eCatNews Direct to your MailBox

Enter your email address to follow the ecat story ahead of the crowd

I loathe spam. You can unsubscribe at any time. I will not pass your details to a third party

HotCat Fail For Hydrofusion – Updated

September 10, 2012

Important Update from Mats Lewan of Ny Teknik at end of this post.

Hydrofusion, the company behind Andrea Rossi’s official web site at ecat.com (and his N European rep) has issued a press release indicating that it cannot support Rossi’s claims for the HotCat. As I always caution against jumping to positive conclusions on flimsy evidence, it is also too early to tell how significant this announcement is. The wording is curious. Some commentators think the press release is framed to distance the company from the claims while one individual claims that a minor technical glitch (ac input)  lies at the root of the failure. Started by a small group of Swedish scientists, Hydrofusion is uniquely placed to make a call one way or the other. They fully understand the controversy behind these extraordinary claims and must know that such a statement will be pounced upon as tealeaves to be read.

Press release

Hydro Fusion witnessed a new independent test of the high temperature ECAT prototype reactor on September 6th in Bologna. Although no full report has yet been received, early indications are that the results of the July 16th/August 7th reports could not be reproduced.

Hydro Fusion cannot at this stage support any claims made, written or other, about the amount of excess heat generated by the new high temperature ECAT prototype.

The timing is curious. Hot on the heels of his Zurich appearance, AR was keen to yell the following:

  • Andrea Rossi

    Dear Brian:
    It is necessary that I repeat the following statement:
    THE HOT CAT ( REACTOR AT HIGH TEMPERATURE) HAS NOT BEEN YET VALIDATED, BECAUSE THE TESTS AND THE MEASUREMENTS HAVE STILL TO BE COMPLETED, AND TO COMPLETE THEM WILL BE NECESSARY AT LEAST 2-3 MORE MONTHS. I SAID THIS IN MY REPORT IN ZURICH AND I REPEAT THIS HERE.
    THE PROFESSORS AND ENGINEERS WHO ARE MAKING THESE TESTS ARE SPECIALISTS AND THEIR WORK IS COMPLEX. FOR EXAMPLE, THE MEASUREMENT OF THE ENERGY CONSUMED HAS TO BE MADE IN A WAY THAT IS BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT, SO NOW WE ARE REPEATING THE MEASUREMENTS USING A VARIAC TO AVOID THAT ENERGY USED BY THE RESISTANCES IS NOT MEASURED BY THE VOLTMETER AND THE AMPEROMETER ( THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE MANY ISSUES THAT ARE UNDER PROBE). THEREFORE IT IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG TO USE THE EXPRESSION ” THE ENGINEERS WHO PERFORMED THE PUBLISHED VALIDATION”, WHILE IS CORRECT THE EXPRESSION ” THE PROFESSORS AND THE ENGINEERS WHO ARE PERFORMING THE VALIDATION IN COURSE”.
    THE FINAL RESULTS WILL BE PUBLISHED IN A SCIENTIFIC MAGAZINE ONLY AFTER THE VALIDATION WILL HAVE BEEN COMPLETED.
    I AM RECEIVING FROM MANY PERSONS THIS QUESTION: ” IS IT POSSIBLE TO INVEST IN THE HOT CAT”? MY ANSWER IS: NO, IT IS NOT, BECAUSE THE REACTOR FOR HIGH TEMPERATURES IS NOT READY, IS NOT AS PRODUCT, IS A PROTOTYPE SUBJECT TO RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT AND I WANT NOT TO PUT ANYBODY AT RISK BEFORE THE HOT CAT IS NOT YET A PRODUCT. OF COURSE I BELIEVE IN IT, I AM INVESTING MY MONEY IN IT, BUT I WANT NOT TO PLAY FOOT BALL WITH THE BONES OF THE OTHERS.
    Warm Regards,
    Andrea Rossi

To be fair, he did say at the conference that these were preliminary results that required confirmation (even as he said he believed them). If we step back, however, I could not help but wonder why the inventor would arrive at the first meeting of licensees who are reported to have paid real money to ride this train and talk about anything but tangible business stuff. When he announced his million-unit factory, Autumn 2012 was touted as a target for results. What those results were to be is a little vague but most observers expected to see some sort of proof that such a project really does exist. Of course, although there has been no official announcement that his ‘plans’ have changed, it is not too big a stretch to guess that a lack of certification might put a damper on things.

On that subject, I read many people talking about the claimed certification for the 1MW plant. When referring to the CE label, it is important to note than in Europe, this can be done in-house. As long as you have a device that you can categorize on the list of official product descriptors (tv, fridge, boiler etc) you can stick the CE label on your product self-confirming that it conforms to requirements. Voila! It is certified. Rossi confirmed this during his talk on Sunday. He added that the company also requested external certification but it was not clear exactly what that entailed. He did point out that since the eCat does not use radioactive materials, does not produce any and the device does not radiate outside its enclosure, it falls under normal rules for conventional non-nuclear machines (such as microwaves and phones).

It was a curious talk and curiouser still that the audience did not tackle him on details such as roll-out plans. I can only guess that back-channel communications are being used for such commercial-in-confidence talk but nothing would surprise me in this ever-surprising saga.

Hydrofusion’s speedy press release may or may not be a warning shot of things to come. Leaks are beginning to appear as more and more actors come into play and one man finds it impossible to cover all bases. As is my refrain, it is always possible that we are reading the signals incorrectly – but the battleship does appear to be listing. I genuinely hope that our worries are unfounded and reserve the final leap for the upcoming promise of UniBo’s validation. If he delivers, nothing else will matter and, if not, I predict an eCat exodus.

[As an aside, it appears that Domenico Fioravanti, the engineer Rossi claims acted as the secret customer's rep at the 1MW acceptance test last October (and was outed as the source of the original HotCat leak) is also one of the engineers behind the latest HotCat tests. This was spotted by a vigilant e-catworld reader: Screenshot of filepath and the original HotCat file. Note the name 'Cures' at bottom left on pages 9 and 12.]

 

UPDATE

With thanks to Mats Lewan at Ny Teknik, he has just informed me that the Swedes have halted their eCat investment after the failed tests. The article is in Swedish but Google translates it well:

[Note that the currency is Swedish Kronor]

‘Swedish investment in E-cat halted after test’

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3535258.ece

Google Translate:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nyteknik.se%2Fnyheter%2Fenergi_miljo%2Fenergi%2Farticle3535258.ece

From that article:

Investor Group had instructed the SP Technical Research Institute of Sweden, to monitor the measurement, and the researchers who attended measuring an input electrical power that was two to three times higher than Rossi himself measured.

Despite this, Rossi presented a measurement report September 9 based on earlier tests where a lower input power and an energy surplus reported.

This is about as bad as it could get and may short circuit all other considerations if it is verified. The company stresses that the tests were for the HotCat but it is interesting to note that they are halting their investment [until further notice?]

[With thanks to Mats]

Posted by on September 10, 2012. Filed under products,Rossi,Tests & Demos. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

165 Responses to HotCat Fail For Hydrofusion – Updated

  1. Guru Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    This is serious situation

    Fortunatelly, there is HephaHeat (only few quartals delayed).

  2. Dale G. Basgall Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    What? The Hot Cat is dead?

    • Dr Smithurst Reply

      September 18, 2012 at 6:50 am

      Now, give the man a chance. You have to realise that the coaxial energy co-efficient that is derived from multiplying beta with the alpha input can vary if not divided by the current. It makes sense to me that Dr Rossi’s HotCat must work as the heat exchange versus peripheral environmental influences which grow as energy decreases cannot be seen as completely separate occurences. Don’t you get it? The maximum adjustable output is limited by Mr Rossi’s pants size and circumfrance of his big toe divided by scrotum output.

  3. Camilo Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    This is certainly looking awfull for Rossi and believers.

  4. Bettingman Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    So the Swedes measured that Rossi had an input power three times higher then he himself states he has? Interesting. Very interesting. But not surprising.

    • Francesco CH Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 4:22 pm

      Ok,

      the problem stems from some interferences generated by the electricity passing through the resistors and detected by the instruments used by the Swedes.

      Rossi uses a kind of TRIAC circuit that can generate interferences during this measurements, however it is a problem that can be easily solved by inserting a variac before the resistors.

      • Jay2011 Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 6:19 pm

        As I mentioned in my earlier critique of the HotCat measurements, high frequency components to the power will almost invariably lead to incorrect power measurements when using a standard voltmeter & ammeter to separately measure voltage and current and then multiplying the two numbers together. That only works with good sinusoidal voltage/current waveforms. Triac type pulses in particular are notorious for producing waveforms that can’t be measured accurately in that fashion.

  5. Jim Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 3:51 pm

    The test reports Rossi provided last Saturday seemed to indicate significant issues with the measurement of electrical power via Rossi’s equipment and apparently cobbled together a secondary system that significantly affected the reported COP. Please, Mr. Rossi, provide prototypes or whatever for independent verification.
    It really is starting to look like Broullion & SRI have moved forward with solid research and product development through a traditional path that is believable and, that Mr. Rossi is still unable to consistently reproduce LENR activity.

