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Where Are We Now?

July 26, 2012

According to Andrea Rossi, the eCat is now breaking the 1,000 C barrier and although we might have to wait an indeterminate time for domestic certification, at least the secret 1MW plant customers are happy. The building of the secret eCat factory continues apace and the secret partners are helping him innovate the secret process he can’t talk about but is happy to announce.

If you are new to this party, I would not blame you for thinking that eCat News is a den of negativity, but here’s the truth. I retain hope over experience that the eCat will deliver us the energy revolution we desperately need. If you doubt the honesty of this site, pick a handful of articles written over the months of last summer, autumn and winter or even into this spring and you will see that I was doing my best to fight off what I saw as disinformation and FUD from the toughest sceptics determined to pull the house down. I deliberately gave them their lead because I felt that their tactics would be more transparent when seen through a single window. As a hopeful sceptic myself (I felt there was enough smoke to warrant checking for fire but not to believe without seeing) I also felt they were an annoying necessity lest we close our minds to being wrong.

It is with a heavy heart that I find it ever harder to argue against them and although their certainty grates on me, the longer this goes on without Andrea Rossi delivering something concrete, the greater the likelihood there never was anything in the first place. I am not there yet. It is hard to believe all those people close to him have been fooled. The waters AR is swimming in are truly filled with sharks and the argument that he should operate by their rules is risible. So far, that argument has taken him a long way but it is wearing thin.

If he or Defkalion suddenly pulls the cat from the bag, no words from any sceptic will make a blind bit of difference and this period of frustration will be history. For now, however, I believe the sceptics are winning the argument. Thankfully, the aggregate evidence for LENR (as an unexplained heat effect) is more substantial and the cloud of derision the researchers often work under is beginning to slowly lift.

As always, I appreciate the continued comments and assure readers that I will report with absolute honesty whenever something of substance comes from the eCat or Defkalion camps, even if I do not like what that is. Unfortunately, I am not happy to report the recent succession of spiraling claims and urge the two companies to think again if they care for their public image. There is a small army out there waiting to support you but only if you start delivering what you promised. The clock is ticking.

 

 

 

Posted by on July 26, 2012. Filed under Defkalion,Rossi. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

663 Responses to Where Are We Now?

  1. dsm

    August 1, 2012 at 9:50 pm

    And in case any slow witted members here were in ANY doubt whatsoever …
    .
    DSM
    .

    Mark Saker
    August 1st, 2012 at 7:43 AM

    Dear Andrea Rossi,

    1. It is great news about you attending Zurich on September 8-9 for the conference entitled ‘Energy Change with E-Cat Technology’. Can you advise whether any working e-cats will be presented?

    2. If the answer is yes, will it be the domestic low termperature e-cat, or high temperature e-cat?

    Many Many Thanks

    Mark
    Andrea Rossi
    August 1st, 2012 at 12:26 PM

    Dear Mark Saker:
    No, that will not be a demo, but a convention.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  2. Tony

    August 1, 2012 at 10:32 pm

    dsm

    I know he has great intelligence sources so he probably could find me easily enough. He’d never take me alive, though.

    Plus, unless the ecat is now capable of time travel, he’ll never be able to prove he WON’T say those words. Unless…………………

    Crap, I probably missed the JoNP post where he does claim time travel as part of the latest ecat.

    Tony2

    • dsm

      August 1, 2012 at 11:08 pm

      LOL 🙂
      D

    • dsm

      August 1, 2012 at 11:11 pm

      PS Tony
      .
      My post about slow witted members was in relation to any of us not seeing Rossi saying “No, that will not be a demo, but a convention.”.
      .
      So, no eCat (despite all the claims about a factory & production line). I still cannot believe that so many believers can’t see what is happening.
      .
      DSM

      • daniel maris

        August 1, 2012 at 11:34 pm

        What is the 1 MW, which Rossi and his licensees claim is on sale now, if not an E cat then?

        Presumably you mean it hasn’t been demonstrated to your satisfaction? Is that it?

        • dsm

          August 1, 2012 at 11:42 pm

          Daniel my dear ole friend. Can you name any 1 organization with appropriate credentials, who has validated one ?.
          .
          or, better still, name a single customer who has bought one ?.
          .
          No ? – hmmmmm, I wonder why ? (don’t you ?)
          .
          D
          .
          (PS Daniel, are you by any chance older than Focardi ? – just wondering)

        • dsm

          August 1, 2012 at 11:58 pm

          Daniel
          .
          Here is an interview with the electricly sharp minded Prof Fopcardi that proves how much he knows every little detail of the eCat including how to blow open the Coulomb barrier.
          .
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HOBhA0TDHc
          .
          DSM

          • dsm

            August 2, 2012 at 12:04 am

            My Appologies – I shd have seen & corrected the spelling of Focardi’s name – (must have been a freudian slip – but was not intentional).
            D.

          • John Milstone

            August 2, 2012 at 11:10 am

            Great find, dsm!

            Interviewer: “What innovations has Rossi introduced to produce these results?”

            Focardi: “With a reserved formula that I don’t know and I don’t want to know and of which I have not asked.”

            Wow! What an inspiring example of the spirit of scientific discovery!

            He doesn’t know. He doesn’t want to know. But we’re supposed to trust him to know what he’s talking about.

          • CuriousChris

            August 2, 2012 at 1:08 pm

            Even I know what the secret ingredient is Rossi adds.

            Bullshit! It has the magical ability to make anything better, hotter, faster, more healthy, less fatty …

            It is the most magical ingredient of all. and its really really cheap.

        • John Milstone

          August 2, 2012 at 1:10 am

          What is the 1 MW, which Rossi and his licensees claim is on sale now, if not an E cat then?

          It is the exact same thing as his German “licensee’s” perpetual motion electric generator: a fraud.

          The alleged perpetual motion generator has been “on sale” for several years. There’s no sign that anyone has actually bought one, just like Rossi’s E-Cat.

      • Ransompw

        August 2, 2012 at 12:16 am

        DSM;

        Just out of curiousity, what is happening?

        • dsm

          August 2, 2012 at 12:24 am

          Nothing ! 🙂
          .
          My original post was a quote from Rossi saying nothing would be demonstrated at the Switzerland event just words.
          .
          I was just being guilty of doing a ‘told you so’ fandango.
          .
          Cheers
          .
          DSM

  3. Tyler

    August 1, 2012 at 11:53 pm

    I have been invited and will be presenting my document “Is Commercial LENR the Real Deal?” next week at ICCF-17 in S. Korea (hopefully not filling in for Defkalion, I really hope they show up and have something interesting to say) It should be an interesting week in Daejeon and perhaps I will glean some better facts about what is really going on with higher power LENR behind the scenes, if anything.

