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Breaking News

August 6, 2013

To anyone wondering why I only post ‘significant’ developments regarding the eCat, please note that at this point, I consider the eCat/Hyperion arena a giant waste of time. I admit to being baffled and cling to fading hope that the 7 scientists involved in the HotCat test have not been duped or worse. I sincerely hope that my radar is broken – the world needs a miracle more than I need to be right.

Despite the best efforts of our hardest sceptics, there is still a slim chance that Rossi’s bizarre behaviour is symptomatic of a lone genius riding a tiger. Unfortunately, apart from that one report, almost every other ‘fact’ supports the tentative conclusion that he is mentally ill or a fraud.

I give even less credence to Defkalion. The recent demo was impressive while you can suspend disbelief but that is only possible if you ignore that they too seem to be working to the beat of Rossi’s strange business philosophy. A child asked to test a furnace capable of multiplying heat energy with a COP of six or more could prove it absolutely and with ease without revealing what’s in the box. After years of failing to do so and given the extraordinary nature of their claims, if you do not wonder why, you are better at suspending that disbelief than I.

I could list a litany of clues informing my best guess but it’s all in the comments for those willing to look.

I have a keen interest in the dynamics of co-operation and thank all of you who have taken part in the discussion here and elsewhere. You may not have seen it as co-operating but in probing all corners and comparing what has been said with the reality of later events, we are able to build a better picture and recognise our own weak arguments for what they are. It is sometimes difficult to differentiate a troll from a person who simply disagrees with you. That problem is compounded when money is at stake. Emotions run high and conspiracy theories rampant. If fraud is indeed at the centre of this story, it is hard to believe those involved would not pepper the conversation with multiple personalities disguised as sincere believers.

For now, I will leave the discussion open. I continue to ask you to keep emotions in check and hold back on the tendency to call the peripheral players in this saga idiots or worse – these are real people and you do not know them.

To the hard sceptics, do not let the certainties that drive you cloud your thinking. I was disappointed in the quality of many of the rebuttals regarding the HotCat test. You do not need to exaggerate or throw shit at everyone involved – your arguments are strong enough without that nonsense and diminished with it. While my best guess puts me at your side, I do not believe that we can discount the Levi paper as insignificant. The jury is out whether its significance lies in the incredible dynamics of human behaviour or in the future history of the world. I know where my bet would lie. It’s a bet I’d gladly lose.


Edited to clarify that this post refers to the eCat and its like. Although, we cannot predict the outcome of such research, I do not consider LENR to be a waste of time or its researchers anything but scientists trying to find the truth.

Posted by on August 6, 2013. Filed under Defkalion,Tests & Demos. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

1,746 Responses to Breaking News

  1. GreenWin

    September 10, 2013 at 3:03 am

    Dear Willy, i dunno mind at your imployed by A Mighty Whind machine. Ever since i soar those whind mills in Hollow-land i thot it is a nice idea from free energy! This is for reason the whind is free, right?

    But I prefer the hotcat energy which will not have free because it needs secret cattlest. I keep the secret from the Kim Jon and Ruskies Boris and Natasha to make the peace. Anyway, please to have a bier and deep dished pizza with me next we will meet at illegal seafood or Ken More’s Square pub. Sam Clemmons bier is my charge!! Free! (not like hotcat) Heh heh.

    • JKW

      September 10, 2013 at 3:37 am

      Ruskies?…Wake up, GW! ’89 is gone! Stan is not so well, not to mention Martin.. We need IGZ 2013 eagerly! You promised.

    • Andy Kumar

      September 10, 2013 at 6:32 am


      Another quote to add to your arsenal.

      “My spelling isn’t bad, you fascist mouron, it’s innovative” – anon

      Syntax “needs improvement”, as they say politely in elementary school.


    • BigWillyJohnson

      September 10, 2013 at 6:07 pm

      Sam Clemmons and illegal seafood????

      Bahahahhahah thats for true

  2. GreenWin

    September 10, 2013 at 9:33 am

    You calling me a fasctist?? And you don’t know to spell innivative??? BWTF JKW, who is Stan Martin??

    • JKW

      September 11, 2013 at 12:52 am

      who is Stan Martin??

      GW, I am disappointed with you. I expected anyone but you to ask such a question. Well, let’s see if you are a Believer or just fooling around.
      Hint: Stan and Martin. You can add Andrea and make it a Trinity.
      Go figure.

      • BigWillyJohnson

        September 11, 2013 at 2:46 am

        If bro GW doesnt get it can you share the answer with the rest of us non super smart people? Im not good at haikus.

        • JKW

          September 11, 2013 at 4:11 pm

          Will, you should know it. Martin and Stan, also known as F&P, are the sacred founders of the cold fusion sect.

        • BigWillyJohnson

          September 11, 2013 at 5:35 pm

          Mr. JKW

          Thanks. AFter reading today whilst not drunk i figured it out.


          • GreenWin

            September 11, 2013 at 11:24 pm

            Me too. But I had to consume several bottles of Claret and some Fava beans.

    • Andy Kumar

      September 11, 2013 at 1:27 am


      I was suggesting if someone questions your spelling, YOU can call THEM “fascist mouron”. Not that anyone doubts your linguistic ability:) I happened to find the quote just yesterday. So I passed it along.


      • GreenWin

        September 11, 2013 at 5:40 am

        Andy, I look forward to a copy of the Yale book. Thanks again for the referral.

  3. Al Potenza

    September 10, 2013 at 6:08 pm

    Well… I can tell from the recent comments that proponents of Defkalion and Rossi as the most promising technologies in LENR+ have nothing to say. Nothing is going on. The New Fire is fizzling around only in obscure blogs like

    A year into MFPM, they are still doing overly complex experiments whose only results are a demonstration of the difficulty and unreliability of measuring small amounts of heat energy. They seem to refuse the obvious: increase the number of Celani wires many times over (10X seems like a good number, 20X would be even better) and increase the signal to noise ration. I am sure the wire is hard to get but scratching around and achieving nothing for a year while spending money doesn’t make much sense either.

    Nothing new from Brillouin. No high energy from Nanospire, Miley, Swartz or well… anyone else.

    Some time ago Hadjichristos suggested that he wanted me to test his kludge (Hyperion). I replied behind the scenes and also two other people I know from the internet replied to him. Angus tried to visit Defkalion and nobody was home. Henning Dekant tried to get an appointment for the one day he is in Vancouver anyway and guess what? They’re out of town that day. That’s how far we got. We provided a proposed protocol to Peter Gluck. No comments on the proposal yet.

    Still believe LENR and LENR+ work? WHY?

    • JKW

      September 11, 2013 at 2:48 am

      It starts to feel like the final phase of the Rossi circus show. In the past he was able to create an anticipation date to keep the crowd excited – a date for another demo, a date for shipping the perpetual motion machine to a “customer”, or a date for an indipendent report. Now the only anticipation date is the six month test of some form of a cat, and which kind of started sometime this year and is extended to “more than six months”. It deflates the spirit, doesn’t it?

      • JNewman

        September 11, 2013 at 3:32 am

        Even Frank Acland is blogging about random other stuff. I never have figured out what Rossi wanted his fan club for, but if he isn’t careful, he is going to lose most of it.

        • Jami

          September 11, 2013 at 9:19 pm

          I don’t know whether he really ever had a fanclub as such or whether the club is just the usual bunch of people who believe absolutely everything as long as it is demonstrably untrue. The nomads of crazyness. Today it is Rossi – and when it finally becomes clear, even to them, that he’s got nothing, they’ll shrug, blame it on some conspiracy or society in general and move on to the next stupidity – be it another magnet motor messiah, a faith healer or somebody bending spoons. Seeing Sterling Allen arguing his way time and time again around his 100% failure record gives an insight into how these people’s minds work – or at least fail to work.

          • BigWillyJohnson

            September 11, 2013 at 10:02 pm

            Hey Jami,

            Has Sterling actually address his 0-469 record? I always wondered about this.


          • JNewman

            September 11, 2013 at 10:46 pm

            Sterling seems to be a devotee (like a number of regulars here) of the notion that positive thinking about these crackpot schemes can somehow make them come true. Furthermore, he definitely believes that negative thoughts are preventing these breakthrough technologies from succeeding. If that is the way your mind works, there is little room for critical thinking.

          • BigWillyJohnson

            September 12, 2013 at 4:55 pm

            Mr. Sterling needs to get GW on board for his cause. All those free energy devices and no one is paying any attention. They are all getting supressed. We need to raise awareness and get Senor Rossi to donate funds to get those projects off the ground.


      • Deleo77

        September 11, 2013 at 3:38 am

        I think it was over when Rossi started making canned statements and he backed off from sharing a photo for the e-cat that supposedly arrived in the U.S. There has never been any verification that his U.S. manufacturing partner exists, or that Rossi is even in the U.S. It pretty much ended for me when all of that happened a month or two ago.

        Now I just check back every few days to see if anything is going on, and there isn’t. DGT had their 15 minutes and they ended up suandering it either through bad mistakes in their measurements, or outright fraud. If people like the MFMP or some university professors around the world want to research LENR because they are curious about new possibilities, that is fine with me. I wish them all success and the best of luck.

  4. JKW

    September 11, 2013 at 7:03 pm

    Rossi’s comment on JONP yesterday:
    As I said, we are continuing the work of research, validation of the E-Cats and since this rigorous work, made with the help of teams of specialists and of scientists will not be finished, I will not be able to answer this kind of specific questions.
    Warm Regards,

    So, two years ago e-cats were already heating a factory. Last year the robotized factory was nearing completion, the product was ready to roll out, and the only thing that stopped it in track was a pesky UL certification. This year Rossi is busy researching and validating the technology.
    In Rossi’s world time flows backwards. The teams of tight lipped specialists and scientists consist of Oompa Lumpas, I guess.

    • JNewman

      September 11, 2013 at 7:10 pm

      Deployment, then manufacturing, then validation, then research… What’s next?
      I guess soon Rossi will discover the ecat!

      • GreenWin

        September 11, 2013 at 11:27 pm

        Prior to discovery will be awarding of the Nobel Prize. It worked for Obama.

        • JKW

          September 11, 2013 at 11:55 pm

          Such a pity Stan Martin didn’t get one. Hmm, perhaps discovery, then Prize still works when it comes to science

        • dsm

          September 12, 2013 at 12:48 am

          I enjoy your posts so much because as I posted to JNewman below, the world would be utterly boring if we were all the same (say, JNewmans 🙂 )
          The lack of logic and commonsense by some of us makes this whole forum fun and unpredictable. Unpredictability appears to give us our great leap forwards in human advancement and achievement !.
          Pls keep posting.
          Thanks DSM

        • Andy Kumar

          September 12, 2013 at 7:51 am

          “Prior to discovery will be awarding of the Nobel Prize. It worked for Obama”

          Off topic, a little philosophical. Peace Prize by its very nature has to be given before the work is completed or even begun 🙂

          Thirty years ago, I was telling my girl friend that all the world conflicts will end in 50 years (peace in our children’s life time). She told me, “Andy, you don’t know how the world works.” My logic was that the “newer” nations will sort out the conflicts left over from the colonial past in that time frame despite interference from powers that be.

          But it seems that just like the e-cat, peace is always just beyond the horizon. If you try to come closer to the horizon, it moves away!


  5. Tony2

    September 11, 2013 at 7:42 pm

    Crap. Looks like my 1MW ecat that I ordered 2 years ago is delayed again. Gosh darn it all!

    Another year to wait!


    Andrea Rossi
    September 11th, 2013 at 8:22 AM
    I say what I can: as you know there is considerable speculation about the Rossi Effect highlighted in the third indipendent party report published on Arxive Physics (” Indication of anomalous heat energy production in a reactor device containing hydrogen loaded nickel powder “). While we test our work in a long term validation test, that probably will endure one year, it will be impossible for me to talk about what we are doing. Where there are discoveries to share, positive or negative, it will be done.
    Warm Regards,

    • JNewman

      September 11, 2013 at 9:40 pm

      Clearly, Rossi has been hushed up by Big Brass. We all just have to join Daniel Maris and the other patient souls who have long ago adopted the wait-and-see mantra.

      • dsm

        September 12, 2013 at 12:43 am

        But you know as a matter of scientific fact that ‘wait and see’ eventually works !.
        Problem is predicting the ‘wait’ before the ‘see’.
        The real world is made up of the #1 impatient (must see now!), the #2 in between (who cares just show me when it works), and the #3 patient folk (we must wait, ‘repeat’).
        If we didn’t have this ‘nice’ mix of us all, the world would be an utterly boring place QED.

        • JNewman

          September 12, 2013 at 12:53 am

          It is very easy to be patient if you are convinced that there will be nothing to see. Hence, with respect to Rossi and his commercial competitors, I am quite prepared to wait forever. But that doesn’t mean tht I can’t have a little online fun in the meantime!

    • JKW

      September 11, 2013 at 10:33 pm

      “positive or negative

      Gee, what an admission!The snakes and puppets could have been right, after all!

      • Tony2

        September 11, 2013 at 11:56 pm

        And he has the gall now to start talking about the “Rossi Effect” as if it’s somehow up there with the Tony2 effect.

        If you don’t know that’s the one where you drink way too much and wake up with a woman who looks like G. Levi and you are scarred for the rest of your life.

        No doubt there is “considerable speculation” about the “Rossi Effect”. Most of the considerable speculation can be boiled down to”

        “Just WTF is the Rossi Effect, actually”.

        I’m kind of sad it’s ending this way. It still has a chance to flame out like the Petroldragon affair but that’s looking less and less likely. I love watching a good train wreck in slo mo. You know, like going to a wedding where the bride gets into a big, drunken tiff with the mother-in-law and she winds up crying all over the place. Or the groom gets all boozed up and insults the father of the bride which leaves her crying again. Or just anything that gets the wedding party into fisticuffs of some sort.

        Man, I love that kind of thing.


        • JKW

          September 12, 2013 at 12:13 am

          The Tony2 effect.. Ugh, can’t shake it off! I think I need a drink.

          • dsm

            September 12, 2013 at 12:36 am

            That comment from you (“I think I need a drink”) would be quite funny if it weren’t an observable conclusion in regard to you and your postings, your ‘apparent’ life (retired?), and your ‘apparent’ fav pastimes LOL
            (as posted by me before to you – pls pass that Shiraz – am sure it is a really good one)

          • JKW

            September 12, 2013 at 4:30 am

            DSM, a number of comments from others indicates that it is a somewhat common pastime. You might call it the Rossi Effect.

  6. R Hopeful

    September 12, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    For entertainment: RAR Energia are still working on the gravity motor, and now they claim it works.

