eCatNews Direct to your MailBox

Enter your email address to follow the ecat story ahead of the crowd

I loathe spam. You can unsubscribe at any time. I will not pass your details to a third party

ICCF-18, Missouri University, Credibility & Defkalion GT

July 20, 2013

For the last 2 1/2 decades, cold fusion has been considered a fringe science. Placed alongside UFOs and the Loch Ness monster, it has been easy to attack this controversial subject. A common tactic is to denigrate those involved as idiots, incompetent, fraudulent, or merely misguided. There is a logic trap here. When a scientist dares to take a serious look and concludes that there is something worth investigating he or she is then labelled an insider and therefore suspect. Such was the fate of Prof Robert Duncan, now Vice Chancellor of research at the University of Missouri after he investigated cold fusion at the request of CBS’s 60 minutes. Thus we are reassured that the status quo is reinforced and that newcomers looking through the window can be certain that only freaks live there.

Slowly, slowly things are changing. Although the science is hardly settled at least there are signs that low-energy nuclear reactions are beginning to be taken seriously as a field to be studied. Since Duncan’s conversion, Missouri University has received a $5.5 million grant from philanthropist Sidney Kimmel to open a cold fusion research centre. Today, if you visit the University homepage you will be greeted with a large image advertising ICCF 18, this years annual cold fusion conference to be held there next week. The accompanying article does not hold back by using weak language. It is written by someone unafraid of the brick bats and stones lesser men would pelt him with.

Duncan says of LENR, “It has been undervalued and treated as a pariah science in the past, but now the world is beginning to realise how important it is.”

This is a welcome development. The University is to be congratulated and I agree with everything Duncan says. I also fully understand why a company such as Defkalion GT with their extraordinarily claims might be invited. However, that comes with a caveat. I sincerely hope that my scepticism is misplaced but the announcement of a demonstration by DGT would have been welcome long-ago. Now I cannot help but recall the previous promises that came to naught. Their presentation at National instruments last year was a complete disappointment and the audience were too easy on them IMHO. Confident talk about theory on the far reaches of credibility was a poor substitute for a believable demonstration. Perhaps next week’s announced demo will tick that box and my fears will prove unfounded. Those who have worked so hard to bring the science in from the cold should be wary of giving it all away too easily. Defkalion has much to gain by associating themselves with the likes of NI and ICCF but the benefit will only go the other way if the company steps up to the plate and delivers more than words or views of mock hardware.

Are we about to see something remarkable from Defkalion? I’ve given up expecting anything worthwhile from them but this is their chance to prove me wrong. I truly hope they do.




Posted by on July 20, 2013. Filed under Defkalion,Tests & Demos. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

217 Responses to ICCF-18, Missouri University, Credibility & Defkalion GT

  1. ts

    July 20, 2013 at 1:26 pm

    read the below post where an ecat person admits that the much ballyhooed 1MW plant did not work when “delivered” to the customer. Contras that to what was said by the ecat people at the time.

    This “demo” will be about the same as all lenr/free energy demos: carefully designed to trick gullible people into thinking that something that doesn’t work works. Once the word “demo” is replaced by “independent test performed by unbiased experts in all the appropriate measurement disciplines” then and only then will I believe any positive results. Otherwise, I will never believe any of it works.

    • JKW

      July 20, 2013 at 1:55 pm

      To start with, a video stream is not a demo. There are thousands of perpetual motion machine “demos” on YouTube that look kind of convincing…
      DGT’s presentation (if it ever happens) in its form is nothing more than a circus stunt. If you think about it, why the drama of “real time” show? Just present some solid proof that the gizmo is anything more than yet another copper tube, along with a supplementary vid presenting e.g. interviews with third party individuals involved in the tests, who do have a reputation at stake.

  2. Dale G. Basgall

    July 20, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    Good news admin; there was never any doubt that Cold Fusion/LENR was worth the studies and experimenting and it does take a commitment in stating you are working on the technology.

    I am looking forward to the following week of ICCF posts.

  3. Jami

    July 20, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    Talking stuff up is so common in science (and any place else I imagine) that it’s part of the expected ritual during ramping up a conference such as this.
    Whatever the field is about – it always claims to be very important and on the up and up and THIS close to changing the world forever and would you therefore please participate and tell everybody else about it, like it on facebook, visit the sponsor’s website, write to your congressman and what not. But apart from the DGT video show (eagerly awaited for different reasons by believers and skeptics – none of which have much to do with LENR), this has to be one of the lamest ICCFs ever. Last year already looked like there wasn’t really a reason to meet at all – but at least that featured Cleani measuring the AC performance in the entry hall with a glass-tube and calling it excess heat. Not even that this time.

  4. JNewman

    July 20, 2013 at 3:58 pm

    It is quite telling to compare today’s posts from Frank Acland over at e-cat world and that of Paul here. Frank once again shows that he is completely incapable of distinguishing between believing that LENR has potential as an energy source and believing that Defkalion (or Rossi) are legitimate. He sees those things as one and the same. To his credit, Paul does not.

    • JKW

      July 20, 2013 at 4:39 pm

      I don’t believe that Frank believes in everything he posts. I think that he just found a comfortable niche in the LENR community, creating a fairyland site for true believers, and protecting them from anyone who disturbs their dreams. Then cashing in a small income from suckers who accidentally click on ads that his site is full of.

  5. Shane D.

    July 20, 2013 at 4:40 pm

    DGT deserves the critcism they draw, as does Rossi. DGT made a lot of promises in the past they didn’t keep, but they diverged from Rossi last year when they went silent -while Rossi kept right on with the cheap talk, and started acting like a more traditional, mature business developing a new product.

    During that time, they opened offices in Brazil, Vancouver and Milan while retaining their prescence in Greece. As a believer this global expansion sounds difficult to support with no real product. Coupled with remarks by insiders that sound really excited …like they have LOTS more they want to say, about DGTs advances, gives me hope.

    Then again, putting on my skeptics hat (it is a very small hat 🙂 ), I have to wonder why they would have to put on a demo this week if they had all the business they claim? Pride maybe?… after being beat up by skeptics, perhaps they do want to do this for redemption.

    Still though, at this point it is, disappointingly this far into the game, undefinitive one way or the other. It is DGTs move now to bring something convincing to the table. Rossi did it with his third party test. Now it is DGTs turn.

    If they disappoint this week with the demo, or fail to showcase a happy customer, then they are back in the dog house and their reputation will take a deserved hit.

  6. JNewman

    July 20, 2013 at 4:45 pm

    Putting on my skeptic hat (quite large), what exactly does it mean that DGT has offices in Brazil, Vancouver and Milan while retaining their prescence in Greece? Have you seen these offices? Do you know what is in them? Do you have any evidence that they are anything more than mail drops? You don’t, but choose to believe that they have teams of scientists and business people working on their growing product line. I choose to believe that they are mail drops. Prove me wrong…

    • Shane D.

      July 20, 2013 at 5:21 pm


      Recently they, or a proxy, gave some dimensions for all their office and lab area footages and it seemed more then adequate for what they were doing (selling technology). I don’t recall them mentioning the Brazilian offce though.

      Not going to go look it up. I do enough of that already.

      • JKW

        July 20, 2013 at 5:36 pm

        My office’s dimensions are 104×289 and they are quite adequate for what I am doing. It proves that I am for real.

        • JNewman

          July 20, 2013 at 5:41 pm

          Are those millimeters?

        • JKW

          July 20, 2013 at 7:21 pm

          Ah, the units. They are certainly not furlongs, but does it matter?

          • JNewman

            July 20, 2013 at 7:25 pm

            Of course not. The only thing that matters is that you believe…

          • JKW

            July 20, 2013 at 7:45 pm

            Exactly. Within 1e-6 tolerance. 😉

  7. Al Potenza

    July 20, 2013 at 4:59 pm

    Deleo77 Reply

    July 20, 2013 at 12:49 am

    Well it is kind of funny to think that the DGT guys are practicing their hoax this weekend and making sure the secret wires and magic tricks, whatever they might be, will all go un-noticed and work as planned. But there are plenty of posters here who would say that is exactly what is happening this weekend. So let the magic show commence I guess.”

    Obviously, I can’t predict what Defkalion is going to show but here is a guess.

    I think they might show some sort of flow calorimetry, maybe done correctly, but remember, they use some sort of spark plug. It’s possible that they will put a honking big amount of energy into their system via the spark. It’s hard to account for the energy in a spark. I bet they will do it incorrectly.

    Like I said, that is a very wild guess. I have no idea what those experts in flowery, tangential, and meaningless speech are going to do. I am sure it will be a very entertaining and probably funny show.

    “DGT made a lot of promises in the past they didn’t keep, but they diverged from Rossi last year when they went silent -“

    DGT are not silent, traditional or anything like.

  8. Al Potenza

    July 20, 2013 at 5:32 pm

    “When a scientist dares to take a serious look and concludes that there is something worth investigating he or she is then labelled an insider and therefore suspect. Such was the fate of Prof Robert Duncan, now Vice Chancellor of research at the University of Missouri after he investigated cold fusion at the request of CBS’s 60 minutes. “

    Problem is, Duncan mostly looked at Dr. Irving Dardik’s work. Dardik is a defrocked MD with all sorts of strange ideas. His medical license was revoked. Nothing whatever ever came of the work. There’s an emasculated wikipedia entry about him. Basically, his license was revoked for claiming that he could use some sort of energy wave (quackery) to treat multiple sclerosis, Parkinson’s disease and much more. Not a shred of evidence exists that it works.

    I think Dr. Duncan got taken in. It will be interesting to see how he spends Kimmel’s $5.5 million grant. I doubt that much will come of it other than some nice equipment for the university and some graduate student salaries. That’s not a bad thing… but I suppose we will see.

    • Shane D.

      July 21, 2013 at 1:32 am

      Sooo… from a years ago visit to Energetics for 60 Minutes, you now deduce that Dr. Duncan was corrupted enough by this shyster Dr. Dardik to have innocently converted.

      Quite a stretch don’t you think Al? Since his paid skeptics role (that is why 60 Minutes hired him) Prof. Duncan has been exposed to many others within the LENR field, while also being witness to his own convincing studies.

      He is still a believer by the way. Maybe you missed that part?

      Oh, I know, Prof. Duncan is a conundrum for you… as he is a “mainstream” scientist well up in the hierarchy, whom converted. Can’t attack him directly, so you go the round about way.

      Didn’t work.

  9. Deleo77

    July 20, 2013 at 6:45 pm

    Well I think this is a kind of funny and interesting take below on the conference next week. This to me is the fundamental mystery, or make that fundamental problem, with the intersection of DGT and the conference. If you look at the organizers and speakers at the conference, many of them are impressive scientists.

    It’s like a group of scientists at a conference in 1945 trying to figure out how to create a transistor, and Intel (DGT in this case) gets up in front of the conference and shows them a Pentium Processor. All of these scientists may give their oohs and aahs to the presentation; but some of them, or even one of them, has to say… Wait a second, this doesn’t make any sense.

    They are trying to understand the basics of LENR and this company is up on stage talking as if they are 20 or 30 years ahead everyone else (but Rossi of course). That is where the UFO and pseudoscience comes in. When Frank from ECW and Mary Yugo agree, you know they are on to something. Now if only those at the conference next week could get to the same place, and really make a serious attempt to figure out how to distill what the truth is of DGT’s claims. Otherwise no one is going to take DGT, or the scientists in that room seriously.

  10. Al Potenza

    July 20, 2013 at 9:25 pm

    Well well well… I was looking for something else and found this.

