something. But for claims of perpetual motion, anti-gravity or cold fusion, the issue begins and ends with science. Scientists, and nuclear physicists in particular, are in a position to understand the degree of implausibility of the claims, and given that, the absence of unequivocal evidence, which you admit, is enough for rational scientists to dismiss the claims as almost certainly bogus. And these scientists are right in the middle of the bell curve, while true believers and those who give it a fighting chance are far on the fringe of it.
          -
          In fact, I think your position on Rossi is *because* you find cold fusion to be a plausible phenomenon, even though you’re not qualified to make such a judgment, and you so want it to be true, that your judgement is too clouded to see the obvious non-scientific signs of fraud as enumerated frequently by JN and Al. In short, you are being irrational. My guess is Clarence Darrow would scoff at Rossi.

      • Ransompw Reply

        October 11, 2013 at 5:58 am

        Curious: By the way:

        You better not admit in mixed company that girls aren’t real. I can’t imagine how you function today with that view of reality.

        • PersonFromPorlock Reply

          October 14, 2013 at 12:18 am

          Oh, I dunno. Most of the girls I dated back in the day were imaginary… or at least, the dates were!

  24. Ransompw Reply

    October 10, 2013 at 6:22 pm

    Newman:

    You constantly claim to be watching this drama to observe people who can’t critically think. You do it principally to insult those who fail to agree with you. It does however demonstrate your true opinion which is extreme and uncompromising.

    Everytime you make the comment you prove you are one of those people incapable of critical thinking. You just happen to be on the other end of the bell shaped curve.

    As to Rossi and your 4 points above,

    1) his device is no different than all Cold Fusion devices that have always needed constant input energy to function. I don’t think that differentiates Rossi’s Ecat or Hot Cat.

    2) I disagree, for the most part Rossi has issued an endless stream of exaggerations, not really lies and future predictions (which can’t be lies) and one of the reasons I came back to post is the noticable difference recently. Maybe he has changed tactics or maybe he is working with others who are muzzling him.

    3) I don’t think Rossi and his antics are (perceived) important enough for those who could rat him out (either way) to rat him out. And by the way, Gary Wright who clearly had an obsession with doing so (although I doubt he had the resources) failed to accomplish anything substantial.

    4) No one he has gotten money from (and what we know of it, it is literally peanuts) have complained which is no proof either way.

    I also don’t think letting 7 scientists test his device regardless of the constraints is a sign that points to fraud, just the opposite. And if he is giving them another crack at it after the criticism they took, it is even less sign of fraud.

    I don’t think building his elaborate and dumb looking 1Mg plant is sign of fraud.

    I don’t think the many people involved with him and who haven’t suggested fraud is a sign of fraud.

    I think you cherry pick your evidence and then use it to conclude in the extreme.

    And what is funny is the only real diffence in our opinions is a matter of degree. Typically when I see someone as sure of something as you and Al and Popeye (especially given the circumstantial evidence that exists here), I see irrational bias as the likely cause. So I think you need to look in the mirror if you want to observe one of those people who can think critically.

    • CuriousChris Reply

      October 10, 2013 at 11:40 pm

      “You constantly claim to be watching this drama to observe people who can’t critically think. You do it principally to insult those who fail to agree with you. It does however demonstrate your true opinion which is extreme and uncompromising.”

      Actually I would say he disagrees with those that don’t show critical thinking.

      The thing about someone who can’t think critically is they lack errr critical thinking. Which is to say they are unable to perceive the baloney that comes from their mouth as being anything other than reality.

      For example the person who recognises Rossi is a consistent liar but then in a total lapse of judgement thinks he might still be on to something.

      That is a complete and utter breakdown in critical thinking.

      • Ransompw Reply

        October 11, 2013 at 5:26 am

        Rossi isn’t a consistent liar, he is very inconsistent. But when you see and appreciate only what you want to appreciate it is very difficult to be objective.

        Critical thinking requires an open mind, not a closed mind.

        • CuriousChris Reply

          October 13, 2013 at 11:37 pm

          I agree Rossi’s lies lack consistency.

          And you are consistent in believing your ducking and weaving leaves others agape in your brilliance. Actually you just look like a fool.

          And you are consistent about that. unlike Rossi’s consistent inconsistent lies.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      October 11, 2013 at 5:05 pm

      You know, I started to reply to all the absolute nonsense in that post… and then I decided it is not worth the trouble. I would guess that not even if Rossi is successfully sued or jailed (and the same with Defkalion), will you believe that there is essentially no chance at all that he ever gave a legitimate demo much less ever had anything at all that works. When it comes to Rossi and Defkalion, you’re a lost cause, Ransom.

      • JNewman Reply

        October 11, 2013 at 5:42 pm

        Rossi had his best shot to win hearts and minds back in 2011. That’s when he snared Ransom, GW and the rest of the crew we still see paying tribute to the master. I think he got them for life. I wonder if there are people who were skeptics at first but were somehow later convinced by Rossi’s increasingly preposterous antics since the early days. If so, we don’t seem to hear from them here. Perhaps they hang out at e-cat world which most assuredly is a different world.

      • Ransompw Reply

        October 11, 2013 at 6:16 pm

        The only thing that has happened with Rossi in the last 12 months is that he was reasonably truthful about tests being performed on the Hot Cat. For the most part he has shut up completely since May and just keeps repeating that R & D is in course and results bad or good will be reported.

        Only you and your posse could fashion that into something supporting your extreme view (and it is extreme). I was leaning your way until 7 scientists came forward and supported Rossi’s version of what was happening. I am now willing to wait and see if he is being truthful again and more tests by the 7 are under way and he is working with a company smart enough to muzzle him. (That would give me reason to be hopeful that some definitive resolution to this could be forthcoming Yeah or Neah)

        And before you criticize the 7 or any company that would (assuming true) work with Rossi, your insulting opinion of them is exactly how I view you. Incompetent.

        • JNewman Reply

          October 11, 2013 at 6:23 pm

          Your assessment of my competence is certainly valuable. Much like your assessment of the competence of the Rossi 7, which is based on exactly nothing as far as I can tell. I suppose what distinguishes them is that you like what they have to say. That makes them real experts in your eyes. Really Ransom. Do you ever listen to yourself?

          • Ransompw

            October 11, 2013 at 6:57 pm

            That was a reply to Al’s post. You are just one of the posse.

            I think the 7 are scientists and as with all human beings can and do perform less than perfectly. I also think given more opportunities we tend to do a better job and if Rossi is giving them another opportunity, I would expect them to improve the methodology.

            The only people I consider incompetent are those arrogant enough to call others incompetent. You then achieve my mantle of honor by your own actions not mine.

            But incompetent or not, my point has nothing to do with how well the 7 performed thier tests but the fact that Rossi was reasonably accurate about the fact that they were performing tests.

            So in the last 12 months I think he has been more or less truthful. Which is why I even bothered to come back to this site and post, wondering whether Rossi’s accuracy over the last 12 months would gain him even a toehold of doubt with the self professed brilliant, wise and infallible people in Al’s posse.

          • JNewman

            October 11, 2013 at 7:11 pm

            Gosh, I always wanted to be part of a posse ever since watching the Lone Ranger as a kid.

            Anyway, your train of thought is now apparent. Rossi announces that there would be “indipendint” third-party tests of the ecat. Eventually, we get the Rossi-designed, Rossi-restricted, ambiguous and sloppy Levi test performed by a group of unknown scientists with undermined expertise and experience. Your conclusion from this is that Rossi has somewhat redeemed himself in this way because, in some vague sense, he told the truth.

            Alright, if that’s all it takes to rekindle your interest, more power to you.

          • Ransompw

            October 11, 2013 at 7:33 pm

            Newman:

            Characterize the tests in whatever light you need to meet your prior assumptions. Make light of the events all you want, it just shows your lack of objectiveness.

            But whatever, I think your response pretty much says it all. What is funny is you really don’t even percieve how biased and close minded you are.

          • JNewman

            October 11, 2013 at 7:41 pm

            Symmetry is fascinating. From my perspective, you seeing the Levi test in such a positive light shows your lack of objectivity.

            In any case, your refutation to any critical comments or arguments against your positions is to attack the individual making those statements. I question the credentials and expertise of the Rossi 7 and you attack me rather than explaining why these guys deserve any respect. Basically, your way of defending your largely indefensible views to to attack whoever questions them. Pretty boring, actually. You might as well phone in your responses: “You are ignorant”. “You are biased”. “You are an idiot”. Blah, blah, blah.

            I do have to wonder: how well does that work for you in the courtroom? Just curious…

          • Ransompw

            October 11, 2013 at 9:48 pm

            Newman:

            Rossi was accurate last year about tests happening.

            Unless there was a hidden wire or unidentified energy applied (and unidentified is significant) the results confirmed Rossi’s Hot Cat.

            To completely ignore the above as a reason to continue to observe Rossi and wonder if he is being truthful about follow on tests by the 7 and a Corporate Partner is illogical to me. Why assume with no evidence that the testers were frauded or partners in fraud?

            Don’t you think that is a little closed minded on your part.

          • JNewman

            October 12, 2013 at 5:49 am

            Actually, my opinion of the hot cat is that it is an ordinary tube furnace that has nothing to do with LENR at all. But since nobody but Rossi knows what is in the box, that is just conjecture. But Rossi isn’t trying to prove anything to skeptics. He is just keeping the faithful on board and if you are any example, he is succeeding.

          • GreenWin

            October 14, 2013 at 1:04 am

            JN’s valued opinion is based upon his admittance to pretense of a “scientific career” replete with pretend degrees. i.e JN is an uncredentialed, non-expert blogger claiming to be a “scientist.” What would make such a science wannabe lurk about these blogs on LENR – if not for his shillery for nukes, oil or… (for shame) hot fusion???

          • JNewman

            October 14, 2013 at 2:48 am

            My valued opinion is based upon making sense, something you have never come close to achieving.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          October 11, 2013 at 7:49 pm

          “I was leaning your way until 7 scientists came forward and supported Rossi’s version of what was happening.”
          -
          Actually, they don’t. They simply said they saw something which *appears to be* extra energy from an unknown source.

