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Celani’s NI Cold Fusion Demo

August 9, 2012

A member of the public and eCat fan has posted the first unofficial (as far as I know) video of Professor Celani’s NI Week demo. He mistakenly believes that Celani is part of Rossi’s team but that does not detract from the tantalizing glimpse he is giving us of the operating apparatus. He brings us close in and although the scientist’s words are often difficult to parse, we get a good view of his graphs. We learn nothing that has not been presented before but so far, this is as close up as we’ve gotten to the real thing. Remember as you watch, that this is a scaled down version of the device and that NI has been closely involved in the test and measurement instrumentation.

Technically, those who complain that this does not yet constitute proof of cold fusion, are correct. A good scientist will reserve judgment and one with a little bit of common sense will begin to wonder and perhaps accidentally let slip a little optimism.

[With thanks to Akira Shirakawa on Vortex , Ivan Mohorovicic on eCatNews and Youtube user, ]

Posted by on August 9, 2012. Filed under Close Up,Competitors,Tests & Demos,Videos. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

211 Responses to Celani’s NI Cold Fusion Demo

  1. Mahron - A4 B2 Reply

    August 9, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    Nice, but where is the gamma radiation ?

  2. Alain Reply

    August 9, 2012 at 4:16 pm

    The proofs are there since long.
    The most crazy is that this demo will have more impact that hundreds of successful experiments and dozens of rock-solids results that let not the least doubt to anyone honest.

    The proofs raised by NASA GRC in 89, replicated in 2005 are enough to convince of a huge real effect, that is not chemical.
    US Navy Spawar confirm and prove condition needed and replicability/stability.
    Celani previous work prove that there is a huge potential of massic or surfacic power.

    Even this small experiment (14W anomaly over 48W fro 55h , with 300mg isostan, 6mm2 wire surface ) , assuming 10 times less anomalous heat than measured, would explain Rossi and Defkalion results, and can rule-out any chemical process.
    http://lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=353#p1565

    IT IS FANTASTIC.

    the result are simply coherent with the one done with a real lab calorimeter, so you can believe them with just a safety margin…

    of course all that results well already known and undoubtable by honest people, but here it is visible by honest mainstream people… ie non scientists.

    • Mahron - A4 B2 Reply

      August 9, 2012 at 4:32 pm

      I don’t get it. If It is nuclear, then shouldn’t there be emissions of gamma rays ? Why isn’t his demo shielded ? An why no gamma ray detector ? wouldn’t that be ultimate proof even without measuring excess heat ?

      • Alain Reply

        August 9, 2012 at 4:41 pm

        That is the mystery.
        Theorist are on the subject.

        But that is the result of the measures.

        Theory explain facts, forecast facts, but don’t constrain them.

      • Ransompw Reply

        August 9, 2012 at 5:17 pm

        Mahron:

        I think the problem is observation trumps theory. That is the scientific method. Up to now, there has been way to much, “if it was nuclear we would see this and that”. Well guess what, that phrase only works if our theory is correct. Dogma should not get in the way of scientific investigation, but I am afraid for some time in this field it has gotten in the way.

        Let the experiments lead us to better knowledge. And let’s stop doubting results if our only reson to doubt is these square facts don’t fit into our round hole.

      • Tiki Reply

        August 9, 2012 at 6:09 pm

        Perhaps it is my ignorance in the field of nuclear physics, however, please someone explain why we must see radiation in a nuclear reaction. The definition of a nuclear reaction doesn’t suggest, at least to me, that all nuclear reactions cause radiation or gamma rays.

        Nuclear Reaction: A reaction that changes the number of protons or neutrons in the nucleus of an atom.

        Therefore, why are many people assuming that gamma radiation must be present in all nuclear reactions? Is this assumption valid or are people pre-conditions to believe that all nuclear reactions are fission reactions and therefore result in gamma radiation?

        • buffalo Reply

          August 9, 2012 at 6:39 pm

          a gamma is result of shockwave pulse of ejected particle.like wen bullet shoots out gun ur hand kicks back frm the recoil

          • Tiki

            August 9, 2012 at 8:38 pm

            Ok… that makes sense in a fission reaction, but in a fusion reaction the sum of the energy of the fusion reaction products equal the total energy liberated as kinetic energy, thus all equals out; and even if an X-Ray or Gamma Ray is emitted or should be a product of the reaction, who is to say that it isn’t being absorbed by a free Neutron, assuming of course, there are free neutrons during these reactions? Thus… no radiation present? I know… assuming… anyway…

            All I’m saying is, it is really easy to assume this or that but… remember, these guys are not all claiming nuclear fission and some are not even claiming nuclear fusion. Therefore, why attribute known factors or elements of physics to what is taking place in these experiments in order to denounce them as fraudulent or science fiction when in fact it seems to be un-known?

            It, at least to me, doesn’t make sense… In my opinion, I want to know more about why this excess heat is showing up, under what conditions and how reliable or reproducible are these conditions. Then and only then will I even care what the physical nature of the reaction taking place truly is, be it nuclear, chemical or something entirely new and un-explored.

            Again, it just seems odd to me that many people here and in other discussions are pointing fingers at these experiments and saying: “aha… it can’t be nuclear because what we would expect out of a nuclear fission reaction isn’t present!” and other are saying “aha, it is nuclear because of the amount of energy etc.”. Personally, I would say, that these type of people should look at what is going on more closely with these lab experiments, and the fact that they seemingly irrefutably produce excess heat… yet… apparently no one really know exactly how or why. Isn’t it worth funding and isn’t it worth some application of the scientific method and community to find out?

            Anyway… just your average working class mans opinion…

        • spacegoat Reply

          August 10, 2012 at 3:24 am

          Nuclear implies transformation of matter into energy, based on the Strong force. It is characterized by the emission of high energy Gamma radiation to rid the decaying nucleus of excess energy after it has emitted either alpha (two protons and two neutrons) or beta radiation (electron).

          Gamma radiation is a very high confidence indicator of a nuclear reaction.

        • Ivy Matt Reply

          August 11, 2012 at 1:54 pm

          Nuclear fusion is often described as two nuclei joining together and releasing “energy”. This is a rather simplistic description. All nuclear reactions release “energy” in the form of highly energetic reaction products ejected (“radiated”, you might say) from the joined nucleus. Those reaction products may or may not include gamma rays; it depends on the specific reaction.

          For nuclear reactions classed as “fusion”, common reaction products are neutrons, protons, positrons, neutrinos, gamma rays, and alpha particles. Positrons in turn release gamma rays upon their annihilation with electrons.

  3. daniel maris Reply

    August 9, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    Certainly looks impressive as a basic demonstration.

    What are the chances of NI not having crawled all over that and measured, re-measured previously? Close to zero I would say. It’s far better a proof than many peer reviewed papers where you have to trust ENTIRELY in the integrity of the scientists publishing the claims (i.e. they could simply have falsified their results – and, let’s be honest, some do and are not found out for many years if at all).

    • Alain Reply

      August 9, 2012 at 4:51 pm

      right.
      all the lack of acteptation about LENR is not in the experiments…
      It is that facing claims that are not compatible with theory, with experiments that honestly cannot be criticized, they assume that it is a fraud.
      then because they cannot say it is a fraud, yet it is common in science everybody now know (see “betrayers of the truth” by wade & broad, or some Nature article on Sci fraud), they find crazy excuses to justify not to believe in the experiment…

      in fact it is simple, they don’t trust the LENR scientists… since anyone working on LENR became instantly a fool for the others, there is no possible “trusted” scientist that could emit accepted results.

      Even a nobel price, even an ex-CERN scientist, like Celani was not trusted. even SPAWAR. even NASA GRC.

      just laugh a littel an read Report 41 rejection letter.
      http://lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=40&p=1185&hilit=report+41#p1185

  4. buffalo Reply

    August 9, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    as i said in previous thread,as a scientist,an open-minded scientist,gama and x-rays in small or even great bursts are not necesarily of nuclear origin.a modern x-ray machine or old tv tube have absolutely zero radio-active components,yet spit owt high energy waves.this excess heat must be attributed to reversable entropy changes in the crystal lattice of the alloy,perhaps in violation of thermodynamics laws

    • Alain Reply

      August 9, 2012 at 4:44 pm

      The quantity of energy released, of 2.7MJ is not compatible with something else nuclear.
      If not nuclear, it is something else, huge like nuclear, and not chemical.

      These facts are known for long time, and the incompatibility with usual reaction is long known.

      the question now is whether you believe that facts or the theory.
      Theory are more comfortable because they don’t surprise you often.

      • buffalo Reply

        August 9, 2012 at 5:18 pm

        mm,perhaps massive bending of H2 bonds during adsorption,then snapping the bonds loose by application of heat? Like a rubberband?maybe this kind of oscillation?

  5. Mahron - A4 B2 Reply

    August 9, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    Ok, so nuclear type energy output but none of the byproducts. Very strange indeed. I hope they can get to the bottom of this before it gets labeled as crap a second time.

    • spacegoat Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 3:30 am

      The theory as I understand it is : Yes nuclear radiation is produced, but it is almost entirely converted to heat within the metal lattice.

  6. Robert Munson Reply

    August 9, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    Well I’m sure the most sceptical of the tribe here will think that NI doesn’t know what their doing or are in league with celani it’s stupid. My prediction is he’ll have investment money very soon.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      August 9, 2012 at 6:54 pm

      NI isn’t doing the experiments. Celani is. As NI’s founder said in the Youtube video “our job is to measure, not judge”.

      So they are not “in league with” Celani, whatever that means. And they don’t decide if what Celani is doing is really cold fusion or LENR or whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

      Celani’s work is promising and interesting but he needs much more robust results and much better write ups before one can conclude that it’s likely that he has a new energy source which is both real and not chemical or a measurement error.

      As for Defkalion and Rossi, the claimants to robust results, they seem to be conspicuous by their absence (Rossi) and by the absence of credible results (Defkalion).

      • Robert Munson Reply

        August 9, 2012 at 11:25 pm

        Al al you talk about is Measurements now u say NI measuring isn’t good. Do we both agree that NI can probably measure accurately celanis device. I think it said NI engineers helped with the machine. What more do u need??
        Looks pretty transparent to me.

