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Professor Bo Höistad Answers Critics

July 8, 2013

Following the negative critique given to the Levi HotCat paper, the Italian magazine, IB Times, conducted an interview with Bo Höistad, one of the seven members of the test team and signatory to the paper. This is an appropriate choice because Ericsson and Pomp are Nuclear physicists at Uppsala. As a peer at the same establishment, Höistad is understandably miffed at the criticism and takes a pot-shot at them in return for their unprofessional attack. I have some sympathy for this. While they made some valid points it was obvious that their own paper was full of non-scientific observations reflecting their determination to find fault.

There is little new information but it is interesting to see Höistad come out fighting and standing by their findings. He does confirm that one of Rossi’s technicians started the eCat but otherwise he and Rossi left them to it. One other interesting snippet is that it is true that they did not get to see Rossi’s surgery to remove the’fuel’ but in his opinion this did not effect their conclusions because the results were in excess of ‘any’ known chemical fuel.

The article is here and the following is a Google translation:

There is no peace for Andrea Rossi and his E-Cat. The publication of the now famous independent third-party testing on the E-Cat high temperature seemed to represent a turning point in the story starring the Italian engineer and his creature, which promises to revolutionize the world of energy.

But even the new test came in the middle of strong controversy, carried out by an article made ​​by Professors Goran Ericsson and Stephan Pomp, nuclear physicists at the University of Uppsala, which is highly critical of the test and puts openly questioned the results.

The criticism of Ericsson and Pomp – Published on arxiv.org , the platform of Cornell University on which they were made public also test the E-Cat, in their report Ericsson Pomp and question the real independence of the testers noting that some of them had already participated in previous demonstrations organized by engineer Rossi. Is also criticized their own qualifications to perform these tests because they do not have adequate preparation for the test to “black box.”

Ericsson Pomp and wonder how testers can be assured that inside the reactor there is nickel and hydrogen if they have not been able to open.

Furthermore, the same reference to “trade secrets” about the “fuel” the reactor brings down a veil of shadow over into the real operation of the reactor itself overshadowing the possibility that it could be used a second source of energy.

This accusation stems from the fact that Ericsson Pomp and do not share the choice to perform the tests in the laboratories Leonardo Corporation made ​​available by engineer Rossi. The two scientists also point out that in both tests the reactors were put into operation by authorized personnel by engineer Rossi and not by testers themselves.

Regarding the measurements, according to Ericsson and Pomp, the December test must be invalidated because no data have been reported on emissivity. For the test in March, the two critics claim to have been able, through the COSMOL (a simulation tool used in physics) to replicate the same results without the involvement of any abnormal heat. The two critics consider that there is no data were provided on the reactor outlet (“dummy”).

Test indipendente
Independent test

The conclusions of the report of Ericsson and Pomp were harsh: accuse their colleagues have done prevail their hopes on the scientific rigor and, based on all the observations reported prior, express the conviction that no truly independent test was performed on the E -Cat. Ericcson Pomp and therefore conclude that neither the test published on Arxiv or elsewhere has never been proven to be a “abnormal production of energy.”

The answer of Professor Bo Höistad – This is clearly a very heavy report in which, not only doubt is cast on the operation of the E-Cat, but also the reliability of the same scientists who have carried out two tests in December 2012 and March 2013 so as to explicitly accuse them of having followed a typical method of “pseudo-science”, that is to be skipped to extraordinary conclusions without first having sought explanations in traditional physics.

We therefore decided to contact Professor Bo Höistad, a nuclear physicist and professor at the University of Uppsala and one of the authors of the famous independent testing, to allow it to replicate and to explain its position on the target of criticism by Ericsson and Pomp.

IBTimes: Dear Professor Höistad, Ericsson Pomp and bring into question the independence of the tester, especially Professor Levi and Petterson. How do you respond to this charge?

Bo Höistad: First, let me point out that the article of Pomp and Ericsson is written with a provision very negative towards Rossi and tried to find all the possible arguments to support their idea that Rossi there is cheating. As a result they are very critical about our results tentatively positive. Their paper, instead of directly discuss our findings in a scientific manner, focuses on a number circumstantial issues that have no relevance to the primary outcome ie if our results are correct within the errors estimated. For most of us give different statements that are false. Also there are many deliberate omissions, unwarranted opinions and false claims. Finally, their article is written in a polemical style tended to insult and ridicule rather than bring clarity to a complex scientific controversy.

On the question of independence, is an obvious contradiction that the result of our measurements may be rejected only because one of our authors (Levi) and Rossi know. Our result should be judged on scientific grounds and not on the basis of insignificant relationships.

IBTimes: In the report of Ericsson Pomp and it is also said that neither she nor the other authors of the study have the appropriate skills to carry out a test “black-box”. Is that so?

Bo Höistad: How researchers in experimental physics, chemistry and radiology with a long experience in advanced techniques of high precision our expertise is evident. It should be noted that both Ericsson Pomp that are nuclear physicists, while our group includes a much broader field of science.

IBTimes: We come to criticism “technical”, the fact that the tests were carried out in the laboratories of Leonardo Corporation puts into question in any way the results published by you and your team?

Bo Höistad: We used our experimental tools. Rossi has only provided his E-Cat reactor with its electrical box. It also allowed us to use his laboratory we have carefully inspected before testing. Rossi was not involved in the test in any way. One of his technicians helped us to operate the E-Cat, but then did not take part in any way to the measurements.

IBTimes: The report some questions that are addressed in the study. As you know that inside the reactor is nickel and hydrogen because you could not open it? Because the reactor was put into operation by technicians assigned by Rossi?

Bo Höistad: We were there when Rossi emptied the reactor fuel, although we have not seen him doing it. We have also implemented a fuel analysis after the operation of the reactor. But strictly speaking we can not be 100% sure that the fuel that we have analyzed is the same that was present in the reactor. However, this has no relevance to the main result of the measurement that has produced a large excess heat compared to the combustion chemistry of ANY substance (see story)

IBTimes: What can you tell us about the “fuel” and “trade secrets” that surround him? Is it really possible – as suggested in the study by Ericsson and Pomp – which has been used a second source of energy?

Bo Höistad: If you are referring to some form of hidden energy to cheat, we have made ​​every effort to unmask an agreement of this kind.

At this point of our investigation does not make sense to make assumptions about the nature of the excess heat produced by the reactor fuel. In particular, any hypothesis on the prevalence of a nuclear reaction is understandable only if a nuclear transition can be localized, and so far has not been so.

Note that we communicated in the “Indication of anomalous heat energy production in a reactor device containing hydrogen loaded nickel powder” (the title of the third-party testing, ed), and our results should certainly be controlled by more comprehensive studies. Our current results are interesting enough to continue these studies. Presumably there is still a long way to go before we can confirm or deny the operation of the E-Cat reactor (I made this observation to the Swedish newspaper Ny Tekink, New Technology, and Ericsson and Pomp know).

IBTimes: How do you respond to criticism on the measurements for both the December test for the March?

Bo Höistad: Their conjectures about the difference in the excess heat produced between the test in December and March are incorrect. Just look at our article.

IBTimes: Finally Ericsson Pomp and argue that in tests made ​​by you will encounter a typical attitude of pseudo-science, which is extraordinary steps quickly to conclusions rather than trying to find explanations in the physical standard. It is a very heavy criticism: How do you respond?

Bo Höistad: It is very unfortunate that Ericsson Pomp and resort to bad comments and mischievous. Accusing colleagues with a long and distinguished series of hundreds of scientific articles published in the most important international journals in physics be hired to pseudo-science is simply an insult severe and beyond any reasonable level of a decent academic behavior. Frankly speaking I am ashamed of having colleagues at the University of Uppsala that you refrain from personal attacks of such a low level.

Here the abstract and full text of the study of Ericsson and Pomp

Here the abstract and full text of the independent third-party testing on the E-Cat

[With thanks to Delio77]

 

ETA – OT for this post but worth highlighting that Cold Fusion Now points out that the US Navy (Pamela Boss et al) has been awarded a patent involving transmutation through LENR. I reserve comment until I’ve studied it except to say that it is an interesting development given that their lab was closed down. Of course, a patent guarantees nothing – even so; US Navy Granted Cold Fusion Patent makes for a good tabloid headline.

After scanning the patent, I see it is for generating particles as reported in reference to their earlier CR-39 results. As with all things LENR, these were attacked at the time (what’s new?). With an application date of 2007, it makes no direct claim for CF or LENR but it is there in f9rm and explicitly references many cold fusion papers and claims].

Posted by on July 8, 2013. Filed under Drama,Tests & Demos,Uncategorized. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

456 Responses to Professor Bo Höistad Answers Critics

  1. MaxS Reply

    July 11, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    The sudden death of frequent posters in fairy tale land (ECW) makes me wonder what happened.
    I noticed that some of the most vocal supporters, maybe shills, have stopped posting in dreamland (georgehants, Peter_Roe). At the same time new frequent posters have appeared (Roger B. et al).
    Strangely, it occurred about the time when this article
    http://www.everyday-feng-shui.de/feng-shui-news/cern-lobbyisten-streuen-gezielt-desinformationen-ueber-e-cat-kalte-fusion/
    claimed a connection of CERN with a negative campaign, after tracking some IP addresses.
    Could it be some guys are concerned that their real identity could be revealed? Maybe it would be then evident who the shills are, perhaps close allies of Rossi himself?
    Of course, it could be only a coincidence, or the guys are sick, lost interest or may have died. Or they got convinced that their fight was in vain. Whatever.

    • Jami Reply

      July 11, 2013 at 4:01 pm

      I think it is more about Frank Acland’s auto-moderation which forces some users to frequently switch nicknames. Even hard-core believers like Peter Roe (who is now posting as “fourtyniner”, afaik).

    • Shane D. Reply

      July 11, 2013 at 4:53 pm

      If CERN is caught planting skeptics on forums to discredit LENR, then why would believers disappear? I’m not seeing your point.

      If you ask me, some believers started going silent when Rossi kept promising the third party test results, but kept pushing it back. When it was finally released he got some believers back on board.

      The other thing was Rossis inconsistencies regarding the shipment of the 1 MW plant and his promise to allow select persons to see two months afterwards. That has yet to happen. If it does then he will get some believers back on his side.

      • MaxS Reply

        July 12, 2013 at 9:37 am

        the point is that some people may have been alerted how easily identities can be tracked.

    • Neil Farbstein Reply

      January 26, 2014 at 6:43 pm

      I didn’t realize that the testers were not allowed to test the composition of the nickel catalyst particles or hydrogen. The “black box” seemed to have produced much more energy than inputted into it but I think Rossi has been too secretive. Why doesnt he apply for patents to protect his secret sauce and show the rest of the world what that catalyst is made of.

  2. Jordi Heguilor Reply

    July 11, 2013 at 5:23 pm

    Shane wrote:

    “If you ask me, some believers started going silent when Rossi kept promising the third party test results, but kept pushing it back. When it was finally released he got some believers back on board.”

    There is a simple and impartial gauge of how much “Rossi consciousness” there is out there. Go to Google News, search for “Rossi Ecat”, and see how many pages of results you get.

    For a long time it was stable at 5, then during the Paper/Anti-paper controversy went up to 7 or 8, now it’s down to 2.

    It’s only in inbred Forums like ecw that people believe that the Ecat is making a big splash in public consciousness.

    • Shane D. Reply

      July 11, 2013 at 7:15 pm

      I guess it is like the boy who cried wolf fable. You keep telling everyone you have this great machine that produces overunity, promise multiple times over a 2 1/2 year period that soon it will be viewable by the public, yet never do as promised… then people lose interest and walk away. For good reason.

      If Rossi, or DGT, were to actually show a product in action with a smiling, happy customer bragging of it’s performance… then interest would perk up again real quick.

      Will we ever see that? That is the issue?

      • Luigi Nonsenzo and his X-Ray Chick Reply

        July 11, 2013 at 7:39 pm

        It’s the same mistake over and over again. As I’ve said (and you’ve contested), a researcher should stay silent until at least two independent replications have succeeded.

        Failure to do this has consequences beyond simple failure, as we’ve seen many times.

      • MaxS Reply

        July 12, 2013 at 9:48 am

        Another question is why is the public by and large ignoring the 7 professors and their paper?
        Is only the smiling, happy customer missing? Or could it be that mainstream media as well as academics do not believe it?

  3. Luigi Nonsenzo and his X-Ray Chick Reply

    July 11, 2013 at 5:53 pm

    Rossi has published his apartment number and street address. It would be very easy to check where he goes every day.

    • MaxS Reply

      July 12, 2013 at 9:50 am

      Probably Gary Wright has already hired a PI to check it out……

  4. Harry Perini Reply

    July 11, 2013 at 8:12 pm

    Good News !!

    This seems to be an important update from Andrea Rossi posted on the JONP:

    AND HERE IS AN UPDATE OF TODAY, JULY 8TH:
    The past three days have been holidays for most, but for us have been a tremendous period of work during which we made a historic page for what concerns our tech: for the first time, an E-Cat module, entirely produced by our USA Partner in the new factory ( a magnificence), charged with the charge made by the Partner’s CEO, using the materials we teached to buy, prepare,manipulate, treat, to make the charges, assembled , insulated, has started its operation, and the results are the same of the E-Cats built by us. This event means that for the first time an E-Cat not built by me, not controlled by me and not charged by me, not tested in my factory, but manufactured from third parties upon our instructions and know how has worked properly. This is the first unit of the plant that will give to the factory of our USA Partner all its necessary thermal energy, and is also the school ship for the employees. It is very important that it has been completely made by the Customer, not by me: it is the first of millions, but the first is always special. We celebrated with Coca Cola ( alcohol is forbidden in that factory). All the former plants, even if built in the USA, had been supplied with reactors cores made by me, so this is a very important step.

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/07/rossi-update-e-cat-built-by-partner-works-pefectly/

    • JNewman Reply

      July 11, 2013 at 8:55 pm

      Harry must get his Internet over a 300 baud modem. He always reports these pieces of wonderful news about three days after they have been thoroughly shredded here.

      • R Hopeful Reply

        July 11, 2013 at 9:11 pm

        Or it is just that some people have better things to do and don’t need to check the blogs every day

        • JNewman Reply

          July 11, 2013 at 9:42 pm

          That must be it. Harry doesn’t have time to read blogs every day because he is too busy looking out the window for the UPS man to deliver his home ecat.