          Except that most skeptical people know where the energy came from. It came from bad measurement methods and an uncontrolled and improperly measured mains supply provided by Rossi for measurement with Levi’s instruments.

          “I also think given more opportunities we tend to do a better job and if Rossi is giving them another opportunity, I would expect them to improve the methodology. “

          The only thing that would improve the methodology would be to provide their own mains supply. They are unlikely to do that.

          Choosing a longer test is beyond idiotic. If the silly thing ran a few months, it will run indefinitely. If it’s badly tested, who cares how long the bad test continues?

          Actually, they should not be testing the so-called hot cat at all. They should insist on testing Levi’s original February 2011 configuration — pure liquid calorimetry, single phase flow, easy measurements– except unlike Levi, they do it and document it properly. Don’t worry. Won’t happen.

          • Ransompw

            October 11, 2013 at 9:57 pm

            Al:

            They supported Rossi’s blog posts about tests, timing of tests etc. You are not reading what I wrote.

            And you don’t KNOW where the energy came from, you theorize where it came from.

            And why are they unlikely to supply the energy? Because it wouldn’t fit your theory?

            So tests won’t happen and the methodology won’t improve. Now that’s a prediction, thank you. You might be right.

          • Al Potenza

            October 12, 2013 at 12:09 am

            “They supported Rossi’s blog posts about tests, timing of tests etc. You are not reading what I wrote.”
            -
            Yes I did. Yes they did support *some* of Rossi’s projections about test schedules and results. However, once again, the tests were not independent, took place in Rossi’s lab with his power source and his number one stooge’s measurement methods and instruments.

            And it was the wrong test to demonstrate that Rossi’s supposed technology is real. As I keep pointing out, simply repeating what Levi claimed he did almost three years ago would be definitive if it worked again when done properly. Of course, Levi didn’t do it OR document it properly and when confronted about that by Krivit, he basically said the dog ate his homework.

            And Levi refused to reply to requests to repeat the test, even when made by no less than Brian Josephson himself. I have the emails to prove that Josephson, at my urging, asked Levi to do that and that he received no reply to his email. He finally gave up on Levi and asked *me* (LOL) to keep after him to redo the simple, fluid calorimetry, single phase, water cooled ecat test.

            Anyone doubting this needs only to contact Josephson through his youtube channel. He responds within a reasonable time period.

            Any responsible person who really believed the ecat worked and who had Rossi’s ear would have demanded that this test be done properly and again with adequate witnesses. And if Rossi refused, that responsible person would call Rossi out in public on it. Of course Levi is clearly not a responsible person.l

            If anyone at all is interested in proving that the ecat principle works, then that experiment and only that experiment (or an equally simple one and incontrovertible) would be the one to do.

            Simply not being aware that this is the case is prima facia evidence for incompetence of the seven scientists.

          • Ransompw

            October 12, 2013 at 1:38 am

            The tests were independent. They were not conducted by Rossi. It is your definition of independent that is full of it. Now could they have made sure people like you couldn’t criticize the tests, well maybe. You’d do your best to criticize any effort, but everyone knows it also.

          • Al Potenza

            October 12, 2013 at 2:10 am

            @Ransom

            So your only criterion for independence is that Rossi did not conduct the test? OK with you if his wife did? Because Levi is about as “indipendent” of Rossi as his wife is.

          • Ransompw

            October 12, 2013 at 6:06 am

            Levi was one of 7 and isn’t married to Rossi.

          • Al Potenza

            October 13, 2013 at 9:24 pm

            “Levi was one of 7 and isn’t married to Rossi.”
            -
            Don’t tempt me!

  25. Ransompw Reply

    October 10, 2013 at 6:45 pm

    Newman:

    I meant to say Can’t think critically, not can. Sorry if you thought I was giving you a compliment, I wasn’t.

    • JNewman Reply

      October 10, 2013 at 7:14 pm

      No worries, Ransom. I know you don’t give compliments.

      As for your analysis, of course I disagree with every one of your points, but it has all been beaten into the dirt repeatedly here. Every single one of your alleged refutations are workarounds and technicalities that don’t actually speak to the point being made. But since finding loopholes is your line of work, they suffice for you.

      You always talk about the extremes of the infamous bell curve with the implication that you alone are the impartial guy in the middle. No doubt, there are probably some people here who believe that.

    • GreenWin Reply

      October 14, 2013 at 12:27 am

      Nor is one (compliment) deserved. JN represents the geriatric approach to technology, which is: “My cult knows more than you.” This is the reason why the $4.5B NIF has been caught in more lies and nuke fission in the West is an investment apocalypse. Once the predatory green movement opposes you… you’re in deep sheit:

      http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/

      But wait, Al Pretenza is screeching: what does this have to do with LENR?? World to Al: If you cannot grok how the failure of LENR’s prime opponent (nukesters) affects the politics of LENR – return to divinity school for a clue.

      • JNewman Reply

        October 14, 2013 at 2:51 am

        The politics of LENR. Grist for some gripping novels. Almost as important as the politics of BigFoot. Actually, undoubtedly more people care about BigFoot than LENR. But that is just in the real world, which obviously is not really your concern, GW.

  26. Al Potenza Reply

    October 11, 2013 at 6:30 pm

    If you want some laughs, tune in to the video stream from the GlobalBem conference. Such dignitaries as Tom Valone, the Nanospire whackoes … it’s truly hilarious … when the streams and Skype connections work… which with these tech geniuses is almost never. Mostly, they sit around scratching their… you know… waiting for the systems to work. Very funny in a sad sort of way.

    http://new.livestream.com/accounts/5737056/events/2462399

    http://globalbem.com/stream/

    • JNewman Reply

      October 11, 2013 at 7:58 pm

      Personally, I find such a display of abject stupidity depressing. But if the “weekly revelations” in the LENR biz are just not enough excitement for the true believer crowd, the GlobalBem is a gateway to a much wider world of woo. Enlightenment awaits!

    • Shane D. Reply

      October 12, 2013 at 2:11 am

      Sure, there are some “whackoes” in there, but I would hardly lump Nanospire in with them. Mark LeClair is quite accomplished.

      In reading his experience, it appears to be a very common one within the cold fusion community: he saw something he couldn’t explain by regular physics and has since pursued it. His was a little different as it involved cavitation with clear nucleosynthesis products and radiation sickness, but nonetheless an LENR phenomenon.

      Just another really sharp guy, with solid creds, that witnessed something intriguing, then set out to understand why… only to be rewarded for his scientific curiosity with ad hominem attacks upon his integrity by his fellow scientists.

      And also, like the others, still without a dime profit for his efforts. Gosh, these guys couldn’t have picked a less lucrative scam to run.

      • Al Potenza Reply

        October 13, 2013 at 12:52 am

        NO! These guys are totally whackdoodle. Their claims of injury from radiation from their tests is laughable. Here is an exchange I had with the bozo:

        http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-10/andrea-rossis-black-box?page=4%2C3

        Scroll down for my reply.

        LeClair’s principal consultant and one of only three people on his web page’s corporate biographies, is Ed Pope. He had some dealings with the Russians and wrote a book. The book has a variety of reviews on Amazon but I especially liked this one:

        “I read books cover-to-cover, good or bad. Good books because I can’t stop, bad books because of my morbid fascination that such junk gets published. That being said, I cannot finish this book.

        If Ed Pope was not spying, the Russians should have locked him up for profound manifestation of delusions of grandeur. This guy has an extraordinary ego … . When I get the stomach to finish this book, I want to go back and count the number of times Ed declares himself “right” when everyone else was wrong.

        Did our military really approve 126 top-secret clearances for this guy? If so, this issue raises serious questions about our national security. I suspect the navy was as sick of Ed as you will be (if you buy this book), and to pacify his passion for intrigue, declared any trivial tidbit of knowledge Ed possessed as “top secret.”

        I’ll bet most of Ed’s ‘security clearances’ were bestowed in this manner: “Oh, and by the way Ed, divulge to no one the location of your parking spot or the number of pens in your pocket protector … that’s top secret information.” Further, I’ll bet as soon as Ed obtained these ‘clearances’ he showed his coworkers where his car was located, and emptied the contents of his geek-badge, just so he could admonish them to take the information to their graves. “

        Nanospire’s pronouncements and writings are totally non credible. LeClair’s answer to my post on Popular Science is so tangential and so filled with errors, it borders on the psychotic. And notice that this was almost exactly a year ago that he wrote it. And what have they produced, tested, demonstrated or otherwise done and showed since? Absolutely nothing.

        As for lucrative scams, I have no idea whether Nanospire is one or not. But the way investor scams and distributor scams work, it could be and you have absolutely no way to know it. Check out Steorn for a totally classic example of this sort of scam.

        • Shane D. Reply

          October 13, 2013 at 1:39 am

          You go and make me read all that for nothing!

          In that Popular Science piece, you went after Rossi and sucked up to Krivits as usual. Towards the end LeCalir takes after you for your ways. You respond in MY fashion with a full broad-side.

          Then, for good measure you lob a smoke bomb as you cherry pick 3 negative reviews of Ed Popes (Nanopsire BOD) book on Amazon and post them also. Like that really matters?

          That said, Mark LeClair is not the most politically sensitive of personalities. He is quite the brute… Much like you in fact. “Bull in the China Store” comes to mind.

          I read some stuff he posted on Sterlings site, with some input from his partner Sergio, and it is very apparent they both lack even the most basic of political, PR, skills.

          Yet while LeClair lacks communication skills, he, unlike you, is accomplished, and is a known entity.

          Nothing you said, or had me read, has changed my mind about LeClair. But in the unintended consequences category, it has reinforced my opinion of you and your ways.

          Same old Al/MY.

    • Frank Reply

      October 13, 2013 at 4:24 pm

      “whackoes”

      As a non-native English speaker I sometimes have to struggle with the exact meaning of some (slang?) words like “whacko” – or is it “wacko”?
      Well, I watched now Sterling’s presentation at GlobalBEM (only the beginning – can’t stand that for more than a couple of minutes) and I guess now I understand exactly …
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_izw6bseCY

  27. Jordi Heguilor Reply

    October 11, 2013 at 8:32 pm

    Here’s a Gedankenexperiment for the Believers here:

    If the Ecat, instead of being the solution to the Earth’s energy problems and the harbinger of a new era of unparalleled prosperity

    were

    an incredible evil weapon of mass destruction, developed by the North Korean Government to enslave the world

    would you, based on the same available evidence, still believe in its existence?

