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Defkalion’s Demo Winds Down

July 23, 2013

DGT’s demo is in its final stages. I watched it from start to wind-down. This is simply a quick summary of my first impressions.

I was surprised by the level of detail and the apparent freedom given to those present. That said, I was disappointed to see that only Mats Lewan stepped up to the plate to stick his nose in on our behalf. I think we all owe him for doing that. {Thank you, Mats}. Where were all the other sceptics? As far as I can tell, this was not DGT’s doing but until we know more, we cannot be sure.

We are told that the complete video set will be available online presently. For now, the salient points are that an inert run was made to check calibration of instruments and gauge system parameters using Argon. The journalist (with a degree in Engineering Physics, I believe) was allowed to roam and measure, which he did. This included him causing a fuse to blow (we will have to await his account on that) when checking the input power. The control run was ended, the Argon purged and replaced by Hydrogen. After preheating, a plasma was struck by switching on the HT input and an apparent energy gain (mostly between approx. 2.5 and 3) and sustained with an input a little under 2KW and output hovering under 6KW.

I do not want to go into all the details at this late hour. For me, the bottom line is this:


If there was no cheating, this was an important day for LENR and perhaps the world. Unfortunately, we cannot conclude that. I am open to persuasion but DGT’s past let-downs have put me on guard. Any demo conducted on their own premises by a company making grand claims starts off with a giant handicap. I accuse them of nothing except leaving the barn door open after putting so much effort into this day. Those unconvinced will see hidden tricks and that will come as no surprise.

To give an example (and please, I am not proposing this is a credible mechanism): The display on the wall was generated by data fed from a computer. During the blank run this was reasonably checked with reality. However, it is easy for software to fudge things and for the fudge to hop around depending on what was being measured at the time. For instance, we only really care about delta T on the second run. How do we know it represented reality then? I doubt such a clumsy trick but that’s not the point. As scientists, the DGT guys know that is how things will be viewed by other scientists. Any demo conducted on-site is up for criticism. Period.

The big question therefore is: Will this be enough to persuade investors? I think it might for some. While I hang on to my scepticism until they present convincing third party results performed by qualified testers, I do bow to admitting that they delivered more than I expected and I now look forward to hearing more. In particular, I would be intrigued if they use this time to reveal the third party results they promised last year.

As with Rossi and his eCat, I hope to have my scepticism dashed. This was interesting but cannot be called proof.


The videos should appear here.


Posted by on July 23, 2013. Filed under Competitors,Defkalion,Hyperion,Tests & Demos,Videos. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

1,172 Responses to Defkalion’s Demo Winds Down

  1. Dale G. Basgall

    August 5, 2013 at 7:41 pm

    The only time testing is needed is before something actually does what is claimed like the Hyperion or the e-cat.

    If and or when anyone has the product for LENR that actually performs something other than show a possibility of performance then no tests will be needed except for emissions.

    Turn on the key and watch the lights and other appliances operate. Use a load and a real person that just wants to use the product. What other test could there be? Totalize the inlet electricity along with real time viewing of a separate watt meter and then generate some real useable electricity and totalize it as well as real time viewing of the output watt meter. Until they get it into a user package they should just remain silent like any other scientist is forced to do.

    Since there are good manufacturing policies I am sure there are also good scientific procedures and those surely do not include boasting of performance before accreditation to acceptance by others replicating the work.

    I can see this scenario in aircraft building, if Rossi or Defkalion were around when the Wrights first demo’d the air flight, Rossi would claim to have one he used for years before the Wrights and that he used to travel to his factory where Defkalion took secret pictures of Rossi’s back while watching the whole demo air flight.

    Next day Defkalion is starting a new aircraft business claiming flight over the ocean to another place.

    Point is that when someone has a product and has built it for themselves and not stolen the information from someone else, they do their own testing and depending what their design was targeted for is what the specifications are set for. It should be obvious there is no product design, like by the seat of their pants design. That works sometimes but the goal must have been to copy Rossi’s work.

    Testing is usually for performance at the company level and should be ready for purchase and usage by others without continued problems of something going haywire or breaking.

    Geeze a person could just scenario this out using hundreds of past product developments as evidence of where this DGT/Rossi testing should go. So I must have missed the part where they told us that they are just testing what they would like others to believe they have. Why haven’t we saw their factory, their employees, assembly line, machinery?

    Most companies with a product like to show the manufacturing facility with all the trick equipment and personnel to the public to validate their capabilities.