    I created and shared this presentation in order to offer a reference point for the facts as they are today and to provide value for this discussion. I had not expected the doc to be viewed broadly yet as it was not quite finished, but close enough. Thanks for the feedback and corrections (jami, dfnj, AB, daniel, ville, etc) I have incorporated your changes and will continue to update.

    If you believe I have made a mistake in any of the facts that are shown, please let me know what is stated incorrectly and include a source and I will change it. I want this doc to be as accurate and credible as possible. I also added my bio at the end – I am not sure if this adds credibility to my presentation or not, that is up to you.

    It is clear I tend to be a believer (even though I am not yet 100% convinced of kw output/control), however, I think the evidence we do have, when taken as a whole, is interesting and certainly worth evaluating further.

    I hope you get value from the presentation no matter which side of the debate you are on. For easy reference, I will keep the latest version posted at:

    http://www.lenrproof.com

    Tyler

    • daniel maris

      August 2, 2012 at 12:57 am

      Thanks Tyler for the update – I praised your presentation as the best available summation of where we are on LENR when I first came across it. It’s very clear and comprehensive.

      I hope the presentation goes well.

    • Methusela

      August 2, 2012 at 9:14 am

      On page 19, fact 3: you state that Nickel is the most abundant metal on Earth, and Hydrogen is the most abundant gas.

      Perhaps you could clarify this?

      • Tyler

        August 2, 2012 at 12:34 pm

        Methusela,

        thanks for the feedback, this was an error.

        It now reads: “The current fuel for LENR, small amounts of nickel + hydrogen, is nearly limitless using one of the most abundant metals on earth along with the most abundant gas.”

        thanks,
        tyler

    • CuriousChris

      August 2, 2012 at 1:12 pm

      Unless you can provide proof. not just a series of slides talking about unsubstantiated claims made by others. then why bother.

      You have the conference regulars doing that for you.

    • Bettingman

      August 3, 2012 at 9:32 pm

      Tyler,
      I think this is a good slide show. You make us Dutch people proud. However, I personal feel that in the absence of any evidence, you give too much credibility to the claims of Rossi and DGT. Don’t get me wrong, I would love them to actually have mastered the LENR phenomena. But in the absence of any independent test results from credible party’s one has to be careful. Do you speak after DGT? In that case you have the opportunity to adjust your remarks to the level of information they give at the conference. Prepare for both scenario’s…

    • rocketengineer2

      August 8, 2012 at 2:02 am

      Tyler: I have been following LENR since 1989 as an interested outsider engineer. Thank you for this excellent paper. I thought it was great until near the end where it ran off the track in 4 different directions. I think your credibility is hurt by these, and I will be happy to share them with you. One of the 4 deals directly with my day job, so I know that of which I speak. Unfortunately, this forum tends to run with high gain and low signal-to-noise ratio. Do you have an email address, or do you want me to reply on this forum, or are you not interested?

  4. Tony

    August 2, 2012 at 12:03 am

    dsm

    Of course I understand. I also wish it to be true but no thinking person can possibly believe it now.

    Let me really stir the pot, so to speak.

    Ransom/General,

    When AR gets to me for my libelous, slandering statements of September 1, 2012( which haven’t even happened yet) I claim (as I am) to be a psychic who has many proven forays into the future but not at 100%.

    As my foundation, I claim that I can see gasoline prices rising in the US over the summer and then falling somewhat in the fall. I will be correct.

    I know I need more. I did predict that that cheating heartbreaker Kristen Stewart was going to bed another man much to the chagrin of her man, Robert Pattinson. I predicted this right at the opening of “Snow White and the Huntsman”. Unfortunately, my prediction called the Huntsman as the man with the longest spear, so to speak, and not the directo. However, I was 50% correct before the event was announced. AR can not show 50% correct in anything he’s done – ever. And certainly not before the event itself.

    Ransom – How will you hang me?

    General – How will you save me?

    We might as well do this until September 1.

    Tony2

    • Ransompw

      August 2, 2012 at 12:33 am

      Tony:

      Your comment was a prediction (you labeled it September 1), you can’t libel someone by predicting what they will say or do in the future.

      But just think by doing what you did, Rossi now changes his game plan and has the convention so he doesn’t prove you right. DSM who thought he had No intention of going and of course wouldn’t have when Rossi cancelled the event, now has a last minute change of heart, goes to the convention and in a fit of rage attacks Rossi, hurting him severly.

      DSM gets sued for Battery and with the money Rossi actually hires real scientists to complete the ecat(he’s too badly injured to be able to continue his work) and the world gets Cold Fusion.

      And all because of you.

      • Methusela

        August 2, 2012 at 1:19 pm

        Is that true?

        IF I were to alledge that Jami was going to ‘come out of the closet’ on September 1st 2012, or that he’s going to stop beating his wife on that date, aren’t I making a future inference from his present situation that he might view as libelous?

        • Ransompw

          August 2, 2012 at 1:36 pm

          Well sure, in the he will stop beating his wife you are not implying, you are saying he is currently beating his wife, I don’t really see Tony’s comment as making a statement of that kind.

  5. Tony

    August 2, 2012 at 2:24 am

    Ransom,

    Even as a believer that AR is a fraud, if any action I do would lead to a LENR-real world, then I’ll happily wear that yoke. And expect a commission of some sort. I’m not really a psychic, just a lowly salesperson.

    I don’t see dsm as a master of the fighting arts from his posts but, who knows?. Although I think he would stop just short of smacking AR, I bet that the verbal lashing would make AR smart for weeks.

    I expected crucification from you,Ransom, not the gentle-minded response that you gave. Although I will say that I sense in your most recent posts the attitude of a man who has finally come to the realization that the love of his life (be it man, woman, or animal) has moved on, nevermore to return.

    You seem to find me harmless in my statements. Will the general do the same?

    Tony2

    PS – And maybe most of you don’t realize – but JNewman will because he defended me many months ago against the nefarious TONY who stole my original moniker and forced me to my knees as TONY2 – I’ve been on this site from pretty much the begining of this whole thing. I sell mass spectrometers into all sorts of alternative energy deals. We do gasification; algae; coal-to-liquid/gas and I spend way more time than my handlers would like on alternative energy paths. My first real glimpse of the alternative energy fraud routine was via Genesis World Energy. They had a device to turn water into power. Check it out. The deal was that only underpriveleged folks could get licenses (AR-profits to kids with cancer); licensees only had the abilty to produce a shell while the master held the core (don’t need to say any more here). Just like Steorn and everybody else, they were going to save the world. When it was running, it was a fabulous scam. You could get paperwork to apply for low-income grants to start your own free energy business as a Genesis manufacturing site. The guy pulled in something like 3 MM before he was finally caught. The similarities between that and this are what has held, and will hold, me until we finall hear that AR has been convicted of fraud, again.