  6. Jacques Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 4:06 pm

    As I wrote yesterday (before the hydrofusion press release) it should now be clear to everyone that the poker player has called the bluff.

  7. Shane D. Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    So if the hot-cat is not ready for investors, as Rossi yells now, then why did he let Swedish investors, through their representatives (TRI of Sweden), observe and monitor the hot-cat in operation on Sept. 6th?

  8. Sven Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    A factor of 2-3 increase in input power takes the COP down to around 0.7 in this weekends published report, indicating strongly that the heat generated only came from the resistive elements used. As the elements used are however only standard resistive (like used in a tea boiler), it is hard to understand how there can be an error factor of this degree between standard current clamp/voltage measure and a true RMS measure? Was there a DC or high-frequency component in the electrical system that went undetected by the clamp/voltage measure? If so, why was it there and where did it come from? As the input power in the earlier tests was also measured using clamps, was it also incorrectly measured by a factor of 2-3? It is however good to see that there are independent investors making their own measures to verify the integrity of the technology. As Rossi him self said, “Let the market decide” and it obviously has done so, at least for the time being, with this press release.

  9. Ash Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    USD$10m from the investors….the reason for Rossi’s whole scam. This makes the ‘licenses’ he sold in Australia and Germany look ridiculous by comparison.

    Skeptics have long suggested that Rossi is faking the input power. Looks like he met his match this time. Of course, there are always fresh suckers. Now the original ecat is delayed, the hot cat is bunk…what’s next?

    Rossi’s latest note on JoNP is obviously an attempt to cover this bad news. Of course, if hot cat is not ready for investment, why was he discussing $10m and doing tests with this investor?

  10. Thicket Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    It seems that the Swedish investors are smarter than the German investors.

    We’re going through the ‘purification’ phase of the eCat fraud. Most pseudoscientific schemes go through this phase. Steorn, EEStor and Blacklight Power are good examples.

    The purification phase is when evidence of bogus claims becomes too overwhelming for many of the believers/supporters. They fall by the wayside, mostly silently. Some say their goodbyes. The odd one becomes a vocal skeptic.

    What’s left is a core of die-hard believers who have too much of an emotional investment, or are too deluded to accept the obvious. I can’t help feeling sorry for this group of perpetual victims and deniers, especially those that have forked over money to a shyster.

    • Francesco CH Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 4:47 pm

      Germans use a better instrumentation, that’s all.

    • Stephen Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 4:54 pm

      It takes all kind, at the end of the day. Let’s just be glad “it ain’t us that are them”.

  11. dragonX Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    Purification indeed. E-CatWorld is banning anybody that asks tough (but normal) questions. I got banned aprox. 1 month ago, for asking Rossi & co just to point out to us other professional names that are working with him (3rd party testers, business associates, etc). If at least one important institution or company will confirm part of what Rossi says about Ecat then, Rossi should have no problem changing skeptics into believers.

    For that “idea” I got banned from ECATWORLD. God forbid Frank the admin to acknowledge a good idea that will speed up make or break Ecat beliefs.

    Now, after Sept. 8-9 Conference, we have to ask: Are we better of now, after September Conference than before? Or worse?

    • MaxS Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 7:28 pm

      welcome to the club. I got censored frequently and mobbed away fom ecatworld, too.
      frank acts as if he is the marketing arm of Rossi. The Radical Rossarians do not like controversial discussions over there.

    • alexvs Reply

      September 11, 2012 at 7:04 am

      Greetings. I was banned too.
      Gegen Dummheit auch die Goetter kaempfen vergebens. (Goethe).
      i.e. Against stupidity even the gods fight in vain.

  12. Carlo Ombello Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    It looks increasingly clear that they made basic mistakes in measuring the current input. As Cures refers on http://www.cobraf.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=5747&reply_id=123487077#123487077:

    “Mi sa che hanno un problema. Il Rossi mi ha appena strillato (sono diventato sordo) che quando gli hanno contestato la misura prima è andato a prendere una lampadina da 60 W e l’ha attaccata all’alimentatore. Il suo segnava 59 W mentre il loro il doppio. Hanno controcontestato dicendo che la potenza era troppo poca. Allora, (la telepatia esiste) ha comprato una stufa da un paio di kW e i risultati sono stati gli stessi. Il suo segnava un valore vicino al nominale ed il loro il doppio”

    Translated: Rossi showed them their tools measured twice the input whatever source they were checking, a 60W light bulb first, then even a 2,000W electric heater, while his own tools were measuring current correctly…

    • John Milstone Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 5:46 pm

      Why should we believe Cures?

      We still don’t have a shred of evidence that he exists outside of his relationship with Rossi.

      The “secret NATO Colonel” from the “secret customer” has no credibility of his own, and he certainly doesn’t have any credibility from his relationship with Rossi.

      • Carlo Ombello Reply

        September 11, 2012 at 9:41 am

        Same on the other side… why should we believe the opposite from a dubious and hasty retreat by little known entrepreneurs? That to me looks more fishy than Rossi’s stand.

        • Ivy Matt Reply

          September 11, 2012 at 2:47 pm

          It usually takes quite a bit for folks to back away from what they expect to be a lucrative deal. What do you suppose their motive is?

          • Carlo Ombello

            September 11, 2012 at 4:15 pm

            They might not be motivated by the intention of investing, but that of mining his credibility, simple.

            I’m not here to defend Rossi, but the same reasoning/doubting that applies to him, applies to all the fish swimming around his venture. What just happened looks even weirder than any of Rossi’s known behavioural stunts!

    • Johan Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 11:06 pm

      Sorry, but I have much more trust in SP than Rossi. SP is the biggest and arguable the best organisation in performing experimental measurements. That is what they do. Therefore I highly doubt that they would fail such a mesurement and definatley not the way you claim.

  13. Al Potenza Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    If true, and Rossi faked the input, this is a departure from the usual Rossi method of faking measurements. He’s probably not falsified input power before, relying instead on deliberately faking the output power. As noted before, he did that with wet steam pretending to be dry, with placement of thermocouples in hot spots, and in one experiment by probably storing heat. And Rossi always refused categorically and with lame excuses, any attempt to get him to perform calibrations which would have verified the problems with the measurement method.

    Is there direct proof of the faking? Not exactly. But the famous video where Rossi tweaks the heater controls while saying “stable” and his constant refusal to do any calibration or blank runs speak volumes.

    Self deception? Not likely. That takes planning.

    In addition, how do you self delude that you’re heating a building for *years*?!?! That such a claim could be self delusion is hilarious!

    • Francesco CH Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 5:12 pm

      It is better if the Swedes change instrumentation, that’s all.

      • Loop Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 5:39 pm

        No they dot need to change the equipment they need to get their own calibrated AC generator.

        From now on there is no chance of using Rossi ac or even dc outlets.

        Francesco CH when you said “solved” I asked on ecatworld whats solved and did Swedish team reported that they measured 3 times lees input power with the variac included?

        But seems my question were deleted including your post with word “solved”

        • Francesco CH Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 5:56 pm

          The problem was solved through a variac AFTER that the issue was raised by the Swedes. I mean, AFTER the Swedes made their measures.

          For the rest: read the post written by Carlo Ombello.

          • Ghost Dawg

            September 10, 2012 at 6:54 pm

            Francesco, do you work for Rossi?

          • Francesco CH

            September 10, 2012 at 7:38 pm

            To Ghost Dawg:

            No.

      • Al Potenza Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 5:50 pm

        What the Swedes should do is to demand a test of the original, copper tube, simple ecat which is supposed to make 5 – 10 kW at around 100 degrees C. They should simply test it properly and independently, something that has NEVER BEEN DONE. I am betting that such a test would show that Rossi has been faking his results all along.

        The so-called hot cat is very difficult to test properly. The original is very simple to test. But it has never been properly independently tested! IMO, that’s why Rossi has gotten this far!

        Francesco, why has Rossi never gotten a single independent test until now? Why not give an original ecat to a university? Or have it tested under his supervision (but not interference) as a black box? Why has he never done this?

        • jfab Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 6:00 pm

          Why discuss with Francesco CH, he’s just a drone from Rossi. He’s programmed to dodge every intelligent question. Very well programmed, I should say!

      • jfab Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 5:56 pm

        Come on, just shut up Francesco, your attempts to look confident are so pathetic. Just grow some balls, man! Admit you lost, and move on, get a life!

        • Francesco CH Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 7:50 pm

          Thanks for the suggestion!

          • Al Potenza

            September 10, 2012 at 8:51 pm

            I don’t agree with the insults but I think it would be nice if you would respond to polite questions such as the ones I asked which you ignored.

        • Robert Munson Reply

          September 11, 2012 at 2:08 am

          We all lost. stupid!

  14. Mickey Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    Off Topic –

    This is so cool!

    http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120305.html

    Time-lapse footage of the Earth as seen from the ISS

    • dsm Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 10:31 pm

      Nice :)
      .
      I just could not help but notice all the lightning.
      .
      Wonder if we could do the Tesla & tap into it. :)
      .
      DSM

  15. dragonX Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    Like I said before… September and October will be make or break for Rossi. I was hoping for make but I’ll settle also for break.

