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Thank You Francesco Celani

August 15, 2012

Congratulations to all who endured the brickbats hurled by those posing as your betters. Despite the derision, the lack of funds and career-wrecking assaults, you have demonstrated the true power of the scientific method.

In 1989 it took no more than an announcement to create sensational headlines proclaiming the end of the world’s energy problems. In an incredible feat of self-harm, influential members of our society rallied against the intruding idea – an auto-immune response set to cure us of a revolution with the potential to change everything. From then until now, we have continued to drill expensive holes in the ground, levying a tax on every household, every business and the very air we breathe.

The scientific method is designed to remove subjective opinion from the equation, placing itself apart from politics and religion. And yet, the last two decades demonstrates that our institutions are as prey to woolly thinking as they were when a watchmaker set out to solve the longitudinal problem three hundred years ago. In the case of cold fusion, two brilliant men were broken, our gurus pronouncing them incapable of measuring heat, their ideas worthy of nothing but derision.

Despite hundreds of replications around the world, most scientists are unaware that the effect once known as cold fusion is real. In the age of instant communication, the smear campaign has done its job. Placed alongside tales of the Loch Ness monster, the subject is hidden in plain sight. If you want to be taken seriously, do not go there. Papers remain unpublished, patents rejected, proponents mocked.

Since 1989 we have spent trillions of dollars powering and polluting the planet with old technology. If we continue, we will spend trillions more cleaning it up. If there is the smallest chance that Celani’s demonstration is real, we must spend what it takes to nail the truth. Celani provides the blueprint. Describing his experiment in detail, he is sending a message to every scientist, every politician and every businessman – prove yourself worthy of the power you hold. Remove the blinkers. Here is the formula. Try it.

I want to emphasise my admiration for the scientists of this world. It is important that we do not lay blame at their collective feet. It is the politics of science at fault and not science itself. By placing too much power in the hands of a few, we allowed them to put theory ahead of evidence, masking the error with flat-earth logic. In a sleight of hand, some still argue they were right all along, that the effect was never fusion. Such an excuse is worthy of the politicians they surely are. There was cause to doubt their nuclear conclusions but in destroying Pons and Fleischmann’s credibility, we needlessly infected a whole field of exploration with an irrational subjectivity.

At various points in the belief spectrum, some will wonder why Celani’s demo is so important. Unlike Andrea Rossi’s claims, we are talking about a few watts over the input. What’s the big deal? With so much secrecy surrounding various reports, it is difficult to get a handle on anything of substance that would convince those with the power to effect change in the scientific and business community. This is not because all the papers and reports are rubbish but because we need something to smack them between the eyes. The eCat may be real but it is impossible to know at this stage. While there are many credible reports of successful experiments around the world, these are largely confined to papers and conferences infected by the irrational negativity surrounding the subject. It may be unfair but such results are invisible to the power brokers. Deprived of credibility and confident of their results, many scientists reserve an element of secrecy in the name of business potential. A demonstration capable of convincing the scientific community will have far-reaching consequences. Some will begin to wonder if Rossi might be right, others will pump money into the field like never before. No matter the truth or otherwise of any past claim, a single demonstration that proves the effect is as important now as it was in 1989.

Professor Celani is not an easy target. A physicist at the Italian National Institute of Nuclear Physics, his work is careful, his methodology open to scrutiny and his device open to view. Even so, we are already hearing objections. Until it is independently replicated, they say, the case is not proven. That is absolutely true. However, placed alongside the decades of evidence housed at lenr-canr.org, we can afford a little optimism. We must not let excessive criticism turn reasonable caution into soul-sucking defeat.

It took no more than an announcement to set the wires alight in 1989 and now we have what the attackers have been asking for. If they were as good as they thought they were, the keepers-of-the-scrolls could have been part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

Here is a public demo, created by someone who truly understands the scientific method. It comes complete with plans to build a machine capable of making a brew. Do not let the dementors blind you. You are better than them. Go and make that tea.

The Celani paper.

Posted by on August 15, 2012. Filed under Competitors,Politics,Tests & Demos. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

517 Responses to Thank You Francesco Celani

  1. Jami Reply

    August 17, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    On another topic. Has anybody seen the JoNP post “Christos Stremmenos August 16th, 2012 at 6:18 PM” ??

    I wasn’t surprised when none of the authors of Defkalion’s ICCF paper showed up in the publications of any scientific journal. You wouldn’t necessarily expect that from Cold Fusion researchers.

    However finding nothing but a reference to a bar/cafe owner in Athens when googling their names was a bit strange. I put it down to chance, because even really bad scientists usually leave a trace somewhere on the web. Mind you, it’ll not be on Nature or ScienceMag, but at least somewhere related.

    Now it looks like the “highly qualified and experienced scientists” running DGT’s “top notch lab” really ARE barkeepers. It would be almost funny if Daniel wouldn’t inevitably draw the conclusion that this doesn’t PROVE DGT to be a fraudulent bunch of scammers and George Hants wouldn’t be going one and a half step further, claiming that having served Pizza and Uzo in a bar makes you a much trustworthier scientists than having written a thousand peer-reviewed papers.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      August 17, 2012 at 5:28 pm

      Defkalion’s writings on their forum and now at NI Week and ICCF-17 seem lacking in any sort of scientific or other substantive information. Their equipment looks amateurish and there is no evidence that it does anything at all. Defkalion inspires no confidence whatsoever and never has so it’s interesting to find out their credentials are lacking as well. No class, those guys.

    • Bettingman Reply

      August 17, 2012 at 7:02 pm

      http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=426

      This is from one of them, I am not giving an opion on it.

      • Francesco CH Reply

        August 17, 2012 at 10:30 pm

        He is a university student at the Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, National Technical University of Athens [NTUA], Athens, Greece.

        (…And he signs with his name followed by “Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, National Technical University of Athens [NTUA], Athens, Greece” as he would be a professor there…)

  2. Pachu Reply

    August 17, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    At this point of things, the only thing that can break the fate of cold fusion is the CERN replicating the effect.

    We should go to CERN web pages and forums and ask to try it.

    Can we arrange something organized ? CERN Public contact info is:
    http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/Contact-en.html

    • Jami Reply

      August 17, 2012 at 2:49 pm

      Oh sure:

      Dear CERN,

      I love Cold Fusion to be true. It would do so much good for the world – almost like Santa Claus, only without all that mucking about with reindeer. So please, do some Cold Fusion for us.

      Warm regards…

      They did, BTW. Didn’t work. Surprised? Satisfied?

      • Pachu Reply

        August 17, 2012 at 2:56 pm

        Celani has given some LENR status update there some months ago, why do you think CERN ask for it ?

        Oh rigth you are a idiot, answering you is wortless.

        • Jami Reply

          August 17, 2012 at 3:07 pm

          I think we all saw the video (and were bored to death). But hang on – if CERN is so immeasurably interested, that they even “asked for it” – why do you think it is necessary to pester them with e-mails?

      • Alain Reply

        August 17, 2012 at 5:29 pm

        Dear Jami,

        We look at your evidence,
        and after discussion with Science Magazine, and MIT administration, we agree that it is not on our priority to change the physic and revolutionize the world.

        By the way, if LENR is real, we all will be fired for plain stupidity, because we had all the proof in 89 and rejected them because it was not matching our assumption.
        Our only excuse is that NASA GRC who had the best results, with huge energy produced without any statistical error possible, keep them in a drawer because it did not behave like we said it should behave…
        In 2005 spawar was nice to let us a chance, but there had been so many insults, voodoo science critics, books, and even courses using CF as the example of bad science, that we would really look stupid.
        we decide to wait for our retirement before being fired .

        in 2009 we agree with NAVY that Spawar LENr team should be shutdown because it was too mediatic and could send all of us in embarrassing situation.

        now it seems hard to deny, but who know if Martian exists on Mars, maybe they can save us in the next 6 month. we have nothing to lose…

        by the way, Celani is a bit furious about us, his ex-colleagues, because we fucked up his Nobel price about High Temperature Superconduction, claiming like CF that is was not respecting our (understanding of) physic… I just hope he does not corner us in Geneva, or we will be cooked slowly in a “Pot-au-feu” with the new release of his toy reactor.

        We are sorry for NI, but they are engineers, and they have the bad tendency to care of fact and less on theory, unless it works well. Engineer and Chemist really are not of the same blood as Physicist. We shoul have burned them all during the Inquisition, but too late.

        Best regards, and carefully not looking at
        your proposal and all the quoted articles. It is advised by the theory of Roland benabou, who is a very good help for us to maintain our denial, by groupthink and administrative violence.

        PS: best regards from Science Magazine and MIT Administration who help me with a charged gun, to write that suicide letter.

        CERN.
        ?-2013 RIP.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          August 17, 2012 at 5:35 pm

          Believers seem to think that skeptics are responsible for the failure of LENR to be accepted into the main stream of science and publications. That’s not true. It’s not accepted because it has never been properly demonstrated in a convincing way by reliable means in reproducible experiments that can be replicated independently. When you can achieve that, it doesn’t matter who believes it and who doesn’t. F & P were not able to do it despite the support of several governments and universities and the expenditures of dozens of millions of dollars.

          • daniel maris

            August 17, 2012 at 5:41 pm

            So you don’t think that MIT falsified the record when assessing F&P?

            http://www.infinite-energy.com/images/pdfs/mitcfreport.pdf

          • Al Potenza

            August 17, 2012 at 5:48 pm

            “daniel maris
            August 17, 2012 at 5:41 pm

            So you don’t think that MIT falsified the record when assessing F&P?

            http://www.infinite-energy.com/images/pdfs/mitcfreport.pdf

            I have no idea having not investigated the issue but my point is that it makes no difference whether they did or not. If F&P really had been able to do convincing cold fusion, they had years if not decades of support with adequate funding to show it in public. There was a huge amount of interest world wide by thousands of scientists who had no initial bias.

            If the effect had been convincing and reproducible, it would not have mattered in the least what MIT (or any other detractorsw) said or did. It would have been reproduced and, without a doubt, greatly enhanced and increased and developed.

            Believers way over rate the presumed power of skeptics. Skeptics can influence funding of large projects but there is no evidence whatsoever that F&P were ever limited in their work by either lack of funds or lack of places where they could work in peace. They simply did not deliver and that’s not MIT’s fault.

            Rossi and Defkalion have not delivered on their gigantic promises. Whose fault is that? MIT’s?

          • Methusela

            August 17, 2012 at 6:54 pm

            It makes a huge difference!

            It’s the reason why they were and still are pilloried in the press!

          • spacegoat

            August 18, 2012 at 6:45 am

            On reproducibility You are behind the times matey.
            See Hagelstein’s latest paper and contact him if you want a demonstration or access to his latest engineered nanors.

            “Believers seem to think that skeptics are responsible for the failure of LENR to be accepted into the main stream of science and publications. ”

            Skeptics also think that skeptics are responsible for the failure of LENR to be accepted into the main stream of science and publications.

          • CuriousChris

            August 19, 2012 at 8:34 am

            No Methusela
            They are forgotten by the press. not pilloried at all. and why are they forgotten?

            Because they never could replicate their own experiment.

            Spacegoat Do you not know what the word replicate means? It does not mean comes up with their own experiment and produces their own results. This is the issue. It has been stated countless times No-one can replicate another researcher experiments

            Maybe because they are too busy designing their own. It appears every researcher (except Focardi perhaps, because he is building on piantelli) is so intent on beating their own path that they cannot work as a cohesive unit and build one replicable test.

          • Alain

            August 19, 2012 at 10:48 am

            there are many replication, and few a identical replications.
            other less identical are anyway proofs there is a phenomenon.

            the basic of the psychiatric situation in media an mainstream administration of science is to refuse to see the facts.

            this is clearly explained as a result of groupthink and collective delusion as theorized by Roland Benabou.

            accepting new fact like spawar, iwamura, nasa grc, National instruments 10 experiments, (and the latest proposed at ICCF17) replications, would show they are stupid and ridiculous.
            they have good reason not to accept it, and the nearest it is to truth, the hardest the repression is from mainstream.

            as usual. and it is visible. open you eyes.

            by the way i don’t expect to convince patho-denialist, but lurkers.

            no way to convince a patho-conspiracist, convinced that hundred of team have independently frauded

  3. spacegoat Reply

    August 17, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    “True Skeptics are the throwers of stones. Pseudo-skeptics are the children on the shore begging others not to throw stones at their pet boat. They are the pathetic mewling kids who are happy to throw stones other people’s boats, but complain when theirs are sunk.”
    http://coldfusionnow.org/updates-from-iccf-17/

    Off topic post, but since a hefty portion of this site concerns these definitions….

    • Thicket Reply

      August 17, 2012 at 3:54 pm

      In the interest of balance, I provide the following.

      True Believers. According to The Skeptic’s Dictionary, an example of this syndrome is evidenced by an event in 1988 when James Randi, at the request of an Australian news program, coached stage performer José Alvarez to pretend he was channelling a two-thousand-year-old spirit named “Carlos”. Even after it was revealed to be a fictional character created by Randi and Alvarez, many people continued to believe that “Carlos” was real. Randi commented: “no amount of evidence, no matter how good it is or how much there is of it, is ever going to convince the true believer to the contrary.”

      Off-topic post, but since a hefty portion of this site concerns this syndrome….

      • Methusela Reply

        August 17, 2012 at 5:37 pm

        In the interest of balance…

        LOL. ROFLMAO.

        [ wipes tear from eyes - Canadians CAN be amusing after all ]

  4. Tom Reply

    August 17, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    Until there is one cold fusion device producing net
    power for one (non-techincal) customer this is all
    sake oil

    • Al Potenza Reply

      August 17, 2012 at 5:31 pm

      I never understood the fascination some people have with the supposed need to develop a commercial application and actually sell a device in order to believe LENR is real.

      That’s just silliness.

      What is needed has been explained here and I won’t repeat the details. It’s a single good test done independent of the inventor by a reliable *major* university department (not an individual), or a government lab or an internationally known testing agency with an established reputation.

      There is no need for anyone to sell anything to establish that LENR is real if indeed it turns out to be.

      • Methusela Reply

        August 17, 2012 at 5:39 pm

        Really?

        You won’t believe anything else!

        • Al Potenza Reply

          August 17, 2012 at 5:51 pm

          That’s a response or a contribution? Are you a charter member of the George Hants school of responding to posts?

          • Methusela

            August 17, 2012 at 6:02 pm

            My answers are short. Least I don’t waffle on too much and talk crap ala Potenza.

      • buffalo Reply

        August 17, 2012 at 5:54 pm

        no there is a definite need to commercialize b4 nybody takes it serious.the peasants r not interested in a flashy announcement by whatever university,much to the amusement of the oil elites.a lenr era will only begin when it is on the market shelves so the first guy to market is the hero we await.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          August 17, 2012 at 6:13 pm

          It takes years to properly “commercialize” something like LENR. It takes one experiment properly done by an independent research organization to demonstrate that LENR works. That requires at most one week.

          The idea that the only proof of LENR has to come from commercialization is completely ignorant. There are thousands of examples of products that were first introduced as experimental prototypes. Things such as microelectronics, chips, cell phones, solid state and LCD TV’s and zillions of other consumer items. And nobody needed them to be commercially available to believe they were real and had potential.

          But scammers LOVE to have believers think that commercialization is necessary. It gives them endless opportunities to delay and to lie while they rake in profits from investors and licensees.

      • TPBurnett Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 2:19 am

        If you consider the patent issue problem then the need for industrial secrets become the major roadblock to independent review. Normally, a company (without government funding or grants) would get patent protection before sharing the secrets for pier review.

        • CuriousChris Reply

          August 18, 2012 at 1:04 pm

          The patent issue? what patent issue?

      • Bettingman Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 7:33 am

        Al Agreed, I don’t get that either.

  5. buffalo Reply

    August 17, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    an announcement of a breakthrough by ANY agency,reputible or not, is just that,an announcement,nothing more,nothing less.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      August 17, 2012 at 6:15 pm

      It does take more than an announcement. It requires credible data– something we have never gotten from Defkalion or Rossi.

  6. JNewman Reply

    August 17, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    Speaking from a great deal of personal experience, proving that a new technology actually works is pretty easy (if it works) and getting it to market is very, very difficult. Somehow, people here seem to think that it proving that a technology works is elusive and difficult but that bringing it to market is straightforward. Ignorance is bliss, so they say.

    • Methusela Reply

      August 17, 2012 at 6:31 pm

      Depends on your target audience.

      If your audience aren’t listening then the performance is moot.

      • Al Potenza Reply

        August 17, 2012 at 6:37 pm

        Who won’t listen to limitless inexpensive clean energy? That’s another typical believer error. They don’t realize how truly stupendous the possibilities for LENR really are. Or if they do realize it, they don’t act as if they do.

        Virtually EVERYONE would love for it to be real. If LENR were proven real, everyone would listen.

        • Methusela Reply

          August 17, 2012 at 6:46 pm

          All I’m doing is waiting.

          I can wait for a while yet.

          You?

          You just can’t wait to decry everything.

          Why, other than boredom, do you find it necessary?

          • Al Potenza

            August 17, 2012 at 6:57 pm

            Is it OK with you if I dislike thieves and scammers who waste everyone’s time and some people’s money?

            If strong LENR like that claimed by Defkalion and Rossi exists, it’s *very* easy to prove it conclusively in less than a week at no risk to intellectual property or patent rights. That they don’t do this while at the same time doing senseless stuff at meetings and demos suggests to me that both are scams. I don’t like scams. OK?

          • Methusela

            August 17, 2012 at 7:03 pm

            Frankly, I don’t give a damn.

            You give a damn, so do something more concrete about it other than creeping around internet forums scribbling your opinion.

            Get off your ass and do something.

            At least Gary Wright is more ‘out there’ than you.