          • RonB

            July 12, 2013 at 3:08 am

            lol Sheesh you can be cruel! :p

    • Luigi Nonsenzo and his X-Ray Chick Reply

      July 11, 2013 at 9:55 pm

      All your plant, your plant, are belong to us

  5. Deleo77 Reply

    July 12, 2013 at 3:32 am

    I know Rossi has been giving less bullish answers in the last week or two, but the one below today again stays on the non-committal path. It just sounds like an R&D project that he no longer controls that may or may not go anywhere. He may be giving this same answer two years from now.

    He should present what he has to Univeristy researchers and at conferences. I think he has to realize his secrecy will end up being his own worst enemy. If he has something he should open up the factory floor in the U.S. and show it to people. The Segway was secret, but Dean Kamen showed it to Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos and others while it was in development.

    Andrea Rossi
    July 11th, 2013 at 9:18 PM
    Dear Wladimir Guglinski:
    If you refer to our technology, it is shared now and does not anymore depend only on me. The E-Cat technology is undergoing rigorous testing and the results- positive, negative, or inconclusive- will provide further guidance about its potential.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Jami Reply

      July 12, 2013 at 10:04 am

      “he has to realize his secrecy will end up being his own worst enemy”

      If he hasn’t got anything, then continued secrecy and teasing is his best friend – the only way to drag out his fall – possibly forever. In fact “probably” forever. I bet Rossi is scanning his own blog and e-catnews every day, sniffing the mood, and is totally amazed how easy this is, how he’s getting away with the most ridiculous lies and contradictions and how his followers, rather than nailing him, continue to cheer him on. Rossi in wonderland. We don’t know whether his investors or licensees are equally easy to handle. One would think that, having money on the line, they would demand results sooner or later – but then: these people were stupid enough to give him their money in the first place, so they’re probably even more blind than the average ecw fanboy.

      • Jordi Heguilor Reply

        July 12, 2013 at 4:58 pm

        Let’s not forget Elforsk (sp?) The Swedish company that funded the first test, only to see it thrashed, will not be too happy when Rossi refuses a new one.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          July 12, 2013 at 5:06 pm

          Yes. I think involving a real company with real interests was a huge error. I suspect involving Swedish scientists will also backfire on Rossi but it will take time.

    • Shane D. Reply

      July 12, 2013 at 2:57 pm

      All along I have felt Rossi had something, but not nearly what he claimed. I think his technology is LENR+ (KW) -as Petert Gluck differentiates it from LENR (W), but until recently so unreliable as to make it commercially unviable. Nothing new about this as has often been stated by insiders over the last 2 years.

      This unreliability also, and I think most never thought about this, made Rossi hesitant to allow full testing… testing without his being there to nursemaid the start up and maintaining of the reaction. Sort of like a cranky old engine that the owner knows well, through trial and error, how to get started and keep her running, but others don’t have the savvy.

      Instead of admitting this… maybe due to his patent issues, funding, etc., Rossi tried to bluff his way along until he worked the kinks out of his ecat by creating the illusion of a refined product by announcing he shipped a 1MW to the military, followed by other equally false order claims from “regular customers”.

      That seemed to buy him some time, but a culmination of factors; i.e. pressure from his licensees, distrust from potential buyers, and public skepticism made him realize he had reached the end of the road he was on and another road was needed.

      The recent hot-cat test and his recent honest assesments like the one above fit into this picture quite well.

      • Deleo77 Reply

        July 12, 2013 at 3:42 pm

        I think you make a lot of good points there. So the story may have a mix of some truth and some lies. I guess Rossi can just drag this on with the secret manufacturing partner, maybe forever, as Jami said above. I have a small hunch it could be a bit of an end-game for him. I think it is a way to get everyone to forget about the 6 month test, and the Hydrofusion delivery in the Fall. Rossi’s new spin is that the e-cat is 100% American based, and he is just one part of it, and not the sole decision maker. If money was a big part of this for him, I don’t think there is any more of that coming. So it is almost like Rossi is now just trying to maintain his legacy with the very few that are still following. And he may be secretly hoping that some of them start to fade away.

        I do wonder if there is any physical U.S. company that he is working with. It could be a couple of the guys from Ampernego in a small warehouse in NH. So there may be a place Rossi is going to hang out and keep busy, but we all might be severely unimpressed with where he is going. It might be more of a cover for him than anything truly meaningful. It could be a complete fabrication and he is not doing anything right now. But my bet is Rossi is still doing something with the e-cat but it’s nothing to get excited about it.

        As for the independent test, I was 50/50 in the beginning but if I had to put my money on the truth behind what happened, I would have to lean in the direction of hidden power. It was just a bad idea for the testers to not bring an electrical engineer and run through every possibility on the input energy side. They simply made a mistake on that one, and it probably explains what happened.

        • Shane D. Reply

          July 12, 2013 at 4:35 pm

          Good points also. In line with Rossis past history of overstating everything, I have to agree with you that the company he has joined with (if he has in fact done so), will be a disappointment when announced.

          I suspected as much the other day after reading his response where he denied a request to provide a photo of the ecat in operation -as he had promised to provide over 2 months prior (the company was on board), because it might reveal the companies identity.

          I also agree that Rossi is running out of wiggle room and is at the point of putting up or shutting up. The regional distributors seem to have his feet to the fire, as their end around to offer en ecat free to a company in Finland this fall attests.

          That move seems to have caught Rossi off guard and may be most responsible for his latest moves.

          • Deleo77

            July 12, 2013 at 5:18 pm

            Yeah, Hydrofusion seems to be the one licensee that is not forgetting the investment they have made with Rossi. I’m not sure what Rossi expected with the independent test, if it didn’t show positive results, he would have probably been finished. But the fact that it did, didn’t solve too much for him either because of the criticism that followed and the holes in the test that were pointed out. Now the testers have some egg on their face and probably want nothing more than to get back in and correct some of the mistakes of the last test. I imagine they are emailing Rossi now asking when they can come back. It all makes perfect sense why Rossi packed his bags and probably got out of Italy for good.

            And the no photo post by Rossi was just a bad answer. There are ways to take a photo with a digital camera and not have any location tagging on them. He could have done this with no employees in the picture, just so people could see it. It’s a pretty low bar and he still had to dance around to give an answer. Now his answers are becoming non-descript and non-committal.

          • Al Potenza

            July 12, 2013 at 5:57 pm

            “I also agree that Rossi is running out of wiggle room and is at the point of putting up or shutting up. The regional distributors seem to have his feet to the fire, as their end around to offer en ecat free to a company in Finland this fall attests.”
            -
            Not really. Steorn is an example of a 20 million Euro swindle which just goes on and on. Rossi can claim in the fall any number of contingencies which would delay his delivery of a plant to a Swedish client. He can say he delivered it but the customer wants to remain secret. Or doesn’t want anyone to visit “yet”. There are endless ways to delay definitive testing and Rossi is a master of them all.

          • Shane D.

            July 12, 2013 at 10:15 pm

            Al,

            Hydrofusion unilaterally took the step they did, apparently without Rossi being informed until after the fact. That is a pretty bold move and tells us their mindset.

            They don’t appear to be in any mood for Rossi shenanigans. Especially after their failed confirmation test before.

            Interesting aside… that Hydro even stayed loyal after their expert walked out on the acceptance demo. Or at least loyal enough to call Rossis hand with this move. Why didn’t they cut the relationship and sue then?

      • Jami Reply

        July 12, 2013 at 3:48 pm

        I see you’re still not acknowledging the fact that this theory flat out contradicts the tests. Bo Höistad claims Rossi wasn’t around to nurture a stuttering e-cat and “the team” measured a COP of roughly 6 with the no-mouse-hot-cat. So how do you explain a COP of 6 and apparently rock steady performance without the test being manipulated when Rossi doesn’t have what he claims?

      • JNewman Reply

        July 12, 2013 at 4:38 pm

        Ah, the great circle of Rossi. Most believers in LENR who frequent these websites gained that belief because of Rossi. Frankly, no other reported results are particularly convincing or impressive on their own. But even to many (most?) believers, Rossi is mostly hot air. There is little truth in his 2 years of contradictory and implausible claims. However, the idea is that there is underlying truth to him. He really does have an LENR device. Why? Because LENR is for real. And why believe that? Because of Rossi… and the circle continues…

      • R Hopeful Reply

        July 12, 2013 at 5:19 pm

        Yes, that is plausible: he was stringing things along because he could not control the process. If this is the case, the achievement is huge because somebody will figure how to make the technology viable even if Rossi’s enterprise fails.

        The other possibility at this point that he is an outright crook who set up an elaborate deception to trick a group of smart people. I don’t think that is the case, because such a complicated scam is doomed to be revealed quite soon. Even if Rossi’s biography has more red flags that the Chinese Communist Party.

        Anyway, everything will come to a head soon.

        • JNewman Reply

          July 12, 2013 at 5:28 pm

          You do realize that people have been posting what you just said almost verbatum for more than 2 years?

          • Shane D.

            July 12, 2013 at 6:12 pm

            Well, Rossi has been doing tests and showing a few photos for two years also. It is not as if he has done nothing since his first big announcement, with us believers blindly hanging on afterwards.

            He has thrown us enough bones here and there to justify the wait. Now though, it truly seems to be coming to a head. Just the Hydrofusion development will force that.

            Worse case, if this turns out to be the scam you think… it has been a heck of a fun ride anyways. Got me so addicted I’ll just have to find another scam to ride for awhile.

          • JNewman

            July 12, 2013 at 6:24 pm

            Actually, I would argue that Rossi has done nothing for two years. From a believability standpoint, his last public action was his demo in October, 2011. Since then, every single thing has been out of his own mouth or from his trusted colleagues. There has been not a single independent verification of anything he has said or done (and I include the Levi paper in that.) So it is all a matter of faith. And many of you still have it.

          • RonB

            July 12, 2013 at 9:50 pm

            Newman,
            I may not be one of the “many believers” as you and others call them. I still think that there’s a majority of us that are the jury and we’re not believing one way or the other till we have enough information to make an unbiased decision. That’s what science requires, why should it be different in this case?

          • JNewman

            July 12, 2013 at 11:06 pm

            What jury? We’re the peanut gallery. What any of us thinks doesn’t make a damned bit of difference. Whatever Rossi is up to and whoever his antics are for, we are not important. Until something happens in the real world, all this crap in Rossiland is just that: crap. So if the majority you speak of is firmly in neutral, so what?

          • RonB

            July 13, 2013 at 1:17 am

            Newman, Jury in the sense that we are each to judge in our own minds. Not a literal jury.
            You’re right that we are just bystanders and as long as we don’t slander in what we say and don’t purposefully misrepresent what we understand as the truth then we are innocent bystanders.

          • JNewman

            July 13, 2013 at 2:26 am

            Don’t expect too much in the way of fairness and accuracy here. This site and Quax’s are the closest things to real discussions of this topic on the net and both degenerate into personal squabbling every two minutes. Other sites are far worse, however. Until and unless this topic gains respectability, it will remain part of the wild, wooly and, ultimately, silly world of the Internet. Frankly, I don’t expect that to change despite the fond hopes many hold.

          • RonB

            July 13, 2013 at 6:42 am

            Good point Newman,
            I suppose that’s the way of the internet.
            It’s hard to know what’s fact or fiction so it’s really no wonder why so many are still undecided. Sometimes even when we think we have a tenuous hold on the facts it can be eroded in a seconds.

        • Deleo77 Reply

          July 12, 2013 at 5:59 pm

          If there is any possibility that Rossi has stumbled across some strange heat effect that defies the laws of physics he should simply forget about the patent, about starting a company, launching a product, and getting rich. Of course that is easy for me to say sitting far away, but if he has done this, at some point he has to ask for some serious help.

          The second part of the discovery (controlling the reaction) could be every bit as difficult as the first part of the discovery, which he has claimed to have already made. So he should take the first part of the discovery to teams of physicists at NASA, MIT, Cal Tech, and see if they can figure out how to control it. It just seems like a no brainer to me. Rossi would still get plenty of credit for the initial discovery. His name would go into the history books. He would probably eventually win a Nobel Prize. I understand why Intel or IBM may not cooperate with other companies, they have billions of dollars to spend on research, but Rossi is not them.

          • Al Potenza

            July 12, 2013 at 6:11 pm

            @Deleo77

            Consider the example of the late Jonas Salk. He donated the polio vaccine and refused to accept royalties for it.

            Yet, he became world famous, commanded huge lecture fees, and was generously funded by all sorts of charities and organizations when he decided to build the Salk Research Institute which is still one of the best biological research organizations in the world:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salk_Institute_for_Biological_Studies

            Rossi is proceeding exactly like a typical investment scammer. Not like someone with a revolutionary and working idea for cold fusion.

    • Luigi Nonsenzo and his X-Ray Chick Reply

      July 12, 2013 at 8:32 pm

      In a universe of my choosing, Rossi is being interviewed on TV

      “Sr. Rossi – why do you lie all the time?”
      ” **splutter** ”

      “Sr. Rossi – there is not a single shred of evidence that you have delivered a 1 MW reactor to the military. Show us the proof.”
      ” **splutter** ”

      etc etc etc

      • Shane D. Reply

        July 12, 2013 at 10:26 pm

        You have to know that he has been asked about that 1MW delivery to the military a million times already on JONP, but he chose to answer only one question that I recall.

        That was after the 1 year anniversary and he claimed that it had worked 8,766 hours non stop with a COP 6.

        I have brought this up before; if the military had 1 ecat that really worked for a year now, all heck would be breaking loose.

        Maybe someone he answers to could ask him when we will see pictures of a 1MW anywhere other then his brothers garage?

        Tell him his loyal fans are beginning to get restless and we need something to keep the faith and keep the skeptics at bay.

        • Luigi Nonsenzo and his X-Ray Chick Reply

          July 12, 2013 at 11:16 pm

          There truly is no limit to human gullibility in matters of faith. Religious persons, please note.

          • Shane D.

            July 13, 2013 at 4:05 am

            Well, I am a “religious person”, and failed to “note” anything.

            Best we keep this on topic I think?

            Unless of course you want to be preached to? Up to you.

          • CuriousChris

            July 13, 2013 at 6:16 am

            Religion is about faith with no proof. so it fits a Rossi apologist to be religious.

            The interesting thing about religion is not the faith component, but when and where it applies.

            If I said I was going to give you $1000. You just had to believe me, you would not believe me until I presented the cash. You might be hopeful, but that’s not faith (and just a little stupid).