    At least ECat story will not go on and on, torturing both skeptics and believers to the point of insanity. I bet that if this story goes south, Rossi will have to pay a lot of people for psychological damage. :-)

    • John Milstone Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 6:41 pm

      At least ECat story will not go on and on, torturing both skeptics and believers to the point of insanity.

      Stoern, Blacklight Power, Joseph Newman, and a host of others would disagree with that.

      Even John Keely still has believers, over a century after his death and the discovery of the various “tricks” built in to his “laboratory” to fake his results.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 6:46 pm

      Skeptics are far from being tortured. They’re laughing.

      The problem is that believers probably won’t learn anything from Rossi. They will continue to believe Defkalion is real without demanding testing. They will continue to believe that it makes sense for McKubre to test Rohner’s machine and give him support. They won’t ask Miley where his 200 watt devices are and why he has not shown them to anyone. And so on.

      • Ransompw Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 6:53 pm

        Don’t worry Al, notwithstanding Rossi’s apparant failure, you haven’t elevated your standing in my eyes. I think you are still clueless.

        • John Milstone Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 7:05 pm

          Because being right is irrelevant, right?

          • Ransompw

            September 10, 2012 at 7:11 pm

            Right about what? Al has only one opinion, he’ll be right when that opinion matches reality and wrong when it doesn’t. It doesn’t take much to have only one opinion.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 7:08 pm

          That’s very funny coming from a lawyer who fancies himself knowledgeable in heat transfer physics!

          Wait and see, Rans’. Every claim Rossi has made to having a working reactor is going to fall when tested. I doubt that will change your opinion of me (about which I couldn’t care less) but it will have to eventually force you to realize that Rossi is a crook.

          What’s different now is that the Swedes will insist on more tests. And they will test ecats which are easier to characterize than the hot cat. And if Rossi refuses the tests, it’s as bad for him as if the tests showed that the ecat doesn’t work.

          • Ransompw

            September 10, 2012 at 7:22 pm

            Al:

            I would require tests also. Why do you think I disagree? If Rossi is a crook, I hope he gets caught and have always felt that way. If he has an answer to all this, I hope he stops all the cloak and dagger business and proves it. I doubt he will.

            By the way, being a lawyer doesn’t make me an expert on heat transfer, but I have no idea who you are, so what makes you an expert? If you have technical expertise, do something worthwhile with your talent, posting here doesn’t qualify. I would have a lot more respect for you if I thought there was something more to you then a pessimistic curmudgeon.

          • Al Potenza

            September 10, 2012 at 7:30 pm

            What you should have noted, Ransom, and apparently didn’t, is that from the start, I always back assertions with either facts or a decent theory. I didn’t start with the assumption that Rossi is a crook. I expected that he had really discovered something worthwhile or had made an honest mistake.

            When I saw all the valid questions, issues and recommendations made on Vortex and Rossi ignored all of them, I started to suspect. Then, I tried to ask Rossi about it on his JONP web site. He never replied and instead censored all my questions! Honest people don’t do that.

            I don’t expect anyone to take my assertions at face value. That’s why I almost always support them with facts and reasoning.

            Rossi is now out of excuses for not having a university or famous lab verify that his ecat works. He says it’s worked since 2007! Forget the silly high temperature models. Forget the unnecessary megawatt “plant” made of poorly assembled 10 kW modules. Instead, take one of the 10 kW modules or better yet, an older copper tube ecat, and get it properly tested. That’s what ANY honest person would do in Rossi’s position at this time. I bet you he won’t. I think we will see much of Rossi’s claims inventory unravel over time.

          • Ransompw

            September 10, 2012 at 7:35 pm

            Al:

            We have been through this a hundred times. Rossi obviously has no interest in science, he has no interest in theory, he has no interest in proving LENR (or whatever you want to call it), so what would motivate him to do what you suggest?

          • Al Potenza

            September 10, 2012 at 7:42 pm

            No interest in science and theory? You’ve never seen the stupid publication Rossi calls the Journal of Nuclear Physics? It’s ALL science and theory even if all of it is junk science and idiotic theories.

            No interest in proving LENR? Then why give any shows in public at all? Private demos would suffice for investors. Why bother with all the dog and pony stuff?

            What would motivate Rossi to properly test an ecat independently? He’s trying to sell distributorships and probably investments. What better way to do that than to do proper tests that show the device is real and works? That Rossi hasn’t done it suggests he relies only on the most gullible. And he isn’t wrong, judging from the nut cases who say they gave him money without even a contract!

          • Ransompw

            September 10, 2012 at 8:04 pm

            Al:

            You just don’t get it do you? Rossi is allowing tests now for money, isn’t that what you say he won’t do? He isn’t going to do tests for science, never would, doubt if he ever will.

          • Al Potenza

            September 10, 2012 at 8:50 pm

            I don’t see Rossi allowing any tests, Ransom. I see him demonstrating a hot cat in his lab and having the Swedes ask him some embarrassing questions when they used his own instruments to make their measurements in his lab.

            That’s not an independent test. I don’t think there will EVER be an independent test of any LENR device by Rossi. EVER.

            For reference: independent means that some reliable university or lab investigators provide their own equipment and design their own test. Rossi provides NOTHING but the ecat. Not the power in, not the measuring gear, not the calibration, NOTHING other than the ecat.

            That won’t happen. I am quite certain of it.

  16. Ransompw Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    Personally, it seems very unlikely that input power can’t be correctly measured or that serious investors would withdraw over a mistake they made in measuring. Which leads me to conclude that input power may be the issue and might have been all along. Of course that is the reason independent tests are necessary and I for one am happy to see that we may finally be getting them (even if it puts Rossi out of our misery). This does call into question all of Rossi’s demo’s from the start. So Rossi, time for you to put up or shut up. Seems like shut up is highly likely at this point.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 7:14 pm

      Wrong again about the engineering and the physics, Ransom.

      Actually it’s quite difficult to measure AC power accurately if there are, as Rossi asserts, RF signals present or if the wave shape is complex.

      But measuring the AC power from a clean mains line using something like the Kilawatt instrument or a clamp on ammeter is quite straightforward and that’s what Lewan and the others did in early ecat demos.

      I think it’s most unlikely that Rossi cheated on the input power in those experiments. It would be way too easy to be discovered. I never agreed with the Australian skeptic who thought there were extra wires in the mains leads. Also too easy to find.

      I think Rossi’s art is in finding the best method of faking the measurement for each new situation and not using the identical method too many times. It’s a standard process in sleight of hand stage magic not to repeat the illusion many times because eventually, the misdirection stops working. Rossi probably knows that so each device he shows is mismeasured in a different way and he won’t repeat the public tests as we all know.

      This is tons of fun to watch. More power to the Swedes for insisting on their own testing. Whether they did it right or not still remains to be seen.

      • Ransompw Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 7:26 pm

        Al:

        If that is the case, then Lewan’s second test confirmed the reality of the ecat.

        And if it is so hard to measure, then maybe the Swedes just screwed themselves out of a good investment.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 7:33 pm

          No, Lewan’s second test did no such thing. You only hang on to your obsession that it did.

          Anyway, if that test was valid, why not repeat it with proper calibration to show that the method of measuring output energy was correct? Why not have it done independently? Rossi has a big credibility problem. He could solve overnight. You should be very suspicious that he doesn’t. The only possible reason that makes sense is that he can’t.

          It really is difficult to properly measure a 1200 degree ecat because you can’t use fluid flow calorimetry and even heat flux calorimetry is difficult at those temperatures. Sparging steam is distantly possible but extremely difficult, dangerous, and probably expensive.

          But testing an old ecat is simplicity itself if someone know how. Rossi was told how many times and always refused to do it or have it done. That’s why I think he’s a crook. That and his history.

          • Ransompw

            September 10, 2012 at 7:40 pm

            What is wrong with Lewan’s second test? The output wasn’t precisely measured but was good enough to prove LENR if the input is correct.

            Again, what would motivate Rossi to prove a kilowatt or 2 and a COP of 3 or 4 with his old low temperature ecat. What would that get him?

          • Al Potenza

            September 10, 2012 at 7:46 pm

            Sorry, I forgot what’s wrong with L’s second test and I am too busy to look it up. Maybe someone else remembers.

            What’s in it for Rossi to prove his old ecats work? It’s easy, straightforward and if done right, incontrovertible. It would give him some of the credibility he so extremely lacks at the moment.

          • Ransompw

            September 10, 2012 at 7:59 pm

            No All, I doubt you ever bothered. You concluded long ago on Rossi based on little. I’ve concluded recently based on legitimate information. That’s the difference between us.

          • John Milstone

            September 10, 2012 at 9:15 pm

            This is true for anyone making an extraordinary claim, but it’s especially true for ex-con Rossi, that any test using the claimant’s facilities or test equipment or hand-picked witnesses is not trustworthy.