            You should be petitioning your senator, writing to government!

            God man, do something!

          • JNewman

            August 17, 2012 at 7:11 pm

            Ah, the weasel-word defense.

            “All I’m doing is waiting…”
            “I haven’t concluded…”
            “I’m keeping an open mind…”

            Come on, guys. You are convinced this stuff is for real and that there are no scams afoot. Fine. If it turns out you were wrong, then you were wrong. What’s the big deal?

            I’m skeptical about most of what passes for “news” here. If it turns out that I am wrong, then I will say “I was wrong”. Such is life. Why don’t you believers stop pretending to be neutral? I don’t believe most of you are. There are only perhaps two or three posters here who actually seem to be undecided. For the rest, I think thou protesteth too much.

          • Methusela

            August 17, 2012 at 7:21 pm

            No, I react against your absolute statements of fact :)

            The only sensible option is to wait.

            You got “skin in the game” or something?

          • John Milstone

            August 17, 2012 at 7:30 pm

            Frankly, I don’t give a damn.

            You sure bloviate a lot for someone who doesn’t give a damn.

          • JNewman

            August 17, 2012 at 7:35 pm

            Just what do you mean by “wait”? You spend significant amounts of time belittling and attacking anyone who criticizes LENR-related reports. Is that what you mean by waiting? I would think that “waiting” in this context is to draw no conclusions or form no opinions. You can’t possibly claim that this is what you are doing. You are at least as opinionated as the most vehement skeptic here and far more belligerent and nasty about it to boot. So please spare us your holier-than-thou lectures about the opinions of skeptics. Here’s an idea before you launch your next personal attack: why don’t you wait?

          • Methusela

            August 17, 2012 at 7:38 pm

            LOL.

            John ‘bloviate’ Milstone.

            I likes it immensely :)

          • Methusela

            August 17, 2012 at 7:41 pm

            @JN: Another self assessment. Amusing ;)

          • Jami

            August 17, 2012 at 7:44 pm

            “You are convinced this stuff is for real”

            I seriously doubt that. If they were, they’d try to participate. I would sell the house and talk my mother in law out of her last penny and lick Roger Green’s ass until he gives me even a single percent of his South Korea license. So, no, I don’t think they believe. Not really. They’re just defending an irrational hope which a significant part of their brain has already written off as a pipe dream. That’s kind of scizophrenic – not neutral. (Or they DO believe but can’t be bothered to get off the couch and actually use their exclusive insights to their own advantage – which would be rather stupid.)

          • JNewman

            August 17, 2012 at 7:44 pm

            Methusela, I truly hope for the sakes of those around you that your Internet persona is just that and not a reflection of your real-world character. Enjoy the rest of your day.

          • Methusela

            August 17, 2012 at 7:49 pm

            @JN: Likewise ;)

  7. buffalo Reply

    August 17, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    the ‘credibility’of any data from whomever will be torn to shreds as always by skeptos and threatened intrests alike.this is lenr mr potenza,a perpetual motion in the eyes of the establishment,a black sheep,very unlike lcds nd microchips and wind-up torches.there are people willing to fund its DEMISE if its real,nevermind its upliftment

    • Al Potenza Reply

      August 17, 2012 at 6:39 pm

      Total nonsense. If the credibility of the source is good and the data show a robust prolonged production of energy, it makes absolutely no difference what skeptics or anyone says about it. That’s the part some people just don’t get. I have no idea why they don’t. Not to get this is simply moronic.

      In addition, nobody gives a sh*t what anonymous authors say on an obscure web site like this one or any of the other dozen or so “ecat” related sites.

      The problem has never been the skeptics, MIT or anyone else. The problem has been that the proponents of LENR can’t show that it works robustly and usefully. Defkalion and Rossi have been told precisely how to prove that their technology is real. The problem isn’t the skeptics. It’s that Defkalion and Rossi consistently refuse to take the steps necessary to prove that they really have what they say. They have dozens of idiotic and incredible excuses. But the believers keep believing. It’s pretty amazing.

      • Dale G. Basgall Reply

        August 17, 2012 at 7:26 pm

        Al your statement ” If the credibility of the source is good and the data show a robust prolonged production of energy, it makes absolutely no difference what skeptics or anyone says about it.” is exactly true.

        Rossi made the claims, not us the public, Defkalion made claims also subsequent Rossi’s, so if either had demonstrated any product they claimed to have no one could be considered a skeptic or believer.

        Things that require belief are simply perceptions anyway and if they become factual they are an awareness, belief is a personal issue and skeptics are on the other end of the axis from belief.

        Further down the comment you stated “Defkalion and Rossi have been told precisely how to prove that their technology is real.”

        The technology that Mr. Rossi has claimed in origin, Defkalion followed up and also claimed they had been working on the same type of technology so in fact it is becoming very clear that neither had enough research accomplished to provide factual results. The important part here to me is that “both” entities have proven without doubt that they made claims on no more than a hunch,and neither had what they claimed at the time they claimed it.

        I don’t think that’s being a skeptic at all, just a direct observation of facts that have transmutated from claims into investment capital. Actually if we call this a scam, not the LENR science but the claims Rossi and Defkalion had made in origin, makes a person wonder what possibly the goal of the two was by doing that?

      • lcd Reply

        August 17, 2012 at 7:48 pm

        al question what will you do with the knowledge it is real if no product is ready to ship and how does tha help rossi/dgt

        • Al Potenza Reply

          August 17, 2012 at 7:56 pm

          I don’t understand the question. Can you elaborate on it please?

          • LCD

            August 19, 2012 at 8:21 pm

            If you owned a company who was getting significant but unreliable control of a LENR reaction, would you publicize that to the world or just continue working on your own with your own private investors?

  8. buffalo Reply

    August 17, 2012 at 7:20 pm

    i dnt knw whats scarier, scam,or suppressd,ridiculed genuine phenomena.because if its a scam then its a very well co-ordinated one that goes to high places,a surfing scam,surfing on a wave of uncertainty.

    • Mahron - A4 B2 Reply

      August 17, 2012 at 7:52 pm

      suppressed would be definitely the scariest in my opinion. The amount of control required to do that in the shadows creeps me out just thinking of it.

      Ridiculed genuine would be a slap in the face to trust in science and scientists.

      There is also the massive incompetence theory. In that case half of us would need to go and apologize to georgehants, which is also scary.

  9. buffalo Reply

    August 17, 2012 at 7:36 pm

    lets organize a class action protest,the people demand that mr rossi and defk release an immediate proof to them.such a protest,if large enuf, will suck in the media attention big time.the protest must continue until a proof is handed over to ‘us’

  10. Harry Perini Reply

    August 17, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    Defkalion Green Technologies recently presented data and business plans about Hyperion cold fusion device at NIWeek Conference, an annual gathering of developers, scientists, decision makers, and engineers, among many others in the hope to share trends and developments related to new technologies. The presentation about Hyperion was very much applauded by the audience in Austin, Texas. It is good to know that Defkalion GT sent its delegation despite the latest news that their operations in Greece had closed down mainly due to lack of funding. DGT disclosed that they will be moving their operations to Vancouver, Canada. DGT is a possible competitor of Andrea Rossi’s e-cat LENR technology.

    http://andrearossiecat.com/andrea-rossi/defkalion-gt-discusses-hyperion-cold-fusion-device

    • Thicket Reply

      August 17, 2012 at 8:40 pm

      I reviewed the Defkalion presentation. I laughed a number of times. Here’s my irreverent synopsis.

      ——————————————–
      * You must like us because we were ‘heavily inspired by nature.’

      * We don’t care about cold fusion/LENR theories, but we’ll tell you about our theories anyway because we needed something to talk about.

      * We like to use fancy terms such as ‘nuclear active environment’ (NAE), ‘Rydberg state hydrogen’ (RSH), Debye temperature, nucleosynthesis and isoparabolic. We could’ve used simpler terms but we wanted to impress the rubes.

      * We use sophisticated, high-tech explanations such as certain nickel isotopes are ‘willing to participate in a LENR reaction’ while one isotope isn’t.

      * We use ‘agents’ to help our hydrogen survive the journey to the ‘nuclear active environment’.

      * Our hydrogen disguises itself as a neutron to overcome that nasty impediment known as the Coulomb barrier. Damned if we know how this happens, but that’s our story and we’re sticking to it.

      * We know that the transmutations we claim emit gamma radiation but we couldn’t find any. No problem. We surmise that the gamma radiation was absorbed by ‘heavy electrons’. That’s our story and we’re sticking to it.

      * We used third labs and institutes for developing Hyperion materials. Sorry, we’re not going to tell you who helped us. Ummmm… except for National Instruments.

      * We name-dropped National Instruments because they organized this conference. It increases our credibility. That’s ok since we bought some stuff from them and they showed us how to use it.

      * We know that folks like to see metal analyses before and after a Hyperion run to demonstrate that transmutation has taken place. We happily provide that information in Tables II and III. We rely on your stupidity to not notice that the before and after results were from TWO DIFFERENT RUNS (#23, #25). After all, if we showed before and after results from the same run, and they were identical, you wouldn’t have been impressed.

      * We added some nice pictures. We also included some cool references.

      * Yeah, we know that the presentation was bullshit scientific babble and unsubstantiated claims, but hey, we’re frauds after all.

      • Jami Reply

        August 17, 2012 at 8:49 pm

        ROFL

      • Al Potenza Reply

        August 17, 2012 at 9:08 pm

        I love it. I noticed as you did, that the only name Defkalion dropped was NI’s. They’ve had lots of tests by other labs and are collaborating with them and they’ve sent stuff to Greek regulatory agencies but they aren’t dropping the names of those. I bet it’s because they don’t exist. As for NI, Defkalion uses LabView and presented at the NI conference which was not refereed and at which essentially any LabView user could make a presentation. That’s convincing of anything?

        • John Milstone Reply

          August 17, 2012 at 9:26 pm

          Microsoft is currently putting on a free seminars for software developers, where they will be pushing Windows 8. Anyone who shows up will get a free copy of Win8 and the latest software development tools.

          If I go to that seminar and Microsoft gives me a copy of their tools, does that mean I can claim that Microsoft endorses whatever I do with the free tools they provided?

          • dsm

            August 18, 2012 at 5:20 am

            Let me know if anyone at all shows up to a Win 8 MS developer conference LOL !.
            .
            DSM

      • spacegoat Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 6:59 am

        DGT stated they were not scientists by profession.
        There is only humour in the presentation for hardened pathoskeptics. Perhaps it is anxiety based humour as their beloved belief in establishment science and establishment management of science crumbles.

        You guys already admitted commercialization takes time.

        Therefore ordinary skeptics will continue to wait a little longer

      • Bettingman Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 7:41 am

        Al, regarding: “We surmise that the gamma radiation was absorbed by ‘heavy electrons’.”

        You do not think that this is possible? As I recall this is also a part of the Widom Larsen Theorie and I was not aware that it is regarded as not being possible.

  11. daniel maris Reply

    August 17, 2012 at 8:06 pm

    J Newman,

    It’s not weasel words to say “wait and see” when bodies like NASA, DARPA, EU REsearch and Innovation Directorate, NI and SRI indicate through words and deeds that LENR is almost certainly a real phenomenon.

    In those circumstances it is perfectly rational to await developments in a hopefully expectant frame of mind, ready to concede nevertheless that there is an outside chance this will all come to nothing.

    • JNewman Reply

      August 17, 2012 at 8:30 pm

      It is certainly rational to await developments. They will surely come to pass whether you wait for them or not and will occur regardless of your attitude about them. Based on your utterly subjective and presumptuous views on the roles of various government and corporate entities, your optimism is well-founded.

      Unfathomably to you, my assessment of the same information is considerably less sanguine and I therefore await developments with lower expectations and a skeptical frame of mind, ready to concede nevertheless that there is an outside chance that this will all come to something.

      So, apparently, just like you, I have no real opinion on any of this. I am pleased that we agree.

      • John Milstone Reply

        August 17, 2012 at 9:21 pm

        It is certainly rational to await developments.

        We’ve been waiting for over 18 months on Rossi, and over a year on DGE, and neither one has produced any credible developments in that time. If anything, they look less credible than they did when they first started hyping their claims.

        You can wait for Rossi and DGE. Eventually, you’ll get tired of waiting and realize that they are frauds. How long it takes is a direct measurement of your gullibility.

        • daniel maris Reply

          August 17, 2012 at 9:47 pm

          I’ve already made clear that for me Autumn 2012 is really the make or break period for Rossi. He’s given himself a deadline of around July 2013 for starting production of the home E Cat. We ought to be seeing all the signs of that coming to fruition by Autumn 2012.

          • John Milstone

            August 17, 2012 at 9:52 pm

            Blacklight Power claimed to be “4 months away” from selling a residential heater… in 1999.

            BLP claimed to have a 50KW device, with independent confirmation, in 2008. There hasn’t been a shred of evidence that they actually have or had such a device.

            Why would Rossi be held to a more stringent standard than BLP?

            True Believers don’t allow failure after failure to interfere with their True Belief.

          • CuriousChris

            August 19, 2012 at 8:59 am

            Both DGT and Rossi make deadlines, they then make reasons up for missing those deadlines and make new ones up.

            For some reason some people just keep on accepting those changed deadlines.

            Actually I am mistaken. Rossi comes up with excuses DGT just clams up and shuts down their forum. lest people keep discussing their failure to meet self imposed deadlines.

  12. buffalo Reply

    August 17, 2012 at 8:57 pm

    well lets ask ourselves this question.if we in this room each had our own versions of patented lenr devices,would we behave as rossi,defk?blacklight co. has certainly gotten 3rd party validifications,more than is necessary for their CIHT.yet even that didnt seem to satisfy a general skepticisms

    • Al Potenza Reply

      August 17, 2012 at 9:03 pm

      BLP has presented superficial examinations by people who are mostly old and no longer affiliated with the institutions BLP is trying to claim a relationship to. It is not convincing because it is not replicable data and it does not explain the entire BLP cycle. Even if they have an interesting fuel which makes some energy, they don’t say anywhere how much energy it takes to produce the fuel.

      This is similar to when Steorn trotted out three engineers with appropriate degrees and showed them some data they originally approved as demonstrating overunity for Steorn’s magnetic motor. Later on, two became silent and the third recanted his endorsement. None were ever properly interviewed about the issue.

      What would I do if I had what Defkalion and Rossi claim to have? I would take the device as a black box and allow it to be tested independently by a major lab or university department officially as a department. I or appointed representatives would stay with the device at all times to be sure no secrets were revealed but none of use would interfere with the test procedures or participate in the actual test.

      BTW, BLP has NOT ever done that, as far as I know, even for the existing “fuel” much less have they shown the entire production cycle for that fuel. As someone else noted, they went from a 50 kW generator to at most a few watts over three years. That convincing to you?

      As ALWAYS, the problem is not the skeptics or the skepticism. It’s that the proponents don’t perform convincingly what they say they can do.

      • daniel maris Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 1:01 am

        … an odd way to scam…going from Kws to Milliwatts.

        • John Milstone Reply

          August 18, 2012 at 12:27 pm

          BLP is only “odd” in that they have burned through so much money ($60 Million, last I heard) for so long without any actual progress at all and no complaints from the investors.

          I wouldn’t be astonished if it was something other than a simple investment scam. Maybe it’s a front for something else. That something else could be the CIA, or a money-laundering operations.

          However, it’s clear that they aren’t actually developing a “hydrino-based” reactor.

    • John Milstone Reply

      August 17, 2012 at 9:13 pm

      Re: Blacklight Power

      In 2008, they issued a press release claiming that they had built, and had independently tested, a 50,000 Watt reactor. (LINK)

      Now, they ignore that claim, and boast about having a 3 milliwatt device.

      Why should we believe anything they say when they can’t even produce the device they claimed to have four years ago, and their current claims are 16 million times smaller than their earlier claims?

    • John Milstone Reply

      August 17, 2012 at 9:18 pm

      buffalo, to answer your specific question:

      If I had a working LENR device, I might go public and let credible independent testing organizations test it to their heart’s content. That would prove or disprove my claims very quickly.

      Or, I might keep quiet about it while I worked on commercializing it. The first you would hear of it would be when I was ready to release it, at which time I would let credible independent testing organizations test it to their heart’s content. You could then base your buying decision on these credible, independent testing results.

      What I would not do is whip up all sorts of publicity, make extravagant claims (secret testing, secret customers, etc, etc.) while at the same time refusing to actually provide any real evidence that I had a working device.

      That last option is what a con man would do to try to convince people that he had a working device when in fact he didn’t.

  13. buffalo Reply

    August 17, 2012 at 9:38 pm

    mm.now let me ask u guys another question.if u was bankrolled by an oil or gas entity,or even a solar entity,heck even a hydro entity,would u b willing to part with a few bux to ensure a succesful lenr device never hit the spotlight

    • John Milstone Reply

      August 17, 2012 at 9:49 pm

      If LENR is as easy and cheap as the True Believers claim, it would have been rediscovered over and over all over the world. It would be impossible to suppress.

      To believe the vast conspiracy theories, you have to believe that every government in the world, and every company in the world all share the same common self-interest of suppressing unlimited free energy.

      All it would take is one government or company with different self-interests to destroy any such world-wide conspiracy. And there are many such governments and companies.

      • dsm Reply

        August 17, 2012 at 11:06 pm

        Spot on John.

        .