    • Ransompw

      August 2, 2012 at 2:50 am

      Tony:

      I think you have been jaded by the scams you have seen. Rossi may be another, time will tell, but I think LENR will surprise you if you think it is a fraud or a mirage.

      • Dale G. Basgall

        August 2, 2012 at 5:49 am

        Mr. Randsompw; you are an attorney and let’s say AR came to you and said someone has just filed a civil law suit against him and it was for a scam.

        The person who filed the law suit would have to hire an attorney first to sue Mr. Rossi for a scam so it could be filed.

        Since we are in the year and seven months Rossi sais in your opintion how difficult would it be to defend that? Wouldn’t that person filing the suit be required to prove something in fact that is required to get a judgement for a scam?

        In simple I just think AR acted excited because of what he belived existed so how could anyone get a judgement of a scam especially after a jury trial is requested. How many years and how many hundreds of grands do you think it may possibly take for someone to sue and get a judgement on a scam?

        It seems like buyer be ware all over in the real world of product sales. What does a person need in fact to solidify a scam in a court of law and in light of the claims of Mr. Rossi which have not been clearly shown to be false yet?

        • dsm

          August 2, 2012 at 6:51 am

          No one has ever prosecuted Paul Moller for not delivering a skycar. (He did get nailed by the SEC for some stock trading issues but not jailed).
          .
          NASA Chief Scientist Dennis Bushnell is still quoted on Moller’s web site as stating how wonderful the Skycar is.
          .
          Moller shifted his manufacturing to China recently after 40 years trying to build a working Skycar in the USA. Is he a scammer ? – who can say ?.
          .
          Enough said 🙂
          .
          DSM

        • CuriousChris

          August 4, 2012 at 7:41 am

          Its a bloody foldaway helicopter. not a sky car and there have been various versions of it and other flying cars for the last century.

    • General Zaroff

      August 2, 2012 at 7:44 am

      Hi Tony, I am sorry for my delay, I was a bit tied-up.

      As I see it, you are in big trouble. It is lucky you asked me for help, because helping people is one of the things I do best. I guess I just care a lot about the well-being of those around me.

      When I am in big trouble I usually like to create a diversion. Like a natural gas explosion or train derailment. Something to take a little heat off of me. But this might lie outside of your code of conduct, so perhaps claiming psychic abilities is an ok alternative.

      And if the psychic thing flops, just remember: if Rossi can’t find you then he can’t bring you to justice. So, I propose the following evasive tactic.

      You will need an ice hockey helmet, leather chaps, water wings, and a baseball bat before you begin. Wear the gear and proceed to the nearest elementary school or community library. The chaps should draw attention away from your face, making you harder to identify. Rossi and his security squad are unlikely to start trouble in a crowd, especially near children. Safety in numbers, Tony.

      Make sure to leave all forms of ID at home so that if you are apprehended Rossi will have difficulty proving your identity. Tell anyone who will listen that you are being chased by an Italian man in command of a special forces unit. Use the baseball bat to defend yourself, and if necessary dive into the nearest river to escape. Don’t worry, the water wings will keep you afloat. General Zaroff thinks of everything.

      Finally, if you have to urinate do it in the open, you wouldn’t want to make things to easy for the Rossi-gestapo by going into a confined space.

      Good luck Tony.

      • GreenWin

        August 3, 2012 at 8:57 pm

        GZ, thanks for this post. Our dragoons are now prepared for skeptos wearing chaps and water wings, fleeing from justice. Tony will make an excellent perpetraitor at the People’s Tribunal – it’s speculated he’ll be a kicker and screamer – which of course is exactly what our sponsors are looking for!!

        “ISLAND OF GENERAL ZARCOFIGUS” premiering Summer 2013.

  6. dsm

    August 2, 2012 at 5:45 am

    Just to help the feeble minded among us (those who in particular have no stomach for research) I have made 3 large posts detailing the period from July 2007 when Rossi met and approached Focardi to check his reactor design prior to building the device and how in the 1st patent Rossi claimed the famous 20KW factory heater eCat was built on 17 Oct 2007. From go to whoa in 3.5 months (design to success).
    .
    This period of 3.5 months also includes the time Rossi ‘built and destroyed 1000s of eCats – the famed Edisonian effort of Rossi) before he supposedly hit on a successful mix. Just do the math. Even at 4 hrs per test & analysis would be 4000 hrs / 8 = roughly 500 days for a small team.
    .
    Pls go back to the sequence at …
    .
    dsm August 1, 2012 at 10:22 pm
    .
    Enjoy.
    .
    DSM

  7. Al Potenza

    August 2, 2012 at 7:11 am

    Well, this says it all (from JONP):

    “Dear Andrea Rossi,

    1. It is great news about you attending Zurich on September 8-9 for the conference entitled ‘Energy Change with E-Cat Technology’. Can you advise whether any working e-cats will be presented?

    Dear Mark Saker:
    No, that will not be a demo, but a convention.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”

    So sorry suckers, I won’t do the tricks again. You might catch on the next time.

    • dsm

      August 2, 2012 at 8:32 am

      Al you are a bit late – that got posted 8 hrs ago by moi !. dsm August 1, 2012 at 9:50 pm

      .
      (perhaps there is a timing problem with posts from different locations ? – Ransompw also asked what the excitement was about (after some responses to my post on this very same info).
      .
      Puzzled ?
      .
      DSM

      • Ransompw

        August 2, 2012 at 1:28 pm

        DSM:

        I wasn’t asking about the above post. You said in a comment that it was surprising we (those following this drama) didn’t know what was going on. I thought you meant you knew Rossi’s endgame which based on what I have seen eludes me and asked what you meant. I don’t see how he is going to get rich with this if is a scam.

        • John Milstone

          August 2, 2012 at 4:10 pm

          I don’t see how he is going to get rich with this if is a scam.

          Then you haven’t bothered to study any of the dozens (hundreds?) of similar scams throughout the last century.

          Here’s a summary:

          1. Build a fraudulent invention that can be used to provide “demos” to gullible investors.

          2. Show device to people, carefully pick out the ones who fall for it.

          3. Sell them licenses/franchises/stocks.

          4. Convince them that you are making progress but need more money to actually reach the point where you can start selling the gadget.

          5. Live the good life while pretending to be spending the money on R&D for your gadget.

          6. Go to Step 2

          • Ransompw

            August 2, 2012 at 7:01 pm

            Milstone:

            He is selling exclusive franchises for 100000 euro’s. He isn’t getting rich from that and a franchisee expects to sell something and he has told them he has a product ready to sell and deliver in months. What do you think the franchisee’s are going to do?

