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The LieCat

November 2, 2012

October is dead, taking with it any hope I had that Andrea Rossi would deliver on yet another claim. For some time now, it has been obvious to most that Rossi cannot be trusted. Even his supporters admit he lies as they excuse him for one reason or another. In business, gaining such a reputation can be damaging but not always fatal. If you are new to this saga, I urge you to sample eCatNews archives. This accusatory post does not come from a pseudo-sceptic but from someone who has spent countless hours for the best part of two years living in hope of an eCat breakthrough. Despite some discomfort, I allowed all sides of the argument to air in an attempt to immunise myself and other readers from our own ignorance. Even so, and despite a constant plea for caution, I retained a small measure of hope that the gathering signs were wrong. I can no longer ignore the fact that Andrea Rossi is acting like a fraudster.

I have no idea if he is conducting a criminal enterprise but he is certainly performing a good impression of doing so. Since I remain hopeful about LENR as a whole, I give small measure to the dream that he has something less than he claims but still interesting. I would not bank on that but dream anyway. Each time some deadline approaches, he changes tack, often making ever-increasing outlandish claims that have become tiringly predictable. The man is a liar and if you give him money on the strength of his word you are more trusting than me. I value trust more than money. Some people value money above everything. If you are more trusting than me, then you are a saint. Over the life of eCatNews, I conducted an experiment in honesty, abandoning 10,000 copies of my novel on the streets, remote paths, mountain tops, park benches, bus stops and hundreds of other locations around Scotland. Over 800 strangers found and then jumped through hoops to pay for their copy. I would trust any of them but I would not trust Rossi.

We are led to believe that five years ago he was heating his factory in Italy with a multi-kW eCat, implying a robust, safe and commercially viable product. Two years ago, he told us that he had a secret customer and was under an NDA preventing him from revealing who it was. In October last year, another secret customer bought the 1MW plant. At various stages we have been told about up to 13 1MW plants and given assurances that he would soon reveal all. This is almost exactly what he said in 2010. The million-unit factory appears to have been forgotten and recently we were told that the University of Bologna would conduct and publish the results of independent tests in mid-October. While it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that such a test has now happened, I put my new belief in his inability to tell the truth above the remote possibility that he will deliver on that or any other promise of substance.

To the hard sceptics – you were right. To the pseudosceps – I am no longer confident in that label although you still puzzle me. Proclaimed certainty in an uncertain sphere puzzles me. While I have come to side with your view of Rossi and Defkalion, I am far from convinced when anyone rules with absolute confidence against LENR. To my fellow bloggers, we do our readers a disservice if we do not continue to examine our own prejudices and be as ready to change our views as we urge the deniers to do. Many people scoff at the power of these blogs but they are wrong. It is all too easy to become a useful idiot to one side or the other. Real people get hurt. Stand back, look at your history – what you got right and what you got wrong – and learn from it.

I really do hope that my conclusions are in error. If so, I will gladly apologise. The world needs a miracle more than anyone’s misplaced pride. Until then, if you have given this man money, it is time to push him hard. Do not give him anything unless any promise he makes is accompanied by hard evidence. The first people to prod Madoff got their money back before it all collapsed. You have been warned.

Posted by on November 2, 2012. Filed under Media & Blogs,Rossi,Tests & Demos. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

948 Responses to The LieCat

  1. daniel maris

    November 12, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    Any views on the MFMP live experiment yet? Sadly, I can’t access the lab data. But from their blog comment, it seems to be going according to plan so far.

    • RonB

      November 12, 2012 at 7:44 pm

      I’ve been following it too. I’m not sure if they think that the resistance change is something that’s extraordinary but it is a known attribute of a transition metal soaked in hydrogen.

      So, I think they monitor the volts and current and from that they get a power in watts. The watts are measured indirectly by the temperature of the glass. I suppose they are looking for a linear response to changes in the voltage and current as the resistance changes and when that response is non-linear or is larger than what they got from the calibration then they can claim an anomaly.

      Is that about right??

      • daniel maris

        November 12, 2012 at 9:10 pm

        They appear not to have got any excess heat yet. I don’t know whether that is significant or not. They’ve been going for about 6 hours haven’t they?

        • RonB

          November 12, 2012 at 9:26 pm

          Yes, I think about 6 hours but only have been near the temp that effects start to happen for a bit. I think they need to dwell at the 100-200c range for a few hours before they’ll see results.I suspect that they will see some heat gain in the next couple of hours.

          • Methusela

            November 12, 2012 at 10:03 pm

            They’re stepping the input power slowly to get to 270 degC where celani observed the effect.

          • RonB

            November 12, 2012 at 10:49 pm

            I guess they’re not too worried about gamma rays, It’s too bad they don’t have a cloud chamber near by.

            Did you see that Al is helping out with advice! That’s just excellent! : )

          • Robert Munson

            November 13, 2012 at 12:59 am

            Finally Al is contributing in a positive way!

          • NJT

            November 13, 2012 at 1:17 am

            Yes, Al has a lot to offer here and I am glad to see him participating with his expertise in this experiment.

            These folks are following a very open ‘scientific process’ which I am sure that Al respects. We will see what results…

      • JKW

        November 13, 2012 at 1:25 am

        It’s about right, I think. If their input power source is AC they should add a small induction coil to shift phase and get overunity.
        But seriously, having a spot temperature reading as a function of the output power of the device is the main flaw of the experiment. They measure internal temperature at a selected spot in the device and correlate it to the output heat flux generated by the contraption. There are many factors that are not taken into account with this approach, e.g. the small changes in interior geometry between the calibration configuration and the active (Celani) wire configuration, affecting internal convection patterns between the heat source and the glass cylinder. Or the effect of Celani wire possibly releasing chemicals, that affect the composition of the interior atmosphere,, and thus change its heat transfer properties, or even affect chemical structure of the glass cylinder.
        These nuances would be irrelevant at kilowatt power gains claimed by Rossi, but this is what distinguishes him and other scammers from people that do well intended, but sloppy and flawed research.
        Going back to PFPM – why don’t they just immerse the gizmo in a thermally insulated bucket of water and measure the rise of water temperature as a function of energy input?
        And Meth, I will not share these thoughts with the geeks at, cause I don’t have time. Life is short and there are more useful things to do. I am working on opening a keg of a dodgy imported beer right now. Funny how the thread is messed up. You think you loosen it but it gets tighter. Must be from one of the countries where they drive on the wrong side of the street.

        • RonB

          November 13, 2012 at 5:06 am

          why don’t they just immerse the gizmo in a thermally insulated bucket of water and measure the rise of water temperature as a function of energy input?

          I can only speculate why but I think it might be because the little wire inside can’t provide that many watts to heat it up to the critical temp if it’s in water. Right now they’re having problems getting it up to temp in free air.

          • JKW

            November 13, 2012 at 5:59 am

            OK. How about this. Let’s preheat the water in the bucket to surpass the critical temperature of the reaction, or, if it’s to high for water, replace water with oil, mercury, lead, tungsten or whatever. As long as we know the specific heat of the liquid, preferably a liquid that maintains constant specific heat over a range of temperatures to simplify the equation, the thermal equilibrium equations are elementary.
            Assuming quasistatic equilibrium, of course.