    • Al Potenza

      August 5, 2013 at 8:04 pm

      Yikes, Dale. As is most often true, I don’t grasp a single sentence of what you wrote. Well… except the last. I agree with that.

      • Dale G. Basgall

        August 5, 2013 at 9:21 pm

        Was a little early here with 2 cups of coffee and I just commented because I needed UL to test a product of mine that was electric but was designed for the medical community.

        The testing was for di-electric leakage and reverse polarity leakage of the electronic/electrical system mostly for the hospitals, at that time we were allowed 150 micro amps reverse polarity leakage and di electric leakage.

        The choice was to pay the lab to come out and test it or ship it whole complete to UL labs. I had to rent the test machine from a New York instrument rental due to it was a specialized current test machine down into the micro amps, I did the first tests after the assembly of the product and it fell in @32 micro amps reverse polarity leakage.

        The point is that I set the specifications on the product and then UL simply certified it for 3k or so and they came to the location for that price.

        So when a product get’s designed specifications are set for sellable features at the manufacturing level. It is that which certifications are needed. How this fits with the DGT and Rossi testing is that they have set specifications but none have been achieved, it’s like a flip of the coin here where there is to much confusion.

        Defkalion or Rossi either one has the task of setting parameters of their device and it is there responsibility to test their own product. If it meets specs at the factory level, then let someone use it and get their opinion if it’s worth the money.

        This is way to complicated to be a straight forward deal, the maker of the product certifies first their product and then others are hired to certify their claims from the factory. If your product does not perform as specified then back to the drawing board until it does and that’s my point. If they had a product we would see it, if they were coming out with a product we would see the specifications and not the test results.

        It’s just one more small detail that just doesn’t fit into a legit product. Make the product having design specifications, meet that goal, test it for performance and sell it, not complicated at all unless your just following whatever you can get from the product.

        For example the home units were supposed to be 10kw output with ? input. Now none of that is evident, tests were 2kw + in and 3.5kw out with luck and it’s calculated energy out. So it is Defkalion or Rossi who will need a recall on their products if they don’t perform as specified, but neither has one or had one when they claimed it, obviously.

  2. Al Potenza

    August 5, 2013 at 9:02 pm

    For evidence of Hadjichristos’s insincerity and duplicity, follow the discussion here:

    • Roger Barker

      August 6, 2013 at 12:14 am

      For Mary Pretenza’s cowardice you don’t need to go anywhere!

    • R Hopeful

      August 6, 2013 at 12:16 am

      Stop repeating that DGT is a fraud, and do something to prove it.
      As things stand now, you are the poser around here.

      • JNewman

        August 6, 2013 at 2:18 am

        Why don’t some of you believers get in touch with DGT and persuade them to let your own team of experts test their device? You could shut up the skeptics for good. Just make sure your team is competent, qualified and independent. I am sure DGT will cooperate. They seem like great guys!

    • dsm

      August 6, 2013 at 3:25 am

      Al Potenza
      Pardon ? – I would say it shows your own brazen behavior up ?
      I guess we all have different views. Just a real shame we can’t make points without turning these blogs into kindergarten playgrounds for dysfunctional children. It really is rather unbecoming of us supposedly rather intelligent types to be spatting like spitting, hair-pulling sissies in these open play areas.
      If we must score points let us at least make them related to common sense, to good testing and to proving this technology.
      Constantly yelling ‘scammers’, ‘liars’ and ‘idiots’ just doesn’t take us anywhere. The problem with the path to insults is it only takes one supposedly smart person to start it then it becomes a dog-pack free-for-all as even morons can throw insults without recourse any wit or sense to them .

      • JNewman

        August 6, 2013 at 4:43 am

        Totally agree with the last 3 paragraphs. We only differ in how we perceive we got there and there is no point in arguing about that.

    • AB

      August 6, 2013 at 12:24 pm

      The blowhard is trying to divert attention from his own cowardice to real and imaginary flaws of Defkalion.

  3. GreenWin

    August 6, 2013 at 2:24 am

    While many here prefer mindless banter about testing their mettle, there is opportunity to discuss the impact of LENR+ on the US energy industry. Which is by all professional standards – a mess!

    “Even though the American government has done everything possible to encourage nuclear power – by wholly subsidizing nuclear power, reducing safety standards after Fukushima, forcing Japan to re-start its nuclear program, covering up the severity of the Fukushima accident, raising acceptable radiation limits and agreeing to buy radioactive Japanese seafood – the so-called “nuclear renaissance” is over in the U.S. (and worldwide).”