    Marked “extremely confidential”, it’s a report of Nelson’s visit to Defkalion March 7,2012. I’m still looking for his other visit report. Lots of noteworthy things in this… I’ll let you all decide. What grabs me is that other than the spark and “frequencies” (what the f**k does that mean if anything?) there is no power input required while running. Like what? Also it makes gammas and they are *not* shielded. So how about a gamma detector in all experiments. Especially so nobody gets fried more crispy than they’d like? And so on. Nelson really bought this poopoo? Apparently so.

    Their planned ICCF18 video presentation may be simply a rerun of the videos on these pages:

    And this appears to be the report signed by Michael Nelson (innumerable times and places):

    Interestingly, this seems to have disappeared from Defkalion’s web site. A link from Sterling Allan to the document on Defkalion’s web site goes 404. So best bet is that this dog and pony will be the same canine and equine excrement as before.

    There is a long discussion of the whole mess on (thanks Paul for the space) in which Ransom drools all over himself as usual….

  11. Roger Bird

    July 20, 2013 at 10:37 pm

    I see that is still infected with skeptopaths. I didn’t see a single skeptic in the group. But, of course, just scanning I’ll have to take a shower, so looking closely I’d have to scrub down with steel wool.

    • Al Potenza

      July 20, 2013 at 10:45 pm

      I guess as usual, you have nothing to contribute, do you, Roger? Nothing at all.

      Doesn’t it get tiring to have your head so far up Rossi’s colon that you can’t ever see any light?

    • JNewman

      July 21, 2013 at 1:29 am

      Ah, Mr. Bird. And I see that you are also still infected. But that is no surprise considering the severity of your case.

    • JKW

      July 21, 2013 at 11:51 am

      Go and scrub yourself with steel wool, Bird. Do it thoroughly and long enough.
      Your comments on ECW are as lame as here.

  12. Al Potenza

    July 20, 2013 at 10:54 pm

    And look who crawled out from under a rock to attack me (as maryyugo) on where I can’t respond because Paul Auckland censors me out ruthlessly.

    “Joe Shea on July 20, 2013 at 9:00 pm

    Mary Yugo rarely tells the truth; she’s one of those pathological skeptics who cannot be convinced devices like Defkalion’s, the E-Cat and the hydrino reactor of Randell Mills can ever amount to anything. She will be relegated to the dustbins of history, populated by people who said humanity will never master flight.”

    Shea, who publishes a longstanding if idiotic internet news page, American Reporter, never confronts me directly and never states facts. This is an unusual low point even for him. No courage Shea? Can’t debate the issues? Are you really THAT low a coward?

    Apparently he also follows right behind Rossi and Defkalion with his nose affixed to their backsides.

    (scroll down into the comments or search for Shea)

  13. Tony2

    July 20, 2013 at 11:31 pm

    I’m licking my chops over this. I can’t wait to see how DGT weasels out of this.

    All of the demos have a quirk. AR has an unnecessary 3rd wire; DGT needs a sparkplug. Each one is a clear path to a simple power input manipulation deception.

    This oughta’ be good.


  14. Shane D.

    July 21, 2013 at 1:13 am

    Frank over on ECW created a monster today. My gosh… HIS very own headline and thread! Talk about feed an already bloated ego.

    Now Al/MY will never have enough of himself… Not that he ever had much problem with that before.

    Lord grant me the peace…

  15. curiouschris

    July 21, 2013 at 1:31 am

    It is a common feature of believers arguments to say that…

    “A common tactic is to denigrate those involved as idiots, incompetent, fraudulent, or merely misguided.”

    That in itself is misguided and misdirectional. Serious researchers who do serious work and who show a serious attempt to answer the critics are given due respect by all except the most dogmatic of critics (I know there are lots of those).

    On the other hand you have the likes of Rossi and Defkallion. They have shown none of the above qualities and deserve no leniency, their claims are beyond the pale and unsubstantiated(or very poorly so).

    Maybe LENR is moving forward. I personally only see fits and starts. Maybe something will come out of iccf18 but nothing really noteworthy has come out of the previous 17 so I am not hopeful. It will probably be another gabfest.

    • Shane D.

      July 21, 2013 at 1:45 am


      Maybe you missed it but “AL”, the el supremo, can’t get enough of himself, self-proclaimed smartest guy on the planet, ultimate LENR critic attacks all associated with LENR… not just DGT and Rossi.

      Just today, HE has attacked Professor Duncan; former cold fusion skeptic, highly pedigreed mainstream nuclear physicist who is now hosting the ICCF 18 at his home university.

      Maybe you normal run of the mill skeptics should disassociate yourselves from this guy?… just saying.

      • CuriousChris

        July 21, 2013 at 7:57 am

        Saying “I think Dr. Duncan got taken in.” is hardly an attack It is actually very kind, he could have been rightfully a lot harsher.

        Perhaps you need to learn to read what is there rather than what you think is there.

        You have managed to underline my point perfectly, for that I thank you.

  16. curiouschris

    July 21, 2013 at 1:43 am

    I have always said that to understand the human motivation for anything you need to follow the money.

    A percentage of the attendees rely on these ‘conferences’ to provide the material they need to put in the reports they write to keep the funding coming.

    Of course for Robert Duncan must be seen to be doing something with the $5.5M Kimmel grant.

    iccf-18 will be a positive sounding show with promises of greater things to come. It has to be or funding will dry up. but closer inspection will not reveal any meat.

    • Shane D.

      July 21, 2013 at 1:49 am


      Maybe true, you never know.

      Just in case… would you say that a LITTLE BIT LOUDER for the “hot-fusion” community?

    • Deleo77

      July 21, 2013 at 3:49 am

      Yeah, I think it is great. LENR could be a total dead end. But scientists need to take some chances. So what if they try and fail? At least we will know. Kimmel has hundreds of millions, so the $5.5MM is a nice contribution to see if this whole LENR thing has a future. I wish more of the super rich did this. We all only live once (as far as we know), and there is the chance that we haven’t already discovered everything.

      If you read Duncan’s bio, and Professor Kim’s who is also leading the conference, they are established mainstream scientists who I trust want to find the truth and make new discoveries that will help make the world a better place. As for DGT and Rossi, they are the crazy fringe companies. I hope and wish they are on to something, but both of them need to put up or go away.

      • Jami

        July 21, 2013 at 10:42 am

        “So what if they try and fail? At least we will know.”

        No we won’t know. They will fail – but it will be the usual “well, we still think there is something” sort of failure. Even if they fail in the “we’re sure there was nothing” fully fledged Nathan Lewis Caltech sort of way, it won’t kill the Cold Fusion zombie. P&F were at it for six years (half of that with Toyota’s money – and they have deeper pockets than Kimmel) and failed. We still don’t know and probably never will.

    • JNewman

      July 21, 2013 at 4:51 am

      There are two kinds of posts that convince me that the poster has lost the plot: those that mention “pathoskeptics” and those that mention hot fusion. Either way, you are headed down the rabbit hole where Georgehants will be your guide.

      • CuriousChris

        July 21, 2013 at 7:40 am

        Glad I didn’t mention either then.

  17. Bernie Koppenhofer

    July 21, 2013 at 6:32 am

    The quote below is from the 11/29/2011 article in Ny Teknik written by Mats Lewan, he quotes Alexandros Xanthoulis, President of Defkalion:

    “Let’s say I have Rossi’s formula, but I do not say it officially. My scientists have found a way to accomplish it. They need three months. I know what is in the reactor. I know everything. It was done with spectroscopy at Siena University of Padova (…) They tested the reactor without [Rossi] knew what they were doing, he continued.”

    • Dale G. Basgall

      July 21, 2013 at 11:15 am

      Bernie I remember that and a couple things that did not fit for me RE: “Let’s say I have Rossi’s formula, but I do not say it officially. My scientists have found a way to accomplish it. They need three months. I know what is in the reactor. I know everything. It was done with spectroscopy at Siena University of Padova (…) They tested the reactor without [Rossi] knew what they were doing, he continued.”

      1 It does not seem that the “players” (Defkalion – Rossi) have the actual experience to advance the art LENR. Does not run consistent with that type of science. I.E. nuclear science. Like they just found their skills in a Cracker Jack box.

      2 Sounds dishonest, if they did it without Mr. Rossi knowing. Weather anything was working or not it was still Rossi’s IP.

      Notwithstanding the lack of an acceptable explanation when I asked Defkalion on their site regarding the claims of a “self destruct” ability on their reactor, in fact that’s when I got busy and designed a reactor and published it to public domain.

      To me as an inventor/engineer that statement was so far out of line with anything sane from anyone making a product that the whole story fell apart for me and I actually got upset and embarrassed for what appeared in humane claims. Injure the customer for taking something apart is insane talk.

      That’s not right at any viewpoint, and look what potential someone making statements like that would have. The people with the right amount of money could easily acquire their product, it’s just fortunate neither Rossi or Defkalion had what they claimed, we would be toast already with that mentality.

      • CuriousChris

        July 21, 2013 at 11:53 pm

        I agree. The whole self destruct thing is absurd to the extreme and exactly the sort of thing a scammer would say.

        There is no way they could safely engineer a self destruct to protect their so called secret, That’s what a patent is for.

        I have spoken many other times of the ridiculous nature of their other claims so it doesn’t bare repeating. But when it comes to illogical and unbelievable statements only Rossi has outdone them.

  18. Shane D.

    July 21, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    This sure doesn’t sound like Rossi in his JONP today:

    “Andrea Rossi

    July 21st, 2013 at 7:29 AM

    I am spamming all the comments that continue to repeat the same questions. Anyway, I want to repeat the answer to the FAQ:

    1- The E-Cat technology is undergoing rigorous testing and all the results- positive, negative or inconclusive- will provide further guidance about its potential

    2- We have great hopes for the E-Cat and what it can accomplish and we are pleased about the findings of the other scientists who have participated in evaluating it so far. As this technology is still in the development stage and undergoing rigorous review, we want to allow the continued process of testing that technology to determine its potential and uses. We are pleased with our progress to date and will share more as our work continues.

    3- Technological development can require a long process, involving many changes as a technology moves forward. E-Cat is undergoing that process now. This process will continue as long as needed, until such time as the team believes the technology is able to fulfill its promise in commercial settings.

    4- E-Cat is still also in a phase of R&D, as we continue this work more findings will be released and additional technical information will be provided once practicable. As I focus on continuing my research, I will not be able to respond to each specific question.

    Warm Regards,

    Andrea Rossi

    • ts

      July 21, 2013 at 3:53 pm

      In my opinion only, what he is saying is: Now that the Swedish institute showed us how to measure the input power correctly when they failed the ecat, we are no longer seeing excess energy. So, we will use the excuse that we are still in r&d, despite the 12 or so successful “demos” we gave, to avoid giving another demo where we would have to measure the input power correctly. We can also use the r&D excuse to gain extra time to perhaps dupe more gullible people into signing the preorder list or invest in us.

    • Deleo77

      July 21, 2013 at 4:45 pm

      Yeah, this is kind of a go away message from Rossi if you ask me. If you want to go on his blog and talk about technology or life on general, that’s fine, but the days of him talking about the e-cat are over (for now). I think it leads to two scenarios:

      1. Rossi is now secretly employed by some sizable corporation and is working deep inside an R&D lab with a team of scientists and engineers to try to commercialize the e-cat.

      2. The whole thing was a scam, and Rossi is flying out of the coop. He may already be writing these blog posts from some remote location, and no one will ever see or hear much of anything from him again.

