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Defkalion’s Demo Winds Down

July 23, 2013

DGT’s demo is in its final stages. I watched it from start to wind-down. This is simply a quick summary of my first impressions.

I was surprised by the level of detail and the apparent freedom given to those present. That said, I was disappointed to see that only Mats Lewan stepped up to the plate to stick his nose in on our behalf. I think we all owe him for doing that. {Thank you, Mats}. Where were all the other sceptics? As far as I can tell, this was not DGT’s doing but until we know more, we cannot be sure.

We are told that the complete video set will be available online presently. For now, the salient points are that an inert run was made to check calibration of instruments and gauge system parameters using Argon. The journalist (with a degree in Engineering Physics, I believe) was allowed to roam and measure, which he did. This included him causing a fuse to blow (we will have to await his account on that) when checking the input power. The control run was ended, the Argon purged and replaced by Hydrogen. After preheating, a plasma was struck by switching on the HT input and an apparent energy gain (mostly between approx. 2.5 and 3) and sustained with an input a little under 2KW and output hovering under 6KW.

I do not want to go into all the details at this late hour. For me, the bottom line is this:


If there was no cheating, this was an important day for LENR and perhaps the world. Unfortunately, we cannot conclude that. I am open to persuasion but DGT’s past let-downs have put me on guard. Any demo conducted on their own premises by a company making grand claims starts off with a giant handicap. I accuse them of nothing except leaving the barn door open after putting so much effort into this day. Those unconvinced will see hidden tricks and that will come as no surprise.

To give an example (and please, I am not proposing this is a credible mechanism): The display on the wall was generated by data fed from a computer. During the blank run this was reasonably checked with reality. However, it is easy for software to fudge things and for the fudge to hop around depending on what was being measured at the time. For instance, we only really care about delta T on the second run. How do we know it represented reality then? I doubt such a clumsy trick but that’s not the point. As scientists, the DGT guys know that is how things will be viewed by other scientists. Any demo conducted on-site is up for criticism. Period.

The big question therefore is: Will this be enough to persuade investors? I think it might for some. While I hang on to my scepticism until they present convincing third party results performed by qualified testers, I do bow to admitting that they delivered more than I expected and I now look forward to hearing more. In particular, I would be intrigued if they use this time to reveal the third party results they promised last year.

As with Rossi and his eCat, I hope to have my scepticism dashed. This was interesting but cannot be called proof.


The videos should appear here.


Posted by on July 23, 2013. Filed under Competitors,Defkalion,Hyperion,Tests & Demos,Videos. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

1,172 Responses to Defkalion’s Demo Winds Down

  1. Shane D.

    August 2, 2013 at 1:56 am


    Personally I think you purposely misinterpreted Hadjichristos post to you as his reneging on the deal when he was merely reiterating the quid pro quo of you identifying yourself first. From there you proceeded to put more words in his mouth, for which Peter took offense, which provided you even more grist to spin your way out of the picture and back to an anonymous Internet bully.

    It was obvious from the get go you really didn’t want to go through with this as you kept your taunts of DGT going even as you began the negotiations, in what I could only assume was a hope to torpedo the invite. When that didn’t work you went to plan b on JHs post of today which you are using as your exit cue, while blaming the breakdown on DGT.

    You are pretty good at this.

    You may not like to hear his but I think this can still be salvaged. You two really aren’t that far apart. Just a little bending by both and it would be back on.

    • Al Potenza

      August 2, 2013 at 8:06 am

      “Personally I think you purposely misinterpreted Hadjichristos post to you as his reneging on the deal…”

      The more I read that original “offer” on Peter Gluck’s blog, the less sense it makes to me. Did he say under what conditions I could test? Did he say what equipment I could use? Did he say when a test could take place? Did he guarantee that a test would take place if I identified myself and provided some specific credentials? None of the above. It was all vague, tangential and essentially no assurance that anything would take place regardless of what I and my colleagues had to offer.

      Who wants to act on a mess like that?

      If you think this was a real offer and the prose made sense, please bring it over here and parse it for me and explain each phrase as to its EXACT meaning. And don’t read between the lines. Read exactly what he wrote. If you can. Thanks.

    • Roger Bird

      August 3, 2013 at 10:46 am

      Scratch the surface of a skeptopath and you find a disturbed individual. How come I am not surprised? It is easy to see psychological disturbance. They have a lot of rationalizations.

  2. spacegoat

    August 2, 2013 at 3:31 am

    Bravo to Al Potenza for recently keeping his responses polite and incisive when conversing with DGT and Gluck. The ball was always firmly in the court of DGT. DGT’s restricted and limited demo must have been for internal marketing purposes, to distributors, partners or existing investors.

    Daniel’s link above to the joint Kim/Hadjichristos paper is interesting:

    1.Surely Kim would have tested the DGT boxes himself before cooperating on a paper. Some claim he is in the twilight of his career seeking a breakthrough and is thus oblivious to errors and/or possible scam. Maybe, but I don’t believe he would write this paper without some decent checking. Feeding General Zaroff … probability he was fooled < 0.5

    2.The paper states at ~20 cm from the reactor the magnetic field rose from ~0.6 Tesla to 1.6 Tesla during the reaction period
    Some have claimed this degree of magnetism is ridiculously high but 1 T to 2.4 T – is the coil gap of a typical loudspeaker magnet

    3. The paper also states Defkalion has called for cooperation with the scientific community
    Well a good opportunity to cooperate with Potenza (science PhD?) and at least two Physics PhD’s has presented itself. The bickering about the timing of the release of Potenza’s real name is childish of Gluck and Hadjichristos. An internet community validated test protocol, moderated by a PhD (Henning Dekant) would be novel and create some publicity, maybe more so than for LENR.

    But does DGT actually want a test? Maybe the time is ripe now.

    Suggest Al Potenza to drop references to his claims of past lies, past equipment and past “bad behaviour” of DGT. Stick testing the box as presented in the demo.

    • spacegoat

      August 2, 2013 at 4:18 am

      4. From the paper: …prediction made in 2006 that the hydrogen pair Boson clusters are Bosons and
      cannot coexist with Fermions (odd Ni isotopes) in the
      same space or in the same trapping potential

      It is claimed that DGT’s box only generates excess heat using even isotopes of NI – bolstering Kim’s claim of a working theory. Any comments about the scientific quality of this paper? It seems strange that a scam would bother to write papers and present them at international conferences. I am of the view that the DGT claims maybe erroneous but no scam is involved.

      Lets hope a proper test with valid protocol goes ahead.

      • dsm

        August 2, 2013 at 4:27 am


        Hasn’t the penny dropped yet ?

        Step back, look at the big pic, then step forward again.

        DGT are not running a scam – leave that type of rabid rambling bluster to scam crushers Gary Wright and CuriousChris (who posted his tunnel views over on this over at Peter Gluck’s Ego Out blog a couple of days ago.). Peter toldm him where to go.

        Gary Wright has gone remarkably quiet lately – possibly working out a strategy to avoid litigation – I’ll support him in court if he claims an insanity plea.


        Hmmm I like that
        Is it a bird, is it a plane, No! its
        CC/GW the mighty “scam bluster”

        • Al Potenza

          August 2, 2013 at 7:51 am

          DGT and Rossi are not going to sue anyone for libel. To do so would open themselves up to the requirement that they prove beyond a doubt that their claims about their devices and products are true. That would require that they submit the devices to defense experts for examination and independent testing. Of course they won’t do that.

          When James Randi called the Sniffex explosive detector a dangerous and phony dowsing rod back in 2005, Sniffex sued him. As soon as preliminaries began before the trial, the judge made it clear to Sniffex attorneys that they would have to prove that the device worked and that defense experts had the right to test it. The suit was withdrawn almost immediately.

          • dsm

            August 2, 2013 at 8:07 am

            That simply has nix to do with this ?

          • Al Potenza

            August 2, 2013 at 9:08 am

            Sure it does. You implied Wright fears litigation. He doesn’t. Rossi and Defkalion are in no position to sue anyone for libel.

          • DSM

            August 2, 2013 at 10:07 am

            And where is the fearless scambluster now ?
            Not here

    • R Hopeful

      August 2, 2013 at 4:58 am

      The paper confirms the pieces of information they have mentioned before. Seeing their results out there for all to see is impressive.

      This can’t be a scam. If it is, it will go down in history as the strangest ploy of the industrial era. There is a chance they are fooling themselves -through some experimental error- but their test method is quite robust.

      The data they share show that the reaction fizzles when the temperature goes below 350C, so they assume that the reaction occurs above the Curie temperature of nickel (352C), while the ICCF17 paper assumed the limit is the Debye temperature (177C). It seems they are making up the theory as they learn more details. And that is perfectly fine. Not much of a theory yet.

      The paper from one year ago showed little data. Now they show large amounts of power -we already knew. Their test runs are very recent, from May. My impression is that one year ago they were starting to observe interesting results, and early this year they learned to control the process -more or less.

      I can’t believe their magnetic field claims. The very least they could do when mentioning such an outrageous result is describe how they measured it.

      • Deleo77

        August 2, 2013 at 6:01 am

        How can a Physicist as accomplished as Kim present a theory coming from a demonstration that shows heat generation that goes beyond the current known laws of physics, and not be questioned in depth about it by the scientific community? If this doesn’t cause his fellow physicists to reach out to him and ask what the hell is going on, what would?

        I too don’t think it is a scam. Yes, it appears DGT has taken some outside money from investors, but so many scams, and this cannot be overstated, continually solicit investment money from investors. There is a pyramid scheme, a penny stock, solicitations for money on their website… So if DGT isn’t continually asking for money, why do any of this? Why do a demo at ICCF, or have Kim do this presentation, and why get better measurement and lab equipment from NI that would make a hoax harder to stage?

        Would they be doing all of this to appease past investors? Perhaps. Jed Rothwell mentioned that he spoke to a couple of scientists who tested the Hyperion under an NDA, and he said they couldn’t give details of what they found, but they did come away unimpressed. So it sounds like the reaction didn’t work that day. It almost sounds similar to Rossi.

        In the slideshow they call for more cooperation with the scientific community. That sounds like a good idea.

    • Al Potenza

      August 2, 2013 at 8:03 am

      Thanks, Goat. I reread Hadjichristos’s fractured Engrish “offer” on Peter Gluck’s blog and I realized that without extensive reading between the lines, I don’t actually understand a word of what he is saying. Is it really an offer? An offer of what? When? How? I gave him every opportunity on that blog to clarify. He never did. He also did not answer the several polite if pointed questions I asked him about claims he and his company had publicly made. He didn’t say why or address the questions in any way. He ignored the questions altogether. Is that how a credible person writes and behaves?

      • spacegoat

        August 2, 2013 at 9:32 am

        Irrespective of the past or his intentions, you and your colleagues have made a good proposal, which takes into account their requirement for name revelation. They say they want to cooperate with scientists … well we’re waiting DGT. In the meantime, suggest laying off the past that might be embarrassing to some parties.

      • robiD

        August 2, 2013 at 10:30 am

        Hadijcristos position is quite clear. He doesn’t want to talk about protocols, procedures, tests, instruments etc. with an unknown person that he even doesn’t know whether is a scientist or a bricklayer (with respect for all the bricklayers).
        Do YOU want a test, with YOUR request and YOUR protocol? Fine, put YOUR name on the table, this should be the minimum IMHO.

        You introduce to him a person (Henning Dekant) that, even if qualified, doesn’t know you directly but he knows only your position about LENR thanks to your endless discussion about the topic on every site you frequent. If Henning Dekant wasn’t a physicist, who would you introduce to Hadijcristos instead of directly revealing your real identity?
        For what he knows an for what all we know, you might be a pimply teenager with a lot of time to waste, and should someone that leads a company start to talk about protocols with a teenager?
        If you were a real scientist or a qualified person, you would use other people instead of Henning Dekant to vouch for you, people that belongs to your working environment (if you have a working environment).

        In my opinion Defkalion has given you too much importance, you are nothing more than a ghost and is not a professional behavior to talk with ghosts. Unfortunately they did a huge mistake in opening a such discussion with you. Waste of time, as usual with you.

        • Al Potenza

          August 2, 2013 at 4:49 pm

          “Waste of time, as usual with you.”

          Waste of time as usual with THEM. Or maybe you can show me the Greek government tests they had in 2011, the seven famous company tests they had April 2012, or name a few of the 6 of 10 world’s largest companies they are currently claiming to work with?

          People in my “working environment” would indeed be ideal for testing Defkalion. Unfortunately not a one of them believes it’s worth a moment of time. And they’re all busy.

          The only thing you wrote I agree with is that Defkalion gives me much too much “importance”. No legitimate owner of the most important technology of the century would do that. THAT should tell you PLENTY but it probably won’t.

  3. Jami

    August 2, 2013 at 7:47 am

    “Kim is senile?”

    After this slide show? Yes. Either senile or barking mad. Some of you have funny ideas about what a theoretical physicist is. If he witnessed a DGT demo (I doubt it), he wouldn’t have any additional insight compared with any other onlooker and would simply have to rely on whatever he’s being told just like you and me. What he’s been told is that his LENR theory works – based on only two little details which DGT conveniently discovered to fit Kim’s theory but which they strangely never mentioned before. Instead both flatly contradict just about everything DGT has shown and told us in the past. And Kim’s theory went totally unnoticed up until now – not only unnoticed by the mainstream but even by the “field” (if you can call it that). Almost no citations. No W&L style rebuttals or workshops, no Krivit holding up the flag – not even Storms seems to have regarded it as any serious challenge to his ideas. But when a former manager of a madhouse and a barkeeper step up and say they suddenly discovered that their silly machine produces a strong magnetic field (at least now they know why their famous aquarium-type reactors with electronics “more complex than an Airbuses” right next to the core never worked) and doesn’t work with Ni61 (they used plain Ni back in 2011 – 12 dollars to the charge – wasn’t it?), all hell breaks lose and Kim is a superstar for people like Daniel and Dough.
    Get up off your knees and stop worshiping whoever owns a professorship as soon as he is stupid enough to get drawn in by the likes of Rossi or DGT. They don’t all of a sudden become right just because of something as degrading as that.

    • Al Potenza

      August 2, 2013 at 7:57 am

      I like to reduce things to their simplest issues when possible.

      One of Defkalion’s spectacular claims about their reactor is that it produces a field of 1.6 Teslas at a distance of 20 centimeters from the device. That is easily measured and Defkalion should demonstrate with expert witnesses present exactly how the measurement was made and what the result was.

      Personally, I think that this claim is hogwash.

      I also think that the claim made recently by Defkalion (see Lewan’s blog, newest post) that six of the ten largest companies in the world are looking at their products with intention to work with them, is also ridiculous. Someone who is close to them should challenge them to prove it. How hard can that be?

      • Dale G. Basgall

        August 2, 2013 at 3:26 pm

        Al the 1.7 Tesla claim @20cm is so far out there that they have most surely made a claim that is obviously not true.

        The strongest rare earth (N-52) mixture of sintered material in a 4″ diameter x 2″ thick disc has about 2848 gauss field @ about 1″ from axis of polarization, and that is around 162 pounds of attractive force to paramagnetic material. At 10″ it’s around .09 pound of attractive force.

        So if their claims of 16000 gauss @20cm are even considered a possibility there are some hard facts about that kind of magnetic field strength. Any material including stainless or aluminum or dirt would quickly be sucked into that field. Their claims are truly doctored up or actually an outright claim to get others stirred up.

        I have used a magnetizer and used over 5k volts for several times to charge a N52 block. The current required to do that will toast down the magnetizing coil, I had a cooling system @50 degrees F within the coil and they still get torn apart.