    Fortunately the nuclear renaissance in LENR is not over at University Missouri, SKINR center. That’s the Good News.

    • JNewman

      August 6, 2013 at 2:38 am

      I would also like to take the opportunity to discuss the impact of LENR+ on the US energy industry. According to all available information, it is identical to the impact of pileated woodpeckers on the US energy industry. It remains to be seen whether one or the other will achieve greater influence over time.

      • Ivy Matt

        August 6, 2013 at 7:39 am

        JNewman, clearly you fail to see the big picture. You see, LENR is a significant cause of seismic activity, as demonstrated by the fact that elevated levels of helium-3 and tritium have been found near volcanoes. Seismic activity created the tsunami that flooded the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station, leading to the meltdown of three of its reactor cores and the release of radioactive materials, which in turn led to the current backlash against nuclear power, whereas the future of nuclear power seemed to be bright before the 2011 Tohoku earthquake and tsunami.

        So you see, LENR led to the current backlash against nuclear power.

        • GreenWin

          August 6, 2013 at 6:42 pm

          Excellent dot connecting Ivy! Small tech question, how’d you measure the H3 underwater?

          Now we’ve established the U.S. fission industry is in massive selloff and the hot fusion boondoggle has been put to sleep – we can move on to the productive expansion of Distributed Energy Resources.

          As predicted by the Edison Electric Inst. earlier this year, DERs are stripping utilities of grid customers. The loss of even 10% grid users by some estimates will send the utils to red ink. What’s the solution? Utilities will need to expand their product line to include DERs. LENR is the most efficient DER around.

          • Ivy Matt

            August 6, 2013 at 8:46 pm

            Don’t be such a pathoskept! Elevated levels of helium-3 and tritium have been found near volcanoes. Volcanoes are created by seismic activity. Obviously the 2011 earthquake is an example of the same phenomenon.

            LENR is the most efficient DER around.

            Did I miss the Consumer Reports review on LENR reactors?

  4. Frank

    August 6, 2013 at 3:16 am

    In case “Bernie” is still around here:
    Would you please tell us what (specific?) questions did you ask Rossi in order to get all those “warm regards” replies. (only Rossi’s answers can be seen on JONP, not the questions – were they “inconvenient”)

    Andrea Rossi
    August 5th, 2013 at 3:03 PM
    Bernie Koppenhofer:
    I have great hopes for the E-Cat and what it can accomplish, and I am pleased about the findings of the other Scientists who have oparticipated in evaluating it so far.
    As this technology is still in the development stage and undergoing rigorous review, I want to allow the continued process of testing and validating that technology to determine its potential and its uses.
    I am pleased with our progress to date and I will share more as our work continues.
    Warm Regards,

    Andrea Rossi
    August 5th, 2013 at 2:31 PM
    Bernie Koppenhofer:
    At a personal level, as I said, I am gratified that you and others continue to be interested in what we are doing related to the technoloogy. We need to be allowed to the opportunity for further assessment, testing and validation. While the process continues, I will not be able to respond to specific questions about where we are or exact timing.
    Thank you for your continued interest and support.
    Warm Regards,

    Andrea Rossi
    August 5th, 2013 at 12:32 PM
    Bernie Koppehhofer:
    The E-Cat technology is undergoing rigorous testing and the results- positive, negative, or inconclusive- will provide further guidance about its potential.
    Warm Regards,

  5. spacegoat

    August 6, 2013 at 7:05 am

    Is it time to “do a Paul Story” (quit) on this subject? Many good posters have already.

    It is disheartening to see formerly insightful, careful posters attracted to the Believer bandwagon just because of a nutty professor video.

    Yes, we know Al Potenza leaps to judgement, he always has and I have called him out about it, but, admins lead articles aside, Potenza’s documentation of the gaping holes in the DGT story is probably the most valuable commentary on this whole blog.

    We’ve been waiting for tangibles for 2.5 years? Even a tit-bit would do. There have been promises of scientific reports and customers. The scientific reports were unworthy of the name for basic and simple reasons. Even though saleable products were claimed years ago, no customer has been spied, even with a telescope. To cover the absence of customers, we must subscribe to “fear of existing corporate interest” as an explanation?

    Remind me again, why no scientific report by an independent and competent institution – why does it have to be a lone supporter (Nelson) or a gang of supporters ? Why no institution? Why no customers?

    • kapytanhook

      August 6, 2013 at 12:28 pm

      Yeah, we used to laugh 1.5 years ago saying Rossi and Defkalion would be pushing deadlines and sales way past 2013. And that there would still be believers even after so much broken promises and tests.