      Either way, I am not holding my breath for the 6 month test, the delivery to Hydrofusion, or much of anything coming from Rossi in at least the next year, if not longer. In other words, it could be time to move along. The only news to talk about may be what happens this week with DGT.

      • JNewman

        July 21, 2013 at 5:20 pm

        If Rossi was employed by some sizable corporation and was working deep inside an R&D lab with a team of scientists and engineers, he would not be blogging at all. People get fired for far less.

        • Deleo77

          July 21, 2013 at 6:22 pm

          I agree, but he hasn’t really said anything substantial on his blog since joining up with this supposed corporation. So they could have just handed him this statement to post and told him to stop talking about the e-cat. I don’t know if they would force him to take down his blog altogether. He can just post about life in general if he wants.

          The one thing that has been said here and elsewhere is, it doesn’t appear that Rossi wrote this statement. It is not his writing style, there is no broken English or misspelling of words. It seems like a corporate written statement. So even if Rossi is a fraud and is using this for cover, a good question is, who wrote this for him?

          • JNewman

            July 21, 2013 at 7:16 pm

            I don’t believe that Rossi’s English is broken at all. If you sift though his mounds of drivel, there are times when he uses lots of sophisticated words and elaborate sentence structure and there are times when he misspells “independent”. Like pretty much everything he does, I think it is all for show, including his alleged language problems which only crop up when he is covering his bases.

    • Frank

      July 21, 2013 at 5:03 pm

      I guess Rossi gets inquiries from people who would like to see the “latest” 1MW plant in operation (did you already forget about the one which was supposed to be delivered 3 months ago to USA, viewable for “selected” visitors?).
      And I guess he gets question about how the promised long-term hot-cat test proceeds.
      But real Rossi fans don’t dare to challenge their master with such “pathosceptic” questions, so that they can hang on onto their dreams… Or did Frank Acland ask Rossi when he may visit the 1MW plant in operation?

    • Shane D.

      July 21, 2013 at 5:32 pm

      What I mean is that the style here is not Rossi. No misspellings and the sentences aren’t mangled in his usual way. Half the time I have a hard time understanding him, here… no problem.

      Someone else composed this and summed up earlier Rossi says into something sounding very corporate.

      Deleo may have it right… maybe his swan song as he skedaddles out of the picture, either leaving a crime scene or the beginning of a more professional communications initiative.

  19. RonB

    July 21, 2013 at 3:47 pm

    Very interesting posts from everyone today. I know that I had a bit of hope that what was presented at the upcoming conference would shed some much needed light on the progress to date and at the same time I had wondered if the ultra skeptics would feel a sense of dread at having to face the music of being so wrong about these upstarts.
    It appears that if they do have any doubts, they are keeping them to themselves!

    Al, Would you be willing to sign a NDA, visit DGT and get an official IP dump from them? As for me, Al, you’ve proven that you can have an open mind when you visited the HUG adventure and offered very good and constructive advice.

    I sure wish popeye would get back from his trip and weight in on this. I miss his banter.

    • JNewman

      July 21, 2013 at 4:25 pm

      Ron, you still don’t get it. Those of us of a skeptical bent do not dread being wrong about this stuff. I, for one, would be exceedingly pleased if I was wrong. I have worked in alternative energy technology for years and consider it to be perhaps the most important enterprise for our society at the moment. So if some new technology would come along that solves all our problems, I could not be happier about it. That being said, wanting there to be a magic bullet to solve our problems does not equate to believing a carnival show performer like Rossi or making endless and lame excuses for the unprofessional and ludicrous antics of most of the people in this field. If DGT or anyone else out there actually produces something of value, I will applaud it loudly. But I will not get excited about yet another set of unfounded, unsupported, and preposterous claims just because it would be cool if they were true.

    • Jami

      July 21, 2013 at 4:30 pm

      “…upcoming conference…if the ultra skeptics would feel a sense of…”

      Why? What changed? Where is the brand new, convincing experiment or theory that would justify confidence in Cold Fusion? From the presenters and topics you can see that it’ll be the usual rehash of stuff that wasn’t convincing a decade ago when it was fresh and certainly isn’t convincing now. And it’s so little of it, that they have to pad the agenda with utterly pointless items like Tyler showing the latest version of a silly powerpoint presentation and DGT showing a video. If that sort of conference inspires any feelings of dread, it should be with the believers (but they just, well, believe…).

      • RonB

        July 21, 2013 at 5:19 pm

        If by “believers” you mean that those people that have zero doubt that all the hype from all the upstarts is fact, then probably the number of actual “believers” is very small.
        Personally I believe that label has gotten to the point of just being a couched insult. I use label ultra skeptics for those that think the chances of these upstarts being for real is very close to zero (if not zero).

        Those of us of a skeptical bent do not dread being wrong about this stuff.

        From Google
        Skeptical- Not easily convinced; having doubts or reservations.

        So, you do have some belief that these upstarts are for real?

        • JNewman

          July 21, 2013 at 5:35 pm

          What in the world does it mean to have “some belief”? Do I think it is impossible that Rossi and/ or DGT actually have something? No, I think it is possible. However, I think it is exceedingly unlikely to the point that I strongly believe that they have absolutely nothing. Given the totality of the information that is available, I think that is the only reasonable conclusion to draw. Coming to a different conclusion strikes me as nothing more than sloppy thinking, conflating things that you want to be true and things that you believe are true with things that are preposterous simply because you want a certain outcome. Why else would anyone give Rossi the amount of benefit of the doubt that they do?

          Anyway, whatever happens in Missouri this week, I am sure that believers (I.e. people who have discarded the rules of evidence that they employ in virtually every other aspect of their lives to embrace this stuff) will find something to cheer about and give them the strength to endure another few months of nebulous news. For the rest of us, it will be more of the same.

          • RonB

            July 21, 2013 at 6:41 pm

            However, I think it is exceedingly unlikely to the point that I strongly believe that they have absolutely nothing

            It sounds like you believe they might have something (however small that belief might be), therefore, by definition, you are a believer.
            I guess my point is that labels often don’t really serve their intended purpose (unless that purpose is to just sow discord) and that for the most part, most everyone is a believer to some degree.

          • JNewman

            July 21, 2013 at 7:19 pm

            Whatever you say. By your definition, I am also a believer in UFO’s, Bigfoot, and a host of other woo-ish things. Wow. I think I am going to go over to PESN and see if I can sign up.

          • RonB

            July 21, 2013 at 8:22 pm

            I am going to go over to PESN and see if I can sign up.

            lol.. now don’t go all crazy on me! Ha!

          • JNewman

            July 21, 2013 at 8:47 pm

            Ron, you seem like a sensible guy. How did you get caught up in this nonsense? Most of the people on the non-skeptical side (is that reasonably polite?) turn out to be serial followers of fringe topics. What’s your story?

          • RonB

            July 21, 2013 at 10:06 pm

            I’m a skeptic as well. I just might not be so ready to claim him a fraud as others. There’s a slim chance that it’s on the up-and-up and it’s just a strategy in play that tends to make it look like it does. I think you can’t believe lots of stuff that you read on the internet and that includes all the bad things we hear as well as the positive ones.
            I’m mostly skeptical about the sources of information that I’m reading. If I only read on vortex or ECW my opinion would be much different but since I try to frequent multiple sources it leaves me still wondering about all this.

            I’m mostly here for information about LENR since without it the chance of anyone having anything real slips really close to zero.
            With the possibility of LENR the odd increase a tad. lol (a tad)
            I also love the banter (as long as it doesn’t include personal attacks). Most that post here are very witty and it’s fun to read that.

            After following the MFMP since it started and watching all the experiments very closely I’m starting to question even the possibility of an AHE as a result of just H2/Ni and Heat.

            ps– I wonder if there are ANY on the non-skeptical side?? While Green might appear so, I wonder if deep inside he thinks there’s a chance it’s all just a show.

          • JNewman

            July 21, 2013 at 11:15 pm

            Well, it is inaccurate to lump all “believers” together. There are a few who are clearly out in lalaland, but they mostly inhabit e-cat world. There is, of course, Stirling Allan, who is either a truly pathetic huckster or the most gullible person on earth. Actually, I think he may well be both. Others are playing one game or another. Ransom is it in for the sake of arguing. He is careful to avoid expressing any opinion when pressed, but will defend any LENR claim to the death unless there is a signed affidavit proving it is a fraud. GW is an internet “personality”; I have no idea what he actually believes since he is always in character and which character that is depends on the website. Then we have the angry LENR folks like Alainco, Methusala and LCD who are mostly desperate to become famous with their websites or other LENR-based activities. Lumped together, I don’t think those three dudes add up to one coherent brain. As for whether everybody is really a skeptic, I think some of the folks actually are convinced that skepticism is somehow preventing all of this from coming to fruition. With thinking like that, it is very easy for the likes of Rossi to play his games indefinitely.

    • Jordi Heguilor

      July 21, 2013 at 5:19 pm

      Ron, I wish to second JNewman. The benefits of LENR for humankind are infinite orders of magnitude higher than some egg on my face.

      If an Ecat ever comes to market, I’ll be cutting the line in front of Roger Bird to get one the first ones…

      • Jordi Heguilor

        July 21, 2013 at 5:43 pm

        I want to talk a little about labels: I’m a Believer, an Agnostic, and an Ultra-skeptic.

        I believe that there is a process/processes that produce anomalous heat in a way we cannot explain yet.

        I’m an agnostic about whether this process will ever produce usable energy. I’ve given the example of the radiometer. I don’t have enough data to propose probabilities.

        I’m an ultra-skeptic about the claims of Rossi and DFK simply because for years their actions were more consistent with fraud than with a world changing technology.

        • CuriousChris

          July 22, 2013 at 12:11 am

          Well said

  20. Shane D.

    July 21, 2013 at 5:48 pm

    Peter Gluck is putting his reputation on the line for DGT:

    He surely isn’t downplaying expectations for the coming DGT demos.

    • Al Potenza

      July 21, 2013 at 5:51 pm

      Peter seems to be… well, a nice guy past his prime. I am not aware of his reputation though. What is it for, if you know?

      • Shane D.

        July 21, 2013 at 6:12 pm

        Peter did early LENR research after FPs. Good solid chemistry background as I recall, but I’m sure there is some angle you could work nonetheless to discredit him.

        Admittedly past his prime.

        • Al Potenza

          July 21, 2013 at 7:30 pm

          Well for openers, it may be a language problem but his blog is in English and most often it’s filled with lots of flowery words that don’t make much sense.

          It’s also censored. Not horribly so but basically, he allows Hadjichristos to post but deletes my questions to the guy. The questions are harsh but polite. As they should be.

          • robiD

            July 22, 2013 at 7:54 am

            There are very little place where you are not censored,
            have you ever asked to yourself why?

            By the way, the “flowery words” by Peter Gluck mostly are in Latin or some European language (when are not typos caused by his sight problems). He is a man of learning, he well knows that there is a big part of the world outside the USA and UK.

        • CuriousChris

          July 22, 2013 at 12:59 am

          Where did you find this information? I recently tried to search out his qualifications. I could find none above journalism.

          • Shane D.

            July 22, 2013 at 1:56 am

            I think he has mentioned this on his blog site before. Not really sure, but these things tend to stick in my mind and almost always bear out later.

            I remember also that he is well up there in age, seeing impaired, and retired. He was employed as a chemist in Romania while doing LENR experiments in his spare time while younger.

            Not a very rich target enviroment for you skeptics for sure…

            If you find something though it will probably backfire as usual.