        1.7 Tesla @20cm is crazy talk and it is obvious that someone did a translation mistake. Don’t tell me they didn’t know that before, you couldn’t get close to it without knowing the danger of that strong of a field in that large of an area because it would encompass a 20″ diameter vectored space @1.7T.

        I doubt you will get any response regarding that if questioned or they will retract it. No way with the current shown on the screen that could come 100 times closer to their claims. That claim is hoax.

        A compass will be permanently disabled @ 5 gauss, we are living in about a 4 gauss field. Field extension is less when the gauss is high so again I cannot imagine someone making that claim and hoping it is believed by anyone that works with magnetic fields.

        • Al Potenza

          August 2, 2013 at 4:51 pm

          Thanks Dale. Very interesting and helpful.

    • dsm

      August 2, 2013 at 8:38 am

      You are a story – 12 months ago I really though you were a sharp mind and one of the critical thinkers even if I didn’t always agree with you.
      Of late you have degenerated into a peddler of bias and put down and crap. Even a professor of the stature of Yeong Kim gets your bias.
      So WhoTF are you ? – a noise in the blogsphere who claims that an eminent professor is deluded.
      Swearing deleted by Admin
      (Deus ignoscit – Mea Culpa Mea Culpa)

      • Al Potenza

        August 2, 2013 at 9:11 am

        Geez man. The “miserable pricks” are those who make delicious claims to tempt the gullibles (like you) without adequate proof. That includes Rossi and Defkalion mainly but also most other claimants to robust LENR including but not limited to Nanospire, Swartz, Hagelstein, Miley, Brillouin, McKubre and, this really pains me, but I have doubts about Edmund Storms whom I used to admire. He seems to believe Rossi. I have no idea why.

        • DSM

          August 2, 2013 at 10:06 am

          BS – Get back to the point. Jami is gratuiously attcking Prof Kim with nothing but his bile.
          Stop deflecting attention.

        • Roger Barker

          August 2, 2013 at 10:10 am

          And Mary Potenza you’re a COWARD. A KEYBOARD WARRIOR AND NOTHING ELSE!

          • RonB

            August 2, 2013 at 12:40 pm

            This is an obvious case of goading and it’s childish. Roger, if you want Al to perform the test, then put some effort into telling him (and us) why you think he should believe DGT is on the level about the test.

        • DSM

          August 2, 2013 at 10:28 am

          Also HowTF can you justify an attack on Prof Kim by raising your opinions on DGT ? – just what does that deflection have to do with what Jami just did. ?.
          You can’t and that explains what a warped perspective you live with.
          If you are half the credentials you claim you would not be party to such poisonous posting.
          That is a very good reasn why I doubt your claims of your career but if somehow there was any truth in them, at some time in your life, then what happened.
          Clearly something went downhill and I suspect, big time. There has to be a reason for you to want to hide.

        • winebuff

          August 3, 2013 at 4:58 am

          The word your missing is “YES” al. YES I would like to see and measure one of the only machines on earth to use this tech. Well except in the mind of al potenza…mary yugo…mmmm george hody u can’t pull the trigger when the gun is in your hand. Turns out your not such a good assasin after all. U want to sit in your ivory tower with the rest of these despots in complete denial its too funny. The last two years wasting your time with baseless claims of fraud. Your an embarrasment to science and humanity. I officially bannish u to the scrap heap
          Of history

          Cbeers lol

      • dsm

        August 2, 2013 at 12:32 pm

        Admin – thanks for the reminder – I’ll just think it and know it about this antic of Jami’s in attacking Professor Kim.

        • winebuff

          August 3, 2013 at 5:07 am


          I have been very critical of u for a while. At least you’ve come
          To understand this many scientists and and physisists can’t all be in on the scam. This is real and will hopefully in the future be made to use commercially. Unlike your bretheren on this site who have a mental issue that I believe is not curable.

    • AB

      August 2, 2013 at 11:36 am

      Pathoskepticism in action.

      “LENR isn’t real because there’s no theoretical basis.”

      “Oh, a professor claims his theory predicted the results of an experiment? That can’t be. The professor must be senile, or the results are faked.”

    • Deleo77

      August 2, 2013 at 4:33 pm

      Below is Kim talking about witnessing the demo of the Hyperion. So he did go to Vancouver to see this first-hand. Is he senile? He seems to be 76 years old or so, so he is not a young guy. But he doesn’t sound that way in his comments below.

      I know some here thing the crux of the scam was for Rossi and DGT to find older scientists, Foacardi and Kim, and get them to buy off on fraudulent devices that backed their theories. And Rossi/DGT did it through staged demos where neither Focardi nor Kim could see the underlying scam in the demo. That would have to be the main theory of the skeptics at this point.

      I imagine Kim has been in hundreds of labs and has run and witnessed more demos and experiments than anyone here. Surely, he asked a few tough questions and looked around before putting his name on a presentation with DGT. I think the team of researchers from Upsala Univeristy, also did their best with their paper. But hey, if they were all simply fooled by some brilliant con artists, then that is the story.

      from Kim in June 2013:
      “Recently, I had an opportunity to observe experimental runs of DGTG’s R-5 reactor carried out by their group of scientists in Vancouver. The results were positive. More importantly the results are reproducible, since there had been many positive runs with other observers so far in addition to my observation. This is very significant historically since we have now a device which yields reproducible results for the first time. It is a break-through which we have been waiting for.

      The break-through is accomplished by new comers, new breed of scientists and engineers lead by a mathematician who became an excellent scientist. This is a new wave and new paradigm change.”

    • daniel maris

      August 2, 2013 at 9:35 pm

      I’m not on my knees, I’m on my toes, curious to see what lies ahead.

  4. Roger Barker

    August 2, 2013 at 10:13 am

    A message for you Admin for blocking my posts. How can you be like this? You let Mary Pretenza and co, spew their bile on this website without any evidence yet you block my posts when I give it back to them.

    I am not a fanboy. I do not believe in Rossi or DGT or whoever. I want to see facts as much as the next person. BUT at the same time I have pure hatred for these scumbag keyboard warriors, who when given the opportunity to put their money where their mouth is, ran with their tails between their legs.

    They are NOTHING BUT COWARDS. Grow a pair Admin and block these COWARDS.

    Added by Admin:

    I have no idea why the software put you into moderation. Perhaps it got fed up with you. It amazes me why people think it takes courage to block anyone on the Internet. That is the easy way.

    • dsm

      August 2, 2013 at 10:55 am


      I feel for your frustration. Went through similar about a year ago where what was so downright clear was being evaded, avoided, lied about, and manipulated.

      But do try to calm down as when you do express your outrage so forcefully you tend to play right into their hands.

      Sometimes you have to say the same thing but with great subtlety.

      Hang in there do cool down.



      • Roger Barker

        August 3, 2013 at 5:12 am

        I hear you DSM.

  5. RonB

    August 2, 2013 at 12:45 pm

    Back in 2010 or 2011, there was a mainstream media report about Purdue and cold fusion. I can’t site this but my coworker took his masters in EE from Purdue and I remember me telling him that I read about it and asked him if he knew some of the people there that were working on it. Perhaps that’s when Prof. Kim first released his theory?

    • Shane D.

      August 2, 2013 at 6:18 pm

      That was probably Prof. Taleyarkhan from Purdue University with his sonofusion findings:

      Very nasty, yet par for the course when it comes to anything cold fusion…. especially at the universities.

      The peer review process in all professions is a common means to ruin competitors reputations.

  6. JNewman

    August 2, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    As others have noted, at a time when the true believers supposedly have much to rejoice about, they are getting angrier, more vitriolic, more vulgar, and more irrational. All of these because the evil skeptics won’t stop attacking their sacred cows. Guys, if LENR activity is based on the truth, what do you care what some Internet gadflies have to say about it? Your venom is very suspicious. If the stuff works, it works. If not, shutting up the critics will not make it work. And don’t reply that it is the obnoxious attitude of the skeptics that riles you. People like Soo, Barker, AB, and even normally decent folk like DSM make the skeptics look like choir boys. People lose control when others attack their mothers or their religion. If LENR is not your religion and its practitioners not your priests, then be grownups and calm down.

    • dsm

      August 2, 2013 at 2:22 pm

      Look in the mirror my friend. Projection again.


      • JNewman

        August 2, 2013 at 2:55 pm

        Says the man whose posts get deleted for swearing.

        • dsm

          August 2, 2013 at 3:11 pm

          One word !
          You really don’t get it – you repeatedly blame everyone else for the arguing but you are at the heart of it. You and the other ids you post under. Not everyone sees it your way.
          And you sport are a cyberstalker along with your doppleganger – you know who.
          So on this current matter do you support what Jami said about Prof Kim – just say yes or no or simply go !

          • JNewman

            August 2, 2013 at 4:08 pm

            I don’t know what Jami said about Prof Kim, nor do I care.

            For a guy who doesn’t want to engage me, you are still awfully busy sniping away. And I am really keen to know what other ids I post under. This should be interesting.

            Man, it is truly amazing to watch you in action. For a year or two, we got along just fine. Probably because I have no interest in discussing Rohner or McKubre or any of your other pet topics. Stay away from those topics and you’re a nice guy. But now that you taken on DGT with the same snarling loyalty, anyone who questions them becomes your enemy. Sorry, pal. I’m the same rational person I was back when you thought well of me. It’s just that when you take on one of your causes, you lose it completely.

            I know you will respond with another screed about projection and me not getting it and so on. However, you should realize that your cohort now consists of Sojourner Soo, GreenWin, Ransompw, and Roger Barker. I hope their support warms your heart.

            Now please go argue with somebody else. You have become really boring in your consistent irrationality.

          • BigWillyJohnson

            August 2, 2013 at 4:38 pm

            Well Mr JNewman,

            Dont forget that our, (skeptics), funding has run out according to some other poster, i truly forget who.

            When i read it i got a good laugh. I was trying to think who the funding sources were from. Most likely from big evil: hot fusion, tarsand conglomerates, Gary Wright, Wind and solar, pavement oligarchs, ansialdo energia haters.


        • Roger Barker

          August 3, 2013 at 5:14 am

          That would be me not DSM.

    • R Hopeful

      August 2, 2013 at 3:05 pm

      Come on!, don’t generalize.

    • AB

      August 2, 2013 at 4:28 pm

      If textbooks are not your religion, calm down and let LENR researchers do their thing, as opposed to calling them names and excluding from the scientific community.

  7. Al Potenza

    August 2, 2013 at 4:57 pm

    Talking about Dr. Kim, a Google search suggested by blazespinnaker on Vortex, returns two articles. In one, blazespinnaker suggests “Defkalion” has been scrubbed because it isn’t there. On the other, Kim cites Defkalion’s Hadjichristos.

    I really do think it is very likely that, like poor Focardi, Kim has been taken in by a bogus demonstration. He certainly did nothing we know of to prevent being deceived. Nor was he really in a position to. I predict that if he had, Defkalion would not have dealt with him further.

    The search is defkalion . One of the links which comes up is this one:

    • AB

      August 2, 2013 at 5:00 pm

      I really do think it is very likely that, like poor Focardi, Kim has been taken in by a bogus demonstration.

      You are talking as if it was a fact that Focardi had been taken in by a bogus demonstration. That’s merely a fantasy of yours. A questionable fantasy I might add, considering Focardi stated that he had been directly involved in early e-cat testing.

    • Deleo77

      August 2, 2013 at 5:35 pm

      Al, I think this is where the people who aren’t skeptics have a sense of frustration with where skeptics such as yourself are coming from. Just take the following:

      Kim, a highly experienced physicist who has worked at multiple national laboratories gets taken in by a demonstration that is a scam, but he cannot see what the scam is, so he falls for it.

      Mats Lewan, who to me seems like a sharp guy, and has an engineering degree from the Royal Swedish Academy, gets fooled by demos from both Rossi and DGT.

      A team of scientists from Upsala gets fooled by multiple demos of the e-cat, in which Rossi wasn’t even in the room when that happened.

      Some of these scientists are young, some are old, some are American, some European. They are all different people. So another scientist from any background going in to view a demo is just going to lead you to say the same things as before.

      So if scientists are all being fooled by bogus demos, then maybe it will take someone from a different background to come in and uncover the hoax. And I think that person should be you. I would also nominate John Milstone (assuming you and him are two different people). Why not just go in and do your best to find what all of these other people have missed?

      You probably have researched the scam/hoax theories more than they have. Why not go in with a list of them and check off the boxes to rule each on out? It may take a skeptic to find the scam, if there is one, and you are the chief skeptic. If you don’t find evidence of a scam, I don’t think it means you are wrong about everything, it just means that you went and checked and didn’t find anything either. I don’t think it all has to end in lawsuits and major revelations. If they asked me to go and check it out I would go – just because I’m curious. I know you are too.

      • Al Potenza

        August 2, 2013 at 6:14 pm

        “Why not go in with a list of them and check off the boxes to rule each on out?”

        Go in where? You don’t really think Hadjichristos will allow me or anyone I suggest to test his device the way we want to, do you?

        As for the rest of your post, many highly successful scams which took place in the past fooled scientists and technologists. They don’t usually look for deception and even if they do, it’s not their area of expertise.

        I am quite certain that Kim took Defkalion at face value. I would be shocked if he even looked for fraud. And if he had, he most likely would not have seen it. He did not design Defkalion’s experiments and he had no control over them. That’s not his fault but endorsing them uncritically is.

        Lewan, on the other hand, tried to be cautious. But he was placed in an impromptu, unplanned set of circumstances which he did not control. He could not properly rule out fraud. It’s not a situation I would want to be in. It’s also not his fault although I wish he had been more cautious in his conclusions.

  8. Thicket

    August 2, 2013 at 5:58 pm

    John Hadjichristos does not appear to have good scientific credentials. According to his bio, his background is in the following areas;

    * Business and Systems Analyst.
    * Project Management in Banking, Transportation IT and Health Systems.

    Prior to joining Defkalion he held the following positions.

    * Business Consultant – Independent Freelancer
    * General Manager – Filoktitis Physical Rehab Center
    * Commander – Corfu Psychiatric Hospital
    * General Manager – BATS SA (IT role)
    * External Consultant – Ministry of Economy of Greece.
    * Several more jobs in Marketing, Sales and IT functions.

    With this background, it’s quite an odd jump to heading up R&D for Defkalion.

    • Shane D.

      August 2, 2013 at 6:24 pm

      Life is so easy for a pseudoskeptic. All one needs is a lack of conscious in wrecking others reputations with absolutely no proof, and a key board.

      I may try it sometimes. This believer stuff is a lot of work.

      • Al Potenza

        August 2, 2013 at 6:28 pm

        Oh stop it Shane. You know better. If you want to dispute some of the FACTS that Thicket wrote down or his conclusions, do so. Drooling on about pseudoskeptics like some demented energizer bunny doesn’t help your cause.

      • Thicket

        August 2, 2013 at 7:08 pm

        What are you mumbling about Shane? I extracted that information from the bio Hadjichristos wrote about himself. Is any of this misinformation? Do you see anything in there that qualifies him to co-author a technical paper with Professor Kim?

        Go back to your woo-woo world of make believe and fanciful delusions.

    • Deleo77

      August 2, 2013 at 6:37 pm

      Below is the quote from Kim in June 2013. I wonder if the mathematician he is talking about is Hadjichristos or someone else on the team. I find it astounding that JH could go from no physics degree to the level of physics that Kim had in his presentation. Is he self taught? How could Kim put him as a co-author of the presentation if JH didn’t have full knowledge of everything that was stated? I think to believe in DGT you just have to believe that JH is a self taught genius. And Gamberale who runs DGT Europe seems to have excellent credentials:

      “The break-through is accomplished by new comers, new breed of scientists and engineers lead by a mathematician who became an excellent scientist. This is a new wave and new paradigm change.”