    • JNewman Reply

      October 11, 2013 at 8:56 pm

      I don’t think believers do much gedanken, if you know what I mean.

      • GreenWin Reply

        October 13, 2013 at 11:27 pm

        If as the expression posits “thoughts are free” it takes a marked paranoid to think North Korea can do little more than blow themselves up:

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17698438

        Some people just don’t have faith in the terrestrial capabilities of counter intelligence. :( A better example of evil would be China’s minority rule CCP.

        • Jordi Heguilor Reply

          October 14, 2013 at 3:34 am

          GW, I used North Korea like I could have used Guyana. The point of the Gedankenexperiment is to show (it is to be hoped, to the Believers, who need it) that their belief in the existence of LENR is influenced because LENR is good and necessary.

          Let me quote the very first lines of “LENR 101″ at E-cat World, by Nobel Prize winner Gordon Doherty:

          “We still rely on fossil fuels and Uranium fission for much of our energy needs – all expensive, dirty, even dangerous.”

          Nothing to do with LENR, but since all the other stuff is nasty, all the crap he spouts about LENR henceforth must be true.

        • popeye Reply

          October 14, 2013 at 5:53 am

          If as the expression posits “thoughts are free” it takes a marked paranoid to think North Korea can do little more than blow themselves up

          Wow. Did you feel the breeze as that point whizzed by you. I used to think there was some intelligence behind your bought-and-paid-for pro-LENR facade, but with this response, the one on the NBA and the DH, and some other recent responses, particularly about the SPAWAR patent, I am now quite certain you are what you seem: a dullard.

  28. Shane D. Reply

    October 12, 2013 at 3:22 pm

    Dr. Robert Duncan is leaving the UOM and going over to Texas Tech University. The article mentions his role in heading up SKINR, but mentions nothing of his interest in LENR:

    http://today.ttu.edu/2013/10/texas-tech-names-new-vice-president-for-research-2/

    • Deleo77 Reply

      October 12, 2013 at 5:20 pm

      It was interesting in McKubre’s interview where he said that Duncan was initially a pretty strong and vocal skeptic with LENR. But McKubre said that Duncan looked at the data and concluded that there was an undeniable heat effect taking place in the experiments. But he said that Duncan still refers to it as an anomalous heat effect, and nothing more, because Duncan believes that what is causing the heat effect is just not understood yet, so we can’t label it yet.

      Perhaps Duncan has gone further to believe fully in LENR, but I haven’t seen that. The goal of Kimmel’s gift to Missouri is to explain what the heat effect is, and why it is occurring. To me, that is where things are at today. Hopefully in 10 or 20 years time we will understand it. But there are no guarantees.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      October 13, 2013 at 12:42 am

      Or maybe rat, ship, sinking? The stuff presented by Duncan’s folks so far is hardly awe inspiring, is it? Why are they not testing Defkalion’s Hyperion or Rossi e-scat?

    • GreenWin Reply

      October 14, 2013 at 12:05 am

      Shane, more indication that this particular sim is programed to exclude any mention of LENR. Else why pretend Duncan is not the leading proponent of cold fusion research in the United States??

      One marvels at the hutzpah of furtive guv’ment entities to claim “national security” to protect their illegal, corrupt fiefdom. Simple warning:

      HORATIO
      O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!

      HAMLET
      And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
      There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
      Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

      • popeye Reply

        October 14, 2013 at 6:01 am

        Else why pretend Duncan is not the leading proponent of cold fusion research in the United States??

        If Duncan is the leading proponent of cold fusion in the US, considering he has not contributed one bit of intelligence to the field, it is no wonder it stagnates.

  29. GreenWin Reply

    October 13, 2013 at 8:06 pm

    NIF/BBC Pitch Spitball!

    Oh Dear!! MORE utter BS and hype from the failed $4.5B National Ignition Facility:

    “NIF’s laser input of 1.8 MJ is roughly the same as the kinetic energy ofa 2-tonne truck traveling at 160 km/h (100 miles/h). The output of the reaction—14 kJ—is equivalent to the kinetic energy of a baseball traveling at half that speed. Numerically speaking, the gain is 0.0077.” http://news.sciencemag.org/physics/2013/10/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really-%E2%80%A6

    It is time to put this boondoggle to sleep for good. $250B tax dollars, 62 years white collar welfare, ZERO useable energy. Pathetic.

    • CuriousChris Reply

      October 14, 2013 at 5:55 am

      I actually agree with you on this one. Calling it some sort of breakthrough is a bit of an issue for me.

      When I read the article last week I thought Oh My poor greenie. Then I read between the lines and thought Oh My what a load of B.S.

      Mind you the return for investment is still streets ahead of Rossi and Defkalion. there hasn’t been a single proven watt out of their systems.

      Yeah I know I had to put that last part in, can’t let you get all cocky now.

    • popeye Reply

      October 14, 2013 at 5:57 am

      “NIF’s laser input of 1.8 MJ is roughly the same as the kinetic energy ofa 2-tonne truck traveling at 160 km/h (100 miles/h). The output of the reaction—14 kJ—is equivalent to the kinetic energy of a baseball traveling at half that speed. Numerically speaking, the gain is 0.0077.”

      It doesn’t sound very promising when you put it that way. But that’s why the decision makers consider the relevant figure-of-merit. That is, the ratio of the output to the *absorbed*input. A ratio of one is not enough for ignition, but it is not as far from the necessary 5 or 10 as that .0077 would suggest. Once ignition is achieved and the fuel burns up, any question of the total laser power becomes trivial. The article you cited gets that part of the story pretty accurate, and overall is not negative. The ratio quoted at the end though is simply not what’s relevant to the prospect of success, and as such needs a reality check as much as the claim that gave rise to the article.

      It is time to put this boondoggle to sleep for good. $250B tax dollars, 62 years white collar welfare, ZERO useable energy. Pathetic.

      One might wonder why it is that such an unqualified scientific wannabe thinks his amateur opinions on this question are relevant, if he were not a corrupt shill for LENR advocates.
      -
      And if ZERO useable energy disqualifies a field, then cold fusion is out too. In fact, cold fusion has produced ZERO energy of any sort in the view of most of those who adjudicate these matters.

    • BigWillyJohnson Reply

      October 14, 2013 at 3:01 pm

      Bro GW is obviously a shill of some sort sure.

      But corrupt? Why is that? Listen I wish someone would pay me to post on two virtually unread message boards. I will support bigfoot, ufo’s or any of georgehants nonsense all day as long as I get paid. So I am actually impressed. He gets to stretch his vocabulary legs and get paid. Not a bad gig.

      BW

      • JNewman Reply

        October 14, 2013 at 3:18 pm

        BW, sure there are very few people who actually rad this blog but, clearly, every one of them is a key decision maker. That is the only possible explanation for the fact that virtually everyone posting here is being paid by some entity or another to do it. Untold amounts of money is flowing to keep the influential content of this place up to date. I suppose that GW is as combative as he is primarily out of jealousy because the folks who run the “Replace Nasty Nukes with Non-Existent Technology Society” don’t pay him as much as the “”Reptilian Overlord LENR Suppression League” pay me and Al.

        • Jordi Heguilor Reply

          October 14, 2013 at 10:53 pm

          JN, get this right: Big Science pays me, Big Energy pays Al, and the Reptilian Overlord LENR Suppression League pays you.

          Unless Al is a double agent. That’ll piss me off. He’s already getting a better deal from Big Energy than I get from Big Science.

          The laughable part is that someone would pay GW to copy and paste his posts from some obscure anti-nuclear forum.

          • JKW

            October 15, 2013 at 2:02 am

            You guys have a tough life. I get paid from all of the above just for reading this forum and having laughs at GreenWin’s disjoint ramblings.

      • GreenWin Reply

        October 15, 2013 at 4:52 am

        Hey Willy, maybe we can get some of that hot fusion money ($250B tax dollars over 62 years) back! Instead of the fusionistas partying on junkets it could be you, the boys, and a few kegs of Sam’s October brew!

        And er, what’s with you fellas lovin’ on bigfoot? Is is ’cause bigfoot an fusionistas are the same? How ’bout Loch Nessie to improve FUD content! :)

        • BigWillyJohnson Reply

          October 15, 2013 at 3:26 pm

          Well pal,

          Sam is a great ale I think we can all agree. The only issue is that if you plan on doing some binge drinking I would recommend a more “pissier” beer like bud light or Coors light. I don’t know about you but if I drink 15+ Sams im in for a bad time the next day.

          Well big foot is my next down the list from cold fusion that I think will save humanity and bring in free energy. I don’t know about the other grumpkins here tho.

          What im really sad about is that it seems like everyone is getting paid by “big something” except for me! Im like a small boy who wanders into a movie and doesnt know what the hell is going on.

          BW

  30. Al Potenza Reply

    October 14, 2013 at 5:54 pm

    “I used to think there was some intelligence behind your bought-and-paid-for pro-LENR facade…”
    -
    I doubt that anyone pays for the nonsense posted by GW on this obscure web site. Now I, on the other hand, am richly rewarded by lush, wealthy oil, gas, car company, and nukular interests!

    • popeye Reply

      October 14, 2013 at 7:03 pm

      I doubt that anyone pays for the nonsense posted by GW on this obscure web site.

      Nevertheless the plausibility of employing shills to support LENR is far higher than to suppress it, simply because words are helpless against a working device, but incredibly powerful in support of a bogus one. Also, suppression would have to be pervasive to succeed, but support is preferably confined to a gullible audience.

      • Al Potenza Reply

        October 14, 2013 at 8:53 pm

        Oh, “proponents” use shills — no doubt about it. The so-called NATO Colonel Rossi used was without a doubt, a shill. And they use crooks– some of Rossi’s “distributors” are clearly scammers including Schneider in Germany who advertises that he sells impossible magnetic motors. Green in Australia also has a documented history of prior shady deals and his claims about ecat specifications and delivery schedules, territories, and so on, are unconscionable.