          • CuriousChris

            July 22, 2013 at 2:19 pm

            Ok found something now. retired industrial chemist. better than blogger/journo but his blog is highly biased and most importantly not at all critical.

            Even the best believers need to be critical. They don’t need to not believe but they do need to stand up and be counted when asked to ‘have faith’ rather than just swallow whatever is fed to them.

    • CuriousChris

      July 22, 2013 at 12:58 am

      I didnt know Peter Gluck had a reputation.

      I have read some of his stuff and it doesn’t appear reputable to me.

      It’s sort of like saying Frank Ackland has a reputation or Stirling Allan has a reputation. They do but is it one you would want?

  21. Al Potenza

    July 21, 2013 at 5:50 pm


    “Let’s say I have Rossi’s formula, but I do not say it officially. My scientists have found a way to accomplish it. They need three months. I know what is in the reactor. I know everything. It was done with spectroscopy at Siena University of Padova (…) They tested the reactor without [Rossi] knew what they were doing, he continued.”

    I love that quote. It means Xanthoulis admits to being a thief. The response from Stremmenos and Rossi was fun too. They called him a liar. Thief, liar? It’s sort of what I’ve been saying all along.

    And then there’s this: “They need three months.” REALLY? How many three month periods have gone by since then?

    Hey Bernie, just out curiosity, what accounts for all your interest in this stuff?

    • Shane D.

      July 21, 2013 at 6:13 pm

      How can he Xanth be a thief if Rossi has nothing?

      • Al Potenza

        July 21, 2013 at 7:32 pm

        Excellent point, Shane.

        Correction: unsuccessful thief!

        • Deleo77

          July 21, 2013 at 10:14 pm

          Well Shane makes a good point there. Is it really possible to be a thief and a liar at the same time? If Xanth knew that Rossi had nothing, then why stake his whole investor scam on Rossi? Rossi could have been proven to be a fraud at different times, and if he had, given what Xanth is saying about essentially reverse engineering Rossi’s formula, that probably would have brought down DGT too.

          In the world of skepticism I would say that you would have to look at what DGT is doing as a bigger scam than Rossi. In all likelihood they have taken in much more outside investor money. There is too much evidence of offices and employees to assume that nothing is bankrolling them. They have invited scientists from respected institutions, such as Nelson from NASA, and Kim from Purdue, into their labs for firsthand demos. And they are about to do multiple demos with discussions to follow, in front of the entire LENR community. And this is all based on this guy lying about stealing Rossi”s secret sauce, of which there was never any in the first place? Even if you believe that you got to hand it to Xanth, he has some cojones.

          • CuriousChris

            July 22, 2013 at 2:26 pm

            DGT are riding on Rossi’s coat tails, they always have. They hope they will get some of the Rossi Crumbs.

            Not sure about “Is it really possible to be a thief and a liar at the same time?” it is essential to be both a thief and a liar.

            If DGT were part of the original scam then decided they could do without Rossi’s fumbling and bumbling and poor ability to convince anyone other than the most willing and gullible, then it makes sense they would go it alone. They probably thought they could do better but then found Rossi had much more momentum.

            If Rossi has nothing then DGT has nothing. it can’t be any other way. Especially since they claim to have seen Rossi’s internals.

  22. arian558

    July 21, 2013 at 6:59 pm

  23. Al Potenza

    July 21, 2013 at 7:37 pm

    OK, well the mystery of what Defkalion will do for ICCF18 is evaporating faster than Rossi’s integrity.

    A good clue is given in the above videos in arian558’s post. Also in Peter Gluck’s badly formatted but more or less legible description on his blog:

    Projected COP? 1.1 (!)

    Measurement seems to use a THREE PHASE power input and CLAMP ON AMMETERS! I wonder who’s bringing the cheese (a reference to Alsetalkin’s video showing how to cheat and game power measurements with doubled wires and clamp on ammeters).

    What I want to know is what happened to Defkalion’s claims:

    – kilowatts of power (variously 10 to 45) on a table top?

    – system runs without input power (except for a spark plug) after it’s started?

    – big factories making thousands of reactors a month by 2012?

    – seven independent LARGE FAMOUS companies and/or labs testing Hyperion and reporting results in April 2013?

    I want my results!! Defkalion, you PROMISED. And all you can do is a lame 1.1 COP using an obviously deceptive measurement system?

    • Shane D.

      July 21, 2013 at 10:56 pm


      It says a COP > 1.1…. Not a COP of 1.1. Big, big difference as you, of all people, well know.

      The whole testing protocol sounds pretty professional to me:

      Fluid Calorimetry

      They show a wiring diagram

      How input is measured and how the sparkplug input will be accounted for

      Running a control filled with argon gas

      Qualified observers

      What more could one ask for? Really looking forward to this.

      • robiD

        July 22, 2013 at 10:54 am

        >It says a COP > 1.1…. Not a COP of 1.1. Big, big difference as you, of all people, well know.

        Indeed. Maryyugo is well known to transform reality as he likes.
        The funny thing is that the COP they measured, at the moment, is around 7.

  24. Al Potenza

    July 21, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    In response to Mark Gibbs’ request for comments, I wrote him this:

    “You asked about Defkalion’s upcoming demo as described on Peter Gluck’s blog. Assuming the description is accurate, it’s worthless. First, remember what this company claimed as far back as June 2011: 10 kW desktop reactors being tested by the dozen. Slightly later, they said they had two factories under preparation to make thousands of reactors during 2012. They said Greek authorities had been given working samples to test. As recently as April of this year, they claimed seven major companies were testing their reactors *independently* and that the results would be made public. None of these claims have been substantiated.

    Now, Defkalion proposed to display a test which yields a COP of 1.1. That’s insignificant for any purpose because of likely measurement errors. It’s simply silly in the light of their previous claims! They should show a multi-kilowatt reactor working with no input power after it’s started. Worse yet, they will repeat Rossi’s potentially deceptive scenario– they will use three phase power monitored by clamp on ammeters. Why do they need input power at all? They claimed earlier that their reactor would run itself, except for a sparkplug power source, after it had been started. They’ve been claiming multiple units under test with multiple kilowatts output for extended periods, since June 2011! Why not show one of those?

    The observers seem to be unknowns (unknown to me anyway) except for Mats Lewan who is the individual who allowed Rossi to get away with all sorts of errors and potential deception in every test he witnessed.

    So what will this prove? Absolutely nothing. After more than two years of extravagant claims, all of which seem to have been lies.

    What would be needed? As always, a test done by a credible government lab or university department (done as an official project of the department), totally independent of the claimant. That would mean that the claimant would supply the device alone and technical support in terms of instructions only. The claimant would not otherwise participate in the test. All input power, measurement methods, calibration methods, and measurement tools would be selected and provided by the testing organization. The test could not involve hands on work by any of the claimant’s associates or anyone who had participated in previously botched test such as Rossi’s.

    It’s really pretty simple. If any of the extravagant claims from Rossi or Defkalion were real, such tests would have been performed a year or more ago.

    Just for the record, I favor LENR rather than oppose it. I hope some of the balance of the research is valid. But the more I see the LENR community giving support to Rossi and Defkalion, the more I doubt that there is anything to it at all.

    You can quote any or all of the above using my pseudonym. I don’t reveal my real name because I don’t want to be stalked, hassled or sued. I don’t have the time for that. In addition, I am not claiming to be any sort of authority. I hope my comments stand on their own merits.

    Keep up the good articles. They’re well written and objective. Thanks for that!


    “M. Y. ”

    If you’d like to write him, his public email is as per his open web site.

  25. Al Potenza

    July 21, 2013 at 8:22 pm

    And to Mats Lewan:

    “Hi Mats,

    Good luck with the Defkalion demo. Some questions you could ask them while you’re there:

    – why show a COP of 1.1 when you have claimed that you have reactors which run without input power once started (except for spark plugs)?

    – where are the 10 kW and larger reactors you were testing in late 2011? Why not show one of those allegedly high power output devices?

    – where are the test results from the seven major companies which you said tested your reactors successfully in April 2013? Who were the companies? Why are they silent?

    – why use three phase power? why use clamp on ammeters? These are prone to errors and deceptive practices?

    – why not let an independent agency such as a government test lab or major university department conduct a test in which you supply *only* the Hyperion and they provide the choice of measurement methods, calibration methods and their own instruments?

    Thanks and good luck getting them to respond to those questions!


    “M. Y.”

    Anyone think I will get any answers?

    • Dale G. Basgall

      July 21, 2013 at 10:04 pm

      Al here’s what should be expected in answers “if” the truth were taken as an obvious fact from observation.

      – why show a COP of 1.1 when you have claimed that you have reactors which run without input power once started (except for spark plugs)?

      A = It will appear we have changed and that others will be more dazzled for longer than if we claim what we had earlier but have no evidence in tangible form to back that statement up. 1.1 is a piece of cake and we are sure to make it appear as if it is happening even after all the grid power is fed into it prior to starting the self run mode.
      The spark plug is for the secret stuff, we cannot talk about electrical spark from induction coils because that is explainable and works with a little math applied and magnetic fields.

      – where are the 10 kW and larger reactors you were testing in late 2011? Why not show one of those allegedly high power output devices?

      A = The 10kw reactors are powering our spaghetti factories and are used for making the secret sauces of our ravioli. We cannot show these to anyone because of the sauce trade secret, we can’t even put a label on it right now. We will release the information after our patents have been issued for the sauce, you will understand this when appropriate for you to know.

      – where are the test results from the seven major companies which you said tested your reactors successfully in April 2013? Who were the companies? Why are they silent?

      A = We buried the information from the 7 in back of the bar lab we have and formed a star with the ravioli jars, each jar has the appropriate information to make it to the next commercial spaghetti heater. The companies have signed NDA’s as to not allow their disclosure to you out there without a need to know. The 7 have been silenced by witnessing the self sustain operating mode of our reactor.

      – why use three phase power? why use clamp on ammeters? These are prone to errors and deceptive practices?

      A = We use the old standard three coconut shells and one nut under one of them with one hole in the table (secret)it should work well with the measurements in self sustain mode for the reactor. Clamp on meters are better and cannot be affected by opposing magnetic fields, there is no magic used in this set up.

      – why not let an independent agency such as a government test lab or major university department conduct a test in which you supply *only* the Hyperion and they provide the choice of measurement methods, calibration methods and their own instruments?

      If we had one that actually did what we have contended in the past I am sure an independent lab could test one. The problem is that these independent labs require something that starts and works and is in a 3 dimensional form. There instruments would work better if we could hook them up like ours.

      That may be close to the actual observed facts in this case Al. So I like to understand what they will say and compare it to what actually transpired as reality in fact.

    • dsm

      July 21, 2013 at 11:17 pm

      The DGT demo hasn’t even happened but it is already being trashed. Commonsense says that it should take place 1st then (get trashed by those who intend trashing it no matter what).
      The claimed cop some posters are deriding as being a mere 1.1 isn’t as these people are claiming but is a min 1.1. That is a big difference in meaning but when one is intent on undermining every aspect of a demo before it occurs, little details like that can be manipulated and exploited mercilessly.
      The issue re defining a min cop is that 1.1 demonstrates over unity which is a scientific breakthrough and the actual test can and will show a higher cop but greater than unity is revolutionary.
      Any issues to do with testing protocol are fair game & no doubt future tests can address such challenges.
      For myself am interested enough in what DGT are doing to want to see this demo. Am ‘hoping’ it gets validated by respected 3rd parties afterwards.