          • JKW

            November 13, 2012 at 6:10 am

            I just realized… I got so carried away. Liquid tungsten might obliterate the device… Anyway, you get the general idea, right, Ron?

  2. Jordi Heguilor

    November 13, 2012 at 1:07 am

    The good news is that, if Rossi is taking money for his products, within a year we will know if it’s a scam.

    He can bullshit for years about reports and such, but people who have given him money will not accept endless excuses.

    • Al Potenza

      November 13, 2012 at 1:36 am

      Rossi has never but NEVER named a customer. He is not taking money for products because he has no products. He takes money from investors and/or distributors. Same with Defkalion. If either tried to sell a reactor, they’d be toast as soon as they either delivered one, or went way past the promised delivery date. Investment scams go on for years and years. Steorn is on year 6 now if I am counting right. Blacklight Power is going on 20 years as is Mark Goldes. All without a thing to show for all the money they took and made disappear without a trace.

      • Robert Munson

        November 13, 2012 at 3:23 am

        The same BS is getting old Al lets concentrate on something we don’t already know. Or is that not possible??

        • JKW

          November 13, 2012 at 3:52 am

          Nope. Same old stuff reheated since ’89. Just a bunch of fresh guys with another silly contraption with wires dangling out of it.

          • JKW

            November 13, 2012 at 4:14 am

            To make it clear, it is my opinion, not Al’s. And to it make clear for folks ready to make insinuations, I am not Al and would not want to be. I respect his opinions, and value his expertise, but he’s so proper and serious about the subject as if it bore a meaning in life. Reminds me of my Sunday class teacher from the monastery…

      • Al Potenza

        November 13, 2012 at 6:22 pm

        For the record, Rothwell is right about one thing (amazingly enough). And that is that hundreds of researchers report extra heat, neutrons, and transmutations in thousands of experiments. Can it all be experimental error? Yes it can. But it might not be. Even if the findings are real, they might not represent any sort of fusion and they might not be useful but it’s all an open question. Not everybody who worked on this stuff is a flake or a crook but an amazing number of the current crop do show some sign of either characteristic. Some like Brillouin and Nanospire, seem to be both flakes and crooks! Just my opinion of course. And Defkalion and Rossi seem, of course, like simply crooks.

        Anyway, Celani, who is sweetly flaky but seems completely honest, has a nice simple open system which is very easy to investigate. Some ambitious and reasonably capable young people seem to have decided to test it thoroughly and in the open. That’s commendable. I only regret that they don’t seem to have enough talent in heat transfer and fluid flow physics/engineering. It’s hard to be self taught in that field but I suppose it’s possible. Still, their idea of calorimetry thus far is pretty primitive.

        I have no idea whether or not they will find something but it would be fun if they did.

        • Alain

          November 14, 2012 at 2:15 pm

          mixing nanospire and brillouin in the same bucket is showing that you don’t understand the situation.

          nanospire is not LENR, and clearly behave like a crackpot.

          Brillouin behave like a startup, spinoff of SRI.

  3. daniel maris

    November 13, 2012 at 9:07 am

    The MFMP folk are claiming excess heat of 2-3 Watts. That’s how they express it – don’t blame me. I would have expected that to be expressed in relation to input in WHs or some such.

    • Methusela

      November 13, 2012 at 9:10 am

      They are not ‘claiming excess heat’ at this stage, the results are inconclusive.

      • Alain

        November 13, 2012 at 9:40 am

        they think that it is not hot enough, but they are afraid to destroy the wire… they will change the pressure…
        realtime science is slow.

    • ts

      November 13, 2012 at 11:01 am

      2 to 3 watts of excess is good news, if this is the case. Now, they can ship this to NREL and have NREL retest it and certify the results and we will know, once and for all that low power LENR works.

      • RonB

        November 13, 2012 at 11:48 am

        Hopefully if they get the wire temp up a bit more then they can present unambiguous evidence of excess heat. Like Celani has done.

        • buffalo

          November 13, 2012 at 3:01 pm

          3 or 6 watts ‘excess’heat is simply not gona cut it folks.they must get at least ten then it becomes a tangent of must be able to put ones hand on the reactor and literaly feel the difference.

          • RonB

            November 13, 2012 at 3:18 pm

            lol Trust me… at over 200C I don’t think it’s a good idea to touch it!

            I don’t think the show is over folks!

            The nickel is undergoing a transformation at this time. It happens with all transition metals and especially with Ni/Pd. It happens faster at a higher temperature and differently as a function of temperature.

          • JKW

            November 13, 2012 at 5:11 pm

            Transformation? I thought the whole shebang is about transmutation.

          • RonB

            November 13, 2012 at 8:02 pm

            Perhaps they will have that too but the transformation I’m talking about is just a physical one of the metal such as when tree sap transforms into amber or coal into diamonds.

      • Al Potenza

        November 13, 2012 at 4:42 pm

        “Now, they can ship this to NREL and have NREL retest it and certify the results and we will know, once and for all that low power LENR works.”

        Small, lower power tests are extremely error prone. Finding a few watts of excess power is a first step.

        They need two changes in the experiment after that. The first is to use more Celani wires in parallel to increase the “signal to noise” ratio. The second is to use some sort of very conventional calorimetry to measure the heat output. In addition, their method of running blanks and the calibration of the system must be accurate without a fault and proven rigorously. If they can do all that and get appreciable output (say 10 – 20 watts excess power) with a decent COP ratio (power out to power in more than say maybe 3) then they have something.

        Until then, they are still in limbo. Let’s hope they can do it.

  4. Dale G. Basgall

    November 13, 2012 at 3:51 pm

    The replication of the “Celani” calimed method would be a success if any “extra” energy was observed for more than 10 times with the same parameters used for all observed.

    I am sure they are well aware of the possibility they may not have results on this trial that would indicate the process was producing LENR.

    This is the type of science and the timing could not be more right than today, to pull this generally labled science LENR into a successful product helping people survive the cold weather.

    If you read the headlines though in current events like the General and the CIA person of the US getting ousted cause of an affair, Texas and alot of States in the US are filing petitions to be removed from the Union and so on.

    Now with a general mentality like what is exhibited on the news mainstream how does anyone here think that the discovery of LENR could possibly be used for the good of many, go figure!

    Bottom line is we need to continue on the LENR path even if no one has gotten repeated results that would allow a machine to be built tomorrow. Today we need to continue on knowing LENR is not an if thing, it’s a true factual evolutionary science that will be developed as soon as our heads work together towards that goal.

    In the view of a higher conciousness on the emisions within our airspace (news media)today do you actually feel we are ready for somethig like a new discovery? If any one of you had LENR for sure and the formula would you actually give it up for a civilization that fights together like us? You would be killed immediately by those who could.

    • Bigwilly

      November 13, 2012 at 4:28 pm

      Hey Dale,

      “Texas and alot of States in the US are filing petitions to be removed from the Union and so on.”

      Can you provide a source for this information?


      • Dale G. Basgall

        November 13, 2012 at 5:24 pm

        It is on MSN news, and in other media, I will need to go back and get the articles.

        • dsm

          November 13, 2012 at 8:18 pm

          Interesting proposition in regard to Texas.
          IIRC Texas is *the only* state in the union that has the right to seceded from the union. But, I’ll bet a big Texas steak that there would not be enough signatures to achieve it in my lifetime.
          But again, too many more ‘immigrants’ successfully make it across the border & that may change.