      And here we are.

    • JNewman

      August 6, 2013 at 1:19 pm

      One does have to wonder how many lies can someone tell and how big do they have to be before you don’t believe anything they say anymore. Apparently, in the case of these heralds of the new era, the answer is that it will never happen. Instead, the response is to conjure up excuses: everybody lies, that’s how business works, it’s a strategy, it wasn’t exactly false, it is over enthusiasm, stop bringing up the past, etc. Amazing to watch.

      • Jami

        August 6, 2013 at 1:57 pm

        Not sure that alone would be enough. There has to be some level of teasing going on in order to keep even the most faithful believer happy. The Levi test was one of those teasers – as were Defkalion’s ICCF shows. And it works, apparently. Just look at people like Dough who seemed to have gotten it a couple of months ago or our host Paul. Now let’s imagine a Dough who actually invested money in Defkalion or Rossi and we can see why they’ll keep throwing bits of hope around as long as possible. Maybe it’ll change over time from the initial “We already delivered xxx e-cats to customers and our robotized factory is a magnificence” to “well, this is a complicated business and it takes time to develop” (Rossi already does). First phase is to get investors on board – second is to explain to them why the money isn’t pouring in yet.

        • Dale G. Basgall

          August 6, 2013 at 4:14 pm

          Jami we don’t know for sure if money isn’t pouring into the Rossi and Defkalion camps.

          With new inventions as the e-cat or the Hyperion the stage of development they are in is the optimum state for investment capital.

          They show a potential to work somehow and become a valuable product to manufacture, they are not fully developed or controllable with any pre conceived numbers of output versus numbers of input, so that makes possibilities and potential for the investor.

          I call this the wine and dine stage of the invention process whereas by showing potential like these two products to anyone who wants to invest like venture instead of stocks, commodities, FX, and other, then the e-cat and the Hyperion seem to be a logical investment.

          Also there are eccentric men and women out there looking for ways to dump cash into a project to help our environment.

          When Rossi claimed he was taking no money and financing the e-cat himself until it was working for the homeowner was Defkalion also making those statements were they really taking no investment capital?

          Anyway the wine and dine stage is when you have a product that can be developed within a reasonable amount of time that shows a potential in sales and no one but the inventor knows where it’s development is going next.

          CEO’s and investors are asking you out for dinner at pricey places with plenty of wine or booze. This usually get’s an inventor loose lipped making deals. When that stage is over is when the product hit’s the manufacturing line and a product sellable develops.

          At that instant the invention game changes into reading the written agreements drafted at the onset of wine and dine stage in the invention process.

          So how many dinners has Rossi or Defkalion been asked to? We don’t know for sure but I imagine there has been quite a lot of offers from individuals with very diversified backgrounds.

          It would be interesting to see what their tax statements say they have made, and compared to the total deposited in accounts assigned to them.

          That’s what is kind of fun in federal court you can depose all tax statements and financial records of the infringer and most of the time there will be three sets of those, the IRS version, the sales staff version, and then the actual records in the CEO’s safe.

          Problem is there is no patents issued for either one, Rossi or Defkalion so until a patent issues and someone is sued for patent infringement then we will just have to speculate how much investment capital are those companies taking in.

        • Deleo77

          August 6, 2013 at 5:18 pm

          This is why I don’t think this all gets dragged out for another 2 years. I haven’t been following this as long as others here, but I do think things are running their course.

          With Rossi there has been a big change in the last couple of months. As far as I can tell it’s no more Leonardo Corp., no more licensing agreements, no more Italy… He has completely changed his tune. Now everything is in the hands of his super secret manufacturing partner. Is Rossi going to work in a top secret R&D lab today or is he at his condo in Miami? Unfortunately my bet is on Miami. I think Rossi just tried to pre-empt getting out of his delivery to Hydrofusion and the 6 month test with this new story about the partner. If he was at Siemens or GE would he be asking people on his blog where he can find a Sterling Engine? Probably not. I really thought the Levi test was something good at first, but there are holes in it, and the water has slowly drained out. The 6 month test can get some credibility going for Rossi again, but I am not holding my breath for it to happen. The testers know what to look for this time. They saw the criticisms. My guess is that Rossi will just say that the new secret manufacturing partner won’t allow it to happen, if he says anything at all.