    • Al Potenza

      September 12, 2013 at 8:21 pm

      That’s simple. It *can’t* work or all of physics, classical and modern, is entirely wrong. Impossible, of course. And it is, of course, never shown working or anything remotely like working.

      It’s a peachy sculpture. Nothing else. It’s like a friend of mine’s elderly Renault car. The engine broke and she renamed it Runzonni. ’cause it runzonni down hill.

      • R Hopeful

        September 12, 2013 at 8:42 pm

        Self-deception is truly an unlimited resource. It seems this is the product of a rich individual who thinks he is smarter than his high school teachers. Weird.

        • JNewman

          September 12, 2013 at 9:59 pm

          The free energy “movement” is another fine example of what Barbara Ehrenreich calls the “Cult of Positive Thinking”. If you just believe that the laws of physics will adapt themselves to your personal desires, then it all will work out in the end.

  7. JKW

    September 13, 2013 at 4:14 am

    Looking at haphazard “admin” comments under the latest ECW post about Brillioun Energy – seems like Frank A. was binge drinking today. The Rossi Effect is spreading.

  8. JordiHeguilor

    September 13, 2013 at 5:29 am

    Well, it looks my time is coming up. In this or other thread I forecasted a couple of months ago that the whole Farce will unravel by the end of September.

    My reasons were that the Ecat representatives taking money from investors or one of the Seven Warfs recanting, would raise hell.

    Come September 30, if this scam is still going, I’ll shall not post anymore and disappear from the Ecat scene together.

    • JNewman

      September 13, 2013 at 12:44 pm

      Jordi, this thing has been unraveling for over two years but there are always new threads being stitched in. It is highly unlikely that anything precipitous will occur by the end of this month, or the end of the year, for that matter. One thing about these scams is that they have remarkable staying power. Once people have been taken in, their self-esteem is on the line and they are loathe to admit their folly no matter what.

      • Tony2

        September 13, 2013 at 2:32 pm

        Please don’t leave! This whole saga makes crack cocaine look like Lipton tea!! You just have to see the final act. I still hope it will a doozy with AR perp walking into the slammer.

        And you can’t get away from the humor here! I almost died when the General called AR “Il Douche”! That is brilliant.


        • Al Potenza

          September 13, 2013 at 7:49 pm

          Yeah, Jordi. Many laughs yet to come. Like Steorn, LENR is the gift that keeps on giving, especially LENR+.

          • JordiHeguilor

            September 13, 2013 at 9:52 pm

            Looking at my spelling and grammar in that post, I can see I was quite “illuminated” when I wrote it, but my forecast was like that.

            Right now I’m in Uruguay, a country where I’ll eventually want to retire in. Beautiful, nice educated people, lots of water, mild climate, no religious or ethnic or racial problems, stable democracy since forever, hell, they are so smart they voted to legalize cannabis. It was called once “The Switzerland of South America”.

            The only problem: no energy. No oil, no geo, no wind to speak of. It costs your right testicle to heat a house in winter.

            That’s why it galls me when Believers accuse us of not wanting a solution. Just a frigging regular Ecat to warm up houses in winter would solve 50% of this country’s energy problems.

            Switzerland? Screw the clock-makers. Uruguayan girls are far better looking.

            BTW, still, come end of September, if I’m wrong, I’ll look but not post anymore.

          • GreenWin

            September 16, 2013 at 4:55 am

            Safe journey Jordi.

  9. Shane D.

    September 13, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    Listening to last nights (9/12) Brillouin Energys interview on Scarecrow should give even the most hardened skeptic pause. Fascinating actually. Shows that while we quibble over the lack of observable progress on LENR, and lose faith due to the lack of, there runs a quiet shadow world of world class research and development taking place right under our nose.

    Godes seems to validate both Rossi and DGT with DGT being the more advanced. That is because they are starting to key in on “Q pulses” being run through their reactors. Note: Rossi has been suspected of doing the same from the beginning.

    Sodium hydroxide provides Brillouins H for their boiler (105c) product ….hopefully ready for OEM next summer. The “gas” high temp (600c) device they have over at SRI uses nickel nano powder in a fluidized base that sounded to me is loop circulated through the Q pulse to avoid the sintering -thereby the stability problem, that Rossi and DGT have. Feed in H for actual reaction also, and according to them the nickel is never used up (unlike competitors). So sounds like NI is the catalyst?

    The gas high temp reactor is kept over at SRI and is estimated at 300w electrical input, 30kW thermal/ 10kW electrical. Over 10 COP …. Impressive.

    Doing interview because they need second round funding for engineers and hardware development.

    On another point; seems wherever the light shines in the shadowy LENR world one finds the US Navy Research Lab people. See them here too as they and Google (yes. Them!) paid a visit to Brillouin.

    Don’t know skeptics… This is getting too much to keep denying. When does healthy caution turn pathoskeptic?

    • JNewman

      September 13, 2013 at 3:59 pm

      Healthy caution is what it is until somebody credible corroborates the work. Anybody can make claims and brag about their supporters. Until there is independent (and not indipendint) proof, it is just more hot air. The fact that you choose to believe every claim by every claimant is at least as pathological as anything you ascribe to skeptics. Go ahead and celebrate another triumph for LENR if you’d like. I plan to wait and see.

    • Al Potenza

      September 13, 2013 at 6:03 pm

      “The gas high temp reactor is kept over at SRI and is estimated at 300w electrical input, 30kW thermal/ 10kW electrical. Over 10 COP …. Impressive.”

      How is such a silly claim, completely and totally without substantiation by “indipendent” testing, “impressive”?

      What is impressive about it?

      Don’t you realize that a device that makes 10 KW **electrical** output from 300 watts in would NOT require ANY electrical (or other) power input? All one would have to do is to use some (a small part) of the electrical output to provide whatever power was needed for the input! OBVIOUS!

      You really don’t get that? The claim is pure, complete NONSENSE.

      • Shane D.

        September 13, 2013 at 10:36 pm


        SRI is a very legitimate enterprise and research institute. They have established many of the guidelines for calorimetry involving LENR. I even think a guy there literally wrote the book. Brillouin has been affiliated with SRI for well over a year now. As far as I am concerned… If Brillouin claims their hot gas device needs to be fed input from other sources, then it is like SRI saying the same. That is enough for me for now and trumps your criticism.

        So yes, their claims are still very impressive to me.

        I am sure that going from initial early stage development -with the current stability and reliability issues, to more advanced models will entail a self fed system. At this point, doing a self sustain would slow development as the thing would always be shutting down.

        • JNewman

          September 13, 2013 at 10:57 pm

          Shane, use common sense instead of an appeal to the authority of SRI. If the device produces 10kW of electrical power, how can it not be possible to use 300W of that output to drive the thing? Does the device “know” the difference between 300W from the wall and 300W from its own output? Let’s not be silly.

          • Shane D.

            September 13, 2013 at 11:43 pm

            Yes, I understand that. Like I said though: maybe at this early stage development doing a self feed slows down research on the basic reactor performance, it’s control, and it’s stability? Adding a self feed when they haven’t ironed out the other basics is maybe letting the cart get ahead of the horse. Or maybe they have tried, but loading the system affects the reaction.

            I don’t know anymore then you or Al, but when all three commercial developers of LENR+ tell us that they need external electrical input…. Then I guess there is some good reason.

            Easy to ignore DGT and Rossi for some good reasons, but you throw someone credible like SRI in there…. Then this thing starts getting some serious legitimacy.

          • Al Potenza

            September 14, 2013 at 12:17 am

            Wasn’t SRI the same outfit that endorsed Uri Geller’s psychic powers and wrote an article about for Nature? An article that they published and later had to retract?


            Sarfatti, J. 1975. Letters: Retraction on Geller. Science News 108(23): 355

            And many other references.

          • Shane D.

            September 14, 2013 at 12:35 am


            If there is a skeleton in the closet to be found…. You will find it.

            I know you bring this up occasionally about McCubre and Geller. I also know it wasn’t that simple,, but too lazy to research. Too busy keeping up with all the “Breaking News”.

            But, if it will make you happy, I will accept that McCubr may have made a mistake in hisr past by believing something that was later found untrue.

            Yes, he is human. By golly, we can’t have that amongst LENR researchers! Surely Angus, Andrew, and your other frat brothers over on Moletrap never, ever do something they wished they hadn’t?

          • JNewman

            September 14, 2013 at 3:39 am

            Well, the notion that “loading the system” adversely affects the reaction is more abandoning common sense. What does it mean that the system outputs 10 kW of electrical power? Power means power into a load – a bunch of resistors, a lightbulb… something. Otherwise, it is not even sensible to discuss power. So that dog won’t hunt.

            In any case, like with NASA, NRL. DARPA and many other organizations cited frequently in these pages, the business about SRI is an example of false attribution. Those institutions have not endorsed LENR or validated it. Individuals among the thousands of scientists working there are supporters. There is a big difference. Show me an official document in which SRI (and not some specific researcher there) has endorsed the work of Brillouin and then I will see things your way. Otherwise, it is a false association.

          • Al Potenza

            September 14, 2013 at 8:15 pm

            Shane: it was not McKubre who endorsed Geller. It was Puthoff and Targ.

            McKubre branded himself as extremely gullible when he complimented one of the Rohners for “demonstrating” how noble gases make energy (they don’t, they can’t, they won’t, they never have, Rohner is a dupe or a crook and Pap for CERTAIN was a con man and a criminal and a chronic inveterate liar).

    • R Hopeful

      September 14, 2013 at 1:31 am


      I watched the broadcast, to see if there was something new and interesting. To me it felt like one of those fake interviews staged during the late-night TV infomercials. A bad one at that. Pitiful. The interviewer was clueless, he made no effort to bring up controversial counterpoints. He showed amazement at Godes’ Physics expertise in Physics, when the only hint of his knowledge in the field is the mention of the word “megaelectronvolt”.

      I don’t know if the guys at Brillouin are lying. It is even possible that they are much more competent than transpired during the interview.

      But this interview was a charade.

      And it pisses me off, because if they have what they claim they have, it would SO EASY TO PROVE once and for all that this technology works. Just get on with it and stop the clown acts.

      The same goes for DGT, by the way.

      End of frustrated rant.

      • Shane D.

        September 15, 2013 at 2:06 am


        Amazing how a believer and skeptic can watch the same thing, yet the skeptics see it so wrong.

        What is wrong with you guys?

        How many highly credentialed, esteemed, qualified, pedigreed scientists have we believers paraded here and elsewhere, only to suffer you skeptics personal attacks upon their integrity?

        To save you the effort -the list is long, so don’t bother.

        How many times do you guys throw your colleagues “under the bus” before you finally start listening to what they say?

        Tired of seeing very technically sophisticated, high level, and professional LENR research/development, and peer review simply trashed by lazy types on the internet.

        • JordiHeguilor

          September 15, 2013 at 5:29 am

          Shane, forgive me for thinking out of the box, being weird, call me crazy if you must for what I’m going to suggest:

          Show us something that WORKS.

    • JKW

      September 17, 2013 at 12:19 am

      Until your last paragraph I thought you had a good sense of humor with a touch of sarcasm. Then I realized – you actually are serious. Well, godspeed Brilloiun, DGT, and the whole shebang. Let them work in their mysterious ways, along with Rossi

  10. Thicket

    September 13, 2013 at 6:39 pm


    Surprise, surprise. Rossi moves the goalposts again.

    It was a six-month validation test. Now it’s a year. I hope that the believers have a good supply of Kool-Aid. This is gonna take a while.

    Andrea Rossi
    September 11th, 2013 at 8:22 AM

    While we test our work in a long term validation test, that probably will endure one year, it will be impossible for me to talk about what we are doing. Where there are discoveries to share, positive or negative, it will be done.
    Warm Regards,

    • Al Potenza

      September 13, 2013 at 7:47 pm

      I wonder who is dumb enough to give him money at this point. I bet plenty are. I noticed on that someone wanted to know how to invest in Brillouin! Morons wanting to invest in bozoes.

    • JordiHeguilor

      September 13, 2013 at 10:00 pm

      How the hell can Rossi run a year test WHILE the robotic factory is spitting out hundred of thousands of Ecats every month?

      If the test is negative, what exactly are they going to do with the millions of WRONG Ecats?

    • Shane D.

      September 13, 2013 at 11:51 pm

      I always said that if Rossi didn’t produce by 11 September 2014 then I would wash my hands of him. Looks like he’s going right up to my deadline. What a coincidence!

    • RonB

      September 14, 2013 at 2:19 am

      Perhaps the validation team have found problems that are taking longer to fix than was expected. I can imagine that if 50 units are running a validation suite that many problems will be revealed. This type of testing is an absolute must for new products destined to be sold to consumers.

  11. Bernie Koppenhofer

    September 13, 2013 at 9:10 pm

    Al Potenza….Do you live on this site? Every other post is from you. Maybe the people paying you can provide a cot.

    • BigWillyJohnson

      September 13, 2013 at 9:49 pm

      Hey Bernie,

      Is your water for African children desalinization to be powered by Rossi’s magic machine going well?

      Delays? Whodathunkit


    • Al Potenza

      September 14, 2013 at 12:18 am

      Hi Bernie,

      I live on the site. Big oil and nuckulear industries pay my spot.

      What excuse do you have for inhabiting Rossi’s rectum?

      PS: Bernie, I know you mean well but you don’t help your cause by being such a gullible person! And also by attacking reasonable critics such as little old me!! So, take that!

    • Tony2

      September 14, 2013 at 12:30 am


      Nobody is paid here. We’re for the fun. Your man has just bent you all over and done to you what was done to him in prison.

      Did I just write that? OMG – yes I did!

      I’m here because I can’t believe any rational, thinking person would think that AR has anything. Reading the “JoNP” makes “The Onion” really look like “America’s Finest News Source”. And I try to figure out why anybody believes this guy.

      Bernie – when will enough be enough? DGT is deep black again. And the master has said that the test will run for at least a year and he doesn’t know what the results will be even though he’s claimed to have sold at least a baker’s dozen of the things to everybody from the US military to his “US Partner”.

      My interest, as it is for most of the folks here that don’t believe AR has a pot to piss in,isn’t any kind of science. There simply is none here. The interest is to see just how strong the need to believe actually is. How can you possibly think this convicted felon; holder of a degree from an on-line diploma mill; associate of a bunch of nobodies (G.Levi springs right to mind); prolific writer of a blog that reminds me most of the scene in “Whatever Happened to Baby Jane” when Bette Davis can’t control her lipstick; is the savior of mankind?

      That’s why I’m here. This guy has wrapped the believers all around the May Pole for the last three years and you still come back to the altar holding nothing more in your hands than everything AR says and your own limp dicks.