          • John Milstone

            August 2, 2012 at 8:07 pm

            He is selling exclusive franchises for 100000 euro’s. He isn’t getting rich from that

            Assuming the Million-Euro is an accurate number (where did you get it?), and that he’s claiming to sell numerous franchises, that is a huge payoff for a year of bogus dog & pony shows.

            What have we actually seen that would cost Rossi money? There is:

            1 empty garage.
            1 satchel of common plumbing tools
            3-4 tabletop gadgets, probably less than $100 in materials each.
            1 shipping container (probably the most expensive part of his show; perhaps $2000 – $3000).
            100 empty boxes wrapped in insulation.
            Rental of a diesel generator and industrial heat exchanger (never actually used).

            That’s about it. We haven’t seen any evidence for a second “secret” factory in Italy. We haven’t seen any evidence for a “secret” robotic factory in Florida. We haven’t seen any evidence for the alleged “thousands” of E-Cats he supposedly build (not even keeping the ones that supposedly “blew up” as souvenirs.

            A reward of tens-of-millions of Euros (depending on how many franchises he sold) is a very lucrative return on perhaps 100,000 Euros in total cost. Especially when he isn’t really spending the money on R&D, but rather on condos on the beach.

            As for the franchisees, they are the most brainwashed people in the world when it comes to Rossi. Remember, even most of Rossi’s staunchest supporters have made it clear that they don’t trust him enough to give him a penny. So think about how “extreme” the belief of his investors must be to trust him with a million Euros! It will be a long time before they finally come to their senses. In the meantime, no one else has standing to go after Rossi in court.

            This is exactly the same story we’ve seen over and over again.

          • Ransompw

            August 2, 2012 at 8:34 pm

            John:

            It isn’t a million euro, it’s one hundred thousand and it comes from the license agreement just posted by Gary Wright. And that was all Rossi got for the entire India Pakistan market.

            Even if he sold 10 of those he’s making very little and they will want a produce in months.

            If you want to scam you need investors who don’t have contracts you need to fulfill, not licensees.

          • JNewman

            August 2, 2012 at 8:48 pm

            Those seeking to make the best of the goulash of things Rossi has said are faced with a choice: either he has raised millions of dollars from investors/licensees/whatever or his claims of building a factory and many other things are simply bogus. Or do people think he can do all he said with a few hundred thousand dollars?

          • John Milstone

            August 2, 2012 at 10:14 pm

            Even if he sold 10 of those he’s making very little and they will want a produce in months.

            If you want to scam you need investors who don’t have contracts you need to fulfill, not licensees.

            We’ll see.

            He’s been claiming a “4 month delivery” since January (and has claimed to “be shipping” more than once since November), but there’s still no sign that anyone has actually been able to buy one.

            I’m predicting that there will never be a real product, delivered to a real customer.

            How long are you willing to wait without any evidence of a real product delivered to a real customer before you decide that this is a scam?

            We can check back at that time and see how things have progressed.

  8. Quax

    August 2, 2012 at 9:00 am

    As we rolled over to a new comment thread:

    Just a friendly reminder that if you haven’t done so yet, to consider taking part in my current LENR survey.

    Many thanks to all who already participated!

    • Bettingman

      August 3, 2012 at 7:11 pm

      I just participated, do you have any results yet?

  9. Jami

    August 2, 2012 at 10:32 am

    “…Feng Shui masters…”

    No. The Feng Shui community has taken notice though

    http://www.everyday-feng-shui.de/feng-shui-news/energiewende-mit-e-cat-technologie-kongress-in-zuerich/

    and anyway – Uta Stechl beats a Feng Shui presentation hands down. Not sure why she is listed for: “Vorteile von 1-MW-E-Cat-Anlagen zur Erzeugung von Prozesswärme. Einsatzmöglichkeiten von E-Cat-Anlagen für industrielle und gewerbliche Prozesse”
    (which roughly translates to “Advantages of 1 MW e-cat plants for generating procces heat. Opportunities for industrial and commercial processes” – and sounds just as puzzling in German). According to google, her job is selling cars and in her free time, she “coaches” people to “experience our great abilities” by walking bare-footet across glowing charcoal at “700 – 1000C” (guess she measured the temperture with one of Rossi’s thermocouples and that’s where they first met). I did that the other night by accident at a beach BBQ (and not only with bare feet). While it may have been some pagan gods or spirits I didn’t even know I had which kept me from getting burned, I prefered putting it down to the charcoal’s (relatively low) temperature, thermal conductivity, fancy footwork and Vodka.

    • dsm

      August 2, 2012 at 12:10 pm

      LOL – good find !!!.
      .
      So Roger the Dodger Green is a Winner on this then.
      .
      Got eCat as a topic in the Feng Shui world Deutsland.
      .
      All my Chinese friends & acquaintances (mostly HK Cantonese) used to say to us gweilos (white Ghosts) how they tested the Feng Shui of a new apartment by taking along a relative with a new baby. If baby squawked or got distressed they immediately looked elsewhere.
      .
      I have been wondering how to use babies to test the feng Shui of an eCat installation but short of boiling them can’t see a way to do it.
      .
      I am sure my Guangdong friends will come up with a method (long before eCats go on sale in Shenzhen).
      .
      DSM

    • daniel maris

      August 2, 2012 at 10:35 pm

      You’re talking about Feng Shui as though it’s some small cult. Last count what you call the Feng Shui community numbered about 1.3billion people, all of who take it pretty seriously.

      I’m not suggesting they are right, just that it ain’t a small cult!

      • Ivy Matt

        August 4, 2012 at 12:23 pm

        I think you’re confusing two very different populations. It’s kind of like saying the Spiritualist community numbers over 300 million, all of whom take it pretty seriously (rather than, say, regarding it as an antiquated superstition).

  10. Harry Perini

    August 2, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    • dsm

      August 2, 2012 at 1:05 pm

      LOL
      .
      We need folk like you to remind us the world isn’t a monotonous stable place.
      .
      Thanks Harry
      .
      DSM

    • DvH

      August 2, 2012 at 2:17 pm

      the 2nd response of AR to the disclosure of the documents seems to indicate that they (op-manual, contract) are real – what a desaster!

      that is a serious blow to the AR enterprise…

    • John Milstone

      August 2, 2012 at 4:06 pm

      That is laughable.

      Gary Wright and Steve Krivit don’t sound anything like each other. Plus, Krivit hasn’t shown any hesitation to demolish Rossi’s scam throughout the last 18 months or so.

      Rossi isn’t stupid enough to actually open himself up to discovery in a court case.