        The problem we are seeing here has been stated so often but it rarely changes. That is that many of us have a great ‘dream’ and it is an incredibly powerful dream. Rossi has tapped it.
        .
        Belief in LENR is good but it has become intensely religious to some people.
        .
        Criticizing Rossi and his behavior gets incorrectly reinterpreted as an attack on this cherished dream.
        .
        One observation that we can’t escape is the correlation between the intensity of emotion about LENR and Rossi and the readiness to believe conspiracies abound, against both these (LENR & Rossi).
        .
        But when you ask any of these conspiracy theorists to explain why Nth Korea or China or Japan or Iran or Pakistan etc: would join western counties to try to suppress this anticipated abundant new energy they never reply (because there is no reply).
        .
        It was pretty well known that while the USA was in a global confrontation with the USSR, that conspiracy theories by US citizens against their own government, were minimal but once the USSR collapsed, Poland rebelled, the Berlin wall fell, conspiracy theories got so bad that the us govt found itself fighting militias in the continental USA. Since then the most effective way to keep this problem at bay is to keep resurecting new global enemies (Gadaffi, Manuel Noriega, Saddam Hussien, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Kim Il Sung – Kim Jong Il – Kim Jong Un – Global Terror: Osama Bin Laden etc: etc: etc: )
        .
        We humans are an entertaining lot :)
        .
        DSM

        • daniel maris Reply

          August 18, 2012 at 12:52 am

          Hmmmm…I think we are entitled to think LENR is probably a real phenomenon if NASA, DARPA, the EU, SRI, NI and many other entities think it is…including professorial specialists in the field.

          It’s more irrational to think it can’t possibly be real.

          • dsm

            August 18, 2012 at 5:16 am

            Daniel
            .
            Where in my post did I say LENR wasn’t real ?
            .
            You are amazing at what you read into what was not said !. But you truly illustrate the phenomenon of how someone with a focus can warp other discussions to fit in with ideas or thoughts not actually expressed.
            .
            DSM
            (did I not state “Belief in LENR is good” ! ? )

        • John Milstone Reply

          August 18, 2012 at 4:54 pm

          But when you ask any of these conspiracy theorists to explain why Nth Korea or China or Japan or Iran or Pakistan etc: would join western counties to try to suppress this anticipated abundant new energy they never reply (because there is no reply).

          An even better example is Israel. Their enemies fund themselves with oil money. If Israel could collapse the oil market, they would devastate their enemy’s economies, and with it, their ability to threaten Israel and the rest of the world.

          Israel also has first-rate scientists, researchers and engineers. They would be more likely than just about anyone else to “figure out” LENR and to turn it into practical devices.

          But, none of that matters to people who believe in conspiracy theories.

      • Ransompw Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 12:21 am

        Actually, being cheap doesn’t necessarily mean easy. It may be very hard in that it requires a very specific set of conditions which wouldn’t be achieved often especially in a low technology society.

        However, once this specific set of conditions is understood, it may be extrordinarily cheap for an advanced technology to make and thus becomes very easy.

        Your continual reference to this scenario as evidence of your position is just flat out dumb. It could turn out to be correct but the fact that LENR hasn’t been discovered by the past societies says absolutely nothing about it.

        • daniel maris Reply

          August 18, 2012 at 2:07 am

          Absolutely right.

          NASA are very good at using the slingshot energy of other celestial bodies to propel their spacecraft. It costs nothing to use that energy. But it ain’t half difficult to get to the point where you can use that energy.

      • daniel maris Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 12:59 am

        I have NEVER heard an LENR researcher describe harnessing LENR as “easy”. There seem to be a number of key variables that are difficult to control and the nature of the material/the way material is presented seems to be crucial.

        You have to explain why, if AMOCO scientists decided that cold fusion was real when they replicated experiments, AMOCO did nothing with that knowledge (or so it would seem). You have to explain why MIT has been accused of falsifying the results of their F&P replications. That’s just a couple of things you have to explain.

    • DvH Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 7:37 am

      if the number of bux is large enough: yes.

  14. buffalo Reply

    August 17, 2012 at 10:57 pm

    true true mr milestone however lets hope a future device might be able to trigger such a worldwide frenzy.i,l be leaping on the bandwagon and ‘borrowing’ info for my own patented version of coz,hey at least im honest

  15. Dale G. Basgall Reply

    August 18, 2012 at 6:48 am

    If Defkalion watched a presentation given by Rossi then formed a group to investigate and go forward in development from the disclosures and now claim to have a product a year later it cannot be that difficult to reproduce a LENR effect.

    It seems unlikely that the disclosures were information intended to perpetuate a scam of any kind by either Rossi or Defkalion. It seems to easy, Rossi discloses to Defkalion and then Defkalion runs their own program to develop what had been disclosed and developed it into a product form in a year.

    More than likely Rossi believed something could be extracted from what he claimed at the time to have invented. I can only speculate dishonesty based on the approach to disclosure at the public level.

    Dishonesty on the part of Mr. Rossi, I feel that he had seen a demonstration and the demonstrator abeted Rossi into disclosure. That person was brilliant and knew by disclosing it to Mr. Rossi that Rossi would run with it. Mr. Rossi then disclosed the same scenario to Defkalion and then they ran with it also.

    I am simply trying to evaluate what has transpired and how, it’s like a fictional movie when in the end Dick Dastardly makes the sky black.

    Anyway whatever the true case is regarding Rossi,Defkalion, and others experimenting with LENR, I have found the enjoyment of being involved even at the low level of poster on an intranet site.

    • dsm Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 11:28 am

      Dale

      .
      All that you just posted is wild (very wild) speculation.
      .
      Rossi has never delivered to anyone ! – DGT included. That was the start of his downward spiral !.
      .
      Just under 1 year ago I was on Rossi’s side & believed DGT were the problem, but then I discovered that DGT were founded by Rossi’s friend Stremmenos, and the history now favours DGT not ever seeing a working eCat they were supposed to build a business on. They were faced with a sink or swim survival. I despise the idiots who claim DGTG stole from Rossi. They are blinded by their own kool-aid doses.
      .
      Do DGTG have a reactor ? – I can’t tell even after ICCF-17 where I was sure from Peter Gluck’s assurances, they had a real story to tell. Did they ? – not to me.
      .
      So here we are today Rossi has nothing validated & neither does DGTG.
      .
      DSM

  16. spacegoat Reply

    August 18, 2012 at 7:46 am

    “Heinrich Hora1#, George H Miley2, Mark A Prelas3, Kyu Jung Kim2 and Xiaoling Yang2
    1
    Department of Theoretical Physics, University of New South Wales, Sydney 2052, Australia
    Depepartment of Nuclear, Plasma and Radiological Engineering, Univ. of Illinois, Urbana IL 61801, USA
    3
    Fusion Research Laboratory, University of Missouri, Columbia Missouri 65211, USA
    2
    Abstract: Cold fusion and heavy element generation in palladium and similar crystals by low
    energy nuclear reactions LENR are manifested by crystal shock experiments with million
    times increased neutron emission, and furthermore by the Maruhn-Greiner small local
    maximum of the generated element distribution within a large scale minimum similar to the
    distribution for uranium fission. The role of deuterium reactions in two picometer distance
    are based on Coulomb screening and on results of cluster generation with very high density
    deuterons.”
    http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/STAFF/VISITING_FELLOWS&PROFESSORS/pdf/LENR%20Korea%20ProceedXX.pdf

    … “In this case the emission of many more 60 millions of neutrons during 5 minutes were measured fully reproducible in a sequence of experiments.”

    All together lenr-atheists : HUMBUG! SCAM! INCOMPETENCE! MEASUREMENT ERROR!

    • Methusela Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 8:59 am

      LOL!

      All together lenr-atheists : HUMBUG! SCAM! INCOMPETENCE! MEASUREMENT ERROR!

      The gang won’t like that! ;)

    • RonB Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 10:49 am

      SpaceG, That’s one heck of a read. When I was coming up with ways to pressurize hydrogen in my home brew lenr reactor I had thought about using ln2 to cool the chamber (and the hydrogen) as I filled it and then to cap it tight and warm it up to the lenr temperatures. Next we will find that compressing the Ni during the heating process will even increase the lenr effect more! Possibly even to the point of allowing the creation of a fusion explosion! :o
      Maybe Chen had it right all along haha!

  17. spacegoat Reply

    August 18, 2012 at 8:00 am

    ROSSIESAYS
    August 17th, 2012 at 2:11 PM
    Dear Dennis Lynn:
    To convince the global community about the fact that we are manufacturing plants which work regularly, producing megawatthours in the industrial applications will be our plants, not our reports. The World demands facts, not papers in this field. Nevertheless, papers have their importance, when they are referred to facts: in our presentation at Zurich we will describe the validation tests which we made in July and in August with our High Temperature E-Cats.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    => No change in 18 months : Rossi insists on products as proof.
    => The only rational behaviour is to wait.

    Past examples of scam are irrelevant.
    Mon and Pop investors are irrelevant.
    Greedy licencees are irrelevant.

    LENR Confidence + No Data => confidence in delivery on RossiSays 50:50

    No LENR Confidence + No Data => HUMBUG! SCAM! INCOMPETENCE! MEASUREMENT ERROR!

  18. Jami Reply

    August 18, 2012 at 10:24 am

    “I have NEVER heard an LENR researcher describe harnessing LENR as “easy”.”

    Nobody said so individually. But looking at the number of experiments over the decades and how completely different they are in terms of what materials they used, how they “triggered” and “sustained” the “reaction”, how they measured and what they found in the ashes, I have to conclude that you can use pretty much any material in any combination and trigger it in any way you like and you’ll practically always end up with something a LENR believer will call evidence. So, yes, it must be child’s play.

  19. Jami Reply

    August 18, 2012 at 10:36 am

    “… Mr. Rossi, I feel that he had seen a demonstration and the demonstrator abeted Rossi into disclosure. That person was brilliant and knew by disclosing it to Mr. Rossi that Rossi would run with it. Mr. Rossi then disclosed the same scenario to Defkalion and then they ran with it also.”

    I know what the secret was. Here it comes: “Cold Fusion is an undead branch of voodoo science with many fans all around the world, no theory to speak of and just enough mystery around it to keep the crackpots interested forever – so rather than dumping toxic waste in a fake recycling plant or scamming the US Army or serving pizzas in a bistro – why don’t you buy yourself a chemical engineering diploma and pretend you’ve developed a working LENR device?”

  20. Harry Perini Reply

    August 18, 2012 at 11:59 am

    This is the factor which Andrea Rossi uses in his Ecat:

    The Gamow Factor or Gamow-Sommerfeld Factor, named after its discoverer George Gamow, is a probability factor for two nuclear particles’ chance of overcoming the Coulomb barrier in order to undergo nuclear reactions, for example in nuclear fusion. By classical physics, there is almost no possibility for protons to fuse by crossing each other’s Coulomb barrier, but when George Gamow instead applied quantum mechanics to the problem, he found that there was a significant chance for the fusion due to tunneling.

    This probability increases rapidly with increasing particle energy, but at a given temperature the probability of a particle having a high energy falls off rapidly, following the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution. Gamow found that, taken together, these effects mean that for any given temperature, the particles that actually fuse are mostly in a (temperature-dependent) narrow range of energies known as the Gamow window.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamow_window

    Warm regards

  21. Methusela Reply

    August 18, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    Posted over on e-catworld as their latest story.

    Since Mega-sceps are not allowed over there, I’m posting over here for comment.

    Hope he doesn’t mind.

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/08/for-discussion-communique-from-attendees-at-iccf-17

    South Korea, 18 August 2012

    Communiqué

    Following an inspirational ICCF-17, attendees from the conference have solicited the agreement of key stakeholders to facilitate replications of an experiment that has shown to reliably demonstrate excess anomalous heat. We aim to enable at least 5 replications in disparate geographies, by respected authorities, to remove all doubt that this field is legitimate and has a role to play in securing the future.

    The effort will be socially funded and this is where you come in.

    – Which experiment that was discussed at ICCF-17 and/or NI Week do you think lends itself most to replication in order to meet the stated aim?
    – What minimum protocol would you want participants to follow?
    – What information would you like to be made public?
    – What rewards would you suggest should be offered as part of the social funding exercise?
    – What should the reproduction effort be called
    – Given that the power measurement equipment costs $25,000 per set up, what amount do you think would need to be raised in the social funding effort to meet the aims?

    There are some significant legal and technical issues to resolve, but it is believed that they are not insurmountable. It is the world’s opportunity to end the guessing game and ensure that this field of science finally realises its potential.

    It is expected there will be an associated website, dedicated to this effort, within a number of weeks where you will be able to more directly approach the proposal.

    • Methusela Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 12:31 pm

      I guess the obvious replication would be the Celani experiment…

      • Methusela Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 12:47 pm

        Using a Thermonetics type Seebeck Calorimeter, of course.

        • Bettingman Reply

          August 18, 2012 at 4:51 pm

          I agree with both remarks. Does anybody have any thoughts on who should be the replicator? Is there anybody on this forum that is credible enough? And what would it cost? On the other side a commend was placed that 325k would be needed.

    • Jami Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 12:45 pm

      Isn’t it odd that the believers keep pushing the idea that NASA, DARPA, NI, Siemens and what have you confirmed LENR and are 100% behind it and all that – and at the same time the community has to beg its members for pocket change to have it confirmed? Which is it?

      • Methusela Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 12:48 pm

        This is my attempt at being constructive. Perhaps you could also attempt that too?

        • Jami Reply

          August 18, 2012 at 12:57 pm

          Ok – I agree. Celani is probably most interesting. He stated he can have an insulated model which should be able to run self-sustained ready in a couple of weeks. That would be convincing beyond doubt – reputable scientists or not.

      • Dale G. Basgall Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 4:21 pm

        Jami heres the issue, when this LENR/Rossi started, claims were made by “claimants”. So after a few demo’s by Rossi a person posting as Mary-Yugo was posting on this site.

        Since my qualifications to reply to LENR science is small in the chemical field it is huge in mechanical engineering, electronic engineering, hydraulic engineering, plus I have several years of working with permanent magnetic domains as well as electromechanical methods to automate machinery. In other words my entire viewpoint on LENR is a totally mechanical one, not physics or chemistry.

        So I asked several physicists all from different fields to review possibilities of function as claimed. None could tell me why it (LENR) could not work , or be made workable.

        So I went straight forward to the Auto Cad and began drafting reactors based on the requirements noted by claimants of experimenting with the technology. I now have been drafting for eight months, and 124 drawings to date that take an average of 2.5 to 3.5 hours each.

        I take on one invention per year to complete and when I need to work through the night, I do. The reason Mary Yugo was mentioned in the earlier paragraph is because, (you can look it up in the archives on this site), Mary Yugo was asked by me exactly what her motivation was on the site, she may have pushed the people here the wrong way with her posts but I found her answer to me very interesting.

        Mary stated on this site her total interest was to understand how this scam had gotten so out of hand and that how it can continue, that was her gist in the comment anyway.

        So from my viewpoint as a designer of diverse mechanical apparatus and inventor was blinders on and LENR will be made to work eventually and released when approved by our government.

        While your in design mode all doubts to accomplishment must be removed from thought, it prevents creativity.

        Nonetheless your comment above had indicated to me you had read the wrong interpretation into my text of which I apologize for being slightly diverse but prying for someones opinion on exactly how this could possibly be a scam, I am not talking about the claimants and their products which have yet to emerge in the public sector. I am speaking in whole of this scenario and taking “facts” from the onset until now.

        So to be blunt, what is your take on this being a scam, and please try to stay focused on your actual feelings regarding the subject “scam”, several recite this over and over but should’t a scam have a plan? What would motivate someone to scam this type of product, that seems really difficult to plan out.

        • Jami Reply

          August 18, 2012 at 6:19 pm

          First of all let me express my astonishment over:

          “So I asked several physicists all from different fields to review possibilities of function as claimed. None could tell me why it (LENR) could not work , or be made workable.”

          If you pick a random bunch of a hundred physicists, you’ll end up with at least 99 of them telling you exactly why it could not work. Only when pressed to the point of becoming philosophical they may admit that, yes, since we’re far from knowing everything about the universe, there may be a faint chance that it could – somehow.

          As far as “Mary Yugo” goes, I know “her” (I think we all know who it is – and most of us don’t care either way about gender and/or nickname) pretty well from the vortex before we got banned there. I agree with “her” about the scam issue when it comes to Rossi and DGT. It is so blatantly obvious that I wouldn’t know where to start. And I don’t think it is difficult at all for Rossi. It would have been very difficult to plan and to organize if it all would have to go smoothly. But it didn’t. Rossi messed up badly and often. And many of his early followers eventually came around to achknowledging that he simply must be scamming. Rossi’s star isn’t exactly on the rise. Even on this blog, the Rossi believers are a shrinking minority. There are basically those who say he’s scamming and those who claim they reserve judgement. Who says they’re sure he isn’t? Almost nobody any more. And the rest of the world isn’t much different. Roger Green seems to have serious difficulty selling Rossi’s licenses for what would have to be regarded as peanuts if any of Rossi’s claims were true.

  22. John Milstone Reply

    August 18, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    Interesting comment from Jed Rothwell concerning Celani’s recent demonstration:

    Several experts in calorimetry expressed doubts about the Celani
    demonstration at ICCF17. Mike McKubre in particular feels that it is
    impossible to judge whether it really produced heat or not, because the
    method is poor.

    Rothwell goes on to say that he believes the effect is real, but this does point out that the measurements are questionable at best, regardless of the quality of the measuring tools (all hail National Instruments).

    • Bettingman Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 4:19 pm

      John, as I recall he said a bit more. My impression was that he thought it unlikely that the measurement error could be so big that it could negate the complete 14 watt excess heat.

      • John Milstone Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 4:42 pm

        Sorry, I meant to include the link: LINK

        Yes, Rothwell (and others, I think) said that.

        But the fact is that Celani’s demo isn’t as “rock solid” as the True Believers would have us believe.

        Hopefully, Celani will use this feedback to improve the testing, and either prove or disprove that his device is producing excess heat.

    • daniel maris Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 4:47 pm

      Didn’t you say Mike McKrube had lost all credibility previously?