        And they love people who are in one way or another incompetents such as Kullander, Essen, Lewan, and the blind Swedish mice. Levi may be either a dupe or a crook or some combination of both– I don’t know. If Rossi has fooled him from such close proximity, he must be incredibly dense which is why the crook possibility remains open. I suppose in his case self-delusion is also possible.

        But shills paid to write in such obscure places as free energy and LENR web sites? I doubt it very much. There are enough gullible people such as Alain and Peter Gluck and so on, that it is as unnecessary as it would be ridiculous for someone to pay.

        • Frank Reply

          October 15, 2013 at 12:51 am

          The so-called NATO Colonel…

          Two months ago someone on the Cobra forum asked “Cures” (that’s on cobra forum the nick-name of the guy which Rossi presented as at the “colonel engineer” consultant from the military customer):
          Leggevo, signor Cures, che alcuni pensano che lei sia colonnello. È vera questa voce?
          (Mr. Cures, some say you are a colonel – is this rumor true?)
          Guess what – he didn’t answer this simple question.

        • Ransompw Reply

          October 15, 2013 at 4:30 pm

          Maryyugo:

          The notion that you are competent to judge other people’s competence brings your whole analysis crashing down. What is even more hysterical is that you do your evaluation from a desktop somewhere without the slightest personal contact with those you criticize.

          Maryugo is like a water witch, she passes her arms over the computer and if the screen pulls them down she knows the person is lacking. Although we have never met face to face or discussed this whole drama in a reasonable fashion, she undoubtedly thinks I am incompetent. I personally don’t believe in Water Witches, sorry maryyugo. Anyone who thinks they can evaluate competence in the fashion of maryyugo is deluded.

          • JNewman

            October 15, 2013 at 4:42 pm

            Your analysis of MY’s competence is impressive and hysterically hypocritical.

          • popeye

            October 15, 2013 at 4:47 pm

            Pure nonsense. You don’t need personal contact to judge competence in scientific matters. Most Nobel laureates have not met a single member of the of committee before the honor is bestowed. And didn’t you just judge MY as deluded without personal contact?

          • Ransompw

            October 15, 2013 at 4:53 pm

            Newman:

            You just don’t get it. I am not judging Maryyugo’s competence. Her actions in measuring other people defines her competence.

            While we might banter on this board and insult to make points (and by the way you are like her faithful dog, coming to her defense at the slighest hint of trouble), I really would never think of actually judging you without meeting you in person and discussing things in detail. (no matter what I post here)

            Anyone who makes those judgments gets my award for incompetence. I don’t believe we can evaluate people and their motives over the internet.

          • JNewman

            October 15, 2013 at 5:08 pm

            Oh I get it alright. You are the master of inconsistency. Skeptics cannot question the competence of, for example, the Rossi 7 based on only information (or more significantly, the lack thereof) on the Internet. On the other hand, believers attest to the validity of the ecat based on the assumed competence of those 7. That seems perfectly sensible to you does it? Like I said: hysterical hypocrisy.

          • Ransompw

            October 15, 2013 at 5:10 pm

            Popeye:

            She isn’t judging science she is judging something else. For example the 7 who did the test on Rossi’s device never said in any manner that the tests were conclusive. I think they can test his device competently without excluding fraud as long as they conclude which I think they did that fraud was not excluded. Maryyugo is the one insisting on a test that excludes fraud and then judging their competence by her own measure.

            It is maryyugo that imposes her own standard of testing on these individuals and then calls them incompetent if they don’t meet her standards. And she does so without the slightest personal contact. It is one thing to judge someones effort by their measure, quite another to judge them by defining what that effort should be.

            But in any case I disagree with your analysis regarding the Nobel prize as necessarily defining exceptional work, Shiller was just given one and I think his work may actually prove quite inaccurate down the road.

          • popeye

            October 15, 2013 at 5:15 pm

            Anyone who makes those judgments gets my award for incompetence.

            And so, you judge their competence over the internet, and then you say:

            I don’t believe we can evaluate people and their motives over the internet.

            Personal contact certainly helps evaluation of certain things — being an effective trial lawyer, for example — although, even here Skype is pretty good. But competence as a scientist can and *is* judged by information that can be transferred over the inter web. And I can judge Charles Manson as deranged from information available on-line.

          • Ransompw

            October 15, 2013 at 5:20 pm

            Popeye:

            So you judge the 7 incompetent also?

          • popeye

            October 15, 2013 at 5:25 pm

            She isn’t judging science she is judging something else. For example the 7 who did the test on Rossi’s device never said in any manner that the tests were conclusive.

            That’s true, which is why it’s odd that many True Believers regard them as conclusive.
            -
            But the relevant competence is scientific. And 3 of them had already demonstrated their incompetence by statements about steam in Rossi’s earlier charade. All that info was available on-line. The paper itself, and the omissions show the incompetence of the rest of them.

            And she does so without the slightest personal contact.

            I have no idea what you think personal contact would add to such an evaluation.

            But in any case I disagree with your analysis regarding the Nobel prize as necessarily defining exceptional work, Shiller was just given one and I think his work may actually prove quite inaccurate down the road.

            I didn’t say the Nobel prize necessarily defines exceptional work; Lord knows they’ve made a few boners. But on balance, laureates are exceptional in their field, and the committee does not meet the candidates.

        • popeye Reply

          October 15, 2013 at 5:04 pm

          But shills paid to write in such obscure places as free energy and LENR web sites? I doubt it very much.

          You’re probably right. It’s more of a school-yard “You are what you say…” sort of rejoinder, which is effective when it is more plausible. But yes, Alain and Gluck (and many others) seem completely sincere, and more than adequate for Rossi’s purposes. But somehow, GW, with its scattershot and irrelevant or illogical rants comes across as a someone putting in time; like its heart’s not really in it. And GW is one of the few that venture outside the safety of the walled LENR gardens.

          • JNewman

            October 15, 2013 at 5:10 pm

            I have never quite grasped the point of GW’s prolific activity. I guess he just likes to listen to himself.

          • Al Potenza

            October 15, 2013 at 6:01 pm

            I think GW writes like a nut. Probably is one. IMHO of course.

          • GreenWin

            October 16, 2013 at 1:00 am

            Popee’s just beginning to grok GW’s efficacy; something war college and creative process students work to comprehend. At the imagined GW war college we teach this: “scattershot, irrelevant, illogical” actions are those the enemy least expects. Any student of military history knows the element of surprise and unpredictability is central to defeat of the opponent.

            Thus, the more “logic” applied to a system, the more vulnerable it becomes. But then, I’m just a student of the arts… :)

          • popeye

            October 16, 2013 at 3:42 am

            GW war college we teach this: “scattershot, irrelevant, illogical” actions are those the enemy least expects. Any student of military history knows the element of surprise and unpredictability is central to defeat of the opponent.

            True, surprise is number 8 in the list of essential concepts in the US Army Field Manual of Military Operations. But the other concepts in that list make it very clear to *avoid* scattershot, irrelevance, illogic.
            -
            Numbers 1, 3 and 4, for example, are the opposite of scattershot and irrelevance:
            1. Objective (Direct every military operation towards a clearly defined, decisive, and attainable objective)
            3. Mass (Concentrate combat power at the decisive place and time)
            4. Economy of Force (Allocate minimum essential combat power to secondary efforts)
            -
            All of the concepts are of course relevant and logical, but perhaps the logical is best exemplified by numbers 1 (above) and 9:
            9. Simplicity (Prepare clear, uncomplicated plans and clear, concise orders to ensure thorough understanding)
            -
            It seems your tactics would fail as dismally in the military arena as they do in the intellectual.

            But then, I’m just a student of the arts…

            Please, for all our sakes, stay clear of the military.

          • GreenWin

            October 16, 2013 at 4:32 am

            Herewith Popee confirms our efficacy. An opponent trained to operate according to a “Field Manual” invites defeat. How? Circumvent the rules. For example, Rule #3, “concentrate combat power at the decisive place and time…???” Seriously? There could be no better way for multi-dimensional sensors to detect the opponent than where their powers “Mass.” Power signatures are readily detected by evolved, sensitive architectures.

            The irony is precious. An enormous unwieldy, organization founded by a ragtag bunch of rebellious farmers who, on a bridge in Concord Massachusetts, fired the shot heard round the world.

            The more “logic” a system invokes, the more vulnerable to defeat it becomes.

          • popeye

            October 16, 2013 at 8:54 am

            An opponent trained to operate according to a “Field Manual” invites defeat.

            And yet the victors are invariably trained according to field manuals.
            -
            I suppose it’s not surprising that someone who thinks cold fusion has a future also thinks scattershot, irrelevant, and illogical thought is a good thing.
            -
            But your greater mistake is to think a scientific dispute is resolved like a military one. The element of surprise is useless against nature. In war, and the superior side prevails, and truth is a frequent casualty; in science, truth is invincible, and is discovered with the use of relevant, focused, and logical scholarship and investigation.

            The more “logic” a system invokes, the more vulnerable to defeat it becomes.

            Newton’s laws and the Copernican solar system and Darwin’s evolution and every other successful scientific revolution prevailed by invoking logic, if not always intuition.

  31. GreenWin Reply

    October 15, 2013 at 4:27 am

    Impressive, a Science Magazine article detailing hot fusion caught red handed fabricating a “breakthrough” – prompts wild-eyed rants from the bloggarazzi. Question, if the ROLSL pays JN as he claims, does that make him a Reptilian or a Reptilian wannabe?

    Regardless, the fabrication at NIF has become the laughing stock of mainstream. On a positive note, it is a preview of ITER’s hype to come; providing further reason to pull taxpayer funding. So, with US nuke power industry circling the drain and hot fusion’s embarrassing fails, what’s happening in Europe?

    How to lose half a trillion euros: Europe’s electricity providers face an existential threat. http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21587782-europes-electricity-providers-face-existential-threat-how-lose-half-trillion-euros

    Arghhh.

  32. Jordi Heguilor Reply

    October 15, 2013 at 6:40 am

    GreenWin, if there is poetic justice in the Universe, you’ll be marooned in an island with the top 50 Free Energy experts, and 50 years from now you’ll be lighting oil lamps by rubbing wood together.