            Yet with Religion and Rossi this is what happens.

            In my case to both Religion and Rossi I say “put up or shut up”

            And to those who try to use that line on me and others. Just recall that I and the other sceptics here have been putting up our doubts concerns and where possible proofs since day one.

          • Shane D.

            July 13, 2013 at 3:54 pm

            CC,

            That is quite a stretch to equate religious belief with being susceptible to con artists.

            You also seem to hold religious believers in as much contempt as you do Rossi believers. Lots of anger there.

          • CuriousChris

            July 15, 2013 at 1:02 am

            Its about believing without proof. That’s called faith and is central to Rossi believers. So being religious makes you more likely to believe scammers like Rossi. When I say religious I also include spiritualists and crop circle believers etc..

            Anger. Yeah perhaps a little. look at the problems in the world around you. A very large percentage of them hide behind the veil of religion. and a lot more than you would believe hide behind the veil of Christianity.

            Any group that promotes self righteousness is bound to cause problems.

  6. Jami Reply

    July 12, 2013 at 10:34 am

    Rossi is now not only helping cancer sick children but benefiting Focardi’s family, too. His benevolence knows no bounds (or it wouldn’t if he’d ever make any profit by selling anything). His new, secret partner seems to have picked up on the idea, too. When their new chief scientist called and said “Hey, when we deliver the first plant – can we hand over the profit to Focardi’s familiy rather than cancer sick children?” they said “Oh sure – go ahead. We don’t want the money anyway and whether it goes to children or your friend’s family makes no difference to us. And don’t forget to mention it publicly on your blog in case anybody asks.” And so it was:

    ———————
    “Giancarlo
    July 11th, 2013 at 8:17 AM

    Hoping to donate it to your staff, in memory of Sergio Focardi, when a public device will be born!

    Best Regards

    Giancarlo Di Grigoli
    Andrea Rossi
    July 11th, 2013 at 10:49 AM

    Giancarlo:
    We will donate it to the family of Prof. Sergio Focardi.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”

    • Al Potenza Reply

      July 12, 2013 at 5:08 pm

      What a guy!

      • Dale G. Basgall Reply

        July 12, 2013 at 6:37 pm

        “What a guy!”

        Al that’s a whole lot of contemplation in just three words.

        What a guy – that’s good. Just take facts alone that have transpired from him and the only facts seem to be about the personal side of Mr. Rossi and his past history of attempts to success.

        Is the e-cat fact, is the reaction fact, is there any facts here other than the fact we cannot see or touché a product using LENR?

        Fact is Mr. Rossi has said things to lead us on to a belief that he may have something in e-cat, then it’s just like I’m kidding not really ha-ha but we have always gotten a response from him in his e-mails to others that contend that things are on the way to the production shop.

        So what a guy really hit’s home because it appears there has been quite a lot of evaluation of Mr. Rossi’s character and little evaluation of a working e-cat product.

        • JNewman Reply

          July 12, 2013 at 6:53 pm

          When all there is is talk, you can only discuss the talker.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          July 12, 2013 at 7:02 pm

          “So what a guy really hit’s home because it appears there has been quite a lot of evaluation of Mr. Rossi’s character and little evaluation of a working e-cat product.”
          -
          That’s because there almost certainly is no working “e-cat product” and there never has been. Anyway, whose fault would that be that there has been “little evaluation”?

        • Thicket Reply

          July 12, 2013 at 7:16 pm

          Believers have short memories, or choose to ignore things. I know it’s been covered before but here is condensed history of Rossi’s criminal past. Folks actually think this man has discovered an energy breakthrough?

          November 27, 2004
          Andrea Rossi Acquitted of Recycling Toxic Waste
          Prosecutor Asked for 3.5 Year Sentence. Silvia Ferretto: Polluter Goes Free.

          (Note: This presumably is the basis for believers stating that Rossi was acquitted of charges. In fact, he was only acquitted of charges laid against him in 2004.)

          October 20, 2000
          Claimed he had the Formula to Transform Toxic Waste Into Black Gold, Only Succeeded in Causing Environmental Disaster
          “Oil Wizard” sentenced to 8 years
          Expenses Enough to Bankrupt Lacchiarella Refinery – Omar Turned Into Warehouse of Tanks Holding 57 Thousand Tons of Toxic Waste – Reclamation Costs More Than 30 Billion

          June 1, 2000
          Fugitive in the United States After Abandoning Hazardous Waste in Lacchiarella.
          “Oil Wizard” jailed.
          Andrea Rossi Arrested in Rome for Financial Collapse of Omar Refinery

          July 4, 1999
          Concentration of Toxic Waste
          Spring Cleaning the Lambro River
          Reclaiming “Black Pool” of Pollution in the Cascina Gazzera Region – The Regional Government has Allocated 56 Billion to Clean Riverbanks of Illegally Dumped Toxic Sludge

          October 23, 1998
          Two Years of Work and 40 Billion to Clean Toxic Waste Storage Area of Andrea Rossi.
          Lacchiarella, The Nightmare is Over
          Clean-up of former Omar Refinery is Complete, Region Will Celebrate on Sunday

          April 16, 1998
          Two Storage Tanks From Former Andrea Rossi Refinery Release 250 Tons of Toxic Sludge
          Omar, Shadow of Sabotage
          Director of Lacchiarella Clean-up: “No Accident” – First Leak of Toxic Sludge From Tank Was 9 Years Ago

          February 28, 1998,
          Gold Trafficking – Rossi’s Accomplices Strike a Deal

          June 11, 1997,
          At Rossi and Pirani Trial – Witness Reveals That Property was Sold for a Tenth of the Actual Price “ Phony Sales Contract for Former Omar Petrol Dragon Refinery

          May 23, 1997
          “Tax Evasion, Forged Invoices: Andrea Rossi Sentenced to 2 Years 8 Months.”

          April 10, 1997
          The “Oil Wizard” has Taken Flight
          In Absentia Trial Held for Inventor of Petrol Waste Formula. Worldwide Wild Goose Chase for [Perpetrator] of Industrial Poisons.

          March 19, 1997
          When All is Said and Done
          Petrol Dragon Judgment Upheld

          February 15, 1997
          Andrea Rossi and Three Colleagues on Trial for Bogus Sale of Petrol Dragon
          Secret Pact/Agreement to Sell Former Refinery Property

          October 8, 1996
          News in Brief
          Gold Trafficking, Trial for Rossi and Partner
          September 25, 1996
          Gold Trafficking and Tax Evasion. Trial for Andrea Rossi

          March 28, 1996
          “Sentence Doubled for Rossi – Omar Toxic Waste.”

          March 16, 1996
          1 Year Requested for Rossi – Omar Toxic Waste

          March 3, 1996
          Investigations in Milan and Monza Reveal Petrol Dragon Secret Pact
          Handcuffs and Seizures for Omar
          New Owner in Jail, Property Seized as Criminal Assets. Further Inquiry and Investigations Opened in Monza.

          February 21, 1996 Monza
          Andrea Rossi’s Gold. September Trial.

          February 20, 1996 Former Owner of Petrol Dragon and Omar, Accused of Tax Fraud and False Invoicing

          Andrea Rossi, Jewelry Troubles
          January 18, 1996 The “Oil Making Factory” in Lacchiarella
          “ Oil Wizard” on Trial

          September 26, 1995 18,000 Tons of Toxic Sludge Illegally Stored in Tanks is Dangerous
          “ Diffuse the Bomb”: Coalition of 23 Mayors Gives Prime Minister Ultimatum on Toxic Waste in Dresano

          May 24, 1995
          Precious Metals Scam – Rossi Under House Arrest

          April 6, 1995
          Trouble Mounts for Entrepreneur – From Gold Trafficking to Toxic Waste to Precious Metals
          Handcuffs Again for Andrea Rossi

          March 30, 1995
          Michele Pizzato Would Have Left Over 10 Billion Unaccounted for from Ambro Bank of Chiasso
          Illegal Gold, Concurrent Investigation: Andrea Rossi’s Partner Wanted in Switzerland

          March 29, 1995
          “Andrea Rossi Arrested in Monza: Tax Fraud and False Billing. Toxic Waste, Illegal Gold. Inventor of “Waste to Oil” Formula Jailed.” Recently Formed Trafficking Ring, A Successful Collaboration of International Accomplices.
          Three Communities Deal with Warehouses of Liquid Waste Left by Man Who Would Turn it Into Oil. Andrea Rossi Jailed and the Province Wants to Know: “Who Will Pay the Costs to Begin Recovery?”

          April 1, 1994
          Oil Producer Accused of Polluting Ground Water
          Andrea Rossi, former Director of PETROL DRAGON and Allesandro Reale, Current Bankruptcy Liquidation Administrator, Prosecutor Hypothesizes That Waste was Illegally Disposed and Resulted in Lead Contaminated Ground Water

          March 9, 1994
          Oil from Waste? Toxic and Unusable: The Regional Government has Ordered the Closure of the Petrol Dragon Plant and Revoked Permits for the Collection and Storage of Toxic Waste. Owner Andrea Rossi was the Inventor of a Formula That Would Transform Toxic Waste to Crude Oil.

          April 1, 1993
          A Sea of Poison: Former Omar Refinery in Lacchiarella Seized on Tuesday: Second Charge Since 1989 – Would Become Storage Area of Toxic Waste from PETROL DRAGON

          March 24, 1993
          Trial Court Judgment
          “ Oil From Waste” Refinery Director Sentenced
          8 Months of Incarceration and 3 Million in Fines for Andrea Rossi, 43 Year Old Director Of Petrol Dragon and Omar Refinery

          April 12, 1992
          From Waste and Gas to Trouble
          Inventor of Oil “Autocracy” Andrea Rossi, Director of PETROL DRAGON, Found Guilty on Charges of Illegal Transport, Storage and Disposal of Toxic Waste

          February 28, 1992
          Trial Court
          “ Only Thing From Petrol Dragon is Toxic Sludge”
          Prosecutor Asks for 16 Month Sentence for Andrea Rossi.

          January 14, 1992
          Indictment
          False Invoicing from Petrol Dragon
          Appearing in Court on January 21st on Charges of Tax Evasion – Andrea Rossi, 41 – Giovanni Madonnini, 51 – Elio Gambini, 43 – Vittorio Valvassori, 50

          July 26, 1989
          Excerpt:
          After chemical analysis, it turns out that the substance is a mix of untreated toxic waste which contains highly dangerous chemical solvents with high presence of chlorine and sulphuric acid. In sum, a true bomb, highly dangerous. It seems that there is more. In at least one of the deposits, there appear to have been found traces of dioxin, the very dangerous poison of the Seveso tragedy

          • RonB

            July 12, 2013 at 8:56 pm

            Note: This presumably is the basis for believers stating that Rossi was acquitted of charges. In fact, he was only acquitted of charges laid against him in 2004.)

            Did you list the charges from 2004 and I missed it?

            I take it this is a list of newspaper headlines and that several of the dates represent your reporting the same thing over?

          • Thicket

            July 12, 2013 at 9:06 pm

            The 2004 charge was for recycling toxic waste. Prosecutor asked for 3.5 years. Rossi was acquitted.

            List is condensed from media articles. The full list is much longer, but I picked out key ones. Each item on the list has a media report associated with it.

          • Jordi Heguilor

            July 12, 2013 at 9:27 pm

            Well, OK, but except for THAT… what reason do you ACTUALLY have for distrusting Rossi?

          • RonB

            July 12, 2013 at 9:44 pm

            Thicket,

            Each item on the list has a media report associated with it.
            From that posting I would take it to mean that each item on your list was an actual separate charge against him. If not, I am curious as to how many charges were actually leveled against him and how many he was found guilty of. That seems more important than how many times his name showed up in newspapers. Right?

          • R Hopeful

            July 12, 2013 at 9:48 pm

            More reasons? He has no scientific background, and he patented a thermoelectric generator which did not work.

            We will find out soon.

          • Thicket

            July 13, 2013 at 12:27 am

            RonB

            He was sentenced to 8 months in 1993 for illegal transport, storage and disposal of toxic waste.

            He was sentenced to 2 years and 8 months in 1997 for tax evasion and forged invoices.

            He was sentenced to 8 years in 2000 for the financial collapse of Omar Refinery. He had been a fugitive in the U.S. before returning to Rome.

          • Al Potenza

            July 13, 2013 at 7:48 am

            One of Rossi’s main acquittals with respect to Petroldragon was due to the law involved in charging him being “ex post facto” — it did not exist at the time he committed the crime. Another was, IIRC, due to a lapse in the statute of limitations.

            Without a doubt, Rossi left the province where Petroldragon was located with a bill of $60M US or more. And without a doubt, he never made a drop of useable oil.

  7. Luigi Nonsenzo and his X-Ray Chick Reply

    July 12, 2013 at 8:16 pm

    What Rossi is good at is identifying a “would really like to have” kind of product, and then pretending that he has an invention to solve the problem. Since there’s a sucker born every minute, it provides an endless source for his talent.

    In real life, I doubt he’s ever invented a damn thing.

  8. Jordi Heguilor Reply

    July 12, 2013 at 9:30 pm

    Jeez, I had no idea emotions were running so high about the Ecat affair.

    I just heard that ecw suffered a terrorist attack: someone threw an Elementary Physics Manual at them…

    • Luigi Nonsenzo and his X-Ray Chick Reply

      July 12, 2013 at 10:14 pm

      LOL!

    • RonB Reply

      July 13, 2013 at 6:44 am

      lol tsk tsk tsk

      Tosses a copy of “Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy” at Jordi.

      • Jordi Heguilor Reply

        July 13, 2013 at 8:03 pm

        Ron, I’m a big Douglas Adams’ fan, but I don’t get the joke.

        • RonB Reply

          July 13, 2013 at 9:48 pm

          Jordi, it was the book that was closest to hand here! : )

          From your funny comment I would suspect you like Monty Python too.

  9. blaze Reply

    July 12, 2013 at 11:39 pm

    Interesting, looks like they’re already to build reactors based on these ideas:

    http://www.mvguam.com/local/news/22144-clean-nuclear-power-eyed.html

    http://globalenergycorporation.net/Tech.aspx

    Our experiments are repeatable.
    Our experiments have been replicated by others.
    Our experiments provide direct evidence that nuclear reactions are involved including the production of high-energy neutrons. Although our experimental results are not predicted by current nuclear physics theories, the results are real.