          It seems like just about all of the attention had shifted to DGT. Things seemed to peak with them with the Kim presentation and their demo at ICCF. But then real problems showed up this past weekend. People have said they think DGT may be a measurement error versus outright fraud. I think I agree with that. If it’s a scam, why go on a radio show and say anything at all? If the scam is uncovered you pack up the office, turn out the lights, and head for the hills. If Luca Gamberale (who has a decent resume) is still there in a month, and they are working on the issues, then to me it says they are stuck in a world of bad measurements and confusion. Maybe they come out and just say they were wrong, or they quietly keep working on their ideas, but if there isn’t a big fix to their measurement issues soon, then DGT isn’t going anywhere. They have even said that their business is essentially frozen right now.

          All in all both of these groups seem to be in very fragile positions right now. I am all but prepared to write Rossi off unless some new concrete information comes out that he truly is working at some legit company, or if he agrees to a 6 month test that plugs the holes of the last one. And DGT is hanging by a thread. Unless they can get on top of their measurement issues quickly, that boat is going to sink. I don’t see either story dragging out much longer than another few months tops.

          • JNewman

            August 6, 2013 at 5:55 pm

            Your reasoning seems sensible, but the history of the past 2 years runs counter to it. Somehow, both of these parties seem to have the ability to push a reset button whenever they feel like it and have their advocates go along with it. What happened in the past simply doesn’t matter. All is forgiven and forgotten. So if the recent demo turns out to be completely flawed, it will be ignored for a few months and some new piece of news will come along to take its place. I frankly don’t know why anybody is willing to go along with this sort of thing, but they have for two years and probably will continue to do so. Just wait and see.

          • Al Potenza

            August 6, 2013 at 6:16 pm

            ” The 6 month test can get some credibility going for Rossi again “

            Exactly how are six months of bad measurements with a bad system design better than a month of the same?

            “All in all both of these groups seem to be in very fragile positions right now. I am all but prepared to write Rossi off “

            What do you mean by “write … off”? Ready to admit they are scams?

          • Deleo77

            August 7, 2013 at 1:29 am

            I don’t know if I would say they are scams. Maybe they experienced some kind of heat effect at one point. So there is something genuine in their work. But yes, perhaps the Levi test and the latest DGT demos were not entirely on the up and up. Reading Brian Ahern’s comments, I really do think there is a heat effect out there with NI and H. How far DGT and Rossi actually got with it is anyone’s guess.

            The problem is I don’t believe Rossi or DGT could control it or reproduce it consistently. People expect their devices to perform and there is pressure on them to produce in these tests. Hell, Lance Armstrong cheated in the Tour De France a few times, but he could still ride a bike faster than most anyone. Still, it doesn’t excuse what he did.

      • robiD

        August 6, 2013 at 3:30 pm

        I want to report some “lies” that Sony and Samsung, among the others, said about the flexible displays (quoting form Wikipedia the bold is mine):

        Sony Electronics expressed interest for research and development towards a flexible display video display since 2005. In partnership with RIKEN (the Institute of Physical and Chemical Research), Sony promised to commercialize this technology in TVs and cellphones sometime around 2010. In May 2010 Sony showcased a rollable TFT-driven OLED display.

        In late 2010, Samsung Electronics announced the development of a prototype 4.5 inch flexible AMOLED display. The prototype device was then showcased at Consumer Electronics Show 2011. During the 2011 Q3 quarterly earnings call, Samung’s vice president of investor relations, Robert Yi, confirmed the company’s intentions of applying the technology in handsets and added “… we are looking to introduce [the flexible displays] sometime in 2012, hopefully the earlier part.” In January 2012 Samsung acquired Liquavista, a company with expertise in manufacturing flexible displays, and announced plans to begin mass production by Q2 2012. During Samsung’s CES 2013 keynote presentation, two prototype mobile devices that incorporated the flexible AMOLED display technology were shown to the public.

        They announced mass production and commercialization more than a year ago or even three years ago, what a liars.

        And here something about HP and Arizona State University that should make understand that sometimes things don’t go in the right direction (quoting wikipedia):

        HP and ASU
        In 2005, Arizona State University opened a 250,000 square foot facility dedicated to flexible display research named the ASU Flexible Display Center (FDC). ASU received $43.7 million from the Army Research Lab towards the development of this research facility. A planned prototype device was slated for public demonstration later that year. However, the project met a series of delays. In December 2008, ASU in partnership with Hewlett Packard finally demonstrated a prototype flexible e-paper from the Flexible Display Center at the university. HP continued on with the research, and in 2010, showcased another demonstration. However, due to limitations in technology, HP stated “[our company] doesn’t actually see these panels being used in truly flexible or rollable displays, but instead sees them being used to simply make displays thinner and lighter.”