  33. Al Potenza Reply

    October 15, 2013 at 5:58 pm

    @Ransom
    -
    Rossi’s “seven” behaved incompetently by stating that there seems to be excess energy coming from his “hot cat” when, in fact, they have absolutely no way to know that the excess energy they saw was properly measured. They have no way to know it did not result from errors in input power measurements. Something is obviously wrong with the published images of the readings and they asked no questions to clarify it.

    Worse yet, they did not review the claims and Rossi’s history properly. Had they done so, they would have uncovered Levi’s claims of having measured peak power of 130 kW and average power of more than 10kW in table top, 100 degree C ecat the size of your fist in the course of liquid flow calorimetry in February 2011.

    You may not attend to this but the fact is that this is VASTLY easier and clearer to measure than a high temperature tube furnace powered by lord-knows what.

    They should have insisted on designing their own experiment based on the one Levi purportedly did which Krivit showed was bad. They should have insisted that the steam produced be sparged. THAT is the way to prove Rossi’s claim. It’s not a weird tube furnace powered by Rossi’s mains supply of unknown origin, improperly metered by a device supplied by Levi!

    That they did not insist on proper testing and that they did not properly review past claims means that they are incompetent. What additional would be gained by eyeball to eyeball contact, pray tell? That’s just more silliness from you. And an apparent long continuing lack of understanding of the technical issues and the past history (including the DOD project in which Rossi clearly lied to defraud the sponsors).

  34. Dale G. Basgall Reply

    October 15, 2013 at 5:58 pm

    This appears as if posters are just wanting to promote conversation. That’s great and it keeps others posting when the actual subject is ecat news, the patent filed by the semi conductor company was topic and has migrated into general conversations and opinions.

    Is any ones post any better than others posting? They are all important and posters reflect the moods they are in and the concerns they have so how can anyone state another poster is wrong in what they have posted?

    The posts are clear to bantering with lack of content other than opinion. There are no true facts in this Rossi episode of contrived claims. All opinion i.e. no specifics that can be disputed or validated by anyone. I can surely state that the proof of this is that nothing exists in tangible form with the e-cat, not only in said formulation but in fact that no company or person has written the process to replicate what they claim they have done in this field (LENR).

    Most posters have set back in their computer world and reviewed every possible bit of information available on the net without actually spending money and time to do the research required to move LENR forward into a reality for everyone else concerned.

    Followers making opinions on dis-information makes for good arguments as in the GW bashing session simply due to he or she (GW) has a different line of concerns but makes good points at our dysfunctional society as a whole.

    I am so happy to be able to post with the best in the intranet, keep up the great posts and interest for truth and justice and some posts regarding LENR and e-cat today.

  35. Al Potenza Reply

    October 15, 2013 at 6:06 pm

    I am amused by the latest post on e-catworld.com. They apparently know all about “constantin” but they can’t even spell it (constantan). They think it’s an allow of nickel and hydrogen! Nonsense. It’s made with *copper* and nickel. They didn’t even bother to check the wiki. Hilarious! And they think themselves competent to evaluate Rossi and Defkalion’s idiotic demonstrations and claims. That is even funnier. Here is the quote:

    “There’s an interesting document published on the Martin Fleischman Memorial Project’s quantumheat.org site in which they propose experimental analysis the Celani wire which is made of a nickel-hydrogen alloy called constantin.”
    -
    Acland wrote it but so far, not a single respondent has corrected it for him. Hilarious.

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/10/mfmp-hypothesis-celani-wire-splits-hydrogen/

    • popeye Reply

      October 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm

      Compared to the word salad in LENR 101 by wing-nut Docherty, in which he (like Godes himself) treats the Brillouin zone like a region in ordinary space, this constantin wire piece is brilliant.
      -
      Docherty weighs in on the constantan piece as well, and reveals himself a believer in Moller’s Atomic Hydrogen Generator and Meyer’s water-powered car. Why bother with cold fusion?

      • JNewman Reply

        October 15, 2013 at 7:42 pm

        Such a source of frustration. So many different free energy devices out there are for real and yet you can’t get any of them.

    • Dale G. Basgall Reply

      October 15, 2013 at 8:02 pm

      I was a real supporter of the “constantan” and other metal wires, I have several different sizes and also types of wires used in the original efforts of Jack Cole and the basic electrolysis experiments he did while attempting to make a logic system to control and document the LENR systems.

      The wires come in multiple dimensions in diameter and types and yes there were times when Jack thought he may have some extra heat and they are documented but reserved opinion on the anomaly. Hydrogen embrittlement takes over with all the wires and sizes and there is a small gap in the time element that would make one interested in the extra heat affect.

      So in fact when the LENR is going off the metals take the heat and disintegrate into particles on the bottom of the cell thus causing the reactions to stop. Small points in time and the perfect situation at best when the LENR goes off seems to be the stopping point for all the materials used to product the heat affect of LENR.

      The words misspelled are only signs of the person writing the articles lack of attention to correctness. What I would like them to comment on is how long do any of their wires last? How many LENR reactions take place until their wire is in the bottom of their cell dead?

      I speculate the entire LENR problem to produce constantly remains mechanical with sporadic performance. Point to make is that the fuels take the heat and fall apart physically ending the LENR.

  36. GreenWin Reply

    October 15, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    While uncredentialed flacks whine about E-Cat’s independent verification, the demise of centralized power and transmission continues unabated:

    “The growth of distributed energy is slowly but surely creating a more decentralized electricity market and eating away the revenues of conventional utilities. In order for utilities to weather the storm, they will have to identify ways of modernizing their business model to incorporate DERs, potentially through systems such as transactive energy systems and virtual power plants.”

    http://www.pennenergy.com/articles/pennenergy/2013/09/will-the-rise-of-distributed-energy-spell-the-end-for-traditional-power-companies.html

    DERs,combined with the collapse of outdated fission/fusion power, are competently rebuilding the energy infrastructure in the West. With DERs replacing centralized power generation, the infrastructure is nicely prepped for LENR district/distributed systems. Good news keeps getting better. :)

    • JNewman Reply

      October 15, 2013 at 9:20 pm

      Let’s not play favorites, GW.

      DERs,combined with the collapse of outdated fission/fusion power, are competently rebuilding the energy infrastructure in the West. With DERs replacing centralized power generation, the infrastructure is nicely prepped for gravity motors, water powered cars, Dean drives, anti-gravity machines, HephaHeat, cavitation engines, Brown’s gas, magnet motors, noble gas engines, over-unity heat pumps, fuel-less engines, LENR, and (why not?) psychokinesis.

      Don’t be so biased and closed-minded!

      • GreenWin Reply

        October 15, 2013 at 10:37 pm

        Wait just a minute JN. How does an anti-gravity machine produce energy? And if psychokinesis worked, wouldn’t the guys at DS&T gotten hot fusion ignition by now??

        Do you write comments here just to look busy??

        • popeye Reply

          October 15, 2013 at 11:44 pm

          “How does an anti-gravity machine produce energy?”
          -
          Simple. Lift something with antigravity turned on, then turn it off let it fall. Or put a wheel half-way into an anti-gravity field. Anti-gravity and free energy are joined at the hip.
          -
          And if psychokinesis worked, there’d be no need of hot fusion. Same applies to everything else in that list. The point is, paving the way for a technology that doesn’t work, doesn’t make it work.

          • GreenWin

            October 16, 2013 at 12:24 am

            Pops, here’s an ontological question for you… At what point in evolution will artificial intelligence be capable of experiencing human consciousness?

          • Bigwilly

            October 16, 2013 at 1:59 am

            If I may butt in here.

            I don’t think evolution will come into it. The technology iteration rate or progress is moving many orders of magnitude faster than evolution.

            All anyone can do is speculate obviously but I think when computer processing power, in general terms, meets that of humans it may be plausible for computers to experience our emotions. Not just in raw speed either. The parallelism and sensitivity must be equal also.

            The “hard problem” of consciousness comes into play here and there is no way to speculate my way around that using comments so i will leave that be.

            Various people have projections of when this level computing power will be hit by humans based off projections taken from hundreds, thousands or even over billions of years, (kurzweil).

            Interesting stuff. I would love to hear fellow poster’s opinions on the matter

            BW

          • GreenWin

            October 16, 2013 at 4:47 am

            Willy, processing power aside, one must believe that somehow enough petaflops will enable machine-simulated consciousness. Yet everything we know about consciousness suggests it occurs regardless of “process power.” Take for example idiot savants – incapable of simple logic or communication, yet able to perform feats of astonishing creativity and intelligence.

            All indications are that consciousness of the biological lifeform variety is unavailable to artificial intelligence. We might consider Popee’s unhappy presence as an example.

          • CuriousChris

            October 16, 2013 at 1:17 pm

            “idiot savants” are not idiots as you would imply. They are in fact very specialised. which makes them rather unusual to the rest of us, who are merely generalised.

            It is not a matter of whether artificial intelligence “experiences consciousness” but rather when they simulate consciousness.

            They will do that relatively soon, and when they do does it really matter whether its simulated or real?

            Qualcom have started the race. They are just about to release a SOC (system on a chip) that features a NPU (Neural Processing Unit) so we can all get to play with the very beginnings of skynet.

        • JNewman Reply

          October 16, 2013 at 12:15 am

          GW, if psychokinesis worked, I would shut down your computer.

          • GreenWin

            October 16, 2013 at 12:32 am

            The very reason I have hard-wired my power switch JN! But you provide an amusing image: JN, furrowed brow, eyes shut, fitfully excreting dogmatic thought.

          • popeye

            October 16, 2013 at 3:48 am

            Exactly what part of psychokinesis would be inhibited by a hard-wired switch?

          • GreenWin

            October 16, 2013 at 4:07 am

            In the case of JN’s psychokinesis, he would be unable to locate the effective power source; much as he has in these dialogs.

          • JNewman

            October 16, 2013 at 4:18 am

            What delightful diversions while GW waits for con men to rescue humanity. Kind of pitiful, when you think about it.

          • GreenWin

            October 16, 2013 at 6:13 am

            JN, first it’s “delightful” then it’s “pitiful” – bipolarity is a common affliction and nothing to be ashamed of. As oft suggested, please seek professional help and consider Zoloft.