    The GeNiE Reactor is not prone to melt down since it doesn’t rely on a chain-reaction to produce high-energy neutrons. The GeNiE Reactor will extract more energy from the fuel than conventional nuclear Reactors. The GeNiE Reactor is lower cost since it doesn’t required enriched uranium and it doesn’t produce hazardous nuclear waste that is costly to handle.

    Officials of the Navy on Guam, including Capt. John V. Heckmann Jr., CO of Naval Facilities and a professional engineer, attended the GEC briefing.

    The GEC board of directors, Khim says, includes some well-known Washington D.C. Players, including former Secretary of Defense Frank Carlucci, former Congressman and Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta, and former U.S. Congressman Tom Davis, among others.

    24 peer reviewed papers.

    Who needs Rossi if this works? I really dont need a LENR reactor in my basement, thank you…

    • Luigi Nonsenzo and his X-Ray Chick Reply

      July 13, 2013 at 12:24 am

      If I read this right, they’ve found a LENR electrochemical process which can either be used directly or can be used to produce fast neutrons for conventional nuclear fission of uranium.

    • R Hopeful Reply

      July 13, 2013 at 5:27 am

      The article is from early 2012, and the last paper mentioned on their web site is from 2010. What happened since then? Another project that fell over the wayside?
      The problem with this approach is that their reactor is for the most part a conventional nuclear design, and it will have to address all the nuclear power regulations -a lot of time and money.
      But they claim to be able to reproduce LENR reactions, just at low power. Hey, that would be huge!. Mrs Mesier-Boss has produced respectable results, I wonder if she is collaborating with them.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      July 13, 2013 at 7:45 am

      There was something seriously wrong with this announcement which is old by internet standards. I remember discussing it before.

      Unfortunately, I don’t recall what exactly the problem was and I sure as hell am not going to research it all again.

      I might look in the Moletrap archives to see if it’s there.

      • blaze Reply

        July 13, 2013 at 10:00 am

        There’s nothing wrong with it in theory.

        It’s just a lot of R&D to build a whole new type of nuclear reactor, not to mention insurance nightmare. Plus it takes forever to build out.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          July 13, 2013 at 8:35 pm

          The problem is that apparently, the reactor has *not* been built or properly tested. It’s supported by Edgar Mitchell which neither here nor there except that he’s a total loon. Going to Guam? Why? Why not build one and show it publicly– even a small proof of concept one with which to collect performance data?

          I think this is a boondoggle to get Guam money and “see what happens then”.

    • Shane D. Reply

      July 13, 2013 at 3:41 pm

      After making this startling proposal to power the island of Guam with their GeNie reactor, GEC seems to have disappeared. Very odd.

      The Guam Power Association that was to choose energy vendors stated they were interested in GECs product, yet the reported news ended with this one article. Or at least I couldn’t find anything else.

      Last fall I googled “GEC” and found they had a brand new website that was much better then the one they have now (hasn’t been updated in 3 years), but then a few days later the website showed under construction and still is to this day.

      So there was a brief spurt of activity.

      Also, there was something a while back that 1 or 2 of the SPAWAR scientists working with Moss had gone over to GEC.

  10. blaze Reply

    July 13, 2013 at 12:55 am

    • Al Potenza Reply

      July 13, 2013 at 7:42 am

      Excess over what? That *essential* piece of data is missing. How strange.

      • blaze Reply

        July 13, 2013 at 9:58 am

        Indeed it is! Keeps us on our toes until ICCF I guess. Find out in a week!

      • RonB Reply

        July 13, 2013 at 9:46 pm

        Al,
        I’m thinking excess over input. :p

        • blaze Reply

          July 13, 2013 at 11:35 pm

          But what input? And exactly what excess? Hopefully we find out next week.

    • CuriousChris Reply

      July 15, 2013 at 1:39 am

      In that report Giorgio Vassallo claims that Celanis experiment was replicated by the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project.

      That is incorrect (deception?) They have attempted to replicate it they have not replicated it to date.

      The experiment needs to be successful before considering it a replication. given that faux paux what should we think of anything he writes?

  11. Jordi Heguilor Reply

    July 13, 2013 at 4:20 am

    I don’t remember whether I read about the H-Ni reaction here or in Wavewatching, so I’ll post it in both.

    I believe that it was in this Forum that someone with many years experience in electro-chemistry mentioned that the H-Ni reaction was very old, used for many purposes, and if something unusual had happened, we would know by now. (I’m going by memory, correct me if I’m wrong.)

    Considering that the anomalous results since P&F share low-to-non replicability, and the extra energy is minuscule, could it be that something happened but it was not noticed because nobody was looking for it?

    As an example, if we are cracking petroleum, our focus is in the yield of each fraction, energy needed for the cracking, pollution created, whatever, not on detecting a tiny excess of energy.

    If that were the case, it would reinforce the theory that LENR is an interesting phenomenon, but one without practical applications. I joked elsewhere about my “free-energy photonic motor” (aka radiometer). Inexpensive, environmentally friendly, 100% replicable. And useless as a source of energy. We could spend a billion dollars in optimizing the radiometer, and it will NEVER produce usable energy.

    One positive thing about LENR is that it does not require a lot of money to experiment with it. You must remember F&P’s apparatus, we’re talking way less than 100K to reproduce it. So, by all means, keep experimenting with LENR, but don’t reach the conclusion that throwing money at it will solve all the world’s energy problems.
    Reply

    • blaze Reply

      July 13, 2013 at 6:04 am

      e=mc^2 is a bit different than your “free-energy photonic motor”

      Anyways, I think all will be revealed soon at ICCF / NI-WEEK, so this drama will soon be over.

      • RonB Reply

        July 13, 2013 at 6:49 am

        blaze, from what I’ve been picking up, I think you might be right about the ICCF. Speaking of throwing things out there.. *grin*

        Maybe Green was right all along! *ducks*

        • JNewman Reply

          July 13, 2013 at 1:58 pm

          I can just visualize it: “We have cracked it, Hans. We have the solution to all the world’s energy problems. This could be worth trillions, so we must keep it secret. But we should at least send an email to RonB. He won’t tell.”

      • Al Potenza Reply

        July 13, 2013 at 5:46 pm

        “Anyways, I think all will be revealed soon at ICCF / NI-WEEK, so this drama will soon be over.”
        -
        Perhaps I am losing the drift. WHAT will be revealed at NI Week and ICCF18? Certainly nothing credible from either Defkalion or Rossi. Defkalion will probably make the same empty and baseless claims to high sustained power levels they made last year– those are nothing but empty words without the slightest supporting evidence.

        And Rossi, the lowlife slimebag coward and felon, won’t be there at all.

        • blaze Reply

          July 13, 2013 at 11:34 pm

          Yugo, you make all these claims but you never back them up with links. You’re useless to me.

          What empty claims did Defkalion make last year? Link?

          I’ve read in many places that Defkalion will demo at NI-WEEK this year.

          https://www.google.ca/search?q=DEfkalion+demo+ni-week&oq=DEfkalion+demo+ni-week&aqs=chrome.0.57j62l3.4477j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

          • RonB

            July 14, 2013 at 12:38 am

            blaze, what Al is saying has a measure of truth to it. We were all around and shared the disappointments at missed commitments by DGT.
            Does missing a schedule deadline mean your a fraud? (If that was the case I’d been fired years ago). I never was fired because sometimes in engineering, schedules are your best guess at the time you make them. Good managers know this.
            These garage science types don’t have the resources of a fortune 500 company. I think that is what upsets some people the most.
            If someone can do the development on a shoestring, why would someone else need all the resources they currently have.

            I love the idea of some nutty professor making magic crystals to solve the worlds energy needs.

            As for the most recent demo, there were a few things learned that not many people mention. The waveform information gathered from the probe indicates that a pulse width modulation is occurring to regulate the heat. That’s quite a bit of work just to demonstrate cheese power, but stranger things have happened.
            I think DR from Vortex is getting very close to figuring this thing out.

          • Al Potenza

            July 14, 2013 at 2:19 am

            “Yugo, you make all these claims but you never back them up with links. You’re useless to me.”
            -
            ROTFWL! It’s not me who’s “useless to you”, it’s Defkalion!

            First of all, it isn’t my job to bring you up to date if you have not kept up or followed the story. I have followed it carefully for two years.

            But the reason I can’t give you links to previous promises and ridiculous claims by Defkalion is an instructive one: the fornicating prevaricators DELETED THEM. For something less than a year, there was an active forum on the Defkalion web site. It was somewhat censored but basically, they only deleted outright insults and spam. Most good questions, they kept, even when it made them look bad. Noteworthy, they gave no substantive answers to good questions. Not EVER. They mostly gave lame joke responses, some in Greek! But at least they kept the questions and comments.

            Well, that all ended. They not only froze the forum for a while but after that, they DELETED EVERY TRACE OF IT.

            Suffice it to know that TWO YEARS AGO they said they were actively testing table top fusion reactors with output in the 10kW range which ran for months on a small charge of nickel. And they said these had BUILT IN liquid flow calorimetry using high temperature coolants — some sort of oil, not liquid metal. They made many other claims as well. None was ever supported or followed up on.

            At one time the internet “way back machine” could retrieve some of the claims. I don’t know and have no time to find out if it still can.

            “I’ve read in many places that Defkalion will demo at NI-WEEK this year.”
            -
            I doubt that they will demo anything but if they do, I will bet you dollars against donuts that nobody reliable will be allowed to correctly test their measurement methods, calibrations, blank runs, and overall setup to rule out chicanery.

            @RonB It’s not only about missed scheduled and non-existent testers and Greek government “certificators”, It’s also about equipment they say they had which if they really had it, would have made them billionaires by now. Think about it: a reliable, proven, 10kW, high temperature heat source using essentially no fuel. Wow. Except nobody has ever seen that animal. Sort of like the Sasquatch I guess.

          • Shane D.

            July 14, 2013 at 4:33 am

            I was on DGTs forum as “aviator” at the time and have a different take then Al. They were very open and as honest as could be. Very professional and funny if called for.

            You could tell they were splintered though as to how much to reveal when asked by posters, while also needing to allow for the often unpredictable product development of such a new technology. I got the impression that some in the new corporation supported their open forum while others didn’t.

            Depending on which camp reigned supreme that week determined the responses. It came across as confusing, but understandable with a new company. I believe different admins worked the site, and depending on who was there, what the management felt that day, reflected the tone conveyed.

            Overall though I was impressed with their candor. When you get right down to it they didn’t really need to have a forum but they kept it open nonetheless.

            In fact, overall it was a detriment, as every mature company discovers. Letting the MYs of the world teeing off on you and parsing every word to their detriment is self-defeating. They obviously came to that realization and understandably shut the forum down.

            On that note: Al is Al. He acted on there just as you see him act here and elsewhere by other pseudonyms. Boorish, aggressive, blinded by his hatred of anything LENR, and out for he kill. He alone was probably most responsible for DGTs decision to go silent. Can’t blame them. MY seems to have that effect wherever he goes.

            Funny when you think about it; MY is a champion for the truth yet his very actions close a lot of doors to the truth.

            Granted, DGT clearly mislead by some of their statements, just as has Rossi. I don’t know why anymore then I know why Rossi does… But overall I think they were good sports til Al came along.

          • RonB

            July 14, 2013 at 5:59 am

            But Al, if it only worked for a month or so and then had to have new spark plugs or sometimes it wouldn’t start up correctly or got too hot and quit working/destroyed itself, then they would just figure they needed to come up with a radical new design ala Rev 2.
            I think they are up to Rev 5 now.
            Al, sometimes I think you’re the research type and don’t really do the product development. I did that for 30 years. Sometimes it just takes what seems like forever to birth some radical new design.
            A product like this could take years to get right, it’s not as easy as one might think.

          • JNewman

            July 14, 2013 at 2:04 pm

            Ron, I’ve worked on developing products from brand-new technology with an unknown path to the market. One thing you don’t do is keep teasing the public about your great progress and keep making unkeep-able promises – at least not for long. Those who try that route usually implode. There could certainly be exceptions, but most companies that behave that way are shams. In fact, people who are really working on cutting-edge stuff that has real potential do one thing: keep their mouths shut.

          • RonB

            July 14, 2013 at 3:50 pm

            Newman,
            You’re right about that. It would be much better to keep the public announcements to zero ’till you have a warehouse full of them and patent applications filed. The reason that these two companies didn’t do that is still a mystery. There’s some speculation that they did let the info out as some sort of self protection to make sure that the concept and the people involved didn’t just disappear. Seems pretty outrageous to me but then stranger things have happened.
            Just the whole idea that there can be LENR is pretty outrageous in itself and very unlikely but not impossible.

          • JNewman

            July 14, 2013 at 4:27 pm

            It is interesting to come up with various excuses for the behavior of Rossi and Defkalion. If you have your heart set on them being for real, then it is important to keep conjuring them up because you need new ones all the time. For the rest of us, the old adage that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc. is a far simpler conclusion to draw.

          • blaze

            July 15, 2013 at 1:42 am

            I think if Defkalion does a big demo at NI-WEEK it won’t be fraud.

            The CEO at NI is a friend of Defkalion and wouldn’t abide for that nonsense. The credibility of his company is on the line.

            Also, Defkalion has so far avoided doing public demos.

            I think odds are likely they will flake on NI-WEEK. But if they do make it and do demo (not just video) it should be pretty thrilling.

      • ts Reply

        July 13, 2013 at 8:11 pm

        Either LENR/cold fusion/free energy/etc…conform to existing physics or a new , unknown branch of physics has to exist to explain these phenomena. It seems very unlikely one can find an explanation using existing physics for breaching the coulomb barrier at low temperatures and energies.

        So, that means there must be a parallel, heretofore undiscovered branch of physics which exists just to explain free energy claims. This branch of physics has not been discovered or noted despite the work and research of thousands of scientists and physicists over the decades. These researchers have had access to expensive, state of the art equipment and they can’t find these free energy effects. And yet we are to believe people are seeing excess energy in their garage or basement, after only a few weeks of effort in some cases, from this new branch of physics.

        • JNewman Reply

          July 13, 2013 at 10:20 pm

          Great, isn’t it?

          • Deleo77

            July 13, 2013 at 11:16 pm

            Well the example many people point to is the Wright Brothers. Many established scientists did not believe in the physics of flight, but two guys in a garage proved them wrong.