      • Alain Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 9:13 pm

        finally, despite my initial fear, it seems simply a competition of loose technician.
        They simply measure they efficient current, not the power.
        Both applied a bad method, but the Swedish had better tools, so they get more error (High freq parasites)…
        If they had used filters with watt-meter, they would have realized that the HF component bring no power (because of phase shift at HF with inductive resistors)…

        loose… but surprisingly the reactor works…

  17. daniel maris Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 7:12 pm

    Well I know the sceptics are making a great deal of this – fair enough. But on the other hand, don’t other people feel that this has been a real watershed moment? We seem to have passed into a new phase of real investment, real test and real big name companies. You may argue that’s now the purification phase where Rossi is exposed. But equally you might say I think that we might be entering on a phase of confirmation. Maybe Rossi really is well in advance of Celani who is using a similar technology.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 7:18 pm

      What real tests and real companies? Except for this one event with the Swedes, I see nothing from anyone else. The German who sponsored the meeting has to be a crook– he features impossible overunity magnetic motors on his web site!

      Do you really think Rossi will allow anyone to test the old ecats which are so easy to test independently and properly? I bet he won’t. Do you think Rossi will ever involve a reputable large company like NI or Siemens in doing their own independent measurement? Of course not.

      • Ransompw Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 7:30 pm

        Al:

        He already did let someone test the old ecats.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 7:37 pm

          Not properly as you well know. Kullander, Essen and Lewan were fooled. They did not require verification that the measurement method was valid. That would have been easy, using the electrical heater in each ecat to calibrate the measurement system.

          They were told this many times by many people and did not insist on it. They did not require a repeat test with calibration. They did not do their jobs properly. They were careless and got fooled.

          • Ransompw

            September 10, 2012 at 7:56 pm

            BS. I understand your point regarding the tests where the output wasn’t properly measured, but Lewan did making gross measurements in the second test, good enough measures to verify LENR (if the input is correct.)

            Rossi has millions of reasons now to allow tests and he is failing, however, I see little benefit to him to allow another test of the April 2011 ecat. No one will pay him millions for that crappy thing even if Lewan’s results were confirmed.

          • Al Potenza

            September 10, 2012 at 8:34 pm

            Again I have to disagree. I’d personally pay him as many millions as I could get together for a working old type ecat. They were said to make between 3 to 10 kW on a table top from LENR continuously for months or years. That discovery would revolutionize the world. It doesn’t matter that it’s a “crappy thing” if it proves that robust LENR is real. All the rest after that is engineering.

            Anyone with smarts would pay MILLIONS for a working prototype table top kilowatt fusion generator. I am shocked that you don’t get that but then I’ve seen it before. Many believer types don’t seem to get how important it would be if there were robust power from LENR of ANY SORT, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME, no matter how clumsy.

          • Ransompw

            September 10, 2012 at 9:42 pm

            Al:

            None of the demo’s was for more than a few hours. You’d give him millions for an ecat that worked 6 hours like the one in the Kullander Demo? Assuming it really produced kilowatts of power and power beyond chemical. I mean it is still nothing more than a proof of concept under those conditions.

          • Al Potenza

            September 10, 2012 at 10:21 pm

            I’d pay Rossi millions for an ecat that made more power (very clearly) than could be accounted for by any known mechanism other than LENR, properly measured. It would not need to be practical. By the way, something that only runs a short time can’t exclude stored and chemical power unless the power level is truly heroic.

            Of course, I’d want some non-exclusive or limited rights to make use of the discovery in some way. I wouldn’t pay just to look. But I know someone who would. A cool million from Dick Smith. If Rossi got that, he’d be believed.

      • daniel maris Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 8:01 pm

        So you are saying neither SGS nor Siemens are involved in testing E cats? OK, we will see.

        I think we have entered a new phase. I haven’t made up my mind yet, but it certainly is a new phase.

        We are promised more detailed validation.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 8:30 pm

          Right. There is no evidence that SGS is involved but even if it was, unless they tested for whether or not it worked, it wouldn’t matter. A fake, dummy device would test OK for safety. There’s nothing dangerous about an electric heater.

          There is no evidence whatever and never has been that either NI or Siemens are involved in testing Rossi ecats. NI specifically denied it multiple times.

    • John Milstone Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 8:06 pm

      Madison Priest was a con man who claimed to have a revolutionary new device that could compress high-def video so much that it could be transmitted over an ordinary telephone modem.

      He managed to get companies like Blockbuster Video, Intel and General Dynamics to give him many millions of dollars for his “invention”.

      The only successful demos were done by Priest in his “laboratory”.

      In the end, it was discovered that his “invention” was nothing more than a DVD player, and a half-mile of hidden coax cable between Priest’s two buildings.

      Sometimes even credible companies that ought to know better fall for cons, even obvious cons like Priest’s.

  18. Sojourner Soo Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    Good for the Swedes. It’s about time somebody forced Rossi to let the independent tests occur. Clearly, the UNIBO/Cures tests are not credible enough for the skeptics. As for the SGS certification being self-determined, I’m surprised this is how Europeans do business. You must have a lot of terrible household appliance accidents over there. How do all those old buildings remain standing upright? It’s a mystery, given such evidently crappy, useless “certification.”

    That, by the way, was meant to be derisive. Was I successful in imparting the sarcasm? Probably went right over your heads. People see what they want to see.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 7:38 pm

      There was no UniBo test. Can’t you read? UniBo officials specifically denied testing anything from Rossi, at least twice.

      Cures is a shill for Rossi.

      Even if there was SGS certification, it might not mean anything but none has ever been shown. It’s all “Rossi says”.

      • Sojourner Soo Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 8:11 pm

        AL: UNIBO professors signed the reports yesterday, not Cures. You guys are all upset that they used software files that contained his nickname. That doesn’t bother me in the least. I’ve read his comments and he seems legitimate to me. He is certainly far more knowledgeable than you appear to be. And that’s my opinion as a social scientist.

        Quax: I was interested in all the other questions on your polldaddy results, which you did not show, i.e. the questions about global warming, etc. Can you provide this data? I think most of the people on these two sites are both from two groups of online fringe groups: the ones here are from that skeptic discussion page where they all hang like bats; the second are all climate deniers and UFO/alien believers. Such a strange bunch of people, IMO.

        As for me, I’m just a normal Canadian hoping like hell that we survive as a species and, to that end, that somebody can come up with a new form of clean energy that will shut down the Alberta tarsands and fossil fuels in general. I’m still hopeful that Rossi and DGT will produce something. I don’t think the Yanks will, for obvious reasons.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 8:28 pm

          WHAT UniBo professors signed for Rossi’s test?

          You mean Bianchini ? He’s no professor. He’s a graduate student and as the spokesperson for the university made quite clear some months ago, he does not speak for the university.

          • Sojourner Soo

            September 10, 2012 at 9:24 pm

            I meant Fabio Penon and Bianchini both, actually. I recall reading about him here or at the other site. They are both highly qualified, in any case. The problem, however, is that these are all Italians from the oldest university in the world. That, of course, makes them idiots to you, doesn’t it? American xenophobia and ethnocentrism is so tiresome. Now, just wait. If the Swedes come out and perform tests and then say it all works, you’ll all be back to slagging the Swedish scientists, won’t you? Just like you slagged them at the beginning. Somebody here even called Lewans a “fraud” on more than one occasion. You’re all rather audacious fellas. Somebody should sue your asses. That might learn ya.

          • Al Potenza

            September 10, 2012 at 10:23 pm

            Far as I know, Penon is not a UniBo professor. If you know otherwise, please show the evidence. Even if a UniBo professor is involved as an individual, that is not the same as saying UniBo tested the device and it bears vastly less weight.

        • daniel maris Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 8:29 pm

          They were UNIBO professors? Do you have a reference for that? I haven’t seen that before.

          • Al Potenza

            September 10, 2012 at 8:36 pm

            She probably means Bianchini. He’s a graduate student at UniBo and all he did was verify that there was no radiation from the hot cat. Of course there wasn’t. It’s an electrical heater and nothing more.

  19. buffalo Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 7:45 pm

    if a large company withdraws major major funding it does send up alarm bells .u would think the nytechnic guys would attatch a good old fashion power meter to the frikin powercord.very strange

    • Al Potenza Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 7:49 pm

      You don’t need an old fashioned meter. It won’t work if the waveform is complex. You need a precision wide band power meter such as this industry standard instrument which won’t be fooled by unusual wave shape:

      http://www.clarke-hess.com/2335A.html

      They’re expensive but can be rented long enough to do some tests for very little money.

      • Geeza Reply

        September 11, 2012 at 1:29 am

        Honestly it’s not even that hard. Just use an oscilloscope and visualise the waveform. Then your RMS meters will do the rest. But from what I can see there is high frequency in the feed. This will throw off measurements. Stabilise the input. You can buy lab grade Carroll and Mynell Varics for around $900 bucks.
        I just don’t get all the drama!

    • daniel maris Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 8:04 pm

      A few days ago the suggestion was no big companies were involved with Rossi. We’ve now gone to an acceptance that at least one was.