    • John Milstone

      August 2, 2012 at 4:14 pm

      There is an interesting link to a Vortex posting (HERE) from Peter Gluck:

      Re: [Vo]:Popular Science and a possible September LENR Cold Fusion arcticle
      Peter Gluck
      Tue, 31 Jul 2012 11:09:24 -0700

      Dear Ron,

      It is circulating a gossip, just gossip that Rossi has tried a demo for
      PopSci and it was not a convincing success.
      Perhaps a colleague knows more or can ask at Popular Science.
      Peter

      My guess is that Rossi will never have a convincing success for anyone who is actually competent to judge the results. Fortunately, his victims aren’t smart enough to distinguish between a success and a fraud.

      • Thicket

        August 2, 2012 at 5:54 pm

        No, no, no John. You have to see this rumor from the believer perspective. Popular Science would never have agreed to seeing an e-Cat demonstration if it wasn’t the real deal.

      • daniel maris

        August 2, 2012 at 6:23 pm

        Wow – you guys keep changing your story. One moment it’s “We’ll never hear any more from him.” Then it’s “He’ll never do a demonstration.” Now it’s rumoured he did a demonstration but it was unsuccessful and you nod sagely “Well – what did you expect…always said he would try a demonstration but it would be unsuccessful.”

        Please at least stick to one story.

        Personally, I think it very unlikely he would have done a demo for Popsci. Probably more likely a Popsci writer has expressed scepticism.

        But we shall see…

        • Thicket

          August 2, 2012 at 8:20 pm

          Daniel

          Why should skeptics be held to different standards than Rossi, Defkalion and the believers? The trio changes things more than I change my socks.

          • daniel maris

            August 2, 2012 at 9:50 pm

            I was thinking about it – didn’t someone from a popular science mag attend one of the Oct demos?

        • dsm

          August 2, 2012 at 9:48 pm

          Daniel
          .
          But we will keep hearing from you won’t we 🙂
          .
          Cheers – your friend DSM

        • John Milstone

          August 2, 2012 at 10:20 pm

          Wow – you guys keep changing your story.

          In spite of the True Believer’s delusion that we’re all actually the same person, we are, in fact, different people with different opinions and experiences.

          The September “conference” is obviously another dog & pony show, this time aimed at those who have already given their money to Rossi. He will definitely have it, and there won’t be any actual evidence of anything happening, although the True Believers will draw all kinds of unwarranted conclusions of progress.

          Personally, I think it very unlikely he would have done a demo for Popsci.

          I agree. Rossi won’t be doing any demos for a competent audience any more. Too many people have picked apart his earlier demos, and whatever tricks he’s been using would now be discovered.

          The only people who will see Rossi’s gadget “in operation” are those people who are too gullible to spot the trick. This would include his investors, who I’m sure he has carefully picked for their willingness to be bamboozled.

  11. Anapopei

    August 2, 2012 at 2:43 pm

    So Gary Wright is Steven Krivit’s alter ego, like Clark Kent and Superman. Under different circumstances I would have found such an assumption unreasonable but in this particular setting it sort of makes sense.

    Rossi is a kind of anti-Midas, he distorts logic as he walks around and touches stuff. Unless it is not made nickel of course, then he turns it into copper instead.

  12. Harry Perini

    August 2, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    Andrea Rossi made this statement today on the Journal of Nuclear Physics.

    I received some emails asking what can I say of a site of a guy who says his name is Gary Wright, who is an appassionate attacker of the work of mine and of our employees: as most of you know, we have very good intelligence, for obvious reasons, therefore here is the information:
    Gary Wright is not a person, it is a pseudonym of….THE SNAKE !!!!
    This coward knows that we are preparing a suit for him, therefore has invented the pseudonym Gary Wright to continue his work, which consists in getting money in change of the attempt to discredit out work. If you search Gary Wright, you will easily discover this, as our intelligence friends did. He is paid full time to discredit our work because his puppeteers are strongly worried about our work.
    And they are right. Their mistake has been to pay an imbecile like this: there are around much better puppet-snakes. For a fee I could suggest tens of them.
    Andrea Rossi

    Another comment from Rossi on this matter:

    Andrea Rossi
    July 31st, 2012 at 8:03 AM

    Dear Giovanni Guerrini:
    Now I explain a tragi-comic behaviour of the Snake: since now everybody knows that “Gary Wright” is the Snake, he changed mask: now he is Charles Branson !!!! With this name he contacted a licensee of us and saying he was making a due diligence to buy a plant, he obtained instructions manual and various information: basically, he is making espionage for the company that pays him, using the name of Charles Branson !!!! Of course all this magnificent s**t has enriched the Attorney Docket we are preparing. We have been able to bind the name of the snake to this operation , we got evidence of it by means of our intelligence system.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.
    p.s. Maybe Charles Branson has to be informed that the snake is using his name to make industrial espionage. We can give to his Attorney the evidence of this.

    • JNewman

      August 2, 2012 at 3:43 pm

      Harry, do you ever actually read anything posted on this site, or do you just breathlessly regurgitate the latest Rossi Says two days after the fact? Anyway, thanks for sharing. We don’t know what we’d do without you!

    • dsm

      August 2, 2012 at 11:52 pm

      Harry
      .
      This post post by Rossi only adds to the impression he is an immature fool playing a stupid game.
      .
      If Rossi had an iota of dignity he would never stoop to this level of paranoid posting. He would have no need to. Rossi offers no substantiation other than his usuual ‘Rossi says’ that Krivit and Wright are the same.
      .
      Anyone with any analytical capacity can see that Krivit is both intelligent and sharp witted. But, Wright may be intelligent but is by no means sharp witted. A complete contrast to Krivit.
      .
      Also Go look at Krivit’s web site. It reflect’s Krivits orderly & analytical thinking whereas Wright’s site is confused & disorganized. Krivit could not live with himself if he were associated with the pot-pouri of confusion that is Wright’s site.
      .
      Rossi’s ramblings are generally less confused & a bit more coherent than Wrights. Krivit is always sharp.
      .
      So Harry if you prefer to re-post other people’s garbage because you lack a modicum of ability to analyze it, please carry on. But do so knowing it entrenches your reputation for what you post being just someone else’s ‘carry-on’. Some of us have no shame.
      .
      DSM

  13. Thicket

    August 2, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    In other news, I know that there are a number of current and former Steorn sycophants following this forum. Steorn is in the news again.

    ————–
    Sunday Times Ireland 29th July 2012. (Business Section) Sean McCarthy, Steorn’s chief executive claims they have signed a collaboration agreement with two large multinational manufacturers ……………Mr McCarthy claims that royalty fees could bring in €50m a year by 2017.
    —————

    Time to get that Believe-o-meter cranked up again for some more ‘open-minded’ belief that Steorn could have something worthwhile.