      • John Milstone Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 5:18 pm

        Didn’t you say Mike McKrube had lost all credibility previously?

        Yes, I did.

        The fact that he “believes” in something as obviously phony as the Papp engine, does not mean that he must be wrong when he finds fault with an experiment.

        It’s like using Sterling Allan as a touchstone: If Allen believes in something, he’s almost certainly wrong. If Allen rejects something, he’s almost certainly right.

  23. LCD Reply

    August 18, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    What was Celani’s COP, anybody know?

    • Bettingman Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 4:19 pm

      well, input was 48, excess was 14 (sometimes 20).

    • RonB Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 7:45 pm

      I don’t think he demonstrated X/Gamma rays at the conference but he claims to have detected them. That’s significant.

      • CuriousChris Reply

        August 19, 2012 at 11:26 am

        He said he measured gamma and xrays ONCE. He said he has never before measured gamma and xrays and I assume he has not since.
        As such it may merely be a mistake.

        So no it is not significant.

  24. buffalo Reply

    August 18, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    celanis COP is minuscule which leaves plenty room for measurement error.its a lousy way to ‘prove’ anything.celani shouldve used 20 or 50 constantan wires wrapped around a central heating element to blow up the effect for shock advertising value.he didnt do lenr much justice

  25. buffalo Reply

    August 18, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    and heres a good question; why DIDNT celani prepare a experiment with sufficient cop nd power to blow any doubts away? Why the fuck didnt he put 50 strands of constantans in there? He had plenty enuf time,plenty enuf equipment

    • Bettingman Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 4:26 pm

      a huge cop is not important, unless you are claiming to be selling boilers before Chritmas. What is important is to rule out a chemical process (therefore the experiment must not be short) en an measurement error. Therefore a more accurate experiment with calorimetry is necessary. That last requirement was difficult to achieve in a demonstration set up.

      • buffalo Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 6:11 pm

        the last requirement would not be difficult if the heat output was larger,more tangible.and the fact that the last requirement was difficult opens a corridor to error.he shouldve sorted it out b4hand,long b4hand

        • Bettingman Reply

          August 19, 2012 at 2:24 pm

          Actually, the heat output is of such size that an error for the total amount of the excess is unlikely. That combined with the fact that Celani states that he has done a better job measering it in his own lab is enough. In other words, his lab results are the most relevant. Now it only comes down to replication by a trusted third party.

    • Alain Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 4:26 pm

      because he wanted to make a demo which is transparent.
      because he only have few prepared wires.
      because 30% error is gigantic, and the COP is 130%.

      he have better experiment made in his lab, but you will think it is fraud.

      see hyperskeptic method.

      there is no need of new proof.

      whatever is presented will be rejected.

      proofs have been there since NASA GRC in 89, replicated 2005.
      at spawar 2005, and replicated.
      iwamura and his replicator
      at ICCF ther have been a replication of another well know experiment…
      Ni make many replication.
      and all various LENR experiments are replication, simply with different protocols, yet it prove the phenomenon.

      there is no doubt according to scientific method.
      1 paper and one replication, is enough to be a scientific fact…
      moreover since LENr does not contradict any well know scientific law (QM, conservations, entropy), except the law of stupid conformism and closed-mindness, there is no reason to doubt it is true.

      • Jami Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 6:35 pm

        “there is no doubt according to scientific method.
        1 paper and one replication, is enough to be a scientific fact…”

        Sometimes I can’t help wondering what you do for a living, Alain. Is it something to do with art history? Icecream? Anyway – the world you’re living in must be incredibly confusing – because there are so many contradicting “facts” in it, that it can’t possibly work at all.

        • Alain Reply

          August 19, 2012 at 10:27 am

          I visibly have more experience than you, in practical science sociology, in big organization sociology, in epistemology, in history pf science, otherwise you won’t be so naive.
          I only know how science is politic, how media are self-manipulated/ing

          maybe if an experiment lead to strange results, a third paper migh be useful…

          as i say before good theory defend themselves and need no “exceptional proof” contradiction or bias and prejudice. LENR work since long.
          errors like any hypothesis have to be proved, and no contradictors gave a good argument that proove the facts, and was not later refuted by a better experiment .

          the problem is psychiatric, not scientific.
          AND IT IS COMMON, IN HISTORY…

          read the books.

    • Dale G. Basgall Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 4:36 pm

      Also why the glass tube, the insulation on the wires are not necessary either if the wires were strung like a guitar string with a small crystal between them to isolate them from one another.

      Anyway I believe he is on the path to commercialization, just the way he presented the device shows someone that’s farther ahead of the art than he is stating.

      In fact I believe he may have set Rossi and Defkalion on a “left fielder” in 2007, so he may be the person who discretely let the powder out of the bag for Rossi and Defkalion to scoup up as he Celani was actually already past the setbacks of using the powder and started working with the wire company he mentioned in his latest report.

    • Paul Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 1:41 pm

      Celani may not have used 50 strands because a demo that only lasted a few seconds before it melted into slag would only prove incompetence. You do not get enough energy out in those few seconds before it self destructed to prove that it is a nuclear reaction.

  26. Al Potenza Reply

    August 18, 2012 at 5:14 pm

    “Didn’t you say Mike McKrube had lost all credibility previously?”
    -
    McKubre made complimentary remarks about Rhoner’s obvious scam “noble gas” engine which can’t possibly work the way Rhoner claims. It’s not clear what if any tests McKubre did or observed but he’s clearly gullible.

    That means that if he approves a test, it could be phony. But if he disapproves a test, McKubre could still be correct. That he’s lax on requiring proof that a machine working doesn’t mean he can’t be correct when he says it doesn’t.

    BTW, watch what Rhoner does and follow his Inteligentry company on Sterling Alan’s web site. Rhoner promised to show a running engine at a meeting in December. I will bet you he won’t or if he does show something running, it will be powered from compressed air, a big battery or the mains.

    • dsm Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 12:30 am

      Al your talking BS again.

      You nor JM ever linked to the alledged Rohner scam (purportedly run by Bob Rohner).

      THEN link to the actual words used by McKubre that you claim endorse this scam.

      Please lenk to else stop slandering Mike McKubre.

      Al JM CC I am calling you out on this dishonest claim.
      Thanks

      DSM

      • Al Potenza Reply

        August 19, 2012 at 1:00 am

        Ah, c’mon. Calm down and watch this choice bit of Youtuberry:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dS1MsymF8hc#!

        There is Dr. McKubre in the flesh “trusting” Rhoner’s version of events with respect to that moronic “engine”. How long has that thing been promised and said to work?

        Interestingly, Sterling Allen went to Vegas to see the engine with a mark (uh… an investor), got treated to a fancy dinner, and concluded that everything was fine EVEN THOUGH HE NEVER SAW AN ENGINE BUT INSTEAD GOT AN EXTRAVAGANT DOSE OF PURE LYING BULLSHIT EXPLAINING WHY HE COULDN’T SEE IT.

        McKubre fell for this crookery, hook, line and sinker. He’s VERY gullible. He should have asked to see the machine running on a proper test stand (a dynamometer) provided by an independent third party. Instead, he didn’t see the slightest evidence that the device has EVER run. Amazing, I grant you.

        The only maybe more amazing thing than McKubre getting sucked in so deep was that Sterling wrote that his investor bought stock and two licenses. And we wonder who gets hurt by these silly scams.

        I won’t try to link more than one thing in a post because then it gets marked as spam but you can read the Sterling Allen story on peswiki.com — it’s at the top today.

        • dsm Reply

          August 19, 2012 at 10:14 am

          Al
          You have slandered Mike McKubre & lack the guts to admit it, let alone a shred of evidence.
          .
          1) Quote the links to Bob Rohner’s alledged scam ! (and don’t be so pathetic as to claim the ‘scam’ is simply that Bob Rohner believes the Papp engines work !).
          .
          2) Once you do 1 then quote the exact words from the Tesla event video spoken by Mike McKubre that back up your slander. (again quote the statements in full context).
          .
          AP JM CC – you all slandered Mike McKubre then ignored my posts referring to the exact wording of McKubre at the Tesla conference. The killer is that you provide NO LINKS to any Bob Rohner SCAM.
          .
          Your responses border on outright lying.
          .
          Al’s defense of his slander of McKubre is to quote this amazing crappy & flawed opinion “There is Dr. McKubre in the flesh “trusting” Rhoner’s version of events with respect to that moronic “engine”.” WTf was that ? – how does that justify accusations of a scam & McKubre’s alledged scam support ?. Al that was sh** proof.
          .
          How the F can you slander an international Scientist on that pathetic ramble that is simply your peculiar interpretation of the Tesla presentation ?.
          .
          You offer no evidence other than your highly distorted interpretation of the Tesla event. No evidence at all just ‘Al says’.
          .
          How in heck do you want to maintain any credibility here when that is the ‘proof’ that justifies you slandering a well established scientist, here on an international forum ?.
          .
          Bob Rohner NEVER demoed an engine. He showed a gas expansion demo !. McKubre NEVER claimed he supported the Papp engine – he said (his words not your distorted bullshit) “It is impossible but apparently it works” – THEN stated that Bob’s demo needed investigation by him & then stated it also needed evaluation by a fully equipped lab. Al, as with JM & CC, your proof is nothing less than pathetic !.
          .
          Bob Never provided any links at that Tesla event to a fund raising scheme for the Rohner Group. & McKubre was never supporting any such notion ? – you made it all up.
          .
          I still accused you (and John Millstone and Curious Chris), of slandering McKubre with NO evidence & no proofs. So now prove your claim because nothing any of you have said explains how Bob Rohner is running a scam & how McKubre is supporting Bob Rohner’s alleged ‘scam.
          .
          So yet again I am repeating the accusation & add to it that you lack the integrity or the humanity to either prove your slander or admit you were wrong.
          .
          DSM
          (this kind of skepticism is simply shit! (there I said it :) )

          • John Milstone

            August 19, 2012 at 6:52 pm

            dsm, you really have gone off the deep end.

            By all means, add me to your “enemies list”.

      • John Milstone Reply

        August 19, 2012 at 2:07 am

        dsm, sorry that you’re so blind to this particular farce.

        McKubre makes it clear that he accepts Rohner’s “engine” based on nothing more than videos and comments by Rohner.

        He then goes on to use 2nd-hand stories to justify his belief.

        Finally, he describes giving Rohner instructions on how to run a test, but them mumbles past the part describing who actually did the test. It appears that he simply accepted Rohner’s claims about any test results.

        This is less credible than Rossi or DGE. And remember, Rossi claimed throughout last year that he wasn’t interested in investors. Until later, when he was.

        • dsm Reply

          August 19, 2012 at 10:20 am

          JM
          .
          Read the above – you are slandering Mike McKubre & can’t produce the evidence.
          .
          1) Provide the links that show Bob Rohner is seeking money from people in *any* way that can be seen as scamming.
          .
          2) Provide the words as said by McKubre that show he is supporting ANY alleged scam by Bob Rohner.
          .
          You can’t & you know it & you won’t do it because it is a lie.
          .
          DSM

          • John Milstone

            August 19, 2012 at 10:59 am

            dsm, you aren’t Mike McKubre by any chance, are you?

            You have no trouble “slandering” people like Kullander and Essen when they uncritically support Rossi, but when McKubre does the same thing with Rohner, you go hyperbolic.

            You seem to think that because Rohner isn’t currently seeking gullible investors is reason to believe him. Let’s not forget that Rossi made the same claim of being uninterested in investors throughout almost all of 2011 while he presented his non-travelling dog & pony show.

            It was only after he raised the excitement to a fevered pitch that he stared selling franchises to gullible investors.

            Rohner is where Rossi was in January 2011. And McKubre is his version of Kullander.

          • dsm

            August 20, 2012 at 4:17 am

            John Millstone
            .
            You said “dsm, you aren’t Mike McKubre by any chance, are you?

            You have no trouble “slandering” people like Kullander and Essen when they uncritically support Rossi, but when McKubre does the same thing with Rohner, you go hyperbolic.”
            .
            You are simply lying John. I have NEVER slandered Kullander & Essen.
            .
            Now that you are being called to account for your repeated slandering of McKubre, you stop playing the ball & start to play them man eh – attack me & make false claims about me :) – muddy the water – a dirty tactic !.
            .
            You have NEVER seen me slander Kullander & Essen. But I sure have seen you slander Bob Rohner & Mike McKubre.
            .
            Once again – post your proofs that Bob Rohner is running any sort od scam or retract your slander.
            .
            DSM

        • dsm Reply

          August 19, 2012 at 10:58 am

          To JM, AP & CC.
          .
          I am telling you that unless one of you produce real evidence here that Mike McKubre is supporting any kind of Bob Rohner scam, I will personally set up a web site devoted to how certain people (you 3) set about to discredit a reputable scientist on the internet by lying about him. I do not take what you are doing lightly!.
          .
          Then I will repeatedly refer to the web site here any time you 3 try to do anything like it again.
          .
          PS just a reminder that I built & run this site http://http://dicksmithaustralia.com/
          .
          You can either provide some decent prrof or take the consequences. If we are going to hang Mike McKubre let us do so because he deserves it. Thus far the three of you are lying.

          • John Milstone

            August 19, 2012 at 11:02 am

            Wow!

            In one fell swoop, you’ve become the biggest nutjob on the forum.

            Congratulations.

          • dsm

            August 19, 2012 at 12:10 pm

            Correction
            http://www.dicksmithaustralia.com
            .
            If any of you prefer to retract your slander of McKubre I’ll drop you from the comments on this new site (am thinking of calling it newenergyslander.com (or something like that).
            .
            Cheers
            .
            DSM

          • CuriousChris

            August 19, 2012 at 1:58 pm

            No-one has lied. We are all in accord. You are the odd one out. Doesn’t that say something?

            I have already fully answered you previously and you responded by rewriting my words script fashion to suit your own agenda. Then you start the name calling and accusing me of stupidity, and in that way you remind me of others.

            That sort of behaviour is contemptible. The vehemence of your responses are very telling. It actually made me worry about you, That something might be going on with you and we hit a trigger.

            McKubre **implicitly** supports Rohner. Its this implied support from someone who should know better that is most disturbing. There are many ways to support something, and one of those ways is to say something like….
            “Its clearly impossible, but apparently it works” 3:05 in that video

            And again at 4:34 but this time a little more explicit. “one of the things that most convinced me that this machine really did operate …”

            “really did operate”! He seems pretty convinced to me. Yes he says it needs to be tested further but the damage has already been done. fI you ask me no more testing needs to be done. Its plain and simple the Papp engine is BS. you seem to forget/ignore Papp himself was a con artist, strangely reflective of Rossi.

            The amount of time McKubre spends stroking Bobs ego when he should have been disassembling the device (figuratively) and at least pointing out it looks like a solenoid. And don’t forget Bob admitted he has no idea what the coil does and when I told him it could react with the aluminium he thought I was loopy and accused me of being a stooge for his estranged brother, who is by the way selling licenses for these devices at $250K

            The crap from you about “I know stuff you don’t but I wont tell you because I don’t want to teach”, is condescending. Who are you to think you are capable of teaching me or JM or Al anything. And of course you also give yourself an out with the whole line in the sand thing, That’s just cheap!

            I know McKubre is a bit of a hero for you as is Dick Smith. but no-one is above reproach.

          • Bettingman

            August 19, 2012 at 2:40 pm

            DSM,
            I think highly of you and I value your contributions to this Forum (and other LENR activities) immensely.
            Nevertheless, when I read the reaction of CuriousChris below (19th January 1:58 pm) I have to agree with him. I think it is unwise for a scientist to say something like : “Its clearly impossible, but apparently it works” in case he hasn’t tested/investigated it. At first this also gave me the idea that he had really looked into it. Of course, it is way too strong to claim that McKubre is a supporter of Rohner, but he does seem to give him some credebillity, whether he wants that or not.
            It should be possible to express our concern for this matter on this forum.

          • Bigwilly

            August 19, 2012 at 6:03 pm

            DSM,

            I have enjoyed reading your comments but this latest post is rediculous. You are going to create an even more obscure website to document screen names from this obscure website who are being meanies?

            This would make sense if you are actually Kubre but otherwise seems like extreme fanboyism.

            Add me to the website also please.

            Thanks
            BE

          • Methusela

            August 19, 2012 at 6:43 pm

            Krivit spent a significant amount of time dragging McKubre’s name through the mud.

            DSM: you ought to be upset about that too.

          • dsm

            August 19, 2012 at 10:18 pm

            Hang on
            .
            The three of you have said Bob Rohner is running a scam and then accused Mike McKubre of supporting this fantasy Bob Rohner scam. That is the issue.
            .
            You point to the evidence as being what Mike McKubre said at the Tesla conference but never actually repeat his words (and in context) then when asked for proof to back up your slander all three of you offer nothing but biased opinion and NO proof. No links to a Bob Rohner scam but one of you at least tried to weasel in John Rohner who has nothing to do with Bob Rohner and that has been spelled out to the 3 of you ad nauseum.
            .
            And here we are today wih no proof to back up your slander of McKubre but you keep it up!.