      Fascinating and troubling at the same time.


      PS – I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to insult the manhood of anybody who thinks AR has anything. Maybe you all walk up to the altar with a boner that is hard enough to cut glass.

      • Frank

        September 14, 2013 at 2:08 am

        I can’t believe any rational, thinking person would think that AR has anything

        … with such a statement you will upset Ransompw 😉

        But you are right, it is amazing that people – who believe themselves to be ‘great thinkers’ – do have such a lack in ‘common sense’ when it comes to evaluate whether the marvelous promises and claims of those Rossi-type guys are plausible at all.

        Just one example:
        If you google for ‘e-bay fuelsaver’, you find plenty of magical gadgets which promises to increase your car’s mpg by 10% and more.
        So, there must be buyers who pay for such kind of magnetic / nanotech / quantum-effect stuff.
        Do this guys never ask themselves, why does the inventor sell this gadgets on e-bay for a few bucks instead of selling the patent to Toyota, GM, VW … for millions? If this gadgets would work, wouldn’t the car manufacturers gladly install them in their cars so that they can advertise their cars with a higher mpg number?

      • JNewman

        September 14, 2013 at 3:45 am

        Guys, keep in mind that pretty much the only believers who post here with any regularity are the sensible ones. I have no idea why they still stubbornly cling to their faith in these con artists, but they do. But compared to the utterly delusional people on e-cat world, they are pretty sharp customers.

        • GreenWin

          September 16, 2013 at 5:01 am

          See folks? Even JNewman knows without belief, there can be no disbelief.

          • JNewman

            September 16, 2013 at 12:55 pm

            Greenie, I wasn’t talking about you. I have no clue what you actually believe. You are not just a fictional name, you are a fictional character.

          • GreenWin

            September 16, 2013 at 2:05 pm

            Why, thank you JN. I am partial to fictional characters e.g. Moshe, Tom Joad, Macbeth, and יְהֹוָה

            Literary characters often have a defining effect on readers; recalcitrant Holden Caulfield engaged a couple generations of youth.

    • RonB

      September 14, 2013 at 2:16 am

      I can see why you might think that but it is possible that Al has an app for his smart phone that allows him to know when someone posts something new and he can respond if he likes to.

  12. JordiHeguilor

    September 14, 2013 at 4:29 pm

    Leaving science aside for a moment, I think that, after reading Al and Tony2’s posts, skeptics have the best writers.

    “I live on the site. Big oil and nuckulear industries pay my spot.
    What excuse do you have for inhabiting Rossi’s rectum?”

    “PS – I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to insult the manhood of anybody who thinks AR has anything. Maybe you all walk up to the altar with a boner that is hard enough to cut glass.”

    Those two really made me laugh. Call it a sophomoric laugh, but it was a good one.

  13. RonB

    September 15, 2013 at 1:10 am

    I wonder if we were to track the lenr activity levels on-line and relate it to the outside temperature, would we find a match? I know I came looking on-line for a cheaper source of winter heat a couple years ago. Was thinking I should change energy sources and I thought I’d investigate any current fusion research and I found this place 😮

    • Methusela

      September 15, 2013 at 1:35 pm

      If only we could harness the excess energy from Potenza’s keyboard!

      • JNewman

        September 15, 2013 at 5:29 pm

        Yeah, darn it. If it wasn’t for Al, LENR would be taking over the world.

        • Al Potenza

          September 15, 2013 at 8:48 pm

          Hey Meth!

          Ask Rossi to show you an ecat at a satisfied famous customer’s site. Or for sale at a big box store. OK?

          Until you can do that, you should please STFU.

      • JKW

        September 17, 2013 at 12:50 am

        Meth is back!! Good to see the good olde folks gathering for the Grand Finale. Or the Granny Old Scam Fizzle Out.

        • Jordi Heguilor

          September 18, 2013 at 4:39 am

          To shorten Methusela to “Meth” is an insult to “tweakers” everywhere…

  14. JordiHeguilor

    September 15, 2013 at 5:51 am

    The latest news from the next Nobel Prize winner, Andrea Rossi, are interesting. As in there will be no news for a year.

    That should be a problem for E-catworld: pretty soon they will be reduced to comment on Oprah’s weight gain or loss, and its relation to Cold Fusion (Sorry, now it’s New Fire. They don’t get that what we call a turd, by any other name would smell as foul).

    PESN, on the other hand, will tell us about the 597th QMoGen that “allegedly” works. By now, PESN record is about 0-789. Isn’t there a General Manager to fire him?

  15. GreenWin

    September 16, 2013 at 5:37 am

    Hello gents, the morale here is… desultory at best. So to lift your impoverished spirits maybe you can help me out. I have long believed in man made global warming. I mean even if there was a Medieval Warm Period – it couldn’t have been as hot as today, right?

    So now, we read about the next IPCC report, y’know the one from the expert climate scientists who know climate science and are the sharpest tools in the climate shed – they say, they effed up. They… er, their “models” over-exaggerated global warming. WTF??

    It was experts who told us Fukushima was not a problem. Experts told us heavier than air flight and space travel was impossible. Experts said the Sun revolved around the Earth and Continental drift a myth. Hell, former Pres George H.W. Bush announced Nelson Mandela dead two weeks ago… but government experts in South Africa say Mandela is still alive!! WTF?? Experts are confused!

    The Arctic ice pack is 60% greater than a year ago. The Antarctic (home to 90% fresh water on Earth) ice pack continues to GROW!!

    I’m starting to become a climate skeptic ’cause being a consensus-based climate believer is disappointing. At least I didn’t fall for the carbon credit scam.

    Anyway even if President Mandela is not dead – the decrepit old centralized grid system is. 🙂

    • JordiHeguilor

      September 16, 2013 at 1:34 pm

      Very interesting article, GW. However, I’m sure you have noticed that is not just starry-eyed hippies and grant-hungry scientists who are believing on global warming, but hard-nosed businessmen and countries who are eyeing the Arctic as a route and as a source of oil and minerals.

      • GreenWin

        September 16, 2013 at 8:28 pm

        I imagine those hard-nosed businessmen may lose a lot of cash in the ice-free arctic: — from 1:20 EU discussion of climate.

    • popeye

      September 17, 2013 at 9:02 am

      I’m having trouble following you here. For months you’ve been arguing that Rossi must be legit because of expert validation. Now you’re telling us experts can’t be trusted.That would seem to argue that Rossi is not legit.

      But you must trust some experts, or you’d never fly, drive, or consult a doctor (maybe you don’t). So, how do you decide which experts to trust? Ouija board?

      In fact, your diatribe is nonsense.
      It was experts who told us Fukushima was not a problem.
      Anyone who said that could not be an expert, because Fukushima was designed to produce electricity, so failure to do that represents a problem. Some said Fukushima was under control, which is/was arguable, and that fossil was still far worse per unit energy, which it is. Anyway, aren’t experts now saying Fukushima is a problem, so that means it’s not, right?

      Experts told us heavier than air flight and space travel was impossible.

      No one who had seen birds could have honestly believed heavier than air flight was impossible. Some experts famously said flying machines were impossible, but they were in a small minority. Also many non-expert religious types said God would not permit flight. But aviation was treated as respectable science by the most prestigious journals long before it was accomplished, and most scientists regarded it as inevitable for centuries. Very unlike cold fusion.

      There was some expert skepticism of space flight, but it was not the consensus, and of course, experts (rocket scientists) delivered space travel. The remaining skeptics after Apollo were (are) decidedly non-expert, and very much of a similar mindset to the cold fusion believers now — namely that the scientific establishment is conspiring to mislead the public for their own nefarious purposes. Cold fusion is so very unlike space flight, and so very like moon landing conspiracy theories.

      Experts said the Sun revolved around the Earth

      Everyone said that at first, and it was experts who said and showed that it was the other way around. The holdouts were the non-experts in the catholic church. And it’s the cold fusion true believers like Rossi, and not skeptics, that appeal to a higher power in matters cold fusion.

      and Continental drift a myth.

      But it was also experts who suggested continental drift. When evidence is equivocal, disagreements are normal. But the question was not settled by arguments about whether experts are to be trusted, but by improved evidence that removed all doubt about plate tectonics. There were also proposals of expansion and contraction of the earth, which were not widely accepted; in this, the consensus prevailed.

      If cold fusion were real, one would expect the evidence to improve, but it simply gets worse, while the evidence suggesting it should not happen is rock solid, and compared to continental drift, cold fusion is on a vastly smaller scale, and would be a far far simpler phenomenon to prove.

      The Arctic ice pack is 60% greater than a year ago. The Antarctic (home to 90% fresh water on Earth) ice pack continues to GROW!!

      The global system is complex and erratic, and neither of those contradict global warming. The 60% increase in the Arctic ice pack in particular is a dunce’s data point. Last year the coverage blew previous low records out of the water, so to speak, and this year’s is still almost 2 standard deviations below the average of the past 30 years (1981 – 2010), and ranks as the 4th or 5th lowest coverage on record. If you want to get a clue, look at the graphs at Only the deluded, but more likely the deceptive would deny a gradual decrease in Arctic ice coverage of about 10% per decade for the last 30 years. (See in particular figure 3.)
      Cold fusion is not like Galileo’s telescope or Wegener’s drift. It’s much more like Blondlott’s N-rays, Fedyakin’s polywater, the alchemists’ gold from lead, Lorentz’s ether, Le Verrier’s planet vulcan, Popoff’s faith healing, L Ron Hubbard’s Xenu, Uri Geller’s bent spoon, Madoff’s Ponzi scheme, Agricola’s dowsing, Hahnemann’s homeopathy, Wakefield’s autism from vaccines, and a thousand other blind alleys, delusions, and scams.

      The consensus of experts has been famously wrong, but it remains the most likely approximation to the truth. And you’re not going to change it by citing past failures. As always, evidence is required. Galileo delivered. Rossi didn’t.

      • JordiHeguilor

        September 17, 2013 at 4:17 pm

        Popeye, thanks for taking the time to expand on well reasoned arguments instead of going for the sound bite like most of us here (I included) do.

      • GreenWin

        September 19, 2013 at 5:06 am

        Dear Popee, please excuse the intentional misspell of your pseudonym; it is a simple pleasure and IMHO, you fail to earn the good will of E.C. Segar, Popeye’s creator.

        While you are skilled at the precarious art of argumentation, (point – counterpoint) you fail to understand consciousness beyond simple human logic. To attempt to defend the empirical examples of “expert” failure is to defend the frailty of hubris. The facts are that in each and every example of “expert” hubris made, the experts were proved unequivocally wrong. Your, and your constituent fellows’ inability to accept the facts are revealing. Your transparent attempts to rewrite history are simply embarrassing.

        One need not study far in philosophy, sociology, psychology to learn that an inability to admit wrong is a marker for ignorance. You attempt in each of your counter points to declare victory for “expert” failure. This is an argument tantamont to an insanity plea: “Your honor, my client was not in a cogent state of mind when he declared the world to be flat!” Take for example your reference to alchemists – one of whom is the revered Fellow and President of the Royal Society, Sir Isaac Newton – too harrowed to admit his twenty year dalliance with secret alchemy studies. This blushing detail is like a discovery that skeptopath Johnnie Huizenga conducted secret cold fusion experiments in his closet; late at night under a pale moon.

        “The consensus of experts has been famously wrong, but it remains the most likely approximation to the [Mary Yugo] truth.”

        Educated, perceptive people know full well that sheeple and their peer-pressured opinions do not make truth. Far more interesting than the geo-political disruption LENR brings to planet Earth, is its illuminated universal lesson; that infinite intelligence may choose to manifest through the most unlikely of vessels.

        This is, in my opinion the most wonderful element of the cold fusion tale. Popee, be assured, a vessel of this making is well beyond the comprehension of your “experts.” And on behalf of our “in-expert” community, I wish you Peace and Good Will.

        • popeye

          September 19, 2013 at 4:07 pm

          While you are skilled at the precarious art of argumentation,

          …and you in the art of psychobabble bullshit.

          To attempt to defend the empirical examples of “expert” failure is to defend the frailty of hubris.

          What do mean by “defend the empirical examples of expert failure”? If that’s what you think I was doing, you simply did not understand the point, which is not surprising, since you clearly understand so little of anything related to science.

          I was trying to show why those examples do not inform the question of the reality of cold fusion any more than they do any other claims that are rejected by expert consensus, like bigfoot, space aliens, or mental telepathy.

          Furthermore, I was exposing the contradiction in the most common argument for the reality of cold fusion, namely endorsement from and participation of *experts*.

          You did not address either of those points.

          The facts are that in each and every example of “expert” hubris made, the experts were proved unequivocally wrong.

          *The* experts? In nearly every case, some experts were proven wrong by other experts. Big deal. It’s the nature of research and science.

          Obviously, in some cases, the expert consensus has been wrong, but when the evidence is strong, the consensus changes quickly. In the most fundamental and revolutionary changes — Copernican solar system, evolution, relativity, quantum mechanics — mainstream science accepted the new view almost as quickly as it was developed because the evidence was strong. The holdouts, especially in the first two, were religious, not scientific.

          1989 proved the world is open — even hungry — for something like cold fusion. Even Morrison, who would become one of the most informed and effective critics, wrote gushingly about the possibilities in the first weeks. The rejection came after careful scrutiny, when the evidence simply did not stand up. And the situation has not improved in 24 years.

          The consensus can be wrong, but that doesn’t mean, as you seem to argue, that any claim that contradicts the consensus must therefore be right. And no amount of psychobabble will make it right.

          Your, and your constituent fellows’ inability to accept the facts are revealing. Your transparent attempts to rewrite history are simply embarrassing.

          Could you be specific? I agreed that the expert consensus has been wrong. What did I say that you think is contrary to history?

          One need not study far in philosophy, sociology, psychology to learn that an inability to admit wrong is a marker for ignorance.

          You only need a pulse to reach that conclusion. What’s your point?

          You attempt in each of your counter points to declare victory for “expert” failure.

          Nonsense. On flight and space travel, the expert skeptics (Lord Kelvin on flight) clearly lost, but they did not represent expert consensus. On the Copernican solar system and plate tectonics, the consensus clearly lost, but it was other experts that won, and the consensus followed. In both cases, it was evidence that held sway, and not philosophical discourse on the frailty of hubris.

          In all cases, I declared victory for evidence, and for science, and argued the very clear difference between those cases and cold fusion, which resembles much more closely, a long list of delusions in the history of science.

          Take for example your reference to alchemists – one of whom is the revered Fellow and President of the Royal Society, Sir Isaac Newton – too harrowed to admit his twenty year dalliance with secret alchemy studies.