      • Robert Munson Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 12:51 am

        S if NI crawls all over this thing And confirms similar numbers what will be your post???

    • Frank Reply

      August 9, 2012 at 7:12 pm

      Here an official statement from a Ni-spokes(wo)man given to Krivit:
      “NI is interested in providing the best tools such as LabVIEW software and NI PXI and CompactRIO hardware towards science research to help understand the underlying physical phenomena behind LENRs and to perform advanced measurements and control on the experiments. National Instruments mission is to equip any scientist and engineer seeking to accelerate productivity, innovation and discovery.”

      I hope that they will do measurements on prototypes like the Celani-type one by themself and release this results – otherwise the ‘demo’ done at NI2012 would just have the value of a show to advertise their LabView product…

  7. Jami Reply

    August 9, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    Re Radiation. Celani wrote:

    “We observed, for the first time in our
    experimentation with such kind of materials, some X (and/or gamma emission), coming-out from the reactor during the increasing of the temperature from about 100°C to 160°C. We used a NaI(Tl) detector, energy range 25-2000keV used as counter (safety purposes) ,not spetrometer. Total time of such emission was about 600s and clearly detectable, burst like.”

    which is an embarrassingly unscientific and silly statement to make. But if Celani ever reads this blog, he will still feel happy about it. Because if he had written:

    “For the first time in our experiments, my wife called me down to the kitchen for lunch while the reactor reached about 120 C or something there abouts. We ate spaghetti and had half a liter of Frascati with it.”

    it would be about equally as insignificant and anecdotal and, as such, fitting for the rest of the paper – but some of you guys here would now claim in all seriousnes that it has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that LENR can cook.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      August 9, 2012 at 6:50 pm

      LOL!

    • buffalo Reply

      August 9, 2012 at 6:50 pm

      why is it unscientific man.whaddaya wana hear,how the friggin quarks behaved? Fuck that shit man,lets just get more energy out than in case closed.

      • Al Potenza Reply

        August 9, 2012 at 6:55 pm

        Typical believer nonsense and drivel. When you ignite a match, you get much more energy out than in. You think that’s LENR too, do you?

        • buffalo Reply

          August 9, 2012 at 7:29 pm

          no buddy.u dont get more energy out of a match than u put in to pay 4 it or steal it or collect it

          • Al Potenza

            August 9, 2012 at 7:47 pm

            Wow! What an impressive and scholarly response!

      • dsm Reply

        August 9, 2012 at 10:19 pm

        Take your foul mouth somewhere else – please !

    • General Zaroff Reply

      August 9, 2012 at 7:49 pm

      Well Jami, according to Alain above, you must be a very dishonest person. Every honest person has already accepted the truth of the matter.

      And in Celani’s defense, he is working in a field where scientific writing and experimental accuracy have never played a leading role. If he were to suddenly change his style and describe his experiment in the manner normally used by scientists, he would confuse his fellow researchers and the LENR support crew wouldn’t know what to make of it.

      • daniel maris Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 1:32 am

        Dearie me, General – you seem to have shrunk your world from an expanse of Daliesque surrealism to the equivalent of a neat little chocolate box scene.

        Has the heart grown weary?

        I realise the news has not been good for you these last few days. And the self-serving positioning of your putative allies can’t be good for morale either.

    • Tiki Reply

      August 9, 2012 at 8:53 pm

      It isn’t like you read that out of his lab notebook. It was just a paper. It wasn’t a science journal and it wasn’t a release of his findings or data either. It was just him speaking about what he found in his experiments in a broad sense and in an un-professional and direct way. The company I work for does the very same thing when it releases information here in the medical research field via a “Press Release”.

      Your little fun time and irrational attack is no better than the very same politics that are being played out currently in the Presidential campaign. You want to make you opponent look stupid by taking something out of its proper context. Well… I don’t find you amusing or your little fun and games approach…

  8. Ivan Mohorovicic Reply

    August 9, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    • Al Potenza Reply

      August 9, 2012 at 7:09 pm

      Thanks for that. Normally, nobody would look at Defkalion’s forum because it’s closed. The old posts, the ones they didn’t delete anyway, are interesting though.

      Seems that they are going to reopen the forum. That should lead to some interesting discussions.

      I’d start by asking them who has seen all those working 10kW desktop reactors they said they had a year ago and who can we talk to about how well they work. Also who their seven famous testing organizations are and what they determined. Think they will respond?

      • daniel maris Reply

        August 9, 2012 at 9:26 pm

        I agree DGT have lost all credibility – they need to do a lot more (at least as good as Celani) to recover it.

        • dsm Reply

          August 9, 2012 at 10:23 pm

          So Daniel what you are implying is that Rossi’s is ahead of DGT because he kept making grander and grander unproven claims ?
          .
          DGT loses credibility because they shut-up & got on with the job !.
          .
          What great logic :) – think about it.
          .
          DSM

          • daniel maris

            August 9, 2012 at 11:41 pm

            Well OK, I’ve had a look at this:

            https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4Et4D1eAgNadzhBcWxmZ2FObDg/edit?pli=1

            (Thanks to Barty over on Ecatworld)

            They have recovered some credibility with this. It’s pretty detailed stuff and they are claiming they will be in production with a 45Kw heat unit within a year.

            We shall see!

            I am just p’d off with the way they abandoned their supporters (I was only a v. occasional visitor to their website) and misled over testing.

          • Ransompw

            August 10, 2012 at 12:07 am

            So you think Rossi has nothing? He’s the only one not participating.

            Or is he in the lead and been spreading as much misdirection as possible to stay there. Remember defkalion has given him props from the beginning. I think it is interesting.

          • dennis

            August 10, 2012 at 3:38 am

            It was an NI event, I would assume only those working with NI would be invited.

    • Bettingman Reply

      August 9, 2012 at 10:08 pm

      What dgt presents is impressive, however now it has to be confirmed. They still refuse to name the participating third party’s. However, they do give a lot of details.

      • Al Potenza Reply

        August 9, 2012 at 10:38 pm

        It would be a lot more impressive if the graphs and images weren’t blurry and unreadable and if the talks were easier to understand, less theoretical, and presented energy production results in a convincing and standard way.

        There is much to look at and I have not seen all of it yet but what I have seen still leaves the issue of what Defkalion has done and whether or not they are a scam, an entirely open question.

        • Bettingman Reply

          August 9, 2012 at 10:58 pm

          Agreed Al, at this moment the scam remains a possibility. I hope a trusted third party (NI?) comes forth and declares that they can vouch for the measurements (because they checked them or replicated them).

          • Al Potenza

            August 9, 2012 at 11:34 pm

            As things stand now, it’d be a big step forward if there was an understandable explanation of what was measured and what the result is. I can’t even get that from the videos and the paper. If someone else can, please post it (and how you got the result) in conventional energy and time units please.

            Remember what NI’s chief said. They measure. They don’t judge. So I wouldn’t expect NI to endorse (or repudiate) whatever conclusions their customers come to. That’s not what they do. It would reduce their sales which is the opposite of what they want. Sales is what they care about. Not LENR.

          • Ransompw

            August 9, 2012 at 11:59 pm

            Al:

            All companies care about sales, but a whole unexplored area of physics? That means more than just sales, it means whole new markets. They really care about those.

  9. Supervisor Reply

    August 9, 2012 at 10:01 pm

    At page 33 of Technical Presentation, there is visible that Hyperion reactor is PRODUCING: Nickel, Cobalt, Zinc etc

    • buffalo Reply

      August 9, 2012 at 11:14 pm

      producing? As in transmutations?

    • CuriousChris Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 3:58 am

      Take a close look at the data on that page. What do you see that’s wrong with it?

  10. daniel maris Reply

    August 9, 2012 at 11:42 pm

    This may have been posted by others, but this gives the essential and important info on DGT…

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4Et4D1eAgNadzhBcWxmZ2FObDg/edit?pli=1

    What do spectics think? Lying, deluded or incompetent?

    • dsm Reply

      August 9, 2012 at 11:46 pm

      Thus far I am impressed. Need a lot more time to delve deeper.
      .
      DSM

      • Ransompw Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 12:09 am

        DSM:

        Assuming a 3rd party will confirm DGT, then the next unanswered question is what about Rossi?

        • dsm Reply

          August 10, 2012 at 12:23 am

          Rossi has told too many lies for me to know what he is up to.
          .
          Defkalion did the right thing by shutting up and getting on with their research.
          .
          But, one very interesting comment that isn’t as stupid as it seems, is that the US via certain people (we know their names), has been guiding a number of researchers and organizations towards possible success.
          .
          People I know who are in the know have been implying this for months but none would ever let on any more than that. I have though, wondered if Rossi was left out because he was so difficult to deal with.
          .
          Two different people in the know have told me they believe Rossi did make a breakthrough at the beginning but that he would *not* be the one to achieve final success.
          .
          DSM
          (perhaps I’ll believe Rossi has something if Steven Krivit ever praises him LOL :) )

          • Bettingman

            August 10, 2012 at 8:06 am

            DSM,
            This sound plausible.

        • daniel maris Reply

          August 10, 2012 at 12:37 am

          Increased credibility for DGT reflects well on Rossi I think – well if you agree with me that the Rossi system was their starting point.

          • dsm

            August 10, 2012 at 12:55 am

            The Rossi system ? – what do you mean by that ? – perhaps you mean Piantelli’s invention was both their starting points :)
            .
            DSM

          • daniel maris

            August 10, 2012 at 8:20 am

            Yes I accept Rossi got his basic approach from Piantelli.

          • Dsm

            August 10, 2012 at 11:35 am

            Daniel – thanks for that honesty.
            .
            Let us both hope that someone delivers real kw lenr soon. Celani has shown that the effect can be reproduced consistently.
            .
            Peter Gluck has also reminded us what a complex sequence lenr effect is.
            .
            DSM

      • Robert Munson Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 12:59 am

        Dsm
        Might return to optimism? finally look at some data which u and I have craved for so long some sliver of proof it’s been a long time.