      • RonB

        July 21, 2013 at 11:26 pm

        Ahhh…. the excitement builds. This is almost as good as when the secret details of the smoke monster was about to be revealed in “LOST”.
        Tomorrow may require a second bag of popcorn!

        • dsm

          July 21, 2013 at 11:39 pm

          I betting it will be 3+ bags of popcorn !


        • Roger Barker

          July 22, 2013 at 2:16 am

          Whatever happens tomorrow it will NEVER be as bad as what happened in LOST.

      • Deleo77

        July 22, 2013 at 12:36 am

        It will get trashed by some here no matter what, because anything short of an independent 3rd party test has a chance of being a scam. There is always the secret wire theory. Even if you can see the wires, there could be hidden strands inside the wires, or a dead wire sneaking hidden power through.

        Given this it would be great if someone in the audience would ask DGT if they can do a black box test of the device. If not, why not?

        • dsm

          July 22, 2013 at 1:57 am

          “Will get” ?


          Change that to “is well and truly already getting”

      • spacegoat

        July 22, 2013 at 2:16 am

        “The DGT demo hasn’t even happened but it is already being trashed.”
        False. The written protocol is being trashed.
        Science is a written language. The evaluation of science is performed by reading and thinking, not by watching video of a magic show.

        I have no objection to magic shows if it pleases some people, but association with a supposed scientific conference ICCF18 is out of order. One wonders why Robert Duncan allows it, but reading about his history on Krivit’s and Wavewatching sites, one can understand.

        • dsm

          July 22, 2013 at 4:45 am

          ‘False’ ?


          I humbly beg to disagree. There are people trashing every aspect of the demo from the protocol through to the supposed witnesses.

          Again I’ll argue that the demo should occur 1st so we know exactly what we are ‘trashing’ rather than speculating about what deserves trashing.
          But …
          The show & the wild conjecture rolls on as it will.
          Cheers DSM

    • Jordi Heguilor

      July 22, 2013 at 2:34 am

      Al, what an excellent idea to post these questions for Mr. Lewan to ask. They are very valid ones.

      I’m pretty sure he reads this Forum, so if he doesn’t, his journalistic credentials will take a hit. If he does, DFK’s dog and pony show will be ruined.

  26. Roger Barker

    July 22, 2013 at 1:13 am

    Well let’s see what this demo is going to be. Hopeful as always but not holding my breath.

  27. CuriousChris

    July 22, 2013 at 1:24 am

    From the test protocol outlined on

    “To spot check the power measurements with independent loop meter provided by DGT (RMS factored post test on LabView data)”

    How can a spot check be independent if it uses DGT’s equipment?

    Why is it a ‘spot check’ why not continuous?

    And I must shout this out because so few understand its importance.

    CALIBRATION – Without it in an independent certified fashion before and immediately after any run all results are void.

    • Shane D.

      July 22, 2013 at 1:37 am


      Very good. In best skeptic fashion you have already laid the foundation for denial even before the event unfolds.

      Al beat you by a few hours by the way.

      Never too late though.

      • JNewman

        July 22, 2013 at 1:51 am

        Keeping score, Al and Chris don’t like the demo, Shane likes it. The plot thickens.

        • Shane D.

          July 22, 2013 at 2:10 am

          Admit it JN; you are excited also about tomorrow.

          We all are… skeptics and believers alike. Something is happening here we can’t all quite grasp. We are either on the cusp of an exciting, game changing, new energy frontier, or yet another soon to be revealed overunity scam.

          Take your pick and take sides. History may very well be here to take note.

          So much at stake whether it be for us believers to be validated as right, while alternately so, for our skeptics here, to be recorded in the books as right.

          We are here for a reason. Good reasons whatever way it ends. Sure beats watching reality TV and history will note that also.

          OK, am I being too melodramatic?

          • JNewman

            July 22, 2013 at 2:14 am

            You are being melodramatic. I predict that the events of his week’s conference will have absolutely no consequences beyond providing grist for renewed jabbering on a handful of obscure websites. Furthermore, I expect that virtually nobody’s opinions will be changed by anything that happens. So am I excited? Uh, no.

          • Shane D.

            July 22, 2013 at 2:29 am

            Self… never ask a skeptic if you, a believer, is being “melodramatic” again.

          • Jordi Heguilor

            July 22, 2013 at 2:41 am

            Shane, this would be exciting if it were a proper independent demonstration. The way it is, it will prove nothing.

            One problem we skeptics have is that we can lose (an Ecat for sale at Home Depot would convince the hardest skeptic in the world) but we can pretty much never win, short of a signed confession by Rossi. Even if he were arrested, convicted, and send to prison for fraud some Believers would say that this is all part of the conspiracy to suppress LENR.

          • Shane D.

            July 22, 2013 at 3:03 am

            “Even if he were arrested, convicted, and send to prison for fraud some Believers would say that this is all part of the conspiracy to suppress LENR.”

            Actually Jordi, that quote is very prescience of you… which makes this all the more interesting and historical.

            Rossi has been arrested, convicted and sent to prison for fraud…

            Yet we believers still think something is about to explode on the energy front regardless.

            Makes this all the more interesting.

            Take care

          • Deleo77

            July 22, 2013 at 7:34 am

            I give it a 90% chance that what happens with DGT this week stays in these forums and it provides another week or two of back and forth for people here to take sides on. It’s that other 10% where the demo is a show-stopper and within days lead articles and stories in Time, The NY Times, CNN, etc. all saying that cold fusion has arrived, that makes me to wonder for about 20 seconds or so before coming back to reality. So here’s hoping for the 10% tomorrow.

      • CuriousChris

        July 22, 2013 at 1:55 pm

        Just makes it easy to say I told you so afterwards. Cause without the required proof and calibration I told you so is what you’ll get.

        You see I can predict the future

    • spacegoat

      July 22, 2013 at 2:00 am

      They will perform a run with Hydrogen and directly after, without changing any parameters, a run with Argon.

      Assuming the observers can:

      1.Verify the nature of the gases.
      2.Verify no parameters were changed

      then what would be your opinion about it? In my opinion, all this would prove is that Hydrogen is required for the machine to become active. It proves nothing more.

      ICCF-18 should exclude this DGT “show” because it is anti-science, indistinguishable from a magic show to entertain children. If later it proves to be a scam/idiocy, the effect on the field LENR will be very negative.

  28. blaze

    July 22, 2013 at 4:43 am

    Kinda hilarious watching the pathoskeptics playing wackamole.

  29. RonB

    July 22, 2013 at 6:33 am

    I just scanned the protocol so I can’t speak to any facts but it would be very cool if they were just to start it up and then remove the power and let it continue to heat for the entire 5 days of the conference. All the while people could peek in on it any time they wanted and us on the fringe could keep an eye on it via video link. If there was no doubt that power was removed all the while, that would convince me.

    • BigWillyJohnson

      July 22, 2013 at 6:55 am


      Of course! that is what everyone wants, skeptics, believers fence posts, martin fieshmans’s ghost. If anyone had or does do anything like that this entire debate would be irrelevant. That why I dont believe in all this rossi fables. Its a weave of tales and possiblys with no definitive, obvious demonstration like this.

      Sorry for spelling and good day

    • CuriousChris

      July 22, 2013 at 2:00 pm

      It would be great if either of them (Rossi DGT) would do some real science and irrefutably prove they have something.

      For now its nothing more than a way to while away a few spare minutes. while we wait for more important things to occur like my latest compilation to finish.

  30. Jami

    July 22, 2013 at 7:52 am

    Defkalion are funny. Listening to them bragging about the “biggest companies in the world testing DGT rectors” with their products (“planes… eeeeer… cars…. eeeeeeer….. eeeer…………. eeeeeeer……. eeeeeeeer….. *caughing explosively*……. eeeeeeeer…..ships….”) on PESN or their silly “all you never wanted to know about particle physics but have been forced to find out” ICCF-17 presentation was cringe-worthy enough. But this “test protocol for public demo” is the icing on the cake. Have they never seen a proper test protocol in their lives? I mean they’re barkeepers and you probably don’t need a protocol to warm a pizza in a microwave oven or uncork a bottle – but, guys, there is always google… look it up if you haven’t got a clue. (And it’s “et al” or “at alla”… not “et all”, for crying out loud)

    • dsm

      July 22, 2013 at 8:51 am

      are you trying to out do Al/Mary at trashing their demo before it has even happened.
      I am in awe of your ability to tell us all what happened before it did. you are a psychic marvel LOL!.
      Cheers DSM

      • Jami

        July 22, 2013 at 11:46 am

        It is nothing next to your ability to tell me what I’ve written, Dough. Where am I trashing the demo? I’m trashing the “protocol”.

      • BigWillyJohnson

        July 22, 2013 at 3:10 pm

        DGT deserved to be trashed! Geeze. I will be the big bad jerk here. They suck and are scammers/morons.

        They cried wolf 359 times and each time it was BS. Now to be reasonable we are supposed to wait and see if this time they cry wolf it is for real???

        Gimme a break. Good luck

        • dsm

          July 22, 2013 at 10:46 pm

          Just how many alias do you post under my friend – can’t you make the point well enough with just one ?.



          (Oh I forgot, you never make any worthwhile points at all 🙂 )

          • JKW

            July 23, 2013 at 3:42 am

            And this was supposed to be your “ball kicking” comment, DSM, that you referred to on Quax’s blog? It is kind of lame, almost ECW-like. Or maybe you are not the same DSM. It must have been the other Doug.

        • BigWillyJohnson

          July 23, 2013 at 3:26 pm

          Hey DSM,

          Are you talking to me? BigWilly, BigwillyJohnson are the same people. Oh and grumpkin when i was on a game of thrones kick.

          I thought my point was well said and concise. I will not be mean and offer any counters.

          I wish you the very best in “waiting and seeing” on Defkalkion.

          My humble opinion is that DFK are completely ridiculous and anyone who believes they might have something is a mush headed gullible.

          Happy Tuesday

          • dsm

            July 23, 2013 at 10:28 pm

            But my fried. Most sane people would want to see & do some analysis of the demo 1st then make such statements.
            But then we have those who …

          • BigWillyJohnson

            July 24, 2013 at 2:50 pm

            No DSM,

            You are incorrect I am afraid. Most people would take them for a standard “free energy” scam as their past two years fully illustrates.

            You should have said YOU will want to wait and do some analysis on their latest lie/magic show.


  31. Dr Bob

    July 22, 2013 at 8:11 am

    Hi there,

    What a fabulous day this will be!
    I made a little teaser for the tests today.

    Please LIKE, and remember, sharing is caring!


    • JNewman

      July 22, 2013 at 12:41 pm

      Um, you all do realize that the Defkalion demo is scheduled for Tuesday,not Monday?

      • RonB

        July 22, 2013 at 1:21 pm

        There’s something going on there now. They are showing the reactor running (I think).. I don’t speak Italian so I’m not sure but the graphs show something is hot! LOL

        • JNewman

          July 22, 2013 at 2:15 pm

          Right you are. Well, what do conference schedules mean anyway?

        • Shane D.

          July 22, 2013 at 2:39 pm

          Italians communicate mostly by hand gestures, and judging by the speed, variety, and quantity of hand movements they were clearly very excited about the event.

          Either that or this was really a boxing match in which case no one landed a blow.

          • RonB

            July 22, 2013 at 3:08 pm

            LOL at boxing match! The comments are interesting too. I had thought about taking the video and dubbing English over it. I’d have them saying all kinds of obscure things about fusion and their reactor. Maybe I could borrow the audio track from a 50’s B scifi movie.