          Again, I am unable to follow. What does this say about cold fusion? Are you suggesting Newton’s dalliance with alchemy takes away from the brilliance of his Principia? Or that his stature means alchemy is vindicated? Speak your mind, man. Your argument seems to boil down to: scientists have made mistakes, ergo cold fusion. Your sort of wooly thinking is the reason cold fusion still has a following.

          “The consensus of experts has been famously wrong, but it remains the most likely approximation to the [Mary Yugo] truth.”
          Educated, perceptive people know full well that sheeple and their peer-pressured opinions do not make truth.

          Right, but that doesn’t contradict what I said.

          • GreenWin

            September 20, 2013 at 7:03 am

            Popee, you are either too narrowly programmed or unable to adapt to dialog not reliant on binary logic. I shall leave you defending your failed consensus – which is not science.

  16. LCD

    September 16, 2013 at 2:55 pm

    Well it looks like Rossi has settled into a (new?) R&D phase and there is less and less talk of production which makes me conclude as i have done in the past that HE DOES NOT HAVE A COMMERCIAL READY PRODUCT.

    Apparently he has convinced enough people that his technology has promise and he’ll continue to work on it, but just like the Brioullin’s and the BLP’s it will probably remain in this phase for years to come.

    Your better off following Mizzou for progress on LENR.

    • BigWillyJohnson

      September 16, 2013 at 3:29 pm

      Yea definitely LCD. Rossi’s current behavior seems to point to “non commercial ready” LENR… Surely it is not the case that he had jack shtine all along. Im sure he is just posturing to keep all his “competitors” at bay, (the other scammers on PESN?) and not that he doesn’t have shit and the only people who believe he does are gullible mush brained boobs.

      • GreenWin

        September 17, 2013 at 2:14 am

        “…mush brained boobs.” In keeping with the sophism here, would not these be of some comfort to a frustrated skep??

        • BigWillyJohnson

          September 17, 2013 at 10:16 pm

          Mush boobs are a blessing to all my good pal and you know it.

          The frustrated skep: someone who doesn’t believe the lies of a liar so he get soooooooo mad!!!!!

          That me! And the carpet thing I told you about. Dont even get me staaahhhted on that tho.


          • GreenWin

            September 19, 2013 at 5:13 am

            Off topic Willy… watched the Sox whuppup on the Stankies yestaday! Sweep! Won’t we have fun sittin under the “free energy” night lights at Fenway, sippin a Sam A and wondering why there was eva a disagreement.


    • JNewman

      September 16, 2013 at 4:45 pm

      Well, I guess we are in a new phase of this little drama. Even the long-time stalwarts like LCD realize that Rossi has lied about lots of things all along (everyone except Harry Perini, presumably). But they still cling to the idea that Rossi has stumbled into world-changing technology nonetheless. I guess the great logical circle of Rossi real->LENR real->Rossi real->LENR real… is still unbroken. We’ll see what the mood is next year.

    • Shane D.

      September 16, 2013 at 5:07 pm


      It does appear so. That seems to be the path many in the field follow… claim their commercial product is near and then fail to meet their own timeline.

      Rossi is of course the most obvious. DGT also. But I also remember Piantellis assistant scientist saying last year their NicheEnergy was 4 months away from a market product. Dr. Miley’s Lenuco also indicated on the verge for some time. Then Global Energy Corp and their GeNie reactor. Lets also not forget BLP and their CHIT cell that was validated by many scientists, but here we sit well afterwards with no new announcement. Brillouin too… most likly their 2014 2.1 COP boiler will slip back to a later date.

      Why? I believe it has to to with the initial, understandable exuberance and excitement of replicating the FPE… followed by the sobering realities of the development phase where scaling, understanding the science, sustaining, reliability, certification, patent protection, association with “nuclear” and it’s regulatory baggage, association with “cold fusion”, yet most importantly -funding.

      Like waking up in the morning with a heck of a hangover from that great party last night and wishing like heck you wouldn’t have said what you said. It all sounded so good then, but now when sober… well.

      Of course, the skeptics see this through their one color prism as a huge scam or pseudo-science… So what else is new? But, to be honest I am very excited by what I see. The LENR industry is taking shape. The funding spigot is starting to open ever more. There is an influx of capable scientists and engineers. The commercial companies involved have begun to structure themselves along traditional business principles and are poised to grow when their product does reach maturity.

      Maybe the time-frame isn’t soon enough for us, but I really don’t think we have to wait too long for one of these groups to be first to market.

  17. General Zaroff

    September 16, 2013 at 5:24 pm

    Hello friends.

    I have decided to end my self-imposed exile from this site. At least until I get banned. Or bored again. Or until I get offended, I am quite sensitive.

    LCD, I like your Ransompw-style musings: “…which makes me conclude as i have done in the past that HE DOES NOT HAVE A COMMERCIAL READY PRODUCT.” Keep patting yourself on the back, you were right all along. None of the evidence points to a scam. But honestly, is this just the sort of thing that proud idiots tell themselves so that they don’t have to re-evaulate their own critical thinking skills?

    In other news, I found this quote over at e-catworld quite funny, and since I can’t post there, I thought I would discuss it here. Qutoing Andrea Rossi: “When the nickel melted I touched it with a finger and the finger ( left index, I am left handed) got burnt…”

    Now, I am not a well-read man, but from my limited experience with molten metal I seem to recall that it is usually very hot. Everyone here who has ever directly touched molten Nickel please raise the remnants of your hand? Anyone? I guess Kensington university didn’t offer a pretend course covering that material back when Rossi bought his PhD from them.

    • Dale G. Basgall

      September 16, 2013 at 6:27 pm

      General did the article the quote was in make any claims to the nickel melting within a Hot-Cat or outside the body of the hot-cat? If someone makes those statements in writing they must be true right!

      Anyway you would think someone so experienced with heat and powdered metal would have at least used a temp gun before touching molten metal soon after it melted down. It must be another crumb of information that is yet to be built upon.

      Silence may be a good indicator he actually has proven his method to someone with enough backing that they can silence him.

      As for the following of anyone in this newly energized field of LENR it seems a dead end right now. Our theory VPPF stopped when the baryon conservation breached as well as the coulomb barrier which is factual science well understood. So we took backstage and also studied theories from others and there is that “magic” that needs clarified in all the theories so it appears for fact that someday someone will hit the secret mix and come up with a formula to re produce LENR.

      It is amazing how people just give out money to the ones that need it to go forward in a science not discoverable by those types. It seems like a Cinderella story to me whereas LENR is setting quietly at home in nature producing fusion and the ugly fission sisters are doing everything they can to keep her home. When the right person comes along the glass slipper will fit and the ball is on…

      Even if Rossi had something real now, why would he begin to let us know the facts of it’s operations? Clearly in the past he was claiming it was all his and made statements we know for sure were directed to his capturing the LENR market by being “first to produce”. Is he there now with a product so close to being available to see and touch?

      Without a firm theory lacking a magical process or composition for confirming facts and constants there will be no products available using the LENR claimed reactions. How does anyone think that a Quantum Machine could come out of an accidental discovery or conglomeration of substance originating from disarray?

      • JKW

        September 17, 2013 at 2:26 am

        Dale, Dr. Rossi, according to his own post, was using a 4 V battery melting his potion in the cauldron with 3 Watts of power, when he burned his (sixth?) finger. To his credit, who would use a temp gun with an experiment like that?

    • JNewman

      September 16, 2013 at 6:28 pm

      Welcome back, General. Hope you enjoy listening to the sweet strains of the “none of these people ever come up with what they claim but if there is enough flaky and uncorroborated evidence, it must be real” symphony. It is being played again and again.

    • Shane D.

      September 16, 2013 at 6:57 pm

      Yeah right… People walk barefoot over a bed of smoldering coals all the time and their feet don’t melt.

      See your analytical skills haven’t improved during your sabbatical. Still hung up on Ransompw too.

      • General Zaroff

        September 16, 2013 at 7:30 pm

        Hello Shane,

        It is interesting that you allude to firewalking. Isn’t that something ancient religions used to test people’s fatih? I guess Rossi’s fans know all about those sorts of things. When you read Rossi’s other blurb at e-catworld about his duty to god and mankind does it give you a stiffy? You don’t have to answer that.

        As for being hung up on Ransompw, I would say that he and several of the other militant believers hold a special place in my heart. The school of LENR seems to attract a lot of students from the short bus, and I admire their perseverance in this whole Rossi affair.

        Now, as I said, I am sensitive. So please don’t belittle my analytical skills, let’s discuss this like gentlemen.

        • Tony2

          September 16, 2013 at 11:08 pm


          Hey, enough with the stiffy talk! I nailed that down with “a boner hard enough to cut glass”!

          But I also gave you big creds for “Il Douche”. Much better than my boner talk.

          Wow! It’s come (no pun intended) to this.

          I worked with a group at a pharma plant that was totally into sophomoric humor. They told me that:

          “Third grade was the best year of our lives”!


        • JKW

          September 17, 2013 at 4:35 am

          GZ, geez ease it off, what’s with the shrinkage and stuff? I think it resembles your mindset- living by the river and the environmental pollutants and stuff. Go green! The only way that might save your narrow view

    • GreenWin

      September 19, 2013 at 5:16 am

      General, there is still time. Your fans are enthused; swim the IGZ-2013 waters for fame and fortune.

      Hey, you could buy yourself a brand new van to live in!! God is good.

  18. GreenWin

    September 16, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    “The Japanese government is trying to reassure people it is on top of contaminated water leaks at the Fukushima nuclear power plant, after an official at the Tokyo Electric Power Company said the situation is “not under control.”

    Is it any wonder the Met Office and the IPCC experts are confused about the climate?? These self-anointed “experts” sound like doddering ole Johnnie Huizenga, incapable of confessing he was wrong about cold fusion.

    But Fukushima and the climate boondoggle are not as amusing as watching a former President of the United States GHW Bush, confirm Nelson Mandella’s death – then apologize and retract it! Why? Apparently Mandela’s loving family are fighting over TV rights to the funeral.

    The scuttle on Rossi is, the democrats in Cali are putting together a new “Sustainable Energy” campaign featuring LENR/cold fusion and E-Cat. Hmmm, all that lobbying money in play. The Fall season is shaping up to be quite interesting.

    • powerpete

      September 17, 2013 at 9:59 am

      This is a fun read about “Self-anointed experts”:

      • GreenWin

        September 20, 2013 at 7:34 am

        Thanks pete. The only experts that are embarrassed today are those engaged in failed campaigns like hot fusion and AGW. Those at MIT, CalTech etc. who condemned F&P are self-anointed embarrassments.

        “Nobody ever figures out what life is all about, and it doesn’t matter. … Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.”
        Richard Feynman

  19. Al Potenza

    September 16, 2013 at 9:33 pm

    “The scuttle on Rossi is, the democrats in Cali are putting together a new “Sustainable Energy” campaign featuring LENR/cold fusion and E-Cat. Hmmm, all that lobbying money in play. The Fall season is shaping up to be quite interesting.”

    ROTFWL! The potent stench of bulldokey fills the room whenever GW opens his/her mouth/keyboard.

    Pure bullshit. Nobody with brains will ever “feature” the “E-cat”. It’s a figment of Rossi’s crooked imagination. Even state legislators are not dumb enough to consider it.

  20. GreenWin

    September 17, 2013 at 12:24 am

    Mary, “I’m a pretend scientist” Yugo says!

    • JNewman

      September 17, 2013 at 12:48 am

      And says it in response to GW, “I make up crap out of thin air” pontificator. I do applaud your gall for disparaging anything said by another poster. Talk about attacking from a weak position!

      • GreenWin

        September 17, 2013 at 2:09 am

        JN while I respect you, I will not do your research for you. Dig down a little and discover where PG&E is quietly endorsing LENR.

        • JNewman

          September 17, 2013 at 3:18 am

          You know, GW, you are astonishingly clueless about the art of convincing people of anything. Every time you throw out a bunch of bullshit about something and people challenge you, you say you don’t want to do their homework for them. Fine. Instead of “doing this research”, I will safely assume that you are full of it as usual. I’m content with that and, apparently, so are you. So why bother posting this crap in the first place?

          • GreenWin

            September 22, 2013 at 4:19 am

            JN, there is in your response a telling; is there a back channel your organization has not analyzed? I can assure you JN, there are many channels you have little idea exist.

            For grins, an old edict: “Resistance is futile.”

  21. JKW

    September 17, 2013 at 1:15 am

    A quick read through the recent comments made my brain surge… You might call it an Eureca moment. You will than me later.
    A condom with a diamond tip to be worn during religious ceremonies!
    I’m putting up a website to collect orders….

    • JKW

      September 17, 2013 at 1:22 am

      It’s a teaser, but..
      Guys, what’s up with this forum, have we gone so low?!

    • Shane D.

      September 17, 2013 at 2:09 am

      The skeptic brat boys gone wild day on ECNs.

      As a believer I am not impressed in the least. That, by the way, is an understatement. Sophomoric comes to mind. Immature yes. Crass for sure. Off the mark… maybe. We shall see.

      If some of you are actually in the scientific establishment as claimed, then I am starting to believe that we are in big trouble.

      • JKW

        September 17, 2013 at 4:53 am

        Shane, yes, but what do you get on the other side? Roger Bird? George? Acland? Then there is Zaroff with his weight and sea… I think I need a long vacation. Sea yall.

        • Shane D.

          September 17, 2013 at 5:26 am


          Serious dialogue. Maybe wishful thinking, but each of us comes with sincerity and honesty in our beliefs.

          Skeptics, from what I mostly read, come as bully boys. Few of whom are serious in debating the issues while most are here to mock us believers…whom they view as fools.

          Believers do see the weakness of our stance (here at least), while only a few skeptics here do.

          That said… It is still somewhat sporting for us believers to engage the skeptics here. Better then watching television and much less challenging.

          • CuriousChris

            September 17, 2013 at 6:35 am

            “Serious dialogue. Maybe wishful thinking, but each of us comes with sincerity and honesty in our beliefs.”

            This is where the core of problem lies. Believers use faith. Rather than do the research, they often throw out the latest regurgitated rubbish from Rossi or Defkalion, never actually considering to do the hard yards and checking the basis of those claims.

            There is no room for a belief system in scientific endeavour. Its fine to have theories in fact its mandatory and believing you are right is a good thing, but you must be able to back up your assertions with more than just “I believe it is so”. You need to be able to argue intelligently why you believe it is so. Oh and that doesn’t mean quoting Levi as proof of Rossi.

            Sceptics make a habit of following up their assertions with some form of validation. That is remarkably lacking from the believer camp.