            .
            That is what is so appalling. You now appear to be weaseling out of your slander statements.
            .
            DSM

          • dsm

            August 19, 2012 at 10:27 pm

            CuriousChris
            You slandered Bob & McKubre & I asked you to show links to any scam being run by Bob Rohner & you then avoided doing so.
            Chris I could not believe the garbage you put up to justify attacking McKubre.
            .
            I one post I told you in blunt terms what I believed about Papp, McKubre & Bob Rohner’s presentation & asked you to post it back to me so there could be no doubt. I was fed up with you telling what you claimed I believed about the Tesla event and McKubre’s position.
            .
            Anway, you too are now backing down on yoyr slander, I knew you would because it is simply false.
            .
            DSM

          • dsm

            August 19, 2012 at 10:30 pm

            Methusela,
            I am dealing with this issue because it is here it is now & those 3 were lying and so it is a ‘now’ event.
            .
            If you want to start a thread about your claim that Krivit said something nasty about McKubre please go and do so (I’ll bet he never stated publicly that McKure was supporting a Bob Rohner scam :) )
            .
            Cheers
            .
            DSM

          • dsm

            August 19, 2012 at 10:34 pm

            Bettingman,
            .
            Do you think it is reasonable to have people call someone a scam artist & when asked to provide links to the alleged scam they don’t & won’t ?.
            .
            Is it also reasonable to then to call a respected scientist a supporter of this non-existent scam.
            .
            I drew a line in the sand a couple of weeks back & they just kept stepping over it & I am rubbing their noses in it.
            .
            Cheers
            .
            DSM

          • dsm

            August 19, 2012 at 10:36 pm

            Bigwilly
            .
            If you want to be added to the website please just post the same slander that Al Potenza did – it isn’t hard to find it. Otherwise just butt out thanks :)
            .
            Cheers
            .
            DSM

  27. Jami Reply

    August 18, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    Another “Rossi laughs at the world”:

    Straaange I really thought I remembered him suggesting he not only “made” a first 1 MW plant but already sold it last October or so. Maybe the secret customer not only wanted non-NI control electronics but also a non-Diesel energy source. Too noisy, I presume.

    Designing a brand new gas burner is surely a necessary task. After all, mankind only invented gas burners a couple of centuries ago and hasn’t learned anything about them since. Nothing Rossi can’t significantly improve on with his left hand while keeping the world up to date with the other.

    And it’s nice to hear that he has perfected all the nuclear stuff to a point where he can spare a Saturday afternoon for mundane things like designing gas burners. I’m impressed.

    ————
    Andrea Rossi
    August 18th, 2012 at 8:57 AM

    Dear Marco:
    The design allows many solutions for the assemblies. The one you suggested is one of them. It is very likely, anyway, that the first 1 MW plant we will make will be driven by gas, not electricity, to make it more economically convenient. I am designing the burners right now, while I am answering to you, with our engineers.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Francesco CH Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 7:36 pm

      Rossi is talking about the first INDUSTRIAL 1MW plant, which has to work for industrial purposes:

      Andrea Rossi
      August 18th, 2012 at 7:34 AM
      Dear Ing. Benedetto Schiavone:
      1- Our industrial plants are based on the modules of 10 kW of power. We are already manufacturing them, and the safety is base on the fact that being the 10 kW modules have been tested throughly, the assembly of more modules will be as safe as the single ones, upon which we have spent thousands of hours measuring the emissions and, therefore, the safety.

    • daniel maris Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 9:13 pm

      He’s talking about the “hot cat” – it’s clear from the question put to him.

  28. Al Potenza Reply

    August 18, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    Rossi is very strange. “…the first 1 MW plant we will make”? Didn’t Rossi make a 1 MW plant which his “customer” accepted back in October 2011? And then he said he sold 12 more with a four month delivery date. That would be last February, wouldn’t it? And didn’t he say one of those plants was going to a non-military customer who would be interviewed and show the plant to the public? What’s holding things up Engineer Rossi?

    • Francesco CH Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 7:37 pm

      @Al Potenza

      Rossi is talking about the first INDUSTRIAL 1MW plant, which has to work for industrial purposes:

      Andrea Rossi

      August 18th, 2012 at 7:34 AM

      Dear Ing. Benedetto Schiavone:

      1- Our industrial plants are based on the modules of 10 kW of power. We are already manufacturing them, and the safety is base on the fact that being the 10 kW modules have been tested throughly, the assembly of more modules will be as safe as the single ones, upon which we have spent thousands of hours measuring the emissions and, therefore, the safety.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 8:05 pm

        I’m thinking that Rossi refers to his 1st industrial HOT-Cat.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          August 18, 2012 at 8:39 pm

          Maybe instead of guessing, someone could ask Rossi? Why is everything the guy says always open to some wild and unusual interpretation? So which is it, guys, industrial or hot? Or both? Or neither?

          And tell me again, Iggy and Francesco, how we know that Rossi has ever sold and/or delivered any form of ecat to anyone at all? And how do we know he has a factory making ecats? And a research lab making new products all the time? Is there anything there other than “Rossi says”?

          • JNewman

            August 18, 2012 at 8:50 pm

            Al, I don’t really see the point of questioning those who actually believe Rossi. It is truly the equivalent of pushing on a rope. If they continue to accept what he says as truth, they certainly will not be dissuaded by anything resembling logic or common sense.

          • Al Potenza

            August 18, 2012 at 9:06 pm

            @JNewman

            Oh, it’s very weird. They can’t even agree about what Rossi is supposed to be talking about and nobody bothers to ask him.

            I wonder what they will say at the end of October when nothing Rossi promised comes true and his much anticipated convention of licensees turns out to be a bunch of shills.

          • daniel maris

            August 18, 2012 at 9:15 pm

            Jami’s quote refers to the hot cat. Francesco’s refers to the industrial 1MW heating plant.

            It’s clear from the question in each case. And Rossi makes clear the industrial heater is already being made, as previously stated.
            Of course we don’t have any firm evidence as yet to back up what he says apart from the evidence of the video of the plant.

          • Al Potenza

            August 18, 2012 at 9:19 pm

            “the evidence of the video of the plant”

            The videos I have seen have no data whatsoever to show that the so-called plant works. If you know of anything different, other than the weird charade of October 28 in which supposed data was presented on three dirty hand written pieces of paper by an anonymous person, please provide a link.

          • JNewman

            August 18, 2012 at 9:55 pm

            I think I might start paying more attention to the constant steam of announcements of ever-more-wonderful ecats when their alleged performance is quoted in BTUs. So far, these things are supposed to be heaters and that’s how people usually talk about heaters. With these world-changing devices we are instead told about electrical input powers and thermal output powers inferred from point temperature measurements. This sort of arcane discussion is ideal for the non-technical types who form the most loyal core of Rossi supporters. Most probably have the idea that there is a meter that reads “watts in” and another one that reads “watts out” from which those magical COP numbers emerge. Instead, we have Celani using the Stefan-Boltzmann equation to infer power from a spot temperature whose value (in Kelvin no less) is raised to the fourth power, thereby greatly magnifying any inaccuracies. But all of that is mainstream science stuff and that isn’t important here. It’s all good.

        • John Milstone Reply

          August 19, 2012 at 11:07 am

          Isn’t it convenient that Rossi keeps jumping from one “product” to another, without ever reaching the point of confirming that any of them work.

  29. Harry Perini Reply

    August 18, 2012 at 10:36 pm

    J Newman :

    BTUs are energy

    BTUs per unit time is power

    Watts is also power

    Rossi’s 1MW unit refers to power

    Temperature is not power

    • JNewman Reply

      August 18, 2012 at 10:50 pm

      Thank you so much for that, Harry. Fascinating facts.

      • daniel maris Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 11:09 pm

        I;m not sure BTU is used on the continent of Europe. Are you sure it is?

        • Jami Reply

          August 19, 2012 at 9:05 am

          It still is with almost all things American. If you buy a Sun or IBM or HP or Dell Computer in Europe, its cooling specifications come in BTU.

      • JNewman Reply

        August 18, 2012 at 11:13 pm

        To be fair to Harry, though, specifying heater output in BTU is a short-hand convention. The numbers really are BTU/hr, which as he says are units of power. My comment was not to imply that power is an inappropriate metric for ecats but that quoting watts of heat output derived from watts of electrical input hides much complexity under the rug. Most importantly, the output power quoted is a derived quantity and is the source of all the controversy in LENR measurements. So much for today’s episode of Fun with Units.

  30. Jami Reply

    August 19, 2012 at 8:50 am

    “I don’t think he demonstrated X/Gamma rays at the conference but he claims to have detected them. That’s significant.”

    No, it isn’t. It is just drivel. We live in a radioactive world. Depending on your measuring equipment, sometimes detecting gamma and sometimes not detecting gamma is an observation applying to everything. Eating hamburgers, watching television, starting your car, sleeping in bed, running current through a wire and believing it fuses hydrogen atoms.

    • RonB Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 3:57 pm

      lol .. right Jami, I actually think you believe that.

      • CuriousChris Reply

        August 20, 2012 at 12:06 am

        I Do. Remember Celani said he only measured it once in all his tests. If it was a feature of LENR then surely he would have measured it every time.

        You probably don’t know but when your PC glitches without apparent reason, it is a passing high energy particle that could have caused it. Its a serious concern for the likes of Intel they now have to protect the chips from cosmic rays.

        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7335322.stm

        So Jami is accurate in his representation

  31. Jami Reply

    August 19, 2012 at 8:58 am

    Meanwhile…

    He is ramping up the IP delay strategy. Until he and DGT are finally going head to head in an invisible court (in an undisclosed country, of course), he’ll only sell invisible e-cats to invisible customers while DGT will do invisible tests with invisible authorities. Once the invisible lawsuit has been announced, they can all relax for a while.

    ——–
    Andrea Rossi
    August 19th, 2012 at 2:16 AM

    Dear ivan:
    We have decided, so far, to limit our sales to the 1 MW plants because this dimension is the one that gives to Leonardo Corp. the maximum economic momentum, considering our present structure. We foresee, anyway, to lower, in future, the power of the products for sale. In this monent there is also a big confusion regarding the Intellectual Property and there are around clowns ( think to the ones that claim to have been able to copy us) that have just mock ups (empty boxes) which they will inmmediately fill up with our technology as soon as cheap E-Cats will be in the market: this has been their strategy from the beginning. Marketing only the 1 MW plants we can select our Customers. When the domestic Ecats will be certified the numbers will be enough big to allow us a big scale production, so that our prices will be enough low to defeat the competition even after they will be able to copy us. About the chance of our competitors to reach us and compete with us, without copying us, from what I saw recently, they all are lightyears far from being able to produce something able to produce real energy: they are making paper aeroplanes, we are manufacturing Boeing 707. With all respect.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Dale G. Basgall Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 9:36 am

      This would mean the robot factory is put on the back burner now, hmmm, I believe there was supposed to be a factory assembling the small units less expensive than any other competitor also. A light year is huge gap and a paper airplane is a concept alot like the e-cat (10kw).

      • dsm Reply

        August 19, 2012 at 10:24 am

        The Home eCat factory NEVER existed.
        .
        Lets just face the obvious reality !.
        .
        DSM :)
        .
        (Rossi’s agent’s will all go down with the good ship eCat singing Rossi’s praise & and their own hymns about him while he (like the captain of the Costa Concordia) sits on the shore watching it happen (maybe he won’t even bother).
        .
        DSM
        (Geeze now Rossi is blaming DGTG for his failures !!!)

        • Jami Reply

          August 19, 2012 at 11:13 am

          “Lets just face the obvious reality”

          I can’t fathom the subtle distinctions you’re making when it comes to “obvious”, DSM. Rohner is innocent until proven guilty while Rossi seems to be scamming “obviously” enough for you? Escapes me.

          • dsm

            August 19, 2012 at 10:40 pm

            Fer F’s sake Jami – provide any links you can to show Bob Rohner asking people to invest in a scam !.
            .
            Don’t twist the subject. Rossi’s lies are there for everyone to see. The JN. AP & CC accusation of Bob Rohner’s scam are simply a lie to make a false point !.
            .
            Where is the Bob Rohner scam ?.
            .
            Thanks
            .
            DSM

          • dsm

            August 19, 2012 at 11:29 pm

            Jami
            One other point. Where I have I ever said Rossi was scamming. My constant position is he has lied repeatedly about what he has done and is doing. DGTG got caught up in his lie that he had a commercial ready eCat for them to market as part of their hyperion.
            .
            Jami this sentence below is your wording not mine & you you are using your position to warp mine !. This is *exactly* what CuriousChris kept doing until I posted exactly what I believed (re Papp, Rohner & McKubre) & asked him to reply it back to me so that he might stop inventing what I believed.
            .
            “Rohner is innocent until proven guilty while Rossi seems to be scamming “obviously” enough for you? Escapes me.”
            .
            DSM
            Also you well know that there is a world apart between Bob Rohner & John Rohner but like the others you keep referring to just ‘Rohner’ in what I see as a deliberately ambiguous way. I state always it is Bob Rohner I am referring to. Please do the same so we know who it is.)

      • daniel maris Reply

        August 19, 2012 at 11:10 am

        No, I don’t think you’ve got that right. The Rossi story is that the Home E Cat is awaiting safety certification. He takes advantage, so he says, of the fact that such safety certification is not required where the 1MW E cat is operating under the supervision of trained staff to pursue what seems to me a very reasonable business case of building up funds at this stage. This will allow for the fitting out of the mass production factory and pursuing legal action against “copy cats”.

        I think the paper aeroplane reference is to
        DGT’s product in particular.

        I don’t see any inconsistencies in what he says – it’s only a question of whether there is any substance to what he says.

        • Jami Reply

          August 19, 2012 at 11:17 am

          Do you know of any other technologies which require safety certifications when sold to you or I and do NOT require them when operated by “trained staff”? Cars come to mind – you need a driver’s license which usually requires some sort of training – at least in most countries – but that doesn’t change anything at all about the certifications these machines have to undergo before being admitted to market.

          • John Milstone

            August 19, 2012 at 11:30 am

            HERE is a web site for a company selling KW-to-MW steam boilers. It just happened to be the first one returned by Google.

            Notice all the certifications. Notice that UL certifies such boilers. That’s the same UL that Rossi admitted to not having contacted when asked by State of Florida authorities.

            You can download the operating manuals for these devices. Notice how much more information there is than Rossi provides for his “nuclear reactor”. Hell, the manual for the water feed tank is more impressive than anything Rossi has produced.

            It sure makes Rossi’s claims and evidence look rather pathetic in comparison.

          • John Milstone

            August 19, 2012 at 11:47 am

            HERE is the Dept. of Defense standards for a conventional steam plant.

            The idea that Rossi can produce a nuclear steam plant, operating on unknown principles, in a matter of months is laughable.

        • CuriousChris Reply

          August 20, 2012 at 12:13 am

          “safety certification is not required”

          You persist with this BS. why? probably because you accept Rossi at his word. Commercial products require a higher level of certification than even a home unit. Having trained attendants does NOT obviate the need for certification. A Nuclear device has a hundred fold higher level of certification required than most devices.

          When you stop taking Rossi at his word and start critically thinking about what he says you will then realise. Rossi is full of it and you are gullible.

    • Harry Perini Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 1:02 pm

      Does this mean the home ecat I ordered will not be delivered in time for the upcoming heating season ?

      How disappointing !!

  32. Guru Reply

    August 19, 2012 at 10:32 am

    These are economic law:

    1 MW plant (container) may consist from around 86-90 pieces of last Hot E-Cats (13 kW á piece).

    If Rossi woul be sell these E-Cats as Home units at advertised prices: 600 USD, sorry 800 USD, sorry 1000 USD, sorry 2000 AUD, so 90 pieces is for his company some 90 000 USD revenues.

    If he sell these 90 pieces plus container plus a big chain and lock, he will have 1 million USD revenues. This is too sweet difference for experienced businessman.

    Sorry common folks, You are these last in list of priorities.

    Big businesses interests and economic law win, again.

    • John Milstone Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 11:18 am

      Big businesses interests and economic law win, again.

      LOL!

      Want to bet that all the alleged sales will be to “secret” customers?

      You can’t sell what you don’t have, and Rossi has nothing but a couple of fake table-top steam kettles and a shipping container full of shoeboxes wrapped in insulation.

      And the money just rolls in!

      • Silverarrow Reply

        August 19, 2012 at 11:52 am

        to secret customers – exactly. Note the comment below by the great prophet “Marketing only the 1 MW plants we can select our Customers” – with this he can keep the story going for some more years…..sell only to hand-selected customers that will never give any testimonial. Good trick.
        And of course the patents will never be granted, a good reason not to disclose anything.

        Andrea Rossi
        August 19th, 2012 at 2:16 AM
        Dear ivan:
        We have decided, so far, to limit our sales to the 1 MW plants because this dimension is the one that gives to Leonardo Corp. the maximum economic momentum, considering our present structure. We foresee, anyway, to lower, in future, the power of the products for sale. In this monent there is also a pending situation regarding the Intellectual Property and there are around clowns ( think to the ones that claim to have been able to copy us) that have just mock ups (empty boxes) which they will inmmediately fill up with our technology as soon as cheap E-Cats will be in the market: this has been their strategy from the beginning. Marketing only the 1 MW plants we can select our Customers. When the domestic Ecats will be certified the numbers will be enough big to allow us a big scale production, so that our prices will be enough low to defeat the competition even after they will be able to copy us. About the chance of our competitors to reach us and compete with us, without copying us, from what I saw recently, they all are lightyears far from being able to produce something able to produce real energy: they are making paper aeroplanes, we are manufacturing Boeing 707. With all respect.
        Warm Regards,
        A.R.

      • Frank Reply

        August 19, 2012 at 1:57 pm

        The ‘die-hard believers’ will still see no contradictions to earlier ‘Rossi says’, will they? :

        Andrea Rossi
        July 7th, 2012 at 2:45 PM
        Dear Antonella:
        You are right, anybody can buy a 1 MW plant and make all the tests he wants and obviously anybody is free to give information to anybody regarding a property of his.
        Warm Regards,
        A.R.

      • Paul Reply

        August 20, 2012 at 2:23 am

        Are you psychic or just guessing?

  33. CuriousChris Reply

    August 19, 2012 at 11:50 am

    Just in case some aren’t aware we already have water heaters that operate at a cop of 4.