      • Shane D.

        August 2, 2013 at 6:40 pm

        Yes Deleo, I am pretty sure the mathemetician turned scientist Kim refers to is Hadjichristos.

        • Thicket

          August 2, 2013 at 7:12 pm

          Just what mathematics expertise are you referring to Shane? Real data would be appreciated instead of made-up stuff.

          So Kim thinks that Hadjichristos is a mathematician turned scientist? Gosh. Self-taught scientist in under four years. The guy is a friggin’ genius. 🙂

          • Shane D.

            August 2, 2013 at 7:52 pm

            I didn’t claim he was a mathemetician. I said he was the guy Kim was referring to.

            That said, I thought Hadjichristos was a mathemetician before reading this. Maybe from the old DGT website where they listed the BODs and their quals.

            Curious Chris has the old DGT download; tonight over a few beers I’ll look again and see if it is on there.

          • CuriousChris

            August 3, 2013 at 10:34 am

            Hadjichristos is a mathematician. Look at his linked in page

            University of Patras
            Bachelor’s degree, Mathematics
            1978 – 1982
            Grade: 70

            Not a genius in Maths with that c level grade

            No reference to any scientific qualifications. the only reference to physic is a manager at a rehab

            Truly the new wave in scientists.

    • daniel maris

      August 2, 2013 at 9:42 pm

      Surely, a constant theme of LENR has been that there are difficulties with control…he might well have had a key role to play in terms of IT and feedback systems, to maintain control.

      I presume neither of us are directly acquainted with him. So my interpretation is surely as valid as yours.

  9. Jami

    August 2, 2013 at 6:34 pm

    “I imagine Kim has been in hundreds of labs and has run and witnessed more demos and experiments than anyone here. Surely, he asked a few tough questions and looked around before putting his name on a presentation with DGT.”

    First of all – Kim is a theoretical physicist. Theoretical and experimental physics overlaps, of course, but it would be wrong to assume that Kim has been involved in hundreds of experiments. I could find only two papers he co-authored involving practical experiments. What makes you think there was more? And physicists usually don’t “witness” anything. If you’re an experimental physicist, you make experiments in the privacy of your corner of the lab and document them thoroughly. Most scientists are honest about it. Other scientists reading a paper usually don’t suspect any foul play. They often disagree (violently) over methods and conclusions but they don’t expect to be lied to. We’re not talking about politicians or used-car-salemen here. When you write “the temperature at Ty(t) was 125.8 Kelvin”, they take that at face value. They wouldn’t think that you really measured 125.9. So, yes, most scientists are probably a lot easier to fool than anybody not spending their career in an ivory tower.

  10. Al Potenza

    August 2, 2013 at 6:41 pm

    Sorry for the aside but sometimes it helps to take a serious look at the past (as some say, a glance in the retrospectoscope). Here is a reminiscence from Rossi:

    “Andrea Rossi
    June 17th, 2011 at 4:38 AM
    Dear Craig:

    Mr Krivit has understood nothing of what he saw, from what I have read in his ridiculous report… This guy has seen for half an hour an E-Cat in the factory where we make many tests, made some questions to Prof. Levi, Prof. Focardi and me. Evidently has understood nothing, perhaps for the short time we gave him, also because we have to work: maybe he is angry because we had to send him away from the closed boxes and because we had to say him good bye shortly because we have to make our work. Prof. Levi has explained very well to him how the measures have been made and the importance of the issue. He has explained very well that the percentage of uncondensed water in the steam has been measured in weight (in volume is impossible, for various reasons), and he also got confirmation of this from a specialist from whom he has taken indipendent counsel. Nevertheless, he has understood nothing, or wanted not to understand, for reasons he better knows.

    Our tests have been performed by Physics Professors, who know how to make measures , and I am measuring the performance every day on 300 reactors.

    There you have it. He had 300 reactors he was measuring performance on every day! Defkalion had a bunch too. In 2011. June 2011.

    Rossi also said Levi was taking legal action against Krivit. Didn’t happen did it?

    “In any case we will start our 1 MW plant in october and we will see how it works. Of course I assure his considerations are invalid, but I want to say more: our products on the market will confirm this. Probably this journalist has been sent by someone that wants to dwarf our work. He also tried to blackmail prof. Levi, and Levi already has given to his attorney due information .


    Interesting look back, don’t you think?

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      August 2, 2013 at 7:46 pm

      Al Potenza…..Just wondering what your opinion is of Mr. Krivit. Do you consider him a valid source of scientific information and scientific opinion?

      • Al Potenza

        August 2, 2013 at 11:55 pm

        I have no idea about Krivit’s education and ability. I don’t know what you mean by “valid source”. Sources aren’t people. They are experiments published in peer reviewed journals and critiqued by experts.

        Are his scientific opinions valid? I suppose it depends on the topic. I know nothing about his favorite theory of LENR (Widom/Larsen).

        Here’s what I know about Krivit and what I like about him. When Rossi first started out, Krivit visited him with an open mind and took the time, trouble and money to go to Bologna. Rossi gave him a highly deficient demonstration and tried to bamboozle him. That made Krivit suspicious.

        Krivit interviewed Levi about what should have been an experiment that proved definitively that Rossi’s ecat really worked. But when questioned politely and properly by Krivit, Levi’s whole story fell apart! It turns out Levi had never calibrated his system and had taken no precautions to properly record data!

        Krivit then set about to observe all further Rossi tests and he enlisted something like a dozen experts to examine and analyze them. And guess what? His analysis, including the now famous “deer in the headlights” video of Rossi cheating by goosing the power on his heaters, proved without a doubt that Rossi a liar and is probably scamming investors.

        For that, I give Krivit immense credit. He is also very skeptical about the latest tests by Levi and Essen and he says why on his web site. Same with Defkalion. He’s a smart guy about those for sure.

        Hey Bernie, I keep reading all the questions you ask Rossi and I have to wonder what it is you do for a living and what sort of scientific training you have. Only if you want to discuss it, of course. If you want to reach me privately, use my email address at maryyugo[at]yahoo[dot]com.

  11. Shane D.

    August 2, 2013 at 6:47 pm

    Looks like DGT is back by popular demand:

    I’m just speculating here, but I think DGTs Hadjichristos scheduled this in anticipation that MY would be there.

    Now, since MY has invented enough excuses to back out… what will they do?

    Anyone here want to sub for Al?

    Quax, what about you?… you are close and already chosen as intermediary.

    I’d go myself, but it will take me another few days to get my PHD Physics/ calorimetry degree on line (I want to be like Al).


    • R Hopeful

      August 2, 2013 at 6:58 pm

      The press release says nothing about a demonstration. They will broadcast an interview to clarify the previous demonstration.

      • Al Potenza

        August 2, 2013 at 7:00 pm

        Actually that is a contentless quote from 22Passi which is an essentially contentless site from a misguided artist who knows nothing at all about science.

        There is no proposal in this article from Defkalion to do anything, much less any specifics about WHAT they will do, WHEN, WHO will do it, WHERE it will be done, HOW it will be done nor anything else of any interest.

        Blah! Yuch. Ridiculous the straws to which believers will cling!

        • GreenWin

          August 3, 2013 at 8:17 pm

          Al “The Weasel” Pretenza. A full on phony “scientist” and coward. THE most pathetic skeptopath in the skeptocult!! Luv ya Al!!

      • Shane D.

        August 2, 2013 at 7:46 pm

        My guess is that DGT had it all set up for Al to run the demo, but when Al stood them up they were left having to fill in the air time with cheap talk instead.

        • Al Potenza

          August 2, 2013 at 11:57 pm

          I know Shane. They are simply lost without me. They have nobody among the 1300 companies who they said expressed interest in Hyperion that they can turn to!

          I feel so sorry about that!

    • Al Potenza

      August 2, 2013 at 6:58 pm

      “Now, since MY has invented enough excuses to back out… what will they do?”

      Incredibly stupid question. They should get one of their 6 of the 10 largest companies supposedly interested in them to test their device independently and write a report. Easy, wasn’t it?

    • R Hopeful

      August 2, 2013 at 7:59 pm

  12. Al Potenza

    August 2, 2013 at 7:14 pm

    A bit more Rossifiction from the 2011 discussion:

    June 17th, 2011 at 1:08 PM
    Dear Mr. Rossi,

    I can understand your upset. But you could put the whole issue of testing to rest by allowing just one E-cat to be given to University of Upsala or any other major research center. They could test it as a “black box” using whatever method they thought best but protecting its secrets. An important part of the test would be that they have full control of both the input power and the output power measurement methods and that they provide the electrical power and water coolant. The test should be done in their lab (not yours). They should use only liquid water eliminating issues about what portion of the steam was dry vapor and what portion was liquid. If you could allow this independent testing, it would make it impossible for anyone to claim that the tests already done are in error.
    Best regards,
    M. Y.

    Andrea Rossi
    June 17th, 2011 at 3:10 PM
    Dear Maryyugo:

    We have already made enough public tests, either heating the water ( please go to read all our reports and papers on the Journal Of Nuclear Physics, or making steam. In this last case we always made the measurement of unvaporized water residue giving the result in mass. Our tests have been made with Professors of Physics working with the Universities of Bologna, Uppsala, Stockolm, with CERN, with INFN, andI think that only an imbecile can think that such Persons are not able to weight water in steam. We are receiving suggestions how to measure the water in steam, and this is like teach to a cat how to miew. By the way: the steam from the reactors which we are testing now, and that will compound the 1 MW plant, is dry.

    The steam during the interview of the clown of yesterday was totally dry. Of course, should be this not true, our Customers will be very angry: in that case, that will be an opinion which will be very important for us, while the opinion of our competitors and of their friends, for obvious reasons, have not much importance for us, if any.

    Now I have to make my 1 MW plant, then we will make other 1 MW plants for our Customers. That’s all we will do. Our Customers tests are the sole tests that count, for us. Therefore, I have absolutely not time for competitors anxious to test my Cat to make their “validation”.

    About the work that we will make with the University of Bologna and Uppsala, this will not be a public demo, but a work of Research and Development, made closed doors.

    Warm Regards,

    How time flies. Where are all those official tests the universities were supposed to do? Instead, we have some of the professors doing bad tests on their own time. You just can’t get universities officially interested in the greatest invention of the current century, can you?

    And where are all those happy customers Rossi was referring to? In June 2011?

  13. RonB

    August 2, 2013 at 8:25 pm

    Sheesh.. have we been at it that long? How depressing is that?

    • Jami

      August 2, 2013 at 8:32 pm

      Just a hair over two years. This is nothing on a Cold Fusion timescale – and a good yardstick for what awaits us in the future. Another two years from now, we’ll still be here talking about exactly the same sh*t.

    • JNewman

      August 2, 2013 at 10:07 pm

      That’s why you don’t fit the profile of the believer corps. You actually get frustrated by the lack of progress or validation of this stuff. The usual gang are gluttons for punishment. As long as they get some sort of moldy scraps from time to time, they are happy to sit patiently under the table and wait for something real to eat pretty much indefinitely.

      • RonB

        August 2, 2013 at 11:23 pm

        DC was talking about having someone watch him saw his brass balls in half after the TI show was over.

  14. daniel maris

    August 2, 2013 at 9:25 pm

    Are you guys looking forward to the Dennis Cravens demonstration of LENR at NI Week?

    • R Hopeful

      August 2, 2013 at 9:35 pm

      Elegant demonstration. Interesting that it does not require activation.
      Being able to reproduce LENR with such a simple setup is real progress.
      Does he understand what happens to the powder?

    • Jami

      August 2, 2013 at 9:45 pm

      “One sphere is hotter than the other so it must have a power source of some kind inside”

      Logic the Cravens way… outch.

    • Shane D.

      August 3, 2013 at 1:34 am

      Can this set up rule out chemical? Dr. Cravens has been at this for so long… almost certainly it does. Hard to imagine not.

      Other then that, I fail to see -after only cursory review, how the skeptics will find fault.

      Maybe our devils advocates have another opinion other then Jamis shallow and unspecific dismissal?

      • Jami

        August 3, 2013 at 11:15 am

        That was just a comment on Craven’s idiotic conclusion – not a dismissal of an experiment I haven’t even seen yet.

    • CuriousChris

      August 3, 2013 at 4:41 am

      Dennis tried to raise funds ($20K) to build a cold fusion powered car. It failed miserably people simply don’t believe.

      But here is the stupid part. If he was so confident he could build it with just $20K then he must already have a working reactor.

      Test it, prove it, and then watch the money roll in, why does he need borrowed funds to power a car?

      What is it with these LENR researchers. I mean really. One simple repeatable and undeniable test would get the world to beat a path to their door.

      Oh and his “demo”. Too easy to fake to be considered worthwhile. A simple way is a heater coil under the “active” ball it would then stay hot for a week a month a year or a century. He stated there will be NO checking of power or anything else.

      What a way to get a line up of sceptics for a scam shooting contest!

      • Jami

        August 3, 2013 at 11:22 am

        And it wasn’t like he wanted to power the car with LENR directly. What he had in mind was a normal electric car with batteries and all (an old Ford converted), and he wanted to charge the batteries through his reactor (COP 1.1 – according to his calorimetry). So he’d have used, say 1kW from the mains, produce what he thinks would have been 1.1kW thermal which he’d then convert via a small steam engine to electricity (< .2kW) and trickle charge the car with that. It would have been a colossal waste of energy compared with charging the car directly from the mains but he still thought it was a good idea.

        • CuriousChris

          August 3, 2013 at 12:29 pm

          Interestingly when talking about it he kept saying If Cold fusion works, If this and If that.

          If I was to be the devils advocate I would say he wants to convert his classic old car to be electric and the cold fusion stuff is a ruse.

          But that’s just little old sceptical me.

          • Jordi Heguilor

            August 3, 2013 at 2:19 pm

            You may laugh all you want, but you cannot deny that Dennis Craven truly has some balls…

          • Al Potenza

            August 3, 2013 at 5:18 pm

            “you cannot deny that Dennis Craven truly has some balls…”

            Indeed. He has that in common with a brass monkey.

        • Dale G. Basgall

          August 3, 2013 at 4:20 pm

          Jami your post with the numbers and content prompted me to add that; many others that have tried for over unity in a device and or methods to gain a small amount over what is consumed usually always fail to complete the device to usefulness for others. There is always that pie in the sky view.

          I find that most of them have no track record of actually manufacturing a product that has been patented or can prove success as a pre courser to validity of their new claims on their newly contended product to result sometime later in the future. Also they ask for money to develop, and that’s simply gaming.

          The figures everyone is using claiming LENR are erroneous at best. Let’s just entertain the idea that everything Rossi and Defkalion has said is true, ok. The reactor I saw would be a slight bit difficult to place safely in a mobile setting i.e. the car referenced in your post.

          Also by the time you had safety certifications and followed all good manufacturing processes you may find that with the additional “things” added to make the product sellable would cost way to much for a person to purchase over what is available to the public at present in reality.

          Also the measurements and efficiency need established “after” a product is produced and not prior using fiction for a basis of the claims in numbers. So if I take a reaction and actually pull energy from it does the reaction continue? We don’t know that but the numbers of output are absolutely based on mathematics and have nothing to do with making a device and realizing that the figures on input were good in watts but now after operation and all the bells and whistles required to make a complete product that it actually is not a viable replacement for the prior art.