            But… that was at the beginning of the 20th century. And I think in human history, and I am talking hundreds of years from now, the 20th century will be known for taking the greatest leap in physics ever. It was a relatively short period after the Wright Bros. that we put a man on the moon. The same goes for Einstein and the evolution to particle accelerators, computer chips, and nuclear power plants. So perhaps physics is a more mature branch of science these days, as most of the major discoveries around it have been made.

            Is there room for one more? Maybe, but it is possible that there won’t be any major new discoveries in the field. I do not think this is the case with biology.. There is a lot in biology that we have yet to learn and turn into new inventions and industries So my bet is the next life changing discovery will come out of that area. And that discovery may have a huge impact on energy – more than anything that is going to come out of physics, and probably chemistry too.

          • JNewman

            July 14, 2013 at 3:24 am

            Nobody ever looked smart predicting that physics has it all figured out. LENR fans like to think that people who are not convinced by the existing data believe that physics is “complete”. No physicist I know remotely believes such a thing. However, most physicists firmly believe in the correspondence principle. Basically, this provides a pathway from established and successful physics theories to new theories needed to account for new experimental results. It avoids the highly improbable alternative that theories that have explained everything previously known turn out to be dead wrong. That is not likely to happen. What happens instead is that the old theory becomes a special or limiting case of the new theory. An example is Newtonian mechanics being replaced by relativity. Newton’s version is still right, provided things aren’t moving too fast.

            So if there really are new nuclear effects at low energies, it is not going to be that nuclear physics as we know if is all wrong. It will be because of the existence of a domain that previous observations had not entered before. Could this be the case for a tube full of nickel powder being heated up with a resistor? Anything is possible, but it is going to take some fancy explaining (and physics word salad like the W-L theory doesn’t fit the bill.) But until there is really persuasive evidence, conjuring up theories is science fiction literature.

        • Dale G. Basgall Reply

          July 14, 2013 at 6:13 am

          ts – your statement ” These researchers have had access to expensive, state of the art equipment and they can’t find these free energy effects.”

          Free Energy! “effects”? ts so do you actually believe there will ever be “free energy” in the form of the electrical current?

          Your text ts – “Either LENR/cold fusion/free energy/etc…conform to existing physics or a new , unknown branch of physics has to exist to explain these phenomena.”

          Ever heard of a “penta-quark” ts? Neither have I until today, kind of small, do they exist?

        • Stefan Reply

          July 14, 2013 at 10:14 pm


          Either LENR/cold fusion/free energy/etc…conform to existing physics or a new , unknown branch of physics has to exist to explain these phenomena. It seems very unlikely one can find an explanation using existing physics for breaching the coulomb barrier at low temperatures and energies.

          You should know that there might exist a solution to LENR that is just plain old known physics tested and developed throughout history. The thing is that complex materials are really hard to theoretically analyze, and therefore we can just claim that our tools are not well developed to take on the task of proving / disproving LENR. In order to theoretically understand these systems we need to develop new interesting tools that could be useful in other fields as well, like high temperature super conduction. So if you spend a 0.1 – few billion on numerical/mathematical development in this field and it ain’t an effect. You will most probably have gotten a net gain for science in large.

      • CuriousChris Reply

        July 15, 2013 at 1:20 am

        How many ICCF’s do we need? How many conferences?
        Everyone says this one will reveal all! as we have seen so far they are only ever gab fests for which someone must pay for the attendees to be there.

    • Dale G. Basgall Reply

      July 13, 2013 at 4:23 pm

      “We could spend a billion dollars in optimizing the radiometer, and it will NEVER produce usable energy.”

      Don’t limit your possibilities Jordi just because money can’t buy success, it can be made to look like a success with enough money dumped into it. The facts seem to point out that when you have the money to put into a project you have been a success with other things, success in making money that is.

      Projects like this LENR are potential new areas of science, most scientists are not driven by money but need to eat and live like any other person. It is true that money doesn’t accelerate the success of a project but the lack of it will prevent anything from happening at times.

      No matter what is known now or claimed, they will find these reactions claiming LENR will fall into conventional physics and also give off the known radiations of a nuclear reaction when operating optimally as a product. No pain – no gain so to speak.

      Nuclear radiation is an accumulative type of thing and it just keeps building in your system, so even the low emissions of LENR do not mean that after fully implemented it will be safe to live near a LENR reactor collecting electrical energy.

      The part of discovery is one thing in finding a sea shell and so on, “it is discoverable” but it seems this LENR is beyond discovery and needs precise formulation which is quite different than discovering something. Anyway when I view all the precise steps that need to happen just to observe a LENR cell in operation I am re assured that much time, money, and testing need to happen as well as a correct theory of operation prior to any realistic results from the product of LENR.

      Jordi your written text “So, by all means, keep experimenting with LENR, but don’t reach the conclusion that throwing money at it will solve all the world’s energy problems.” may be a correct analogy however without a concentrated effort and millions of dollars put forward for research LENR will never be developed.

      After all initial costs for development as well as time spent on the way to producing a formula that works it may be as expensive as our nuclear fission reactors at a claimed 3% efficiency standard. Not a holy grail for electrical energy production and I doubt LENR products will ever replace the grid power since the e-cat runs on electricity and produces steam. A supplementary product at best just like the PV panels, wind power, wave power and so on.

      So in an economically designed lifestyle it appears the best inventions may just set on the shelf because it is more expensive to produce electricity in any other way than the conventional fuel oil burning which only requires a bunch of people drilling a hole and extracting crude oil and continuing the process of taking a valuable mineral from the earth freely. Now that’s over unity, drill a hole and take what’s already available and power the cement palaces of consumption.

    • Stefan Reply

      July 14, 2013 at 8:48 pm


      I believe that it was in this Forum that someone with many years experience in electro-chemistry mentioned that the H-Ni reaction was very old, used for many purposes, and if something unusual had happened, we would know by now. (I’m going by memory, correct me if I’m wrong.)

      Good point. I think that the H-Ni setup of LENR is pretty weak starting-point for trying to sanitize LENR research. It’s too much behind the scenes, eg. any significant claims seams to be behind the tinkerer firewall. No, a proper statistical test with a power, where a assumed 5% success rate should be discovered most probably, say at 95%, done by say 3 independent institutions would be enough of test the notion of F&P effect according to what is known today. We have really enough information to design the test, and perform it today, there is no more development needed,
      the subject is not to underdeveloped, there is no problem with repeatability, if one does what the medical researcher usually does, a few proper statistical tests.


      han 100K to reproduce it. So, by all means, keep experimenting with LENR, but don’t reach the conclusion that throwing money at it will solve all the world’s energy problems.

      Throwing money is generally a bad bad strategy. No one need to sanitize the field and incorporate it as a normal field of research. For that you need to supply grants, so that new clever Phd’s have a possibility to start working in the field without destroying their career. One need to “reprogram” the scientific curriculum to actually support the new field e.g. the support and cross breeding between different fields of science need to be enabled. Support from peer review processes that help so much in getting high quality papers out. For all this I would estimate that billions of dollars is really too much, but you really need to increase the current lever quite a bit to actually do anything constructive and I do concur that having an institution e.g. well controlled statistics that talks about getting the F&P effect over a hundred times (SRI). Now the F&P effect is really not a tiny effect to the degree that it is perhaps either a powerful way of storing energy or it’s some mysterious nuclear reaction.

    • Thicket Reply

      July 13, 2013 at 5:26 pm

      I hope you’re not suggesting this has any kind of credibility? Rossi went to jail three times. Why would anyone believe a convicted felon when he tries to rationalizes his crimes?

      Time and time again he’s shown himself to be a pathological liar.

      • Luigi Nonsenzo and his X-Ray Chick Reply

        July 13, 2013 at 6:05 pm

        There is one and only one overriding theme in all of Rossi’s documented crimes – deception. Remember this when reading anything written by the man. For that is all one needs to know.

      • Shane D. Reply

        July 13, 2013 at 6:18 pm

        Thicket,

        I will let the reader decide.

        After reading Rossis side though I can identify with what he went through. He may very well have been rail-roaded by corrupt politicians in cahoots with the mafia. It happens there all the time.

        The reader should also keep in mind that Rossi still lives between the two countries and has business in Italy. He surely isn’t treated as an ex-criminal over there.

        I don’t think we have the whole story.

        • JNewman Reply

          July 13, 2013 at 6:37 pm

          Out of curiosity, Rossi has been talking about all his US activities for a year or two. Is there any actual evidence that anything related to the eCat has even taken place in the US? Every time we actually see anything, it’s in Italy. C’mon Rossiarians, where’s the evidence?

          • RonB

            July 13, 2013 at 9:43 pm

            Newman, That’s a good point. Hummmmm

          • Shane D.

            July 14, 2013 at 12:15 am

            Guess we believers have to wear dreadlocks since we are “Rossiarians” now?

            I mon, dun go taukin bout no Rossi. Yah skeptics bald man mi iya.

            You could be right by the way. One never knows with Rossi. But what else is new?

          • Al Potenza

            July 14, 2013 at 8:20 am

            Shane, I think fairly soon, Rossi supporters will all be wearing dunce caps!

          • JNewman

            July 14, 2013 at 2:06 pm

            I doubt that. I think Rossi supporters will be doing just what they are doing and feeling just as smart about it a year from now or two years from now: waiting for their ship to come in.

          • CuriousChris

            July 15, 2013 at 1:17 am

            @Shane.
            You were asked a direct question. the answer you responded with was a diversion.

            Where is the answer?

          • JNewman

            July 15, 2013 at 3:01 am

            I have lost count of the direct questions I have asked Rossi supporters over the past two years. To the best of my recollection, not a single one has ever been answered. This aversion to pertinent facts is quite characteristic.

    • Jordi Heguilor Reply

      July 14, 2013 at 3:17 am

      Since Rossi has never been caught lying, all that you posted must be true.

  12. 123star Reply

    July 13, 2013 at 10:34 pm

    I wonder why the order of comments is messed up (comments which are not replies to other comments should be sorted by date). Admin, did you try to update wordpress or wordpress plugins?

    • RonB Reply

      July 14, 2013 at 12:41 am

      123.. there was a link posted that was corrupted and when the posting was deleted so was sanity in the ordering of posts.

  13. Shane D. Reply

    July 14, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    This latest Rossi falls in line with my theory that the ecat was too unreliable, with a lower COP then stated (still overunity), leading Rossi to bluff his way along as he worked the kinks out:

    Frank Acland:

    All the points you touched are encompassed in what I said recently, which is: the E-Cat technology is undergoing rigorous testing and the results, whatever they are, will provide further guiodance about its potential.

    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    So he isn’t sure what the results of the testing are going to be, but the military has had a unit in operation over a year now that has worked flawlessly?

    Sounds like the ecat is not ready for prime time still, yet Hydrofusion is setting up a Finnish company to showcase it’s (ecats) performance. It will be interesting to see how this plays out this fall.

    Of course he could be talking about only the hotcat.

    • hoola Reply

      July 14, 2013 at 4:31 pm

      Swedish, not Finnish.

    • Deleo77 Reply

      July 14, 2013 at 5:20 pm

      I think Rossi is walking back many of the claims he has made over the past months and years. These recent posts of his may be a polite way of telling the followers of this story to go find something else to do. I have not been following this nearly as long as most here, so perhaps Rossi has given these answers before, but if not, it would seem that he may be trying to quietly fade away.

      He could just turn off his blog, but I imagine if he gives this same answer for a year or two, just about everyone is going to move on, and that would be a quieter exit for him. I wish he was in the U.S. working with some big company and getting ready to commercialize the e-cat. But as it has been said above, there really is no proof that Rossi is even in the U.S. He could have closed shop in Italy and headed anywhere.

      • blaze Reply

        July 14, 2013 at 9:55 pm

        Yeah, the latest posts are somewhat concerning. I’m not sure he’s in the US either.

        If it wasn’t for the arvix report, Hoistad, and other LENR work coming out my 80% estimate of him being a fraud in him would probably be increasing.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      July 14, 2013 at 7:02 pm

      “It will be interesting to see how this [the hydrofusion donation of power]plays out this fall.”
      -
      It won’t. With Rossi, it’s going to be either a shill company belonging to him or his crook distributor friends, or it’s not going to happen. For sure it won’t be a transparent operation with a known reliable company.

      What it may be is that some Rossi company will sell electric or thermal power to a reliable company… but behind the scenes, the power will come *entirely* from the mains. As usual.

    • Thicket Reply

      July 14, 2013 at 10:29 pm

      Shane

      And don’t forget the 94 (or was it 97) eCats he had running in 4 countries back in 2011, or the million eCats he was going to manufacture in 2012, and the Bondeno eCat that was heating his factory continuously for 24 hours a day back in 2008. and the eCats he has sold to customers.

    • CuriousChris Reply

      July 15, 2013 at 1:15 am

      Why is it acceptable to believers that Rossi “bluff his way along as he worked the kinks out”

      Given his previous claims in what universe is this acceptable behaviour?

      • JNewman Reply

        July 15, 2013 at 3:03 am

        The alternative is to conclude Rossi is a fraud, and that just won’t do.

  14. Stefan Reply

    July 14, 2013 at 9:50 pm

    To continue on discussing on the topic,

    Previously I stated that Bo is wrong in not digesting the proposed topics by the critique. He counters that they are all moot points, well is it?

    Take the suggestion of using the raw power directly in stead the seemingly clumsy detour around the Temperatures. Well Bo might know how much calibration is needed to actually get those correct temperatures and dismisses the suggestion as just stupid because it would do more harm than good. No, the critique is right!!!, the principle is really clumsy and the way to argue is to discuss the bad thing actually performing the suggestion with the current camera, but also state that it is a good point and that in the next run’s they will do the tests with a camera that can output W/m²

    Cheers!

    • Luigi Nonsenzo and his X-Ray Chick Reply

      July 14, 2013 at 10:14 pm

      They had better do a helluva lot better than that, next time. They had better address every point made by E&P.

      If there is a next time, that is.

      • Stefan Reply

        July 14, 2013 at 10:35 pm

        Well not exactly all.

        The notion that a researcher should not believe in the effect is a bit hard boiled. It is of no harm to the proof to actually have that, but a bit unrealistic. People tend to be subjective and if they do not find an error and the test seams to be conclusive, they usually cannot help see it in a positive light and become somewhat of a believer and that will then show in the authoring of the paper. No it is far more important to actually be able to take at suitable times a role of a critical minded scientist. Actually negative thinking is hindering creativity so I recommend researchers to in stead learn how to take different roles at different times, or design teams where you have all roles involved. Now I would in a critique like E&P stress the lack of evidences (in the paper) for a (temporally) critical mind. Then as you stress, you would still have a dependency effect, but also doing these test, say three times with different teams, would be enough to minimize the risk of bluff. Else for the rest of E&P paper there might be a few more points that might not need to much commentary, but on the hole you are right, they should list all points, contemplate, and counter with something intelligent and constructive.