    You can buy them now, I even saw one on ebay. They use heat pumps to draw energy from the surroundings to heat the water. Heat pumps have been known to get a cop of 8 in the lab. so while 8 in the field is unlikely 6 is not out of the question.

    • buffalo Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 2:52 pm

      whaddayatawkinbowt chris.sounds like roof solar man

      • CuriousChris Reply

        August 20, 2012 at 12:28 am

        No its not a roof solar system.

        Its a heat pump. Heat pumps are electrically powered devices that transfer heat from one area to another. We have had them for oh a looong time your fridge uses one, your airconditioner uses one.

        Here is an industrial water heating one
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EcoCute
        it has a cop of 3.8

        Here is a site that sells them to the home
        http://www.sanden-hot-water.com.au/about-the-eco
        COP 4.5

        Rossi’s device doesn’t seem so earth shattering any more does it!

        • Paul Reply

          August 20, 2012 at 2:21 am

          Yes, but Rossi’s device, if it works, will maintain the same COP across a much wider external temperature range – and that is extremely important.

          • CuriousChris

            August 20, 2012 at 5:05 am

            There are other versions that are not so temperature dependant they use CO2 and so operate anywhere below 1000 Metres above that I assume the air is too rarefied.

            My point was a COP of 6 isn’t so special.

    • Paul Reply

      August 20, 2012 at 2:22 am

      I have one of the heat pump water heaters. It makes a good dehumidifier for the basement – once I get the faulty relay replaced.

  34. Jami Reply

    August 19, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    “the problem is psychiatric”

    Your’s appears to be, Alain. So let me get this straight. You’re a sociologist urging people to take something you don’t know the first thing about and which is mostly utter bullshit as scientific “fact” because there is something like a paper and somebody else claiming equal nonsense? It may well be that sociology works that way – in fact I guess sociology is more or less defined that way – but physics fortunately isn’t.

    • Alain Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 5:56 pm

      it is not something like a paper, but researcher in US NAVY SPAWAR, in NASA GRC, in TOYOTA, in MITSUBISHI, in ENEA (italian DoE), in NI and 10 labs, … many times with different researchers, different times.

      Look (sorry you will never read it, but the lurkers will and understand how denying you are) at the CV of Celani.

      I’m not sociologist, I’ve flied from R&D to applied science, surfed from research culture to corporate, passing by bubbles and finance, catching dada from various science for professional and private use.
      It is hard to understand how a society, a corporation, an industry, so great brains, can get crazy, but it happens so many times that Roland Benabou theory, with my background, start to make it clear and logic… human factor is not my industry, but it is needed in research, finance, and corporation.

      You should get more culture on history of science,recent and old and also on reasoning.
      Look at : achromatic lens, and newton, differential calculus and newton, Martian canali, N rays in France, ether, QM, motorized flight, germanium junction discovery.

      the fact that you deny work from so many organism, few Nobel, many recognized (till they work in CF) researchers is so huge, that … it is ridiculous.

      moreover LENR as it is understood today is not so heretic. it is classic QM in a now classic derivation in new periodic/dimensional context (like superconduction, semiconductors, nanotech).

      what is so transgressing for you ?

      why cannot you accept that this effect is real…
      I don’t imagine you are paid, because you seem sincere, and rational denial is the only theory I have…

      of course all of that is compatible with business lies, experimental errors, and even frauds… but it is not possible to be so big conspiracy…

      the real conspiracy is not a conspiracy, but classic social pressure by groupthink denialist, on a minority of realist… classic.

      • Jami Reply

        August 19, 2012 at 9:15 pm

        “moreover LENR as it is understood today is not so heretic. it is classic QM in a now classic derivation in new periodic/dimensional context (like superconduction, semiconductors, nanotech).”

        This is where I no longer follow. LENR can absolutely not be explained by anything we know about quantum mechanics. It is, if anything, even more “heretic” than it was in 1989. Piling up more and more bad experiments doesn’t change that at all as long as not a single one of them is conclusive. And none of them is. 23 years and nobody managed to prove it. Forget the theory – that could come later – but a single experiment in which the reaction is triggered and then just runs without requiring continuous input power would convince everybody.

        Lets wait for Celani’s insulated reactor which he hinted at having ready in a couple of weeks (though I bet we’ll never hear from it again).

        • John Milstone Reply

          August 19, 2012 at 10:32 pm

          (though I bet we’ll never hear from it again)

          In that case, it would be just like Focardi and Piantelli back in 1994 (LINK) among others.

          They claimed to have a device that supposedly produced almost 40 Watts and supposedly ran for months at a time. It appears that their calorimetry was to take “spot” temperature measurements, which is of questionable accuracy.

          I also notice that they were using National Instruments products, which shows that their “involvement” is not new, and doesn’t necessarily signify anything.

          It’s unfortunate that they just gave up in failure, if they actually had a device that worked as described. Of course, if they eventually discovered a flaw in their measurements, that would explain why they gave up.

          Or, I guess it could have been the Reptiles from Alpha Centauri, along with the Illuminati, who convinced them to stop.

  35. Al Potenza Reply

    August 19, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    “…there are around clowns ( think to the ones that claim to have been able to copy us) that have just mock ups (empty boxes) which they will inmmediately fill up with our technology as soon as cheap E-Cats will be in the market: this has been their strategy from the beginning.”

    Rossi’s moronic “patter” is no longer even internally consistent! If his competitors buy his cheap ecats and make other more expensive devices with them, what does he care? He’s selling cheap ecats and that way he gets to sell more of them. Anyway, he’ll never be able to control what people to with his ecats and that includes the so-called megawatt plant. If someone bought that collection of shoe-boxes, there’d be no reason not to dismantle it and figure out exactly how it works. So in the end, to be safe, Rossi should sell nothing. And I’m quite confident the only thing he’s sold is investments and licenses.

    • John Milstone Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 6:40 pm

      I wonder if his comment about “empty boxes” is psychological “projection”? That is, he’s accusing his competition of what he himself is doing.

  36. Al Potenza Reply

    August 19, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    @DSM

    Chris and the others are right. McKubre is lending support to the inane concept that noble gases can serve as fuel for an engine and that it is possible to make an engine that will run a car for months without buying fuel from this principle. That’s beyond stupid. McKubre should know that and apparently doesn’t! Amazing. Startling! Disgusting.

    BTW, DSM, you should know that also. The Papp engine or noble gas engine can not work. It’s a fraud and always has been. This is basically a free energy perpetual motion device. It’s not like LENR for which there are at least plausible mechanisms to be considered and evaluated. There is nothing of value whatever in the Papp concept.

    And as recently as yesterday, some unfortunate investor who apparently failed to do due diligence, got nailed by the other Rhoner, perhaps in part because McKubre endorsed the so-called “technology”.

    McKubre has now branded himself GULLIBLE. Very gullible and not to be trusted when evaluating the evidence for unlikely claims. That includes all his opinions about LENR.

    • Methusela Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 7:01 pm

      Oh, give us a break!

      Stick an advert in some major newspapers, if you’re so concerned – do a Gary Wright.

      Gary is a gigantic ass, but he is putting money where his mouth is :)

      • Al Potenza Reply

        August 19, 2012 at 7:29 pm

        Advertising wouldn’t help. The people who invest in the likes of Rhoner wouldn’t be likely to read it. They read Sterling Allen’s hilarious web site instead.

        • Methusela Reply

          August 19, 2012 at 7:40 pm

          So. What makes you think they’re going to take any notice of your posts here?

          In fact, the REVERSE may be true.

          Your continuous repetitive posting could be driving people into the arms of scammers, like a man visiting the pub to escape his nagging wife.

          • JNewman

            August 19, 2012 at 8:03 pm

            Al’s continuous repetitive posts clearly bother you the most of anyone. So how much do you plan to invest?

          • Methusela

            August 19, 2012 at 8:19 pm

            I’m merely concerned about those being driven from a *what could be* a sensible sceptical environment by excessive unwarranted criticism.

            It is you, Milstone, Potenza, Jami, and Zaroff that are sending people into the arms of PESN.

            Think about it.

            Your supposed aim is to protect investors.

            You can’t get at them if they’re coddled at e-catworld or PESN ;)

          • Al Potenza

            August 19, 2012 at 8:50 pm

            “I’m merely concerned about those being driven from a *what could be* a sensible sceptical environment by excessive unwarranted criticism.”
            -
            It’s a strange idea that people can be driven to a concept by excessive criticism. So, for example, you think that I can drive votes towards my favored political candidate by carrying out a character assassination attempt? What a comical idea!

            But the criticism on this forum is well balanced by all the adulation. It was, anyway, until the smell from both Defkalion and Rossi got so pungent and disgusting that even many of their former supporters started to become skeptical.

          • JNewman

            August 19, 2012 at 9:09 pm

            Methusela, I have no such aim. I am not trying to protect investors or anybody else by posting here. I am here because it is a remarkable spectacle to see people so emotionally invested in this story. If I wanted to be a good samaritan trying to protect people from their own stupidity, there are bigger fish to fry than the cult of LENR. No sir. I really don’t care what people decide to believe. I am just interested in seeing how such beliefs develop.

        • dsm Reply

          August 20, 2012 at 12:33 am

          Al Potenza

          Where is Bob Rohner (yes Bob !) asking for investments or offering to sell useless Papp engines ?.
          .
          You keep stating this and then ignore every single request to back it up.
          .
          Methusela has a perfectly valid point about what you are starting to do here.
          .
          If people see that you are willing to slander an established scientist & then dodge any proofs, they will start to see you & JM & the likes of CC as completely incorrigible when it comes to putting substance to your claims.
          .
          Many may start to justifiably think that perhaps even more of your claims are unsubstantiated or backed up. I am starting to !.
          .
          Either withdraw your claim that Bob Rohner is running a scam & McKubre backing it or provide some proofs that justify such slander of them.
          .
          DSM

    • dsm Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 10:58 pm

      Al Potenza
      .
      No one disputes your right (or John Millstone’s or CuriousChris’s right to call the Papp engine impossible. McKubre did just that. Gene Mallove said it is an impossible concept within known science. You can call it a fraud if you like but that is on thin ice.
      .
      When someone demonstrates something that is ‘impossible’ and it can’t be explained in any simple terms, it deserves investigation if someone is willing to do so.
      .
      At the Tesla conference, Bob Rohner demonstrated the impossible concept of an expanding/collapsing Noble Gas cycle. Al & JM said it was a fake demo (they were there weren’t they ? NOT – hmmm :) ). Mike McKubre stated in almost black and white that he wanted to do a deeper investigation – now this is where you JM & CC started to go off the rails because you then called Bob Rohner a scammer & then claimed Mike McKubre was supporting this fanciful scam (for which you repeatedly offer no links showing Bob is scamming anyone).
      .
      The issue comes down to should an impossible effect be investigated if no one can explain it. (You calling it a fake is simply irrelevant – that is just an opinion & you did no investigation to back that claim). Commonsense says that if someone reputable is willing to do an investigation it should be done. But you JM & CC then start attacking the credibility and integrity of McKubre (outright slander actually) for merely stating he wants to investigate Bob Rohner’s demo and also for saying he believed a fully equipt lab with open minded scientists also should look at the effect.
      .
      How the F does science advance at all if every ‘difficult’ theory or demonstration doesn’t fit the views of one segment of science ?.
      It would never progress. This situation is P&F all over again except you JM & CC aren’t well known scientists (if you are please explain).
      .
      So I have been pointing out to you three that slander is a lousy way of dealing with an honest opinion (by McKubre) that Noble Gas expansion/contraction effect should be investigated.
      .
      Thanks
      .
      DSM

      • John Milstone Reply

        August 19, 2012 at 11:24 pm

        At the Tesla conference, Bob Rohner demonstrated the impossible concept of an expanding/collapsing Noble Gas cycle. Al & JM said it was a fake demo (they were there weren’t they ? NOT – hmmm )

        YouTube is full of videos of people “demonstrating” their perpetual-motion devices. I don’t have to personally review each and every one to know that they are either frauds or self-delusion.

        because you then called Bob Rohner a scammer & then claimed Mike McKubre was supporting this fanciful scam (for which you repeatedly offer no links showing Bob is scamming anyone).

        Rohner reads McKubre’s email, and says the following (not quite word-for-word) based on nothing more than watching a video and reading some emails from Rohner:

        Bob, I believe you and I trust your observations. I am confident that the Papp engine ran for extended periods and did not get hot enough to account for 70% of the energy being dumped as heat.

        The fact that he’s “confident” of these things, based on nothing more than a video and claims by Rohner shows that he is gullible.

        He goes on to say:

        These are very strong statements and I am not willing to make them publicly until I have examined these systems experimentally myself.

        And yet, there he is, appearing publicly with Rohner, allowing Rohner to read his email, even though he gives no indication that he has actually examined the systems experimentally himself.

        This is more support, based on less credible evidence than anything done by Kullander and Essen for Rossi.

        As long as he is willing to “believe and trust” people with impossible devices based on watching a video of a dog & pony show, his opinion shouldn’t be trusted.

        • dsm Reply

          August 19, 2012 at 11:52 pm

          John Millstone

          again you divert !.
          .


          At the Tesla conference, Bob Rohner demonstrated the impossible concept of an expanding/collapsing Noble Gas cycle. Al & JM said it was a fake demo (they were there weren’t they ? NOT – hmmm )

          YouTube is full of videos of people “demonstrating” their perpetual-motion devices. I don’t have to personally review each and every one to know that they are either frauds or self-delusion.

          .
          What you tube is full of is irrelevant to what Bob Rohner demoed at the Tesla conference !.
          .

          because you then called Bob Rohner a scammer & then claimed Mike McKubre was supporting this fanciful scam (for which you repeatedly offer no links showing Bob is scamming anyone).
          .
          Rohner reads McKubre’s email, and says the following (not quite word-for-word) based on nothing more than watching a video and reading some emails from Rohner:
          .
          Bob, I believe you and I trust your observations. I am confident that the Papp engine ran for extended periods and did not get hot enough to account for 70% of the energy being dumped as heat.
          .
          The fact that he’s “confident” of these things, based on nothing more than a video and claims by Rohner shows that he is gullible.

          .
          JM That is totally out of context and is ignoring the statements McKubre made that he wanted to do a detailed investigation and he also believed a fully equiped lab needed to look at the concept
          .

          He goes on to say:

          These are very strong statements and I am not willing to make them publicly until I have examined these systems experimentally myself.

          .
          Yes McKubre is saying he thinks there is something happening that needs investigation ! At last you are starting to quote McKubre *in context*

          .

          And yet, there he is, appearing publicly with Rohner, allowing Rohner to read his email, even though he gives no indication that he has actually examined the systems experimentally himself.

          So what did you just quote above ? ?
          .

          This is more support, based on less credible evidence than anything done by Kullander and Essen for Rossi.

          .
          support for what ??? – you & AP & CC called Bob Rohner a scammer but never once have you provided a convincing link that Bob Rohner is asking anyone to buy fake engines or buy into a scheme !. Are you still saying Bob Rohner is a scammer and McKubre is supporting this scam you won’t identify ? – else, better qualify what you mean by ‘support’
          .

          As long as he is willing to “believe and trust” people with impossible devices based on watching a video of a dog & pony show, his opinion shouldn’t be trusted.

          .
          The ‘believe’ word you are quoting is out of context – you are warping it to contradict what McKubre said about the Nobel gas expansion/contraction effect needing full investigation by him and by a lab. You can’t slander a man for attending a conference where a very unusual effect is being demoed & then says it should be investigated.
          .
          JOHN – Where is the scam Bob Rohner is running ? – please offer some proofs – who & how is he scamming ?
          .
          Thanks
          .
          DSM

          • CuriousChris

            August 20, 2012 at 12:53 am

            Heres a possible scam for you Bob and John are in cahoots…
            Bob uses McKubre to legitimise the papp engine, John Rohner picks up the sales. John gives his ‘estranged’ brother a kickback.

            John Rohner is actively selling devices and licenses. he is also selling the ‘popper’ engine, a toy supposedly based on the device.

            And here is a quote for you direct from the pen of Bob Rohner.

            “Chris
            Although we have no need of independent verification as we have this performed frequently at a local laboratory, I wouldn’t mind have a little support from the land down under. McKubre our physicists is a New Zealander, It sounds like you certainly know your stuff”

            In another email to me…

            “we are a for-profit company who is not fishing for investors nor selling engines. I cannot present these verifications as they by nature reveal the process”

            “McKubre our physicist” Bobs words not mine

            A “for profit company not selling …” Sounds like a word for word from Rossi doesn’t it. as a for profit company his intention MUST BE to sell engines or licenses. where do you think the “for profit” comes from eh, selling bananan’s?

            And from the mouth of McKubre. I repeat it because you appear to have not read it or chose to ignore it. At 4:34 in the video…

            “one of the things that most convinced me that this machine really did operate …”

            Open your eyes dear DSM you are reminding me so much now of GH the same frantic lack of rationalism.