      • Al Potenza Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 9:17 pm

        Which one is that?

  20. RonB Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    I’m with the group that wants to get the household ecat back into discussions. It seems that Rossi has the idea to come up with “something new” that will require more and more time and the “something old” will be forgotten. What about the sign up for household ecat? Where does that stand?

    Francesco seems to have an “in” with this whole e-cat thing. What’s the delivery dates for the household ecat?

    • daniel maris Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 8:03 pm

      I agree that Rossi cannot “walk away” from the household E cat or indeed the 1MW. But I think there was a suggestion we would see a 1MW in situ working soon.

      • John Milstone Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 8:09 pm

        But I think there was a suggestion we would see a 1MW in situ working soon.

        He made the exact same promise last November. Nothing ever came of that.

        • Ransompw Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 8:17 pm

          John:

          He is obviously letting people (potential investors) test. Certainly, you can’t fault him for that. I thought that is what you have been saying he wouldn’t do. The fact he is failing is life in the big city. What more do you want? If Rossi has anything, he obviously has millions of reasons to make the results crystal clear, based on what I have seen, I don’t think he can. But, he will have a lot harder time attracting millions from here on if he doesn’t.

          • John Milstone

            September 10, 2012 at 8:33 pm

            I have to admit that I’m surprised that Rossi would allow any test that he didn’t control.

            I’m not at all surprised that such a test failed.

            I wonder if Rossi expected to be able to use his own test equipment (suitably rigged to give the results he wanted), and at last minute the testers brought in their own, reliable test equipment, and left Rossi with no option other than to either throw a tantrum and walk away (as he had done before), or let the test proceed and hope a miracle occurred.

          • Ransompw

            September 10, 2012 at 9:30 pm

            Do you know if the True RMS tool is appropriate? I mean that should be something a qualified person would know.

        • daniel maris Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 8:27 pm

          I’m not saying it did, but would you have said three days ago that he would ever allow serious independent testing of any E cat device?

          • Al Potenza

            September 10, 2012 at 8:38 pm

            No and I don’t think he did. I think he was depending on the low emissivity coating to provide an output measurement error. Something went wrong with input power measurements. We still don’t know if it was Rossi’s mistake or the Swedes’.

            In any event, what happened wasn’t independent testing. I doubt very much that Rossi gave them a hot cat to test. I think they witnessed a test in Rossi’s facility and didn’t like what they saw with the input power measurements.

          • Thicket

            September 10, 2012 at 9:29 pm

            I wonder about that as well Al.

            I doubt that Rossi gave a HotCat to the Swedes for testing, but I don’t know for sure. He’s been anal about strictly controlling any tests and I don’t think he’d break that pattern.

            Perhaps the Swedes were too clever for Rossi and did some unexpected testing while Rossi was running the demonstration.

  21. dragonX Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 8:22 pm

    Rossi says Swedes are wrong because if they are not, then he is a fraud or at least incompetent.

    Now is Swedes vs. Rossi! So the first encounter between Rossi’s World and Real World is already a conflict. Instead of being a confirmation, the encounter is now a fight. Nice… I mean nice for business, Rossi.

    Time to allow 3-4 independent tests with Rossi and his minions outside of the testing Room (make it outside of the city or even country, to be sure). If not, all credibility he has left (that is now in utter chaos), will go down the drain.

    • daniel maris Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 8:28 pm

      I don’t think it’s that dramatic. I think his credibility has increased a little over the last few days. What we need to see now is continued growth in terms of validation through tests and operations.

      • buffalo Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 8:43 pm

        mr maris? That dramatic? This takes the cake my man.this was not a dick smith 1mil back pocket change.the swedes was gona invest how much?

        • daniel maris Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 9:12 pm

          I’m talking in terms of the balance of credibility. That was a down push, but there were some big up pushes for me, including in terms of hearing about this serious testing.

          • RonB

            September 11, 2012 at 3:04 am

            Daniel
            I have to say I agree with you and his response (Rossi) was that of someone that just had to shake his head at the way it went down.
            Young engineers and technicians can make mistakes like the one that Rossi described. I’ve seen it done many times and had a few learning opportunities in the past myself.
            Rossi is right they need a varic with a watt meter on it. Since they are talking about triac’s it’s important to use the watt meter since the triac’s turn off at zero crossing.

            Usually the true RMS meter is used to measure voltage of the full AC wave.

      • dragonX Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 8:45 pm

        I wonder at what point in the future, will reasonable people consider that Rossi has delayed long enough without any reliable 3rd party test, to be consider not credible?

        My guess is that people are very hurt by current economic depression (it stopped to be a recession after 2-3 years) and by the policies of the current ruling elite and they will believe any “prophet” they encounter until proven liar. Rossi will build up his little army of believers and he will preside over many conferences in the years that will come.

        What I want is not another conference, or this or that from Rossi. What I want is something about Ecat that is not from Rossi and his bunch (Cures, some small town licensee pseudo-businessman, etc).

        Best joke at this time is Prometeon (licensee for Italy). I see that their website’s counter is still running, now being at 20+ Days. 20 Days until WHAT ??????!!!!!!? :-( I sure hope it is not until police comes after everybody involved in promoting ECAT possible scam.

        • John Milstone Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 9:39 pm

          I wonder at what point in the future, will reasonable people consider that Rossi has delayed long enough without any reliable 3rd party test, to be consider not credible?

          About 12 months ago.

        • Guru Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 9:49 pm

          Until what ?

          Until they started new WEB with real content, they will sell excursion trips to 1 million robotic factory (idle), etc

    • John Milstone Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 8:36 pm

      And before that, it was NASA vs. Rossi, and before that, NI vs Rossi, etc. etc. etc.

      You have to assume that a whole bunch of credible organizations are all incompetent or corrupt in order to believe Rossi.

    • Alain Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 9:19 pm

      If as said they simply used a True RMS tool a nd not a wattmeter, the swedish were wrong.
      That rossi did not have a wattmeter is loose too… yet he might know better and trust his setup…

      I don’t know if today technicians trust too much their tools that they forget basic electricity, or if they hired an intern to do the job.

      • dsm Reply

        September 11, 2012 at 12:36 am

        Alain
        You appear to be missing the real point. Hydrofusion were Rossi’s 1st great fans (sorry that was DGT), correction Hydrofusion were Rossi’s 2nd greatest fans & egged on by Essen & Kullander’s dubious endorsement, they signed up with Rossi to be the Swedish agents & also set up ecat.com & also set up the per-ordering of eCats.
        .
        These guys don’t drop bombs over a silly mistake. If you see otherwise then I believe you are someone who can’t see the forest because there are too many trees blocking your view (think about that a bit – please!) .
        .
        DSM

        • Alain Reply

          September 11, 2012 at 2:12 pm

          The hypothesis that Hydrofusion want to break, is absolutely possible, and it cames to my mind probably not much later than to your mind…

          now ask why they would claim a fraud, while there is only incompetence, and they would pretend to be even more incompetent that Rossi…
          Any student in electrotecnik in my time know that you shoul use wattmeter (those strange 4 wires meter)… either they hired an intern, or they hired an Infra Red specialist with no knowledge in electricity(possible), or play the fool…
          to..
          to ally with DGT
          to ally with Kresenn
          To break away from (from what if it is not a fraud?)
          to launch their own reactor…

          look like defkalion breaking after the 48h failed demo.
          They admitted they break away because they were not able to get Canada License

  22. Jami Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 9:33 pm

    I wonder when Rossi learned about this measurement. Apparently it was a day or two before Zürich, because after all the bravado, he seemed remarkably modest about his claims regarding the “Hot Cat” thingy. Needing more tests never seemed to be an issue before.

    As to how he blundered into this mess, I can only guess. It may be psychology – like a cocaine addict who should know full well that a blood test will expose him but still believes he’ll come out clean (rather common). Or maybe he, being a layman, had no idea that there are more accurate ways of measuring electricity than a radio shack clampmeter for three bucks fifty and he never expected somebody brought along by one of his investors to have such a thing handy. After all, his other investors apparently just came along to watch in stunned amazement and have their pictures taken in a shipping container’s doorway with a smug look on their face and their arms crossed in front of their chests.

    • John Milstone Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 9:38 pm

      It may be psychology – like a cocaine addict who should know full well that a blood test will expose him but still believes he’ll come out clean (rather common).

      That reminds me of a detail of the Casey Anthony trial (a local story to us central Floridians).

      During the investigation of her daughter’s disappearance, she told the police that she had a job at Universal Studios (which was a lie). The police knew it was a lie, so they asked her to take them to the office where she worked.

      She walked them into the theme park, and into a particular building, and down a particular hall. Only when she hit a dead-end did she admit that she didn’t work there.

      It’s amazing how far a pathological liar will go to avoid getting caught, even when there is absolutely no chance that they will get away with it.