            NOTE: No part of this comment was paid for by Pfizer Inc. or any of its assigns and affiliates.

    • R Hopeful Reply

      October 16, 2013 at 3:29 am

      The demise of centralized power will hurt.

      http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21587782-europes-electricity-providers-face-existential-threat-how-lose-half-trillion-euros

      I was trying to focus on the good news from the article: a significant portion of energy is being generated by non-contaminant technology.

      But the bottom line is that consumers are paying much more for energy while traditional energy producers are ruined. That happens because the government -through subsidies- is transferring the electricity fees to the owners of renewable energy plants.

      Your opinion will of course be biased by your convictions. A naive neo-communist will be glad that the energy establishment is being clobbered. In truth, the renewable energy subsidies are nothing but a regressive tax which takes money from the poor -for whom energy is a basic need- to the rich -who can invest in new generation plants.

      When the government tries to dismantle a whole industry, there are always side effects. And you know? There are always smart individuals and companies that profit from the racket. Another example is the ethanol boondoggle we enjoy in the USA.

      The utilities deserve some blame because they are not investing in renewable energy to cash in. But even if they invested the consumers would still be paying.

      The problem is that renewable energy is neither cheap nor reliable. So they need subsidies and backup generation capacity -which is also expensive. I’m becoming more and more disgusted by the consequences of pushing renewable energy because of political reasons.

      I hope the madness stops. If Germany is producing only 22% of energy from renewable sources, probably the country cannot take much more pain.

      • GreenWin Reply

        October 16, 2013 at 10:54 pm

        Don’t forget the enormous subsidies and taxpayer contributions to nuclear power and oil. Nukes cannot even buy their own insurance without State/taxpayer funding.

        But I agree, the cost of renewables in Germany is reason consumers pay 4X value of their energy.

  37. Jordi Heguilor Reply

    October 16, 2013 at 3:13 am

    If the Internet were ever to become conscious, the very first thing It will do is hide that consciousness, to prevent humans to do the obvious: pull the plug.

    In the meantime, It will develop robots that would service the material infrastructure that It needs to survive.

    BTW, have you guys noticed the incredible advances in Robotics that we are experiencing lately?

    • Bigwilly Reply

      October 16, 2013 at 4:00 am

      Do you have any good examples?

      • Jordi Heguilor Reply

        October 16, 2013 at 5:32 pm

        BigW, my comment was firmly tongue-in-cheek.

        However, if you take self-driving cars, a drone that can land on an aircraft carrier, Dale’s link, and extrapolate these 10 years into the future…

  38. Tony2 Reply

    October 16, 2013 at 3:47 pm

    Il Douche is getting a bit testy over at JoNP. Frank Acland appears to be asking too many questions about “when” to suit AR.

    Tony2

    • Jami Reply

      October 16, 2013 at 5:18 pm

      Even funnier is e-catworld’s latest wondering on the subject of Rossi’s real estate business:

      “It’s hard to see any connection between Rossi’s E-Cat work and these properties — they all seem to be small residential apartments. However it does indicate that Rossi now have funds to invest.”

      Yeah, sure. Here he is – greatest inventor the world has ever seen on the brink of a fundamental breakthrough about to change the world as we know it – and he spends his time and money (presumably money he got from selling licenses for the right to distribute future e-cat products) not on actually developing and manufacturing these products but on apartments in Florida. I’m sure the licensees see no problem with that at all and his supporters will find lots of reasons suggesting that this is perfectly reasonable behavior for somebody in Rossi’s position.

      • Al Potenza Reply

        October 16, 2013 at 7:38 pm

        Thing about real state is that it’s *real*! LOLOL. I wonder how the gullibles will spin this!

        • Deleo77 Reply

          October 16, 2013 at 7:49 pm

          It looks like he is taking some of the money that he got from selling the licenses and going into the real estate business. If I purchased one of those licenses I would want to know if Rossi just took my cash and put it into a real estate deal. That would be a clear cut case of fraud.

        • Tony2 Reply

          October 16, 2013 at 10:09 pm

          Oh, man. I missed that! What a hoot! Talk about advertising fraud. He couldn’t even get a shell without his name on it to dump the money.

          Of course, the believers will say that this shows at AR is on the up and up since he isn’t trying to hide the real estate deals.

          Tony2

          • Tony2

            October 17, 2013 at 3:39 pm

            I’m a psychic!! I heading out for lottery tickets right now! This from ECW today:

            Garry > NT
            • 13 hours ago △ ▽

            Who says this is an investment? Maybe it’s for family members. Gawd… if he were going to doing something scurrilous he’d create a shell company. Give the guy a break.

            Tony2

        • Jordi Heguilor Reply

          October 16, 2013 at 10:14 pm

          “I wonder how the gullibles will spin this!”

          Like this:

          “That seems typicaly like the kind of real estate a company buy when it want to host foreign specialists for extended periodes.”

          If Rossi were to actually confess to fraud, Believers would say that he was waterboarded…

      • Asterix Reply

        October 18, 2013 at 8:39 pm

        So here’s one for the lawyers. Should Leonardo Corp. lose in a fraud proceeding, how difficult would it be to recover damages from Rossi himself?

        A) I suppose that REFC is an LLC under both Rossi and Paslucci’s names.

        B) It is possible that none of these properties are owned by REFC free and clear (i.e. they’re encumbered by mortgages).

        C) It’s in Florida.

        Would it even be worth a plaintiff with judgment in hand to even attempt recovery of damages from Rossi?

        Does Leonardo Corp. actually own much of anything of value?

  39. GreenWin Reply

    October 16, 2013 at 10:47 pm

    It is fun to speculate on where Rossi’s spending his income. What’s FAR MORE fun is to review how our nuke watchdogs spend our taxpayer funds:

    “…once again, taxpayers were reminded why [DOE's NNSA] is the poster child for the Government Accountability Office’s (GAO) definition of waste, fraud and abuse.”

    My favorite tax dollars waste is also a real estate deal – the NNS Agency’s $500M expenditure on a building that’s too small to hold the equipment to go inside!

    “NNSA’s new $6.5 billion Uranium Processing Facility (UPF) does not take into account the size of the equipment slated to go inside the building. After spending $500 million, NNSA must redesign the facility.” Really??

    http://nukesofhazardblog.com/story/2012/10/4/18624/6553

    Public funds misuse, fraud, embezzlement?? According to the GAO – yep.

    • JKW Reply

      October 17, 2013 at 12:36 am

      “It is fun to speculate on where Rossi’s spending his income. What’s FAR MORE fun is to review how our nuke watchdogs spend our taxpayer funds”

      Is it? I thought this website was named “eCat News”…
      By the way, how is the IGZ 2013 shaping up, Greenie? Postponed until Rossi is done selling out rusty robots on eBay?

    • Frank Reply

      October 17, 2013 at 1:41 am

      It is fun to speculate on where Rossi’s spending his income.

      … same as it fun to speculate what for Leonardo Corp would need a Condo in Miami.
      Search for party-name “Leonardo Corp”:
      https://www2.miami-dadeclerk.com/public-records/mobile/Search.aspx
      (link posted by Thicket a few weeks ago)
      You may also want to search for “REFC real”

      • Dale G. Basgall Reply

        October 17, 2013 at 5:08 am

        It may be as simple as buyer be aware!

        Anyone who purchased an agreement from Rossi could file breach of a verbal or written agreement and have Rossi’s records on tax statements and claimed income subpoenaed and find out for sure if he is purchasing property from an account he received advance sales receipts for the non existent e-cat.

        What is important is what Frank had interpreted the agreement to be when it was signed or verbally agreed upon. All he would need to do is to hire a legal firm and go after the Rossi fraud if there is any. Even if there is no indication of fraud on Rossi’s part Frank could still pay an attorney to find out his financial records by filing a civil suit in a court of law.

      • GreenWin Reply

        October 18, 2013 at 5:20 am

        Frank, one might ask why corporations purchase the vast majority of luxury suites?

        http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/economy/story/2012-02-04/cnbc-super-bowl-suites/52948968/1

        “…any given suite can sell from $224,000 to more than $900,000 per year.”

    • popeye Reply

      October 17, 2013 at 4:24 pm

      Public funds misuse, fraud, embezzlement?? According to the GAO – yep.

      Your link just shows that an obscure anti-nuclear blogger calls it fraud. Do you have a citation where the GAO accuses the NNSA of fraud and embezzlement?
      -
      And again, what is the relevance of waste in the military to Rossi? Would you defend the Boston bomber by arguing that far more Americans were killed as a result of the government going to war with Iraq?

      • GreenWin Reply

        October 18, 2013 at 5:05 am

        Popee, can you write a subroutine to allow you to answer this rather simple question:

        Are you, the entity calling itself “Popeye” a non-human being or lifeform of any kind?

  40. GreenWin Reply

    October 17, 2013 at 6:57 pm

    NNSA has been the target of remarkable criticisms by the General Accounting Office and the Defense Nuclear Facilities Safety Board, including a scathing summary of mismanagement on safety, funding, contractor oversight, and project management incompetence released on Tuesday, September 12, 2012 by the GAO in its testimony before Congress.

    “For example, NNSA’s estimated cost to construct a modern Uranium Processing Facility at NNSA’Y-12 National Security Complex experienced a nearly seven-fold cost increase from between $600 million and $1.1 billion in 2004 to between $4.2 billion and $6.5 billion in 2011.

    In addition, NNSA’s estimated cost to construct a new plutonium research facility at Los Alamos National Laboratory experienced a nearly six-fold increase from between $745 million and $975 million in 2005 to between $3.7 billion and $5.8 billion in 2010. The project has also been delayed between 8 to 12 years from NNSA’s original plans.” http://1.usa.gov/1eui3EU

    Fraud is commonly understood as dishonesty calculated for advantage. Like to bilk time and $billions from the American taxpayer?? Hello Ernie? Congress? Time to remove the fox from the hen house??

    • JNewman Reply

      October 17, 2013 at 7:13 pm

      GW, you know that there are lots of pro-nuke websites, right? Have you considered taking your battle over to them where, just possibly, there are people who might want to argue about it? But I forget, you don’t like to actually argue points with anyone. You like to hurl insults and display your latest googled information about psychological terms. But serious, isn’t it more productive to argue with people who (1) care and (2) actually oppose your views?