      • Deleo77 Reply

        July 14, 2013 at 10:49 pm

        There isn’t going to be a next time at this point. Those tests were about Hydrofusion, ELFORSK, Leonardo Corp., Levi, Focardi, Essen, the warehouse in Ferrara… Everything from Rossi lately indicates the he has left it all behind. He has now thrown the entire fate of his invention in the hands of his U.S. partner. Is the Swedish team going to fly to the U.S. and do the 6 month test here? How can 7 people do that and not be able to disclose where they did the test, because everything is now so highly confidential with the new partner that Rossi won’t even snap a simple photo of the e-cat anymore.

        And when Hydrofusion comes asking for their e-cat in the Fall, Rossi will just give them the same answer that he gave Frank above – “the partner is testing the e-cat and will gauge its potential as a commercial product at a future date.”

        • Stefan Reply

          July 14, 2013 at 11:09 pm

          I actually find this statement probable in the

          1)
          light of it all being a real thing. If there is a significant US company, they would make a product, a couple of patents, engage a US high profile university(ies) to test it, and then when all have is finished have a joint press release. During this process very little of information would be released.

          2)
          If it’s a real thing, and the company is run from the hip, I would expect anything.

          If it’s a bluff, He would now have an exit strategy by simulating 1)

          Probably you guy’s can take a summer break soon!

          Cheers

        • Luigi Nonsenzo and his X-Ray Chick Reply

          July 14, 2013 at 11:12 pm

          It’s his usual modus operandi – present a moving target. The test on the same device will never be repeated by a truly independent team in an independent lab, even with a Rossi man standing guard and NDA’s in place.

          My prediction.

  15. Al Potenza Reply

    July 15, 2013 at 1:03 am

    About Defkalion:

    “I was on DGTs forum as “aviator” at the time and have a different take then Al. They were very open and as honest as could be. Very professional and funny if called for.”
    -
    Absolute nonsense. They never gave ONE straight answer, only tangential ones. Or perhaps you know who their Greek government testers were? The ones they gave Hyperions to test? The ones a reporter tried to track down only to be told by a member of Parliament they didn’t exist? And nothing had been given to the government? Remember that?

    Defkalion constantly claimed to be showing the Hyperion to many prestigious organizations and to be “working with them”. In two and a half years, no such organization has ever been revealed. They were lying. They said they had a factory and showed a vacant slum building. They were lying. They didn’t then and they don’t know have production facilities. They have a modest office over a restaurant and bar in Vancouver and they have a bit of space they rent from a university that they are NOT associated with.

    The papers that Defkalion presented are nothing but claims — totally incredible, extravagant and unsupported claims to high power LENR for long periods.

    NOTHING about these people has ever been convincing including the silly story that somehow they figured out what Rossi was doing and they stole it. Absurd– all of it. You fell for nothing but lies and hype.

    • CuriousChris Reply

      July 15, 2013 at 1:10 am

      I was also on Defkallions forums towards the end. Their openness surprised me at first.

      But it was obvious in the months leading up to the closure that that was changing.

      They started to censure posts and to threaten lawsuits. They were unable to curb the discontent at their failure to follow through on their claims.

      Perhaps they thought an open forum might make their claims seem more real. Perhaps they did not realise that they would not only attract people who “wanted to believe” but people who had trouble reconciling their claims.

      In the end they closed and deleted the forums. That says everything.

      • Deleo77 Reply

        July 15, 2013 at 1:37 am

        I understand being upset that Defkalion shut down their forum. That was a bad move. But I have read reports of people visiting their offices, and they sound fine.

        As for scientists who have shown some positive attitudes towards Defkalion you have Michael Nelson, who has been at NASA for 30 years, and Professor Kim from Purdue Univeristy, who gave the response below.
        Of course the demo could have been rigged, and this was not independent in any way.

        But at least Defkalion is showing up to the conference at the University of Missouri later this summer. They are not hiding, People attending can ask them questions face to face and try to flush out their answers. Rossi, who is now full time in America, can’t make it to the largest LENR conference in the U.S. I know people here can’t stand Rossi or Defkalion, but I think Defkalion is looking a lot better at the moment. They may have nothing but they are at least putting a little better face on their efforts than Rossi is.

        “Recently, I had an opportunity to observe experimental runs of DGTG’s R-5 reactor carried out by their group of scientists in Vancouver. The results were positive. More importantly the results are reproducible, since there had been many positive runs with other observers so far in addition to my observation. This is very significant historically since we have now a device which yields reproducible results for the first time. It is a break-through which we have been waiting for.

        The break-through is accomplished by new comers, new breed of scientists and engineers lead by a mathematician who became an excellent scientist. This is a new wave and new paradigm change.”

        • Shane D. Reply

          July 15, 2013 at 1:56 am

          Deleo,

          Hadjichristos, DGTs mathematician turned LENR scientist, may turn out to be the second most interesting player, behind Rossi, in this saga.

          Hard to fathom him participating in a scam. Clean history. Nothing in his bio to suspect that in his later years he would decide to become a con artist.

          Very smart guy too. Mathematicians aren’t your typical scientist type of lower caliber like MY. Calorimetry expert/ mathematician… Hmmm. No contest. :)

          • Deleo77

            July 15, 2013 at 2:07 am

            And Defkalion has a team of scientists. When people report of their visits there they talk about multiple scientists working on the device and running the tests. It would be hard to think of it as a scam and not believe that the whole team would be in on it. Could a scam be kept from people working on it every day? With Rossi we never saw a lot of people around the e-cat, just him. So that made me a little more suspicious.

            But Defkalion has vouched for Rossi in some ways, so it is all kind of confusing. There is the conference at Missouri on the 21st, and the NI conference at the beginning of August. If Defkalion even shows a video of their device performing in a test (at probably the NI conference) I would think people would start to show some belief in them. I could see some mainstream press picking up on it.

          • CuriousChris

            July 15, 2013 at 6:09 am

            I was once involved in a scam. I was a potential target.

            When I went to investigate the ‘opportunity’ there were 20 guys all working on various parts of the equipment in the large factory. It looked very industrious.

            Each and everyone of them paid to be there. They thought they were on to a great thing and shelled out $40K for the privilege. In the end the promoter of the scam went to jail and I imagine those fools lost a portion if not all of their money.

            So Yeah Its really easy for me to imagine that they are not aware the whole thing is a scam. All you have to do is tell each one they are working on a small part of the whole and that the final ingredient is secret.

            For all we know they also could be actors hired for the ‘open days’ or cleaners in lab coats.

            Never take anything on face value. I have disputed DGT’s claim about the scientists from the beginning. Its so unreasonable that they managed to find 43 scientists trained in LENR. They are either from an unrelated field or shills or don’t exist at all.

          • CuriousChris

            July 15, 2013 at 6:16 am

            @Shane “Calorimetry expert/ mathematician… Hmmm. No contest.”

            Just to make sure casual readers are not confused by your statement.

            The mathematician loses to the calorimetry expert hands down everytime. A mathematician couldn’t calibrate their way out of a wet paper bag.

            I wouldn’t want people to mistakenly think you said something silly.

          • Al Potenza

            July 15, 2013 at 6:45 pm

            Hadjichristos is a verbose blowhard gasbag and so far nothing else. I tried to ask him a few simple questions in Peter Gluck’s blog and he ignored them and did not reply in any way. But he did have time to write several paragraphs of totally meaningless flowery oratory. He’s a jerk.

    • Shane D. Reply

      July 15, 2013 at 1:40 am

      Well readers…. Say you are a fledgling new company with a revolutionary product. You have a choice to start a talk forum knowing that the ALs of the net will be there to take everything you say, everything you do and run it through the MY blender with the end result always detrimental to your image and goals.

      Keep in mind the difficulties of a new product development, coupled with the always complex melding of new partners -most with different philosophies and leadership styles… And you are about to expose yourself to the likes of Al. Would you do it?

      Well DGT did and they got burned. Granted MY did have some points as he mentioned above, but we really don’t always know the whole story until the book is written later, although the Al’s of the world would have you believe otherwise.

      DGT was naively forthright by doing what they did. Early on one could see that, thanks to MY and 1 or 2 others, there was trouble ahead, yet they kept their forum open for quite awhile nonetheless. They actually were very funny and open. Yes there were things that didn’t match, promises that didn’t materialize, but overall they gave the feel of sincerity.

      DGT deserves credit for doing something they didn’t have to do.

      • ts Reply

        July 15, 2013 at 2:21 am

        Bloggers and internet posters say very negative and very positive things about established fortune 500 companies, with products on the market, all the time. All these LENR/Free energy people need to do is send a device to NASA, NREL, or the Swedish national institute that failed the Ecat. An independent test by their established measurement experts that actually passes will silence almost all the critics.

  16. Stefan Reply

    July 15, 2013 at 7:30 am

    In a sense, the harsh critics of Rossi and DGT etc. is really a good thing for all parts. For them if they have something because that will let them work in peace, for normal people in order for them to not do stupid things in faith of the new promised glorious technology, a frenzy stemming from such promises, can if let lose, do some serious damage I believe. On the other hand I think that we seriously mismanages the overall LENR field, and the ever light of fringe torching in that directions prevents good science to do it’s work. Also anybody following this drama closely can probably earn a buck or two if things turns out to be true, the tinkerers has called out the wolf so many times that people will not notice if serious evidences show up – a good arbitrage opportunity! at least for the critical mind.

    • Jami Reply

      July 15, 2013 at 10:07 am

      “the harsh critics of Rossi and DGT etc. is really a good thing”

      Yeah – I see your point. Like the Beatles. You have to disappear incognito and stay in a quiet hotel room for a while because writing the next big hit is a serious challenge when you’re buried under dozens of screaming chicks who all want a baby from you. It’s a tried, tested and true formula. Did you know that the guys at CERN faked their faster than light neutrinos because only the criticism caused by that cockup gave them the peace and quiet they so desperately needed to find the Higgs boson?

      • Stefan Reply

        July 15, 2013 at 10:36 am

        Hehe,

        Well that did not happen for F&P and it would not happen to Rossi and DGT. But quite a lot more heat would be flowing through the pipes if people would not be cautious but hail them as the master priests of the universe. It’s much more healthy to treat them as we do right know, putting people on high pedestals just end with big piles of pyramids. You actually hear quite a lot of stories about Nobel loriates, getting less done after getting the price.

        • Jami Reply

          July 15, 2013 at 11:14 am

          This will surprise you, but if I had to make up a list of the most important reasons for why Rossi shouldn’t get a Nobel, “it-would-distract-him-from-important-work” would hardly make the top 5. On the other hand – another extended stint in prison could very well give him the solitude necessary for scientific breakthroughs. Though Rossi himself would, given the choice, probably prefer screaming chicks and a Nobel. He just doesn’t know what’s good for him.

          • Stefan

            July 15, 2013 at 11:28 am

            Yeah, must of us would prefer screaming chicks (or screaming chucks for that matter) together with, is it, about one million dollar. And then relax and have fun. But what I meant was mainly if the critiques and professionals kept silence and media, internet and the like got into one hailing mode. For the end game you can then have as much fun as you like, and many Nobel loriates deserve that, no doubt about it.

          • Stefan

            July 15, 2013 at 11:53 am

            The last sentence came out wrong (I’m not native English). Do the right translation or have a really great laugh (sic)

    • Dale G. Basgall Reply

      July 15, 2013 at 6:22 pm

      Jordi; I read that article and to say the least that is a very personal type of comment based on a lack of understanding with lack of professionalism.

      The work scientists are doing now is realizing how missing physics is missing the true understanding.

      Point being why are the scientists now finding the proton is 4% smaller than originally viewed? Many of them are reporting that now as I have been told.

      Could it be they were viewing something else, possible I would say. That article by Gibbs is not well thought out, just a knee jerk reaction after he talked to “a professor” which they know it all right.

      Cold Fusion is simply words applied to something that is not more definable than any other words at present, and one should always leave windows open for new discoveries. Mark Gibbs wrote an article that will be proven wrong about the LENR sciences and he wrote it like an old man with a closed mind.

      So go ahead and close the door on cold fusion, LENR, and non discovered sciences based on an article originating from lack of working knowledge.

      • Luigi Nonsenzo and his X-Ray Chick Reply

        July 15, 2013 at 6:32 pm

        This is supposed to be science, not religion. Just because you believe in The Great Prophet Zarqon does not mean that anyone else has to follow suit.

        What you actually need, as opposed to wish you need, to make your case quite thoroughly is to have a device which has been tested in three independent laboratories by three independent teams, and declared a success by all three.

        So far, this has not happened.

        • Dale G. Basgall Reply

          July 15, 2013 at 6:46 pm

          Luigi what part of science isn’t religion? Scientists view something in their minds and write a theory that sometimes takes years to prove or disprove, so they have a belief based on mental viewing.

          In LENR something is happening so why dismiss it to garbage or cold fusion, they are just names pinned to an unknown at present.

          I find believing in something very personal to each individual so Gibbs wrote a very novice type article. He is a writer with an agenda just like the professor that commented to him.

          • CuriousChris

            July 17, 2013 at 5:30 pm

            “Luigi what part of science isn’t religion?”

            I can’t believe you said that. No part of science is religion. but there are plenty of people who try to lower science to a religion, including some scientists.

            Science steadfastly refuses to accept faith without proof.

            If someone “imagines” something and then applies some sort of test to their hypothesis it either fails or Fails to fail <== important!

            If the latter is true. that doesn't make the hypothesis 'true' it just means more testing is required. and a theory may be born.

            Alternately someone imagines something like say the alien Xenu, provides no testing of the hypothesis and then builds a business worth millions of dollars around followers who have faith without proof. We call that religion.

            I can't see the comparison.

            In science if you can't test it its called speculation or philosophy. To be science it must be falsifiable.

      • Jordi Heguilor Reply

        July 15, 2013 at 7:12 pm

        @ Dale: I didn’t write the article, merely reported it.

        This is off-topic LENR, but shows how much people can be misguided when beliefs trump science.

        http://www.rarenergia.com.br (There’s an English translation as you scroll down.)