  23. Al Potenza Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 9:38 pm

    As Jay2011 and I both said earlier, the correct instrument for measuring power with complex waveforms is this one:

    http://www.clarke-hess.com/2335A.html

    • Knoert Reply

      September 11, 2012 at 1:20 am

      Al, it seems to me that your knowledge regarding measuring electron flows is theoretical rather than practical. There’s really no need for fancy, expensive instruments which, in the wrong hands, can give – and usually do – quite ambiguous readings. With a claimed COP of 6, even the cheapest, oldest, most crappiest clamp meter would suffice. Regardless of complex waveforms.

      • Al Potenza Reply

        September 11, 2012 at 2:22 am

        That’s what all the overunity magnetic motor people say and do. They use cheap crummy DVM’s and they get tons of overunity. Strangely, when they use an expensive wideband power meter, the overunity goes away. Weird, isn’t it?

  24. Sojourner Soo Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 9:41 pm

    By the way, is it Investors Group (which is a Canadian firm) or Investor Group, referred to here in the Ny Teknik article?:

    “Investor Group had instructed the SP Technical Research Institute of Sweden , to monitor the measurement, and the researchers who attended measuring an input electrical power that was two to three times higher than Rossi himself measured.The measurement used the SP called True RMS instruments.”

    http://www.investorsgroup.com/en/who-we-are

    • Jami Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 10:08 pm

      No. The translation is wrong. The Swedish term “Investerargruppen” simply means “group of investors” – not the “Investors Group”.

      • Sojourner Soo Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 10:14 pm

        Thank you. I’d be really, really worried if it was Investors Group. Canada and its investors are definitely not interested in seeing Rossi succeed. Always be mindful of the tarsands and global fossil fuel politics behind this story. I’d stay far away from ANY Canadian, American, or Middle Eastern investment groups. I’d go straight like a bee to China, in fact. Come to think of it, the Chinese are the only ones with any real investment dollars anyway.

        • Jami Reply

          September 10, 2012 at 10:21 pm

          What’s wrong about Sweden? You may even sell them a revolutionary “free energy” device and they probably won’t copy it right away (mind you – they’d only do that if it worked – so no worries on that score for Rossi. Maybe he should go to China. But they still have the death penalty, don’t they?)

          • Sojourner Soo

            September 10, 2012 at 10:27 pm

            Texas, Kansas, Florida, and other American states have the death penalty, too. So, I’m going to ask you to focus on this question of the Chinese death penalty. I’m assuming you object to theirs, but don’t care that the USA uses it? I find that fascinating. As for the Swedes, if they can find indigenous Swedish investors, they should definitely invest in the E-Cat. There’s nothing wrong with being cautious and trying to exert pressure on Rossi to independently test. That is their legal obligation, in fact. Due diligence and all that stuff. But, your death penalty comment is just fascinating to me. Why is it relevant here? Is it a human rights issue? If so, isn’t it a human rights issue in the USA, as well?

          • Sojourner Soo

            September 10, 2012 at 10:39 pm

            Actually, it’s much worse in the United States than even I knew. What a barbaric country! Who knew? I just love this sort of stuff. C’mon Yanks, please justify this barbarism.

            http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/states-and-without-death-penalty

          • buffalo

            September 10, 2012 at 11:30 pm

            hey sojourner.are u an idiot?

          • dsm

            September 11, 2012 at 12:25 am

            Naw – she is just passionate about her beliefs :)
            .
            We understand this & take her as she comes.
            .
            DSM

          • John Milstone

            September 11, 2012 at 12:53 am

            dsm, there’s no reason to assume that the two are mutually exclusive.

          • Sojourner Soo

            September 11, 2012 at 3:47 am

            Jams raised the subject of the Chinese death penalty, implying there were moral reasons why Rossi shouldn’t make a beeline to China. I simply pointed out that the USA also has the death penalty. Then I posted a link to prove it, shocking even myself in the process. Don’t you think the death penalty is barbaric and a reflection of the supposedly civilized United States of America? Or is that issue a sacred cow here amongst the Yankees? What hypocrites. Again, I didn’t raise the issue. I merely responded. Wait until I start going on about evangelical Christians.

          • buffalo

            September 11, 2012 at 10:01 am

            sojourner.r u still an idiot? So if i shot your daughter for 3bux u would sing cumbaya and let me watch tv in peace in jail?

          • Sojourner Soo

            September 11, 2012 at 2:42 pm

            Buffalo: Yes, I would be perfectly content to see you rot in jail for the rest of your life, even if you murdered one of my family members.

          • Ivy Matt

            September 12, 2012 at 3:36 pm

            Soo, are you being obtuse? Jami’s point was not a human rights issue or a moral issue. It was purely a safety issue. He’s not the one who brought up the U.S., but fraud is not a capital offense in the U.S., so Rossi’s reasonably safe there.

    • buffalo Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 10:13 pm

      dont know man but the real question is why did these investors did not wait a while and re-chek results after rossi shoved their instrument on a normal lightbulb and pointed out their error.

      • Jami Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 10:23 pm

        I see your point. When it comes to accurate energy measurements, I’d too trust an Italian philosopher with a fake diploma and a clampmeter over a specialized Swedish agency any day.

      • Al Potenza Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 10:24 pm

        Maybe that’s another Rossi says and not what really happened?

      • John Milstone Reply

        September 10, 2012 at 11:18 pm

        dont know man but the real question is why did these investors did not wait a while and re-chek results after rossi shoved their instrument on a normal lightbulb and pointed out their error.

        So… you’re just assuming that the Swedes were shown that they were wrong and that they ignored it? Just because “Rossi Says”?

        Here’s a more reasonable explanation: The Swedes caught Rossi red-handed faking his results. That’s why the ended their relationship, rather than giving him another chance.

        And, Rossi is now trying to spin the story to keep his gullible fans and investors from seeing the truth.

        • dsm Reply

          September 11, 2012 at 12:27 am

          Yup, By far the best explanation !.
          .
          It is worth considering the damning timing of their bombshell !. Right after the conference ended.
          .
          Hydrofusion timed it for max fallout & Rossi should NEVER have let it get to this state unless they are so disillusioned they decided to drop thier bomb and get out. My guess is ‘follow the money’ i.e. they were wanting all their original agent’s rights fees back & Rossi wouldn’t agree – boom!.
          .
          DSM

  25. Guru Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    No, Investor AB

  26. Francesco CH Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 10:49 pm

    Just posted in the JONP:

    http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=713&cpage=3#comment-317421

    DEAR READERS:
    TODAY A BIG MESS IS POPPED OUT FROM A SHORT MEASUREMENT THAT HAS BEEN DONE THE LAST WEEK. I REALLY HAVE DIFFICULTY TO UNDERSTAND WHY SOME PERSONS HAVE TOTALLY IGNORED WHAT I CLEARLY SAID IN MY PRELIMINAR STATEMENT IN THE REPORT PRESENTED IN ZURICH: I SAID THAT ALL THE DATA ARE NOT FINAL, THE VALIDATION, THE R&D, THE CERTIFICATION OF THE HIGH TEMPERATURE REACTOR ARE IN COURSE AND THE FINAL REPORT WILL BE RELEASED WITHIN MONTHS. NOW, A GUY COMES HERE (INVITED FROM US) MAKES SOME HOUR OF MEASUREMENT, GOES AWAY AND A WEEK AFTER MAKES A PRESS CONFERENCE LIKE HE HAS MADE A PROCESS OF VALIDATION THAT TAKES MONTHES: DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE? I AM VERY CONFUSED. ANYWAY:
    THE EXTERNAL SURFACE OF OUR REACTOR IS 933 CM^2
    THE TEMPERATURE WE REACH WHEN IT IS STABLE IS 1050 CELSIUS ON THE EXTERNAL SURFACE. THE GUY IS ESCAPED FROM US BEFORE THE REACTOR REACHED THE DUE TEMPERATURE SAYING HE HAD SEEN ENOUGH ( ENOUGH OF WHAT?).
    THE MAX POWER OF THE RESISTANCE IS 8 kW
    WITH THESE NUMBERS ONLY, THE ENERGY PRODUCED IS ABOUT 17 kWH/H, WITHOUT CONSIDERING THE ENERGY FROM THE INTERNAL CYLINDER (WHATEVER IT IS), THE CONVECTION ENERGY ( WHICH IS A LOT).
    NOW: IN THE NEXT 2 MONTHS WE HAVE TO ARRIVE TO A PRECISE DETERMINATION OF THE MAXIMUM COP, BUT JUST FROM THESE VERY BASIC ANC CONSTANT NUMBERS ( INDIPENDENT FROM THE MEASUREMENTS OF AMPS AND OHMS) WE HAVE A COP AROUND 2.
    THE ITER PROGRAM, TO MAKE ENERGY WITH NUCLEAR HOT FUSION, IS COSTED 100 BILLION OF EUROS AND GOT NOT EVEN 1.01 OF COP.
    SO, WHAT ?
    IN THE FINAL REPORT YOU WILL SEE A LIST OF MANY PROFESSORS AND ENGINEERS WHO ARE MAKING ALL THE NECESSARY MEASUREMENTS FOR MONTHS.
    LET ME WORK, AND LET THE TEAM OF PROFESSORS AND ENGINEERS WHO ARE MAKING THE VALIDATION ANDE CERTIFICATION WORK. THIS TIME, ANYWAY, WE GOT FRIENDLY FIRE, IT APPEARS.
    ANDREA ROSSI

    • Johan Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 11:31 pm

      Sounds very desperate and of course unprofessional as always.