    • Al Potenza

      November 13, 2012 at 4:43 pm

      Wow Dale! That’s a new accomplishment in not making sense!

      • Dale G. Basgall

        November 13, 2012 at 5:33 pm

        Al it simply boils down to don’t expect results on the first few attempts, so I wanted to relay that here so people don’t get upset or lose faith when nothing is apparently happening.

        In addition if there were a higher intelligence like what we think of as a GOD or powerful something that could take or make our lives, do you think after viewing the way people treat each other those creators would actually do anything but incinerate the cancer like for instance your remarks.

        Instead of being humble you attempt to create dillusion in others and kill hope.

        So you are who you are Al, try to understand everyone has a right to live and believe how they want and it’s not your duty in life to break those hopes of others just because you can, that’s all.

        I hope now you understand a little better, my post.

  5. Al Potenza

    November 13, 2012 at 4:45 pm

    “Robert Munson
    November 13, 2012 at 3:23 am

    The same BS is getting old Al lets concentrate on something we don’t already know. Or is that not possible??”

    The BS that really gets old is Rossi’s and Defkalion’s and the people who still believe them. As long as they keep restating that nonsense, I will keep responding to it. If that annoys you, try citing evidence instead of just blubbering like a little, demented Elmer Fudd character.

    • Methusela

      November 13, 2012 at 5:15 pm

      Hey, I thought you and Newman had decided that I was Elmer Fudd?

      There can be only one.

      [ cue strange image of several Fudd’s dueling a la ‘Highlander’ ]

      FUDd dueling – sound like something you and Newman would partake in.

    • Robert Munson

      November 14, 2012 at 4:09 am

      Hey, A-hole… I mean Al stop talking about Rossi and DKG for god sake. Last I checked no one on this site was espousing any belief in those entities. But you carry on like an amature drunk just can’t leave it alone. Cancel your domestic ecat order. And move on you Tasmanian devil.

      • JNewman

        November 14, 2012 at 1:35 pm

        No one espouses belief in those entities? Perhaps no one espouses great confidence any longer but Alain, Harry, Francesco, GreenWin, Daniel, LCD and a few others are still pretty positive about them. I’m not sure what Meth believes other than in insulting people. This doesn’t even mention a bunch of other folks who seldom post here anymore because they prefer the fantasyland over at ECW. The last I checked, this is still ecatnews, so it seems a bit testy to chide people for mentioning the ecat here.

      • John Milstone

        November 14, 2012 at 7:13 pm

        Robert, you sound bitter.

        It must be galling to realize that you’ve been believing a con man all this time.

        But that’s no reason to take it out on those who were smart enough to recognize a scam when they see one.

      • John Milstone

        November 15, 2012 at 11:13 am

        Robert Munson said:

        I mean Al stop talking about Rossi and DKG for god sake.

        Since the name of this site is, I’d say it’s reasonable to be talking about Rossi.

        The fact that Rossi and DGE are obvious frauds isn’t Al’s fault.

        The fact that anyone is still taking Rossi and DGE seriously is at least partially the fault of “True Believers” like you.

  6. Voodoo

    November 13, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    Another 5-6 months of silence of Rossi team = another extra 1 Trillion USD losses to the world economy because a massive prolonged misallocation of sources of uninformed managements of worldwide businesses. Bravo !

    • Frank

      November 13, 2012 at 6:57 pm

      I guess you refer to that “Rossi says”:
      Andrea Rossi
      November 13th, 2012 at 11:36 AM
      I am receiving many requests of interview in this period, and I am spamming all of them. This comment is the answer for all: I will not release any more interview of any kind until the 1 MW plant for civil use will be presented to the public. This decision has been agreed upon between our new US Partner and the Trust that owns Leonardo Corp. We think any interview in this period is simply useless, because we have nothing to add to what we have already said, while we have an enormous work to do.
      I will continue to answer to the questions put on this blog from the readers of the Journal Of Nuclear Physics, though, because this blog is useful to us: here we learn, many times.
      Warm Regards,

      Wait a moment – isn’t there also the home e-cat?
      Shouldn’t he have said “… until the 1MW plant for civil use will be presented to the public [earliest May 2013]or the home e-cat certificate will be submitted
      Why did he “forget” that ? – The logical answer is: Because he knows very well that there will never be a certificated e-cat.

      • Al Potenza

        November 13, 2012 at 7:47 pm

        There will never be ANY ecat product of ANY type from Rossi. And I’m almost as certain that Defkalion will never issue a product either.

        • Frank

          November 13, 2012 at 7:55 pm

          I cannot disagree 😉

          • Methusela

            November 13, 2012 at 7:59 pm

            No, you can’t.

            More virtual back-slapping.

          • Al Potenza

            November 13, 2012 at 8:14 pm

            I have to admit that I am curious as to what Rossi’s plans for an end game might be. But then again, a lot of scammers are sociopaths and harbor a variety of other mental impairments and many simply expect the scam to continue indefinitely and make no plans to get out. Current best example: Steorn.

          • John Milstone

            November 13, 2012 at 8:23 pm

            I have to admit that I am curious as to what Rossi’s plans for an end game might be.

            I’ve never heard of any investment scammer with an “end game”. They all seem to think that they can keep it going forever.

          • dsm

            November 13, 2012 at 8:52 pm

            Re an end game,
            Why not look to Paul Moller and his never flown Skycar. His Moller web site still has the ringing endorsement of several heads or top execs of NASA (Bushnell, Goldin & others)
            Moller is aged in his 70s & he simply shifted his operations to China where he is still claiming he will build Skycars.
            Even in 2012 Moller was still getting headlines with promises …
            The notion of petrol powered Skycars with 4 engines (one at each corner) is a flawed design and a flawed notion (mostly, but not entirely, from the saftey POV) but the dream & the Moller PR machine made it so compelling that lots of people even some with engineering & aviation expertise wouldn’t consider these flaws as they preferred the dream & Moller’s conviction he would make it work. But he never has & that is despite being at it for 40+ years.
            I tried to provide a link to Moller International website but my antivirus software block it as an identified ‘attack’ site !.
            Will settle for this Wiki link as it appears safe …

          • LCD

            November 13, 2012 at 9:51 pm

            DSM honestly you probably should stop comparing one so called scam to another and start dealing with each case on their own merit.

          • dsm

            November 13, 2012 at 10:06 pm

            Why ?. Surely people here can judge for themselves.
            The key ingredient with Moller & Rossi is harnessing a compelling dream & milking it for as long as possible.
            To me both Moller and Rossi illustrate the principle that if a dream is powerful enough, people will suspend commonsense. In the comments section of the 1st link I provided there was one individual who considered it just a short time before Moller would succeed & that comment (ignoring the technical issues) is very much the same as the ones we see here where people who have suspended commonsense, remain convinced that Rossi despite his constant miss-statements & exaggerations will deliver.
            Aren’t the miracle energy true believers now waiting for end Nov when once again Rossi will ‘reveal all’ like has been repeatedly promised month by month since 2011 !.

      • Thicket

        November 13, 2012 at 8:34 pm

        Translation of what ‘Rossi says’.

        “I’ve had interviews and demonstrations. I’ve suckered in people that are giving me money. Unless you have money to give me, don’t bother asking me for anything. I’ll keep writing in my JONP because its content is totally under my control.”