  11. dsm Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 12:34 am

    Re Defkalion, I am sure everyone saw this at the bottom of their info …
    .
    Defkalion main offices in Vancouver, Canada will be operational in September, 2012.
    For additional information please email: info@defkalion-energy.com
    http://www.defkalion-energy.com
    .
    Cheers
    .
    DSM

    • daniel maris Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 12:38 am

      Yes, that had been heralded a couple of weeks ago I think…

      Really DGT just need to give us that independent verification they promised. UNless I;ve missed something, that’s not there yet is it?

      • dsm Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 12:54 am

        That doc was the 1st time I saw them officially acknowledge it.
        .
        And yes we certainly need external validation.
        .
        DSM

        • daniel maris Reply

          August 10, 2012 at 1:34 am

          Yes, I think it was the first acknowledgement.

          • Pachu

            August 10, 2012 at 1:55 am

            i have read somewhere that test data is for ICCF-17 presentation, lets hope its decent data.

  12. daniel maris Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 2:02 am

    Pachu –

    Data is data – what we need is validation by independent organisations or individuals with credibility. That’s why NI’s involvement with Celani lent considerable credibility to his claims.

    That said, I am looking for to more data!

    • Al Potenza Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 2:30 am

      Maybe there are data buried somewhere in those videos and PDF files but I sure can’t extract them. If you think you can, please tell me how much excess power they got and for how long and how you know. If that’s missing, it ain’t very good data!

      • Veblin Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 2:37 am

        http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1288
        A presentation of DGT’s technologies and progress, supported also by a scientific paper, are scheduled to be presented by DGT’s Hyperion product manager Menelaos Koulouris during the ICCF-17 in Korea.

        • Quax Reply

          August 10, 2012 at 5:53 am

          Will be interesting to see the quality of the paper and if it’ll involve independent scientists.

          Couldn’t understand a word of the presentation but the slide deck is slick.

          • Al Potenza

            August 10, 2012 at 7:19 am

            I wonder if we’re looking at the same thing. The PDF file I saw contained a lot of blurry images. I couldn’t read most of the labels on the result graphs they provided much less figure out how they got the data.

          • daniel maris

            August 10, 2012 at 8:21 am

            Al – Look at what I posted – tehre is lots of detailed info there.

  13. Mahron - A4 B2 Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 3:50 am

    Looks like Defkalion is back in business with a cop of 22. I know someone who is soon going to get pissed off by COP>6 questions.

  14. GreenWin Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 4:09 am

    COP of 22? Ceramic catalyst foam? Transmutations confirmed by ICPMS isotopic analysis?? The HITS just keep on coming ;(

    But cheer up deniers!

    IGZ-2013, Resistance is Futile.

  15. spacegoat Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 4:13 am

    DvH asked:

    “and what is the role of figures like AR in this ? do they provide progress or damage??”

    DSM listed the characteristics of low/no progress:

    “paranoia, eccentricity, greed, resentment, a pathological need to maintain control”

    Starlite was independently tested by the UK government several times but killed by inventor paranoia. The behaviour of Rossi is similar. The risk was that a Rossi failure would kill the LENR field completely.

    Thankfully we have alternatives, so that even if the Rossi farce continues, others will make progress. In my opinion, Celani is a model of how to balance commercial interest and scientific discovery.

    I always rated DGT professionally and scientifically. The move to Vancouver might have been a stalling tactic, but with the new information just received I raise back up my confidence they will deliver commercial LENR in less than 12 months to 75%.

    • GreenWin Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 4:57 am

      Goat, you have been fairly minded in the pool of deniers – exhibiting the tenets of a real skeptic. It is by now rather easy to see the group-think happening in LENR and the collaboration amongst all. Here is what the CEO of DGT said to NyTeknik a year ago:

      “Let’s say I have the formula of Rossi, but I’m not saying it officially. My scientists found a way to make it. They need three months, but I’m not going to play game behind Rossi. I’m not a cheater. We started together and if he has to be paid, he will.”

      “I know what he’s got in the reactor, I know everything. It was a spectroscopy (Greek: ‘fasmatoscopy’) made by the university of Siena. It was an equipment made by the University of Siena. It understands everything that’s inside the reactor. So we know the components.”

      1) Xanthoulis qualifies as world’s dumbest exec
      2) All are in bed together.
      3) LENR is a Make a Wish Fndn project

      At any rate, you are not on the denier list, but may be asked for color commentary when AlPretenza tries to out-swim the IGZ sharks.

      • dsm2 Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 6:22 am

        Who did the spectroscopy ? – I didn’t quite catch that ? LOL :)
        .
        Piantelli also claimed he knew what was going on in Rossi’s reactor :)
        .
        NASA offered to tell Rossi what went on in his reactor (for a tiny $50k fee) LOL :)
        .
        Krivit had some thoughts on what went on in Rossi’s reactor too :)
        .
        Interestingly Dick Smith also has a strong opinion as to what goes on in Rossi’s reactor :)
        .
        DSM

      • spacegoat Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 6:38 am

        GreenWin
        if you look on this site you will see that I have always maintained near certainty about LENR reality and high confidence in DGT (mostly 75%).

        Anyway, I will leave my fate to the guillotine committees in the post LENR era.:-)
        I hope you will not be invited onto the committee. :-)

        More interesting is DGT’s CEO comments at the NI Week, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iKCLHxmISs
        that they 1.They are setting up shop in the Asia-Pacific region in a place beginning with M? Can’t make it out.
        and 2. They are in contact with 50 of the world’s top 100 companies investigating the impact of Hyperion’s on their processes.

        Could it be that as DSM hinted, that DGT have been receiving a helping hand from the US to the wining post? DGT are offering “government controlled, continuously monitored devices” whereas AR is offering a more free device?

        • spacegoat Reply

          August 10, 2012 at 6:44 am

          BTW I am a skeptic, a survival feature in almost all human beings.

          • spacegoat

            August 10, 2012 at 1:34 pm

            Does monitoring energy consumption in real time for tax purposes break a dozen Constitutional statutes?
            Are there any statutes remaining that are unbroken since the “War on Terror”?

        • spacegoat Reply

          August 10, 2012 at 6:57 am

          Greenwin
          Suggest you obtain a pardon for General Zaroff. His expertise in excruciating and crowd pleasing execution will be invaluable.

          • GreenWin

            August 10, 2012 at 8:53 am

            Naw… Rossi’s got a Navy guy on his Board – they all work together. Else Xanthoulis gets a featured spot on “Island of Generale Zarcofagus” for idiotic self incrimination.

            BTW, Generale HAS a pardon as it was his depraved thinking that inspired the show. I wonder what Jeff Immelt (GE) would think of the Xanthoulis statement to NyTeknik??

            Guv’mnt monitored Hyperions??? Gee, they’d have to break a dozen Constitutional statutes. It’s a friggin water heater!

            IGZ-2013 Resistance is Futile.

    • Quax Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 6:17 am

      Never heard of Starlite before. Just read up on it. Thank you for bringing it to my attention!

      It’s a shame that it was not productized.

      • spacegoat Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 6:49 am

        Do you think the UK military, who put it under an electron microscope, would have refused the opportunity to take a crafty micro sample?

        Invented by a hairdresser!

  16. Quax Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 6:00 am

    Heartwarming to see a LENR device in the wild hot enough to prepare a decent cup of coffee. If it’s over unity is a different story. Wished the videographer would have interviewed the NI dude some more.

    Celani doesn’t strike me as a fraud artist but somebody who genuinely believes in the reality of the phenomenon that he is presenting.

    Does Celani know about the Dick Smith price? Maybe somebody should point this out to him. He seems to be far less paranoid and secretive than Rossi and may agree to a test given the financial incentive.

    • Frank Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 7:08 am

      Does Celani know about the Dick Smith price?

      Right, it’s surprising that none (Rossi, DFK, Celani) is rushing for the Dick Smith price, rather takes the risk that another one gets the cash and the glory…

      • dsm Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 8:12 am

        Has to be at least 1 KW and validated ! – that is why there have been no claimants.
        .
        http://dicksmithaustralia.com/
        .

        Cheers DSM
        (actually Prof Eckstrom at Lund Uni really is the one to convince. He is one of Dick’s key advisors on this)

      • daniel maris Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 8:24 am

        I am sure he knows enough to completely ignore his absurd offer.

        BTW – where is he? Somewhere in the Med, popping into the internet cafe every now and then? His posts seem a bit sporadic these days which is odd given all that is going on.

        • Frank Reply

          August 10, 2012 at 9:31 am

          … ignore his absurd offer

          I would call it a fair offer … and challenge.
          And in particular if Rossi and/or DFK have what they claim, then it would be easy for one of them to cash in 1Mio (and get the glory).
          And it seems that they could need some financial reserves for their endeavors: Rossi is giving away distributer licenses ‘incredible cheap’ (http://shutdownrossi.com/?page_id=759), DFK is complaining about the lack of support from greece and moving …

          • dsm

            August 10, 2012 at 9:51 am

            I am looking forward to flying to Vancouver to participate in the acceptance ceremony. (at my own expense).

            .

            Cheers DSM

          • SH

            August 10, 2012 at 10:19 am

            I guess you don’t remember but DGT did in fact accept Dick Smiths challenge. And then Dick backpedaled out of his own “challenge” faster than the speed of light…

          • Dsm

            August 10, 2012 at 11:27 am

            SH that is simply bullshit!
            Dick always asked that all communictions be kept 100% open & that was the reason it ended. Dick never changed his position.
            .
            Lie if you want but that is what happened.
            .
            D

          • SH

            August 10, 2012 at 1:15 pm

            As usual you are full of crap, Doug!

            I have been doing business for over 20 years, an NDA is common practice!
            This was a pathetic excuse from your bff, dick, to backpedal out of his stupidity. PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!

            Now i suggest you remove your head out of dicks ass as quickly as possible, because it makes you look extremely pathetic.

            SH

          • Thicket

            August 10, 2012 at 1:31 pm

            SH

            You sure do like lying through your teeth, don’t you?

            Defkalion rejected Smith’s offer. They backpedalled frantically. The best they could do was was offer a ludicrous shackles and chains counteroffer with so many secrecy conditions and ridiculous financial requirements that they knew it could never be accepted.