        • Al Potenza

          August 6, 2013 at 4:36 pm

          Not that it matters much, but look at the difference in wording. Defkalion’s claims are presented as a “fait accomplis” while HP and Sony use words such as “planned” prototype, they “showed a prototype” (which one can presume worked as advertised) and “announced plans to begin” production.

          Rossi and Defkalion don’t announce plans. They say they are doing what they claim — million ecat factories (Rossi) and 45 kW reactors with liquid calorimetry built in (Defkalion) both two years ago. Their demos and tests are not credible. They don’t get 50 million dollar projects from the Army, and they don’t revise their projections downward when things don’t work out.

          HP and Sony also have huge well established product lines and make billions of dollars every year.

          It’s not even remotely comparable and even if it were, simple logic: if HP and Sony are liars, it doesn’t mean that Defkalion and Rossi are telling the truth.

          • robiD

            August 6, 2013 at 7:37 pm

            They claimed “mass production” in Q2 2012
            and commercialization in 2010
            According to your mind those should be lies.

          • Al Potenza

            August 7, 2013 at 4:44 pm

            So you didn’t read or understand a word I wrote. Typical.

          • robiD

            August 7, 2013 at 8:08 pm

            The same as you. Waste of time, as usual.

            But I want to waste another bit of time.
            I inform you that the picture about rumors of the independent tests made on the Hyperion in Milan is pretty complete by now (just a little bit of search).
            It’s clear when and how (the setup) it has been performed, it’s also clear who performed the test, all competent, professionals and well known people on some blogs (with names and surnames and not nicknames, hidden identities or childish behavior). It is clear what were the results as well.
            I think Defkalion in this moment has to do something else than searching for the identity of a paranoid ghost like you.

    • R Hopeful

      August 6, 2013 at 3:34 pm

      Don’t despair, you could be in worse company. At least nobody in this blog proposes a motor-generator combination as a source of energy. We think that LENR can be viable, but the laws of thermodynamics need to be respected.

      • JNewman

        August 6, 2013 at 3:49 pm

        That’s good to hear. Respecting the laws of thermodynamics is a sign of good citizenship.

      • Jami

        August 6, 2013 at 5:14 pm

        “At least nobody in this blog proposes a motor-generator combination as a source of energy.”

        Well, not today, as far as I can see. Page back a bit and you’ll find people like GreenWin vehemently defending a crazy magnet motor just because TÜV had measured its torque and some ex CIA and NSA guys featured on an obscure board of advisers.

      • Thicket

        August 6, 2013 at 5:26 pm

        I’m not sure how many are still around, but this board was home to many Steorn refugees. They came here when Sean McCarthy’s ORBO magnetic motor fraud started to sink into oblivion.

  6. Al Potenza

    August 6, 2013 at 6:10 pm

    I think it was these folls:

    “NOW achieving stable temperatures at 3,300°C and COP at >200. [!!!!]

    Here are some lab pictures that show the LEERS technology being put to use. All of the technology that has been developed around this new process has been verified and validated, and works great. We are achieving stable temperatures of 550°F in our boilers and we can go up to 5000°F. … These are all test tanks. We are planning to build a 1 MW unit that will require a 34,000 W of input for 1 MW of output of steam. It is our intention to run this system with one of our own self-exciting generators. … “

    For some reason, the forum software chokes if I try to post the link so search for “Global Energy Systems”

    For the love of Tesla, can someone explain to me why a megawatt generator requires 34 kW of input power, presumably from the mains? They can’t recycle some of the output? What crappola! And looking at the photos, they have money. Probably from investors.

  7. GreenWin

    August 6, 2013 at 7:28 pm

    As Admin appears to be taking sabbatical it is a good time to reflect on how the U.S. energy industry has fared since Rossi’s first public E-Cat demos. Aside from the expected fear and loathing displayed toward any challenger, we have seen the 62 year $250B string of failures called “hot fusion” lose its funding (ITER is under Congressional scrutiny as it is 300% over budget.)

    We have also seen, the wholesale collapse of U.S. nuclear power industry – featuring an unprecedented FOUR nuke plant closings in 2013 alone, and the fallout of EDF (French Electric Industry) – world’s largest owner/operator of nuclear power.