        The MONEY they spent in this Perpetuum Mobile+… Notice how construction advances rapidly and then everything stops around the time they finished it. I would pay good money to see their faces when they tried to start it only to find out that someone had switched off gravity!

        • R Hopeful Reply

          July 16, 2013 at 3:58 am

          Wow, it is amazing how far they have carried it out. Two test sites, no less.

          On the other hand, this is a device which seemed impossible until somebody figured out how the laws of physics apply

        • R Hopeful Reply

          July 17, 2013 at 3:05 am

          Oops, the previous comment came out wrong: the device which seemed impossible is this “sailboat” that goes downwind faster than the wind.
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CcgmpBGSCI

      • JKW Reply

        July 16, 2013 at 4:35 am

        “Cold Fusion is simply words applied to something that is not more definable than any other words at present”
        Oh, so it is all about a words puzzle.. .We do need GreenWin to help us untangle this mess, then.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      July 15, 2013 at 6:47 pm

      It makes no difference what you call it. Whatever you choose to name cold fusion, what it needs is vastly better experiments and data than it has. I am hoping the Sidney Kimmel Institute with their fresh infusion of $5 million will do that but I am skeptical that they will. These days, that’s not a lot of money for this sort of work, unfortunately.

      • JNewman Reply

        July 15, 2013 at 7:16 pm

        The Forbes article does end with a great quote from Prof. David Goodstein of Caltech which in part says:

        “Between cold fusion and respectable science there is virtually no communication at all.…because the Cold-Fusioners see themselves as a community under siege, there is little internal criticism. Experiments and theories tend to be accepted at face value, for fear of providing even more fuel for external critics, if anyone outside the group was bothering to listen. In these circumstances, crackpots flourish, making matters worse for those who believe that there is serious science going on here.”

        I will start to have some respect for cold fusion researchers when they start trashing the charlatans in their midst instead of closing ranks and providing support for people like Rossi. Amongst today’s cold fusion notables, Steven Krivit is not a scientist so really doesn’t count, but at least he shows some integrity when it comes to Rossi.

        • Deleo77 Reply

          July 15, 2013 at 7:58 pm

          I think it is an interesting time, because Rossi really has been the lead horse in LENR, and he has been such a lightning rod, that he has completely taken over the LENR conversation. And when scientists look at Rossi, they can’t manage to take him seriously. His past is too sketchy, his demos are too non-transparent, and his claims are too wild. The more time I spend on Rossi’s blog, the more I begin to doubt him. That is not good. So the whole story could end there.

          But… the next few weeks could prove to be a really interesting time for LENR. You have the conference at U of Missouri, and then NI Week. It sounds like DGT has been getting the bulk of interest lately from reporters and companies. And they keep saying to everyone “just wait until NI week.” So given that it’s just a few weeks away. I say, let’s wait and see what they do. I would hope at the least to see a video of their demo. That would be a minimum amount of evidence to me, and while not independent, it would be enough to keep the conversation going. So no reports or claims by DGT. I think it is important to see something, either live for the attendees or at the least on video.

          If we get past NI week and nothing meaningful comes out of either conference, I think LENR will still be at square one, or maybe even square zero. But this work has been going on for years, and something meaningful that could even get the skeptics thinking might come to light within the next month. It may completely change the conversation here from Rossi to someone else. If that doesn’t happen, everyone may need to find something else to do.

          • Al Potenza

            July 15, 2013 at 8:06 pm

            I wouldn’t count on Defkalion. They’ve never done a thing to appear credible. Hadjichristos is nothing but a blow hard. And this string on Vortex is equivocal at whether or not they will try something for NI week.

            http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg84334.html

            The claim in this string that NI doesn’t want anyone competing for attention with them is beyond idiotic. Why do people keep making excuses for obvious crooks?

          • JNewman

            July 15, 2013 at 9:51 pm

            Roughly every 4 months for the past two years there has been a build-up to some upcoming pivotal event in the wacky world of LENR. Each time, things were really going to change. This is it. The moment we’ve been waiting for. If nothing happens this time, we will all just wander away. And lo and behold, the pivotal event takes place. Nothing happens. And we cool our collective heels for another few months until the next non-event. With this riveting history, I can hardly wait to see what happens next.

        • Shane D. Reply

          July 16, 2013 at 12:38 am

          JN,

          I see that as already happening. Surely Dr. Edmund Storms has begun the difficult task of instilling guidelines for LENR disciples to follow while corralling the free roamers back to the planet earth. Not an easy task, but it is definitely in motion.

          Then you have Jed Rothwell tightening the acceptable parameters of papers to be considered onto his site. Tough to watch old cold fusion stalwarts like DJ Cravens be read the riot act, but unfortunately I think it very necessary.

          Time to demand that everyone put up or shut up. Do a convincing demo, or present a well grounded theory. Enough of this half-arsed stuff. Without a defined science it is up to those naturally in places of respect within the field to lead the way, and it appears they are stepping up to the plate.

          Good for them!

          • Jami

            July 16, 2013 at 12:23 pm

            You know that a field is deader than dead when people like Edmund Storms and (even worse) Jed Rothwell are considered to be the voices of reason in it. Both of them would hands down qualify as village idiots in charge in any other field – at best.

          • Al Potenza

            July 16, 2013 at 5:09 pm

            Storms is not a “village idiot”. He is quite intelligent and well trained. Unlike Rothwell, he views a lot of the ridiculous claims made on the Vortex email list critically. He understands nuclear physics. He know how to perform proper calorimetry.

            Unfortunately, he wants cold fusion to be real so badly that he has been taken in by Rossi. That is very unfortunate and I have no idea how it happened. Maybe someday I’ll ask him after Rossi’s nature become even more crystal clear.

          • JNewman

            July 16, 2013 at 7:57 pm

            It is a mystery why any scientist would express confidence in Rossi when pretty much everything Rossi does is secret. Scientists do not accept scientific results on faith.

          • CuriousChris

            July 17, 2013 at 5:42 pm

            “put up or shut up” That’s what I said. No really I mean that, That’s what I said ;)

  17. Al Potenza Reply

    July 15, 2013 at 7:12 pm

    Hilarious. I was looking for something else and happened to run into this Rossi quote from the Rossi nut cases (usual suspects):

    ” daniel maris on February 11, 2012 at 6:51 pm
    -
    WITHIN ONE YEAR WE WILL START TO SELL OUR E-CATS IN MASS, SO ALL THE SKEPTICS WILL BE ABLE TO BUY ONE AND TEST IT.
    END OF DISCUSSIONS.
    WARM REGARDS,”

    -
    Yup. End of discussions, hey, Mr. Rossi. Where are all those mass ecats please? Where can I buy one and test it? A year elasped six months ago! WHERE IS MY ECAT? Why don’t you give it to me?

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/billionaire-sidney-kimmel-to-donate-5-5-to-fund-university-of-missouri-cold-fusion-research/

    (scroll down the comments)

    • Jordi Heguilor Reply

      July 15, 2013 at 7:58 pm

      What I found most interesting in the comments was that at that time one could call Rossi a fraud, and not be censored.

      Now, through the magic of censorship, Ackland has turned ecw into a “reverse Lake Woebegon”.

      All posters there are below average.

    • Deleo77 Reply

      July 15, 2013 at 8:57 pm

      Yeah, it does sound like no major demo at NI is likely for Defkalion. I did see the post below on Vortex. It sounds like they will be doing a live demo on the internet a week from today for ICCF. I guess we will just have to see. But they have to do something beyond Rossi’s public demo in 2011.

      Akira Shirakawa Mon, 15 Jul 2013 07:16:12 -0700

      On 2013-07-15 16:01, DJ Cravens wrote:
      I asked Defkalion directly and got a “non committal” reply- neither
      confirming or denying.
      “We do not disclose what we will present in NI Week and ICCF-18. ”

      This is unconfirmed news, but it seems there will be a Defkalion GT demo in Milan, Italy on July 22nd which will be live streamed on the internet and during ICCF18. Some skeptics, scientists and journalists from the international press have been invited to this demo. More details will be made available in due time.

      Cheers,
      S.A.

      • Al Potenza Reply

        July 15, 2013 at 9:08 pm

        “But they have to do something beyond Rossi’s public demo in 2011. “
        -
        To be convincing, they have to have an independent test with calibrations and blank runs. After all their lying and stupid responses to legitimate questions on their forum, nothing else will be remotely convincing to anyone who is not exceedingly gullible.

        Running on video means little. To be even slightly convincing, the measurement set up would have to be done entirely by third parties using only the reactor itself from Defkalion as a black box. I bet nothing like that will happen. Ever.
        -

        ““We do not disclose what we will present in NI Week and ICCF-18. ”
        -
        Well that’s really stupid. WHY NOT? It’s not like it’s a secret military project. It’s supposed to be a product almost ready for consumer marketing and sales. Of course, that’s been claimed for two years!

        • Luigi Nonsenzo and his X-Ray Chick Reply

          July 15, 2013 at 9:41 pm

          It’s based on Rossi-tech, so naturally they have nothing.

  18. JNewman Reply

    July 16, 2013 at 1:24 am

    Wow, Defkalion again. They are far more amazing than Rossi. After all, Rossi has pitched his tent and performed magic tricks on multiple occasions. Crummy tricks, it is true, but at least he has given the audience something to wonder about. Think about Defkalion: they have never done a damned thing. All we have is their promises and some hearsay from a few people who haven’t actually said anything meaningful other than that they think Defkalion is for real. And yet many – probably most – Rossi believers also believe in Defkalion. Why? I guess the answer is: in for a penny, in for a pound.

    • Shane D. Reply

      July 16, 2013 at 1:34 am

      Good to see you are coming around to Rossi.

      DGT… Well I tend to agree. As of yet they have produced a few pictures, one decent demo, and until Al came along, they actually had a good forum. Time for them to do something or get off the pot.

      • JNewman Reply

        July 16, 2013 at 1:50 am

        I am coming around to Rossi? Right. I guess it is some measure of respect to say that he is a fraud who at least puts on a show rather than one who does nothing at all. Kind of like saying a 737 crash is better than a 747 crash because fewer people get killed. True but sadly unsatisfying.

      • RonB Reply

        July 16, 2013 at 3:12 am

        lol

        )

      • Deleo77 Reply

        July 16, 2013 at 5:24 am

        Ha, well at least we know where Defkalion is. Rossi could be writing his blog posts from a hut in Bali with wifi at this point. Lol.

        Defkalion Green Technologies
        Main Corporate Office:
        1140 Homer Street, BC, V6B 2X6,
        Vancouver, Canada
        Phone : +1 604 683 5555

        Email: info@defkalion-energy.com

        • Jami Reply

          July 16, 2013 at 12:28 pm

          And there was that Mr. Nelson from NASA (yes NASA!!!! take that) who came away very impressed from a private DGT seance. I mean – there is no way they could fool this guy. He is on record for “testing” perpetual motion machines as a hobby but insists he doesn’t waste his time on machines that, quote, “do not work”. So – a hard-core skeptic if ever you saw one…

          • Al Potenza

            July 16, 2013 at 5:06 pm

            LOL

          • Deleo77

            July 16, 2013 at 10:34 pm

            From Vortex, they confirmed the streaming for next week. Why in their right mind would DGT mention that a person from CICAP will be there? Perhaps they will field a couple of questions on UFO’s, and alien abductions at the streaming event…

            CICAP .. “*CICAP, the Italian Committee for the Investigation of Claims on
            the Paranormal,* promotes a scientific and critical enquiry of supposed
            paranormal and mysterious phenomena”
            Harry

            Officially confirmed.

            Roberta De Carolis (Tuesday, 16 July 2013 12:28).
            The CEO of Defkalion Europe Franco Cappiello wrote to us:
            “There will be an official announcement of this technology during ICCF 18
            (International Conference Cold Fusion 18) at the University of Missouri
            (USA). For those interested you can see this webcast of all phases of the
            experiment , ignition, performance and switching off. Two independent
            scientists and two science journalists at international level will
            participate in this broadcast, as well as a member of the Cicap. ”

            http://www.nextme.it/scienza/energia/6016-fusione-fredda-e-cat-defkalion-annuncio-fine-luglio

          • Jami

            July 17, 2013 at 7:07 am

            “CICAP, the Italian Committee for the Investigation of Claims on the Paranormal”

            Maybe the involvement of people like Essen or Kullander makes one forget from time to time that this is essentially a pretty low class free energy scam and as such it primarily feeds on PESN readers, Feng Shui believers and other esoteric, pseudo-religious nutcases who already spent a small fortune on magic Tesla pyramids and fathered all their children at full moon. Most of them probably suspect that Rossi got his e-cat blueprints from crop circles anyway and to them a CIPAP representative adds credibility to the show rather than spoiling it.

          • Dale G. Basgall

            July 17, 2013 at 4:22 pm

            Jami; I read your post on the crop circle stuff and I opened my e-mail and one of my GF’s had sent me this and it went right with your last post on the 17th.

            http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2013/Cavallo/articles.html

          • Al Potenza

            July 17, 2013 at 10:34 pm

            It is a nice idea to have a technical expert who is capable both as an engineer *and* as a stage magician, present for demonstrations. With Defkalion, we are pretty much beyond that. Nothing short of a truly independent test where they are only involved in supplying the device to test, will do. They’re such proven total, categorical, and stupendous liars (see the remains of their forum if you can find it on the wayback machine)… that anything short of independent testing is ridiculous.

          • Deleo77

            July 18, 2013 at 4:51 am

            Well, the word is that the DGT demo will take place in both Vancouver and Milan. Both will be live streamed and there will be reporters and scientists present at both demos. Let’s say both shows are a scam. We would then need to believe that multiple people are in on it, and they would have to be confident that the hoax could get past the people watching in person in both places, and everyone watching on-line. We have to wait to see what they end up showing. The whole thing could get canceled at the last minute and I wouldn’t be surprised.

            I know, this isn’t an independent test, but it may be something worth talking about (I know, nothing other than an independent test is worth talking about).

          • ts

            July 18, 2013 at 6:02 am

            All you really need to know about LENR/cold fusion/free energy, or whatever you want to call it, is in the link below.

            http://energycatalyzer3.com/news/rossi-reveals-details-of-new-factory-team-and-hot-ecat

            In this, an ecat person admits that the 1 MW plant did not work. Why did it take two years to admit this? Why not admit it two days, two weeks, or two months at most after the act? It comes across that this deception was done to make people think that it worked so they would be more likely to invest in it. Or perhaps this deception was done to keep people signing up on the pre-order list.