  15. Loop

    August 2, 2013 at 9:28 pm

    As I said earlier, if DGT is a honest company they would accept all asked protocols and they would accept the credentials of AL/MY, even if he/she is not the PHD.
    AL/MY team should have at least one PHD.
    If AL/MY has PHD that’s even better.
    DGT knows that they have the worst reputation, which they made, now they need to fix it.

    Also its not logical to ask for identity of your nemesis and we know that they have probable cause to hurt in a different ways the whole spectrum of persons that were possibly the nemesis of their agenda.
    DGT should accept the therms and protocols, arrange the locations like mfmp lab.

    Their agenda could be bad (scammers type), or truthful (honest working project).
    In the case they are scammers, there is a high chance of probability that they would pay to someone to either hurt, disable or eventually to kill the nemesis of their project.

    If they are the honest company, they would assure to provide maximum protection and security to AL/MY.
    We can see in the words of HJ that he personally hate AL/MY with exceptionally hatred thoughts.

    In my eyes showing that they are willing to accept anything (protocols, credentials, including sending the blue prints for everything beside the “mystery box” to MFMP, of course in advanced before the Revelation of the AL/MY identity, that would show the first honest baby steps of honest company!

    I hope that DGT is honest and I hope that they have something, I don’t believe in it but I hope.
    I personally would never gave any penny into this project.

    Its strange that there are people who were not willing to get the truth.

    @AL/MY if you can please step the ball down, in following days when you accept the challenge exclude sentences like
    “Go in where? You don’t really think Hadjichristos will allow me or anyone I suggest to test his device the way we want to, do you?”

    They expect such response, they are hoping in such wording, just say I accept the challenge by my rules. And that’s it you don’t have to say much more.

  16. Bernie Koppenhofer

    August 3, 2013 at 2:17 am

    All this ink about testing LENR reactors to prove they are not scams is a huge waste of time and energy. Just wait. Soon there will be confirmation that a company is making or saving money using an LENR reactor. If you are a non believer please just disregard all LENR news. If you are a believer DO Not react to the trolls trying to discredit LENR.

    • JNewman

      August 3, 2013 at 3:17 am

      If and when the term “believer” is no longer necessary to discuss LENR, then it will be something meaningful. Real physical phenomena that are the basis of practical applications don’t require belief. I don’t have to believe in the photovoltaic effect to get power from my solar cells. They work whether I believe it or not. Nobody has to discredit LENR for it to remain a pipe dream. Somebody needs to actually make it work instead of just making a few people believe that it works. But if you prefer to continue to treat it as a tenet of a new religion, knock yourself out. Freedom of religion is available to all.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        August 3, 2013 at 7:36 pm

        JNewman…..Just stick you head in the sand and don’t read or post anything about LENR.

        • JNewman

          August 3, 2013 at 9:26 pm

          In order to please you or what? I am endlessly entertained by the behavior of LENR believers so I plan to hang around. If that bothers you, just stick your head… back in the Journal of Nuclear Physics.

    • JKW

      August 3, 2013 at 3:33 am

      As you are an accomplished poster on JoNP, you may ask him if he could actually buy you that “pizza and bier”, since the time is ripe.
      Good endeavors with giving Rossi even more useful advice how he can use his “technology”.

      • Frank

        August 3, 2013 at 4:14 pm

        … and Bernie,
        you may also want Frank Acland on ecw if he has already organized his trip to visit a 1MW plant in operation, or why does it take that long to set the container (the one who rested in Rossi garage for two years for exhaustive testing), hook it up (just a small water pipe, a steam pipe and a power cable) and switch it on.

        Andrea Rossi
        June 1st, 2013 at 8:44 AM
        Richard M Wilson:
        Our 1 MW plants in opeartion will be visitable in short term.
        Warm Regards,

        • Al Potenza

          August 3, 2013 at 5:20 pm

          As far as I know, nobody has *ever* seen and reported a so-called megawatt plant running. Except for the November 2011 “demo” which of course ran one from a huge diesel generator and failed to provide any measurement of input and output. TWO YEARS later and Rossi seems no closer to showing off his “technology” to the eagerly awaiting fans and public.

          • EDT

            August 3, 2013 at 5:37 pm

            Al Potenza,
            I have been reading your comments since I started following the Rossi saga in mid-2011 as a believer. As the sites on LENR/Rossi and Defkalion flourished and my time decreased, I started reading your posts first for an update on the topic. They turned out always to summarize the actual relevance of the latest claims in relation to the basic issues: the need for repeatability and independency of the tests, the absurdity of claims on a working world history-changing machine still being kept in a garage. To read you has been in fact a pleasure. As a reader-only I thought to pay you a little tribute – subjective and worthless as it is – for the precision and brilliant essentiality of your contributions which makes to me this blog – any blogs related to this topic – worth reading. Mr.Ransom is right: your logic and your style speak more than any otherwise documented credentials.

          • Al Potenza

            August 3, 2013 at 8:48 pm

            Thanks EDT. That’s very kind. Want to have some fun? Download the old Defkalion forum or browse through all of Rossi’s idiotic and contradictory posts on his misnamed blog:


            And thanks to Shane D, Defkalion’s deleted forum:


          • Shane D.

            August 3, 2013 at 11:02 pm


            I’ve been trying to hint to you that CC put that download here for us… Not me.

          • Al Potenza

            August 3, 2013 at 11:50 pm

            Hey Shane, it (the Defkalion download) was under your sign on on Peter’s blog, no?

          • dsm

            August 4, 2013 at 6:17 am

            Well well
            MaryYugo / Al Potenza is so shaken by the attacks on his credibility (in tatters) that he now conjures up new ids to heap praise on himself.
            Ahhhmazing but totally in character.
            Hey lets have a celebrity roast of Al Potenza ? – that would be funny.
            Cheers DSM

    • Dale G. Basgall

      August 3, 2013 at 2:37 pm

      Bernie the exhibits of e-cat taken alongside the claims of Mr. Rossi started out appearing as if they didn’t match, the product, the claims of over unity, and the claiming of the technology in a way that a claimed self destruct ability was “designed in” the e-cat.

      When things started rolling along before Defkalion made their move to flick Rossi off like a tick claims were being made with no apparent parallel to reality and factually happening. So if you had followed this from the onset you would fully understand why it is hard to continue to entertain flapping lips.

      So testing reactors is only to compare what is claimed by the claimants to what the so called “reactors” are actually producing in fact.

      The total reality of this situation regarding discrepancies in claims and performance of the claimed products is a scam no doubt.

      So the scam is simply from the human side of parties involved with a motive to continue making claims and not producing work.

      Think of it like you are going in and purchasing a new car, it starts in the showroom but outside the sales door nothing apparently is happening. You can’t open the hood and find 100 more cars that won’t start outside the showroom floor along with 100 more customers that are now locked out of the showroom but had paid their money for what they assumed were working cars and largely based on what the salesman had told them along with a noise from the car they heard in the showroom.

      So their is no waste of ink here, just others wanting some type of tangible evidence that what is claimed by any person regarding a “working” LENR Reactor is substantiated by factual display of someone using the device claimed.

      There is no working LENR device, never has been, and highly doubtful you will ever see or use one in the next 5 years for anything other than amusement.

      When the smart guys like Storms, McKubre, Focardi, Pon’s, Fleishman, Zawodny, Miles, Miley and others along with the organizations they have worked for come forward and make statements they determine as fact for creating a continued LENR reaction chain, “then” we know we are on the LENR path in fact.

      Fact is at present the scam by Rossi is simply selling something imaginary based on what he interprets to be the outcome sometime later and the opposite actually happened. Nothing is produced and nothing is working as a useful device.

      Defkalion CEO verbally stated he used dishonest means to “steal” bogus claims by Rossi and that he also had a self destruct “engineered into” their product based on stolen IP illegally obtained. This not only falls within a scam scenario but carries some liabilities if they ever come up with a product that actually performs as they claim.

      Also the only confirmation needed for sales of a product is someone actually using the device that is offered for sale to the general public as well as a US Patent application that consists of facts required to attain a patent on a product.

      Based on the facts to date regarding no product available and compared to the claims of Rossi and Defkalion can you not see the possibility of scamming the public? If this is not scamming in your definition then that’s your opinion.

      Factually their are times in the reaction that it appears to be LENR as claimed, the working experimenters will develop this more it appears, and yes someday it is possible that LENR will be working with an electrical generating system and in a useful patented package available to anyone having the money to purchase it.

      The device is not evident today, nothing is available today as fact to back up claims made, so as of today Rossi and Defkalion have scammed to get this far.

  17. Jordi Heguilor

    August 3, 2013 at 8:05 pm

    The easiest person to fool is the one shown what he wants to see.

    JH told Kim that his theory was finally vindicated, and Ol’ Kim was sold.

    Why do I say this? Because Kim suggested adding MORE Deuterium to a reactor that has NONE.

    Someone said: “Circumstantial evidence can be very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk”.

    • CuriousChris

      August 4, 2013 at 1:43 am

      Lol never heard the “trout in milk” before Luv it!

    • dsm

      August 4, 2013 at 6:12 am

      Folks – Jordi blows both feet off while mishandling his blunderbuss gun.
      The DGT reactor has deuterium impurities in the H.
      Prof Kim IN HIS SLIDES explains this but of course you didn’t read them and it is pretty clear that if you did you are incapable of grasping what is in them.
      Crawl back into your bowl of milk my friend

      • Jordi Heguilor

        August 4, 2013 at 8:28 pm

        @ BDSM. I know what Ol’ Kim says on his slides. My point (that you managed to miss, though it is not so complicated) is that Kim’s slides have nothing to do with what DGT said about their reactor.

        • dsm

          August 4, 2013 at 10:29 pm

          Whaaat ?
          Sorry but you are now talking gobbledygook. You are pretending you never said what you said. Let me remind you …
          “Why do I say this? Because Kim suggested adding MORE Deuterium to a reactor that has NONE.”
          Ahhhmazing !.

  18. GreenWin

    August 3, 2013 at 8:13 pm

    World’s largest builder-operator of nuclear power plants EDF throws in towel and bails out of U.S. market. Losing $6B in a couple years hurts even the biggest players. What are they investing in instead of centralized power plants and “smart grids??” Distributed Energy Resources.

    Let’s see, that’s two green wins to date: hot fusion – financing terminated; US fission plants – financing terminated. Gotta love a Terminator!

    • Al Potenza

      August 3, 2013 at 8:44 pm


      I don’t see how any of that has any effect whatever on cold fusion’s reality.

      You are becoming the loca master of the non-sequitur.

      And obviously you have no influence on either item. You’re simply a troll who writes contentless posts on internet forums.

    • Jordi Heguilor

      August 3, 2013 at 9:31 pm

      Is this your logical process, GreenWin?

      Hot fusion does not work.
      Cold fusion is not Hot Fusion.
      Cold Fusion works.

      This guy Aristoteles wants to have a word with you…

      • GreenWin

        August 3, 2013 at 9:48 pm

        Aristoteles? Is that one or two guys??

        • Jordi Heguilor

          August 3, 2013 at 10:23 pm

          He’s in the Board of Directors of Defkalion.

          • Shane D.

            August 3, 2013 at 10:54 pm

            That’s a good one!

  19. daniel maris

    August 3, 2013 at 8:45 pm

    While we can accept perhaps that Kim could be hoaxed by some clever Randi-style magic, there’s no way the “mathematician” could hoax him about his knowledge of physics – surely Kim would quickly detect if someone was pretending to knowledge they did not really possess.

    • Jami

      August 3, 2013 at 9:04 pm

      He should add that to his resume. “I spent my life managing hospitals and writing scifi novels but I am in fact a brilliant physicist. I talked for an unknown amount of time to Prof. Kim about a machine I told him I had invented and he didn’t call me a stupid mathematician afterwards.” Very convincing. Daniel, has it ever occurred to you that Kim (unlike us – even unlike you) does NOT suspect Hadjichristos to be a fraudster in the first place? He doesn’t doubt things John is telling him about his machine – so why would he doubt what he tells him about his knowledge? Surely he didn’t prepare any test questions about the basics just to establish that this guy isn’t pulling the wool over his eyes. Why should he? Focardi was equally careless with Rossi – even after he’d seen him clumsily doing an elementary school grade computation on a pocked calculator. Giving impressions is essential to scammers. Abagnale successfully posed as an air line pilot in real cockpits surrounded by professionals. THAT was difficult. Telling Kim that his theory actually works should be child’s play in comparison.

      • daniel maris

        August 3, 2013 at 10:11 pm

        Not very convincing.

        Focardi, by his own and Rossi’s account, worked on prototypes over an extended period – at least a couple of years (very un-scam like behaviour by the way, being so patient).

        As for Kim and JH, are you suggesting they just exchanged a couple of sentences? e.g. “There’s the machine, it’s working as you can see.” “Yes, very impressive.” “It’s all to do with the protons,and the neutrons, and the electrons of course.” “Yes, of course. That’s a very persuasive account. Goodbye.”

        There would have been an extensive and wide-ranging conversation. Of that we can be sure, or at least we can say it is more than reasonable to expect such an exchange to have taken place.

        • Deleo77

          August 3, 2013 at 10:36 pm

          I would really like to see a hard hitting interview with Kim about DGT. He has picked up his role in collaborating with them, and it would be good if he could be asked some pointed questions. There is the interview below that has some good ones, but I think he needs to go further with his answers.

          To Kim’s credit, in his answers below he does not seem like an old senile has-been. He seems sharp, lucid, and articulate. That being said, now that he has made a public presentation with DGT and Purdue Univeristy at the top of the slides, perhaps some more direct questions are in order. It is too bad that more media outlets are not following this, so someone could really engage with Kim a la 60 Minutes.

          In my opinion Kim and Hagelstein (from MIT) are the two most accomplished scientists putting their names on LENR research. Surely there are others (Storms, McKubre etc.) but these two really stick out in my mind. Here’s what I would ask Kim:

          1. What specifically did you do to rule out fraud when you witnessed the Hyperion demonstration? Can you completely rule out fraud?

          2. You said you met Hadjichristos at NI Week in Aug. 2012, and he claimed to have a device that backed up your theories. How many conversations have you had with him over the past year about it? And are you amazed that a man with no formal education in physics could have such an in-depth understanding of your theories? Did he work directly with you on the equations and theories that were in your presentation?

          3. Do you think it is necessary to test the Hyperion in an independent lab for you to be certain that it is truly a working LENR device?

          4. Do you know what the ingredients are inside the reactor, or is DGT keeping that a secret from you?

          5. Are you a scientific advisor to DGT at this point? What is your role with the company?

          The existing interview:

          • Deleo77

            August 3, 2013 at 10:48 pm

            And just to add to my post, it would be great if this blog or ECW could do an interview with Kim along these lines. There could be 10 top questions that people could put forward and Kim would answer them – hopefully. Kim’s email address is right on his faculty page on the Purdue site.

        • Al Potenza

          August 4, 2013 at 5:20 pm

          “Focardi, by his own and Rossi’s account, worked on prototypes over an extended period – at least a couple of years (very un-scam like behaviour by the way, being so patient). “

          I don’t recall anyone accusing poor Focardi of scamming. It seems Rossi scammed him. And probably, in similar fashion, Defkalion scammed Nelson, Kim, Dunn and probably others. They didn’t succeed in scamming Dick Smith, however. Oh, they tried. To the merry tune of a million dollars. But he didn’t go for it.

    • Shane D.

      August 3, 2013 at 10:58 pm

      I don’t know about that Daniel… until now the skeptics here probably thought I had a high level of physics background, but I really don’t know squat.

      If I can fool these guys, surely Hadjichristos can fool Kim.

      • daniel maris

        August 4, 2013 at 12:29 am

        You’re assuming the people here are high level physicists like Kim! LOL Not the case!!