            As far as abuse goes you are showing the same blinkered approach to who throws around abuse as you do to the evidence or lack thereof.

            You ignore that which you don’t want to see.

          • JNewman

            September 17, 2013 at 1:46 pm

            Shane, I echo what CC says. Most skeptics would love to engage in serious dialogue. The problem is that believers won’t do it. Whenever I ask a specific question (e.g. What are the necessary phenomena that have to take place in order for one to conclude there is LENR taking place? Or what are the qualifications of the authors of the Levi paper? Or what is the evidence that there is progress in LENR? etc..) I never get an answer from any of you. Silence. The only dialogue provided by believers is that skeptics are paid shills, evil people, obsessive, etc. It is no wonder that things deteriorate into abuse. If you want serious dialogue, then you have to defend your beliefs not simply attack your opponents.

  22. Al Potenza

    September 17, 2013 at 7:39 pm

    Let’s try some serious dialogue and see how far it gets us:

    – if Rossi has sold dozens of “megawatt plants”, why does he need more “indipendent investigations” on how they work? Can’t he ask his customers? Can’t even ONE customer show the plant to the public? To a scientific committee ending forever the battle about the reality of cold fusion?

    – where is Rossi stashing his million unit robotic factory these days? why has nobody ever reported working on it or seeing it? why are there no official records of it?

    – if Defkalion had 10kW reactors, as they claimed in their forum, as far back as mid 2011, and if these incorporated high temperature coolant, built in flow calorimetry, high COP, and high reliability following months of tests of dozens of reactors, why do they show a lame piece of junk to ICCF18 and Mats Lewan in 2013?

    – where are the Greek government tests Defkalion assured us were in progress in 2011? The ones they gave the government agencies working reactors for? Which agencies were those again and why did the inquiry from a member of the Greek Parliament result in an official denial that any such reactors were ever received, much less tested?

    – Why is it that cold fusion developers always cite anonymous customers? Why does Defkalion claim that they work with some of the world’s largest companies but they can’t name one? Look at Bloom as an example of a competing technology. They name their customers (Google, eBay and so on). Why can’t a single cold fusion proponent do the same?

    – Why is it that Rossi chooses complete unknowns with questionable experience, little or no previous research papers in a relevant field, and no formal university endorsement of their tests when trying to qualify the ecat? Does he really think prestigious universities and test labs would not bend over backwards to accommodate his reasonable security and secrecy requirements if he asked them to do the tests?

    And Rossi really has to search for a company or institution to give away free heat to? In Nordic countries where everyone expends huge amounts for heating fuel every freezing miserable winter?

    – Does McKubre really think that it is possible to derive energy from compressing and sparking noble gases? Where did he get his chemistry and nuclear physics information from? From some diploma mill like the one Rossi used?

    – Why can’t Brillouin be troubled to correct obvious spelling errors of common words in their graph/chart in which they reveal their supposed core technology to the world? The errors still appear on the pages of PESN.

    – more important, why does Brillouin not get independent testing and evaluation of what they claim is a high power reactor expected to be on the consumer or industrial market as soon as a year from now? Surely, if that’s true, they must be in final testing stages. Where are the tests? Certainly the results are not limited to the lame unsupported and unverified vague charts and graphs the company has published some time ago?

    – Why does George Miley claim sustained LENR kilowatts and then give data for a few watts for a few minutes at all the meetings he attends. And why are even those papers unpublished?

    – Why does the so-called MIT class (from Hagelstein and Swartz) which is not really officially an MIT for credit class, convince nobody that their version of cold fusion is real? How long have they been giving this “class” now? Why is there no duplication, no credible papers, and no improvement on the technology by all the people who took the class?

    – Why does the Celani reproduction project (MFMP) keep changing from one gadget which drifts and won’t calibrate consistently, to another which does the same, without apparent end? Why don’t they hire someone with a heat transfer background who can actually do calorimetry? Why do they keep struggling like well meaning but completely inept science fair project students? Why don’t they talk to Celani about getting a decent number of wires (10? 30? 100?) to magnify the signal to noise ration hugely until they can tell what it is they are doing?

    OK believers, discuss THOSE topics instead of the identity and funding sources of skeptics, and the consequences to society of what is at present non-existent technology, and in GW’s case, all sorts of completely irrelevant and often inaccurate assertions about vaguely related or unrelated scientific fields.

    But you won’t do that, will you?

    Instead, maybe you’ll read Sterling Allan’s latest raving about what seems to be an empty box. See PESN for details.

  23. Al Potenza

    September 17, 2013 at 8:19 pm

    Of course, it is difficult to have any serious dialogue about Rossi when he is such an obvious idiot:

    Andrea Rossi
    September 15th, 2013 at 1:58 PM

    Italo R.:
    1- Of course yes: the Team I am working with is a team that already dedicate enormous resources upon targets inspired by the sense of duty toward God and Mankind. The motto of the USA is “In God we trust” and we are working ( vibrating) within this field of energy as particles in a Universe in evolution.
    2- “Memory Book”? I hope to rely on memories as late as possible. When a man seats on his own “memories” means has nothing to future anymore ( “to future”: does not exist as a verb, but works well! It is a “virtual verb”).
    Warm Regards,

    ROTFWL!! (from Rossi’s idiotic and misnamed blog, JONP)

    • Dale G. Basgall

      September 17, 2013 at 11:29 pm

      Well Al it appears Rossi may be getting real close to busting out the real thing here.

      In his answer you posted “( vibrating)” and (virtual), that’s an indicator to me he is onto something like the magic of vibrating particles like Feynman states in his u-tubes.

      Virtual is also a word I picked out because my friend and I think a virtual particle is the potential and a probability exists of a fusion.

      A virtual particle and a heavy quark wow, magic happens in that scenario. Anyway time will tell who had what in this adventure LENR. Kind of exciting though just to think of all the new gismos you could make using the factual formula to the science of LENR.

      In your analogy you make points referring to why all those who claim something have not produced a product which is obvious, I can find no products claiming LENR that are for sale and deliverable today.

      Could they all be holding back just because the discovery is so huge and factual? Are they not able to handle the after disclosure and offering the product for sale?

      “No” is the answer, there is no formula to re-produce cold fusion or LENR, and without that who could consider any product useful. There is no way anyone would spend the money on a product i.e. manufacture, that could be advanced without a firm recipe to duplicate.

    • Andy Kumar

      September 18, 2013 at 1:19 am

      2- “Memory Book”? I hope to rely on memories as late as possible. When a man seats on his own “memories” means has nothing to future anymore ( “to future”: does not exist as a verb, but works well! It is a “virtual verb”).

      TO FUTURE as a verb!

      Finally, Rossi has given up on learning English and is creating his own ITAnglish. Man is a creative genius. GW, you better watch out. He is stepping on your territory.


      • GreenWin

        September 19, 2013 at 3:25 am

        Andy, I concur, Dottore’s poor Inglish appears to be a handler’s invention. To their credit however, it has worked to both inform and retain plausible deniability – a tenet of some import to the good, bad, and ugly.

        As for Dottore intruding on my territory – no, I am schooled in the arts. Unless you place the sciences beneath the umbrella of art, Dottore’s steps are not material. 🙂

        • Frank

          September 19, 2013 at 1:23 pm

          no, I am schooled in the arts.

          That explains a lot …

  24. Shane D.

    September 17, 2013 at 9:47 pm

    We already had a serious dialogue on the Rossi/DGT things you mention, and the believers here pretty much agreed that they had been blowing smoke up our wazoo. There are no factories, no commercial ready products, etc. You win.

    The others you mention:

    I don’t know.

    I don’t know.

    I don’t know that one either.

    And no also.

    Heading out for trip. Thanks Al, for the serious dialogue. I think we finally made some headway.

    • JNewman

      September 17, 2013 at 9:58 pm

      Sheesh. So can any believer-type explain why they believe any of this stuff? The answer always seems to be something along the lines of that there is so much smoke that there must be fire. But not a single example of “smoke” is actually defensible. The problem is that no matter how much poop you shovel out of a barn, you still can’t put it together to make a pony.

      • GreenWin

        September 19, 2013 at 3:49 am

        JN, you are right. As long as one sees only “poop” they suffer from inattentional blindness. They also subscribe to the following exclamation:

        “Life is a shit sandwich. The more bread you have, the less shit you eat.”

        All rather fecesious don’t you think?

        • JNewman

          September 19, 2013 at 5:25 am

          If one can look at the poop and see a pony, at least they can be happy. Just don’t try to ride it anywhere. That would be a case of fecal irresponsibility..

    • CuriousChris

      September 17, 2013 at 11:36 pm

      “I think we finally made some headway.”

      The headway you mentioned is you as a believer actually acknowledging the issues. Congrats. The stuff Al raised has been raised hundreds of times by many people in a dozen different ways.

      I know its is very desirable for something like lenr to come along. Just because something is desirable doesn’t make it possible. That’s the sad reality.

      Can you imagine a world where teleporting is real. where objects (not necessarily living) can be sent from one place to another at the speed of light. Hmm massive problems with that.

      Fantastic but not in our lifetimes(if ever).

      Or lets pick a seemingly simpler one. A world where greed doesn’t exist. Where people on average do just one nice thing a day for someone they do not know.

      Imagine that place! Teleportation is more likely.

      • GreenWin

        September 19, 2013 at 3:44 am

        Chris, am I mistaken or do I detect an element of possibility in your tone?

        “You may say I’m a dreamer
        But I’m not the only one
        I hope one day you will join us
        And the world, will live as one.”

        Imagine, John Lennon

  25. Frank

    September 18, 2013 at 9:20 am

    Some of you might recall Rossi’s announcement to publish the script of the “intense” mathematic lessons he got from Forcardi, and which has been extremely useful for his work

    Andrea Rossi
    August 29th, 2013 at 1:27 PM
    To the Readers:
    We of the JoNP decided to publish in September in the Journal of Nuclear Physics the lessons of Mathematics that I got from Prof. Sergio Focardi four years ago, when I asked him mathematical help for theoretical calculations. He gave me few very intense and useful pages that have been extremely useful to my work, so I hope these pages will be useful to all our Readers studying LENR.
    My mentor and friend Sergio Focardi will continue to teach also from where he is now to our community.
    Warm Regards,

    If someone expected to get some extraordinary academic papers about complex mathematics or abstract algebra – well, he will be disappointed now. Rossi has yet published on his “scientific” JONP a very common and basic collection of math formulas:
    “Dottore/ingegnere” Rossi must have missed some math-lectures in Kensington, why else would he have needed those basic private lessons from Focardi 😉

    • Thicket

      September 18, 2013 at 2:42 pm

      Too funny. This is very basic stuff. It looks like it’s out of a high school text, or basic first year university. It covers the gamut of trigonometry, functions, logarithms, Venn diagrams, factorials, statistics, matrices, vectors, algebra and calculus. About the only thing missing from what I learned in high school is polar coordinates. There’s so much information crammed into a few pages that it looks like a condensed ‘Mathematics for Dummies’

      It probably looks impressive to folks who don’t know fundamental mathematics.

      I thought Rossi was supposed to be an engineer! He had to get Focardi to teach him this stuff?!

      • Dale G. Basgall

        September 18, 2013 at 3:39 pm

        Add that to the “plumbers nightmare” looking apparatus in the first videos. What math does it take to purchase copper pipe and a few fittings, electricity, water added and presto absolute mathematical genius, steam.

        • Al Potenza

          September 18, 2013 at 5:56 pm

          Dale, the “genius” is in deliberately falsifying the measurement method, testing it, and then bamboozling such worthies as Levi, Kullander, Essen, Lewan and more recently, the seven blind mice. The genius is in varying the method each time and in not getting caught.

          I’d say Rossi is pretty remarkable. He also knows how to choose the most gullible people and how to keep clever folks (Quantum/Australia and NASA) from testing– the ecat just doesn’t work when they are trying to test it.

          So far he seems to have pulled the wool over the eyes of that Swedish company (Elsfork? sp?).

          I think he will get caught cheating eventually but so far he has escaped definitive evidence of it. That’s some sort of genius!

          • GreenWin

            September 19, 2013 at 3:16 am

            We find few textbook cases to rival this of Mary Yugos – the single other in her realm to know the conspiracy of Andrea Rossi and his pack of not-as-clever-as-Mary rubes:

            “Narcissistic personality disorder is a condition in which people have an excessive sense of self-importance, an extreme preoccupation with themselves, and lack of empathy for others.”

            Friends, you really should read this link:


          • Al Potenza

            September 19, 2013 at 6:55 pm

            Greenwin is totally delusional, as usual. Defkalion and Rossi are moribund. They do the same lame crap over and over now but mostly, they do nothing.

            Meanwhile, here is some more jawboning from Rossi:

            “Andrea Rossi
            September 18th, 2013 at 10:30 AM

            Frank Acland:
            No, the third party validation is, obviously, totally indipendent from our internal reports. As I said the tests are made upon two different plants, in two different locations and there are no contacts between the two. I am working, as the chief scientist, to make the R&D upon one plant, in one place, while the 3rd indipendent party works in another place. I do not know when and where the 3rd indipendent party will publish.
            Warm Regards,

            Unnamed people working in unnamed plants will publish in unnamed journals at an unknown time! Wow. That is certainly headline material for the main line press, isn’t it, GW?

            Also, it seems Rossi can not afford a speling czechker.

      • Al Potenza

        September 18, 2013 at 5:57 pm

        Thicket, you had vector analysis in high school? I didn’t have that bit of entertainment until well into university studies. It accompanied intermediate calculus.

        • Thicket

          September 18, 2013 at 6:17 pm

          I come from the old days when they still had Grade 13 in Ontario. Lots of stuff was covered that is now in first/second year university.

          We had two math classes a day. Math ‘A’ had two text books – Functions. Calculus. Math ‘B’ also had two text books – Probability and Statistics. Vectors and Matrices. (I still shudder remembering inverting matrices using a clunky calculator that went to 24 significant digits.)

          Trigonometry and logarithms were in Grade 12. Algebra was Grade 10/11.

          • General Zaroff

            September 18, 2013 at 7:06 pm

            24 significant digits, eh Thicket? Was sniffing glue encouraged way back then?

            I was hoping Focardi’s notes would shed some light on the inverse scattering transform, oh well.

  26. Thicket

    September 18, 2013 at 10:42 pm

    I kept the co-eds busy fending off my 24 digits.

    • Asterix

      September 19, 2013 at 6:44 pm

      “To 24 places or digits” might be better. Significance is determined by the computation (and also the data) performed. It’s simple to perform calculation to 24 places starting with 24 significant digits and having no significant digits as a result; i.e., the result is garbage.