            Also, why was there a signed document or test report which seemed to claim the 1mw plant worked when the ecat people now admit it didn’t? Also, why was a webpage set up to sell 1mw plants when , according to the ecat person in the article above, the one demoed late 2011 did not work?

            Also, why did the ecat people make a bunch of claims and post a bunch of blog entries that the test was a “success”, when they now say that it wasn’t?

            At least now we might have an idea why the AP reporter who attended the 1Mw plant “demo” never bothered to report on it. It took two years to admit it, but, apparently, there was nothing to report.

          • Al Potenza

            July 18, 2013 at 6:34 pm

            “Let’s say both shows are a scam. We would then need to believe that multiple people are in on it, and they would have to be confident that the hoax could get past the people watching in person in both places, and everyone watching on-line.”
            -
            We only need to believe that Defkalion is hoaxing. There does not need to be a wide conspiracy. Only some deceived people.

            That’s not a bit difficult to believe. Unless you never saw Defkalion’s idiotic and sarcastic responses and widespread censoring on their old forum which they since deleted.

            Could a hoax get by observers? Of course! It happens all the time in high tech hoaxes. History is filled with examples.

            If Defkalion wanted respect, they would hand a reactor with input and output lines and nothing else to a national lab such as Sandia or a university department,such as the physics department at UCLA. And then the device would be tested by measuring input and output for a long period of time using the testers’ gear entirely. Until that happens, Defkalion has to be considered a hoax. Like Rossi.

            @ts

            Thanks, good stuff. Rossi lies consistently. It’s the only thing he does consistently.

          • Jordi Heguilor

            July 18, 2013 at 8:07 pm

            Darned, Al, if you insist in independent confirmation we would NEVER get the LENR show on the road…

          • RonB

            July 19, 2013 at 6:44 pm

            If Defkalion wanted respect, they would hand a reactor with input and output lines and nothing else to a national lab such as Sandia or a university department

            If DGT wanted to lose control over their intellectual property they would hand over a reactor to Sandia labs or a university department where it could be analyzed in such detail that its secrets are revealed.

          • RonB

            July 19, 2013 at 6:47 pm

            In this, an ecat person admits that the 1 MW plant did not work. Why did it take two years to admit this?

            If I remember correctly the 1MW plant was not working properly during the test. Several of the modules had failed and the entire unit had to be ran at half power. It was no secret.

  19. arian558 Reply

    July 16, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    Look like hydrinos has been confirmed by scientists but no one noticed.

    Ultra-dense rydberg matter of deuterium a million times more dense than frozen deuterium

    http://www.science.gu.se/english/News/News_detail?contentId=879280

    http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/05/university-of-gothenberg-making.html

    And here is a paper that try explain experimental result this quotes from
    paper is interesting

    “The superdense phase is formed in pores with Fe2O3 acting as a catalyst”

    “If as reported the state of ultradense deuterium exists, and if it is sufficiently stable to exist long enough, it could become for the release of nuclear energy as important as was the discovery of nuclear fission by Hahn and Strassmann. It is the purpose of this note that on purely theoretical grounds an ultradense state of deuterium cannot be easily dismissed. ”

    http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0912/0912.5414.pdf

  20. CWatters Reply

    July 18, 2013 at 10:14 pm

    Questions for Bo Höistad….

    One of the photos of the power meter appears odd…

    http://i39.tinypic.com/dnn8k0.jpg

    Why is the power factor negative? That normally only happens when the load is back driving the source?

    Why is the mains frequency apparently only 5.3 Hz ?

    Were the current sensors (clamp type) applied to wires provided by Mr Rossi or yourself? If they were supplied my Mr Rossi were they examined to ensure they were single core wire?

    • R Hopeful Reply

      July 18, 2013 at 10:55 pm

      Where does this photo come from? The report shows a different -unreadable- photo of the device.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      July 19, 2013 at 5:05 pm

      I am not sure but I think it’s from the Penon report which was signed off by Rossi. The image first appeared and then was removed/deleted/redacted. Someone on Vortex (IIRC) recovered it from a cache.

      It suggests that one phase was tampered with. Perhaps the tampering was incomplete or imperfect when the image was taken.

      • Jami Reply

        July 19, 2013 at 5:55 pm

        No. The picture is from borderlands newsletter. http://www.borderlands.de/net_pdf/NET0113S13-15.pdf

        It was supposedly taken during a visit of a Swiss investor group when the first Levi et al test was running (date on the watch in the foto). Needless to say that neither Levi nor anybody else commented on the weird readout although they must have seen it.

        • R Hopeful Reply

          July 19, 2013 at 7:29 pm

          This is the manual for the PCE-830 (I could not find it in English)
          The suspicious photo was taken while the instrument was set up to analyze a 3-phase, 3-wire, circuit while the test was carried out with a 3-phase, 4-wire circuit. The photo in the official report shows the device set for 3-phase, 4-wire measurements.
          The simplest reason for the discrepancy is that the test was not properly set up yet. I don’t know the exact dates and times when the test was carried out.
          It is a legitimate question for the experimenters, though. Their video feed would show that the analyzer was not tampered with.

          • Jami

            July 19, 2013 at 9:06 pm

            The date shown is December 14, 5:45PM. So it was well into the first day of the test which started Dec. 13.

          • R Hopeful

            July 19, 2013 at 9:57 pm

            The report implies that during the December test the power was measured on the input wires to the resistor. They set the instrument for 3-phase, 3-wire input, but it is not designed to analyze the modulated power.
            The March test is much more straightforward because it measures the input to the control box, which is what the instrument is supposed to do. Hoistad witnessed the March test.
            Still it looks like they were improving the experimental setup as they learned.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          July 19, 2013 at 8:48 pm

          Thanks for the correction, Jami. I found the image in the Vortex email list, originally.

  21. Al Potenza Reply

    July 19, 2013 at 5:03 pm

    In case anyone forgot, here is Mats Lewan’s report on Defkalion and Rossi in June of 2011.

    http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3194216.ece

    Among other claims:

    “The company stated that it is planning two factories, one of which should already be set up in the city of Xanthi, with a prospective total capacity of 300,000 ‘E-cat’ units per year. Production start is planned for 2012 with a volume of about 40,000 units the first year.

    The production units are supposedly aimed towards households and businesses, to be used for heating, cooling and power generation. No official information on pricing or specifications are yet available.

    Defkalion estimates 125 employees at the plant in Xanthi and a total of 200 employees within the company in 2012.”

    LOL.

    Much more interesting vapor in that silly article.

    • RonB Reply

      July 19, 2013 at 6:37 pm

      The company stated that it is planning two factories

      Not sure what your point is.

      “Best laid plans of mice and men”

      • Al Potenza Reply

        July 19, 2013 at 8:47 pm

        ” one of which should already be set up in the city of Xanthi,”

        My point, RonB, is they lie. They have lied in the past. The lie all the time. They are liars. How would we know when and if they tell the truth? Like Rossi, Defkalion are not to be trusted in any way.

        • RonB Reply

          July 20, 2013 at 12:42 am

          We’re talking about plans. Plans that don’t come to pass are not usually considered as lies. Not to say that everything they say as facts are known to be true.

    • Dale G. Basgall Reply

      July 19, 2013 at 7:21 pm

      Al that’s just hype from Defkalion and when they stated that I went -let’s see- for every employee that is in the manufacturing process on the assembly line assuming all are pitching in (125) which is highly unlikely due to the normal percentages within the manufacturing plant.

      Even if 100 employees were manufacturing that would be low ball @ 40,000 e-cat’s within 300 work days. Each assembler would need to put together at minimum of 1.3 completed e-cats per day.

      I think those were designed off the plumbers handbag setting in the corner of Rossi’s first video.

      None of the claims in the line of the manufacturing of the products Hyperion and E-Cat made any logical sense, mostly whimsical at best.

      • Dale G. Basgall Reply

        July 19, 2013 at 7:32 pm

        That’s not the post I had edited however the undefined just appeared, it’s my post.

        Should read Hyperion/E-Cat’s and not just e-cat, I believe Mr. Rossi made more spectacular numbers for his manufacturing plant production.

    • Shane D. Reply

      July 19, 2013 at 8:50 pm

      It is customary from that part of the world to exaggerate. It is also considered rude to comment when they do.

      • Jami Reply

        July 19, 2013 at 9:15 pm

        Is it? A conclusive explanation for Italy’s leading role in LENR research – at last.

        • RonB Reply

          July 20, 2013 at 12:44 am

          LOL

    • dsm Reply

      July 20, 2013 at 2:47 am

      Al yours is one interpretation of that story. And, IMHO a very false interpretation.

      DGT made it quite clear that they expected to license the manufacture of eCat cores at one factory and Hyperion commercial units (using those eCat cores) at another factory. IIRC that was a requirement of the deal with Rossi.

      As it turned out Rossi could not deliver a working eCat core & the deal collapsed.

      This is quite a different slant on the information.

      DSM

      • CuriousChris Reply

        July 20, 2013 at 5:51 am

        When the deal fell through with Rossi, DGT claimed to have replaced it almost immediately with their own working and tested core (black magic apparently). So their plans should have stayed on target or only have been slightly amended.

        • dsm Reply

          July 21, 2013 at 1:41 am

          ‘should’ ?

          According to who ?
          .
          (THE FOLLOWING IS OPINION ONLY & TO BE READ THAT WAY).

          However you look at it DGT got caught between a rock and a hard place …
          .
          - They were invited by Prof Stremmenos & with Greek Govt intermediaries to build a new energy business using eCat cores
          .
          - They did an evaluation of the eCat shown to them by Rossi and concluded it did what was claimed (no point in us debating the usefulness of that eval – we weren’t there)
          .
          - They designed their Hyperion and kept asking for the specs & a prototype of the eCat cores – Rossi never responded
          .
          - DGT concluded that while the eCat they evaluated did deliver anomalous heat, that apparently Rossi could not control his devices nor did he know how to get them under control. Rossi kept trying to involve large orgs who he hoped could solve his problems but none were willing to engage with him (not a good enough deal & him too ‘flaky’). Rossi kept hiding his inabilities under grander & greater claims
          .
          - DGT investigated & realized Rossi merely copied Piantelli’s patent so they did their own investigation and determined they should shut down their business but the CTO asked for 6 months to see if he could develop their own core. He got it
          .
          - The downside at this time was Rossi’s mouth and Rossi got very angry when DGT would not buy is failed 1 Mw plant (that was built for DGT not anyone else ! Rossi invented the hidden military customer to hide the failure) and also that they wouldn’t pay him the 1st major contractual payment – they say they didn’t because Rossi failed to show them a working core unit they could use
          .
          Then a war of words erupted & after a few months DGT realized it was a no-win and simply shut-up. The smartest thing they could do but the rabid among us still attack them for doing that

          .
          By this time anything they did was going to attract wild & wide (and rabid) reactions (as proven in this forum esp the next threat Frank started. Just look at all the ‘wild’ claims about what DGT will & won’t do at ICCF-18 how come we have so many ‘experts’ who can claim it is real or false and add all the emotional hype so many among us are doing (Al/Mary in particular). They are simply speculating to satisfy their own needs & they are unrelated to what DGT will or won’t do.)

          .
          DSM

  22. Jami Reply

    July 19, 2013 at 9:26 pm

    This is nothing short of sensational:

    Rossi is banning himself from JONP!!!

    ————————

    Andrea Rossi
    July 19th, 2013 at 2:53 PM

    Gianfranco:
    This is the blog of the Journal Of Nuclear Physics, and all the comments regarding the papers and the Authors published on the JoNP are welcome. There is no reason to make separate sections, the Readers read what they prefer and send the comments they want. All the comments are published, so far they do not contain insults or stupidities, or statements that are false at first sight.
    Warm Regards,
    Andrea Rossi, on behalf of JoNP

    • JKW Reply

      July 20, 2013 at 1:12 pm

      Good one! :D

  23. Deleo77 Reply

    July 19, 2013 at 10:30 pm

    Here is the schedule with the Defkalion demonstration on Tuesday morning, and a question and answer session in the afternoon. I know what the one question of every skeptic here would be:

    Why don’t you hand over your reactor to an independent third party test organization?

    Maybe someone will ask them that at the conference.

    http://iccf18.research.missouri.edu/program.php

    • Al Potenza Reply

      July 19, 2013 at 10:59 pm

      “Why don’t you hand over your reactor to an independent third party test organization?”

      I know the answer already. Because the US won’t grant patents on cold fusion inventions. We want to protect our IP.

      Of course this is completely wrong in all aspects but that won’t stop them from saying it.

      I predict the questions will be overly polite and no acceptable answers will be given to any important ones. In past experience, Hadjichristos and others from Defkalion, could not give a straight, simple answer if someone gave them cue cards.

    • Shane D. Reply

      July 19, 2013 at 11:34 pm

      Deleo,

      There is some speculation as to whether the DGT presentation at the ICCF will be via live feed from elsewhere, or physically there at the UOM.

      I’m guessing the live feed -as DGT has stated in the past that it takes 4 days to set-up a demo outside their labs.

      The difficulty comes, they said, in laying the secret input lines….

      OK, that last sentence was a joke.

      • RonB Reply

        July 20, 2013 at 12:46 am

        noooo it was getting the IR transmitter aligned properly

      • Deleo77 Reply

        July 20, 2013 at 12:49 am

        Well it is kind of funny to think that the DGT guys are practicing their hoax this weekend and making sure the secret wires and magic tricks, whatever they might be, will all go un-noticed and work as planned. But there are plenty of posters here who would say that is exactly what is happening this weekend. So let the magic show commence I guess.

  24. Tony2 Reply

    July 20, 2013 at 1:06 am

    Why don’t we have a brand thread since DGT is going to change the world this Monday?

    Tony2

  25. Cimpy Reply

    April 14, 2014 at 2:18 pm

    Hi.
    April, 2014, by now, and we are here again hearing rumors on thirdy part report again.

    Guess what? No report can convince skeptics unless is done by skeptics themselves. Or Rossi’s E-Cat could have been truly on the marked (it was “soon” around 2010-2011).

    A pity none of the two happened – at least till now. Anyone would like to put an year as a final goal to state if there is a real phenomena or if it is simply another scam like the Steorn one?

    By the way, half of discussions are here aorund (look at comments).

    Oh yes: I am clearly from CERN, as MaxS supposed one year ago…

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