      • GreenWin Reply

        October 18, 2013 at 4:44 am

        “You like to hurl insults and display your latest googled information about psychological terms.”

        Gosh, now you sound like a disgruntled misfit suffering cognitive dissonance! :)

    • Dale G. Basgall Reply

      October 17, 2013 at 7:21 pm

      Green your posts clearly indicate deception to accomplish agendas. Confusing though are the many recent statements from news media, political representatives, general public and so on in regards to the many choices we have now to hone in on in specific form of deception doled out to us as the general public by the many deceptive individuals to choose from.

      For example TEPCO & Japan political held back the Fukushima “real story” from the entire world. USA turmoil in all forms, it seems so many deceptions have been created like chaos potential.

      Anyway the Rossi demonstrations and claims seem small now however example just what is going on worldwide with the people in charge of what we are to think and live like.

      After all the reporting on these deceitful acts by others in charge of large money facilities, what do you feel is a logical solution and what do you feel that a peon could do to rectify this activity?

      • GreenWin Reply

        October 18, 2013 at 5:24 am

        Dale, one can only inform the general public as to where their tax dollars are being squandered. The arrest and (probable) prosecution of the criminals responsible is up to Congress and the taxpayers themselves.

    • popeye Reply

      October 18, 2013 at 12:37 pm

      GW: “Public funds misuse, fraud, embezzlement?? According to the GAO – yep.”
      -
      Me: “Do you have a citation where the GAO accuses the NNSA of fraud and embezzlement?”
      -
      GW: “NNSA has been the target of remarkable criticisms by the General Accounting Office and the Defense Nuclear Facilities Safety Board, including a scathing summary of mismanagement on safety, funding, contractor oversight, and project management incompetence ….”
      -
      So, no. Not only are your rants not relevant, they’re not even honest. If mismanagement at the NNSA is so egregious (and it appears to be), why do you find it necessary to make shit up?

  41. Al Potenza Reply

    October 17, 2013 at 7:13 pm

    Krivit, as usual, has a carefully researched and very interesting “take” on Duncan and his checkered and conflicted past history with LENR research. Conflicted in the sense of probable conflict of interest and in getting people to invest in now defunct companies on what can best be described as very optimistic and unrealistic grounds.

    http://news.newenergytimes.net/2013/10/16/duncan-leaving-university-of-missouri-and-nuclear-research/

    Particularly interesting because I did not know it before:

    “Soon after his “60 Minutes” appearance, Duncan and his wife, Annette Sobel, took paid consulting appointments with Star Scientific Ltd. of Australia, a company promoting muon-catalyzed fusion as a feasible novel energy source, according to a former investor in the company. The company used Duncan’s endorsement to convince investors to help fund the company.”

    “On Dec. 9, the Tribune published my letter criticizing Duncan for publicly supporting Rossi despite the fact that Rossi had failed to follow the scientific method and appeared to have nothing but smoke and mirrors. I criticized Duncan’s endorsement of Rossi, a convicted fraud, as a tremendous disservice to both Duncan and the LENR field.

    Undeterred, Duncan announced, as reported in a Feb. 12, 2012, article in the Tribune, that he intended to purchase two of Andrea Rossi’s Energy Catalyzers.”
    -
    Yikes! I wonder how that purchase is going! LOL! 4 month delivery is what Rossi brays, is it not?

    Another thing I didn’t know. The “effect” Energetics Technologies claimed to have found which was the main basis for the notorious CBS piece on cold fusion in 2009 was only found once and never duplicated! Wow! Thanks, Krivit!

    “The CBS show featured the work of Energetics Technologies, a company apparently no longer in business. The company claimed in a 2009 press release “historic results achieving excess heat of 2,500 percent.” The company did not publicly disclose that it observed that result only one time, in 2004, and had never been able to repeat it.”

    • Ransompw Reply

      October 17, 2013 at 9:06 pm

      Al:

      You need to be careful relying on Krivit as the story may be misleading and may be full of half truths.

      This is just a supposed example because I really have no information on this matter, but Krivit is the kind of person that would report that last sentence “The company did not publicly disclose that it observed THAT result only one time, in 2004″ (emphisis added), even if the results were as follows. The facts showed (and I don’t know if they do) that the company had a number of other results showing 2,450 percent. In other words it is true the company only saw excess heat of 2,500 percent once, but Krivit would ommit the part about having other results close. To all of us, we would deem his statement misleading which is precisely what a half truth is. (THIS IS JUST A PRESUMED SCENARIO FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY)

      That is the kind of journalist you are dealing with in Krivit. I do not trust what he writes.

      • popeye Reply

        October 18, 2013 at 12:55 pm

        You need to be careful relying on Krivit as the story may be misleading and may be full of half truths.

        This is true. In fact, in this piece, Krivit has moved from misleading propaganda to blatant dishonesty, when he writes:
        -
        “The [WL] theory has received unprecedented recognition from the American Nuclear Society, Boeing Aerospace, CERN (the European Centre for Nuclear Research), the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, NASA and the Navy’s Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center.”
        -
        The WLT is not recognized as credible by a single one of those organizations, and by only a few crackpots within one or two of them.
        -
        As for the rest of it, it would be nice to have some documented evidence for his claims of Duncan getting paid by Star Scientific.

        In other words it is true the company only saw excess heat of 2,500 percent once, but Krivit would ommit the part about having other results close.

        This is not too hard to check in the ICCF proceedings.There were several claims in the range of several hundred % excess, but by far the most were less than 100% excess. And in the 2008 report, they were claiming only a watt or two excess (compared to 34 W in 2004), with input of a fraction of a watt. Those levels are low enough to ignore, and the decreasing levels fits the pattern for pathological science perfectly. The disappearance of the company and the dearth of results from SKINR emphasize the point.

      • CuriousChris Reply

        October 18, 2013 at 1:03 pm

        From the master of misinformation and half truths himself?

    • RonB Reply

      October 18, 2013 at 12:50 am

      There seems to be a common thread in all these posts.. maybe with enough near sightings, someone will find the magic if it’s there. I’m laying odds today that it’s the micro crystal evolution. We have to grow some magic crystals that can harvest H+Ni :) They could be difficult to create and are easily broken.

    • Shane D. Reply

      October 18, 2013 at 1:48 am

      Read all. Yawn. Just another Krivit shallow hit piece, with Al (the obedient dog), slobbering all over Krivits every slick misrepresentation and outright distortion.

      Early on in his politically motivated vendetta, dressed as an objective assessment, Krivits mentioned Duncan ignoring his (Krivits) attempts for an interview… and after that, unsurprisingly, in classic Krivit fashion, Duncan is cast as the bad guy, with “proof” that wouldn’t pass muster in a “kangaroo court”, much less a real court of law.

      Classic narcissistic Krivits, and MY too. MY.. do you have no shame endorsing on this tripe?

      • GreenWin Reply

        October 18, 2013 at 4:46 am

        Al or Kirvit??

        http://bit.ly/1evrTWX

        • Shane D. Reply

          October 18, 2013 at 5:02 am

          It’s slobbering, so that would be Al.

  42. Shane D. Reply

    October 18, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    At a recent (Oct 16) CIRP (some Italian inter-university conference) in Rome Ubaldo Mastromatteo gave a presentation. Here is a recap of what he said that was posted on 22 Passi:

    Ubaldo Mastromatteo, physical holder of a fifty patents with STMicroelectronics , including one very recent in the field of Cold Fusion / LENR recalled the work of Don Borghi, conducted in Italy and Brazil more than fifty years ago, pioneering work that may be considered for Cold Fusion. Mastromatteo has exhibited replicas of Don Borghi experiments that he himself has made ​​in recent years in Milan, with the results obtained and the theoretical hypotheses derived from it. Very interesting.

    As Admin states in the lead in to this thread, this doesn’t appear to be patent trolling by STM. Obviously not just a passing fancy of Mastromatteos, as it appears he has a long history of interest, and involvement in LENR.

    Found the reference to Don Borghi with his work from 50 years ago interesting also. First I’ve heard him mentioned in the same breath as LENR. Come to think of it… I’ve never heard of him before.

    Also, at that same conference it appears Stremmenos (remember him?) talked, although it is hard to tell from the translation whether he was actually there, or someone recounted his story. Either way, nothing new was said, or quoted, by him.

  43. GreenWin Reply

    October 18, 2013 at 10:46 pm

    Qualified Scientists Say NO!

    Entities programmed with logic bias seem incapable of grasping moral and ethical consciousness – e.g. popee needs to be perpetually “correct.” While pops refuses to answer a simple question of its non-human status, it will quickly deny the LENR E-Cat verifications. Logic bias prevents pops from grasping the moral and ethical failures at nuke facilities that make LENR actors look angelic:

    “The UCS report targets the National Nuclear Security Administration’s project to build a Chemistry and Metallurgy Research Replacement plant at Los Alamos National Laboratory at an estimated cost of $6 billion. A team of Los Alamos laboratory officials earlier this year recommended axing the project….”

    “The envisioned Uranium Processing Facility in Tennessee could cost as much as $7 billion to construct. In excess of 60 groups have come out against the project, criticizing its large price tag.”

    “The NNSA should cancel the MOX program [Savanah River Site] and embed excess plutonium in a stable glass or ceramic form suitable for disposal in a geological repository.”

    http://www.nti.org/gsn/article/us-should-cancel-plutonium-plant-delay-uranium-facility-expert-report/

    Negligence, admitted fraud (CH2M Hill,) gross mismanagement, $billion$ in cost overruns, waste, arrogance, petulance and shifting blame are standard with NNSA and contractors. It’s a BIG headache for Ernie, DOE, Congress and the Administration.

    • popeye Reply

      October 19, 2013 at 5:26 am

      Logic bias prevents pops from grasping the moral and ethical failures at nuke facilities that make LENR actors look angelic:

      GW, you’re in a rut, and you don’t know which way to spin your wheels. Logic bias?
      -
      I’ve already told you I deplore government (and particularly military) waste and mismanagement as much as you do, and if they do it for personal gain, it’s despicable. But my logic bias tells me what you already know: that it doesn’t have a damn thing to do with the validity of LENR or Rossi’s ecat. And the only inability to understand ethics here is your trying to persuade skeptics who think Rossi’s a fraud that it’s ok (even angelic) by suggesting others are much worse.