  27. BigWillyJohnson

    September 19, 2013 at 3:41 pm


    From above^

    I am not a big baseball fan but i guess by default I am a Red sox fan. Glad to hear they are doing well and that it was a good game.

    I agree that once we are under ecat/papp/urine generator/smart scarecrow lights life will be good and hopefully we can all toast using a Sam ale of our choosing.

    Speaking of. A few weeks ago i enlisted some chaps of mine to help paint my abode. Of course i provided cold beverages. I stumbled upon canned Sam summer ale! I had never seen before so i bought them. Let me tell you bro, they were delicious. They tasted slightly different from their glass variant. The painting came out decent.

    Well good luck to the red sox. I am a closet Dallas cowboys fan… They are the worst. Years and years of disappointment behind me and hopefully in front of me.


    • GreenWin

      September 20, 2013 at 8:40 pm

      Willy, you do have a considerable talent in cheer leading I recall. Not you… the Cowboys. I shall look for a can of Sam summer – still plenty warm where I am.

  28. R Hopeful

    September 19, 2013 at 3:54 pm

    This a detailed account of Dennis Cravens demonstration at NiWeek:

    “It wasn’t designed to be a science experiment. It wasn’t designed for exacting measurements. It was designed just to make people realize there must be some effect we don’t understand going on inside the simple brass balls”

    And indeed it does make you think. At least there are competent people trying to make LENR work. It is disappointing that the energy generation is so small.

    Unlike the other characters, who promise Heaven on Earth, Craven’s modest results are credible. But there is no indication that the technique can be scaled up. Cravens said in Vortex that we will no longer pursue this approach.

    I’m just hoping that, as happened with many other promising technologies, somebody will find a way.

    • Al Potenza

      September 19, 2013 at 6:51 pm

      It makes you think? The main thing it makes me think about is that Cravens is playing silly games and that he most likely has some sort of measurement error. I know of no evidence that what he has is a nuclear reaction. Do you?

    • Dale G. Basgall

      September 19, 2013 at 7:39 pm

      R- Isn’t there a monkey with brass balls, I wonder how that got started. I also question what happened to the old thermodynamics issues? Are they out the window now in 2013? Talking about society and their issues needing more and more power every time a new person is born. You can see easily why the rage is on to defeat past physics understanding.

      If we can’t figure it out with conventionally understood laws of nature then the prospects of wizards and their demonstrations become focus. Atlantian technology is what it really is and things like that are just to useful to be easily discovered by the regular creative individual. Mystery is most likely more interesting than fact for entertainment so let’s ask some space cadets to figure LENR out and let us know how it is supposed to operate.

      And by the way I couldn’t resist the opportunity to post with the amount of posts, the number will probably give some posters the opportunity to get chimed in, last time it did. I broke the ice so post on…

      • BigWillyJohnson

        September 19, 2013 at 8:40 pm

        Mr Dale,

        Try to be lest poetic and simpler in your writing. It is extremely hard for me to read your comments.

        Perhaps others are better readers than humble I.

        Just wanted to let you know

        • JKW

          September 20, 2013 at 4:32 am

          I love Dale’s style. It’s flowing mind stream. I don’t think I could ever accomplish this. It’s an art. I mean it. Dale, please be on.

    • popeye

      September 20, 2013 at 6:30 am

      A few thoughts about Cravens demo:

      1) He emphasizes that there is no power input, but it takes power to keep the bead bath at 80C — probably tens of watts. He claims the brass ball produced a watt or so, so the COP is less than 1.1.

      2) Now, I realize that if the ball is hotter than the bath, you don’t need to know the power required to maintain the bath temperature to conclude the ball is generating its own power. In fact, I suggested way back that Rossi should’ve measured the temperature of his cylinder core and showed it to be higher than that of his heater. But if it really is generating its own heat, why the need for the bath? Presumably it limits heat loss, and so maintains the temperature above 80C, but there are other ways to do that without thermal input. SImply insulate it well, and then use controlled water cooling. Why does LENR always need an external power source?

      3) He said one person asked to measure the TC resistance directly, but I would have liked to put mercury thermometers through a hole in the balls, and then swap them. Not that I think he simply rigged one thermocouple, but still it would be nice to rule it out.

      4) Such a stable output seems inconsistent with the usual claims of unreliability and instability as excuses for the failure to develop practical applications. If nuclear reactions are that easy to initiate and control, why *not* perform a “science experiment”, with “exacting measurements” to prove cold fusion, rather than “make people think just perhaps cold fusion might be possible”? Why is he abandoning the experiment, instead of developing a product? Could it be because when he makes exacting measurements, it doesn’t look so nuclear anymore? Could it be because when he tries to develop a practical application, it doesn’t work?

      5) One watt for 4 days represents the energy content of about 8 grams of gasoline (plus the necessary oxygen needed to burn it). Not that he used gasoline (it would smell), but it indicates the energy density is well within the chemical range. That level of heat can hardly be considered evidence of nuclear reactions. He cut it in half to exclude a battery as the energy source, but the electrical energy density of the best battery is a fraction of the thermal energy density of chemical fuel. Cutting it in half in no way excludes the possibility of a chemical source for the heat.

      6) The discussion of theory is laughably simplistic. The fire alarm metaphor misses the point of a strong repulsive force. And I suspect the wave nature of sub-atomic particles has occurred to the theorists who are nevertheless skeptical of cold fusion. After all, even in a plasma, at 100 million degrees, fusion requires tunneling, a strictly non-classical phenomenon, based on the wave nature of particles.

      • CuriousChris

        September 20, 2013 at 1:00 pm

        You are too kind popeye.

        The brass balls are sitting in a heat bath.

        How hard would it be to ensure one side of the bath is hotter than the other? nothing more then a couple extra loops of heating wire under the hot ball.

        His motives are the most suspect. He`wants to raise interest. What does that mean?

        If he wants to raise interest then he just needs to prove he can initiate LENR.

        Instead he plays street magician. under which cup is the lenr ball.

        • joshua cude

          September 20, 2013 at 8:09 pm

          It’s may be as simple as temperature gradient in the beads, but I think the risk of being exposed would be pretty high. And after all, he’s doesn’t appear to be in it for investment. If he’s pulling a fast one, my guess it’s because he sincerely believes in cold fusion — a big part of his efforts for some time — and feels like a prosecutor certain of someone’s guilt, and not above breaking a rule or two to bring proper attention to it, sure in his heart that such attention will vindicate his belief in the end.

        • Donald Rangle

          September 21, 2013 at 9:36 am

          It may be as simple as temperature gradient in the beads, but the risk of being exposed would be pretty high. And after all, he’s doesn’t appear to be in it for investment. If he’s pulling a fast one, maybe it’s because he sincerely believes in cold fusion — a big part of his efforts for some time — and feels like a prosecutor certain of someone’s guilt, and not above breaking a rule or two to bring proper attention to it, sure in his heart that such attention will vindicate his belief — the end justifies the means.

          • CuriousChris

            September 22, 2013 at 11:41 am

            They said Rossi wasn’t in it for the investment 😉

    • R Hopeful

      September 20, 2013 at 4:03 pm

      To all the critics, you are right that if Dennis wanted to cheat he could. Frankly, on any experiment you can find ways to cheat. You have to form your own opinion as to whether the author is trustworthy.

      It takes balls to lie to the face of a lot of people. I think Rossi could have the balls, but it is a rare skill. You could assume that we have uncovered the top occupation field for lying scoundrels -outside of government-, but that sounds unlikely.

      Answering to some of the points of contention that you raise.

      The aluminum bed baths are a robust replacement for water and oil baths -this is not a gimmick.

      According to the report somebody measured the resistance of both thermistors directly. Of course it is impossible to open the balls to insert a thermometer inside because they were holding hydrogen under slight pressure. Frankly, I think it is silly to argue about whether a mercury thermometer is more trustworthy or not: there will always be a way to potentially falsify the measurements.

      There is a lot of power needed to heat the bath, but that is not the point. The point is that one of the spheres is generating power -0.5MJ during the 5 days of the experiment by my account, equivalent to 150 grams of gunpowder burning. Note that the ball was empty when they cut it open -there was no chemical fuel inside.

      About the merits of the theory, remember that it is very hard to go from the basic principles of physics -such as the quantum mechanics equations- to engineering solutions -such as a laser. The coulomb repulsion force is well understood in a fairly uniform plasma, because the solutions to the equations are simple. Here there is a phenomenon which depends on the behavior of particles in the presence of very small structures. That configuration is not well understood. I think the theorists are just waving their hands at this point.

      • Donald Rangle

        September 21, 2013 at 9:29 am

        R Hopeful wrote:

        To all the critics, you are right that if Dennis wanted to cheat he could. Frankly, on any experiment you can find ways to cheat. You have to form your own opinion as to whether the author is trustworthy.

        No. You have to be able to test the claim independent of the claimant. That’s why no extraordinary claim like this will be taken seriously until it can be tested by anyone. Not Rossi’s, not DFK’s, not Craven’s. When Mueller and Bednorz announced high temperature superconductivity, anyone could make the same ceramic and verify the claim. Not long after, it became a classroom demonstration. It’s difficult to cheat on a claim like that.

        Why doesn’t Craven offer his balls for testing by anyone else, with suitable controls to prevent tampering?

        It takes balls to lie to the face of a lot of people. I think Rossi could have the balls, but it is a rare skill. You could assume that we have uncovered the top occupation field for lying scoundrels -outside of government-, but that sounds unlikely.

        I don’t know if he’s lying or if his combination of materials is chemically exothermic, or what. All I know is that he has made an extraordinary claim, and has not provided evidence for it, and admits as much. Neither does he provide access to others to test his claims. If he were right, and it were proven, he would become a celebrity, whereas he is now likely to retire a nobody.

        According to the report somebody measured the resistance of both thermistors directly.

        But the thermistors could have been rigged.

        Of course it is impossible to open the balls to insert a thermometer inside because they were holding hydrogen under slight pressure.

        To open them on-site, yes, but Cravens could have provided a way to insert a thermometer without breaking seals ahead of time, in order to exclude the possibility of a rigged thermometer.

        Frankly, I think it is silly to argue about whether a mercury thermometer is more trustworthy or not: there will always be a way to potentially falsify the measurements.

        The point was to have thermometers that could be easily swapped, and even better if they’re provided by the observer. If the same ball read higher both ways, under the control of the observer only, that would be difficult to falsify. Mercury thermometers are good enough to see a 4C difference, and are the simplest for this purpose.

        There is a lot of power needed to heat the bath, but that is not the point.

        Well, they can’t claim no input power is needed, if input power is needed. It’s really no different from Rossi using resistive heater in his ecat. The only difference is that Cravens measures the ball temperature directly. That’s definitely better, but there’s still power needed in that experiment.

        The point is that one of the spheres is generating power

        Yes, I got that, and said as much, assuming the observations are correct.

        -0.5MJ during the 5 days of the experiment by my account,

        Sunday to Thursday is 4 days, give or take, so I got .345 MJ, but there might be another 8 hours bringing it to 0.4MJ.

        equivalent to 150 grams of gunpowder burning.

        0.4 MJ is 100g of TNT or thermite, 10 g gasoline or 20 g alcohol, along with an oxygen candle of some sort. But we’re in agreement that the energy density claimed is well within the range of chemical fuels, and therefore there is no evidence for nuclear reactions.

        Note that the ball was empty when they cut it open -there was no chemical fuel inside.

        Well, they didn’t show a picture, and they didn’t say it was empty (quite the contrary). They said there was no battery or hydrocarbon fuel. But given the small amount of fuel needed, I can’t see that cutting it in half shows the absence of fuel.

        About the merits of the theory, remember that it is very hard to go from the basic principles of physics -such as the quantum mechanics equations- to engineering solutions -such as a laser. The coulomb repulsion force is well understood in a fairly uniform plasma, because the solutions to the equations are simple. Here there is a phenomenon which depends on the behavior of particles in the presence of very small structures. That configuration is not well understood. I think the theorists are just waving their hands at this point.

        But what people seem to ignore is that nuclear reactions have been studied to death in the solid state. They were discovered in the solid state, fission reactors use solid state, radioisotope thermoelectric generators in space ships are solids, and understood to exacting detail.

        And the kicker is that hydrogen fusion in metal hydrides has been studied carefully for weapons purposes, and for commercial neutron sources which exploit hydrogen fusion. In all those studies, chemical influence on nuclear reactions is extremely small, and well-understood where it is observed.

        And with P&F claims, a lot of theoretical work was done to discover ways to reduce the Coulomb barrier. None has been found, except by making neutrons, which has an even higher barrier. That doesn’t mean it can’t happen, but it means the claims are extraordinary, and so extraordinary evidence as robust as the evidence that says it should not happen is needed for them to be taken seriously. Cravens’ evidence is not even ordinary.

        • R Hopeful

          September 21, 2013 at 4:01 pm

          Regarding the potential use of chemical fuel, this is the original account of the time when the empty spheres were cut open, in front of witnesses:

          So you have a significant amount of energy coming out of an empty volume. It is hard to argue that is insignificant.

          Note that I cannot rule out the alternative that a lot of people are lying -and I think some of the players do.

          Regarding as to why there is no more replication of the process, the reason is that it depends on minute not well understood details. It is like the beginning of semiconductors, which started with random unexpected observations until somebody figured out a reproducible configuration. Now there are some people who can reproduce small amounts of power production. I will look up some significant reports if that helps.

          And there are others who claim they can produce high power consistently, but refuse to demonstrate -actually, DGT tried, and they proved to be wrong. These guys have no credibility.

          The lack of a satisfactory theory tells you nothing at all about the existence of the phenomena. Just try to explain semiconductors with theoretical knowledge based on vacuum tubes. Sometimes experiments follow the theory, and other times it works the other way around.

          I’m disappointed, since both Rossi and DGT failed to follow through. But my opinion is that the LENR phenomena is real.

          And if it is real I think will become a viable energy source. Once big difference between semiconductors and LENR is that everybody understands the potential economic impact of LENR. Unfortunately that makes the field a potential nut and crook magnet.

          • Donald Rangle

            September 22, 2013 at 9:52 am

            Hopeful wrote:

            Regarding the potential use of chemical fuel, this is the original account of the time when the empty spheres were cut open, in front of witnesses:…
            So you have a significant amount of energy coming out of an empty volume. It is hard to argue that is insignificant.

            Obviously, if it were empty, that would be a miracle. Even cold fusion needs more than an empty volume.