            I don’t know whether you’re butt-stupid and actually believe your drivel, or whether you’re a knowing shill of Defkalion.

          • daniel maris

            August 10, 2012 at 6:38 pm

            Thickett,

            How on earth are you able to call all these researchers, reporting v. similar results, scammers? What inside information do you have? Do you have an inside informer? If so, have you passed on the information you have received to the appropriate authorities?

            OR – are you making it all up as you go along?

          • Methusela

            August 10, 2012 at 8:00 pm

            Thicket is, of course, completely wrong :)

            I remember the NDA saga, when Dick finally admitted that he hadn’t even seen one.

            Might have been OK but he’ll never know :)

          • dsm

            August 11, 2012 at 12:09 am

            SH
            .
            Sorry you need to start personal attacking but I was involved with the negotiations between DS & DGT so believe I have a good knowledge of the exchange by exchange interaction.
            .
            You weren’t involved (if you were please clarify) so you can only be basing your comments on what you make up.
            .
            I apologize for using the word lie, but it sure looked like it to me.
            .
            DSM

  17. dsm2 Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 6:49 am

    Here is a question for the electrical engineers among us. One item that cropped up in the DGT presentation was in regard to Sulfur ‘transmutation ?’ when electrical transformers explode (self destruct).
    .
    I have tried to research this but drawn a blank. Because I didn’t get to hear the speaking (not many could it seems) I don’t know in what context this item was discussed.
    .
    My interest is in relation to the constant reports through history, in regard to eyewitness accounts of ball-lightning & nearly all reports talk of a ‘sulfur smell’.
    .
    I did find one reference to oxygen => sulfur in such events but the source was too unreliable to make anything of it.
    .
    Any thoughts pointers welcomed.
    .
    Thanks – DSM

    • Frank Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 12:39 pm

      Couldn’t acoustically understand what exactly they were saying, but if they mention ‘sulfur transmution’ in connection with flashing arc, then they probably are referring to sulfur hexafluoride (SF6) gas insulated switchgears.
      However, I’m not aware of ‘transmuting’- reports in SF6 insulated circuit breakers.

      • dsm Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 12:49 pm

        Yes they did refer to SF6 & I wasn’t able to figure that out – thanks

        DSM

    • CuriousChris Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 3:50 am

      It is also mentioned in their presentation pdf

      Personally I don’t believe it. I think they are relying on hearsay. and if a transformer explodes you have no idea the exact conditions prior to explosion. therefore any result of testing afterwards is meaningless.

      I am going to discuss transmutations below as well

  18. Harry Perini Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 10:32 am

    Andrea Rossi has made great progress in the last week:

    http://ecatreport.com/e-cat/third-party-validation-for-the-hot-cat

    “To Whom it may interest:

    After the validation fo the Hot Cat made on July 16th we made today another Third Party Validation, with the Certificator: the results have been the same of the test made on July 16th. The power of the Hot Cat is 10kW. The maximum temperature we reached has been 1200 C. Of this validation will be made an independent report which will be published soon. This test has been performed in the Product Validation Process that we have asked after the Safety Certification. This test has been directed by an independent Nuclear Engineer who is leading the certification process of the industrial plants. We are extremely enthusiast of the work of today, because is the second time we get a third party validation in a month, getting the same results.”

    This is, indeed, exciting news to those who have been following the development of the E-Cat. The nuclear engineer who did the certification test on the 7th is also the one working on certification of the industrial plant, one of which is already in operation. The industrial plants are in production at this time, with 13 more on order. Rossi does not name the nuclear engineer who is overseeing the certification of the industrial-Cat and the Hot Cat, which is probably to the advantage of the certifier who would be undoubtedly inundated with attention and questions.

    Rossi has said all along that once the industrial-Cat is certified, it will pave the way for the domestic-Cat to pass certification, as the processes will be proven and the safety and operation will be an established fact. The possibility that, within just a few years, we could have Hot Cats powering our power plants boggles the imagination. Let’s hope that these successes continue. Hopefully, Rossi shared this information with Martin Fleischmann before he passed away a few days ago. Knowledge that his earlier work has been vindicated would certainly be a slave to his soul.

    • Dsm Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 11:41 am

      Certification or validation ?

      .
      I am in serious doubt you grasp the difference.
      .
      Please try to convince us.
      .
      DSM

      • Jack Sparrow Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 12:03 pm

        I am in serious doubt that you ever will get any reply from “Harry”.

        http://www.ecatreport.com is sharing server with ecat.com

        My guess is that “Harry” is *very* related to Rossi…

        • dsm Reply

          August 10, 2012 at 12:52 pm

          LOL

          I was going to ask if he was Rossi’s cousin (or a doppleganger) :)

          .

          Harry *is* a one-way propaganda mouthpiece. That has been obvious for a long time :)

          .
          Cheers
          .
          DSM

      • daniel maris Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 12:51 pm

        I was going to mention that. As far as I recall, Rossi said the industrial 1Mw plant didn’t need certification because it was handled by trained staff. His claim is it is already on sale and available for delivery.

        AS DSM says, validation is a different matter.

        • CuriousChris Reply

          August 11, 2012 at 3:52 am

          Rubbish. Trained staff doesn’t mean no certification is required. that can only be BS of the highest order.

    • DvH Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 12:34 pm

      the 1200C thing is not so much interesting – its propaganda to stay in the news – vapourware, in the true meaning of the word – just another ‘rossi says’.
      the much more interesting thing is the blue container. that is the only thing (somewhat) specified, on the market, visible in pictures and videos. there even is an operation manual!
      everything happening on that should bring some results much earlier than the domestic or the hot ecat.
      and it makes sense for AR to push this (container) forward – it can bring money. the other two topics might be more exciting but are years from realization.
      so – AR is actually producing new containers ? that should give some results in a few weeks – not months. he has orders for 13 devices? that should reveal some of the customers before end of this year. certification of the container? that is a not too sophisticated device with not too extreme operational parameters – could be finished in a few months – assuming the gaskets dont mess it up.
      so, on the container front AR is just a few weeks away from ‘letting the pants down’ and show what he has.
      and there will not be much…

      • Frank Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 12:58 pm

        AR is actually producing new containers ? that should give some results in a few weeks – not months.

        Actually Rossi claimed already 10 months ago that he has sold more containers.
        Frank Ackland was very quick with publishing that story, but – as usual – doesn’t follow up the story/claims …
        http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/10/rossi-second-1-mw-e-cat-plant-sold-projects-exponential-growth-of-sales/

        • DvH Reply

          August 10, 2012 at 1:24 pm

          dont be so picky – that was a translation glitch: the containers were sold and shipped to secret customers – but they were empty. purpose: garages for the leonardo diesel-generators…

  19. Harry Perini Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    Warm Regards a tutti

    • dsm Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 12:53 pm

      Warm Regards back LOL :)

      D

  20. Thicket Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    Rossi’s 1200 deg.C is a part of a classic fraudster’s gambit. John Keely was a recognized master of the ploy.

    It works like this.

    * Claim some technological breakthrough.
    * Show public demonstrations in a tightly orchestrated and controlled way.
    * Get credulous, gullible and naive investors.
    * Distract investors from your inability to meet promises of commercial success by making continuous ‘improvements’ to your breakthrough. Use this as an excuse for delays.

    Keely used this approach for decades to string along investors.

    • Mahron - A4 B2 Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 2:23 pm

      Same could be said for defkalion(more less). Now they are parading alongside NI. If it is a scam NI will look foolish to say the least.

      Anyway this story is soon coming to an end and that’s a good thing. Getting tired of this shit.

      • Frank Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 2:58 pm

        If it is a scam NI will look foolish to say the least

        Not necessarily. Ni can still refer to this – sceptical – statement:
        This demonstrates either an unknown physical event or a need for better measurement and control tools. In both cases, NI can provide the tools to accelerate innovation and scientific discovery

        • daniel maris Reply

          August 10, 2012 at 6:43 pm

          Most scientists think the whole field of cold fusion is career death poison. The idea that NI have sleep-walked into this without being v. sure of what the reality is seems to be to stretch credibility to breaking point. It’s not impossible, but it is much more likely that they have measured these devices independently and carried out all sorts of tests to ensure they haven’t got secret sources of energy.

    • daniel maris Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 6:35 pm

      But are you saying Celani, DGT and Brillouin are all scammers?

      If not Celani, who drew on Piantelli, then why Rossi, who drew on Piantelli (via Focardi)?

      So are you calling Celani a scammer?

  21. spacegoat Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 2:28 pm

    The technical presentation by DGT at NI Week is in three parts. The last part is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I2EO8YHJVQ

    Having presented detailed scientific information on DGT’s LENR process and having claimed prototype machines with a COP of 22, the audience of about 30 could not muster a single question for DGT’s technical director. Celani sat on the front row looking a bit grim.

    Any thoughts on why a bunch of scientists flown to NI Week would have no comment on a potential world shattering new energy source that looks increasingly likely? Perhaps they were all patho sceptics with the exception of Celani, an envy skeptic? :-)

    Are scientists in general a bunch of inhuman grumps unable to comprehend social issues?

    • buffalo Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 3:36 pm

      no.scientists in general r greedy,paranoid money grabbers,like u n me buddy.wen they catch on2 a winning formula they run nd scatter like rats.the ones with giant egos announce a breakthrouhg but strait after that they r gona talk in parables

  22. Kim Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    Big Oil and Nuclear are all starting to
    wonder.

    Early stages of denial.

    From what I see, and if I was the CEO…

    I would be dramatically allocating resources.

    NOW!

    Respect
    Kim

  23. Thicket Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    Kim

    CEOs aren’t paying the slightest bit of attention. I’m still tapped in to major energy companies. With respect to cold fusion/LENR, there is a deafening silence.

    I remember similar sentiments with Steorn, Blacklight Power and EEStor. Sometimes the comments were more dramatic. e.g. “CEOs must be quaking in their boots with this wonderful new technology undermining their business”.

    CEOs of big corporations deal with reality, not wishful thinking.

    Now, if cold fusion/LENR ever showed something convincing, then they would take notice. It might happen, but it hasn’t happened yet.