            Newman, the one tomorrow is in English (or so I’ve heard)

        • R Hopeful

          July 22, 2013 at 4:14 pm

          The demonstration in Milan does not prove anything. At the start of the transmission the journalist clearly says as much: this is just a broadcast to show this technology to the public, not an attempt to prove that it works for real.
          I’m disappointed, but this is a reasonable first step.
          The reporter mentions multiple times that there could be fraud. At some point the Defkalion physicist -Luca Gamberale- says that he wants to talk about errors, not fraud -one can only take being called a lier so many times.
          They did not show any new information.
          I just can’t imagine two different groups of people -Rossi and Defkalion- trying to pull off such a scam. It is too public and too ground breaking. Now that Defkalion has publicly shown that the process is reproducible and powerful there is no reason to delay independent verification.
          My opinion is that with Rossi at last showing some results, Defkalion had to rush to prove their point.

          • Al Potenza

            July 22, 2013 at 4:45 pm

            If Gamberale doesn’t want to be called a liar, perhaps he could show us the reactors that made 10kW on a tabletop that Defkalion claimed to have in mid-late 2011?

            Perhaps he can put us in touch with the Greek agency which was given them to test? The one a member of the Greek Parliament said didn’t exist?

            Perhaps he can show us the results of the seven major world class companies which tested Hyperion with positive results in April 2013? Maybe someone could name just one of those companies and arrange an interview?

            COP “greater than 1.1”? After more than two years of what they reported as extensive and successful testing, they can’t provide the actual COP? How does that happen?

            And finally, they could restore their old deleted forum and provide answers to all the polite and relevant questions they were asked to which they originally provided only sarcastic answers or deletions.

            Maybe someone can ask Gamberale about that.

          • R Hopeful

            July 22, 2013 at 5:08 pm

            Actually, they have just shown us the device. Now we need tests that prove that it works.

          • robiD

            July 22, 2013 at 6:53 pm

            maryyugo you are anymore clear headed.
            They have just showed you the reactor you are talking about.

            Maybe if you are patient and stay calm, they will show you some independent verifications when they have planned the development with their partners.

            The COP is ~7.4/1.7 = 4.3

            The output takes less than 15 minutes to reach the maximum.

            Keep your venom for tomorrow when they are going to show more details and to answer to specific questions.

  32. spacegoat

    July 22, 2013 at 3:29 pm

    What do people think of the scam probability theory of LENR.FTW & Timar on ECW:

    … for a company (not an individual) to unambiguously assert these capabilities to the general public. There could be legal consequences if they are lying.


    … they indeed have an Italian branch in Milan with a lab and technically versed employes. … It wouldn’t make any sense to have international branches of research laboratories for the purpose of purporting a scam.

    I tend to agree with them though I have not watched the video magic show. However, the crucial point is: proving the apparatus unambiguously would be easy, so why isn’t that being done? What is the purpose of the show?

    • Shane D.

      July 22, 2013 at 3:53 pm

      The only good reasons I can think up Spacegoat is for their pride and/or Rossi. As you say; if they have such great technology with such robust business as they claim… then why bother with this demo?

      Maybe though they just felt a need to show the public and, more importantly, their LENR peers this ICCF that they aren’t all talk no substance.

      Or maybe they were spurred on when Rossi provided his third party report and felt the need to stay out ahead of the emerging competition.

    • Jami

      July 22, 2013 at 4:07 pm

      I’d be happy if they’d name just one of the world leading business partners and integrators which they’re supposedly working with. The “biggest companies” making “planes and… eeeer… *cough*… cars” would include Boeing or Airbus, Volkswagen, Toyota, GM or Daimler, wouldn’t it? One of them should be available for comment or at least not insisting on being kept secret. But, of course, the mere idea is silly. Big Willy is absolutely right. DGT are a f*cking joke. Even speculating about what they could do if even a single percent of their claims weren’t lies is a waste of time.

  33. Shane D.

    July 22, 2013 at 4:05 pm

    Found this comment from the ICCF by Melich interesting. I’d like to know what other tidbits he passed on to the audience:

    A most interesting observation by Mike Melich was that Rossi in 2009 was demonstrating Cold Fusion experiments based on hydrogen-nickel to generate heat almost as a whimsy. Since then, however, Rossi has clearly become market oriented.

    There must be many of these type anecdotal stories floating around within the LENR research community. In this case it certainly adds some legitimacy to Rossi.

    • Jami

      July 22, 2013 at 4:18 pm

      Yeah – that makes sense. Rossi initially invented Cold Fusion because it seemed a fun thing to do and he was bored at the time. After a year or two he thought he might put it to use and heat his office with it. NEVER did he even dream about making money with it. He had his hands full with making highly successful, revolutionary thermoelectric converters, building waste-to-fuel plants and transporting gold to Switzerland. Then Focardi came along and asked whether he could do something for cancer sick children and Rossi said “Yeah, why not… I’ve got that Cold Fusion device lying around here somewhere – let’s make a product out of that.” and the rest is history. Michael Melich is a horn of plenty for wisdom like that.

      • Al Potenza

        July 22, 2013 at 4:32 pm


  34. Jordi Heguilor

    July 22, 2013 at 4:19 pm

    I watched some of the video already posted. The grey haired guy (from DFK, I guess) compared the reactor with one of the original transistors, something that wii evolve tremendously with the years. So much for the table-top 10 Kw reactors that they already had 2 years ago.

    The young bald guy complained about the scientists that refuse to even look at the experiments. Now they are not the Brothers Wright, but Galileo.

    The guy in the shirt (a scientist, I guess again) defended scientists talking about the many (some well funded) intents of replication of P&F, all unsuccessful.

    The lady skeptic said something to the effect that what they were watching was more about industry than science.

    I’ll be happy to read corrections to my translation.

    • R Hopeful

      July 22, 2013 at 4:31 pm

      Just to fix the characters:
      -the guy in the shirt and tie is Marco Ripani, a scientist. He basically said we need more tests.
      -the young bald guy and the gray-haired older guy are reporters for Italian radio.
      -the guy with a moustache is Luca Gamberale, a Defkalion physicist.

      • Al Potenza

        July 22, 2013 at 4:38 pm

        Looks like a mostly empty room with a pile of what seems to be hastily assembled junk and a bunch of people scratching their … uh… heads.

        Elsewhere, it says they are making steam. So many kW in (electrical heat) and so many out (steam) and the ratio is about 6. Something vague, as usual, about this here:

        They really are copying Rossi.

      • Jordi Heguilor

        July 22, 2013 at 5:25 pm

        Thanks for the clarification, Hopeful. Now it makes sense that at some point someone told Gamberale that he could not speak being an interested party.

        But the reporters fooled me, they were really taking the Defkalion side, they even seemed a little impatient with the CICAP lady.

        @ Al, I don’t really speak Italian, I can understand a little.

    • Al Potenza

      July 22, 2013 at 4:39 pm

      Thanks Jordi. I take it that you speak Italian. Well, tomorrow should be interesting.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        July 22, 2013 at 7:53 pm

        Al…I hope you are right, or LENR is going to get a black eye. Today’s news conference did not give me any confidence.

        • dsm

          July 23, 2013 at 3:23 am

          Why should you have any confidence in DGT – you have been posting repeatedly for 2 years your conviction that DGT “stole Rossi’s reactor”.
          In those 2 years you have ignored any attempt to debate the point ?
          You ignore Andrea Rossi’s published statements that they never got near an eCat but rely of a translated news report conducted in another language to contradict Andrea because you want to believe the ‘story’.
          Andrea Rossi has never instigated any legal action against them. IMHO he won’t either.
          You ignore the technical descriptions that show a quite different process used by DGT.
          You *always* ignore the question as to where Andrea Rossi got his eCat from (Piantelli’s 1995 patent).
          And, you ignore any discussion of Piantelli’s published and angry claim that Focardi sought help from him (Piantelli) and was passing this help to Andrea Rossi (2007/2008) without telling him (Piantelli) he was doing so.
          IMHO, you are a great example of how utterly blinded one can get when one is totally and emotionally committed to a flawed belief and who simply ignores contrarian evidence.
          So now you join in and rub shoulders with the hated skeptics when it suits. You just ignore it when anyone asks questions that might dent your faith in your adored Andrea.
          It is all such fun though, isn’t it.

  35. Bernie Koppenhofer

    July 22, 2013 at 5:28 pm

    Defkalion’s “demonstration” give me a break. They got me up a 4am to see an unsophisticated news conference! Am I wrong or was that billed as a demonstration? Compared to Rossi’s third party test that looked like a carnival show. For the “demonstration” today they had better bring in a couple more folding tables and their sophisticated equipment or LENR is going to be set back another twenty years.

    • Al Potenza

      July 22, 2013 at 5:31 pm

      Their “real” demo is tomorrow. Don’t worry, Bernie. If you liked Rossi’s, you’ll probably LOVE Defkalion’s.

      • Deleo77

        July 22, 2013 at 5:48 pm

        Well tomorrow is their presentation to the LENR community. To the folks at DGT – I suggest you spend every hour between now and then working to create a professional and informative demo for what is going to be a sophisticated audience. You basically have one chance to get this right tomorrow and establish some credibility in the scientific community.

        • Jami

          July 22, 2013 at 8:24 pm

          “a sophisticated audience”

          I’m sure Tyler van Houwelingen will find it all perfectly convincing and not a little hard to swallow… or who did you have in mind?

      • JNewman

        July 22, 2013 at 6:13 pm

        I have low expectations for DGT, based on their track record. What is more interesting to see is how the “distinguished scientists at ICCF” will behave. Will they act like actual scientists and ask the tough questions, or will they circle the wagons and stick up for anyone who raises the LENR flag? Most of these folks have spent years if not decades trying to make LENR work. Are they going to let some Greek guys from nowhere get away with claims that make a travesty of all of their work without pushing them or will they demand the goods? If this field is ever going to escape the bounds of fringe science, its practitioners have to stop behaving like snake-oil salesmen and start acting like scientists.

  36. Roger Barker

    July 22, 2013 at 9:29 pm

    A link to the DGT demo:

    I am honestly surprised there are no comments from Al/MY and co.

    • Al Potenza

      July 22, 2013 at 9:49 pm

      Nothing to comment about, Roger. It looks like a pile of junk on top of a table. And some folks standing around scratching their bu… uh… heads.

      In addition, when I click on a video, all I get is a black box and an error “There was an error playing this video”.


      • Roger Barker

        July 22, 2013 at 10:16 pm

        And when has that ever stopped you from shooting your gob, Potty?

  37. Roger Barker

    July 22, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    These DGT guys are delusional if they think they can put together a pile of rubbish and fool people in to thinking it produces 6 times as much energy as it consumes.

    They are beyond delusional if they think it’s going to bring in bucket loads of investor cash.

    • RonB

      July 23, 2013 at 12:31 am

      pile of rubbish

      You don’t mince words do ya? LOL

  38. blaze

    July 22, 2013 at 10:26 pm

    Question for Mary Yugo: are you going to have a nervous breakdown if Defkalion and Rossi prove out?

    • JNewman

      July 22, 2013 at 11:00 pm

      Think about it this way, Blaze: if the skeptics are dead wrong, we will be amazed, confounded, and absolutely thrilled that these jokers actually came up with a great new energy source. If you believer types are dead wrong, how will you feel?