          • dsm

            August 20, 2012 at 1:19 am

            Curious Chris
            .
            I didn’t ask you to come up with speculation about how Bob *might* be scamming ?. I asked you to provide links to back up your claim that Bob Rohner is a scammer & McKubre backing his ‘scam’. This all began with Bob Rohner & Mike McKubre and never included John Rohner !. I keep reminding you of this but because you have no substance you keep trying to redirect attention away.
            .
            Just provide links to the Bob Rohner ‘scam’, then the words used by McKubre to support your claimed ‘scam’.
            .
            If you can’t provide those proofs can we just calm this down by agreeing that you may have gone a bit over the top in saying Bob Rohner was a scammer & Mike McKubre was backing his scam.
            .
            Also Chris I also told you that who gives (you know what) as to if Bob Rohner understands the science of Noble Gas expansion/contraction. The issue is did he demonstrate it ?. If a scientist looks at his impossible demo & says, this needs investigation it is up to the scientists to disprove or hypothesize how it works.
            .
            Bob Rohner does not have to prove the theory first ! – please get that into your head !.
            .
            If it can’t be proved but he can keep demoing it then it is exactly the same situation that exists for LENR theory.
            .
            And now Chris, are you seriously saying you can justify slander of McKubre because of one word in a Bob Rohner email (‘our’ scientist) what pure unadulterated BS !.
            .
            So yet once again I am asking where is Bob Rohner’s scam site where he sells fake engines ?. You never answer but you continue to push your accusations. Like I keep saying slander is a lousy way to disagree with a reputable scientist !.
            .
            Then Chris distorts by selective quoting about the engine McKubre speaks of. You are a charmer Chris.
            .
            DSM

          • dsm

            August 20, 2012 at 1:33 am

            Chris
            .
            here is an intelligence test for you
            .
            Which engine owned by who is McKure speaking about in your highly selective & out of context quote ?
            .
            “one of the things that most convinced me that this machine really did operate …”
            .
            And how does a belief that this engine worked justify your slander ?. Again you keep ignoring the other words of McKubre that speak of Bob Rohner’s demo needing full investigation by him then a fully equiped lab.
            .
            DSM
            (Where are the links to the Bob Rohner scam ?)

          • CuriousChris

            August 20, 2012 at 4:27 am

            Bob Rohner is preparing to scam. What do you think “for profit” means? Or he is deluded and truly believes he can get his machine working. In which case he is a fool.

            Do you need to be led by the hand to realise somethings a scam, can’t you use your own deductive skills?

            Most sceptics are here because they use their deductive skills not because they follow the lead of others.

            Does it matter which engine in particular McKubre was talking about. He was actually basing his statement of belief on an anecdote recited by Bob Rohner. Does that inspire confidence in you? It doesn’t in me.

            Where and when did I say Bob had to prove the theory? You made that up, tell me where I say such.

            Does Rossi have to prove the theory or DGT or Celani or Hagglestein. No none of them have to prove a theory. I have never asked or expected them to. Nor has any other sceptic on this site. Just something else you have made up.

            They have to prove they have a working device that fulfills their fanciful claims. That’s all!.

            “Intelligence test” Yet another example of how low you have descended. I have now moved from confusion/pity to disgust.

            Oh and the link to a scam you wanted
            from his very own brother…
            http://www.rohnerengineering.com/

          • dsm

            August 20, 2012 at 6:10 am

            CuriousChris
            .
            CC Said: “Bob Rohner is preparing to scam. What do you think “for profit” means? Or he is deluded and truly believes he can get his machine working. In which case he is a fool.”
            .
            So from Bob Rohner is a scammer you are now falling back to the position in your humble opinion he is preparing to scam !. God spare me !. But are you still seeking to justify slandering Bob & Mike on the strength of that ?.
            .
            CC said: “Where and when did I say Bob had to prove the theory? You made that up, tell me where I say such. “
            .
            Chris you brought up the issue of contacting Bob Rohner & then criticized him here for not knowing how the Noble Gas expansion/contraction worked !. That was your point. I replied to you back in that thread that Bob did not need to know how it worked or the theory, he just has to demo it !.
            .
            CC said: “Does it matter which engine in particular McKubre was talking about”
            .
            Too bloody right it matters sport because you are twisting & dodging the original topic so fast it is the *only* way to nail you to the floor to face what you said (including your slander).
            .
            CC said: “Does Rossi have to prove the theory or DGT or Celani or Hagglestein. No none of them have to prove a theory. I have never asked or expected them to. Nor has any other sceptic on this site. Just something else you have made up.

            They have to prove they have a working device that fulfills their fanciful claims. That’s all!.”
            .
            For F’s sake we are talking about Bob Rohner & Mike McKubre not those people !. Again you try to distract focus from your slander of Bob & Mike! – just face it !.
            .
            CC said: “Intelligence test” Yet another example of how low you have descended. I have now moved from confusion/pity to disgust.
            .
            No Chris you are sooo embarrassed at getting nailed for your slanderous allegations that you are hating having your nose rubbed so firmly it it. Poor Chris ! – perhaps next time you may think a bit more carefully before persisting with a slander against a very respected scientist. This could have ended 2 weeks ago but no you just chose to keep it up.
            .
            CC said: “Oh and the link to a scam you wanted from his very own brother…”
            .
            Chris, where is the scam ! where are the links to Bob Rohner’s company selling useless Noble Gas engines ? Where is he selling agencies ? .
            .
            It seems you are so desperate you will post any crap. It has been said all along that the Rohners are in competition with each other & even John is not claiming Bob is running a scam, John just rants on about who has the rights & patents & only he can deliver the world of new energy. If you want to call John Rohner names please feel free (but do back up anything that might amount to open slander).
            .
            Again you fail on all counts. All you have to do is say you got it wrong to call Bob Rohner a scammer & McKubre as supporting the scam (unless of course you can provide real proofs & not your current load of waffle.).
            .
            DSM

  37. Dale G. Basgall Reply

    August 19, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    It’s really an awsome feeling when someone comes out with something new in technology, like LENR a Holy Grail buried deep. And then as time passes you see only the box of the Grail. It’s like a big scribed circle path your following, and the diameter get’s larger as time passes. Going around the same path but taking just a little more time to get to the same point as before.

    It appears the steam is cooling down and the words that; “if it seems to good to be true, it usually is” comes to mind.

    The really obsurd emotions are those of being deceived, of which we have been and will continue to be until someone get’s on the ball and develops this LENR. Obsurd is also the fact that Mr. Rossi had no purpose to deceive and tell us that a product e-cat was on it’s way and he in fact used them to heat his factory. He must have believed without doubt he was stating fact or he wouldn’t have told us that in early 2011.

    I am really stuck on this one issue, scam, and in a court of law the burden of proof remains on the plaintiff so in this arena where posters publish the word scam I am really puzzled at how that poster could contrive that this LENR issue with Rossi is a scam.

    So I am taking the words now from the posters who recite scam but do not provide any evidence of why they think we have a scam here with LENR/Rossi/Defkalion?

    Just provide one shread of evidence this contraversial subject with Mr. Rossi is a scam and please add your voice as to what you believe his motive was. Please also add the Defkalion claim to scam.

    This is a sincere request and I am really trying to understand better how the LENR could be a scam?

    • JNewman Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 8:00 pm

      Dale, I don’t recall anybody claiming that LENR is a scam, so you are not likely to get an answer to your question.

      As for Rossi and Defkalion, there is indeed no proof of a scam. It is possible that they are completely on the up and up. On the other hand, both continue to make completely unsubstantiated claims of greater and greater improbability and both at least make noise about selling licenses, distributorships, investments and what have you. The motive of the scam, if there is one, is to fleece people out of their money. Has this happened? We don’t know. Has there been any real development done by either party? We don’t know. All we have is a bunch of hearsay on the internet. But, it does not take the imagination of a houseplant to see how this could be a scam.

      I have no clue why you are perplexed by the notion that this could be a scam. That is by far the most likely explanation for everything that has happened. Does that mean it definitely is a scam? No. Sometimes the unlikely happens. Fortunately, most of us don’t have to decide. We can just watch the circus. If it pleases you to think there is no scam, then by all means think there is no scam. Unless you plan to fork up your own money to find out, it really doesn’t matter.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 8:46 pm

      I suggest you google Madison Priest, Steorn, Carl Tilley, Sniffex, SunCube, anything by Mark Goldes (especially the “MEG”), anything by Bearden or Bedini, anything about “remote viewing”, and just for good measure below is a link to a Sierra Club article about solar energy scams:

      http://connect.sierraclub.org/forums/Topic4293528-2352-1.aspx#bm4344522

      If you’ve not looked into scams, you can’t know how they work and that isn’t your fault. I don’t think, for example, that McKubre is dishonest. Neither are Kullander, Essen, and Lewan. But they were not familiar with and looking for scams and scammers! They got fooled and deceived.

      On a milder scale, I’ve been involved in the past, mainly when I was a student, in legitimate research projects for the US military and other government agencies. When we had finished the work, it didn’t give good results. Years later, I realized that our bosses who had applied for this research finding, knew IN ADVANCE that the work was likely to give bad results. They exaggerated some facts and probably made up others to get the grants. They didn’t care about the customer. It’s very common.

      Rossi and Defkalion aren’t quite like that. They are likely to be much worse. I think Rossi has a mental problem. I think Defkalion are hoping they can find LENR that works before the money and the time runs out but that despite their claims, they know that they now have nothing. That’s just opinion folks, not facts. In my opinion, Rossi is a paranoid sociopath.

      • dsm Reply

        August 20, 2012 at 1:44 am

        Al
        I suggest you Google Bob Rohner & find evidence he is selling impossible Papp engines or offering agencies for them.
        .
        You have blown a massive hole in your credibility as much because you lack the integrity to admit you screwed up in calling Bob Rohner a scammer & because you then slandered Mike McKubre as backing this non existent ‘scam’.
        .
        Who is going to believe anything else you claim on any LENR topic now ?
        .
        DSM

        • John Milstone Reply

          August 20, 2012 at 2:13 am

          I suggest you Google Bob Rohner & find evidence he is selling impossible Papp engines or offering agencies for them.

          I don’t know why I’m bothering; you’ve become as bad as George Hants, but here’s my last attempt to reason with you:

          I just Googled “rossi scam isn’t asking for money”, and got 20 million hits.

          I’m sure most of them are unrelated to this discussion, but most of the top hits are from people defending Rossi because “he isn’t asking anyone for money”.

          That excuse was used throughout 2011 to defend Rossi. Of course, as soon as the excitement level hit the proper level, Rossi did start asking for money.

          So far, Rohner looks exactly like Rossi in January 2011. How much are you willing to bet that he won’t start asking for money once he’s generated enough hype, with the help of McKubre (just as Rossi did with the help of Kullander, Essen, and the others)?

          • dsm

            August 20, 2012 at 2:50 am

            John

            .
            What is happening is you slandered someone who did not deserve it then you lacked the integrity to withdraw the claim when challenged to back it up.
            .
            2 weeks ago I offered you a face saving compromise in a post that quoted the Tesla McKubre video minute by minute and in proper context.
            .
            There was a way out but then you and your now cohorts just keep slandering Bob Rohner & Mike McKubre.
            .
            So are you the antithesis of George Hants ? – you & cohorts keep falsely slandering people you disagree with & then not only fail to offer anything in justification (Bob’s alleged scam). But you just keep it going with *no* evidence.
            .
            DSM

        • Al Potenza Reply

          August 20, 2012 at 2:16 am

          I have no idea how Bob Rhoner makes a living. But he’s obviously promoting a scheme and a device that can’t possibly work. I took a brief look at his web site and frankly, I don’t recall where the scam is. When I can I will look again. I am sure there is a scam there somewhere otherwise why the silly engine?

          His brother is an obvious scammer and the engine is a scam. It’s very funny the way John Rhoner pulled the wool over Sterling Allen’s eyes. Though that’s not unusual, the ease and nonsense that Rhoner used is unusually hilarious.

          That’s here:

          http://pesn.com/2012/08/18/9602162_My_Visit_to_Inteligentry/

          And there’s an even dumber link above that one on the main Peswiki page.

          There is no reason why McKubre should support this nonsense unless he’s hopelessly gullible and that seems to be what the situation is. If he’s gullible about that, why wouldn’t he be equally gullible about claims for LENR?

          I am amazed that anyone here is dumb enough to think you can extract free energy from noble gases, enough to run a car for weeks on a liter or so without refueling. If you believe that, you’ll believe just about ANYTHING.

          • dsm

            August 20, 2012 at 2:30 am

            Al
            .
            It was Bob Rohner along ewith Mike McKubre you slandered so please lets stick with him.
            .
            You said “But he’s obviously promoting a scheme and a device that can’t possibly work.”
            .
            So where is the obviously – ? I can’t find any scheme being promoted by him so it is not obvious. Also this is a sideways departure from your earlier statements. You called Bob a scammer !.

            .
            So are you claiming that you can slander Bob Rohner & Mike McKubre on the strength of your lack of research & your biased opinion ?.
            .
            You keep darting off to point at John Rohner just as CC is doing. Just stick to the original thread where it was about the Tesla conference and Bob Rohner doing a demo & Mike McKubre attending and being willing to make comments about what needs to be done to investigate the effect.
            .
            Al – you still have not backed up in *any* plausible way your justification for slandering a recognized scientist.
            .
            If you just said it once I would not be kicking your tail but you keep saying it and in many different threads, so I keep kicking you.
            .
            If you can’t back up your slander then just back down.
            .
            Thanks
            .
            DSM

            .
            “I am amazed that anyone here is dumb enough to think you can extract free energy from noble gases, enough to run a car for weeks on a liter or so without refueling. If you believe that, you’ll believe just about ANYTHING.”
            .
            PS Al I am jumping all over you about what you keep saying about Bob & McKubre – I am not as you now trying to claim, backing the Papp engine, I am saying the effect deserves investigation. So once again you distort the story to dodge the bullet.

  38. buffalo Reply

    August 19, 2012 at 8:06 pm

    well lets analyse this.lets assume rossi is a scam and makes a coupla milion dollars and keeps the game going,and going.its a huge risk he is taking. i mean surely an impatient investor will have him bumped? Unless he puts all the money in the bank and just siphons the interest and is then able to refund investors in full,mm

    • Jami Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 8:57 pm

      buffalo, look at the licensing contracts. There is nothing in there binding Rossi to anything at all. And besides – whoever is enough of an idiot to buy a license at the current state of affairs (would you? didn’t think so) would probably believe whatever stupid reason Rossi comes up with for the naxt delay anyway. Even in 10 or 20 years.

    • John Milstone Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 10:15 pm

      buffalo, you obviously haven’t reviewed the history of known “free-energy” and other, similar, con men. Plenty of links have been posted here and other places.

      They can keep this going for years.

      And, I’ve never heard of a case where the con man ever had an “exit strategy”. They all seem to think they can just keep it going forever.

  39. freethinker Reply

    August 19, 2012 at 10:47 pm

    You are the sadest bunch of pathosceptic screeking old doornails I ever saw. Evidence shall soon enough jump up and bite you all.

    LENR is real, you halfwits, so you are betting on the wrong pony.

    • Dale G. Basgall Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 11:36 pm

      We have been upgraded!

    • Al Potenza Reply

      August 19, 2012 at 11:45 pm

      “LENR is real”
      -
      Phhhhewwwwwwwwwww! I am SO GLAD that is finally settled. So tell me, how many millions should I invest in Rossi and Defkalion?

      • Paul Reply

        August 20, 2012 at 2:13 am

        None, but I wouldn’t sink a lot of money into solar or wind at the moment either.

        Siemens might be a good investment at the moment.

      • RonB Reply

        August 20, 2012 at 6:09 am

        lol Al, you really crack me up! I enjoy reading your posts. I even sometimes agree with you.

    • CuriousChris Reply

      August 20, 2012 at 12:58 am

      Oh hell why didn’t I see that.

      All I had to do was say “LENR is real” and click my heels together three times.

      • Bettingman Reply

        August 20, 2012 at 7:46 am

        You would end up in Bologna…

    • Ivy Matt Reply

      August 20, 2012 at 3:00 am

      How soon?

  40. JNewman Reply

    August 20, 2012 at 1:39 am

    It seems like one of Sterling Allen’s zoo of impossible gadgets escapes his website each month and stirs up a hornet’s nest here. First it was magnetic motors, then cars that run on water, and now noble gas engines. Makes you think that Rossi is a gateway drug to the wild world of woo.

  41. daniel maris Reply

    August 20, 2012 at 1:46 am

    Over to DSM to defend the noble gas engine. I can’t say I found Sterling Allen’s account of it too reassuring. And if he can’t make it sound like a runner…

    Perhaps DSM can explain why he finds it so compelling.

    • dsm Reply

      August 20, 2012 at 1:58 am

      Daniel
      .
      I *am not* defending the Noble Gas engine. I am defending Mike McKubre against false accusations that he is supporting a scam.
      .
      I believe as does Mike McKubre as did Gene Mallove that the Noble gas expansion/contraction effect deserves scientific investigation.
      .
      So claiming something needs investigation vs claiming something works 100% is a world apart.
      .
      Do you understand this ? (nup :) – are you able to comprehend the point of the many posts on the topic ( nup :) ) – but we live in hope don’t we :)
      .
      Cheers
      .
      DSM

      • Al Potenza Reply

        August 20, 2012 at 2:11 am

        “I believe as does Mike McKubre as did Gene Mallove that the Noble gas expansion/contraction effect deserves scientific investigation.”
        -
        Papp was a crook. Feynman was right. He just didn’t have enough time and opportunity to find out what the trick is. Beyond that, Rhoner is an obvious, clear cut, monumental, complete, absolute fraud. He speaks like a scammer, acts like a scammer and the stuff he showed could not possibly work by the farthest stretch of any imagination.

        I don’t know what deserves any scientific investigation because there is nothing that has ever been produced that suggests in any way that noble gases are a source of energy. In fact, everything known about physics and chemistry makes it clear that they can’t.

        McKubre said favorable things about Rhoner and his machine when he should have said that he never seen the slightest evidence that they work as advertised, had never seen a working engine, and had no a priori reason to think that an engine based on noble gases could possibly work. Instead he mumbled vague encouragement which could be misunderstood by a hapless investor. It was incredibly gullible… if he was being honest. There is absolutely no excuse for McKubre’s behavior with respect to Rhoner and his engine.