  14. Jami

    August 2, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    “There is an interesting link to a Vortex posting (HERE) from Peter Gluck”

    Even more interesting is what Peter’s got to say on his blog:

    http://egooutpeters.blogspot.de/

    He starts with (no joke): “It’s vain to deny that our field, LENR, has wicked problems of development and of acceptance scientifically and it is nowhere technologically…”

    Wow. Having listened to Peter for years, I don’t quite know what to make of the fact that he is suddendly starting to make some kind of sense. The rest of the LENR guys (and most of the believers, of course) will probably hate him for it. Or they’ll see the light and follow his ideas – even if it still is rather a dim light.

    • daniel maris

      August 2, 2012 at 6:17 pm

      “Unpredictability, low reproducibility, lack of understanding and control cannot be tolerated for a small eternity”

      Does he apply this logic to climate science which is also unable to predict accurately, has low reproducibility, and studies something which is not well understood and certainly cannot be controlled?

      It seems to me that these problems relate more to the phenomena than the analysis.

      • Jami

        August 2, 2012 at 6:36 pm

        Predicting climate and advancing our understanding of it is the major point of climate science and the field has made major progress in that respect (or so they claim). Had they made progress similar to the levels observed in LENR, Gavin Schmidt would probably write a similarly worded open letter for the next IPCC conference. Reproducability is irrelevant. Control is something they’re seriously thinking about – and are in fact trying. Stuff like the Kyoto agreement is nothing but a feeble attempt to do just that. So what is your point? Better yet – ask Peter what he thinks about the analogy. He is quite responsive.

        • daniel maris

          August 2, 2012 at 9:46 pm

          My point is that the two sciences are at very similar stages perhaps, although climate science is clearly a much bigger-scale phenomenon than low nuclear energy reactions – and as well, that I think this reflects the nature of the phenomena i.e. they are inherently difficult to predict, to understand and to control.

          • JNewman

            August 2, 2012 at 9:58 pm

            Very similar scientific situation. Perhaps there actually is no climate.

          • Methusela

            August 2, 2012 at 10:38 pm

            @JN: Hmm, a self-deprecating comment.

            You compare the absurdity of stating ‘there is no climate’ to the statement ‘there is no LENR’.

            Perhaps there is hope for you yet?

          • dsm

            August 2, 2012 at 11:32 pm

            Metho
            You never replied to my post asking if you met Mike Cowlishaw at any time while you were in Winchester ?
            .
            🙂
            D

          • JNewman

            August 3, 2012 at 12:12 am

            Methusela, it is too priceless the way you construed my comment. Pretty much as ass-backwards as is possible. Either it is your way of being intentionally dense for sarcastic reasons or you truly don’t have a clue. I won’t ask you which…

  15. dsm

    August 2, 2012 at 10:59 pm

    To Gary Wright
    .
    Gary I just read all the stuff you posted here …
    .
    http://shutdownrossi.com/?page_id=759
    .
    Boy, does that material say a lot – paranoia, conspiracy, heavily interlaced with wild speculation, is very disjointed, there is excessive verbiage, and ‘some’ apparent facts.
    .
    I would like to be supportive as your site does have a wealth of useful information there (buried under piles of semi comprehensible verbiage & confusion).
    .
    It is a very badly constructed site that is confusing, confused, poorly navigable and at times incoherent.
    .
    I have said before & am saying again, you are doing more to boost Rossi than to harm him. And IMHO you are a difficult person to communicate with.
    .
    Go on your obsessive quest as you will but take it from me you are doing yourself a disservice by the outlandish nature of that quest.
    .
    DSM

    • dsm

      August 2, 2012 at 11:05 pm

      Adjustment.
      .
      Shd have said at the end there, “by the outlandish execution (as in the how) of that quest”.
      .
      D
      .
      PPS Can’t you see that what you are doing is actually giving hope to the confused hordes lapping up Rossi’s eCat charade !. The bulk of them have no ability to sift through your confusion when they are already so confused with what they know from Rossi, Mills, Lewan & Allan + Frank Ackland’s portal of supreme adoration!.

    • daniel maris

      August 3, 2012 at 1:47 am

      You’re right there – he is doing more to boost Rossi than otherwise.

      Which according to the “master scammer” thesis put forward by some sceptics (as opposed to the “stupid scammer” thesis put up by other sceptics) must mean Gary Wright is working for Rossi! LOL And if Gary Wright is the snake, who began as a Rossi supporter, well…join the dots…follow the money…as they say in the JFK film.

      [Please don’t take this seriously – I am just commenting on the absurdity of the situation.]

  16. dsm

    August 2, 2012 at 11:27 pm

    Some comments on Peter Gluck’s Open letter to ICCF-17.

    .
    http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/open-letter-to-iccf-17.html
    .
    Peter is to me an honest & genuine man. He has been active & involved in CF & LENR for a very long time & has at different times been friends with & had discussions with, many key players.
    .
    Peter’s post above is interesting because my translation of what he is saying & what he is seeking, is …
    .
    Peter can see that a lot of very smart people are turning off today’s LENR & CF because the reality is out of sync with the current hype. I suspect he is fearful of a repeat of 1989 but on a grander scale.
    .
    Peter is perfectly right to question why anyone would persist with Pd+D research as it is a dead loss. Wasted money. Nothing we can learn if compared to Ni+H research.
    .
    Peter also knows that not much money is really going into LENR research because the age old conflict between research effort vs research ip theft & market realization is creating serious barriers.
    .
    Peter also well understands that LENR is a multi-stage process and thus a multi-disciplinary project and thus requires cooperation not competition as no one entity is likely to succeed without the needed cooperation for other areas of expertise.
    .
    At its heart I see Peter’s appeal as seeking recognition of this challenge to LENR progress & some action put in place that can and will address it, esp the points in the last para above.
    .
    DSM

    • CuriousChris

      August 3, 2012 at 12:07 am

      He totally lost me when he gave credit to Rossi and Defkalion. how much longer can these researchers continue to pull the wool over their own eyes.

      A research field where their own peers refuse to review. they just accept. Like Focardi “I don’t Know whats in the core I DON’T WANT TO KNOW” This is the mindset of these supposed researchers. they do not follow the scientific principle, why?

      Is it because in their hearts they know that they are all wrong? PD-D is not CF but in fact something else so they cling to Rossi and DGT.

      If their hope is in that pair then they are more foolish than I could have ever guessed.

    • Ransompw

      August 3, 2012 at 12:10 am

      DSM:

      Peter also has made it clear to me in coorespondence that Defkalion would shortly prove commercial levels of energy to the public. If that is true his letter is of trivial importance. Proof of commercial levels of energy will cure all the ills he mentions.

      I don’t know if I believe his information source and if he believes the above, I have no idea why he feels his letter is necessary.