      • MaxS

        November 14, 2012 at 2:31 pm

        interesting announcement.

        until the 1 MW plant for civil use will be presented to the public.

        sounds like a confirmation of Rossi that all pervious talks about 1MW e-cats for sale already on the market have been lies.
        How otherwise can we interprete the message ?
        It is clear now that no 1MW e-cat is on the market yet.

  7. Harry Perini

    November 13, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    I still have not heard of anyone who lost money to Andrea Rossi.

    • Methusela

      November 13, 2012 at 9:34 pm

      I lost money because of Al Potenza.

      • RonB

        November 13, 2012 at 9:40 pm

        That must be a very interesting story! Please share.

      • Robert Munson

        November 14, 2012 at 4:17 am

        Let me guess, he’s actually a mobster up to his a** in this LENR scam. It’s all coming clear to me now “the reverse A-hole scam”

    • RonB

      November 13, 2012 at 9:35 pm

      Also I’ve never heard any news from the guys that keep bringing up other names about some of them offering their inventions for sale with a money back guarantee.

    • John Milstone

      November 14, 2012 at 7:10 pm

      I still have not heard of anyone who lost money to Andrea Rossi.

      That’s because Rossi lied when he claimed he was going to release the names of his “investors”.

      They have lost their money, they just haven’t realized it yet.

      • Methusela

        November 14, 2012 at 7:12 pm

        I have also lost money because of John Milstone.

        • John Milstone

          November 15, 2012 at 11:04 am

          I have also lost money because of John Milstone.

          If you lost any money, it wasn’t because of me, it was because of your own gullibility.

          • Methusela

            November 15, 2012 at 6:01 pm

            No. I’m continually betting with people that either you or Al couldn’t possibly come out with yet more rubbish.

            But you do!

          • John Milstone

            November 16, 2012 at 10:54 am

            You mean rubbish like “Rossi is a con man”?

            I have trouble believing that you can still find people who would be willing to take the other side of that bet.

    • MaxS

      November 16, 2012 at 11:00 am

      I still have not heard of anyone who lost money to Andrea Rossi.

      well, this is probbaly because in reality nobody has purchased anything because there is no product. If anybody would have purchased and used e-cats we would have seen some user testimonials, but we have not seen anything.
      Licencees have invested money, and are waiting….
      Sooner or later it will clash when Rossi does not deliver.
      The Rossi statement “no more interviews” does not sound there is a 3rd party report anytime soon – according to insiders expected after Nov20, how could Rossi miss the opportunity not to use this for marketing – it rather sounds our inventor has reached the end of the line and is preparing his exit scenario.

  8. B. Habin

    November 13, 2012 at 10:56 pm

    Rossi in “hibernation”-mode now. Remarkable step. Not far away from “shutdown”. Stretching his nearly transparent strudel pastry even more was hardly thinkable.

    Taking into account the situation on the so called “financial markets”, the race between meltdown and an worldchanging concept of cheap energy, in which form whatsoever, was open.
    But i’m afraid that cocain-powdered, geary and complete unconscionable yuppies and banksters will be the “winners”. This might be OT, but just waiting for Rossis resurrection or watching “Celani Cell #1” might be not funny enough during the winter months.

    I would recommend to use the Rossi-free winter months taking a look on this thematic. My no #1 favorite for exampe is
    Hard to read for not so english-fluent people like me, because it is written with an unbelievable deep-black sarcasm, like (for insiders) the author of “Yes, Minister” would publish a financial blog, but one of the main-sources for many other blogs.

    Just an idea..

  9. daniel maris

    November 14, 2012 at 1:09 am

    What’s the view of the MFMP results so far – leaving aside the issue of whether we can rely absolutely on the data in terms of calorimetry: does the data show excess heat?

    I am reading there is excess heat of “2-3 watts” excess heat but I am not sure what that means. Consistently over a 24 hours period?

    Presumably as the excess heat continues into the future, the likelihood of mismeasurement decreases? Do people agree with that?

    • spacegoat

      November 14, 2012 at 8:07 am

      Apparently, according to Celani’s instructions, they are hitting the bare minimum temperature to see an effect. Next they will be run at lower pressure, allowing a higher temperature.

      The effect seen so far is within error bounds, and thus no conclusions can be drawn.

      But great applause is in order for the no-nonsense and open approach of the MFMP experimantalists.

  10. Al Potenza

    November 14, 2012 at 7:04 am

    “Robert Munson Reply

    November 14, 2012 at 4:09 am

    Hey, A-hole… I mean Al stop talking about Rossi and DKG for god sake.”

    Really? Talking about holes, you’ve had your head up Rossi’s from the start. How does it feel now, Robert?

  11. ts

    November 14, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    No results from this test for about 2 days now? Any idea what this means? It seems the results posted were in the measurement error/noise range. This means they might have had a signal to noise ratio of less than 1.

  12. RonB

    November 14, 2012 at 2:48 pm

    At 6:35PST today, the Cel#1 appears to be taking off. It bounced over 5W’s a couple times and is trending upwards

    • RonB

      November 14, 2012 at 3:42 pm

      bad info.. the ambient changed by 2-3 degrees that affected the excess power reading.. (sigh)

      • John Milstone

        November 15, 2012 at 11:02 am

        If these previous two comments by RonB don’t demonstrate the problems with LENR “True Believers”, nothing does.

        It must be awful to have one’s hope bounce up at every apparently positive comment, only to be dashed an hour later when reality rears it’s head.

        • RonB

          November 15, 2012 at 6:27 pm

          If you’re speaking about my hope, it’s not changed one little bit despite what you think and/or say.

          I can only say that it’s must be sad to live in your world where all hope is dead.

          You use believe in one paragraph and then switch to hope in the second. There is a difference you know.

          • John Milstone

            November 16, 2012 at 10:52 am

            If “believing” in LENR makes you happy, by all means continue.

            You might want to look up the story of Santa Claus while you’re at it. Lots of people “believe” in Santa, and they seem to gain considerable enjoyment from that “belief”.

            Some of us, however, prefer to live in the real world.

  13. Auenland

    November 14, 2012 at 3:18 pm

    Ok, Rossi has once again “delivered” what was expected from sane observers anyway, since the deadline for the plublication of the 3erd party “test” was passing by:
    No more interviews! 😀

    “I am receiving many requests of interview in this period, and I am spamming all of them. This comment is the answer for all: I will not release any more interview of any kind until the 1 MW plant for civil use will be presented to the public. This decision has been agreed upon between our new US Partner and the Trust that owns Leonardo Corp. We think any interview in this period is simply useless, because we have nothing to add to what we have already said, while we have an enormous work to do.
    I will continue to answer to the questions put on this blog from the readers of the Journal Of Nuclear Physics, though, because this blog is useful to us: here we learn, many times.
    Warm Regards,


    • Auenland

      November 14, 2012 at 3:26 pm

      Sorry, didn’t see that is was posted already.

    • RonB

      November 14, 2012 at 3:45 pm

      This comment is the answer for all: I will not release any more interview of any kind until the 1 MW plant for civil use will be presented to the public.

      I think he’s saying that EVEN if the AP came back at this point and wanted to do an interview and write up an news report, they would be turned down.
      Since most of the news/info has been coming from the JONP I don’t see this as a change at all.