        • dsm Reply

          August 20, 2012 at 2:37 am

          Al
          .
          Papp could be the owner of the biggest funny farm in the world”. Papps character is not the question here now, it is the demo of the Noble gas expansion/contraction effect & at the Tesla event.
          .
          We are talking about a belief as to if it deserves investigation.
          .
          You slandered Bob Rohner & Mike McKubre then refuse to provide the evidence that Bob is running a scam & McKubre is supporting it.
          .
          You are dodging faster & in more directions that a hunted rabbit with a hound dog on its soon to be chewed tail.
          .
          Run boy run :)
          .
          DSM
          Where is Bob Rohner’s scam ?

        • dsm Reply

          August 20, 2012 at 2:57 am

          Al
          .
          “There is absolutely no excuse for McKubre’s behavior with respect to Rhoner and his engine.”
          .
          There you go again !. Rohner’s engine !. What engine ?. The Tesla event showed a demo of an expansion/contraction effect & McKubre said it needs investigation.
          .
          Stick to the point Al.

          .
          DSM

  42. Dale G. Basgall Reply

    August 20, 2012 at 6:26 am

    I may have missed this one earlier however if not, I thought this latest Celani patent application publication in May 2012 was a good read.

    http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20120531ptan20120134915.php

  43. Guru Reply

    August 20, 2012 at 6:49 am

    Folks, E-Cat is in fact producing MORE energy then is equivalent of all transmuted materials in device fuel plus all input energy:

    Andrea Rossi
    August 19th, 2012 at 5:57 PM
    Dear Guru:
    b) is better.
    Warm Regards,.
    A.R.
    ………………………….
    Guru
    August 19th, 2012 at 3:23 AM
    Dear dr. Rossi,
    last few months I carry in my mind this question:

    a) A sum of output energy from E-Cat is equivalent to sum of all transmuted materials plus all energy inputs ?

    or
    b) A sum of output energy from E-Cat is many times bigger then equivalent of all transmuted materials (in fuel) plus all energy inputs ?

    I have this heretic hypothesis, that b) is in order.

    • dsm Reply

      August 20, 2012 at 6:55 am

      Rossi is teasing you :)

      Cheers

      DSM

    • Ivy Matt Reply

      August 20, 2012 at 7:45 am

      Rossi’s claims are getting increasingly outrageous. Next thing you know, he’ll be claiming his E-Cat is powered by some sort of nuclear reaction.

  44. General Zaroff Reply

    August 20, 2012 at 6:55 am

    Methusela said:
    ‘Your supposed aim is to protect investors.’

    No, this was never my aim. My plans are a little bit more diabolical. I am here to drive people into the arms of PESN, hoping that they will eventually invest. The types that do invest will surely be of the dumbest variety, and they will quickly lose all of their money.

    “Well General Zaroff”, you say, “why would you want that to happen?”

    An excellent question, my short-sighted friend. But let me answer with a question of my own: What do uneducated, poor people do?

    A quick review of global population dynamics suggests that they tend to breed, a lot. Making lots of uneducated, poor babies. This is where I come in.

    “How could you possibly benefit from this proliferation of stupidity?” you ask. Well, for a few dollars a head, I intend to buy these poor, uneducated babies and use them as batteries in a large-scale operation.

    It turns out that upon maturation, each of my fully-grown ‘units’ will produce about 100 W power. That means I only need 100 units for each of my 10 kW plants.

    I have dubbed my system ‘the matrix’. There are still a few unbalanced equations I have to work out. I will be looking for investors soon, and I will offer everyone here a chance to get in on the ground floor.

    • Methusela Reply

      August 20, 2012 at 7:13 am

      I think you’ve taken neither the blue bill nor the red one.

      Did you take one with a smiley face stamped on it?

      • General Zaroff Reply

        August 20, 2012 at 7:19 am

        I am just trying to find constructive solutions to the energy crisis Methusela. Like you, only the solutions I propose have scientific merit.

    • DvH Reply

      August 20, 2012 at 7:53 am

      will we get reports of independent testers or just some research-papers in some dubious online-journal?

    • daniel maris Reply

      August 20, 2012 at 9:24 am

      Are you still working for the Ayn Rand Institute General, or do you find them insufficiently robust these days? I remember Ayn once saying to me in that familiar guttural accent of hers: “Tish Zusharoff will go far, very far…he alone hoff all my dishiples onndershtand mech ideas.”

      • dsm Reply

        August 20, 2012 at 9:30 am

        Daniel
        .
        Was Ayn trying to eat a banana at the same time as talking ?
        .
        Just wondering :)
        .
        DSM

        • Supervisor Reply

          August 20, 2012 at 10:22 am

          Ayn Rand was only agent cover name. She was in reality Khazarian in real name: Alisa Zinovyevna Rosenbaum

          A number of Khazar agents was sent to U.S. with subversive tasks of all sorts.

  45. General Zaroff Reply

    August 20, 2012 at 7:17 am

    If I may, I would like to bring a balanced view to the Papp-smear campaign that has been going on around here. After a careful review, I have decided that the Papp engine is a scam. Both Rohners are scam artists. Scammity-scam-scam-scam.

    I don’t want to slander McKubree because I like to avoid controversial statements. But I do suspect that during the demo he must have inhaled a lot of gasoline fumes or whatever fuel Rohner is scamming with. As someone with a lot of experience inhaling toxic fumes, I cna confidently say that McKubree would have been hard-pressed to find his hands, let alone evaluate the perpetual motion machine in front of him.

    DSM, you are utterly delirious. And before you answer back angrily, please remind me which Rohner has two top-secret PhDs from MIT?

    • dsm Reply

      August 20, 2012 at 8:30 am

      Trust the General to have his say :)
      .
      General you are a naughty boy and need a damned good spanking.
      .
      You know that the only way science moves forward is over the crumpled bodies of the myopic old farts of scientists once they have been kicked out of the way and their obstructive & sometimes dementia entrenched views have been silenced :)
      .
      It is up to a new generation of scientists to learn to make asses of themselves should they so choose.
      .
      Am sure we all recall the immortal words of the great great Edison when asked what he thought about this young upstart scientist’s theory about relatives (or whatever :) ). When asked directly his thoughts he said “I haave none because I don’t understand anything he said”. He was of course referring to Albert Einstein. And so soon after that another old fart bit the dust and got out of the way.
      .
      So general who do we have to kick out of the way today :)
      .
      DSM

    • RonB Reply

      August 20, 2012 at 12:22 pm

      General,
      The use of noble gases to power an engine isn’t as crazy as it might at first seem.
      I’m not saying that these people have something or not since only time will tell for sure but the idea that it’s just not possible is naive at best.
      Others here (Al for one) are outraged by the idea but there’s still so much unknown about noble gases I don’t think we can rule out a possibility.

      Imagine the surprise when scientists discovered they could form a noble gas compound (xenon difluoride) just by exposing Xe and F2 to sunlight!

      It’s possible caged compounds ( a Clathrate ) could be very unstable.

  46. Jami Reply

    August 20, 2012 at 10:41 am

    Re. the Rohners

    I don’t know why I’m bothering to do this – but can anybody explain to me (preferably with a nice grafik) how the Rohner family tree looks like, who founded this and stole that and inherited the other thing, who claims having invented or patented what, who holds which secret Phd and a cross referenced list of who accuses who of fraud for what? I spent almost an entire minute on google trying to figure it out – but no luck.

    • dsm Reply

      August 20, 2012 at 11:28 am

      Jami ( a very very condensed view)
      .
      Tom & Bob Rohner worked with Josef Papp in the early years to develop particular versions of the Papp engine. They weren’t there right at the start but came in soon after Papp had shown his volvo based version.
      .
      Papp had created 2 versions – one a volvo & another something else. Then he got the Rohner’s Tom & Bob involved. Bob did the engine as he ran a machine shop & Tom the electronics as he was an electronics specialist who had been at HP but later started his one succesful business. So both had their own quite successful businesses.
      .
      When Papp wanted to do a 3rd engine Bob said he could build a far better one than Papp had. Bob built one (paid for by Papp investors) & Papp agreed it was better. IIRC this was the engine on which the state (can’t recall which) ran Dyno tests on & then the dyno tester was tested. The records are still all on view.
      .

      John Rohner only got involved much much later after a series of problems & failed efforts & well after Papp died. Papp had formed a partnership with a guy called Sabori. Sabori funded Papp to do more development but Papp was a regular flake who was far more interested in spending other people’s money than completing a final design. Papp used millions to buy a flash house in Florida & his own aircraft (after a vist to Oshkosh airshow). He also did several European tours at his investors expense. Like I said Papp was an A hole (with a capital). Bob Rohner will attest to this as he watched Papp doing it all.
      .
      Papp’s Noble engine design apparently worked :) – but had issues. It ran at relatively low rpm but the stroke & pressure of the expansion effect was such that it delivered surprisingly high power at low rpm. He had big problems trying to vary the speed. He partly solved this by adjusting the mix of Noble gasses which varied the expansion & thus changed the displacement & thus varied the speed, a little.
      .
      After Sabori & Papp had a falling out a judge ordered Papp to provide Sabori with half of his assets & the design, but Papp deliberately held out on his gas preparation. Sabori did what he could to resurrect the engine but he then died & another party IIRC got the assets.
      .
      The story at this point gets very confused because at some point John Rohner got the assets & went to war with his brothers.
      .
      John Rohner has been described as delusional (this was said on a PESN link & it is pretty unusual for PESN to say that about anyone. I have watched videos by John & been in email contact but long before that I personally concluded he was a man with problems. Then to cap that off I saw where he claimed he had 2 PhDs from around 1964 or so but when some people sought to investigate this he claimed they were secret PhDs (yeah) & are not on record.
      .
      You only have to read John Rohner’s web sites to conclude he is on a crash & burn flight path and that will become evident when Dec 11 rolls up & he either turns up at the Florida energy show with a stack of working Papp engines (these are all on view at his web sites) or is located in some insane asylum for the seriously deranged & delusional. I can’t say for sure how it will turn out but my money is on a crash and burn.
      .
      In the above story I haven’t covered the infamous TRW demos where the 2nd one showing his engine (the Volvo I think), got interfered with by Richard Feynman & it exploded killing 1 executive & seriously injuring 2 others. The most reliable accounts are that Papp used mains to manage the engine speed controller & when Feynman removed the power (Feynman claims Papp did but others claim Feynman did) & refused to hand the plug back to Papp, Papp got frantic & demanded it back & as soon as he reconnected the power the engine exploded. Again it is opinion as to what exploded really means as one supposedly reliable eyewitness said that just before the failure the engine had begun to run erratically then speed up. The damage was largely caused by a con rod through the crankcase & bits of that hitting the unfortunate bystanders.
      .
      It is MHO that this event was really why Papp never progressed the engine. He won an out of court settlement against Feynman & Caltech (Feynman accused Papp of fitting explosives in the engine to blow it up when he feared discovery but the police investigation found no evidence for Feynman’s weird assertion & as history shows, Caltech paid up.
      .
      It was after that event that Tom & Bob Rohner got involved. Much later after the Sabori JV failed that Tom & Bob tried to rebuild an engine based on the fact that the pair had built one of the most successful versions but Papp never allowed them near his gas mixing & thus they have spent years trying to get to understand the gases, the prep & the timing. There are many factors (such as the coil used to create the plasma just before the sparking event. The std gas mix was said to have a 1 to 5 expansion. That could be varied down to 1 to 4.
      .
      Anyway this is some of the story & you the reader can only take it for what it is. It proves nothing but there are some people (me included) who think it is worth exploring the claimed expansion of Noble gas that is cycled in the Papp way.
      .
      It may amount to nothing but I often say, when a scientist can fully explain ball lightning, I may believe we have obtained another secret from nature. Was Papp’s engine somehow related ? – maybe, lets try to find out (well let us shove it onto McKubre to do a further eval) !.
      .
      DSM
      .
      PS Papp died of cancer & some have speculated it was due to long periods of radiation exposure. But who knows other than it was cancer & he was *relatively* young.

      • Jami Reply

        August 20, 2012 at 11:43 am

        Thanks a lot, DSM.

        • John Milstone Reply

          August 20, 2012 at 1:21 pm

          For your further entertainment, Joseph Papp also claimed to have built a submarine that could travel at 300 MPH.

          He claimed to have sailed it from Canada to France in 13 hours, although the submarine supposedly sunk just short of his goal and he was supposedly picked up bobbing in the water off of France.

          LINK, LINK

          Of course, this preposterous story should in no way impeach any other preposterous stories he told.

        • dsm Reply

          August 21, 2012 at 12:33 am

          Jami
          .
          One other very hard to dispute demo done a week or so before the TRW demo where the engine ‘exploded’, was a demo Papp did for the Navy Underwater Warfare Lab.
          .
          Videos & eyewitnesses still exist. Papp said he would show just how powerful the expansion phase of his Noble gas trigger could be. He took a cylinder plus the head from one of his engines & machined up a projectile (equiv to a piston) he had the Navy seal the breech & barrel in concrete & then as they watched & supervised he took several cc of Nobel Gas and syringed it into the sealed head of the cylinder through a special inlet port. He showed that if the gas was exposed to flame nothing happened (did this prior to injecting it).
          .
          The idea was that when he fired it, the projectile would be fired from the cylinder.
          .
          But when he triggered his plasma-fireball cycle the whole thing blew to bits when the projectile jammed in the cylinder. The cylinder was split open like a banana peel. What the demo showed was how dangerous this technology (assuming it was as everyone understood) could be and this was proven again a week later at the TRW demo.
          .
          If the demos were as claimed then again I see a good reason why Papp may have become increasingly concerned about what can go wrong with his Noble gas cycle.
          .
          Again assuming there was a rapid 1:5 expansion at great power, then I am sitting here wondering how anyone might produce an engine that could be regarded as safe.
          .
          It seems to me there is the potential for an electronics/timing failure to blow apart the engine with potential fatal consequences for anyone nearby. This aspect remains in my mind as something of a showstopper should the cycle be proven and repeatable.
          .
          DSM

        • dsm Reply

          August 21, 2012 at 12:50 am

          Also,
          Am quite sure I came across a news report (I posted the link here some weeks back) where it was stated that after the engine fatality, the major parties who were most interested in Papp’s engines all lost interest.
          .
          Again I believe any sensible corporation would not want to be involved in any litigation where consumers were being killed by failures of the engines.
          .
          DSM
          .
          Here is the story (just located it) – it tells it better than I did in my posts.
          .
          http://www.rohnermachine.com/Files/TheDreamMachine.pdf
          .
          EXCERPT 1:
          Then came the clash. Roser wanted to put on a public demonstration. Papp was opposed. The old Volvo engine was rusted, he said. It might be dangerous. Instead, he suggested a more impressive demonstration. One Sunday in October 1968 they trooped out to the desert with six or eight engineers and a homemade cannon, to be powered by Papp’s invention.
          The barrel was four feet long, four inches in diameter, made of 1/4-inch stainless steel and anchored in a concrete block. For the breech they used a spare cylinder head from Papp’s engine; for a projectile they machined a piece of steel.
          Papp filled the cylinder with his gases and hooked up the power. “We heard this tremendous explosion. It was a low rumble, like a bass sound,” Roser says. The projectile had jammed halfway up the barrel and ripped the cannon in half. The back of the gun flared open like a tulip.
          .
          EXCERPT 2:
          The observers were impressed. But if Roser was going to sell the engine to anyone, he needed to have it thoroughly examined. And he still wanted a public show. Papp objected again, but Roser was firm. He had seen Papp and his family standing next to the engine while it purred away; he doubted there was much danger.
          The crowd that showed up one Monday in November 1968 included engineers, reporters and, Roser says, an attorney from TRW with a $3.5 million contract in his pocket. It also included a few students from Caltech and their professor: Richard Feynmann, skeptic.

  47. Defender Reply

    August 20, 2012 at 1:09 pm

    I cannot believe the incredible naive believe, that the E-Cat would solve anything. Every five days the population of the species homo sapiens is growing 1 million.
    Every five days!
    How can anyone believe that cheaper energy would solve any problems?
    The problems we have alredy have come because of cheap energy.
    The lamenting about high fuel costs IMO is ridiculous. I can fly for less than 50,- EUR between european cities.
    I can eat every day meat and it costs nothing.
    Even the workless people are getting FATTER.

    Energy is not the problem, the problem is the species, which population explodes and which has the tools to destroy the planet but is dumb enough to believe that it was standing above nature and above the laws of nature and were something special.

    The E-Cat will make things only worse because energy will become even less exensive.

    Mother earth will be squeezed dry of all resources – not only oil – even faster.

    • Jami Reply

      August 20, 2012 at 1:27 pm

      Don’t worry. If whatever you have is contagious, at least half of us will die from malthusian despair in no time.

    • Guru Reply

      August 20, 2012 at 3:34 pm

      Defender, I believe You are Ted Turner.

      This straight man, who have 6 childrens and is talking about ned to decreasing population by some 5-6 billion folks down and about need to castrate folks who onetime during life go for some social help.

      Or You are his agent ?

    • Bettingman Reply

      August 20, 2012 at 3:40 pm

      The birth rate drops when a country get’s richer. In most rich country’s the population (excluding immigrants) is declining. Cheap energy will lead to more wealth so a cheap energy is very effective way to combat overpopulation, and it’s consequences.

  48. Jami Reply

    August 20, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    Meanwhile… DGT seem to reopen their forum, kind of. I didn’t keep track, but If they really do, it may be the very first promise they ever kept.

    In a new post dated today 12:10pm, they state:

    “It is the intention of Defkalion to provide the Community with a serious and progressive area for discourse that will rise above existing pedantic comments that reduces the importance this field deserves. Defkalion is a company focused on the commercialization of LENR with proven commitment to facilitate international standards for this game changing source of energy.”

    No idea what they’re going on about… “proven commitment to facilitate international standards”?? Of what???

    Must be the same guy who dreamed up their ICCF presentation, probably taking the same drugs – only more of them.

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