            But of course it’s not empty. That account you linked doesn’t quote eye witnesses, although presumably the writer was present and says cutting it open showed nothing inside. But it doesn’t show a picture, although there’s a picture of Cravens cutting it (incidentally, without safety goggles, and with his tie hanging precariously close to the moving parts). And in the comments, Cravens writes: “not exactly empty…” In the IE article, Cravens writes: “So what is in that warm golden ball? It contains an activated carbon that holds metal alloy within its pores, some magnetic powder, some hydrogen storage material and some deuterium gas.” Doesn’t sound like an empty volume to me.

            Chemical fuel to provide the claimed heat could be provided in 5 to 10 % of the volume of the sphere, easy to hide in the shell of the sphere, in the parts he didn’t cut, or somehow within the carbon and hydrogen storage material. Moreover, those ingredients are pretty close to the ingredients in a NIMH battery, and you can’t identify the actual materials just by looking at them, so there could be chemical reactions in the materials he claims are producing nuclear reactions.

            The point is it’s not a lot of energy, and the potential energy density from nuclear is a million times higher than chemical. Is it too much to ask that he at least *exceeds* chemical energy density?

            As with so many cold fusion claims, it’s not that an alternative explanation for the observations is necessarily obvious. It’s that if the claim were valid, it could be demonstrated in a far more unequivocal way. These odd props (spherical brass balls in an aluminum bead bath) really do make it seem like a parlor trick. You know, like I can bend metal with my mind, but only spoons and keys that I supply, and in my controlled setting.

            If he’s got a formula for something that produces heat as reproducibly as he claims, then he should not need a heated bath to prove it. Insulate the material sufficiently, and run a coolant (water) around it at a controlled rate. Collect the coolant as an automatic way to integrate the power output. No one ever integrates their claimed power output. If you can turn cold water into warm water without any external power source, then you’ve got something. Now, produce enough warm water to exclude chemical energy, and the world will beat a path to your door.

            Interestingly, Cravens seems far more aware of the shortcomings than his audience. He is quoted in another CFN article as saying “It is not intended to prove anything…”. Mission accomplished. And in the comments to the article you linked, he writes: “Don’t buy stock until you see something unplugged from the wall and still producing electrical energy, heat or light.” When he unplugs his bead bath, and integrates the excess power for long enough, it will be time to pay attention.

          • Donald Rangle

            September 22, 2013 at 9:56 am

            Hopeful wrote:

            Regarding as to why there is no more replication of the process, the reason is that it depends on minute not well understood details. It is like the beginning of semiconductors, which started with random unexpected observations until somebody figured out a reproducible configuration.

            They were not unexpected. The transistor was patented years before any reports of working devices. And in any case, regardless of how finicky it may have been, the evidence was unequivocal, and once a working device was built, anyone could get the same result. So why doesn’t Cravens give his balls to someone else to test, removing the difficulty of minute details. Moreover, from the first claim of observed amplification to a commercial product was only a few years. It’s been 25 since cold fusion was claimed, and still proof-of-principle is absent.

            Now there are some people who can reproduce small amounts of power production.

            What cold fusion people call reproducibility is getting the right sign on their error sometimes. In 2008 McKubre said he was unaware of any quantitative reproducibility or any inter-lab reproducibility. To most scientists, that means there is no reproducibility.

            An article in NewScientist in 2003 quotes a cold fusion researcher who finally threw in the towel: “For close to two years, we tried to create one definitive experiment that produced a result in one lab that you could reproduce in another,” Saalfeld says. “We never could. What China Lake did, NRL couldn’t reproduce. What NRL did, San Diego couldn’t reproduce. We took very great care to do everything right. We tried and tried, but it never worked.”

            And there is nothing in the refereed literature that changes things since 2008, or since 2003 for that matter.

            The lack of a satisfactory theory tells you nothing at all about the existence of the phenomena.

            The existence of a robust theory that predicts it should not happen, makes the existence of the phenomenon highly unlikely. Or what’s a theory for? No one’s ever dropped a golf ball on Mars, but the theory of gravity says it would fall to the surface. Any claim to the contrary without solid evidence should be treated with skepticism.

            Just try to explain semiconductors with theoretical knowledge based on vacuum tubes.

            There was never a theory that suggested transistors or diodes should not work. And people are trying to explain nuclear reactions in metal hydrides based on theory of nuclear reactions in metal hydrides.

            I’m disappointed, since both Rossi and DGT failed to follow through. But my opinion is that the LENR phenomena is real.

            But the opinion of Nobel laureates like Gell-Mann (who called it baloney), Weinberg, Glashow, Lederman, and Seaborg, and that of many other distinguished scientists like Close, Lewis, Koonin, Garwin, and Park, and just about every nuclear physicist alive, is that the phenomenon is almost certainly bogus. I hope you’ll understand if I give their opinion more weight.

            Unfortunately that makes the field a potential nut and crook magnet.

            No argument there.

  29. powerpete

    September 20, 2013 at 11:19 am

    Looks to me like the simplest explanation is that he just doctored the heat bath so that the heating wasn’t symmetrical. The PDF says

    Another concern expressed was the uniformity of the aluminum beads and their temperature. The Lab Armor aluminum bead bath has manufacturing “uniformity” specs of 1°C. Before the expo, Dennis measured the temperature of the bead bath at 80°C on a 1 inch grid 2 inches from the bottom. The standard deviation was 0.4°C. During the expo the built-in RTD controlling the bath temperature (near the bottom) was typically 80.0 while the thermistor in the bath 1 inch from the top typically read 79.7 which indicates the vertical uniformity was also about 0.3°C.

    So he checked lateral temp uniformity ‘before the expo’ (i.e. take his word for it) but during the demo only the less interesting vertical uniformity was shown to be measured.

    The wiring schematic towards the end of this manual:

    shows there are separate heating elements for left and right sides. So just need to rig it so that one of these is disconnected on the ‘control’ side (and maybe also switch in a dummy load so the controller doesn’t error out). The controller keeps the overall temperature correct (measured in the middle) while there’s a nice left right gradient. Rig it so you can disconnect either side in case someone swaps the balls.

    Anyone see anything that rules out this explanation?

    • CuriousChris

      September 20, 2013 at 1:10 pm

      I agree with your surmise.

      It amazes me that people don’t seem to think you can rig scientific instruments.

      They are valid only when kept in good condition and regularly calibrated. but all bets are off if its possible for someone to tamper with it.

      Now had it been an oil bath the sort of tampering we have talked about would be harder to achieve.

      Why the aluminium balls? This is the realm of parlour tricks. A magician calls this sort of stuff misdirection.

      The usual suspects are happily misdirected.

    • Asterix

      September 20, 2013 at 5:16 pm

      I can see differences arising left-to-right just from normal manufacturing tolerances and device aging. Of course, Cravens could dispel this issue by swapping the ball locations periodically and demonstrate that the temperature differential still exists. He could have turned the axis of the experiment 90 degrees within the bath (i.e. swap left-to-right with front-to-back).

      But I don’t see any mention of this being done.

  30. JKW

    September 20, 2013 at 4:25 pm

    The balls business seems to be right in the General’s domain. GZ, any thoughts?

    • General Zaroff

      September 21, 2013 at 12:34 am

      I usually let an attractive female grad student handle my big hot balls when we do experiments. But I wouldn’t call what we do with them very scientific, so I will not try to offer any insight.

      Anyways, popeye’s point #4 is the only one that matters. If Cravens actually had anything of merit he would not abandon the experiment.

      • R Hopeful

        September 21, 2013 at 4:41 am

        Dennis Cravens offers his explanation: the method he uses is only useful for this type of experiment, not viable for any significant power generation.

        He claims to have a better way. We will see.

        • Donald Rangle

          September 22, 2013 at 3:28 pm

          Right, and Uri Geller can only bend spoons and keys in a particular setting. Put him on Johnny Carson with a table full of spoons he hasn’t seen before, and he suddenly is “not feeling very strong”.

          And no, we won’t “see” anytime soon. It will probably be just around the corner for many more years to come.

  31. GreenWin

    September 20, 2013 at 5:50 pm

    Lights Out for Nuclear Power?

    Be they aluminum or brass balls, the demise of the nuclear power industry continues to dominate world headlines:

    “The last thing anyone wants to hear regarding a nuclear accident is “unprecedented crisis” and “getting worse.” Yet that was the frank assessment Tatsujiro Suzuki, chair of Japan’s Atomic Energy Commission, gave about the Fukushima power plant in an interview with the BBC earlier this month.”

    LENR, since its popular discovery by Pons and Fleischmann 23 years ago has been a thorn in the side of nuclear power, both fission and fusion. As mainstream press trumpets the fall of nuclear industry – a major political roadblock to alternative nuclear power is dismantled.

    “[US nuclear inspector Dale Klein] is generally a polite man, but he recently announced in public exactly what he thinks of the Company that hired him. “You do not know what you’re doing,” Klein told Company president Naomi Hirose in person. “You do not have a plan.”

    Indeed, some experts are simply better than others. Especially those others who betray their expertise by minimizing the dangers of Fukushima’s near and long term impact on health and economy. The Japanese Parliament report states clearly, a collusion of government, TEPCO and regulators… is responsible.

    Not so slowly, but surely, the components of collusion in the global energy industry are being exposed and deconstructed.

    “[Fukushima’s] fundamental causes are to be found in the ingrained conventions of Japanese culture: our reflexive obedience; our reluctance to question authority; our devotion to ‘sticking with the program.’ “

    • JKW

      September 20, 2013 at 7:11 pm

      “LENR, since its popular discovery by Pons and Fleischmann 23 years ago has been a thorn in the side of nuclear power”.
      Looks like it’s been mostly a thorn in your side GW. If not those poor lost folks you could have had a normal life instead of being stranded in a fairyland.

      • GreenWin

        September 20, 2013 at 7:56 pm

        Maybe you’re right. Had I been more reflexive and “stuck with the program…” I could be losing billions$$ in nuke plants too!!

        Have a great weekend JKW. 🙂

        • JKW

          September 21, 2013 at 2:36 pm

          So you have billions to lose? What the heck are you doing hanging around these fringe blogs?? Go and lobby!

  32. Al Potenza

    September 20, 2013 at 5:57 pm

    “LENR, since its popular discovery by Pons and Fleischmann 23 years ago has been a thorn in the side of nuclear power, both fission and fusion.”

    I’ll have what GW is smoking.

    Most reputable physicists are not convinced cold fusion of any sort even exists. And most of those who think it might exist say that it is very unlikely to scale up to any useful level.

    Meanwhile, most active researchers with substantial cold fusion/LENR claims are only wishful thinkers, incompetents, self deluders, or obvious and fragrant investor frauds. A thorn? Only in the side of credibility and clear thinking.

    Where are all the “indipendent” tests of high power? Where are all the Rossi customers? Who is the partner company? Who are Defkalion’s world’s largest companies? Who knows?

    • Frank

      September 20, 2013 at 6:20 pm

      Who are Defkalion’s world’s largest companies?

      Defkalion needs to fix their web-site (got hacked):

      • JKW

        September 20, 2013 at 7:15 pm

        It will be probably weeks before they notice.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      September 20, 2013 at 8:15 pm

      Al Potenza….I bet this name and all the others you use make up over half the posts on this site. Who do you work for?

      • JKW

        September 20, 2013 at 8:49 pm

        Something struck your nerve Bernie? Perhaps your divine guide the doctor Rossi doesn’t post enough rose tainted messages any more?

      • GreenWin

        September 20, 2013 at 11:49 pm

        Bernie, Mary/popee/Pretenza/kimosabe etc are all shills for the nuke industry usually working through a spin doctor like Potomac Communications Group. PCG was busted years ago for writing pro-nuke “Op-Ed” articles published under names of university professors.

        You can read all about the scam in Bill Adler’s Austin Chronicle expose:

        PR agencies go quiet when their clients are arrested and prosecuted for criminal activity.

        • Donald Rangle

          September 21, 2013 at 9:24 am

          I wonder how that would go down. Some powerful corrupt man screaming in his office (think Orson Welles in Citizen Kane, or Steve Buscemi in Boardwalk Empire, or Kelsey Grammar in Boss to put it in the internet age):
          I want you to go on line and argue against those LENR people…

          Argue where, sir….

          You know, those blogs, those forums that are read by literally dozens of people. Get on it now! …

          But if they produce a device that works, sir, what’s an argument on an obscure blog gonna do?

          When he regains consciousness… yes sir … arguments on blogs, I’m on it.
          Sound plausible to anyone? If LENR worked, no amount of argument would have the slightest influence. LENR’s obituary was written a long time ago, and no one who matters takes it seriously. There is no threat. And if something happened that made people take it seriously, it would be too late for argument. It’s pure fantasy.

          On the other hand, if LENR is bogus, a small vocal following on obscure blogs is exactly the sort of the thing a swindler needs to keep his ruse going. Too much attention would kill it, but just enough to keep things uncertain will open a few speculative wallets. That’s why unrelenting and illogical rants from the the likes of GW are far more plausibly the work of paid shills. The idea is to stir up anger, which blocks any logical capacity a true believer might have had, and makes them open to wishful thinking and delusions about things they are wholly unqualified to understand.

        • GreenWin

          September 21, 2013 at 5:09 pm

          heh heh, while popee whines on about movie fiction the “Will Shill For Nukes” article spills facts:

          “Landsberger’s accomplice is Theodore M. Besmann, an Oak Ridge employee since 1985. Besmann is a prolific correspondent. Beginning at least as far back as 1978, he has had published under his own or others’ names dozens of nuclear love songs in newspapers across the country, from The New York Times to the San Francisco Chronicle to The Washington Post to the Houston Chronicle to The Christian Science Monitor…

          Ted Besmann is no blockhead. He moonlights as a paid consultant to Potomac Communications Group, the Washington PR firm that works for the Nuclear Energy Institute, the nuclear industry’s stentorian voice and lobby.”

          • JKW

            September 21, 2013 at 5:58 pm

            The Austin Chronicle, April 16th 2004.
            Slow on the uptake?

          • GreenWin

            September 22, 2013 at 3:12 am

            JK, you’re savvy enough to know the tactic of using university “experts” to spin industry bias is omnipresent. You want the details on MIT’s Dr. Josef Oehmen – the shill behind nuke’s denial Fukushima was anything to worry about??? It’s humiliating.

          • Donald Rangle

            September 22, 2013 at 10:00 am

            Well, I could have referred to Randolph Hearst, Enoch Johnson, or Leir of Britain, the real (or legendary) people those fictional characters were modeled on, but seeing them in action is less accessible.

            As for the facts, they don’t support your assertion. It is certainly plausible for the nuclear industry to employ expert consultants to lobby for them. Much of the population is strongly opposed to nuclear energy, even though they are sure it exists.

            The thing that is implausible is the nuclear industry hiring people to argue against LENR in obscure internet corners, since no one who matters believes it even exists.