    Wall Street has rewarded the industry by pummeling largest nuke owner Exelon from $90 to $30 – investment advisers warn “Don’t Buy.” And the U.S. DOE is so befuddled their own 2013 Energy Outlook failed to report one plant already shuttered and 40 scheduled for early retirement.

    Did the advent of LENR have anything to do with the collapse of nuclear power?? No. According to Forbes, American nuclear power’s been incompetent for 25 years:

    “The failure of the U.S. nuclear power program ranks as the largest managerial disaster in business history, a disaster on a monumental scale. … It is a defeat for the U.S. consumer and for the competitiveness of U.S. industry, for the utilities that undertook the program and for the private enterprise system that made it possible.” Forbes Business

    DOE Secretary Ernie Moniz needs prayer, and a cookie (ok, a couple cookies) to dig outta this debacle. Sparge or no sparge.

    • R Hopeful

      August 6, 2013 at 7:56 pm

      Oh dang! It is off-topic, but since it is a slow day I’ll show you what is the future of nuclear power:

      China will quadruple its nuclear power capacity in the short term. The reason is that they have no choice -coal has made the north of the country unlivable.

      I agree that the USA nuclear power industry is a mess. But I think rejection of nuclear power -fision I mean- is the biggest environmental blunder of the second half of the twentieth century.

      What we do in developed countries is of little relevance for the future of nuclear anyway. We can make do with conservation and marginal amounts of renewable power. The 4.5 billion people who are struggling to raise their standard of living don’t have that luxury.

      • GreenWin

        August 6, 2013 at 9:03 pm

        Hopeful, I agree with your points. China must pursue all forms of energy to meet the extraordinary demand there and, as you note, the use of coal is a health disaster.

        As much as I would like to see developing nations pursue renewable DERs (wind, solar, FC micro-CHP, LENR) they will likely build the most expedient which is fission, hydro, fossil.

        However, we have the opportunity in the West to LEAD the way to clean, green, alternatives of which LENR is one. I will continue to pressure DOE, which is a public trust, and Ernie Moniz in particular to get off his duff and visit Dr. Robert Duncan at University Missouri. Dr. Duncan (Hagelstein, Kim, McKubre, etc) can give him 23 years of hard data on why DOE should be funding LENR generously today. There are no excuses except political pressure from fission/fossil lobbies.

        IF Moniz does the right thing and visits Dr. Duncan, he will have the support of the White House and its considerable political clout. To be sure, he’ll get hammered, but the cost of leadership IS a hammering – just ask LENR researchers.

        The USA is in a position to lead the 4.5 billion struggling to raise their standard of living – LENR is a key to doing so. At this point DOE refuses to pick up that key.

        • R Hopeful

          August 6, 2013 at 9:47 pm

          I daydream about the letter I’ll send to my favorite senator when (if?) there is proof that LENR is a viable energy source.

          Not there yet. Let’s see how badly DGT screwed up.

          About funding, my impression is that LENR research at this stage does not need huge investments because the experimental setup is very inexpensive.

          What it needs is attention from a few key scientists. The problem is more the bad reputation of the field than money, although money buys attention.

          Just my unqualified opinion.

        • JNewman

          August 6, 2013 at 9:56 pm

          GW, you are a cipher to me. Whatever your fantasy about me may be, I am actually a professional who spends all his time working on renewable energy technologies from both the technical and the policy side. I have written extensively on the threat posed to the planet by the unbridled expansion of coal technology in China and India. In short, you and I share many views in common. Where we part ways is that you see salvation coming from LENR, which is a technology that has not been proven to exist, much less provide the reliable and massive source of energy required to displace fossil fuels. I can only hope that you are somehow correct in your pipe dreams, but talking about it like it is a done deal robs you of any credibility that I might otherwise ascribe to you.

          I wonder which GW will reply: the babbling loon or the seemingly knowledgeable energy activist?

          • GreenWin

            August 6, 2013 at 10:45 pm

            JN, I actually hold you and your tenacious defense of method in high regard. If in fact you are devoted to renewable energy policy and technology, there is good common ground. Indeed we differ on value and interpretation of evidence with respect to LENR. I agree with Rob Duncan that there is enough to pursue – and enough to pursue using public funds.

            Knowing something of the conscious universe might explain the assumption of progress that you criticize as not “done.” This has to do with focused intention and appears to many to be overly optimistic if not unrealistic – whatever you interpret that to be. It is however remarkably effective.