    • Ransompw Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 3:55 pm

      Thicket:

      Not surprising, obsolute technologies and those connected with them are almost always the last to appreciate their end. You might think the top executives of these companies are smart enough to see it coming but for whatever reason they rarely are.

      • Thicket Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 8:52 pm

        Ransom

        Stick with stuff you know. Your generalization is BS.

        Yes, there are companies/businesses who failed to see a paradigm shift and disappeared. Examples are buggy makers before the automobile, ice makers before modern refrigerators and Swiss watchmakers before crystal watches.

        There are also many companies that adapt and survive.

        Let me share a personal experience. I worked in the Head Office of a major oil company. I worked as a development engineer in coal gasification. Hundreds of millions had been thrown at the technology over 20 years. At the time, the company had no commercial plants.

        I asked a company senior executive why they would continue to dump money into a loser. The response went something like this.

        “We aren’t an oil company. We’re an energy company. People will not always need oil, but they will always need energy. To stay in business, we spend money on every major energy sector. Some are winners, some are losers, but we’re in every game.”

        Whenever a promising new energy technology emerges, this company invests. While I no longer work for them, I know of many emerging energy technologies they have invested in. Usually, they are the money that finance technology developers.

        While many here will not like it and disagree, cold fusion at this point is not promising. Maybe it will be some day. This company will then become interested and invest.

        • Ransompw Reply

          August 11, 2012 at 4:53 am

          Thicket:

          The idiots who run the oil and coal companies haven’t a clue in world what is going on. You are a perfect example, you are certain LENR is not worth a look at this time, and by the time you wake up and appreciate how stupid you are, companies will be putting your incompetent friends out of business.

          You are a case study on this stupidity. You make me laugh.

          • CuriousChris

            August 11, 2012 at 12:18 pm

            Pot calling the kettle black?

          • Thicket

            August 11, 2012 at 1:04 pm

            Ransom

            Take a pill :) It’s incredibly easy to pull your chain.

            As for energy company executives being idiots. The list of the top twenty companies in the world includes ten oil and gas companies. They are Exxon/Mobil, Royal Dutch Shell, BP, Sinopec, Chevron, Conoco/Phillips, PetroChina, Total S.A., Saudi Aramco and GazProm.

            That’s pretty impressive for idiots who haven’t a clue about what is going on.

            Alternatively, you’re the idiot who blabbers inanities.

            I vote for choice two :)

    • Mahron - A4 B2 Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 4:02 pm

      I don’t think CEOs give a fuck. They all have their golden parachutes. Investors maybe, if they have not amortised the investment.

      And quite frankly I think everyone should be a bit scared if this is real. There is no where of knowing how far the tech can be taken in terms of energy output. The changes to society could be massive.

      • buffalo Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 4:10 pm

        yeah.think about it.if a lil cartridge of nickel foam can power ur vehicle for 3 months without a refill,omg,those guys r gona push the proverbial button

        • Mahron - A4 B2 Reply

          August 10, 2012 at 4:39 pm

          Exactly.

    • daniel maris Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 6:17 pm

      So you are calling Celani, DGT and Brillouin all scams, Thicket? And NI are in on it as well? Or NI have been fooled by one or more of them?

      • Thicket Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 8:40 pm

        Daniel

        I’ll tell you if I have something to say. I don’t need you to fabricate my opinions out of thin air.

        Defkalion and Rossi are frauds. I have no opinion on Celani and Brillouin because I don’t follow them. NI sells products to whoever will buy them. The question whether they are ‘in on it’ or ‘have been fooled’ is meaningless.

  24. buffalo Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    and if defkalion reaaallly,genuinely did find big traces of zinc,cobalt in their ecat ash when there wasnt zinc n cobalt b4 they switchd it on then the shit truly is about 2 hit the fan coz that my frend is pure evidence of a nuke reaction

    • CuriousChris Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 12:20 pm

      They found a lot of stuff that wasn’t there before. Almost like they swept up whatever was on the floor an threw it in the analyser.

  25. Michael Zorg Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    I must say I am quite impressed by the quality at the NI week presentations.

    Celani’s quite interesting, more intellegible and detailed than his Cern review in April, although not really surprising, being an elaboration of the latter concerning his own work. His solid and repeatable results of excess heat, and the details on sample preparation, calibration and measurement are exemplary. On the other hand, I remain puzzled as to the real significance of the increase in conductivity seen in his samples as they output more heat. Is it really anomalous, or might it not be some correlated artefact, such as an annealing of the composite? In any case it seems to correlate well with heat production, which might simply make it a usefull parameter to measure to gauge the phenomenon.

    I was also favorably surprised by DGT’s presentation. It has removed much of the mystery on what it is that they are doing and what their device might be. Furthermore, it is congruent with much of what is presently known about LENR, which some skeptics don’t even bother to get interested in. DSM’s understanding of the situation concerning Rossi’s excentricity and difficult to deal with character vs DGT seems plausible. I am still puzzled by why Rossi, if he had anything legitimate at all in the first place, felt the need to put on such a lousy show with his repeated “non-demonstration” circus as well as that of his infamous JONP blogs. Possibly, he is some kind of a scientifically illiterate Edisonian sort of colourfull character. The Joker?

    In the light of this recent tangible progress at NI week, I can better appreciate the emotional tone in Dr James Truchard’s introduction. After all, he is the founder and CEO of NI. Given that under his authority NI has been present since its beginnings in the LENR field, perhaps in the face of internal and external skepticism, and seeing the field finally coming of age, I believe he had grounds to be proud of its present, though by no means final, advancement, to which he contributed. Indeed, Hagelstein’s 182th theoretical paper, as well as his latests at arxiv are worthy efforts that do deserve to be studied.

    To sum it up, I have revised my outlook of imminent practical applications to positive, including from DGT.

    • daniel maris Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 6:31 pm

      Yes, Rossi remains the puzzle. He doesn’t have a good record of producing working devices, although he has some sort of record in the world of science and tech.

      If he has something then he has done brilliantly well in arousing enough interest to secure investment without producing serious scientific and commercial involvement across the board which would create rivals.

      If these other devices are working, then there is no reason why Rossi, working with Focardi who was in touch with Piantelli, shouldn’t have had one as well.

      It is entirely possible that he has been telling the truth in essence with some self-interested embellishment.

      I can’t wait to find out!

      • Al Potenza Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 6:47 pm

        Rossi’s only record before the ecat involves Petroldragon, resulting in prosecutions for environmental pollution and fraud, and the DOD thermoelectric project which was a complete failure and was probably intiated by fraud. Those are not much to write about!

        There is no reasonable probability that Rossi is telling the truth.

        • daniel maris Reply

          August 10, 2012 at 11:42 pm

          Nonsense – if the other projects appear to be producing working LENR devices, the prospects for Rossi having done so increase exponentially, especially given the Piantelli connection.

  26. Dale G. Basgall Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    As posted about many times is the “nuke” in e-cat, radiation in any form is a change infrequency of something else. Things oscillate at differential levels that can affect everything around us. There is an exchange of something that seems to have the construct of our origin. Transmutation, and biology, change.

    What the real scare issue when the P&F experiments were done and in the news at that time for the general public in the midwest was that; if the fusion actually worked then it may cause a chain reaction and envelop the entire planet and we would be destroyed. Actually that scare was instilled in us at an earlier age than that, the late 60′s was the scare tactics for the nuke stuff at that time. But the midwest was riddled with oil wells and at the time I was to young to understand the connection of propoganda to real events.

    Nonetheless talking about radiation of any kind will get most of the people no so much in the know kicking you in the teeth so to speak. It has happened to me several time while trying to promote LENR. Even the low levels of magnetic oscillation that cause the x-rays are portraid by laying a lead shield over someone getting a tooth x-ray.

    There is no chance at all that if even low levels of radiation are emitted at this level of developement for LENR that it will be allowed to be experimented with in the general science community.

    In the U.S. you can’t even smoke a cigarete by a building with people in it much less go inside, you can’t own a firearm unless you go to many classes and registration wait periods, and I can go on with emissions hydrocarbons and so on. I wonder if the rest of the world is like that, picking up their trash?

    So let’s figure out the possibility percentages of the e-cat ever being in a household when lead shielding is needed, not in the U.S.

    • spacegoat Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 2:44 am

      “There is no chance at all that if even low levels of radiation are emitted at this level of developement for LENR that it will be allowed to be experimented with in the general science community. ”

      If “governments” try restricting LENR on bogus safety grounds, do not worry, LENR will appropriated anyway. Rossi is supposed to have employed an expert to prove the core of his LENR device is no more dangerous than a microwave oven.

      How will metal powder, hydrogen and plumbing equipment be controlled?

      Lastly, there are still some places in the world where the people are relatively free of mass surveillance, overtaxing, meddling government.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 1:05 pm

      Don G. Basgall – “In the U.S. you can’t even smoke a cigarete by a building with people in it much less go inside, you can’t own a firearm unless you go to many classes and registration wait periods, and I can go on with emissions hydrocarbons and so on.”

      I live in the US and your statement is not true. Where I have lived there is no training requirement in order to buy and own a gun. People are free to smoke in their own homes in the presence of others. I have lived in two states in the past 3 years and both have a “castle law” where you can shoot and kill intruders (intrusion of home or encroachment upon the home’s yard)if you feel threatened.

    • Ivy Matt Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 2:21 pm

      There is no chance at all that if even low levels of radiation are emitted at this level of developement for LENR that it will be allowed to be experimented with in the general science community.

      Eh, what? Scientist have been producing low levels of radiation at laboratories throughout the world, including within the United States, for at least some 80 years.

  27. GreenWin Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 6:14 pm

    @Kim,

    Dr. Andrea Aparo, Senior R&D Adviser to Ansaldo Energia SpA CEO Giuseppe Zampini, attended NI Week and spoke on several cold fusion panels.

    Ansaldo Energia is a $1.8 Billion product and service provider to fossil and nuclear power utilities. It is jointly owned by giant Finmeccanica SpA – Italy’s largest defense contractor and a US energy holding company. Ansaldo Energia sent Andrea De Vita, a nuclear physicist to Rossi’s 1MW demo October 28, 2011.