            Try to understand the difference.

          • Donald Rangle

            September 22, 2013 at 10:03 am

            GW wrote:

            JK, you’re savvy enough to know the tactic of using university “experts” to spin industry bias is omnipresent.

            Of course, when a free energy scam employs the tactic of using university “experts” to spin their tale, they are automatically infallible?

          • GreenWin

            September 23, 2013 at 11:26 pm

            Sheesh, “popee” “mary yugo” “wrongle” and dozens of other pseudonyms defecate all over mainstream media comments at first sign of LENR publication.

            That’s begun to change as spin money runs out and PR agencies like Potomac Communications, Honeywell FM&T PR, and Hill and Knowlton don’t want shilling clients.

      • General Zaroff

        September 21, 2013 at 12:48 am

        I can’t speak for my fellow skeptics, but I work as an agent for big fast food. You wouldn’t belive how closely McDonald’s and Burger King are monitoring the developments in LENR. We have used fructose enriched corn syrup to break the will power and control the masses of most western nations. The few remaining holdouts, the last beacons of rational thought, are the free energy advocates. Think about it.

        • BigWillyJohnson

          September 21, 2013 at 1:58 am

          Glad to have you back on this board you belong good general.

          I agree with the above. Everyone is colluding with everyone! Oligarchs abound!

          Everytime we get either “more funding, scientists,toyota , DERPA or an open source effort like MFPM” to study LENR they don’t find anything. I wonder if the fuctose is doing it?

          Read More Here! (Im trying this link business)

        • Dale G. Basgall

          September 21, 2013 at 3:42 am

          Ah General I can see the Mac Slime transformed into USDA Prime Rib as well as the human do-do turned into boneless burger.

          Aren’t they trying that over there in Japan? Do-do into steak. LENR would help the fast food industry, I can now see possibilities clearly…

          • JKW

            September 21, 2013 at 3:32 pm

            Dale, what is a human do-do? Are we going into extinction? I guess this website is, but I hope it will last a couple of months more. I got a mortgage to pay..

  33. GreenWin

    September 20, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    43 ARRESTED 98 CHARGED INCLUDING President of Korea Hydro & Nuclear Power Co. and Vice Minister Energy

    Is nuclear power a fraud? No. Just the people who keep it running. This is why Ernie Moniz does not sleep well at night. Who could when charged with an industry that is so corrupt and devoid of moral compass, it can’t sheit straight? Nuclear Village? Nuclear Mafia?

    Ah well, the harder they come, the harder they fall.

    • JKW

      September 21, 2013 at 2:08 am

      Good for South Korea. Seems to have cleared a few cases of fraud. Now back to LENR and eCat… When is the new indipendent test due, again?

    • Donald Rangle

      September 21, 2013 at 10:40 am

      Does the half billion dollar alleged fraud at solyndra make solar energy itself evil? Do the 32 arrests in China over corruption in the cooking oil business mean cooking oil should be banned. Do the billions of dollars worth of stolen Nigerian oil, with the profits laundered in the US ( mean it is unethical to use fossil fuels?

      I think it is unethical to impugn the DOE and Moniz with corruption in Korea and Japan. Some of that corruption (falsifying safety documents) does reflect poorly on the industry, but the vast majority is your garden variety kickbacks on contracts and the like. (And far from spelling an end to the industry, Korea has plans to expand it.) The arrests in the US are for cheating on time cards by a company contracted to clean up military waste. Despicable, to be sure, but it says nothing about the merits or demerits of nuclear energy, which in itself says nothing about the reality or bogosity of cold fusion. Your rants are twice removed from the relevant topic here.

  34. GreenWin

    September 21, 2013 at 4:34 am

    Yep, those nuke BigMac N’ Fries make peeps do evil stuff. In the last couple years we got:

    Japan’s nuclear village – buckets of bribes and incompetence, coverup and disinfo behind Fukushima meltdown.

    South Korea nuke industry – 100+ big cheeses go to the Big House for french-fried fraud.

    US nuke contractor Data Systems & Solutions pleads guilty bribing Lithuanian officials with cash and chicken wings.

    US Nuclear Security Technology partner CH2M Hill(in charge of USA nuke security) pleads guilty to federal crimes and Pizza Hut time card fraud.

    Taiwan nuke Power Company (Taipower) pleads guilty to $196M in padded expenses for late night Taco Bell deliveries.

    Security breach at Oak Ridge Building Y-12 causes DOE to fine negligent contractor Babcock and Wilcox… after finding BK onion rings littering the national security site.

    Is it just the high fructose corn syrup? Or old fashioned negligence, fraud, and greed causing the nuke industry crime sprees? The resident NPD surely knows.

    • JKW

      September 21, 2013 at 9:57 am

      After the last couple of years we got nothing more than:
      “All this will limit my communication, until the reports will be published, but, nevertheless, I will say what I will be permitted to.”
      Where is the f*****g eCat?

  35. Donald Rangle

    September 21, 2013 at 9:39 am

    Posts from “popeye” (and “joshua cude”) are not getting through, so I’m using rangle. I doubt admin is paying attention, so I guess it’s some kind of glitch. Sorry about the confusion. … popeye

  36. JKW

    September 21, 2013 at 10:17 am

    Rossi has written another meaningless fart on JONP, which resulted in an almost immediate post by Frank Acland. Talking about paid shills…
    His website is like a mine field where you have to tread ever so carefully not to step into a shitty ad.

    • JKW

      September 21, 2013 at 1:35 pm

      Sorry, I meant underpaid shills.

    • JNewman

      September 21, 2013 at 5:20 pm

      There must be an IQ filter on e-cat world. You can’t possibly have an IQ over 80 and say this with a straight face:

      “The odds of it all being a hoax are now about as great as the odds of winning Powerball. So many people have tested the various forms of nickel-hydrogen LENR and found that it works makes it proven science.”

      • Frank

        September 21, 2013 at 5:47 pm

        The odds of it all being a hoax are now about as great as the odds of winning Powerball.

        If the chances to win the Powerball jackpot are as high as the e-cat beeing a hoax, – well , in that case I go now to buy a Powerball ticket now.

        • RonB

          September 22, 2013 at 3:46 pm

          I could be wrong but I think they were talking about LENR, not the e-cat.

  37. Thicket

    September 21, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    We have a breakthrough. The site of the Florida eCat factory has long been the source of much speculation. Thanks to the diligence of eCat watchers, the mystery has been solved. No wonder the factory couldn’t be found. It isn’t in an industrial area. To hide the factory from prying eyes, it’s located in a condominium complex.

    Quote (courtesy of Sandy on eCatworld)

    Leonardo Corporation has purchased Unit 105 of Alton South, a condominium located at 1220 Alton Road, Miami Beach, Florida. The “Warranty Deed” for this unit is in the Miami-Dade County Recorder’s Official Records; Book 28794, Page 1511. The deed was recorded on August 28, 2013. The deed can be viewed online with a compatible Java application.

    Here is an inside view of the factory.

    Additional information.

    Yup. This is a fine example of the good use eCat license investor money has been put to. A condominium in Florida!

    • JKW

      September 21, 2013 at 1:47 pm

      It looks better than a prison cell.

      • Deleo77

        September 21, 2013 at 2:53 pm

        Maybe someone down there can see if Rossi goes to work or to the beach everyday. I know what my hunch is.

    • Jordi Heguilor

      September 22, 2013 at 4:09 am

      I guess the Believers don’t realize that the money they paid in licenses would never pay for a “fully robotic factory” but, surprisingly, is just right to pay for this kind of condominium.

      Of course my argument fails when there’s a deep pockets, no-questions-asked, secret U.S. partner.

      Nothing wrong about that line of thinking. I abandoned it at 5 together with Santa and the Tooth Fairy, but then I’m not a good Believer.

  38. GreenWin

    September 21, 2013 at 5:20 pm

    “…but the vast majority [of fraud] is your garden variety kickbacks on contracts and the like.”

    To the moral and ethically compromised a garden sprouting a “variety of kickbacks” is Standard Operating Gardening. Little wonder they be kicked out of the neighborhood.

    • Donald Rangle

      September 22, 2013 at 10:05 am

      You missed the part where I agreed the corruption is despicable. It’s the connection to the merits of nuclear energy, and the connection of nuclear energy to the reality of cold fusion I disagreed with.

      I also find your attempt to connect all corruption in the nuclear industry to the DOE and Moniz despicable, for what it’s worth.

      • CuriousChris

        September 22, 2013 at 11:55 am

        Greenwin misses nothing. He chooses what he says with care and deliberation.

        Its not about the truth its about his agenda whatever that is, so say what you will he will only respond with careful and oh so clever manipulations.

        In his own mind anyway.

        • JNewman

          September 22, 2013 at 1:13 pm

          GW may choose his words with care, but it remains a total mystery (at least to me) what his purpose is. He is far too fact-free to be persuasive. He is far too random to be infuriating. And he is completely non-selective in his choice of audience for his rants. So what is his purpose? I guess he just enjoys the sound of his own words.

          • General Zaroff

            September 22, 2013 at 6:38 pm

            Yes Greenwin is a mystery. I would peg him as a disgruntled former researcher were it not for his complete ignorance of science. And I would peg him as some kidn of lobbyist were it not for his nonsensical style.

            I am left to conclude that, like me, Greenwin is an agent working for big fast food. We are all just lucky that the manager at his local branch is kind enough to let him use his ipad when the drive-thru isn’t too busy.

  39. Dale G. Basgall

    September 21, 2013 at 6:49 pm

    Where is Mrs. Rossi ? Quietest wife (woman) I have never heard a comment from. Shoots if my woman (wife) was by my side and held half of the e-cat patent in Italy like Mrs. Rossi her lips would be telling everyone how good the product was, just to get more cabbage in the bank account.

    That I have always questioned, what’s her story regarding the e-cat?

  40. GreenWin

    September 22, 2013 at 3:58 am

    Popee, Mary, Wrongle, Potomac Comm, consensus etc. says:

    The idea is to stir up anger, which blocks any logical capacity a true believer might have had, and makes them open to wishful thinking and delusions about things they are wholly unqualified to understand.”

    Here is revealed the underlying pathology of the elite, expert, ivory tower community. It is a pathology infused with elitism, racism, condescension, perhaps even a solipsistic belief in divine right. You see, Popee an artifice created around a kernel of programmatic logic, is wired to respond that he and his brethren alone are “qualified to understand.” It matters little what this “understanding” is about. It is the inflated ego that struts and frets; the swagger of an insulted headmaster, embroiled in his own demise.

    The lesson being impressed upon Popee and his like-minded elitists, is that creation is filled with many qualified to understand. Though they claim not the qualifications the elite have invented. In this age of access to knowledge these words again apply:

    “…to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them…”

    The causes are many, enumerated daily.

    • Donald Rangle

      September 22, 2013 at 10:06 am

      Wow! I could not have invented a better example of logic-free bluster designed to stir up anger to block logical capacity to open your disciples to wishful thinking and delusions. Thanks.

      But one thing confuses me. Not long ago, you seemed totally obsessed with qualifications, refusing to pay any attention to anyone here unless they provided proof of their professional credentials, and putting all your faith in the Levi report *because* of their credentials. Now, you seem to argue they don’t matter. Consistency is not your strong suit.

      • Andy Kumar

        September 22, 2013 at 5:48 pm

        “Consistency is not your strong suit”

        Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. We know, GW is no fool. He has learnt his physics and logic from the likes of Aristotle. Just in case we forget, Newton studied Aristotle avidly because he (Aristotle) was known as the “Master of Those who Know!”


  41. Jordi Heguilor

    September 22, 2013 at 4:17 am

    Very recently I said that the time was running out on me because I have predicted the unraveling of Rossi by the end of September.

    Now that the news of Rossi spending his devotees fees on his condo are out, the excrement may hit the ventilator. I may not be wrong by much.

    • Al Potenza

      September 22, 2013 at 8:25 pm

      Based on experience with Steorn and some other scams, you’re probably wildly optimistic. These things go on as long as there are idiot believers willing to send money. And usually, there is an almost limitless supply of those. They read the latest hype, assume the critics are paid shills or “pathological skeptics” and they pay.

  42. RonB

    September 22, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    I find the discussion on vortex about the D2’s balls to be fascinating. Perhaps it can’t be scaled in the current incarnation but at least if it’s true and can be replicated then perhaps it’s the break we’ve been waiting for.

    • Dale G. Basgall

      September 22, 2013 at 6:28 pm

      Ron is it a LENR process or nuclear? Does the person who came up with them state any specifics or are they left just as novelty?

      I have researched and experimented so long in trying all kinds of stuff with several deep pockets that I am just not even wanting to look at another set of magic situations and the D2 balls seem to be another attempt at novelty.

      If it isn’t here on ecatnews it just isn’t worth looking at, so possibly the newest breaking news about the newest attempt for making a magic heat situation could be a new topic. I would like to see all the new gismos claimed that produce over unity pulled apart here so there is again some topic of discussion we can get involved in.

      A good cup of coffee with a few claims of over unity and this group will have it torn to shreds in a day or two unless everything seems legit.

      This site allows quite a bit of posts that others want to post and are just picking things apart that do not add up. Kind of like drafting a design of a product before you make it and logically picking out the things that for sure do not fit in the equation of usefulness or viability to produce.

      Unless there is an issued US patent on those D2 balls and the process to manufacture and use the balls is completely disclosed it is most likely another Rossi sais product in my book.

      I followed this Rossi thing for years now and I am exhausted as well as enlightened about people deceiving others for profit of some type.

    • Al Potenza

      September 22, 2013 at 8:24 pm

      ” if it’s true and can be replicated then perhaps it’s the break we’ve been waiting for.”

      Ridiculous! It’s most likely a measurement error related to something which is not uniform between the balls or the bath.

  43. Harry Perini

    September 22, 2013 at 7:20 pm

    $100,000 needed

    Bill Alek Preparing SmartPAK™ Power for Electric Bikes

    After years of research and development, a Senior Engineer from several large companies including Boeing, William Alek of AuroraTek, is ready to announce a technology that is very close to being ready to provide power for e-bikes and scooters, after an infusion of $100k for patent filings and prototype engineering.

    • Al Potenza

      September 22, 2013 at 8:23 pm

      SmartPak + Alek = Smart Alek?

      • Shane D.

        November 15, 2015 at 11:23 pm

        Good one!

    • R Hopeful

      September 22, 2013 at 9:28 pm

      Harry, don’t read PESN. It can can cause bank account damage.

  44. Al Potenza2

    March 16, 2016 at 11:33 pm


  45. Al Potenza

    March 16, 2016 at 11:33 pm