    • Loop Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 11:49 pm

      Oh my god, another spin, did he said that they fixed measures by including variac. Now we see that tester were angry and left the Rossi facility.

      Because of that I specifically asked Francesco CH, when he said “solved”, did he meant that Swedes used variac and measured 3 times less power input with the same level of temperature on the outer cylinder.

      Now we see that its just Rossi theory that variac would fixed the measurements.

      Get out!

  27. daniel maris Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 10:52 pm

    Rossi certainly seems to be opening up with the information flow. No doubt the sceptical constituency will claim it is chaff he is throwing out because of being found out. However, one might also see it as part of a pattern – that he is now revealing far more.

    On his blog he apparently is now claiming that his organisation is capable of producing 100 cartridges a day (30,000 a year I guess) – not a million, but significant if true. He talks about outsourcing the rest of the equipment.

    I hope the greater openness is the pattern now. Enough enigma already!

    • John Milstone Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 11:19 pm

      Is that the output from his “robotic factory” in Florida?

      If he’s producing 100/day, then it should be easy to provide one to any of the hundreds or thousands of competent, credible and trustworthy organizations for independent testing.

      But, he won’t.

    • dsm Reply

      September 10, 2012 at 11:32 pm

      Daniel
      .
      Did you read that carefully (nooo :) ) – Rossi started talking about production via outsourcing !. In other words he is saying things like …
      .
      “I can produce any number I want if I outsource manufacture”
      .
      “I have already identified potential outsourcing organizations”
      .

      Daniel, Rossi can say (rossisez) anything he likes & not be contradicted because the statements he is implying are un proveable either way.
      .
      Do you recall that a year ago Rossi said he could & would build a robotized factory to produce 1 mill home eCats for sale at around $500 – $800 each and he would have the factory built in 2012. Well, that was a Rossisez and here we are today just after his 1st dealer conference where agents who had signed up for rights to sell those robotized built eCats & were to learn about them. Neither the factory nor the home eCats or even a prototype got coverage !. It was in essence all about a ‘new’ hotcat.
      .
      But sez Daniel, “Rossi told us he was waiting on certification” & DSM sez “but Daniel he is an experienced manufacturer as is his whole family & he knew this well in advance and the reality is that here today he is using that as an excuse because he has not delivered and the Conference was supposed to tell his agents how they would run their eCat businesses.
      .
      Remember Rossi set up (via the Hydrofusion ecat.com web site) pre ordering for home eCats. Has it occurred to you that Hydrofusion may have suddenly realized just how exposed they could be to litigation while Rossi slips away because he has left such a complex trail back to himself ?.
      .
      DSM

      • daniel maris Reply

        September 11, 2012 at 12:15 am

        DSM,

        I do recall you talking about Rossi as though he had no backing from reputable/signifcant companies. Now you appear to be accepting that Hydrofusion are a reputable/significant company.

        To my way of thinking there has been some progress. Whether Rossi’s explanation of the Hydrofusion results is credible I don’t know. I await developments with interest.

        • dsm Reply

          September 11, 2012 at 12:23 am

          Daniel
          .
          I am not sure I ever said that ? – can you quote (noooo :) ).
          .
          I have said & will say again that the quality of the ‘agents’ was very low.
          .
          Also you again appear to be not grasping the situation. Hydrofusion were not investing 65 million Euros ! – it was (I agree) a serious VC company who said to hydrofusion, we will invest $65 mill euros but unlike you (Hydrofusion) we want ‘real’ proof before we part with our real money.
          .
          Hydrofusion had to do due dilligence & now they are holding up their hands saying publicly we are outta here.
          .
          Do not underestimate the purpose & impact of the Hydrofusion press report & it’s timing.
          .
          If Rossi & co were serious business people they would NEVER have let it get to such an impasse just after their dealer conference. There is now a bad smell & nothing is going to patch it up.
          .
          DSM

        • John Milstone Reply

          September 11, 2012 at 12:51 am

          To my way of thinking there has been some progress. Whether Rossi’s explanation of the Hydrofusion results is credible I don’t know.

          The Hydrofusion announcement is incredibly damning. They could have kept silent. They could have phrased it less drastically.

          This announcement is how a business calls someone a liar.

  28. dsm Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 10:55 pm

    Just a thought
    .
    It is very unusual for the original and very strong supporters & agents of Rossi to issue such a damning press release right on the tail of his 1st ‘dealer’ conference.
    .
    Hydrofusion includes (IIRC) several scientifically qualified individuals.
    .
    One possibility that I can see in their actions is that they had given Rossi a warning, again I’ll guess it was “we want our money back – all of it or else … !”, & they just exercised part of the ‘or else’. They IIRC purchased home eCat rights & again I am guessing they used the Zurich conference as a line in the sand & all they saw at the conference was Rossi creating a new distraction with a questionable ‘hot cat’ and no plans on the home eCat. Their observations and other knowledge clearly rang alarm bells for them. So, I am presuming there is more they haven’t let on – yet!.
    .
    It is very kind of our Admin Paul to think that Rossi may have provided more tangible information on home eCat activity behind the scenes, to the agents, but that is wishful thinking (Paul said he was surprised no questions were asked about the home eCat at the event). It would be near impossible to keep such information secret allowing for the intensity of the focus on Rossi & the eCat.
    .
    Their press release can only be seen as a very serious setback to Rossi because they may end up being another DGT.
    .
    Thinking out loud – DSM

    • Ransompw Reply

      September 11, 2012 at 12:53 am

      DSM:

      The home Ecat has always been idiocy. It is hard to believe anyone would think that technology could be imminent. Putting an unknown technology in individual homes? I consider that a pipe dream and will only happen when the technology is understood.

      The 1Mw technology made sense assuming it worked, which at this point seems very doubtful.

      • dsm Reply

        September 11, 2012 at 2:08 am

        Ransompw
        .
        Ransompw said “The home Ecat has always been idiocy”
        .
        Try to tell that to the people who passed $millions over to Rossi for the rights to become home eCat agents.
        .
        Rossi used the stats from the pre-orders (set up & gathered by Hydrofusion) as the bait to get his agents to scramble on board.
        .
        They are being burned & now we see evidence that Hydrofusion have real issues & have rebelled.
        .
        Do you recall all the ‘believer crowd’ posting here who kept repeating again & again, if there was anything wrong the agents would say so ? – Well Rossi’s best & longest agent just tossed a bomb at him right after the 1st conference !.
        .
        Guess what, some of those unbelievable believers are now saying Rossi’s most loyal dealer is the problem. This type of criticism was thrown at DGT when they had their falling out with Rossi. It is simply stunning to see that when the very evidence so many believers said didn’t exist (complaining agents) shows up, that it is the Agent at fault !. This agent didn’t just complain, they threw a bomb !.
        .
        DSM

  29. Roger Barker Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 11:40 pm

    Been a while since I posted here. I still see that Pops and Thicko are going hard out. ;-)

    Rossi is a lost case. I am fairly convinced he’s a conman/scam artist/charlatan or whatever else you want to call him. This is particularly sad as I believe there is some very legitimate research going on in LENR.

  30. Production Engineer Reply

    September 10, 2012 at 11:58 pm

    Still waiting for the 1 million E-Cat robot factory, the 13 1MWatt plant orders (third buyer not secret remember?). Bait and switch, bait and switch …

    Jed Rothwell on Vortex seems thoroughly in love with Rossi, (another Edison, wtf?) … kinda of weird for a guy who seems so well grounded and has put in all that work on http://lenr-canr.org/ . Maybe it is all BS that he is willing to rubber-stamp?

    Jed keeps dropping hints about some super-secret test of Rossi’s that he has witnessed or that he trusts a witness but NDA, blah-blah … is Jed Rothwell part of Rossi’s long con or just some kind of willing enabler?

    • dsm Reply

      September 11, 2012 at 12:57 am

      Jed gets passionate. :)

      .

      We all do about particular things & his seems to be that he heard from sommeone who knows someone who was told by a VIP that Rossi must really have something.
      .
      I still think Rossi has something but I have no idea what because all the opportunities to test his eCat gat walked away from.
      .
      At worst Rossi has the Al Potenza definition (a scam)
      .
      At best Rossi has the Daniel Maris definition (a world changing device).
      .
      But few reputable people seem able to endorse the latter in an acceptable scientific manner.
      .
      Bottom line is, if Rossi carries on as he has done, in 6 months he will have a hyper-cat & all the promise of the hot-cat will have gone the same way of the home-cat (remember that one ? :) ), the eCat before that.
      .
      Never ending story. Pied Piper Syndrome.
      .
      DSM

  31. Frank Zamburro Reply

    September 11, 2012 at 12:56 am

    Hi,
    What a pack of vultures, you are now resorting to distortion and creating issues that don’t exist. Your story about Hydrofusion is a complete fabrication, they have no investment in the eCat, they are working with Rossi, not shareholders, their input and participation is their own business. The genius who disclosed this Should be made to act as you claim Rossi should, I.E. Put up or shut Up. The meeting in Zurich was not about the RED HERRINGS you have all brought up, but about a set agenda, that all the guests were informed of.These Guests are not a pack of wankers like some I could quote, but people who arrived from around the world, and paid their own way,but I am certain that all you knockers are ” RENT A CROWD ” the moment every thing is proven you change coats and become fans.
    As to your mention of Mr. Dick Smith. check out his attention seeking endeavors , and we get back to . Those who can, Do, those who can’t become critics. I notice no more mention of the radiation argument.
    Frank.