        • JNewman

          August 4, 2013 at 1:03 am

          As for your comment, Daniel, would you know a high-level physicist from a janitor if they spewed a bunch of pseudoscience at you? I doubt it.

      • JNewman

        August 4, 2013 at 1:02 am

        Shane, is there some reason you think people thought you had a high level of physics background? Not trying to be insulting, but where did that come from?

        • Shane D.

          August 4, 2013 at 2:13 am

          Come on Newman!… Daniel picked up on it. Maybe it is a believer/skeptic thing where skeptics simply have no sense of humor… sort of like Swedes.

          If I were that smart Al would have targeted me long ago. He attacks his “supposed” colleagues, and loves us “other” ones.

          Otherwise just having some fun. Not to say I don’t have a big ego. That my friend isn’t dependent on IQ… thank goodness.

  20. GreenWin

    August 3, 2013 at 9:46 pm

    Fission Funding Fading

    The sudden exit of world’s leading EDF nuclear from its U.S. partner Excelon and JV with Constellation Energy Nuclear Group, CENG follows on the heels of an unprecedented closing of FOUR U.S. nuclear power plants in 2013. Like rats off a sinking ship.

    Fission & hot fusion failures the last three years are stunning. That’s just fine as it is clearing the opening for Distributed Energy Resources (District and local CCHP, FCs, solar, and LENR). Funding pulled from HF and fission will be re-directed to DER. Good News Abounds!!

  21. Jordi Heguilor

    August 3, 2013 at 10:34 pm

    Since it’s a Slow News Day, I’d like to go off-topic. One thing that called my attention while looking at pics of ICCF was how old the presenters looked.

    So I did a little experiment (that I encourage y’all to try): I did a Google Images search for “International Conference on…” and randomly selected stuff related to science.

    And, yep, people looked, on average, younger. And then it dawned on me: these guys were 25 to 45 years old scientists in 1989. They believed in P&F and CF and had carried the torch for a quarter of a century.

    The Believers have gotten this 100% wrong: it’s these guys, not Big Science, who are sclerotic and set on their ways and unable to see the evidence. The evidence being 24 years of failure. So by now they are willing to risk their reputation endorsing – and cheering for – DGT. Rossi missed a golden opportunity to have his own demo at ICCF. If DGT got Kim, Rossi would have gotten Miley or such.

  22. Jordi Heguilor

    August 3, 2013 at 11:29 pm

    @ Shane. Since I’m no spring chicken myself, I’ll give a wide latitude to what “young guns” means but… how many “young guns” do you count pursuing this world changing technology?

    They seem to me to be below… “replacement numbers”, if you know what I mean.

    • Shane D.

      August 4, 2013 at 12:35 am

      True, there is relatively little infusion into the field. Ruby made that article to try and stir up more interest from the young guns, giving an illusion of numbers and the career safety that entails.

      Hopefully with the increasing number of quality research taking place, better results, and the growing publicity there will be an increasing influx.

      If not I guess we will have to depend on the Italians and Swedes to continue the discipline as they have.

  23. GreenWin

    August 3, 2013 at 11:38 pm

    Some people are unable to accept the end of their outdated fiefdoms. They are shills, despots, criminals, politicians, overseers; they suffer cognitive dissonance – the inability to face the real world. Here’s an example:

    “EDF’s CFO Thomas Piquemal says, “this will be the third and what I hope is the last chapter of our U.S. adventure with Constellation.”

    Constellation is owned by Chicago-based Exelon, the largest operator of nuclear plants in the U.S., and EDF, its partner, is the world’s largest nuclear operator. EDF is quitting the partnership.

    Exelon stock has plummeted 25% the past year as investor skepticism sky rockets. Guys here pretend this has nothing to do with the wholesale replacement of fission energy. But the people who run ELFORSK AB know better.

  24. Jordi Heguilor

    August 4, 2013 at 12:07 am

    @ Deleo

    It would be great if we could get the answers from Kim that you propose. I’m well aware of his background, but in the absence of better information we have to judge him by his “Deuterium comment”.

  25. JNewman

    August 4, 2013 at 1:10 am

    It is quite amusing how all you believers worship at the altar of any physicist who supports your belief in LENR. It is amusing because you clearly have no respect for physicists in general at all. You believe that anyone can read physics papers and judge their merit. Anyone can determine the validity of experimental results. Anyone can make breakthroughs in physics without knowing any. And, of course, any physicist who doesn’t buy into your belief system is corrupt, ignorant, or just plain stupid. You folks have nothing but disdain for the entire discipline of physics (and chemistry, for that matter) except for the case of the few scientists who promote LENR. But those guys… they are gods right up there with Newton, Maxwell and Einstein. Priceless!

    • GreenWin

      August 4, 2013 at 1:43 am

      “And, of course, any physicist who doesn’t buy into your belief system is corrupt, ignorant, or just plain stupid.”

      There’s that prickly rage again. You’re referring to Ernie Moniz?? Naw, he’s a MIT hot fusionist. Look how productive that’s turned out. Don’t be so negative JN. Maybe you’ll get a job in LENR some day. 🙂

      • JNewman

        August 4, 2013 at 4:10 am

        Do I get to wear a white lab coat?

        • GreenWin

          August 4, 2013 at 4:18 am

          Yes! The one the sleeves buckle behind your back. Or, an orange jump suit. Your choice!

          • JNewman

            August 4, 2013 at 12:50 pm

            So THAT is what kind of jobs there will be in LENR. I can see why the field appeals to you so much.

          • GreenWin

            August 4, 2013 at 8:05 pm

            On contrary, this type protective wear is reserved for the corrupt of body and soul – i.e. the cult of skeptopathic deniers. On the positive side, you can request a custom perp number on the jump suit! 666 would make your thumpers happy!!

        • RonB

          August 4, 2013 at 3:11 pm

          Lol.. At work anytime we would venture out into the prototype area we would always have to wear these blue ESD lab jackets and straps on our shoes.

    • AB

      August 4, 2013 at 11:16 am

      It is quite amusing

      Whatever you say. Your post reads like envy and bitterness. If you truly believe that there is nothing to LENR, why do you react in such a way in the first place? And if you do believe that LENR is real then you should happy about how it’s coming along.

      • JNewman

        August 4, 2013 at 12:38 pm

        Envy and bitterness? Envy of whom? Bitter about what? I can’t even hazard a guess at what you are thinking.

        As to how I react, I have little reaction to any LENR “news” per se. I am still waiting to see some convincing evidence that there is really such a phenomenon. Perhaps some day there will be some, but I hold out little hope for the current bunch of practitioners who seem to have abandoned any shreds of the scientific method in their desperation to hit the jackpot.

        No, AB, my interest here is entirely in the antics of people such as yourself who have adopted this little corner of pseudoscience with a religious zeal and tenacity that is amazing to watch. Watching you all defend anything and anyone remotely supportive of LENR with the dedication normally reserved for one’s own children is really something to see.

        I have to admit that I have only been watching this circus for a little more than two years, but at least over that time period, I have no clue what you are talking about with regard to how LENR is “coming along”. As far as I can tell, it hasn’t been going anywhere.

        • AB

          August 4, 2013 at 8:48 pm

          No, AB, my interest here is entirely in the antics of people such as yourself who have adopted this little corner of pseudoscience with a religious zeal and tenacity that is amazing to watch. Watching you all defend anything and anyone remotely supportive of LENR with the dedication normally reserved for one’s own children is really something to see.

          You skeptics are no less dedicated, so your comment is quite ironic.

          I think you skeptics are just not honest with yourselves. You have your reasons to dislike the claims or modus operandi of the involved, but deep inside you don’t fully exclude that it could be real, and that’s why you spend so much time here, and so much energy fighting the prospective of it being real.

          Oh and, if “true believer” means someone who is cautiously optimistic, adopts a wait and see attitude, and trusts real scientists with real experience to some degree (no pseudonyms), then I’m guilty of being a true believer.

          • JNewman

            August 5, 2013 at 1:10 am

            That certainly sums you up, AB. You are cautiously optimistic and have adopted a wait and see attitude. One does have to wonder what someone who has been reeled in hook, line and sinker and has bought the whole deal looks like. Must be scary. I guess they don’t spend their time on blogs. They are off on a mountaintop making burnt offerings to Rossi or some such thing.

            But much thanks to you and GW for you concern for my welfare. Imagine being so conflicted and not even knowing it! Good thing I have you guys to illuminate my inner demons.

      • GreenWin

        August 4, 2013 at 8:39 pm

        AB, JNewman is an old school guy who hates to see his world crumble around him. It is happening on a daily basis. His reaction, and that of his cult of comrades, is rage. Oh, he tries to hide it, to sound calm and controlled, but the envy and bitterness you detect – is rage.

        JN has lived a sheltered academic life, so much so he has admitted to failing to learn the hero of Newtonian physics, Sir Isaac himself, was a closet alchemist. This is well known by scholars and un-sheltered scientists – but deeply disillusioning to old timers like J… He deserves a prayer.

  26. GreenWin

    August 4, 2013 at 1:38 am

    40 Nuclear Power Plants Face Early Retirement

    What makes the announced retirements of the plants so significant is that virtually none of them were predicted in the U.S. Energy Information Administration’s (EIA) 2013 Annual Energy Outlook — released in April — even when one of the announcements came in the fall of 2012.

    “Apparently DOE can not even forecast events adverse to its nuclear imperatives when those events have already occurred,” said Peter Bradford, a Vermont Law professor and former member of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.” THIS is effen hilarious!!!

    Bradford added that the 2012 EIA Annual Energy Outlook was “even less reality-based,” noting that the EIA predicted in its low estimate that no reactor other than Oyster Creek were forecasted to close until 2029.

    The report concludes that nuclear reactors “have never been competitive” at any stage of their existence.

    Think DOE’s Secretary Ernie J. Moniz is feeling ambushed? Or bound and gagged by failed nuke policy??

  27. CuriousChris

    August 4, 2013 at 2:06 am

    The most persistent quality I see in Believers is their inability to see flaws in the behaviour of the people they idolise. While at the same time picking up on tiny flaws of those they see as opposed to their views. This tunnel vision makes it impossible for them to see the “trout in the milk” (thanks Jordi)

    A believer cannot see that say A retired Physicists is “consulted” over a period of time about his favourite subject. he gladly gives away what he considers good information and the consultee says “when I get this working. and its going very well. You will get equal credit!”

    The physicists ego is suitably groomed. He has now placed his reputation firmly on the line and cannot let himself consider that he has been conned all this time.

    In the meantime the scammer has built up a backstory to his little scam which will convince many people to believe. “It must be true. Look how long he was working with this eminent professor”.

    Don’t be SO GULLIBLE. Building as solid a back story as is possible is part of the entire con. Without a convincing back story the con would fail in short order.

    It’s a part Rossi is particularly good at and people fall for it hook line and trout.

    • Shane D.

      August 4, 2013 at 2:31 am

      Yes CC, you skeptics are from Venus and we believers are from Mars. Yes again, we are different… just like women and us men, are.

      By the way, when will you ladies ever get your act together?

      • Jordi Heguilor

        August 4, 2013 at 2:56 am

        Actually, Shane, it’s us who have been right for a couple of millenia. There were a couple of misses, but compared with the thousands of free energy misses…

        • Shane D.

          August 4, 2013 at 3:33 am


          I only came in on this one. None before so consider me a neophyte.

          This appears to me to have some substance. Perhaps later on you will prove right, me wrong, and I will have to reevaluate. But I honestly feel something substantive is taking place.

          Certainly LENR, and a little less so… albeit still confident, the LENR + players.

          So how many before me has little relevance. Still, to me, even odds minimum.

        • CuriousChris

          August 4, 2013 at 9:42 am

          I don’t think I would go so far as a couple of Millenia.

          It wasn’t too long ago science argued the universe rotated around the earth and developed some extremely complicated arguments as to why some planets reversed their direction regularly.

          The scientific method is an evolving thing and it has become an extremely reliable tool.

          • Jordi Heguilor

            August 4, 2013 at 4:34 pm

            Chris, I was not referring to the scientific method, which is relatively recent, but to the failure of free energy schemes, specifically perpetuum mobile. OK, since the 8th century, then. The Perpetual Motion article in Wikipedia is a fascinating read.

            “In 1870, E.P. Willis of New Haven, Connecticut made money from a “proprietary” perpetual motion machine. A story of the overly complicated device with a hidden source of energy appears in Scientific American article “The Greatest Discovery Ever Yet Made.” Investigation into the device eventually found a source of power that drove it.[14]” Plus ca change…

      • dsm

        August 4, 2013 at 6:08 am

        CC has long had a short circuit in his brain. Truly (not joking). In the area that contains the logic processes there is a short between where he stores ‘known facts’ and where he stores personal opinion (and lots of biases).
        When he thinks he is producing a ‘known fact’ the short circuit will also present his internalized opinions and he duly espouses them as ‘known facts’.
        No amount of online therapy has been able to help him. If one reminds him of past episodes of presenting his ‘known facts’ that proved to be biased opinions he ignores it.
        His best hope is that one day the short fails and normalcy of logic returns. But in 18 months there have been no signs of this.

        • JNewman

          August 5, 2013 at 1:12 am

          For those looking for guidance in how to behave properly on a blog, the preceding was an example of “playing the ball” as opposed to “playing the man”. Please take careful note.

          • dsm

            August 5, 2013 at 1:28 am

            Yes please do – you are hearing from JNewman who is the “play the man” expert so he knows this topic very well. I humbly thank him for teaching me how to do it. LOL.


          • JNewman

            August 5, 2013 at 1:47 am


          • dsm

            August 5, 2013 at 3:20 am

            QED -> JNewman is expert at play the man.
            C’mon JN do you need a potty break ? – I can wait ? big important business like this is so often hard to get out.

          • JNewman

            August 5, 2013 at 3:29 am

            Is there a point to your childish behavior? If this your attempt to “get the better of me”, it isn’t working. I can stand endless amounts of this sort of puerile name calling. But if it makes you feel good, by all means keep going. Perhaps you can send copies to your grand kids. They will be so proud.

          • DSM

            August 5, 2013 at 7:27 am

            Potty time over ? Good boy !
            Now seeing you must always have the last say, please feel free to do so but wipe your tail before playing with the keyboard. You really want to be sure that the crap only ends up on the net.

          • JNewman

            August 5, 2013 at 3:07 pm

            Your sophisticated wit is a fitting end to our dialog, unless you feel the need to provide even more.

      • CuriousChris

        August 4, 2013 at 8:52 am

        Shane. If you want to address a subject do it with some substance its easy to blather on about nothing.

        If we haven’t got our act together please cite examples.

        While we sceptics may have differing opinions on what the motives might be and have our favourite speculations on how the scam might be achieved. as to the need to validate their outrageous claims I think we are all in accord.

        If you cannot cite examples or even simple reasoning which can be challenged or accepted, what you are doing is trying to steer the conversation off track.

        Please don’t retort simply for the sake of it.

        If your ego is bruised then perhaps its because some of my words rang true.

        • RonB

          August 4, 2013 at 11:47 am


          A person inclined to question or doubt all accepted opinions.

          Chris, It would seem to me that by saying, as fact, that they are frauds means you’re not a skeptic.
          I consider Shane a skeptic because he has some doubt that they are on the level.

          • JNewman

            August 4, 2013 at 12:55 pm

            After watching Rossi’s antics for two years, it is pretty difficult not to form a pretty strong opinion. Being skeptical does not mean never making up your mind at all. In order to be a Rossi believer, you need to decide to simply ignore at least 95% of everything he has said or done and only base your opinion on what remains. That isn’t skepticism. That is being a sap.