      • RonB

        July 22, 2013 at 11:26 pm

        How about contrite? 😉
        As for me it will go to prove that old saying “if it sounds too good to be true, it’s probably not true”. Of course I’m the type that holds some small belief that it’s possible that some of the crop circles are for real and that ghosts could actually exist and that there’s more in this world than we can perceive with our normal senses. So feel free to discount my opinion.

        • CuriousChris

          July 22, 2013 at 11:41 pm

          Cmon Ron. Crop circles? You are aware two old men started the whole crop circle thing? They explained how the flattened the crops to be so even and ‘impossibly unnatural’.

          I explained this carefully to two friends of mine who believed in alien visitations. they accepted what I said and changed their stance to “crops circles were adopted by aliens as a way of communicating”.

          I mean I love them dearly and all but how stupid can you be!

          • RonB

            July 23, 2013 at 12:27 am

            Hey Chris,
            I believe that some old guys made a crop circle, hell, I even made one (a tiny one)!

            ps– I never mentioned aliens in the discussion perhaps it’s some other force, like angels. lol

          • CuriousChris

            July 23, 2013 at 3:31 am

            well I guess in that context (self made) crop circles are real.

            I wonder what message this crop circle is trying to convey?

      • blaze

        July 22, 2013 at 11:36 pm

        I’m not a true believer. I suspect Rossi is a fraud (less so for Defkalion). It’s all calculated judgement call for me.

        Mary Yugo, however, seems a tad obsessed. I am truly concerned about her mental health if Defkalion or Rossi prove to be the real thing.

        • CuriousChris

          July 22, 2013 at 11:46 pm

          IMHO Al (MY) is not obsessed with Rossi or DGT. If he was he’d be Gary Wright. No I am guessing Al has trouble with the gullibility of the average person. Sometimes it is unbelievable.

          His condemnation of Rossi is just to try and get people to realise they are being crop circle stupid.

        • JNewman

          July 23, 2013 at 12:13 am

          MY is definitely obsessed with trying to reason with people who have taken completely unreasonable positions. It is a hopeless cause but presumably he finds some entertainment value in it.

        • Deleo77

          July 23, 2013 at 12:41 am

          As Shane pointed out above – if Rossi is a fraud then why did DGT lie about stealing from a fraud? It’s a good question.

          They know Rossi has nothing, but then they stake their own scam on it? Why lie about it knowing that if he goes down, so do you? That seems stupid and unnecessary for DGT. But so does doing a demo in front of an LENR conference tomorrow knowing that you have to fake your way through it. Maybe their investors are demanding it or something. DGT is almost a stranger story than Rossi, because their foundation sits on top of Rossi. They are also trying to be a part of the LENR community, in which case if they are frauds, will probably mean they will get smoked out sooner than Rossi – who keeps his distance from the LENR research community.

          • JNewman

            July 23, 2013 at 12:49 am

            DGT is fascinating. If they are a total fraud, they are making no sense. If they are legitimate, they are making no sense. At least they are consistent.

          • Al Potenza

            July 23, 2013 at 1:40 am


            My suspicion about what happened to Defkalion (but I have no real evidence for it) is that they first made a deal with Rossi. They would pay him a lot of money and he would do a convincing test for them. I think Rossi backed out of the test when he realized that Defkalion were not easily fooled.

            Defkalion mistakenly thought Rossi had the real goods but that he had ripped them off and wanted the whole market for himself. They thought they could discover whatever he had so they started making stuff up. That was their first web site and their first forum. That was all the claims of 10 kilowatt reactors being tested by the dozens, given to the Greek government. It was the factories they said they were building. All fake. All fiction. All wishful thinking.

            Since then, I suspect, they have tried to make what they said they could. I think they’ve failed but they may have deluded themselves with measurement errors that they have some small power gain and maybe a bit of radiation and transmutation– I don’t know.

            They deleted their old site and forum, you can’t get proper answers to simple questions, and they won’t produce a single customer or a single tester from their series of seven famous companies that they claimed had tested Hyperions last April. I suspect that there were no tests or that if there were, the companies were frauds or were fooled.

            That’s where we are now. I suppose something else will happen tomorrow. That should be fun.

          • Ransompw

            July 23, 2013 at 2:50 am

            Al, Maryyugo:

            I don’t have much occasion at this time to post on the blogs, but I try to read some posts if I can.

            I am happy you realize you have NO evidence for your fanciful delusions. Your suspicion is so nonsensical it reeks of a conspiracy theorist which pretty much sums you up in my book. Simply a delusion with everyone a fraud and you are Don Quixote jousting windmills. Sadly, you are simply the opposite end of the deluded fools you make fun of, only sadly you are equally deluded.

            By the way, I didn’t realize you were Al, but it certainly makes sense. Hard to believe there are too many of your kind running around. Maybe you are Newman also.

          • JNewman

            July 23, 2013 at 1:13 pm

            Brilliant, Ransom. The ability to recognize egregious charlatans is obviously so rare that I must be the same person as Mary/Al. After all, thinking that this charade is anything other than a scientific revolution is the misguided delusion shared by only a handful of people among the vast numbers of people who have things straight. You, sir, are an amazing piece of work.

        • Al Potenza

          July 23, 2013 at 1:35 am

          “Mary Yugo, however, seems a tad obsessed. I am truly concerned about her mental health if Defkalion or Rossi prove to be the real thing.”

          No worries, Blaze.

          I am amused and entertained by deception. I love busting scams. I helped to bust the Sniffex scam (look it up) and actually provided the FBI with video of a Sniffex test done by Paul Johnson, then company president. I helped to get done. This was for their prosecution of Lindberg, Mihaylov, Markov, and Johnson (I did not testify because it was settled with a plea deal).

          I had fun with the Steorn scam, the Mylow scam, the Dennis Lee and Jeff Otto scam and I made the last two a $100,000 challenge in which I offered them $100K cash on the spot if they could provide a vehicle which did what they said it did (a full size sedan running on HHO gas and gasoline which got 100 mpg with no external source of electricity). Of course, they never replied to the challenge which was made through Sterling Allan before he banned me from his blog. Dennis Lee was since arrested and jailed for fraud.

          If Rossi or Defkalion were real, I’d be absolutely delighted. Very surprised but very happy. I wish cold fusion were real. I wish someone had high power from it. I am afraid nobody does. Rossi and Defkalion act like the previous scams I followed.

          I have to add that if Dekalion and Rossi were real, it would be very strange that they promote their invention by hiding, lying, and doing bad tests!

          I also like stage magic, especially when I can’t tell how the magician is doing it. Some illusions turn out to be incredibly elaborate and difficult to perform when they are revealed. I suspect Rossi is just good magician. Defkalion probably not so good. So far anyway.

          • Roger Barker

            July 23, 2013 at 2:49 am

            ROFLMAO! TOTAL BS! You are a bigger fraud than Rossi and DGT put together. No one believes you’re anything but keyboard warrior.

          • dsm

            July 23, 2013 at 3:07 am

            LOL 🙂

            (PS add the words ‘long retired & bored keybo…..’ to that)

          • blaze

            July 23, 2013 at 3:54 am

            You know, plenty of businesses have promised vaporware. Microsoft did it constantly and look how big it is today. Unfortunately, it didn’t work out for Defkalion when they probably discovered they couldn’t control all that heat they were generating.

            As for how they’re going about it, it’s possible they have patents in the works that are about to become public, which is why they’re doing all these public demos.

            Anyways, I think this drama will be done by EOY. They MUST have filed patents at least a year ago, and those patents must be revealing themselves by now. They will certainly tell the tail.

          • dsm

            July 23, 2013 at 4:00 am


            That is a pretty good assumption. Makes sense to me 🙂


            PS – re the early war of words. DGT actually tried to keep out of it but Stremmenos did a major vomit when he was told of the split between Rossi and DGT and he publicly accused them of lying about payment to Rossi. At the time I accepted Stremmenos’s version but history has shown they had good reason to withhold payment 1) for the 1MW unit that they were to purchase (it didn’t work) and 2) for the eCat cores Rossi was supposed to provide a design for.
            Rossi started the war.

            But they shut up when they saw that was going downhill fast.

          • Jordi Heguilor

            July 23, 2013 at 4:15 am

            Roger and DSM, what if you are 100% right about what you say about Al/Mary?

            We know for sure two other things about him/her: s/he’s is not selling worthless distributorships or attracting investors and, unlike DFK and Rossi, s/he’s not giving LENR a bad reputation. And his questions are valid ones, he knows his shit.

            So to compare him/her to them is silly.

        • Roger Barker

          July 23, 2013 at 2:46 am

          1) I am 100% certain Rossi is a con
          2) I am 50/50 on LENR being real
          3) I do not have enough information to decide on DGT

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            July 23, 2013 at 7:16 am

            Ha, ha ha, and DGT stole Rossi’s reactor!!

          • dsm

            July 24, 2013 at 12:45 am

            Yes Bernie, and if you say it enough times while holding your fingers in your ears and closing your eyes what you say will become the absolute irrefutable god defended truth.

            That tactic worked well in child care center – maybe it will work here too !.


    • Al Potenza

      July 23, 2013 at 1:44 am

      “Question for Mary Yugo: are you going to have a nervous breakdown if Defkalion and Rossi prove out?”

      Yes Blaze. I have already reserved a room in the finest nut house in Malibou. Expensive but worth it. I will have my own private padded cell without windows. And lots of very fine psychotropic drugs. I promise.

  39. blaze

    July 23, 2013 at 3:43 am

    Yes, 7 or so defkalion employees have all decided to join in on this massive conspiracy with absolutely no fear of one of them quitting and blowing the whistle. Even though these employees are in two offices distributed globally.

    And definitely, a COP of 5x is probably just measurement error. So easy to make that particular mistake.

    I have to say, from a Bayesian point of view, it’s time to re-adjust my probabilities given the new evidence.

    I’ll say about a 45% chance that Defkalion is a fraud, and now only a 60% chance that Rossi is a Fraud (depending on how you define Fraud)

    If all goes exceedingly well tomorrow, you can probably subtract about 10%.

    • R Hopeful

      July 23, 2013 at 4:03 am

      Tomorrow’s test will go well because they have the experimental setup under control. We will see how convincing it is.
      Something which would be good to find out tomorrow: what prevents them from switching off the heaters to drive the COP through the roof? Rossi needs the heater to trigger, but I thought DFK uses high voltage electrodes. I thought the heater is only needed to bring up the device to working temperature, so it is superfluous once the reaction starts.

    • CuriousChris

      July 23, 2013 at 10:12 am

      “Yes, 7 or so defkalion employees have all decided to join in on this massive conspiracy with absolutely no fear of one of them quitting and blowing the whistle.”

      It was 48 once. What happened to the rest?

      As they all have most probably partaken in fraud. they are either happy with it or too afraid to say. Or as I have said earlier, its easy to keep the secret sauce hidden so the ’employees’ think they are a part of a bigger picture. You need the spectre of respectability if you want to drag in the big dollars.

      Or perhaps Defkallion are even fooled by their own inability to measure properly. I have seen many many overunity ‘breakthroughs’ claimed which were simply the result of persistent measurement errors.

      And talking about measurement errors with respect to your Bayesian probability statistics. You may have heard the saying?

      “Rubbish in = Rubbish out”

      • Jami

        July 23, 2013 at 4:52 pm

        I am relieved to hear that any organization consisting of more than one person and spreading across more than one country can probably be trusted not to mean any harm. I’ve been suspecting for a long time that organized crime was just a myth invented by the authorities to justify new police cars, cool swat gear and more investigators than any paradise could possibly need.