            As stated earlier, I shall continue to hound DOE and Ernie Moniz to sit down with Dr. Duncan, Hagelstein, Kim, McKubre etc. to honor the public trust he is responsible for. Until that time, I will point to the egregious failures of US energy policy in fission and (hot & cold) fusion. Ernie will have a lot more support than he might think, given a decision to openly meet and discuss funding LENR. Before that time, as Bette Davis once said, he’s “…in for a bumpy ride.”

          • JNewman

            August 6, 2013 at 10:59 pm

            If I interpret what you are saying properly, it is something along the lines of saying that something is happening frequently enough and with enough conviction will make it happen, or at least greatly increase the chances of it happening. If that is a correct interpretation, then I at least see where you are coming from. It’s a peculiar place, but to each his own. It doesn’t even make me angry or bitter. 🙂

          • GreenWin

            August 7, 2013 at 1:29 am

            JN, “peculiar” is not much different than fascinating to others:”

            “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” Dr. Margarete Meade

            “Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.” Dr. Richard Feinman

          • JNewman

            August 7, 2013 at 1:57 pm

            “A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.”
            ― Saul Bellow

  8. Cimpy

    April 14, 2014 at 2:24 pm

    Hope by now no one still believe Defkalion has anything of working. Point is now how much the Greek E Cat could be different from the Rossi E Cat – that is: why should be the latter reliable?

  9. Abd ul-Rahman Lomax

    December 30, 2015 at 8:36 pm

    This is remarkable to review. When this page of discussions began, there had been a public demonstration of the DGT device, and it looked good.

    Yet the settled conclusion here looked like it was clear that DGT had nothing. DGT, like most players in the NiH LENR field — if it is LENR, without knowing ash, we could not truly know that — was secretive.

    That all happened *before* the s hit the fan.

    There was a flow-meter artifact in the demonstration, a serious one, that wasn’t easy to anticipate. This was revealed by a whistle-blower, who violated an NDA, but he had seen what looked like deliberate fraud, and could probably get away with such an NDA violation on a public policy argument. Was it deliberate fraud? Did DGT ever have anything? There is evidence that they did, but none of this was ever possible to independently verify.

    That is a consequence of a very strange US PTO policy that stood for a long time (and may still stand) that any patent claiming LENR had to produce a working model, which is not normally required with patents, and the argument was that LENR is impossible. LENR is not impossible, that’s been known for a long time. “Practical” is a different matter. However, that USPTO policy then created a need for commercial secrecy, the very thing that patent law was designed to avoid.

    The character of this community as it developed shows in the premature conclusion. We do not know exactly what happened to Defkalion. They made a few sputtering noises about that whistle-blower’s revelation, then totally disappeared. In the LENR field, a mistake of those proportions, so public, so easily avoided by simply cross-checks (such as collecting the pumped water to measure it, something done routinely by some), would probably be fatal.

    From the reported behavior of Defkalion representatives, the experiment was set up deliberately to cause the artifact. However, it’s easy to reframe this, to see it as “figuring out exactly what conditions set up the reaction.” It is difficult for me to believe, though, that this could have escaped notice for so long, if any serious scientist or engineer was paying attention, and if this artifact were responsible for their private success.

    It can happen that companies are operated to create appearances and investment, and officers get paid their salaries, then the company goes belly-up when reality catches up, and the shareholders lose. The European company whose employee blew the whistle could have a cause of action, but it’s difficult to squeeze blood from a turnip. Absent proof of specific engagement in fraud, it might not be possible to recover anything.

    However, Defkalion had what appeared to be a good, independent approach. They did work, if Yiannis wasn’t lying through his teeth, showing that the reaction worked with even-atomic-mass isotopes of nickel, but not with the single odd-numbered isotope, thus, if this was correct, blew one of Rossi’s many diversions out of the water. But if they didn’t have an operating reactor, at all, how could they have shown this, with any consistency?

    So what is truly disappointing is that Yiannis, who obviously no longer works for Defkalion, but who has become visible again, isn’t talking. Nobody who knows is talking.

    What a waste!

    I kind of wish I’d signed the Defkalion NDA when it was offered to me! I was not willing to compromise my ability to report neutrally, and I would have had to negotiate better terms and a shorter black-out period, and it simply didn’t happen.

    • Jami

      January 4, 2016 at 12:25 pm

      “There was a flow-meter artifact in the demonstration, a serious one, that wasn’t easy to anticipate.”

      Oh come on. It was blatantly obvious. I nailed it to being wrong by a factor of 20 just by casually glancing at the video. It should have been obvious to everybody and immediately. In fact what the demo showed was totally incompatible with the claimed measurements.