  14. PersonFromPorlock

    November 14, 2012 at 6:11 pm

    I kind of favor Rossi (who is not young, after all) ‘suffering a stroke’ and being hospitalized in an unnamed facility, never to be heard from again. Leonardo Corp., sadly, falls apart without its guiding light… and nobody knows nuttin’ about nuttin’, especially where the money went.

  15. Jami

    November 14, 2012 at 9:16 pm

    “But great applause is in order for the no-nonsense and open approach of the MFMP experimantalists.”

    Well, at least they seem to be open and honest about their experimental deficiencies. The approach and the difficulties encountered in following it demonstrate how unrealistic it is to believe that “all those scientists measuring excess heat can’t be wrong”. Not only can they have it wrong – but they’re practically guaranteed to not have it right. If I understand their latest data correctly, following Celani’s suggestion to calculate power based on shell temperature differences yields a computed output range well beyond what Celani claimed as overall excess – and that was just for calibration runs. Makes you wonder how Celani got around that issue (which, of course, assumes that he was aware of it. If he wasn’t, his results are worthless. If he was, then why has he suggested the method?).

    • RonB

      November 14, 2012 at 10:10 pm

      I’ve been watching the data as well and what I’m looking for the output to be nonlinear with all the inputs linear. If it’s possible to monitor everything that makes the output have a temperature and that output temperature is stable and follows all the inputs, then the output changes but none of the inputs change then that’s the AHE.

      I think if they are trying to establish a COP then it’s very important to know with precision the values for all the inputs and the output.

      It’s important to first produce the effect reliably and then figure out how to measure it very accurately.

      • JKW

        November 15, 2012 at 2:02 am

        Nonlinear output is expected. Since the whole experiment is based on temperature readings, not calorimetry (which is loathed by LENR researchers for some reason) it is prone to inaccuracy. The relationship between temperature difference and output power is nonlinear (e.g. radiated heat is described by Stefan-Boltzmann law). There are just too many unknowns to make this experiment reliable. Even if the outcome is negative, it doesn’t prove much.

        • Al Potenza

          November 15, 2012 at 3:17 am

          Calorimetry really is more difficult and expensive and time consuming than making temperature measurements. But almost a century of experiments in heat transfer and fluid flow have shown that it is often necessary to do it in order to know what you’re really talking about.

          Simple temperature measurements are highly error prone as Rossi showed graphically with his horribly misleading “demos”. I agree. These guys should do some sort of very foolproof calorimetry, either envelope or fluid flow. They’ve been told that on their blog by several people including me.

          In the end, accurate calorimetry would save them a lot of time and frustration.

          • JNewman

            November 15, 2012 at 3:56 am

            Unfortunately, the greatest audience for this effort is the LENR fan crowd who mostly don’t have the scientific background to appreciate that the heat (anomalous or not) in these experiments is not really being measured but instead is inferred from temperature measurements and modeling that is highly dependent upon various assumptions. As a result, any observations of so-called excess heat are at best subject to significant error. If the effects being sought here are small in magnitude, this approach will be inconclusive. As you and others have pointed out repeatedly, accurate calorimetry is essential if this effort is to achieve anything of lasting value. It is clear that the intentions of this effort are all very good. I hope those involved make intelligent choices.

        • RonB

          November 15, 2012 at 4:56 am

          Nonlinear output is expected

          I think they hope for a nonlinear response, it’s a stretch to say the expect it.

          If the output is running at say (2 watts excess) even though there really isn’t any excess heat because there’s no AHE but due to some other factors, it just is at 2 watts and it’s that way for 14 hours and hasn’t changed one bit, then all of the sudden it jumps to 12 watts output. That is a nonlinear response. If at that time every possible thing that can contribute (positive or negative) is being measured and none of them have changed, then that’s the AH effect that I would be expecting to show they have reproduced it. You can try to complicate the matter (as big brains often try to do) but it’s probably better to keep it simple.

  16. Dick Smith

    November 15, 2012 at 12:11 am

    Anyone know if the Florida factory is completed?
    Can’t be long now- or did Rossie say that it was not now going ahead. I still have a reward out for a photo and need to plan my finances!

    • RonB

      November 15, 2012 at 1:59 am

      Are you following the quantumheat guys working on replication of the Celani LENR cell?

      The could use a generous benefactor ; ) And since your planning your finances…

      • Al Potenza

        November 15, 2012 at 3:14 am

        So far these well meaning bright people have shown absolutely nothing to prove LENR is real and Celani has something. When and if they ever do, they will get all the support they’ll ever need. Until then, it’s not that expensive a type of work to do. And they already have quite a lot of donations.

        • Dick Hertz

          November 15, 2012 at 3:56 am

          Not that expensive? Oh sure, all they need is lab space, the ability to machine precision custom made parts, a collection of analytical tools, IT support, and a group of well educated workers. It should be practically free.

          Now you on the other hand, for your part you require an internet connection, how do you afford it?

          • Al Potenza

            November 15, 2012 at 7:13 am

            Well, Dick Hertz, what’s stopping YOU from writing them a generous check?

          • John Milstone

            November 15, 2012 at 10:56 am

            As I recall, the University of Missouri recently received $5 million for LENR research. Why aren’t they funding projects like this?

            For that matter, what have they actually accomplished with all that money? Anything at all, other than getting the True Believers all excited over nothing?

        • RonB

          November 15, 2012 at 4:43 am

          Thank you for your input, I really was speaking to Dick, unless of course you are him.

        • RonB

          November 15, 2012 at 7:24 am

          The advice you give them (even if they might not take it) is worth more than checks.
          I really hope you will continue to help them.

      • dsm

        November 15, 2012 at 4:14 am

        Isn’t it great to tell other people what *you* would like to do with their money when they have it & you don’t lol

        • RonB

          November 15, 2012 at 4:47 am

          The could use a generous benefactor ; ) And since your planning your finances…

          DSM, I think you’re reading words into what I say, much like you do with other things you read on the web.

          • dsm

            November 15, 2012 at 9:08 pm

            No RonB

            In so many cases it is the clarity with which you write it (or fail to write it lol )


        • Dick Hertz

          November 15, 2012 at 4:57 am

          Thank goodness you’re here to defend Dick Smith. Anytime anyone mentions him in a way that you perceive to be unflattering you leap into action.

          You are Mr. Smithers and Dick is Mr. Burns

          • Methusela

            November 15, 2012 at 7:06 am


            It does seem like that at times 😉

          • dsm

            November 15, 2012 at 9:16 pm

            Dick Hertz

            Some people have earned the right to be defended, some haven’t.

            DS donates over $1 mill / p.a. to charities and causes in Aust and is probably this country’s most outspoken defender of small business, farmers & local manufacturers.

            When some of us here see thoughtless quips directed at someone like him who does so much, (often by people who likely do so little but carp), there is a tendency to want highlight DS charitable work. So yes I do feel the inclination to step in.

            Cheers DSM

          • Methusela

            November 15, 2012 at 11:33 pm

            As has been aired recently in the British press, those who contribute vast amounts to charity very publicly, aren’t guaranteed to be nice people, and may not be the people to trust.

          • Dick Hertz

            November 16, 2012 at 3:21 am

            Oh please, tell me more about Dick Smith. Or I could call my 12 year old niece and have her tell me all about Justin Bieber. Either way, same thing.