          • RonB

            August 4, 2013 at 3:01 pm

            Being skeptical does not mean never making up your mind at all.

            You can take that up with Websters.

          • CuriousChris

            August 5, 2013 at 12:20 am

            Sceptical – means to not take anyone’s word for it.

            It was by being sceptical and asking the questions that I have decided both DGT and Rossi are fraudulent.

            Being a sceptic does not preclude making decisions. About Rossi’s claims I am not sceptical. I am convinced. That goes for DGT as well.

            As for LENR itself yes I am sceptical. I have not concluded yet that it is false in fact I cannot make that conclusion. But I am convinced it is filled with people who do not seem to want to look too hard.

            It is a very disparate group of researchers they do not appear to want to work together to a definitive conclusion. instead they pat each others back once a year and refuse to single out the likes of Rossi for outrageous claims, this damages their reputation enormously.

            Some go so far as to declare almost any anomalous event as somehow LENR/fusion related.

  28. Jami

    August 4, 2013 at 10:52 am

    “Focardi, by his own and Rossi’s account, worked on prototypes over an extended period – at least a couple of years (very un-scam like behaviour by the way, being so patient).”

    I don’t get it. How does that support your point?

  29. Jami

    August 4, 2013 at 11:50 am

    There is an interesting post from robiD over on ECW:

    “… Gamberale said that there are some critical issues in the measurements that has been done until now on the Hyperion reactor.
    Defkalion Europe, as a client of Defkalion Green Technologies, has made the decision to “freeze” (the exact word used by Gamberale) the relationship with DGT as long as these critical issues won’t be solved.
    According to many _rumors_ (actually well grounded and reported on Defkalion Europe asked independent tests on the Hyperion R5 reactor to several testers groups and, further _speculations_ say that some groups have found out a problem in the water flow reading. It’s not clear whether this is a problem in the functioning of the flow meter or something else but, given the particular problem (the flow meter worked correctly during calibrations), other hypothesis can’t be ruled out.”

    That would make sense. We said from the outset (well, some of us) that the output looked and sounded like nothing anywhere near half a liter of water per minute at 150+ C. Unfortunately Google translate does the usual crappy mess when trying to translate the 22passi article and the comments (and of course it can’t translate the interview). Anybody here who understands Italian?

    • RonB

      August 4, 2013 at 3:05 pm

      Hopefully as part of a retest they will collect all the output of the reactor and measure it carefully.

    • spacegoat

      August 4, 2013 at 3:52 pm

      Will Believers be calling Defkalion Europe pathoskeptics for calling into question DGT’s magic show?

      Where is the “cooperation with scientists” that DGT claim they are interested in? Only a black box test by independent qualified scientists will allow the mass ranks of believers and sceptics to stand down. Please DGT, we don’t care about the “greatest invention since the Stone Age anymore.”

    • Shane D.

      August 4, 2013 at 4:16 pm

      Very telling comments by Gamberale. Obviously it shows this is no imported scam scheme whereby willing abettors (licensees) knowingly take a fake reactor and sell to unwitting buyers.

      As with Hydrofusion holding Rossis feet to the fire after their tester found issues with the hotcat, it appears the DGT licensees are equally cautious and have independently tested the hyperion.

      “Some” of the testers Defkalion Europe contracted with took issue with the input flow, which could have a tremendous negative, or even a positive one, on the COP calculations.

      Rightfully so, DE has suspended collaborations with potential buyers until the issue is resolved.

      For once this does sound like a normal technology development. They always have glitches and set-backs and we are seeing one now… just like Rossi encountered and overcame with his hotcat when Hydrofusion insisted on an independent test.

      Now there will be some rigorous testing done again by DE, and I think we can trust, based on their actions now, that they will evaluate the hyperion fairly and honestly.

      As we have said before… the licensees are pushing the agenda and one way or the other this will play out soon.

      • Al Potenza

        August 4, 2013 at 5:37 pm

        ” it appears the DGT licensees are equally cautious and have independently tested the hyperion. “

        How do you get that from an essentially incomprehensible web comment on some Italian artists’ ridiculous web site — a silly web site that normally supports Rossi’s absurd claims?

        I don’t doubt that Defkalion are liars. But so, it seems from past interviews, are Rossi and Stremmenos and this could easily be from them.

        I doubt that anyone has competently and independently ever tested Hyperions. I think Defkalion knows they don’t work as advertised and is not giving the devices out. Just a guess.

        Similarly, I doubt that Rossi gives out ecats. I suspect all Hydrofusion did was to witness another dog and pony show, perhaps one that didn’t work as well as one Levi put on for Essen and the Swedes.

        • Shane D.

          August 5, 2013 at 1:41 am


          You stick to your claims of being a calorimetry expert and leave the reading between the lines to me.

          “Incomprehensible” is in the eye of the beholder!

          By the way, you have often stated -just very recently in fact, that this was, in your opinion, an inclusive scam whereby DGT and it’s licensees were mutually culpable.

          How do you feel now with Defkalion Europes actions?

          • Al Potenza

            August 5, 2013 at 7:08 am

            “By the way, you have often stated -just very recently in fact, that this was, in your opinion, an inclusive scam whereby DGT and it’s licensees were mutually culpable.”

            I don’t recall saying that. I don’t even remember knowing that Defkalion had licensees.

            “How do you feel now with Defkalion Europes actions?”

            No opinion yet. I am not clear on what they plan to do exactly.

      • Jami

        August 4, 2013 at 5:48 pm

        “For once this does sound like a normal technology development.”

        Almost. A normal business would probably not shoot itself in the foot by making doubts like that public. If Gamberale was convinced that DGT had a working product and just a minor detail about a measurement was in question, he’d call them or write an e-mail and ask for clarification. If he had any talent at all at running a business, he would probably not talk about it on the radio unless he’d tried everything else already and it didn’t trigger the response he was expecting and the detail in dispute wasn’t a minor one. I also couldn’t make sense of what Hydrofusion did concerning the supposedly wrong input power measurement. Say it really went down like we’re told – then what made them change their mind? The Levi paper? Levi used exactly the same equipment which was used for the Penon report and (supposedly) shown to be wrong by whoever Hydrofusion hired to make their own test.

        • Al Potenza

          August 4, 2013 at 5:58 pm

          I think that the main participants in Defkalion and Rossi fiascos are all members of the Church of Flowery but Incomprehensible Speech and that they read only the Journal of Irreproducible Results.

          • Deleo77

            August 4, 2013 at 6:22 pm

            A post on this Italian blog came up a few days ago but it kind of got lost with the MY/JH testing back and forth. I do wonder also if the post from MFMP about a published independent test, the link below, and the Gamberale quote are all tied together. On the face of it, it could mean that there is a true scam and these scientists through an indendent test uncovered it. I hope not, but it would mean the toughest accusations from the skeptics would indeed be true…

            It was posted on ECW that this guy’s blog named Daneile Passerini, that a group of Italian scientists had access to the DGT reactor and saw the scam in it. Again, just internet conjecture and speculation, and it could be complete BS. But maybe worth keeping an eye on.


          • JKW

            August 4, 2013 at 7:44 pm

            Passerini has a history of endorsing Rossi’s BS well beyond Frank Acland’s abilities. It is predictable for him to criticize Defkalion’s version of the same BS wrapped in a new foil. DGT was Rossi’s traitor, if you care to remember, or do the research if you are new to the story.

        • Shane D.

          August 5, 2013 at 1:59 am


          A normal and “honest” business would do exactly what DE did. Especially so when that business has little capital at stake, a unique situation such as this, and owners of such high caliber; i.e. an already successful scientist such as Gamberale.

          As to the Hydrofusion issue you refer to and what made them change their mind bad to good?:

          Well, if they had a problem before on their experts recommendation, yet they have no problem now after a rigorous 9 day test by 7 esteemed scientists, and they still are with Rossi…

          And even more -ready to showcase the ecat this fall in Sweden… is there anything wrong that I should be concerned with?

          • R Hopeful

            August 5, 2013 at 6:21 am

            You should be concerned that Defkalion Europe has “frozen” the relationships with all his partners, including customers, as Gamberale confirmed. Everybody waits.

            That means, “we have screwed up, maybe we have screwed up big time. We are trying to find out if we can still deliver”

          • Jami

            August 5, 2013 at 7:24 am

            Yes, Shane, everything wrong – as usual – but I guess you won’t concern yourself no matter what. The “rigorous” test by 7 “esteemed” scientists had exactly the same flaws as the one which triggered the controversy in the first place. And they are “ready” to show the “old”, warm e-cat – not the one the controversy was about… and of course they won’t. You know as well as I do that there will be no showcase in Sweden this fall or ever.

  30. Jordi Heguilor

    August 4, 2013 at 4:43 pm

  31. Al Potenza

    August 4, 2013 at 7:16 pm

    Here is what Defkalion had to say about independent testing. IN DECEMBER 2011!!!!!

    “Data of our extensive tests on every section or component of Hyperion pre-industrial products, as well as the overall system test data, are in compliance with the released specs.

    Specs have been released to be used also as a basis of independent third party tests that have been scheduled already.

    Measurements needs test protocols and protocols require specs. So, this is what is expected to be tested by third parties. We encourage and support the public announcement of their tests.

    We are sure that third party independent testing results will convince the most sceptical on LENR and on the first safe and stable product utilizing energy produced by such reactions.”

    So let’s see. Defkalion scheduled third party independent tests in December 2011 *and* called for “public announcement” of the tests and presumably of the results (otherwise why do the tests in the first place). And these tests are where a year and a half later? And do you think maybe somebody was lying that they had been scheduled? Or would third parties lose interest and just not bother to test the most advanced and important technology in the current century?

    From the forum DOWNLOAD (this is not an internet address) at: Downloads/forums_for_educational_use_only/

  32. Al Potenza

    August 4, 2013 at 7:22 pm

    Oh… and then there was this:

    “Tests with the presence of high level Government officials have been concluded. Opinions and results were very positive.

    Announcements will be made upon mutual agreements, at a time yet to be defined.

    Tests continue with international Authorities in the coming weeks.


    That was February 18, 2012 here:


  33. Al Potenza

    August 4, 2013 at 7:26 pm

    And this, dating way back from July 2011, cited in

    “In a forum posting on DGT’s website, the company made the following statement:

    “All official test by the Greek Authorities are in progress. We have already answered which are the Ministries that, by law, have designated related authorities and labs to run such tests:

    -Ministry of Regional Development/Industry
    -Ministry of Environment/Energy
    -Ministry of Education and Research

    As stated in the Press Conference and in other topics in this forum, the results and the protocols of all tests will be published in Defkalion’s site uppon issuing of Certificates.

    Thank you for your question”

    In the same thread, DGT said they expected the results of this testing to be available to the public in the fourth quarter of 2011.”

    That was TWO YEARS AGO, folks.

  34. Al Potenza

    August 4, 2013 at 7:35 pm

    Finally, and with apologies for the multiple posts, around the end of 2011/start of 2012, a member of the Greek Parliament was interviewed by a reporter from Xanthi and he told the reporter that he had asked the agencies mentioned by Defkalion and none had ever received a request to test or a device to test. (That’s from my memory — I don’t find the article any more but I could look for it if anyone who matters doubts that it happened)

    • JKW

      August 4, 2013 at 8:09 pm

      Al, a refreshing flashback. However, it made me realize – two years had gone while I kept following this LENR+ crap where nothing really changes. I hope the regular LENR (without the plus) is different. Is it not? Well, I also feel sorry for the guys stuck there since ’89, trying to prove their milliwats or a couple of degrees diff between a couple of brass balls.

  35. GreenWin

    August 4, 2013 at 8:28 pm

    Since it is abundantly clear the skeptopaths are defenders of old timey physics, fission power, hot fusion and of course fossils, is it any wonder they are threatened by LENR?? NOTE their silence when it comes to examine their favorite energy Administration DOE: e.g. the 40 U.S. nuke plants scheduled for early retirement (posted above.) There is a reason for this silence:

    Ever since the Fukushima nuclear meltdown the US has taken a close interest in Japan’s nuclear program, and wields its geopolitical might to influence that program as much as possible.
    As Mitsuhei Murata, the former Japanese ambassador to Switzerland, said in August last year:

    “In the US there are 31 [sic] units the same type of that of Fukushima nuclear plant [23 are virtually identical to Fukushima]. So, if the accident [facts] spread too far that really embarrasses the US. So that is why the crisis of Unit 4 has been toned down recently. The USA is actually the main reason.”

    So the US has been determined to play down the negative press about the Fukushima disaster, in order to avoid any close analysis of its own nuclear power plants back home, and protect its nuclear industry from facing a similar public backlash to Japan’s poor industry.

    Fukushima leakage is currently poisoning Japan’s ocean. Thousands homeless, exposed to deadly radiation, and New York Times reports the toxic leaks have been covered up.

    Kinda makes the whining over LENR look infantile.

  36. Jordi Heguilor

    August 4, 2013 at 8:31 pm

    GreenWin, I have met kids with ADD wanting attention who are less obnoxious and repetitive than you.

    • GreenWin

      August 4, 2013 at 8:42 pm

      Truth hurts only those unwilling to accept it. Have a nice evening jordi! 🙂

      • Jordi Heguilor

        August 4, 2013 at 8:55 pm

        You don’t hurt, you annoy. My bad for responding, won’t happen again.

        • JKW

          August 4, 2013 at 9:11 pm

          GreenWin doesn’t hurt. He is just seeking for truth behind his revered board of trustees of Terawatt Research Inc. I can look up the tread if he is still backing up their claims.
          Pity is what pity seems…

          • Al Potenza

            August 4, 2013 at 10:34 pm

            He’s tangential in the sense of this definition:

            “Tangential refers to something that’s not part of the whole. If you make a comment that is tangential to the story you’re telling, it’s a digression. The story could still be understood without it.”

            This is typical True Believer behavior. They know nothing of the facts and issues of the present conversation’s topic. So they can’t join the current discussion which is about Defkalion’s last demo and past history and why they are not trustworthy and can not be believed.

            Instead they diverge into irrelevant things like hot fusion and fission power, neither of which are of the slightest concern with respect to the ongoing discussion.

  37. Dale G. Basgall

    August 4, 2013 at 8:59 pm

    Crystal Clear are the facts that; Rossi claimed he had discovered a new way to produce thermal energy- but- by using electrical energy first and he had a product and owned the new e-cat.

    DGT got involved with obviously no prior experience in building reactors but reverse engineered the Home Depot plumbers e-cat from Rossi as well as robbed his unfinished ideas as well as analyzing the operation of what they claim an e-cat from Rossi in operation.

    There is nothing here today in 3 dimensional form that I have seen with the name E-cat or Hyperion.

    Nothing has emerged from either Rossi or Defkalion but information creating a new market. If there were a plan like scam both had calculated out it worked out.

    It started research in LENR on a larger scale than ever before, opened up possibilities for new jobs, and produced opinions from a large number of people interested in looking into the possibilities of investment.

    I have enjoyed this, kind of cool just to let your mind drift on possibilities of a new market. It seems to me that it could be possible that from the early scientists observing LENR, research actually developed into something that needed to be held back for one reason or another. It seems obvious that making LENR work properly there needs to be precise and systematic methods to stimulate the LENR. My point is that LENR seems to need a formula so exacting that to reproduce it first, the formula needs to be uncovered.

    It is evident to me that when someone or organization has a motive or goal to deceive others in order to satisfy that motive for themselves than the story line can be generated in a way not obvious to others. So even though these two companies seem to be scamming – Rossi/Defkalion It is likely they are on to something and we will be entering into phase 2 LENR.