      • dsm

        August 3, 2012 at 12:16 am

        Ransompw
        .
        We may hope Peter is right that someone will do this but ask Peter if he has been to DGT and seen their hyperion. He will tell you no he hasn’t.
        .
        Cheers DSM

        • Al Potenza

          August 3, 2012 at 12:56 am

          Sterling Allan has been to Defkalion’s shop and has “seen” their hyperion. He may even have seen it running. If so, it means absolutely nothing unless he also saw independent tests correctly performed on it. I know I am repeating myself but people keep making the same errors. A demo can be faked.

          Seeing is *not* believing when reviewing extraordinary claims.

        • Ransompw

          August 3, 2012 at 1:16 am

          By the way, DSM, I think your point about research ip theft and market realization is not the issue. One definitve test of commercial levels of energy is what will open the $ floodgates regardless of patents or protectable ip.

          • CuriousChris

            August 3, 2012 at 1:22 am

            Something I can agree with.

            But it begs the question if these technologies really exist why hasn’t anyone opened that floodgate?

            Its not the first to market. its the first to prove it. Once proven so much money will flow in marketing will be easy.

          • Ransompw

            August 3, 2012 at 1:25 am

            Curious, if you could prove it but not control it enough to market it, would you open the floodgates? Especially, if you thought with a little more effort you’d have the product.

          • CuriousChris

            August 3, 2012 at 5:47 am

            If you could prove it, the money would come in. whether that be for controlling it or marketing it. The point is up until now no-one has proved anything to anyone except the hopeful’s, without proof such fringe science will never get off the ground.

            The real and only possible reason no proof has been forthcoming is there is none. just unsubstantiated claims.

            The excuse of “Commercial Reasons” does not add up. its only that. An Excuse to keep stringing people along.

          • Anapopei

            August 3, 2012 at 3:48 pm

            I beg to differ. Neither Leonardo Corp nor DGT are viable business partners or target companies for investments. As far as DGT is concerned, their business strategy is flawed, and they cannot even move an office without making a big circus out of it, and, in addition to this, they can be sued at any inconvenient moment by Rossi or whoever is helping him out.

            It would not be the first time that inventors are overrun by competitors and left with nothing.

        • Ransompw

          August 3, 2012 at 1:22 am

          DSM:

          Oh I agree which is why his certainty seems odd, but he is certain. Why, I don’t know.

          • dsm

            August 3, 2012 at 3:52 am

            Ransompw:
            .
            That has also been my observation & thoughts.
            .
            Just to clarify & without betraying confidences, Peter has others he trusts very strongly who have confirmed to him that they (DGT) have what they say.
            .
            But, whilst I respect & like Peter, it isn’t enough for me. I have though backed off DGT for 1 good reason, that is they shutup & stopped making claims. They did what they should have done from the start. Go about it without a circus in tow & all the bluster & fanfare we have become used to from Rossi.
            .
            DSM

      • John Milstone

        August 3, 2012 at 12:55 pm

        Peter also has made it clear to me in coorespondence that Defkalion would shortly prove commercial levels of energy to the public.

        Yet another example of True Believers getting excited over the prospect of some hypothetical future event.

        Funny how the reality never lives up to the rumor.

      • Bettingman

        August 3, 2012 at 7:16 pm

        Ransompw,
        I concur with your analysis.
        The same thought occurred to me. In case DGT can show they have mastered commercial levels of energy then the floodgates will be open, and the problems stated in his letter will disappear. He said he is confident that DGT has achieved this, relying on “reliable sources”. But then why write this letter? This puzzles me.

    • Alain

      August 3, 2012 at 12:32 pm

      “Peter can see that a lot of very smart people are turning off today’s LENR & CF because the reality is out of sync with the current hype. I suspect he is fearful of a repeat of 1989 but on a grander scale.”

      where do you read that?

      he seems rationally uncertain, but seems to trust DGT.
      He know enough Rossi to know that there is lies and red herring…
      He his prudent, because he have no asset in any camp.

      some launched an idea that seems more rational than others about Rossi : He his playing with us… like a kid playing with ants…
      it is funny to see us react at the least of his words… sure there is ego problems too, paranoia, red herring… but if you add the kiddy lies just to make others, the ants and the clows, react…. just fun…

      possible hypothesis…

      if you have to settle a strategy, like an investor (not in LENR but in any industry) or a professional (career choice)… you have to admit that LENR success is an hypothesis to take seriously at p>>0.5

      if you have nothing to win or loose from a bad decision, just wait and shut up, and give a range of p in[0,1], and you will be right.

      If you wan’t to understand my position, look at NI, and divide by 1000… since i’m just a professional, not a company.

      incredulity is costly for someone investing, like credulity is. Precaution principle is a stupidity in that case.

      today even fleeing the volatility, is a costly strategy, and there is traders that trade volatility, and no direction.

  17. General Zaroff

    August 3, 2012 at 5:45 am

    Daniel said: “My point is that the two sciences are at very similar stages…”

    Now I really want to know how you survived long enough to learn how to type. You seem to lack the ability to distinguish between two completely different cases. Surely Mother Nature has had many opportunities to fix her mistake using natural selection, and yet you still exist. I am puzzled.

    • daniel maris

      August 3, 2012 at 1:18 pm

      Aah, General, at last you have stumbled on that ancient verity: allegorical instruction is rarely as effective a substitute for rational discourse as crude insult.

      Scientific progress is much like natural selection: The fittest theory and practice really does survive.

      • General Zaroff

        August 3, 2012 at 4:22 pm

        I don’t mean to insult you unfairly, I am just baffled by your thought process. You think LENR and climate science are at similar stages. Can you explain why you believe that? Make a long post, use examples, and summarize both fields if you like. Maybe if you explain your position we can sort this mess out.

        • daniel maris

          August 3, 2012 at 7:21 pm

          …so you insult me fairly then, eh?

          This is a diversion but in brief there is no certainty about how climate works beyond the most basic stuff about insolation heating up the air. We don’t understand how it changes, whatever climate scientists might tell you. We can’t control it. We can’t replicate it.

          I said all that before, but it’s true.

          So Gluck must criticise climate science in the same terms if he criticises LENR on that basis.

          LENR is a small phenomenon being studied on a small scale by a small number of people. Climate is a big phenomenon being studied on a big scale by a big number of people. Perhaps those differences are what matter to you with your one eye.

          • JNewman

            August 3, 2012 at 11:29 pm

            Daniel, I think the subtle feature that you are sidestepping is that climate is an undeniably real phenomenon whereas LENR is a postulated effect used to explain a series of occasionally-observed experimental results. Despite the strong convictions of those enamored with the idea, it is still quite possible that there is no such thing as LENR. On the other hand, I think we can safely say that there is climate.