        • Bettingman

          November 15, 2012 at 9:57 am

          Well, I gave them 500 usd. In case everybody gives them something that they can miss, the project can do some more experiments and perhaps we find something… In the meantime, it is great entertainment!

          • Methusela

            November 15, 2012 at 10:13 am

            I gave ’em a $100.

          • Bigwilly

            November 15, 2012 at 5:25 pm

            I gave $2000. It was made by selling “drugs” to “kids” but as a utilitarian i think the greater “good” was served.


    • spacegoat

      November 15, 2012 at 2:10 am

      Dear Dick,
      did you donate to the MFMP science project or do you just enjoy sneering?

      • JKW

        November 15, 2012 at 2:28 am

        You got forgot “warm regards” at the end… 😉

        • RonB

          November 15, 2012 at 4:48 am


    • JKW

      November 15, 2012 at 3:00 am

      Dick Smith,
      I didn’t know you have a prize for a photo of a factory, just the 1 mil prize for proof of a working LENR device with commercially usable power gain. There is a bunch of rundown factories in my neighborhood, so I can send a few pictures (do you pay per picture?). If the photos are no good, I have a friend who can whip up anything in Photoshop. He’s expensive, though, and I will have to take 50%.for forwarding the opportunity. I’d ask Ransompw to represent me in the deal, but he’s too biased to trust him.

    • Al Potenza

      November 15, 2012 at 3:19 am

      Rossi had a conversation with a State of Florida Nuclear inspector. You may recall the event. Rossi clearly told the inspector that he was not building, running, testing, or having anything to do with any nuclear reactors of any type in the state. I guess Rossi suffers from some sort of delusional disorder in which two mutually exclusive set of facts can both be true!

  17. Ryan Locke

    November 15, 2012 at 1:56 am

    hello Smith.

    Likewise im working on my protoype for a LENR powered jet pack. just waiting on Rossi.

    • JKW

      November 15, 2012 at 5:27 am

      Are you planning to attach a diesel generator to the jet pack? Take caution to land with the generator side down…

  18. Anonymous

    November 15, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    Dick Smith,

    Glad to see your monitoring LENR.

    So far, nothing from Rossi, nothing from Defkalion.

    The other posters are right that LENR research could use some funding, but it does not need to be “generous”, but rather can be frugal.

    A post-doc scientific researcher at a University, maybe in your own Australia, earns and needs to live maybe $40K U.S. per year. To build a LENR experiment at a university (where the space is free) needs maybe $20K.

    If you want to help, the thing to do is to establish fellowships for say 5 potential researchers, and let them apply for the “Dick Smith Fellowship” in LENR research. Either you or your favorite Ph.D. reviews their application and you fund, together with preferential access.

    And by the way, a requirement to get disbursed of the last payment of the fellowship is to submit to peer review an academic quality paper (just like their Ph.D. dissertation). You can publish these papers pending submission just as is done in physics ArXive to spread the research word.

    I see too much work being done behind closed doors by Rossi with patent walls. Your job is to open it up.

    You will be able to decide on an annual basis if you want to continue funding the fellowships based on whether this field of LENR is promising or not.

    This is a better thing to do with your fortune than make another Rossi challenge — but that of course is too late.

    I’m still anonymous but if you need more help, reply back and I will find a way to contact you so you can tell its me. I’m from the U.S. and have owned a few shall we say interesting airplanes — that will weed out the chaff in your secretary’s inbox.

    Anonymous Mike

    • Al Potenza

      November 15, 2012 at 4:51 pm

      Just a minor correction. Rossi’s only work behind closed doors is making up stuff, insulting critics, and fooling investors and distributors with deceitful “demonstrations”. His patent applications are laughable and pitiful including the one lonely (Italian, IIRC) patent he was granted.

    • Bigwilly

      November 15, 2012 at 5:23 pm

      I wish everyone would stop critizing perpetual motion and donate to its research also.


      • dsm

        November 15, 2012 at 9:05 pm

        LOL 🙂


    • dsm

      November 16, 2012 at 2:42 am

      Your idea has a lot of merit but I believe there are complications in DS getting involved. DS will always speak for himself so my comments are informed opinion but intended to help explain why DS is unlikely to be able follow up your good idea.
      DS is inundated with request for financial donations/support. This is a reflection of his well established (in Aust) generosity & support for ‘battlers’ in life and in business.
      DS only got involved here after one such request from a man in Australia called Sol Millin who asked DS to put up around $200K in support of a fantastic new energy that he (Sol) wanted to bring to Australia. It was called the eCat. Sol’s scheme was he (Sol) had obtained the Australian rights for the eCat & Dick Smith’s contribution would give him (DS) a minority share in the operation. Sol had not spelled out that he only had the rights on a verbal agreement with Rossi.
      DS asked a friend who was more into new energy to attend Sol Millin’s announcement of this new energy complete with a video stream from one Andrea Rossi in Italy who was the genius behind the eCat invention.
      The meeting went ahead, Mr Rossi didn’t appear (video or audio), DS’s friend said “this is a scam” & the rest is history.
      DS did *not* want to see people being talked into investing in an unproven technology by a doubtful (if not sincere) businessman who in turn appeared convinced that A Rossi was about to change the world. DS has seen *far too many* such schemes in the past.
      By posting the $1 Million award for a proven demo, DS hoped people would quickly realize this invention was not quite what was claimed. When DGT claimed they could do the same as Rossi, DS extended the offer to them, then *anyone* who could demo > 1 KW LENR energy (with a lowly COP > 3). The head of DGT actually said in an email to DS that he was looking forward to claiming the reward in Oct 2012. That hasn’t happened. The time limit is end Fed 2013 & that is rapidly approaching.
      Main point though, is the DS’s charity work is pretty much confined to Australia with few exceptions and also DS will avoid any situation where a 3rd party has a great scheme or a great idea no matter how beneficial the claimed results may be.
      One could ask where DS would be if he had advanced 200K to Sol Millin no matter on what terms. Sol would be saying “it will real soon now Dick, just trust me, Just wait until Nov 2012 & forget all the other dates I promised before this”.
      Bottom line is DS would have lost his $200k – am not sure what Millin would have lost as it seems his plan was to use all DS’s requested contribution to buy Aust/NZ rights to eCats. He didn’t tell DS that part at the time. After Sol failed to pay Rossi, Roger Green leaped at the opportunity and Roger bought many more agencies for home ecats & 1MW plants.
      DS’s real interest at this time is not investing in new energy experiments in another country. In fact, I believe his primary interest at this time is doing what he can to protect people from losing money on such schemes until such time as the technology can be shown to be real.
      DS has relied to some degree on statements from Professor Peter Ekström, lecturer at the Department of Nuclear Physics at Lund University in Sweden. Some may not like his POV but DS has to rely on someone & prefers Peter Ekström’s views to those of Swedish physicists, Hanno Essén and Sven Kullander.

      • dsm

        November 16, 2012 at 2:54 am

      • Anonymous

        November 16, 2012 at 4:31 am

        Hey DSM,

        I was there when Sol, who seems to me to be some kind of a schemer from the start, got involved in marketing the “Australian” rights to eCat.