    First Phase LENR was getting those Rossi videos cranked out. Others adding (DGT-NASA-and so on) fuel to the fire, and mainstream media picking up the hits online. Others now experimenting with the process to prove or dis prove claims and general public becoming interested.

    Phase 2 LENR hopefully will net some formula providing the recipe for making LENR observable repeatedly with the same results in anyone’s products claiming LENR.

    The “stick in the spoke” still remains, how something that starts out as an outright lie can end up good in any way?

  38. Al Potenza

    August 4, 2013 at 9:30 pm

    December 2011 from the Defkalion forum:

    “kwhilborn wrote:
    Does Defkalion have any working reactors or just spec sheets? There are two low resolution photos that look nothing like the computer mock up design, but nobody has ever seen one.

    Does Defkalion have any working reactors now?”

    “Yes, working as in our specs, under extensive testing.”
    Thank you

  39. GreenWin

    August 4, 2013 at 9:32 pm


    Dale makes some good points. There are indeed phases to the LENR rollout. The demos and blogging is superfluous really. The big plays are happening behind closed doors – which are just now being forced open.

    The big play is the struggle for survival of the fusion/fission industry – especially in the USA. But the last month or two have demonstrated an enormous power shift. Big nuke builder/owners like Chicago-based Exelon the USA’s largest operator of nuke power plants, are taking a financial beating. Exelon’s stock has been bludgeoned from $90 down to $30 today. Investors are scrambling to exit.

    Exelon’s heavyweight partner, France’s EDF just QUIT the partnership, after losing billions on cancelled new plants. The Department of Energy nuclear division is a shambles, unable to report the imminent closing of 40 nuclear plants in its 2013 Energy Report.

    More disturbing is emerging news of coverups of disastrous radiation leaks at Japan’s Fukushima disaster site:

    “Shunichi Tanaka, the chairman of Japan’s Nuclear Regulation Authority, said at a news conference [last week] that Tepco needed help with a cleanup that experts acknowledge is unprecedented.

    ‘The difficulties we face at Fukushima Daiichi are on par with the difficulties we faced in the wake of World War II,’ he said.”

    LENR steam measurments v a disaster on par with World War II?? What deserves most attention??

  40. Al Potenza

    August 4, 2013 at 9:41 pm

    And in February 2012 (from their forum):

    “Defkalion GT wrote:

    We have stated that we will publish the detailed protocol before testing. That includes in detail:


    1. The testers, the observers (if any), the location and the date of the test

    2. The objectives of the test.

    3 Tester equipment/instrumentation and their calibration procedure

    3. Safety limits and precautions

    4. A detailed list of scheduled/expected procedures of every step of the test

    5. Expected results”

    NONE of it ever appeared anywhere. There were similar claims in April also with no results or comments from Defkalion. I can’t produce that one because they had frozen (and later they deleted) their forum. However, the failed promises were well documented in and other places.

    So someone STILL trusts these people? WHY?!

  41. GreenWin

    August 4, 2013 at 10:30 pm

    While little minds contort themselves with protocol minutia, the big picture emerges according to good thinkers such as Thomas Kuhn:

    Kuhn argues that scientific advancement is not evolutionary, but rather is a “series of peaceful interludes punctuated by intellectually violent revolutions”, and in those revolutions “one conceptual world view is replaced by another”.

    Think of a Paradigm Shift as a change from one way of thinking to another. It’s a revolution, a transformation, a sort of metamorphosis. It just does not happen, but rather it is driven by agents of change.

    Agents of change helped create a paradigm-shift moving scientific theory from the Plolemaic system (the earth at the center of the universe) to the Copernican system (the sun at the center of the universe), and moving from Newtonian physics to Relativity and Quantum Physics. Both movements eventually changed the world view. These transformations were gradual as old beliefs were replaced by the new paradigms creating “a new gestalt.”

    Change is difficult. Human Beings resist change; however, the process has been set in motion long ago and we will continue to co-create our own experience. Kuhn states that “awareness is prerequisite to all acceptable changes of theory” (p. 67).

    • Jordi Heguilor

      August 4, 2013 at 10:56 pm

      Honey, can you take the trash out this time?

      • GreenWin

        August 5, 2013 at 5:09 am

        Misanthropic AND misogynist?? Jordi meet J Newman, you’re both filled with misanthropic rage!

        Anger Management boys.

        • JNewman

          August 5, 2013 at 2:22 pm

          Gosh, I’m doing so well while filled with rage that I can hardly wait to see what it is like when I am in a better mood!

        • Al Potenza

          August 5, 2013 at 5:25 pm

          I believe that reaction of yours is called “projection”.

    • spacegoat

      August 5, 2013 at 1:45 am

      Cut the waffle Green Win.

      DGT December 20011

      Does Defkalion have any working reactors now?

      “Yes, working as in our specs, under extensive testing.”

      (Thanks to Al Potenza)

      DGT claimed 2 years ago there were working products.

      What is your pet Belief about the delay?

      • GreenWin

        August 5, 2013 at 5:04 am

        goat, don’t convict yourself. You are smarter than that.

      • Al Potenza

        August 5, 2013 at 5:24 pm

        You notice, spacegoat, that believers like Greenwin and Roger Barker *NEVER* give proper answers to good question which bring into doubt their favorite fairy tales. All they do is insult, fuss, fume, threaten and want to ban. Like I said before, with friends like these, Defkalion and Rossi need no enemies.

  42. Al Potenza

    August 5, 2013 at 1:59 am

    To complete the thought, here are a couple of other troubling items from Defkalion. A year ago at ICCF17, they gave what was supposed to be a “paper”. BTW, I could not find it on their web page any more (the old link won’t work) but it’s still available at .

    Two figures are pretty amazing and directly contradict the present demonstration.

    In one, they say among other things that the “second generation” reactors were equipped with”coolant interface and more sensors so as to perform liquid flow calorimetery.” So the “fifth generation” reactors they showed Lewan had no such capability. They had no clear cut method of calorimetry at all. They had two phase flow and no way at all to measure the output power. A giant step BACKWARDS from the second generation. One can only wonder about gens 3 and 4!

    Also “… assistance from experts from eminent national laboratories and National Instruments has helped us to improve our setup and to automate all test protocols…”

    Image stored here:

    WHICH “eminent national laboratories”? If they were enlisted to help improve the setup, why not let representatives of the national labs witness the test? Better yet, why not LET THEM DO THE TEST? I’m sure you won’t get an answer if you ask Defkalion that. More in the next post.

  43. Al Potenza

    August 5, 2013 at 2:06 am

    Finally, let’s look at the summary of the data Defkalion claimed to have collected A YEAR AGO in their labs.

    In this figure, they neglected to label the columns (slobs) however in keeping with an earlier figure, it is clear that the labels should be (top left to right…) MINIMUM MAXIMUM and REMARKS.

    Also at the top they specify that they used “thermal oil, 65-349 degrees C”. Gee, is thermal oil too rare or too expensive to use with Lewan’s demonstration?! Perhaps he was only worth bothering with plain water (not to mention two phase flow)?

    Next, look at the range of energy consumed per cycle (no higher than 2 Watt hours). And the energy produced for that cycle, 16 – 92 Watt hour. And the claimed COP? 1:8 to 1:22 !! So why did they show Lewan a COP of barely over 2? Maybe he’s not worthy of higher COP’s? I’d really like to know if I were Lewan.

    Finally they ran 10 cycles per triggered manually per hour. You can calculate the energy (160 to 920 watt hours). At a best COP at high temp of 22! And it ran for 48 hours one time and six months another time. Not exactly what they showed Lewan, is it?

    None of this makes sense unless you assume they Defkalion were lying at ICCF17 or that they deliberately crippled the demo for Lewan (which is a silly assumption). Anybody else have any theory for this RIDICULOUS situation?

    Note: for the next four days, I will be away from my usual location for a project. I will check in occasionally but not often. In any case, most of what I posted above is pretty much self evident and self explanatory. I will let you draw your own conclusions.

    • Roger Barker

      August 5, 2013 at 2:26 am

      Yes, you go hard keyboard warrior. May the keyboard warrior Gods hasten your way to the keyboard warrior after life.

      • Al Potenza

        August 5, 2013 at 2:27 am


        PS: Hey Rodg, your post can be construed as a threat. Shall I consult the FBI? I’m sure they can find out who sent it!

    • MaxS

      August 5, 2013 at 10:03 am

      good observations. This is really suspicious.
      In the paper, they show elemental analysis of a “NAE” with data. More than we have ever seen from the Great Master. Can someone makes this all up?
      Interesting, according to the claim of the paper of complex transmutations, the alleged Ni fusion process doubles the amount of Ni at the active center. I wonder why it was <10% Ni initially?

      None of this makes sense unless you assume they Defkalion were lying at ICCF17 or that they deliberately crippled the demo for Lewan (which is a silly assumption).
      Anybody else have any theory for this RIDICULOUS situation?

      There are some possible explanations:
      a)they cannot replicate their own results.
      b)in a demonstration of that type, they can only fake a COP in the order of maginitude of 2, similar to Rossi.

      • Dale G. Basgall

        August 5, 2013 at 1:57 pm

        Max it appears you are leaning towards the scenario of being lied to. People were lied to in fact after Rossi’s ball got rolling.

        A couple years ago when this site started I posted a scenario regarding what I saw at that time as a possibility.

        The scenario largely related to a US patent and how even the best needed product can turn to rubbish without properly going through formal steps to title the invention.

        Nothing really made business sense from the onset with Rossi’s exhibitions on video however something was compelling regarding the claimed technology.

        Today I feel what actually happened is that Rossi was the recipient of certain information regarding the AH effect and tried it out, and it appears he tried to game someone into investing silently while letting others know little about that. He did that by showing the potential and proof of concept to someone with money less scientifically based.

        With the intranet today it is a whole lot different in getting a project or product started than in the old days of catalogs and magazines or radio. Today it’s there almost immediate in real time across the globe. It was easy to see from a mechanical perspective that certain things like coolant system design was not present and what had been claimed was definitely not what we witnessed in any video presented by Rossi.

        I believe it was a snowball/band wagon scenario that built diameter exponentially as each day passed. A cluster **** at best and then words to describe the unknowing started being born daily.

        So I really still don’t think this could have been a calculated scam directed to the global population at first, that would have been way to many variables to direct properly it would seem.

        Defkalion and it’s personnel at the onset of their formation exhibited ruthlessness towards Rossi as if they were really pissed off at him for some reason yet to be uncovered.

        I myself then got involved because I have been through this scenario of a CEO offering for sale a product they obviously did not have at the time the claims and offers were made to others. The scenario is someone takes pictures of other products and pre markets them explaining the new product features. Same day different chump.

        When the snowball starts rolling and building diameter (clingons)and purchase orders are being taken and advancements to assist quicker delivery times initiated, things get serious and the creator or inventor of the device usually looks like the stomped on plumber setting in the corner with his open tool bag. He was turned toward us in that video while setting down and most likely could not stand and turn around without showing the big hole in the seat of his pants after Rossi reamed him out. How’s he doing today? Anyone heard from him, why was he in the original pictures, is he the original builder of the e-cat’s used in the first Rossi factory?

        Anyway things got out of hand quickly and statements were made and they were written down. None of them match what has been viewed by us normal folk/ abnormal folk and others.

        So this scenario may be as simple as “cart before the horse” and not a planned out and calculated scam.

        So the question remains, are you willing to keep going with LENR science if the two companies Rossi’s and Defkalion are found to be fraudulent regarding claims they have been making for specs and development?

  44. GreenWin

    August 5, 2013 at 5:02 am

    Roger, you probably know the after life is not interested in lazy, greedy, solipsistic sycophants like the weasel. Blowback has already compromised these rogue ops. Next is to put ’em to sleep. 🙂

    Check in with J Edgar on that weasel.

    • Jami

      August 5, 2013 at 7:41 am

      Most amazing discrepancy between what Defkalion said they had in 2011 and what they showed now is, of course, the coolant flow regulation. It was “highly sophisticated electronics” back in 2011 managing a complex “pump and valve system” in order to keep the flow exactly where it has to be so the reactor maintains the wanted temperatures and flow rates at all times. Two years later they have a guy in a lab coat strolling over to a faucet and turning it a bit up or down every hour or so – hoping the Milan city water net delivers the kind of pressure required to push ordinary water at a steady rate through a reactor heating it up to 160 C steam which then escapes through a thin and long copper tube and thus produces roughly 3 bar of pressure. That is progress.

      (wasn’t meant as a comment to GreenWin’s post – clicked the wrong reply link)

      • R Hopeful

        August 5, 2013 at 3:08 pm

        City water pressure should be plenty to push the water through that open pipe. And since the flowmeter is placed before the control valve, it will be under pressure.
        If there was water vapor building into the flow meter, the input thermocouple, which is placed right by the reactor, would be filled with steam and it would register a large temperature increase.
        So, gas distorting the flow measurements is unlikely.

  45. Jami

    August 5, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    Another steam video from youtube – incidentally in pretty much the same energy range as what DGT claims and through an outlet of similar size. They say they vaporize about a pint per minute – so it is actually a little less than what DGT say they released and supposedly condensed away with some water from a faucet in a sink (turned off by Lewan for a while to check for droplets – without melting the plastic sink, killing himself or going deaf – but he did notice “a sound”).

    • Dale G. Basgall

      August 5, 2013 at 3:18 pm

      Jami that’s a gasifier that requires fuel (wood) and electricity (blower motor) and appears not regulated.

      Good example of where Rossi was when he claimed the e-cat was a product prototype and that the factory was going to crank out a phenomenal quantity for the first year of production.

      That setup appears to be non regulated and that if recorded with colorimeter it would be difficult to re produce his results, i.e. duplicated with a margin of error.

      Also like the Rossi e-cat there is heat by wood and air flow by electric motor. The heat is on already, the blower is in operation and unregulated pressure is in the upper barrel it appears.

      My point is that man in the video running the unit looked a slight bit wondering (he hesitated) about rotating the outlet valve. Simply it appeared dangerous around that type of heat and water in a very thin barrel that will blow apart with little pressure inside. I have blown one up like a balloon of metal @ 5 to 8 psi air pressure so that made me think of safety first around hot steam.

      That was like the video with Rossi intently looking as if he hoped the reaction would stabilize.

      That man is at the same place in product development of a working home steam system as Rossi was when he claimed to have the product e-cat. Wow how could you re produce anything at that level of development?

      Good video for comparison.

    • Shane D.

      August 5, 2013 at 3:23 pm


      If there is one thing I have learned about steam in reading all the knowledgeable comments here, but mostly elsewhere, is that opinion greatly varies.

      Seems all have a different idea of what this amount of power, at this temp, under this much PSI, this diameter hose, this length of hose, that ambient humidity/ambient temp… will visually look, and sound like.

      Over on ECW Omega has a very good synopsis. Brian Ahern finally threw in the towel over on Mats blog and conceded the steam issue to Mats.

      Walkaway observation for us non-scientist types is to ignore the arguments of those using steam to debunk the demos.

      • Jami

        August 5, 2013 at 4:37 pm

        Yes. Just ignore it, Shane. And when you buy your first 27kW Hyperion reactor in a cold December to heat your family’s house, the swimming pool, the winter garden, the garage and have enough left over to power a turbine for all the electricity but instead it all freezes and goes dark… I want you to remember Ahern’s words:

        “The steam coming out instantly cools. In fact, you can put your hand into the flow 18″ downstream and not feel any high temperature.” 😉

        Riiight Brian. And where the f*ck did those 27kW of power (enough to push an average car along at highway speeds) escape to in that case? Maybe the real miracle here is not how DGT produces energy – it is how they make it go away down a sink without a trace.