    In July international giant Siemens AG made an offer to purchase Finemeccanica’s share of Ansaldo Energia for $1.3B. The purchase is opposed by the US holding company. Recently the Italian government issued an order to block any sale of Ansaldo to a non-Italian entity.

    i.e., Kim, anyone who says energy company CEO’s don’t care about cold fusion are liars, ignorant or both.

    IGZ-2013 Resistance is Futile.

  28. Ivan Mohorovicic Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    Reportedly, a photo from Cures of Rossie’s test reactor during a measurement:

    http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/8798/r1234829961.jpg

    Semi-Google translated information by georgehants on e-cw:

    They consist of two coaxial cylinders of steel. The interior space between the two cylinders contains the resistance-heating and the reaction chamber with the active material. The bases are sealed with mastic by the blast of Saratoga. No need for sealing pressure. The all painted black paint to increase the emissivity and able to withstand 1200 ° C This is a phase measurement. At the time of the photo, the average temperature of the outer surface was 801 ° C with a local peak of 873 ° C. Inner surface temperature from 1100 ° C to over 1200 ° C. 2 parallel resistance heating (4 cables that you see). Value of the parallel 6 ohms. Voltage alternating current power supply (50 Hz) of 147 volts. Current consumption 24.25 amps. Power consumption 3.56 kW. Power radiated by the two inner and outer walls considered equal to a total of 13.39 kW gross average ambient temperature of 35 ° C internal wall at white heat unapproachable sub meter for the hot breath of air. Outer wall measured by camera with precision 2% of measured value. Inner wall measured with a laser thermometer from 1.2 meters away from shaky hand eager to keep the skin attached. And conservative values ​​to default (very) heat removal due to convective motion estimated in at least 8% of the outer wall and cosine irradiation down to the inner wall due to high angle of radiation to laser thermometer (pointing almost in alignment with the inner cylinder) Reaction stable with no ideas in her head. Almost boring. The COP rises beyond 1000 ° C when the outside wall. The consumption is that of a fusion reaction that is almost zero. An accurate estimate requires turning the whole thing and then take a long vacation before it to check the consumption.

    To believe this or not… it’s your choice.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 6:43 pm

      Looks like a piece of junk. Do you really think a fusion reactor would look like that? Where are the control systems? The temperature and pressure sensors? The ducts for hydrogen? The method of getting useful energy out of it? This is nonsense. Trash. The only thing funnier than the photo is the bad translation of the text. That’s serious comedy.

      • Kim Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 7:52 pm

        Have you really been paying
        attention to Andrea Rossi’s
        Reports of the last Month.

        Its exactly as I expected!

        Respect
        Kim

        • Al Potenza Reply

          August 10, 2012 at 7:55 pm

          And what was it you expected?

      • Veblin Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 7:56 pm

        Looks like a piece of junk.
        Your opinion.

        Do you really think a fusion reactor would look like that?
        Yes.

        Where are the control systems?
        Two electric heaters.

        The temperature and pressure sensors?
        Pressure sensor not needed.
        Temperature measured by infrared camera and laser thermometer.

        The ducts for hydrogen?
        Hydrogen in reactor as a metal hydride.

        The method of getting useful energy out of it?
        Heat radiated for bare reactor tests. Heat exchanger attached to inner and outer walls of reactor in production.

        This is nonsense. Trash. The only thing funnier than the photo is the bad translation of the text. That’s serious comedy.
        All your opinion again, but you are right that google doesn’t do very well translating Italian to English.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          August 10, 2012 at 8:23 pm

          “Do you really think a fusion reactor would look like that?
          Yes. “

          Here’s a better explanation: like all of Rossi’s ecats before this one, all of the energy exhibited comes only from the electrical heater. Like all his demos before, the energy output measurement isn’t properly specified, calibrated and blanked and therefore isn’t credible.

          All Rossi did was to make a 4 kW electrical heater and yes, in a small volume, such a heater will achieve a high temperature without any nuclear reaction.

          I agree with you that it’s only my opinion. We can’t get any reliable facts to make it more than opinion as long as Rossi doesn’t permit anyone reliable and credible to test it independent of him.

          • Veblin

            August 10, 2012 at 8:43 pm

            We get it. You don’t belive in LENR and everyone testing it is mistaken. Or was it you do believe in LENR but only those getting very small outputs are correct and those like Rossi, Defkalion, Brillioun with large outputs are mistaken?

          • Al Potenza

            August 10, 2012 at 10:24 pm

            “We get it. You don’t belive in LENR and everyone testing it is mistaken. Or was it you do believe in LENR but only those getting very small outputs are correct and those like Rossi, Defkalion, Brillioun with large outputs are mistaken?”

            NO, you do NOT get it. Not at all. Defkalion and Rossi have lied repeatedly and have never had an independent evaluation. They are most likely scams and the current presentations by Defkalion doesn’t change that assessment.

            As to claims for small amounts of power, those are easily mistakes and measurement errors. I’ve not seen one that’s convincing. So far, Celini’s is the closest but I am not convinced it’s not measurement errors plus maybe some metal-hydride chemical reactions.

            Experiments should continue. But the issue of whether LENR is real is an open issue. And Defkalion and Rossi look like scams. Rossi almost certainly is. Defkalion has a small chance of being real but if it is, they are incredibly disingenuous, lie, and develop and test their product stupidly.

            Those who complain because I repeat myself, please take it up with Veblin who hasn’t been following the discussion and tried to put words in my mouth.

          • dsm

            August 11, 2012 at 12:05 am

            Veblin
            I agree with your sentiment on this point. No issues, but you said Brillouin are claiming large amounts of heat ? – my knowledge of them is that they are claiming small output in the test reactor & that they have a large boiler design that *will* put out large heat when built. SRI have agreed to build the large (steam) boiler. Until then they are only saying they have a design that *should* put out large heat.
            .
            Cheers
            .
            DSM

      • daniel maris Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 11:53 pm

        Who’s the expert here? You been trashing all the LENR researchers, now you are a lot quieter about the others than before…why should we believe you on Rossi?

    • Ivan Mohorovicic Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 8:10 pm

      There’s a better translation on vortex:

      http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg68781.html

  29. daniel maris Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    Re CEOs of Big Energy companies, let’s first of all remember that all the CEOs of the various nefarious and incompetently managed banks who went bust were described as commercial geniuses who deserved every cent of their inflated remuneration packages… BEFORE they went bust. So, if Thicket thinks they aren’t reacting to developments here I suggest it is because they are incompetent and purblind. HOwever, equally Thicket may just be wrong.

    • GreenWin Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 7:44 pm

      daniel – here are the facts:

      Dr. Andrea Aparo, Senior R&D Adviser to Ansaldo Energia SpA CEO Giuseppe Zampini, attended NI Week and spoke on several cold fusion panels.

      Ansaldo Energia is a $1.8 Billion product and service provider to fossil and nuclear power utilities. It is jointly owned by giant Finmeccanica SpA – Italy’s largest defense contractor and a US energy holding company. Ansaldo Energia sent Andrea De Vita, a nuclear physicist to Rossi’s 1MW demo October 28, 2011.

      In July international giant Siemens AG made an offer to purchase Finemeccanica’s share of Ansaldo Energia for $1.3B. The purchase is opposed by the US holding company. Recently the Italian government issued an order to block any sale of Ansaldo to a non-Italian entity.

      i.e., anyone (thikhed) who says energy company CEO’s don’t care about cold fusion are liars, ignorant or both.

      IGZ-2013 Resistance is Futile.

      • daniel maris Reply

        August 10, 2012 at 8:56 pm

        Thanks – I’ll bear that in mind. :)

    • Methusela Reply

      August 10, 2012 at 8:07 pm

      Indeed, Thicket is ALWAYS wrong.

  30. Dale G. Basgall Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    Regarding the Celani video above he is using the isotan wire with constant resistance, does he state the red line is the dropping of resistance?

  31. Robert Munson Reply

    August 10, 2012 at 11:37 pm

    Where’s Gary wrong and krivit on this material??
    Getting painted into a corner with some of their outlandish claims of fraud.

    • dsm Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 1:27 am

      Krivit never called Rossi a fraud – he just kept questioning the testing method & interpretation. In fact quite a few people did so.
      .
      Krivit did call the steam producu=ing demo a failure.
      .
      As for Gary, he is confused & it is not clear if he is calling it farce or fraud as even he doesn’t seem to sure.
      .
      DSM

      • daniel maris Reply

        August 11, 2012 at 1:54 am

        DSM,

        Please – that’s enough dissembling. Krivit called it a fraud. He might not have used the word “fraud” but in all other respects he called into question Rossi’s integrity and therefore called it a fraud.

        • dsm Reply

          August 11, 2012 at 3:01 am

          Daniel
          .
          Sorry but that is simply distorting the facts.
          .
          Krivit challenged Rossi’s testing !. Rossi commiting a fraud is a different issue to if Rossi can demo his eCat adequately or not. It is known he har big consistency problems from the start.
          .
          By distorting the story you are twisting people’s roles in it. It is far better if we stick to common facts & avoid the fictions.
          .
          DSM

          • Methusela

            August 11, 2012 at 8:00 am

            I’m sorry DSM, but it isn’t.

            Krivit has a particular style of ‘blackening’ peoples names, and he did it in spades with Rossi.

          • dsm

            August 12, 2012 at 1:35 am

            Over the testing metho & Rossi did more to blacken his own name than anyone else involved.
            .
            PS you never replied to my very simple question of did you ever meet (or even see) Mike Cowlishaw at Winchester ? – not at all a difficult question !

  32. daniel maris Reply

    August 11, 2012 at 12:11 am

    I think I preferred the days of what you might call slasher scepticism…the tone has changed hasn’t it? Now the sceptics keep inserting caveats “almost certainly”, “might well be” and “have yet to be proven”. The volleys of abuse have reduced in frequency. It’s getting a bit boring and this site is losing its raison d’etre.

    I feel this has probably been the worst week ever for the sceptics since we found out, last year, that NASA had submitted an LENR patent (once we knew that it was v. difficult for the sceptics to maintain that LENR was not a real phenomenon).

    Now we have the photo of Rossi’s hot cat to finish off the week…

    Wow – what a week!