        Dick Smith also has a prize for the first young person to do become famous spreading the word about global population growth:

        So my impression is that we have a forward thinking person in Dick Smith who sees the need for new forms of energy production to prevent starvation — energy is needed in great quantities to support our Green Revolution agriculture on the finite arable land on Earth.

        I think we all can agree at this point that Rossi is unlikely to deliver any time soon, even if we assume he is well intentioned. I’d rather see the research in the open performed by competing academic teams who publish their work for peer review and then license whatever intellectual property comes of it via their University or better a non-profit foundation.

        I think a little work goes a long way, and a fellowship application can focus a small amount of research dollars on people best equipped to move the LENR r&d forward.

        Finally, I said nothing about geography. There are certainly strong research Universities in Australia, so why not sponsor a post doc or two right next to home — where he can fly his helicopter to the lab for a visit.

        The LENR prize itself has a money multiplier effect on research, but it presupposes that the qualified researchers can get to the point financially to claim the prize. I think $60K fellowships for 1 year of research go a long way.



        • dsm

          November 16, 2012 at 6:09 am

          There are without doubt many great ways to encourage people in endeavors.
          Maybe DS might get to read your post & respond. As said he is his own person, my observations come from several discussion with DS and at one time I asked him if he would reconsider his concern re DGT & go visit them, I offered to go with him. I did this based on info from Jim Dunne who spent some months beforehand trying to get DS to visit DGT.
          What DS said (paraphrased) was that the moment he got personally involved with any such venture it would take the impact out of his ‘prove it’ offer as he was and remains quite convinced that neither Rossi nor DGT had what they claimed. Thus far he is more right than anyone else I know. He still doubts LENR and unfortunately even on that he has time and lack of results on his side. I remain a LENR hopeful.
          So point I am trying to make is, just because you or I may get very excited about new energy, DS will only get excited when the potential for the scams has gone. Restated, on matters that are so grippingly powerful (free energy, flying cars, hover skateboards, etc: ), there is far too much potential for scamming and manipulation. DS will want it accepted by science then I believe he might be interested in promoting Australian potential on the technology.

    • JKW

      November 16, 2012 at 1:12 pm

      Anonymous, you are as naive as a true believer. Did Smith ever reply to any post here? He just writes a sarcastic remark about Rossi (which is fine by me) once per month when a reminder pops up on his screen, and he’s gone. DSM then takes over the function of clarifying and replying to these posts.

  19. Tyler

    November 15, 2012 at 5:42 pm


    You were right about the failed LENR experiment by Olga Dimtriyeva last year. I incorporated your suggestions into my slide Number 7 at

    Unfortunately the facts about that experiment may not support your skepticism. After Olga’s negative results in 2011 as a grad student that you mentioned and she published in early 2012, she and her team did achieve LENR power gain from Pd-D and published those results in May and September 2012. Since graduating she now works full time as a scientist in an LENR startup. All links in my presentation.

    So again I ask – can anyone identify anyone credible who was not able to get LENR to work within the past 4 years??

    thanks, tyler

    • Al Potenza

      November 15, 2012 at 5:58 pm

      Wrong question. Nobody knows the answer to the one you asked.

      The question perhaps you meant to ask is “can anyone identify anyone credible who ADMITS THAT THEY WERE NOT ABLE to get LENR to work”.

      That nobody admits it doesn’t mean it’s the case that it all works. All that means is that some people don’t talk about or even admit negative results. Others may be scamming or deceiving themselves. Finally, most people who would be very objective about LENR read the miserable literature and don’t bother to get involved. Most investigators are those who don’t see how bad the previous work is, how convoluted and equivocal. They mostly tend to be believers to start with and I would not expect them to bother reporting negative results.

      So your view is biased.

      Typical scammers or self deceivers (I have no idea which is which) include McKubre, Miley, Nanospire and Brillouin when you look closely. Also BLP but they aren’t most likely an LENR claim. Actually it’s hard to even determine what they claim! Reading their web site is like trying to walk in a peat bog.

      I won’t even mention Rossi and Defkalion or do you still think those two weird adventures have any merit, Tyler? Surely by now, even you must be harboring some doubt about those people.

      Celani seems honest but he has yet to be convincing and the same goes for the folks.

      • Tyler

        November 15, 2012 at 6:08 pm

        So in the last 4 years, we have hundreds of very reputable scientists who have tested LENR/CF saying it does work (going against the accepted theory). On the other side, we have NONE who tested LENR saying it does not work, even though that agrees with accepted theory.

        Clearly it would be highly controversial for a scientist to say that they tested cold fusion and it does not work. LMAO

        I suggest again you look through the telescope.

        • JNewman

          November 15, 2012 at 7:37 pm

          Tyler, if you honestly expect to gain credibility with anybody other than LENR fans, you should remove all traces of the word “proof” from your website. You have not proven anything; you have presented inferential evidence (lots of folks believe in LENR, blah blah.). If you actually think your slides constitute proof of LENR, then you clearly don’t understand what the word proof means. If that is the case, best of luck to you.

          • Frank

            November 16, 2012 at 6:23 am

            Actually this “document” and the fact that it was presented in ICCF17 is a good reason for me to be highly sceptical to the whole LENR community.
            If they don’t have better stuff to promote LENR… Oh my goodness!

        • B. Habin

          November 15, 2012 at 9:01 pm

          My respekt for your slide-collection,
          but “the devil is in the details”.

          Coincidentally i start reading at
          slide 39.

          Maybe some readers remember to the
          socalled “indian scientists” from
          a video. If i remember right, they
          are potential licensees at this time.
          However, can you help with a contact
          adress (University, e-mail)?

          Next funny detail is the picture with
          the blue container.

          Here is a greater picture with an
          rather non-publicized detail:

          And now the real bad news.

          Shutdownrossi has slaughtered lenrproof in his
          latest post. I have not read it, but it
          looks like the usual posts from him.

          • JNewman

            November 15, 2012 at 9:44 pm

            As usual, the piece at shutdownrossi is overkill. The faithful will ignore it or attack it. Anyone else doesn’t really need it since Tyler’s presentation is nothing more than a highly biased puff piece and that is self-evident without such a lengthy diatribe.

          • Methusela

            November 15, 2012 at 11:21 pm

            …highly biased puff piece

            Enough of the baseball analogies. I no longer demur – you’re guilty of vast quantities of the same!

          • JNewman

            November 16, 2012 at 12:05 am

            Baseball analogies? You lost me there.

          • Mickey

            November 16, 2012 at 1:16 am

            One of the online dictionaries defines proof like this:

            “evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.”

            Now we know that be a follower of Rossi you have to walk by faith, not facts, because Rossi’s project has all the hallmarks of a cult.

            It is clear that Tyler is using just the last part of the definition i.e. “evidence sufficient to produce belief in its truth.”

            Tyler, like all followers of Rossi who have only belief and faith in their guru, only provides reasons to try and get people to believe, not to provide truth or actual facts.

            When you read the analysis of Tyler’s paper by Gary Wright here:


            You will notice that Gary concentrates on Tyler’s claim he is using “facts” in his slides.

            Maybe Gary knows that all Tyler is doing is providing his evidence to produce a belief in Rossi, not to prove LENR is true or is based on facts.

        • John Milstone

          November 16, 2012 at 10:46 am

          On the other side, we have NONE who tested LENR saying it does not work, even though that agrees with accepted theory.