    • dsm Reply

      September 11, 2012 at 12:59 am

      Pied Piper Syndrome alert !

    • Al Potenza Reply

      September 11, 2012 at 2:20 am

      Hi Frank. Of course there is no radiation. Because there is no reaction! Just an electrical heater. Wait and see.

    • Quax Reply

      September 11, 2012 at 3:04 am

      Frank Z., http://dicksmith.com.au is a brand name in Australia. Don’t think that attention motivates the man that much any more, that boat has sailed.

  32. Geeza Reply

    September 11, 2012 at 1:30 am

    Honestly it’s not even that hard. Just use an oscilloscope and visualise the waveform. Then your RMS meters will do the rest. But from what I can see there is high frequency in the feed. This will throw off measurements. Stabilise the input. You can buy lab grade Carroll and Mynell Varics for around $900 bucks.
    I just don’t get all the drama!

    • PersonFromPorlock Reply

      September 22, 2012 at 1:07 am

      Well, the Italians invented grand opera. In this case it’s “L’inventore.”

  33. JNewman Reply

    September 11, 2012 at 2:32 am

    It is good to know that whatever the news may be, everyone lines up according to profile.

    • dsm Reply

      September 11, 2012 at 2:49 am

      JNewman Yup,
      .
      As predicted so boringly before the conf. Nothing will change but the Pied Pipers tune :)
      .
      The conga line may have a couple more stragglers but they may rejoin in a day or two.
      .
      DSM

  34. Quax Reply

    September 11, 2012 at 3:26 am

    Sojourner S., unfortunately polldaddy.com sucks. You used to be able to apply filters to your data, but now they took that ability away and you have to upgrade for $200 to get it back.

    Still have my “global warming deniers” and “global warming adherents” filters defined but I am no longer able to apply it to my data.

    Guess, what happens if you want to export your data? $200 or go Cheney yourself.

    At any rate the data is inconclusive. Admittedly, I expected to see some cluster of anti-scientific, global warming denying, LENR adherents. Especially in light of recent evidence that global warming deniers tend to be more into conspiracy theories. You certainly occasionally encounter that type but you cannot see it in my data. Overall LENR believers tend to also believe in evolution and global warming. This adherence to established science is actually a bit higher than what you find for the hard skeptics (again not significant though).

    No surprises in the data, obviously e-catworld users also believe much stronger in everything LENR.

    The fact that there wasn’t anything interesting in the data is part of the reason why I’ve been dragging my feet on this (would have hurried more if I had any clue that polldaddy.com was about to take functionality away).

  35. Sojourner Soo Reply

    September 11, 2012 at 3:54 am

    Quax: Polldaddy does suck. Try SurveyMonkey, instead. I’ve used it before, but not for several years, so it may have changed. Thanks for the information about the fringers, both varieties.

  36. Omega Z Reply

    September 11, 2012 at 6:51 am

    Statement: “When referring to the CE label, it is important to note than in Europe, this can be done in-house. As long as you have a device that you can categorize on the list of official product descriptors (tv, fridge, boiler etc) you can stick the CE label on your product self-confirming that it conforms to requirements. Voila! It is certified.”

    This is also done in the U.S. But here’s the DEAL…

    You have to have your product Certified by a designated company that does this. Such as SGS among others.

    Once Certified you have to have a paper trial that can be checked all thru production. They then provide you a list of Official Label Companies that provide the labels Or in some cases go thru a process where it is actually stamped into the product.

    You may then place the labels yourself. Standard practice. If any components change they must also be certified. If the Change substantially changes the way the product functions, you must resubmit it for re-certification.

    Thus there are 10′s of millions of re-certifications every year in the U.S. alone.

    I only post this because the statement above makes it sound as if anyone can throw a label on & have a certified product. Do that & see you in court.

  37. Frank Zamburro Reply

    September 11, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    Hi Quax, you are ill informed, yes he does have some grocery lines on supermarket shelves, by touting the evil of foreign ownership, and imports, Great show, for a man who made all his money importing electronics from overseas, don’t do as I do, do as I say. Check out all his search for attention, believe me even if Rossi were selling millions of eCats he and all of you would still act like the fox and the grapes. A final word I watched the Zurich video & had no problem understanding, then again you can all keep defaming and insulting , after all you didn’t understand. Did any of understand when he stated he was not looking for investments, that he was paying for all the development, and that he did not want to drag across peoples bones,
    Get real with the fraud bit, or could you all not comprehend? he spoke in English.
    Frank

    • Al Potenza Reply

      September 11, 2012 at 5:24 pm

      Rossi said that he was not looking for investments for the “hot” cat. However, he has solicited much investment in his other “products” in the form of investors and distributors. I think anyone who gave Rossi money is going to regret it deeply very soon.

  38. Frank Zamburro Reply

    September 11, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    Hi Al Potenza,

    Get real, show me an electric heater that gets to 1200 celcius within the identical stainless tube dimensions of the eCat, please forward the brand name I would love to purchase one,

    Frank

    • Al Potenza Reply

      September 11, 2012 at 5:23 pm

      Hi Frank,

      You can buy tube furnaces commercially for that temperature range. Because they include decent controls and insulation, they’re bigger overall but the working parts are about the same as Rossi’s. Google is your friend.

      While you’re there, Frank, show me a working ecat being demonstrated independent of Rossi. Can you do that? How about a single customer who bought an ecat or tested an ecat independent of Rossi?

  39. Asterix Reply

    September 11, 2012 at 6:11 pm

    It seems to me to be very poignant that the downfall of the Hot Cat marketing effort was precisely the same thing that doomed Pons and Fleischman: accurate metrology.

    This also seems to be very common in the “ZPE”, “Free energy” and “alternative physics” communities.

    Measure the results many times in as many different ways as you can, using the best scientific methods, then announce.

    Instead, the tendency seems to be make one measurement that appears to confirm the most optimistic outcome, get some people with credentials to stake their reputations on your faulty data, then go out looking for investors or start selling licenses.

    As with anything else, the devil’s in the details.

  40. Frank Zamburro Reply

    September 12, 2012 at 12:12 am

    AL potenza,

    I know you can buy furnaces which surpass the eCat,
    so please go back to my question, and forward if you can a heater of the dimensions of the eCat stainless steel tube, I don’ want to have to use a truck to move the heater.

    Frank

  41. Frank Zamburro Reply

    September 12, 2012 at 12:42 am

    Hi Al,

    I sincerly hope that Rossi does not allow the devices out of his controll, he has the right senario, the moment someone gets their hands on the product it’s good night nurse, look at the Greek disaster, he is lucky, that he obviously kept his cards close to his chest.The only way he could possible allow testing is simple , he has to monitor each phase , ( Because all you are after is the secret) A simple solution, both parties check the ingoing power cable and KWH meter, that would be the end of all the accusations.
    I am sure you will all come up with something else.
    I wonder how many of you are party to the SEVEN UGLY SISTERS. Remember its’ not your money and BUYER BEWARE> Where were all of you when the banks etc. took us all to the cleaners.
    Frank

  42. Stefan Flueler, Zurich Reply

    September 12, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    If you’re controlling input power with PWM and a TRIAC to a resistor, it is normal to see too high voltage/ampere/wattage readings with conventional measurement equipment.
    To see the real voltage/amperage/wattage, you have to use measuring equipment which is able to do an appropriate integration, i.e. you have to use TRUE RMS measuring equipment.
    This could be the source of the different findings of Ny Teknik.

    • Stefan Flueler, Zurich Reply

      September 12, 2012 at 3:26 pm

      Update:
      If you’re controlling input power with PWM and a TRIAC to a resistor, it is normal to see too high voltage/ampere/wattage readings with conventional measurement equipment.
      To see the real voltage/amperage/wattage, you have to use measuring equipment which is able to do an appropriate integration, i.e. you have to use TRUE RMS measuring equipment.
      This could be the source of the different findings of Hydrofusion / Ny Technik.
      But I have to admit: Probability is low for this resolution, as in the meantime, the Hydrofusion people should be familiar with that measuring problem.

  43. Nancy Ye Reply

    September 18, 2012 at 9:54 pm

    Just curious, is there any way to design an isolated system ,the input is petrol or other fuels, using petrol electricity generator as input, can we then get measuring the input energy and output energy easier and less problematic?

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>