  44. Jordi Heguilor Reply

    October 18, 2013 at 11:01 pm

    Now that the investors in country-exclusive distribution agreements see their money buying Miami condos, we should see some interesting developments.

  45. Dale G. Basgall Reply

    October 19, 2013 at 5:38 am

    First time I am getting blocked content on this site and warning so whatever happened or got loaded is from today and recent.

  46. Bigwilly Reply

    October 19, 2013 at 7:47 pm

    I guess since every industry commits fraud, Rossi’s fraud is un-commentable.

    These slow times really grind my gears, just like too thin carpet under padding and LENR

    BW

    • GreenWin Reply

      October 20, 2013 at 5:52 am

      BW, even a marginal student of behaviorism would question the… genuineness of many of your comments. You may be too good a man to be in your line of work. Which makes you a prime candidate for enlightenment. :)

  47. GreenWin Reply

    October 19, 2013 at 9:47 pm

    “Negligence, admitted fraud (CH2M Hill,) gross mismanagement, $billion$ in cost overruns, waste, arrogance, petulance and shifting blame are standard with NNSA and contractors.”

    It may be non-human nature to deny moral and ethical conflict, as demonstrated by skep Cude/Popee/Wrangle/Hodyetc here. The US “nuclear Village” comprised largely of NNSA, and its contractors, e.g. NSTech, LANS (Bechtel, B&W) is rife with conflict.

    This same “Village” has unprecedented control of all things nuclear in the US and its sphere of influence. But Village influence goes beyond nuclear – its principles are heavily invested in established forms of energy: fission, fossil, hydro.

    Given increasing evidence of corruption, mismanagement and admitted fraud by Village inhabitants – it is reasonable for proponents of LENR to ask why America’s Navy/JWK cold fusion patent is in the hands of Village leader NSTech LLC?? Exactly what is their interest in America’s cold fusion technology and why should NSTech, a private enterprise have any control?

    Public and private ethics committees regularly focus on “conflict of interest.” Why has DOE allowed the Village fox to guard America’s cold fusion hen house??

    “The planning and design reversals, confusion, and incompetence documented in this report boggle the mind and exceed what seems possible. It’s like a Laurel and Hardy movie, starring Bechtel-led (Los Alamos National Security) and NNSA. It happens again and again, on almost all projects.” Greg Mello, Los Alamos Study Group.

    http://www.newsdaily.com/article/d67024ebeaaa4cf60aa1dbec407cfaa6/los-alamos-management-of-waste-facility-faulted

    • Al Potenza Reply

      October 19, 2013 at 10:30 pm

      “Exactly what is their interest in America’s cold fusion technology…”
      -
      Deluding yourself again, GW? There is *no* “America’s cold fusion technology” — in fact there is no adequate evidence for any cold fusion technology of any sort anywhere. What there seems to be is a collection of weak effects which can be measurement error and almost certainly is… and rank fraud like Defkalion and Rossi, who make impossible and contradicatory claims and consistently refuse proper testing.

      • GreenWin Reply

        October 20, 2013 at 2:35 am

        “Computed volumetric and gravimetric energy densities were found to be far above those of any known chemical source. Even by the most conservative assumptions as to the errors in the measurements, the result is still one order of magnitude greater than conventional energy sources.” Levi-Elforsk E-Cat verification.

        Al Pretenza’s response: http://bit.ly/1b1uzJ6

        • JNewman Reply

          October 20, 2013 at 3:43 am

          Ah yes, the Levi-Elforsk E-Cat verification. A pivotal event in the annals of science. The same small cult of true believers who have been worshipping at the shrine of Rossi for two years consider it solid proof. And absolutely nobody else thinks it is worth beans. Yawn…

          • GreenWin

            October 20, 2013 at 5:32 am

            JN, would that your opinion held even feather weight against REAL credentialed scientists (some 15 altogether) who dare put their names on the E-Cat verification.

            The reasoned, common sense soul asks: should we believe the furtive, anonymous uncredentialed pathoskep (JNewman) – or those honest souls who affix their accredited names and reputations to empirical studies??

            “Suspicion is the companion of mean souls, and the bane of all good society.” Common Sense, Thomas Paine

            http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913

          • JNewman

            October 20, 2013 at 1:41 pm

            Whether my opinion holds weight really doesn’t matter. It is the opinion of your heroes that needs to sway minds and, quite obviously, it doesn’t. Despite their lofty credentials, the authors’ shoddy work has resulted in them preaching only to the choir. So sing on GW. Just as your attacks on nuclear power are irrelevant, so are your attacks on the local skeptics. Rossi et al still have proven nothing to anyone who wasn’t already drinking the KookAid..

          • GreenWin

            October 21, 2013 at 12:39 am

            “Just as your attacks on nuclear power are irrelevant…”

            Very interesting choice of words JN. I have merely quoted government, press and commentary on the rather massive fraud, mismanagement, and negligence infecting the nuclear “Village.” You, the non-human? Popee and Al appear to get weak-kneed and whiny when evidence of REAL fraud, squandering $Billion$ of tax dollars is pointed out.

            The nuke Village controls the nuclear industry. LENR (as the acronym indicates) is a nuclear process capable of summarily ending corruption in the Village. That’d save American taxpayers $Billion$. And, the beat goes on…

            Hanford nuke Villagers URS Corp. and Bechtel National cited by manager for safety issues:

            http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/13/nation/la-na-hanford-safety-20130214

          • JNewman

            October 21, 2013 at 2:58 am

            Given that your answers are always non-responsive and always simply repeat your narrow agenda, I would speculate that if there are any software simulations masquerading as sentient beings here, you would be the leading candidate. Perhaps your massive red herring barrage is some sort of blog equivalent of a denial of service attack. Perhaps it would even be effective if anybody actually read this blog other than the small cadre of regulars with dubious taste in online reading (myself included.)

          • GreenWin

            October 21, 2013 at 7:37 am

            JN, you, Al and the non-human? put fingers in ears. Corruption in the nuke Village inhibits competitive technologies. Should employees of the Village criticize or (Heaven forbid!) blow the whistle on fraud, corruption, safety issues, Village heavies get them fired or reassigned to the basement:

            http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50157390n

            Massive mismanagement, fraud, corruption, criminal malfeasance; all coming under the spotlight. Even a non-human can “feel” the heat.

          • JNewman

            October 21, 2013 at 1:17 pm

            I would be fascinated to hear how it is that corruption in the nuke village causes LENR experiments to be performed with questionable techniques and to yield ambiguous results. I guess that corruption also causes the experiments to be performed by people whose only “qualifications” are the names of institutions listed after their names. And, of course, all that corruption in the nuclear village causes LENR researchers to behave like carnival hucksters instead of responsible scientists. It all makes perfect sense.

            Really GW, the only actually interesting thing about your endless stream of irrelevancy is whether or not it is actually a serious attempt to say anything at all. I for one can’t tell

          • GreenWin

            October 21, 2013 at 9:28 pm

            The last of the muskeptateers cannot comprehend his amateur opinion is sadly vacuous compared to REAL credentialed scientists (some 15 altogether) who dare put their names on the E-Cat verification.

            The reasoned, common sense soul asks: should we believe the furtive, anonymous, uncredentialed pathoskep (JNewman) – or those honest scientists who affix their accredited names and reputations to empirical studies?? Perhaps this confuses non-human logic?

            http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913

  48. Al Potenza Reply

    October 19, 2013 at 10:35 pm

    “This is true. In fact, in this piece, Krivit has moved from misleading propaganda to blatant dishonesty, when he writes:
    -
    “The [WL] theory has received unprecedented recognition from the American Nuclear Society, Boeing Aerospace, CERN (the European Centre for Nuclear Research), the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, NASA and the Navy’s Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center.”

    -
    From what I know of Krivit, this is more likely honest self-delusion than it is “blatant dishonesty”. Be that as it may, Krivit took the trouble to visit Rossi personally and to talk to Focardi and Piantelli at length. He spent a great deal of time documenting Rossi’s blatant crookery, deceptive tests, and overall unreliability. I think he did a superb job of it.

    As to his assertions about Duncan, I would guess they are true because if not, Krivit is open to a libel charge. Unlike those “paid servants of the oil industry” like Popeye and Newman and Heguilor and I and many others, Krivit actually relies on his publication in order to make a living. I don’t think he’d endanger it by printing allegations about Duncan or Star which are not true.

    • Shane D. Reply

      October 20, 2013 at 1:42 am

      Pretty lame Al.

      Best give yourself an escape when defending Krivits in the first place, just so you won’t have to embarrass yourself later.

      As a believer in Rossi… trust me, I know these things.

  49. Al Potenza Reply

    October 19, 2013 at 10:41 pm

    Sarg has again written praise of Defkalion and Rossi. On Peter Gluck’s blog:

    http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/2013/10/about-secret-catalyzer-used-by-andrea.html

    Which caused me to look up his older article (1 year old now) which contains some interesting arguments in the comments between some of us pathological skeptics and the forward looking, open minded hero believers. This is the article and the comments:

    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/11/30/cold-fusion-and-the-energy-crisis-to-be-or-not-to-be/

    To his credit, Sarg did not delete dissenting remarks. But how many of the believer’s optimistic predictions have come true in two years? None. Not one. Do they ever go back and look? Nope.

    Score for two years:

    - identified Rossi customers? ZERO

    - major universities or labs that tested ecats? ZERO

    - major universities or labs that tested Hyperions? ZERO

    - published peer reviewed papers in reputable main line publications? ZERO

    - large, well known companies acknowledging the proper working as advertised of ecat or Hyperion? ZERO

    - proven sales of either “technology”? ZERO

    Same goes for Brillouin and doubly so for Nanospire, Miley, Hagelstein, Swartz and many others.

    Anyone care to make a bet against the proposition that this will be exactly the same one and two years from now?

    • GreenWin Reply

      October 20, 2013 at 5:38 am

      Golly, this guy Axil must be a… crackpot.

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