    • Mahron - A4 B2 Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 12:14 am

      Indeed ! I might even go back to being B3 if it goes on like this.

    • Al Potenza Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 12:28 am

      That is such a dumb post. You seem not to get any of this. The skeptics would love for LENR to be real. That’s much more fun than the frauds and bad experiments and insufficient data we’ve been suffering with for decades along with the obvious crooks like Rossi and those like Defkalion in whose case it’s hard to tell whether it’s incompetence or crookery.

      That hot cat is an obvious electrical heater. There is nothing to suggest anything in it can react. There isn’t a shred of evidence that it outputs more energy than Rossi shoves in with those electrical wires.

      • daniel maris Reply

        August 11, 2012 at 12:54 am

        Al -

        I am getting the feeling that in this fight to the last man, you are the last man. The rest have run away.

        An obvious electric heater? Well, I’ve no idea, but the problem here is sceptics were rubbishing Celani,DGT and Brillouin as well a few weeks ago…now it seems they are far less aggressive in their attacks.

      • dennis Reply

        August 11, 2012 at 2:58 am

        Are you saying the visible wires are big enough to carry enough current to run a small muffle furnace? Or are you saying that the power supply is hidden?

      • spacegoat Reply

        August 11, 2012 at 3:03 am

        “Defkalion in whose case it’s hard to tell whether it’s incompetence or crookery.”

        If you had any ability to judge behaviour, after watching the DGT CTO and CEO at NI Week, crookery would be out of the question.

        On the subject of incompetence, do you seriously believe that the DGT CTO is unable to discern a real effect when the measured COP is 22? A 5 year old boy could perform the assessment correctly.

        However, at the end of the the CTO presentation the audience of about 30 could not muster a single question. Do you think all these guys were thinking crookery/incompetence like you?

        • Al Potenza Reply

          August 11, 2012 at 3:14 am

          The questions and answers to the technical talk were removed from the copy of the video I saw (the video stopped when the Q&A started). Why was that? There were no questions for the other talk probably because the audience was too bored or too polite. I could think of many questions to ask:

          - Why are all the images in your presentastion and PDF so blurry that it’s impossible to read the figure captions?

          - Why don’t you use credible calorimetry to measure excess heat, for example by flow or envelope calorimetry?

          - Why don’t you get independent testing as a black box without revealing secrets but without your providing the test method or equipment?

          - Who are at least some of the seven organizations which tested your Hyperion recently and where can I read their findings?

          - Where are the results of the now year long tests and investigations by the “Greek authorities” supposedly done to provide a license to sell reactors?

          - What happened to the 10kW desktop reactors that you said you were testing a year ago June? Where can I see one running with proper test equipment attached? Why did you not bring one with you to this meeting? Why are there no videos of proper tests on those devices available on Youtube?

          -Why did you close your forum and delete perfectly polite if incisive posts? Why do you ban forum participants simply for asking sharp but relevant and polite questions? (like the ones above)

          - Why don’t you accept Dick Smith’s challenge without an NDA? What would a simple black box test by a university compromise in the way of trade secrets if nobody opened the reactor?

          - Anyway, won’t all those secrets be revealed after you sell even one commercial model?

          Enough? Or want me to go on because there is much much more.

          • spacegoat

            August 11, 2012 at 3:36 am

            Al,
            I don’t know what you’ve been looking at but here are the youtube video ID’s of DGT at NI Week that I have viewed.
            0iKCLHxmISs
            aNclBoLgYP0
            d_BjWSuX3zE
            4I2EO8YHJVQ
            A4HG9raN_2U
            NxjxFdFEBsw

            Visibility was not an issue.

            The technical presentation is also available at DGT’s site (link above in this thread)

            Answering on the basis of what the CTO said :

            All test data will be published to the scientific community when the licensing is complete. They hope to start production by the end of this year, certainly within 6 months(CTO)

            “What happened to the 10kW desktop reactors”
            They are on version 2 (or 3). The first reactors were designed for data gathering, the latest optimized for production

            “Why did you close your forum and delete perfectly polite if incisive posts?”
            Maybe because they explained there position and the post was viewed as repetitive.

            “Why don’t you accept Dick Smith’s challenge without an NDA?”
            Straightforward business reasons.

            “Anyway, won’t all those secrets be revealed after you sell even one commercial model?”
            Probably, but why give the competition a leg up?

          • dennis

            August 11, 2012 at 4:05 am

            The PDFs I downloaded look clear to me. Maybe your glasses are steamed up?

    • Frank Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 1:02 am

      Daniel,
      I think you will never get it. – Sceptics would highly welcome if anyone proves (independent, credible 3rd party test) to have a device with a higher energy out than energy in.
      But just some claims on obscure blogs, some powerpoint presentation, some hastily written papers are no prove for a revolutionary new technology.
      And outlandish claims like the ones from Rossi (I’m already sick of discussing them), or contradictions to previous statements should even you make cautious.
      As you can see from e-mails, there is a business ongoing with selling licences (which was long time denied), with quite some money involved. – And you should assume that groups and individuals involved in that business have good reasons to spur the story – and try to ridicule every reasonable sceptical position.

      • daniel maris Reply

        August 11, 2012 at 1:18 am

        Frank –

        I don’t think you get it.

        (A) The vast majority of people here are not Rossi supporters. They are LENR supporters.

        (B) Give me some examples of your “reasonable sceptical position”. It’s not reasonable to think National Instruments are incompetent at measuring things.
        But sceptics insinuate that all the time.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          August 11, 2012 at 1:26 am

          No they don’t. NI are fine at measuring things. But NI doesn’t do experiments to prove or disprove LENR. They simply supply the equipment. How it’s used is out of their control. A lot of it is used incompetently so the old adage applies: garbage in, garbage out.

          • daniel maris

            August 11, 2012 at 1:52 am

            Al – No, I don’t accept this idea that NI are just providing a tape measure. I think they are far more involved than that and you’d have to be pretty naive to believe otherwise.

          • John Milstone

            August 11, 2012 at 11:49 am

            Al – No, I don’t accept this idea that NI are just providing a tape measure. I think they are far more involved than that and you’d have to be pretty naive to believe otherwise.

            Thanks for sharing your unsubstantiated opinion.

            Almost every post of yours is full of your unsubstantiated opinions. You seem to be unable to distinguish your unsubstantiated opinions from facts.

            Please point to any statement by someone in a position to actually know that NI has been doing anything more than supplying equipment and software to LENR researchers.

            Based on everything I’ve read, the closest anyone has come to this is a statement that NI provided some people to help set up the demonstration. That is not even remotely the same as “doing the experiments”.

            Of course, you won’t point out any such statement, because you can’t. You’ll simply insult the people who point out your many illogical bits of wishful thinking.

          • John Milstone

            August 11, 2012 at 2:09 pm

            It’s worth pointing out that Rossi allowed other people to “read” the measurements of the thermocouples that he intentionally misplaced in his dog & pony shows.

            Even if NI instruments are perfect in every way, if they are misused (intentionally or unintentionally), the resulting measurements are worthless.

            That’s why replication is so important. And that doesn’t seem to have happened yet.

        • Frank Reply

          August 11, 2012 at 1:36 am

          (a) just scrolled up this thread and found comments from Perini, GreenWin, Kim which seems to be quite supporting for Rossi

          (b) Example for reasonable sceptical position?
          You should know that in physics it’s mandatory that an experiment gets replicated and the results verified by different groups (preferable on different locations). Did this happen for example for the Celani experiment?
          You refer to NI. Did they publish any report / data from the Celani demonstration.

          • daniel maris

            August 11, 2012 at 1:58 am

            Some may be, but I think a lot of people here are reacting against the bottom-dwelling Rubbish-Rossi sceptics.

            As for replication, when was the Big Bang replicated?

          • JNewman

            August 11, 2012 at 2:13 am

            You mean the Big Bang was never replicated?? That means I may have to wait a long time before I ever get my home Big Bang. (Note to General: That didn’t sound so good, did it?)

          • Frank

            August 11, 2012 at 2:27 am

            As for replication, when was the Big Bang replicated?

            The ‘Big Bang’ (theorie) is a theorie, not an experiment!

            I suggest you educate yourself in the basics of ‘scientific method’. Maybe you have a start here:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
            In particular (regarding experiments) I recommend you to have a look into chapter ‘Other components’.
            If you think this ‘scientific method’ is nonsense, then I can only reply that you may think want you want, but please don’t bother me any longer with your ideas.

          • daniel maris

            August 11, 2012 at 2:29 am

            It’s not for those who make an idol of replication to poke fun at those who don’t, JN.

            The cold, plain facts are that science could not function if replication was a necessary condition of science. Fortunately, most sensible scientits don’t think it is.

            Science is about harmonious patterns that make sense. Sometimes there are parts of the pattern – things like the laws of nature – that are not going to be replicable through experiment.

            In terms of LENR and replication I would say it is a bit of a nonsense because we are in a (wonderful) era of discovery in what is v. difficult terrain. Replication is the least of our worries. Yo simply are not going to get exact replication.

            Most important I think is validation by trusted sources. That’s why I personally think the Celani-NI narrative is so important.

          • daniel maris

            August 11, 2012 at 2:31 am

            Precisely Frank – a theory not an experiment but absolutely essential to our understanding of reality. Remove the Big Bang because it can’t be replicated and where is science?

          • Al Potenza

            August 11, 2012 at 2:32 am

            “Science is about harmonious patterns that make sense”
            -
            Ok. The only patterns that makes sense with Rossi are insanity and fraud.

            As for the role of NI, I am not guessing. I am listening to their co-founder: “we measure, we don’t judge”.

          • JNewman

            August 11, 2012 at 2:33 am

            Daniel, you must be right. Replication is overrated and unnecessary. I do have to wonder, though, just how well the computer you used to post your lofty thoughts would work if the microprocessor in it didn’t exactly work all the time. Probably swell, huh?

      • Ransompw Reply

        August 11, 2012 at 4:36 am

        Actually Frank as to the Licenses it is almost no money at all.