          And there are no credible research papers by competent scientists that Bigfoot doesn’t exist, therefore Bigfoot must exist.

          Your lack of logical thinking is breathtaking.

  20. Jami

    November 15, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    “If it’s possible to monitor everything that makes the output have a temperature and that output temperature is stable and follows all the inputs, then the output changes but none of the inputs change then that’s the AHE.”

    No, it isn’t. It is just different temperatures. Means nothing by itself. You would have to include gradients and their temporal development on a very small scale to infer anything from it. In the end, you’ll have something vastly more complex than flow calorimetry and still less reliable. Too early to call, of course, but I’m afraid the quantumheat experiment may well end like most LENR “proofs”: inconclusive (at best). Then somebody will come up with a formula showing more power out than in. The believers will call it definite while the researchers themselves will say it’s encouraging but needs more work (which they unfortunately will feel ill equipped to put in and move on to something else – possibly also LENR related but not based on Celani’s wires but on whatever the LENR hope du jour will be).

    • RonB

      November 15, 2012 at 9:14 pm

      That’s why I used the example of 14 hours of steady input and steady output. You are correct in the assumption that instantaneous measurements will not give you an accurate picture of what’s going on.
      The 14 hours was completely arbitrary and in reality the value needs to be in proportion to the dynamics of the system being measured.

      Again, the example I was using was not to establish a COP or any definitive amount of excess heat, just the fact that excess heat is being generated. It’s true that if what you are measuring is less than the accuracy of measurements then all bets are off.

      • Jami

        November 15, 2012 at 9:22 pm

        I understand what you’re saying but you’re still wrong. Temperature means nothing in terms of energy. You can measure double the temperatures without changing anything about the power output. Heat is energy transfer. Temperature is just a property. You’ve got the idea that you can measure temperature on enough spots and with enough temporal resolution to infer one from the other. But you can’t.

        • daniel maris

          November 15, 2012 at 10:14 pm

          I will agree with you Jami to the extent that heat is not to be trusted! I would like to see them harness heat to produce electricity as a convincing proof.

          • John Milstone

            December 25, 2012 at 1:12 pm

            I would like to see them harness heat to produce electricity as a convincing proof.

            Isn’t it funny that no one has ever been able to do this?

            Isn’t it funny that no one has even come close to being able to do so?

            Isn’t it funny how the more reliable and trustworthy the claimant, the less impressive the results?

        • RonB

          November 15, 2012 at 11:51 pm

          I understand what you’re saying

          No you don’t understand what I’m saying but that is my fault for not explaining it well enough. If you did understand you would agree since it’s common sense.

          • JNewman

            November 16, 2012 at 2:16 am

            This whole discussion convinces me that while people here are enthusiastically following the experiment online, most actually have no idea what is actually being measured and how it is related to what is being inferred from such measurements. And yet these same people claim to read journal articles on Rothwell’s site and make judgements about the validity of results and disparage skeptics for not being convinced by them. It is truly something to behold.

  21. RonB

    November 15, 2012 at 11:42 pm

    I wasn’t talking about heat, I was talking about response to heat over time.

    It’s like the cooling system in your car. Lets say you’ve been driving for 4 hours down the road, all the time the temp gauge is about half scale then all of a sudden it goes to full scale. It doesn’t matter what the temperature is, you know something has changed.

    • JKW

      November 16, 2012 at 1:28 am

      Is the temperature gauge in your car scaled in kW?

    • Al Potenza

      November 16, 2012 at 2:22 am

      Your problem is that changes in temperature do not tell you WHAT changed. In recent experiment at, it seems what changed was the ambient temperature and perhaps air flow over the cell.

    • Mickey

      November 16, 2012 at 2:29 am


      Since these are spot temp measurements all it could take for a change in temp of a temp source (i.e. thermocouple) could be someone bumping the table that the device is sitting on.

      There are to many unknowns for this type of system to prove anything.

      • RonB

        November 16, 2012 at 2:06 pm

        Micky,Al, Others
        This is true and all the stuff that can go wrong needs to be checked out. Al states it correctly, if that XS power jumps up very quickly and they can’t find any reason why it does and then they can repeat this test over and over then they have a control system to be able to experiment with. You can start to change the variables one by one to see their contribution to the effect.

        I don’t know that I would jump to the accurate measurement of the effect until I understood the factors that contributed to the effect (however large it is). You could just use relative values (relative to the last run).

        It’s just my opinion but if it were me, I would take this approach.

  22. Al Potenza

    November 16, 2012 at 3:08 am

    Well, in consideration of all the hard work the Quantumenergy people are doing, one can say this:

    If they get a VERY large effect, and it’s consistent in a stable, well calibrated system, then it’s well worth doing some sort of gold-standard calorimetry testing. You won’t know for sure they have something but the larger the temperature rise they get, and the longer it is sustained without needing to add hydrogen or treated wire, the more urgent it becomes to get better testing using a superior method.

  23. Voodoo

    November 16, 2012 at 7:34 am

    When pathological liar lie, he never remember what lie he lied one week back.

    Last Inventor’s “dialectial” issue:

    3 weeks old question: Which element is produced mostly in reactor ? Inventor’s answer: NICKEL

    1 day old question: Can Nickel mass increase ?
    Inventor’s answer: NO

    It is not necessary to write-off Mr. Inventor.
    Such handicap is pretty common ill. It is curable.

    • dsm

      November 16, 2012 at 11:04 am

      Vat language yoo speak wheer yoo r ?
      Tanks for yoor posts but haffink great difficulty parsing them.

      Thannkz ennywhey !

      • Voodoo

        November 16, 2012 at 11:24 am

        Czech, and Your ?

      • JKW

        November 16, 2012 at 12:21 pm

        DSM speaks Foster, which is Australian for beer 😉

  24. Dale G. Basgall

    November 16, 2012 at 11:47 am

    There is an add right in front of the dropdown on the quantum heat site that prevents going to the discussions without clicking first on the add.

    It appears that the quantum site has a sophisticated web site that is a little more hi tech than the other sites regarding LENR.

    Anyway I hope they fix it cause I am not clicking on an add just to view the discussions, anyone else notice that?

    Also this experiment they are doing is a Celani Replication, they should use the same measurement apparatus that Celani is using instead of modifying meters for themselves.

    Replication and proof of concept directly relate and unless everything is done to “replicate” a proof of concept it is truly not a replication.

    • JKW

      November 16, 2012 at 12:36 pm

      Dale, I don’t see the Add, but I’m running Intranet explorer zero point one beta. Don’t be mean, click the ad. People are donating actual money to these folks….

      • JKW

        November 16, 2012 at 12:52 pm

        BTW, “Celani Replication” means they are cloning Celani, not some silly wires.

  25. JKW

    November 16, 2012 at 1:34 pm

    I always wondered since the first time I saw the website… What is actually that funny looking vacuum tube the guy in glasses is holding on (The little black and white photo to the right of the title). It looks like a part from his dad’s TV and he’s revering it…

    • Ransompw

      December 6, 2012 at 6:33 pm


      Why do you keep commenting on Fleischmann’s picture from 1989?

  26. real

    December 26, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    real updated news

  27. Methusela

    February 17, 2013 at 7:08 pm

    So, wonder which website Milstone and Potenza have been haranguing recently?