        • Shane D.

          August 5, 2013 at 4:58 pm

          Ahern has formidable credentials and what appears to be a short fuse. I suggest you take the issue up with him over on Mats blog.

          Good luck.

        • Shane D.

          August 5, 2013 at 5:02 pm

          This from Omega over on ECW:

          Trying to validate it based strictly by a Video is foolish. There’s just to many variables left to guess work by video. Even for a Scientist who works in this field.

          Posts here & elsewhere leads me to believe most expect superheated steam to be very audible as in a whooshing or whistling. Not True. It depends on circumstance. Size of pipe, Volume, & Pressure, Etc…

          Was a time I nearly walked into a pipe venting superheated steam. Due to the environment, there was no trace of transition to visible steam. No detectable sound unless you got right up close.(Inches) The person who halted me placed piece of paper within an Inch of the end & it immediately turned the paper black. A few more seconds would have ignited it.

          They didn’t see this as a problem as regular employees were aware of it. A few minutes talking to the owner that outside contractors may be unaware changed this. The possibility of Million dollar lawsuits are scary. Next day it had a yellow painted pipe cage permanently attached & a warning sign.

          Note that this could remove flesh from the bone within 6 inches of it, but at 2 feet away it was just warm air. No steam, sound or condensation visible. This is why it’s considered extremely dangerous.

          If the DGT demo was ever so slightly above normal pressure, An obvious sound wouldn’t be noticeable & likely not picked up by a video recorder unless placed right next to it. Even then it might not pick it up. Most of these cameras seem to screen out very low volume sounds.

          Another note about DGT. The steam was discounted. Measured only to the 100`C. point. Wet, Dry, doesn’t matter. I’m not even a DGT fan. I just follow some of the events.

          What’s being discussed is only of importance to those who have business/commercial interests. In which case I would be extremely interested in the accuracy of COP, Wet/Dry steam Etc.. It would determine whether my plans were financially viable or a waste of time & investment.

          • R Hopeful

            August 5, 2013 at 5:08 pm

            At last, a comment from somebody who has seen superheated steam up close.

          • Jami

            August 5, 2013 at 5:22 pm

            Oh b*llshit. If it blackened paper it would have had to have at least 220C – and if it was just warm air at 2 feet away, it was flowing at very low volume. With the 1kW or so of input power DGT could have produced super heated steam at a couple of thousand degrees instantaneously melting a hole through their reactor and making almost no sound at all while it was doing it. But that isn’t the point, is it?

          • R Hopeful

            August 5, 2013 at 5:37 pm

            20 kilowatts is the power required evaporate 0.6 liters of water per minute -when the water starts at room temperature.
            No steam at thousands of degrees.
            You have no clue how much energy is needed to evaporate water.

          • Deleo77

            August 5, 2013 at 5:42 pm

            It would seem if this were true that it would be fairly easy to measure the heat at the source. Why not do another live stream demo this week and show this? I will give them that steam can be this mysterious thing that may be invisible or not noticeable unless right up close to it, but heat is heat. It’s one of the easiest things to measure. So perhaps the question to focus on isn’t where is the steam, but where is the heat? That is what matters here.

          • Jami

            August 5, 2013 at 5:48 pm

            “No steam at thousands of degrees.”

            I’m talking about Omega’s example about the silent release of superheated steam at something above 220C. The anecdote is completely useless for comparison as as long as we don’t know what the volume was. So using it as “evidence” that the 27kW supposedly released by DGT may have very well been silent and merely felt as a mild gust of warm air a couple of feet from the reactor is complete nonsense. Just like the couple of thousand degrees melting a hole through the reactor with nothing but 1kW of input would be possible but not with half a liter of water per minute – got it?

          • R Hopeful

            August 5, 2013 at 5:58 pm

            Omega’s comment is not evidence of anything except our ignorance -that is what he tried to point out.
            You think you know better. Good for you. I think DGT will double check their measurements and then I will know.

          • Shane D.

            August 5, 2013 at 6:41 pm


            “Oh b*llshit. If it blackened paper it would have had to have at least 220C”

            If Mats Lewan right hand “blackened” would that be proof enough?

            Not sure but his hand looked pretty dark to me. Especially for a Swede. Maybe a bit on the light tan side which would still indicate a very high temp.

            Any experts on skin exposure color in relation to steam temp? Any close up pics of Lewans extremeties?
            If not, maybe we could ask him to take his shirt off.

          • Shane D.

            August 5, 2013 at 6:59 pm


            They stuck the steam hose end in a bucket of water. They had the water volume, the water temp beginning and end, and the time immersed.

            It couldn’t be more simple then that. In fact, that method (think they figured 4kW) underestimates the excess, as much of the heat bubbled out without being accounted for.

          • Jami

            August 5, 2013 at 7:44 pm

            “Not sure but his hand looked pretty dark to me.”

            You know – now you mention it – I think it really was. The left one. He may have driven all the way from Sweden to Italy, of course, with his left arm hanging out of the window. I’m sure we’ll find lots of youtube video showing grinning Swedes on holiday who have done just that. We could check and compare…

          • Shane D.

            August 5, 2013 at 9:46 pm


            Yes, that’s a good idea. If Mats hasn’t been on vacation then obviously his discolored left hand (I remember now it was the left) would indicate a successful demo.

            It’s amazing what applying logic to a difficult science puzzle can do.

            We be smarts!

      • Al Potenza

        August 5, 2013 at 5:20 pm


        This isn’t the Middle Ages. Steam enthalpy should be properly measured, not guessed at. Which is why Defkalion and Rossi before them, should have sparged it– condensed it into a (calibrated) water bath and measured the temperature rise.

        • Shane D.

          August 5, 2013 at 6:32 pm


          Good measurement is always good. However, looking at steam -especially from a video, and deducing a measurement is another thing altogether.

  46. Al Potenza

    August 5, 2013 at 5:33 pm

    Talking about old news, does anyone remember this idiotic story by Joe Shea, editor of American Reporter, in 2011? He still believes this crap, by the way:

    Or this?

  47. Sojourner Soo

    August 5, 2013 at 5:37 pm

    I came across this while looking for Thicket’s real name, Rainer something or other, if I recall correctly.

    “maryyugo Reply

    July 31, 2011 at 9:03 pm

    …..”Actually I have extensive experience with both fluid flow and heat transfer. I worked in a lab which specialized in reactor safety and liquid sodium cooled reactors for many years. I also helped to design high precision biocalorimeters. I am *eminently* qualified to test Rossi's machine and I could do it PROPERLY in a week."

    **** So? What's stopping you?

    • Al Potenza

      August 5, 2013 at 5:51 pm

      “So? What’s stopping you?

      Hadjichristos. He has no intention of my testing anything. Nothing he says or does makes the slightest sense.

      For example, just recently, a fully qualified professor who would have been working with me if we were to test the Hyperion wrote him an email. It was obviously not intended for public release. Instead of replying, Hadjichristos copied the email to the internet (on Peter Gluck’s blog).

      Hadjichristos was asked to agree to work with us discretely on a protocol and a schedule. This is how he responds?

      But as I said before, the whole idea that I would test Hyperions is beyond absurd. It makes no sense whatever except to a few weird and extreme True Believers on a couple of small and sparsely populated internet blog. Nobody in the real world cares or would care.

      Test need to be done “indipendently” by a national lab or a large university. How many times do we need to say this?

      PS: If you were asking why I never tested Rossi’s machine, the fact is that I tried to set up a proper test two years ago along with Jed Rothwell’s cooperation. Rossi told Jed no, even without knowing I was involved. Rossi does not now and has never wanted a proper test. If you doubt any of this, email Jed.

      Also, why would you care about Thicket’s “real” name? What difference does it make? Some people are so hung up about real names that they lose sight of the real problem: their heroes can’t perform. They refuse to have the appropriate tests done. Probably because their claims are lies and the stuff never worked.

  48. Sojourner Soo

    August 5, 2013 at 6:23 pm

    The solution to this impasse is very simple, and I don’t need to spell it out for you, Mary. All it requires is transparency on your parts. Insisting on remaining anonymous is really kind of stupid. I wish you would take all your colleagues and go test the Hyperion, as you’ve been offered to do. This is the second time you’ve weaseled your way out of testing it. Why is that? Your battered on-line reputations could all use a bit of redemption right about now. You’re just laughingstocks as things stand.

    If you guys are as qualified as you all claim to be, and if you are all as concerned about frauds and scams as you also claim to be, you would just shut up and go test it, in order to put your worries to rest. The only person stopping you from doing so is you. Do Canada and me a favour and go test it.

    • Al Potenza

      August 5, 2013 at 6:30 pm

      I would test it, Soo, if Hadjichristos showed one trace of reliability, sincerity and honesty. What a sincere person would have done would have been to reply to my colleague’s email privately, to invite HD (who is using his real name and is not anonymous) to visit and make arrangements, and to agree that I could reveal my identity when I chose as long as it was ahead of the experiment.

      Instead, he wants everything ahead of giving anything.

      That’s not negotiations. It’s nonsense. Only you and a few other believers can’t seem to see it.

      I have no idea why you rely on me to test the thing anyway. There are no national labs or universities you trust these days?

    • JNewman

      August 5, 2013 at 6:39 pm

      It is galling to think that Canada is threatening the environment with tar sands when only Maryyugo’s test of the Hyperion stands in the way of eliminating the need for such things completely. Sad.

      • Al Potenza

        August 5, 2013 at 6:46 pm

        Boo hoo!

  49. Sojourner Soo

    August 5, 2013 at 6:38 pm

    I disagree, Mary. And I’m being sincere. It really is up to you to reveal who you are, because he does need to vet your qualifications, after all, before he enters into any sort of negotiations with you for a test. YOU are the ones being unreasonable. You know that as well as I do, too.

    • Al Potenza

      August 5, 2013 at 6:45 pm

      Well the solution to that impasse is very simple. Get someone else. Either work with my qualified colleagues who are equally skeptical as me (just less outspoken and willing to be identified to Hadjichristos at any time) or work with any number of prestigious labs or universities who would be happy to test Hyperions in THEIR LABS using THEIR METHODS (ie.: INDEPENDENTLY).

      • JNewman

        August 5, 2013 at 6:48 pm

        Al, you are trying to deflect the discussion away from your credibility and towards DGT’s credibility. Nobody cares about DGT’s credibility. That is an article of faith. This is entirely about you.

        • Al Potenza

          August 5, 2013 at 6:56 pm

          Oh I know. My test is the ONLY THING standing behind widespread approval and success for Defkalion’s technology and more years of obscurity and doubt. And because I am so terribly evil and heavily invested in coal and oil companies, there is no way I will allow them to prevail. Gloat, gloat!

          • JNewman

            August 5, 2013 at 7:56 pm

            You won’t even do it for…. Canada?

        • Al Potenza

          August 5, 2013 at 8:35 pm

          Kidding aside, as you know, JN, I’d be happy to do it (with considerable help from some capable colleagues).

          It’s Hadjichristos who doesn’t reply to proper questions, won’t engage in discussions as to protocols and schedules, and is just generally unresponsive. As always. The company’s responses on their blog have never made sense which is why they deleted the blog.

          One really has to wonder why all this negative information about Defkalion is true, if in fact his company is in the sole possession of the greatest invention of the last hundred years. Wow, he sure doesn’t act like it!

          • JNewman

            August 5, 2013 at 11:35 pm

            I realize that you would love to force those clowns into a real test of their system. Of course, it isn’t going to happen. The whole business is a rather bizarre effort on the part of Hadjichristos to discover your real identity. What this would accomplish, I can’t imagine. If the qualifications of the hundreds of companies who allegedly volunteered to test their stuff way back when were insufficient, I would imagine yours would not measure up either. There is clearly nobody who has what it takes to check out the work of various bartenders, salesman and rehab center managers. There is simply nobody in their league. So they would reject you as a tester and then hope that the harassment you would receive having your RW identity known would distract you from spending time pointing out that they are a sham. Or, perhaps, all he cares about is getting moral support from the likes of GreenWin, in which case these guys aren’t merely frauds, they are nuts.

          • dsm

            August 6, 2013 at 2:37 am

            Once again these people ignore the simple and plain reality that identities need to be validated.
            It is business insanity to take a blogger’s word for who he might be. Even that doesn’t cover what such a blogger might have become or who associated with. Your barrage and style of posting alone is a good reason to be cautious.
            You keep asking DGT to potentially commit business suicide whilst having *nothing* to lose yourselves if you are as legit as you claim. They have a lot on the line.
            So please don’t keep insulting DGT for exercising a modicum of sane business ‘best practice’ in validating who they get tangled up with. There are too many good reasons why they must validate well in advance.

  50. Al Potenza

    August 5, 2013 at 7:23 pm


    Have you or any of the other enthusiasts for Defkalion testing contacted them and asked them to:

    – agree to my anonymity until the test has been agreed upon and scheduled?

    Consider this: they can tell from the proposal we already made (on HD’s blog) that we know what we are talking about. And they can talk in person with HD and the other scientist. Heck, the scientist lives not far from them and can visit them on short notice! Have they tried to contact these people? No. Hadjichristos did not even reply to my colleague’s emails.

    So why don’t you ask them to–

    – agree upon a test protocol

    – agree we can bring and use our own instruments including thermocouples, flow meters, power meters and a spectrum analyzer, breakout power cords, and place the device on a clear pedestal so any extraneous wires and tubes can be identified?

    – agree on a schedule?

    Why in the world should I give the guy anything when he not only didn’t agree to any of those requests (made on Peter Gluck’s blog to which he regularly posts) but he didn’t even ADDRESS THEM!

    Hadjichristos is most certainly not sincere. As to his truthfulness… well look at my other posts and see what he, as the most likely company contributor to their blog, was saying two years ago!

    • Ransompw

      August 5, 2013 at 11:09 pm

      I would have thought that your contact person would have at least identified himself instead of using an alias. I did offer my services, at least I am a real person and better yet a lawyer who could negotiate terms.

      I don’t know that I can take either Defkalion or you seriously. Neither of you act legitimate.

      Now that Alias Angus is involved it is like a mexican standoff, although I guess we must assume Angus is your partner and not a competeing skeptic.

      In any event, until Defkalion is approached by some serious real person, I can hardly fault them for ignoring you. I try to ignore you as often as possible.

      • Sojourner Soo

        August 6, 2013 at 1:06 am

        Mary: I rather suspect that everybody who matters in this saga already knows your real identity. You’re just being silly.

        • JNewman

          August 6, 2013 at 1:17 am

          Actually, nobody really matters in this saga because this saga itself doesn’t matter. You will eventually realize that.

          • Sojourner Soo

            August 6, 2013 at 1:21 am

            Perhaps you are right, Newman. All the more reason to shut up then. Or go and test it. For something that “doesn’t matter,” you geriatric nerds sure spend an inordinate amount of time on it. I wish I had a dollar for every word you have collectively typed. I’d be vulgarly rich by now.

          • JNewman

            August 6, 2013 at 2:07 am

            The fact that this is all nonsense is no reason at all to shut up. Frivolous hobbies are like that. If this was important, I wouldn’t be wasting my time exchanging unpleasantries on an obscure blog. But it is a shame that there isn’t any money in it…

            And you are making progress! Only one insult in an entire post. Nice work!

    • dsm

      August 6, 2013 at 2:32 am

      Al Potenza

      But your colleague’s email also requested anonymity as well as yours !.

      As John Hadjichristos said ” Is there some short of Sceptics Anonymous club out there?”

      And one does need to read mach to know that this was an infinitely more polite response that those you post about JH & DGT.