  40. JKW

    July 23, 2013 at 3:55 am

    Are we there yet? No? It’s two year’s already, for crying out loud, and all we get is a freaking circus video!

  41. ts

    July 23, 2013 at 4:31 am

    So, DGT is where the ecat people were two years ago: Giving successful , carefully controlled demos and making grand claims. So, where are the ecat people now? Still in R&D with the only independent test of their device having failed. And, of course, no demos since this failure.

    I expect DGT to repeat the same pattern. Successful, carefully controlled demos. No successful independent tests by measurement experts. And, of course, investors lured in by the demos. This approach has ben successful for decades in luring in investors for free energy/lenr/cold fusion and will probably continue to be.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      July 23, 2013 at 7:21 am

      TS….Have you read the third party report on Rossi E-Cat?

      • ts

        July 23, 2013 at 2:03 pm

        That was not a 3rd party report. And, there were no measurement experts who participated as far as I could tell.

  42. Jordi Heguilor

    July 23, 2013 at 5:00 am

    Ok, a little entertainment while we wait for the demo. As we all know, after every announcement by DFK, Rossi has upped the ante. The question is, after a successful (?) demo by DFK, how is Rossi going to top his robotic factory producing Ecats by the thousands?

    • dsm

      July 23, 2013 at 10:05 am

      So who T.F. are DFK ?
      I think most of us know our alphabet enough to recognise DGT.
      Are you converting from Cryllic or perhaps Greek ?

      • Jordi Heguilor

        July 23, 2013 at 4:36 pm

        DFK = Defkalion

  43. Dale G. Basgall

    July 23, 2013 at 3:37 pm

    Really quiet here today, I thought the big presentation at ICCF 18 would net some big chatter.

    Hmmm, it seems since DGT and Rossi have been offering for sale their products to heat water that someone should actually come up with something to observe as a working product.

    Is this another no show of a working product for either one?

    • admin

      July 23, 2013 at 3:44 pm

      It is happening now. Nothing to say until it is over.


    • Deleo77

      July 23, 2013 at 5:26 pm

      Kind of a straightforward and boring demo. Not exactly what I would call a circus or magic show. Watching it, it’s just kind of mundane in a way. I think the questions and answers from ICCF could be more interesting than the actual demo. I don’t see anything here that makes me feel like a major scam is going on. Mats Lewan is there trying to get a read on everything, and he has always come across as a fair player in all of this. It will be interesting to get his take on it after the demo is over.

      Maybe this will be the start of DGT opening up more. If their reaction is real, there are about a 1,000 scientists from the top universities in the world who would love to help them out. They should open up more and take that help.

      • R Hopeful

        July 23, 2013 at 6:14 pm

        Totally agree with that it is a straightforward demonstration. The laboratory is an adequate setup for the purposes of testing their device, and they are just trying to make it accessible for the witness.
        It is much simpler that I thought: just Variacs controlling the system instead of fancy control boxes. Relatively easy to trace.
        Of course, it is possible to hide some power flow -the witness acknowledges as much. But it would be a very elaborate trick. And what is the point? They are basically calling for other scientists: “Hey, come over and prove us wrong”
        I wish they could disconnect the heaters at some point.

    • RonB

      July 23, 2013 at 5:49 pm

      Dale, It looks very promising. They’ve got a skeptic there going through the wires and all. They even told the skeptic that he can tear the whole thing apart at the end of the test and inspect everything. He could even cut the cables to inspect them. That’s pretty brave if they had something fake inside.

      • Thicket

        July 23, 2013 at 7:41 pm

        Yes, and the skeptic said he wasn’t qualified to check the wiring.

        • Thicket

          July 23, 2013 at 8:48 pm

          Correction. Lewan isn’t a skeptic. He was a full-blown believer in the past. He once believed in Rossi. I’m not sure that he does anymore.

          I haven’t seen any observers other than Lewan, but I may have missed them.

      • Deleo77

        July 23, 2013 at 8:06 pm

        I keep checking back in on the stream throughout the day. This may be the most transparent LENR demo by anyone yet. Lewan actually had a different reading than what was up on the screen and the DGT guys were talking with Lewan about the difference and what could be accounting for it. I believe Lewan has a master’s in electrical engineering and he is well aware of the potential for scams. Having him right there doing the readings is pretty big deal imo.

        I do think today could end up being a really interesting one for LENR. Will some members of the media start to pick up on what is happening here? I think they might take a hard look at this.

        • Thicket

          July 23, 2013 at 8:40 pm


          Mats Lewan is the observer who said he wasn’t qualified to check the wiring. Mats Lewan is a technical journalist. He doesn’t have a degree in Electrical Engineering. He has a Masters in Engineering Physics.

          Lewan was burned by Rossi. I think he’s going to be more non-committal this time.

          I only watch the demonstration for short periods of time. Has anyone seen the other two observers that are supposed to be there?

  44. Jami

    July 23, 2013 at 4:43 pm

    DGT have got a marginally better view from their garage than Rossi – all be it through barred windows. Turned the sound off. I mean it is really exciting and full of crucial information and all – but the sound of splashing water made me run to the bathroom every other minute.

    • RonB

      July 23, 2013 at 5:10 pm

      lol Jami.. just cross your legs!

  45. Al Potenza

    July 23, 2013 at 8:58 pm

    Just a preliminary impression:

    The output power measurement is goofy. Maybe they will clear it up but it seems they are using a T-out which requires steam (140C) but they are calculating the power from the specific heat of water! The output phase is not water.

    There was no need to change phase. It’s the same trickery Rossi used but in a different form. It’s easy to use silicone oil instead of water. Defkalion claimed to have done this TWO YEARS AGO. Why all of sudden return to water? And they could (and SHOULD) increase the water flow rate so the water stays below 100C in temperature.


    I have my own theory. What’s yours?

    • Deleo77

      July 23, 2013 at 9:04 pm

      Yeah, it looks like several posters on Vortex picked up on this as well. This is something they need to address. I am surprised at how many answers they passed off to Professor Kim’s presentation at ICCF in a couple of days. It almost sounds like he is carrying the DGT flag now.

    • daniel maris

      July 23, 2013 at 9:07 pm

      My theory is you are desperately scrambling around looking for any possible quibble going.

      What’s yours?

      If you’ve got a comment,why not give us the benefit of it.

      Are you saying the scientists involved are lying, incompetent or deluded?

      • Jami

        July 23, 2013 at 9:13 pm

        They certainly would be (if they were scientists).

      • Tony

        July 23, 2013 at 9:32 pm


        No. He’s saying that for the past two years there is an extraordinarily easy test to do to prove the device. Why do they never do this simple thing? Why is it always made more complicated?

        Just heat the freaking water and keep it at some number. Stick a thermocouple in the reservoir and measure the temp. Another TC in the incoming water stream and flow meters on both input and output.

        Then, right at the beginning, chop the line cord to make sure there is no sneaky wire in there. Bring a roll of black tape and tape it all back up when you’re done. Use in-line metering on EVERY wire into and out of the thing measuring current and voltage and the scope to rule out some sort of frequency shenanigans. Plot all of the data along the same time scale and the truth will be as apparent as a boner in church.

        But they never do it.


        • daniel maris

          July 23, 2013 at 10:03 pm

          Tony 2 – So you’re saying they are engaged in a fraud?

          • Tony2

            July 23, 2013 at 10:56 pm


            Obviously I have no proof of fraud. But my odds are 99999999:1 that they are just given the propensity for the shoddy testing; the ridiculous claims; the (still) lack of any real independent testing by anybody other than Italians or Swedes (and no, I’m Italo- or Swedo-phobic); and just the way these guys carry themselves (Rossi and DGT).


    • Blanco69

      July 23, 2013 at 10:25 pm

      My guess is that they dont do that because it would cool the reactor to the point when the reaction is not sustained.

  46. Jami

    July 23, 2013 at 9:12 pm

    Ohh – so Mats short-circuited the building when he was trying to connect an oscilloscope. What a rotten piece of luck…

    Gotta love those guys being busy doing nothing much in the white coats and horn-rimmed glasses. Put a slide-rule in their breast pocket and they’re almost perfect. Also funny – the idea that they used mono-istotopic Ni and then found out (triggered by a “cost calculation”, apparently) that the reactor also runs on natural distribution isotopes. That is like you build a motor and let it run on molten gold until your boss strolls in one morning and says “Hey, what about cost?” – and you try water and it works just as well. They’re lucky he asked, aren’t they?

    • daniel maris

      July 23, 2013 at 10:06 pm

      You aren’t really serious with that comment are you? How much is the difference in cost between each charge (a few grams as I understand)?

      • Jami

        July 23, 2013 at 10:46 pm

        Hang on. THEY talked about cost. In reality it doesn’t matter, of corse, and the thing would run just as well on jelly beans. If you really want to know – one of the “few grams” of what could be called monoisotopic Ni would cost somewhere between 5 and 50 thousand bucks – depending on purity and isotope.

  47. Roger Barker

    July 23, 2013 at 9:45 pm

    After this latest DGT “demo” I am convinced this is just one big psych experiment. The systems under test are not those supposedly producing excess heat but the people who are following this drama.

  48. Jordi Heguilor

    July 23, 2013 at 10:03 pm

    I missed the last part of it. What was the explanation for the missing witnesses?

  49. JNewman

    July 23, 2013 at 10:27 pm

    Well, get ready for weeks of acrimonious debate about the DGT demo. Here’s what the upshot will be: from the believer camp it will be hailed as a triumph and will be the basis of endless attacks on the evil skeptics who aren’t convinced by it. From the skeptic camp it will be cited as another example of a convoluted, arcane and questionable measurement technique that is vulnerable to a plethora of innacuracies and potential abuse. Daniel will dare anyone to use the word “fraud” and Alainco will blither about social dynamics. Mary will condemn the whole thing.

    The bottom line is that I stick with my prediction from several days ago: this will have no effect on anything except to juice up the activity on a bunch of obscure websites.

    • dsm

      July 23, 2013 at 10:29 pm

      Simple – lets us list the short comings – agree on them & ask that they be addressed.
      That ‘demo’ was not the only one they will ever do !.
      Easy eh ?

      • JNewman

        July 24, 2013 at 1:10 am

        Real simple. Let some qualified independent parties design an experiment using their own equipment and own procedures and have DGT let them do the measurements. Until then, it’s just a show.

        • dsm

          July 24, 2013 at 4:36 am

          Maybe but at least you get to be able to ask them questions and even influence their testing.
          The extended scientific testing will come but I doubt it will be the way you want it & when you want it.
          DGT are not in business to please JNewman (a known high energy scientist).


        • Mannstein

          September 4, 2013 at 4:30 am

          Who says one can trust the independent testers’ measurement instruments. This is all one big conspiracy isn’t it.

    • daniel maris

      July 24, 2013 at 1:05 am

      I’m not “daring” anyone to say fraud I am just interested to see what explanation they have if it’s not, in their view, genuine…because there is a limited range of choices. If it is fraud, then I believe it is a rather unusual one.

  50. R Hopeful

    July 24, 2013 at 4:16 am

    For those of you that have never seen an engineering prototype in your life: the setup at Defkalion was neat and professional. The device itself is a nice hunk of machined steel, designed to be robust and easy to instrument. All the equipment around is well organized.
    It is also difficult to reproduce at another location, because of the all the ancillary equipment required -don’t look only at the small box on top.
    They use computer readouts, as in any other modern test. There is no way to verify that the computer program has not been tampered with. I sure hope they do another test soon with more outsider intervention.