        • Frank Reply

          August 11, 2012 at 12:21 pm

          If we see the price for a license in relation to the promised benefits/return of investment, then you are right.
          As we know from some e-mails, the licences are ‘unbelievable appealing’. You would need to sell just a single 1MW container to get back what you have paid for the distributer license of a major economical zone. ‘Unbelievable’, isn’t it?

          • Ransompw

            August 11, 2012 at 12:38 pm

            And I think that is one of the points that makes Rossi’s claims unlikely. His whole business model is nuts, even if his business is a scam and more so if it isn’t.

          • Frank

            August 11, 2012 at 1:19 pm

            I agree.
            And as you said: One of the points …

            If one has some technical background, then you will instantly see many other nonsense (e.g. in the setup of the e-cat tests)
            And if one applies just common sense to Rossi claims, then you find even much more …

    • DvH Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 9:45 am

      the photo is of suspect origin and might show anything. unless AR clearly says ‘yes, this shows my cat’ there is little reason to speculate what is is, how it works and what it means for future space missions.

      how can we be sure that the picture shows rossis’s reactor and no DGT’s ?

  33. daniel maris Reply

    August 11, 2012 at 2:36 am

    Al – If you really believe what corporations put out as PR then you are truly the most naive person on the thread.

    But I respect you for being clear on Rossi and giving those hostages to fortune with no care for the consequences. We shall see.

  34. RonB Reply

    August 11, 2012 at 2:36 am

    This is all very exciting and the theory that DGT came up with is a good as any I’ve heard. The more we hear about this the more I believe we’re going to discover that metallic hydrogen has been formed.
    That could explain many of the odd things that have seen in this investigation phase.

    Rydberg matter??.. that would really be cool

  35. CuriousChris Reply

    August 11, 2012 at 4:08 am

    Ok I am going to bring this up as no-one else has discussed it.

    On DGT’s presentation 2012-08-08_NIWeek_ Defkalion Technical presentation_ J Hadjichristos.pdf page 33 “Transmutation analysis from XRF”

    Maybe its because the person who put the presentation together needed the space but the number of elements in the before reaction list is much less than the after reaction list. They have highlighted the “transmuted’ elements, but what about the sudden appearance of other elements like err lead?

    Either its a badly put together slide or there was a hell of a lot of contamination of the post reaction material.

    Any contamination would render the tests meaningless.

    • Veblin Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 4:44 am

      When elements transmutate you get more elements. You still have the ones you started with in a different quantity plus all the new ones.

      The full list on the right are the elements found using XRF testing on the sample after the reaction.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_fluorescence

      The highlighted elements are ones that were also confirmed using the different ICPMS testing on the sample after the reaction.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductively_coupled_plasma_mass_spectrometry

      • Veblin Reply

        August 11, 2012 at 6:26 am

        There may also be some contamination that is unavoidable.
        Some of the elements of the sample may become part of the reactor.
        Some of the elements of the reactor may become part of the sample.

        • CuriousChris Reply

          August 11, 2012 at 7:26 am

          So what elements are part of the “unavoidable contamination” and what are due to transmutation.

          You cant pick and choose. If there is any contamination the sample must be discarded. I chose lead to comment on in particular. that’s one hell of a transmutation to get lead.

          • Ivy Matt

            August 11, 2012 at 2:40 pm

            Not really. All you have to do is swap the digits of the atomic number of nickel, et voilà!

    • dsm Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 6:51 am

      Chris
      .
      That discrepancy has been raised with DGTG.
      .
      In fact more than a couple of people picked up on it.
      .
      DSM

    • Ransompw Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 12:33 pm

      Curious, doesn’t your conclusion depend on whether the contamination can be explained and the nature of the explanation.

      • CuriousChris Reply

        August 12, 2012 at 12:42 pm

        Contamination is contamination. If the anomalous lead came from somewhere so could the anomalous copper.

        Perhaps you don’t understand the rigour required in scientific investigation. It makes a court room look like a jesters carnival. In that environment a contaminated DNA test would be immediately thrown out.

        The correct test is to test ALL possible sources of contamination like th reactor itself any piping and other equipment test probes etc. Once all possible sources are accounted for then you can determine transmutation as separate from simple transference.

        This is so simple its silly that someone would actually question it.

        Contamination rules out its claim of any validity.

  36. John Abrahamsen Reply

    August 11, 2012 at 5:20 am

    Happy to see my video posted here… I’ve corrected the reference to Rossi. I’m an interested engineer with an undergrad Physics background, who attended NIWEEK 2012 and was quite excited to see Cold Fusion highlighted so prominently. I did aspire to be a Nuclear Engineer at one point in my college days in the ’70s, was accepted into WPI for a Nuclear Engineering major. The “Clamshell Alliance” was marching around protesting the Seabrook, NH plant at the time. The employment environment didn’t seem favorable, as well as other factors, so I didn’t attend. This is an exciting time, as progress in this field seems to be happening.

  37. GreenWin Reply

    August 11, 2012 at 5:51 am

    Hmmm… after previews of ICCF17 demos in Korea, a few skeptics are finally taking POSITIVE action. Though sadly this cuts into the talent pool for IGZ-2013:

    http://bit.ly/TqcGMv

    Still even if a few skeps disappear there will be plenty left for the People’s Tribunal.

    IGZ-2013 Resistance Remains Futile.

    • Bettingman Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 12:33 pm

      GreenWin,
      I found the papers impressive. Although I am not a scientist, I do not think it is reasonable to blame all this data to “measurement errors”.

  38. Al Potenza Reply

    August 11, 2012 at 7:03 am

    “All test data will be published to the scientific community when the licensing is complete. They hope to start production by the end of this year, certainly within 6 months(CTO) “
    -
    That is exactly what they said last June. I suppose you will believe it again when they say it again NEXT June?

    • CuriousChris Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 7:29 am

      Al you are being unfair they have put in a lot of effort since last June.

      I mean they created that lovely power point presentation.

      • Jami Reply

        August 11, 2012 at 8:36 am

        True. And lets not forget the awesome photos from their factory they showed a couple of months ago. I sometimes feel we’re not giving DGT the credit they deserve.

        Meanwhile Rossi has announced yet another great achievement within a few days. Another major scientific breakthrough. A triumph of engineering. He can now, according to JoNP, heat his boilers with natural gas, rather than electricity. Yes, that’s right, natural gas. I love the outburst of creativity over at e-catworld.com when it comes to explaining WHY you would have to burn natural gas to keep a device going which is supposed to produce heat itself. Very fruitful.

        Over here the believers seem to be less constructive and a lot more skeptical and instead have singled out Celani as the savior for mankind in general and LENR in particular. I’m sure he’ll do just as fine as his distinguished hope-du-jour-predecessors (Piantelli, Miley, Iwamura, … ) and will add to the respectable pile of successful LENR experiments which definitely worked and forked out huge amounts of energy or at least led to incredible new insights and will be quoted as definite proof that this entire thing isn’t junk science – but which their initiators, despite being sooo close to changing the world forever, forgot to pursue.

  39. General Zaroff Reply

    August 11, 2012 at 7:35 am

    Hello friends!

    What exciting times indeed! You probably think all the skeptics have lost their balls and run home. Well, I still have all three of mine, so here is my current assessment of the situation:

    1) Rossi – scam, possibly insane.

    2) Defkalion – scam.

    3) Celani – interesting, let’s see some real details.

    4) Daniel – you are amazing. You inspire everyone who ever thought that a non-functional understanding of a topic would prevent them from joining a debate. Keep it up!

    5) Ransompw – I couldn’t help but notice your cruel words to Thicket: “You are a case study on this stupidity. You make me laugh.” You have inspired me to write another limerick, just for you:

    Our lawyer friend clumsily dances,
    ’round topics he seldom enhances,
    his claimed air of neutrality,
    is far from reality,
    he’s better at chasing ambulances.

    If you are going to say it out loud, pronounce ‘ambulances’ as ‘ambu-lances’ to get the rhyme just right.

    Back to the hunt now.

    • Ransompw Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 12:26 pm

      Ok General, let’s try and discuss a substantive issue, why do you believe Defkalion is a scam?

      • CuriousChris Reply

        August 11, 2012 at 3:31 pm

        Been there done that. Rossi is a fraud only fools think otherwise DGT is based on Rossi AKA DGT is a fraud.

        27 scientists claim. what a load of bunk (out of a staff of what 40 odd)
        Dumps Rossi and does within 3 months what the CF Community was unable to do in 23 Years
        Latest test results show a claim of transmution yet includes obvious contamination
        Admits to stealing a peek into Rossi’s invention but then claims it did not influence them.
        Constant lies about disclosure. still lying about disclosure

        This ones for Alain DGT’s biggest groupie. Remember when I pointed out on the forum DGT’s press release about the testing and how I pointed out it meant DGT could refuse to allow any testers release their results. You told me that was rubbish they could not do that at all.

        Have we seen any of those 3rd party test results. perhaps because they never happened or perhaps because they were a tremendous flop and DGT suppressed the release of the data.

        Not a flop you say… So where then are the results. Oh dont forget that letter they sent to a select few. it promised a commercial device in What June this year or was that July I can’t recall

        There are many many others but damn I forget.

        No DGT have done zero to give me any confidence.

        Want more apart from the contaminated so called proof of transmutation. Take a look at page 31 of the same powerpoint it shows power in of 143 watt hours and an output of 166 Watt hours (nice software NI) a 20% increase and yet they claim a COP of 22! Power output should be in the range of 3KW hours what happened to the other 2,836Wh ?

        But apart from that its a pretty presentation and when you look pretty you don’t need any substance you’ll still get admired.

    • GreenWin Reply

      August 11, 2012 at 3:13 pm

      Ah Generale,

      isn’t it gratifying that even the thickest can inspire!!

      There once was a skep named Thikhed
      A friend of the Smith called Dickhed
      Together they whine
      Complain and opine
      Both are substantially brain dead.

      IGZ-2013 Resistance is Futile.

  40. PersonFromPorlock Reply

    August 19, 2012 at 11:48 pm

    Oh, I do love the tag end of a thread.

    “What is best in life?”

    “To discomfit your critics, see them driven before you, and to hear their women say ‘I told you so’.”

    Just sayin’.

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