            Your point, I suppose, is that both phenomena have an incomplete theoretical understanding. That is true enough, but is really quite a secondary issue given that the very existence of LENR is suspect.

  18. Frank

    August 3, 2012 at 5:49 am

    The guys at e-catworld.com freaks out because Tyler, a regular poster on that blog (he sometimes posts also here) allegedly got invited to give a presentation at ICCF17 about commercialisation of LENR.
    If this isn’t just a hoax and the ‘International Conference for cold fusion’ doesn’t have much better information to offer than that (a conglomeration of claims and speculations gathered together from internet blogs etc, without proper/critical validation ), then I for myself know how to assess the scientific value of this conference.

    Apropos commercialisation: Frank Acland now launched a fee-based service called ‘LENRconnect’
    Seems after spurring the e-cat story for long time, he is going for some ‘compensation’ …

    • Dsm

      August 3, 2012 at 8:41 am

      If we accept that commercial venture, it might help explain Frank Ackland’s bizzare zoo for Rossi adoration.
      .
      What is the old adage “follow the money”

      DSM
      .
      PS – i hope to be able to point to (what is to me a stunning development) that may certainly raise my hope that new energy can be real. Am seeking input from trusted friends on this & will either retract or go full bore in a day or two.

      • daniel maris

        August 3, 2012 at 12:50 pm

        We await with interest!

      • Bettingman

        August 3, 2012 at 7:26 pm

        DSM,
        You sure know how to make a LENR fan curious…!!!

      • dsm

        August 3, 2012 at 10:58 pm

        Right.
        .
        As some of you will know, I have been posting teasers about if a Papp engine will come to market before an eCat.
        .
        I was always 1/2 serious as the research I have done into the enigmatic & eccentric Papp & his engine, has always been intriguing.
        .
        The big problem I had with the Rohners was that in the case of John Rohner & PlasmERG, I could never find any evidence of a witness to him having a working prototype, just 1/2 baked static demos. Also, there was some semi-scandal about how he obtained the Papp patents.
        .
        In the case of Tom Rohner, I never saw enough from him to know what he had.
        .
        What I have been looking for was any proof that anyone could cycle a mix of Noble gasses such that they did the expand/contract process Papp was said to have been able to achieve.
        .
        So yesterday I finally went looking for the Rohner presentation that was to be given just over a week ago at an exotic energy conference in the US. Sure enough Tom Rohner was there & said he would demo the cycle for the audience (not a working enine but a single cylinder set up that showed the expansion & collapse cycle.
        .
        Much to my surprise I recognised Mike McKubre sitting on the panel behind where Tom Rohner was demoing & sure enough Mike McKubre introduced himself & said how he had known Tom for some years & recently Tom had sent him videos of what he had at last achieved & McKubre said he then went and validated the process. Then Tom Rohner did a full demo.
        .
        The video runs for an hour or so & Tom speaks a bit about Papp & how Papp was paid millions to complete the concept but never did anything more than play with the engine & spend the investors money (house in Florida, helicopter, world trips etc: )
        .
        Anyway, the demo satisfied me that (assuming Mike McKubre wasn’t supporting a pure scam) that this concept works & that in turn leads me to wonder if John Rohner’s PlasmERG really will deliver working engines this year.
        .

        So here is the link to the July event. Judge for yourselves but it has sure got me hooked.
        .
        DSM
        .

        http://rohnermachine.com/pagedocuments.html
        .
        Original Gene Mallove Story.
        http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html

        • CuriousChris

          August 4, 2012 at 8:30 am

          Very interesting. So Feynman was directly responsible for another mans death!

          Sadly Ronhner explains its not overunity. claims its on the way and he thinks the low power engine is OU but cant verify that.

          What is fantastic is his openness. this should be a doddle for a reasonable lab to replicate

        • Bettingman

          August 4, 2012 at 1:37 pm

          Indeed very interesting. I wonder whether the same underlying mechanism is envolved as with Lenr.
          Funny that he stated that they had no idea what the Sulfur was for!

        • CuriousChris

          August 5, 2012 at 12:24 am

          DSM

          I have had time to review the full video and digest more information including the Papp patent.

          I have multiple problems with the presentation.

          In the demo Robert Rohner proudly shows off the ‘fusion’ spark with a resulting loud bang. At the voltage levels used such a demonstration is likely to generate xrays. thus could be dangerous.

          Rohner explains that thorium used in the ‘buckets’ is safe unless ingested. he then clumsily gets it on his own fingers. from there its easy to ingest.

          The large inductor around the device could easily supply the energy required to lift the shaft and weight. It looks like a large solenoid. The flash of light (I assume is from a glass aperture) may be little more than a slideshow.

          Papps patent claims a small fusion event is occurring therefore releasing large amounts of energy. so how does this energy drive the piston? if the patent is correct then it must be a thermodynamic process. Both Rohner and mcKubre are at pains to state its not thermodynamic.

          That leaves Electromotive and the ‘inductor’ coil as the only remaining source of energy to drive the shaft.

          The above is not meant to describe what is actually happening. it is meant to describe one possibility of what is happening. In other words the demonstration while impressive leaves a lot to be desired.

          Rohner also explains how Papp lived high on the hog from investments supplied by interested parties who were too afraid to demand Papp actually produce something.

          Does that sound familiar?

          • dsm

            August 5, 2012 at 6:38 am

            Chris
            .
            I was attracted by the comments of McKubre as he has to a degree put his reputation on the line. It works as he says it does or it never did.
            .
            I have done a lot of looking into the Papp Noble Gas concept & here is what I learned (this is not what I believe just what I have learned) …
            .
            Mixing a set of Noble gasses in a particular ratio (it appears, related to the molecular # of each gas) creates a mix of what are basically inert gases.
            .
            Energizing the area around the gas turns it into a plasma. Whilst ‘plasmated’ a tiny fireball (as in lightening ball) is created with a spark. That tiny ‘fireball’ is claimed to be enough to change the state of the gas (each gas one by one expands in a very rapid sequence) such that the entire gas volume expands with great force to a larger volume (NO EXPLOSION – NO HEAT !!!).
            .
            That expansion is predictable based on the mix. The mix is used to workout a stroke.
            .
            There is NO HEAT generated other than the sparking mechanism. The expansion/contraction of the gas appears to neutralize any heat.
            .
            At the instant the electric field is cut the plasma stops & the gas reverts to its former volume. This then creates a vacuum in the chamber. In the video this effect was illustrated by the fact that the floating weight momentarily stays up as the vacuum sucks the piston back down. Thus the clunk clunk clunk sound.
            .
            Papp got granted real patents for his engine and had one dyno tested by state regulating authorities. Those patents are available & readable.
            .
            Papp was able to attract millions of dollars in investment. Bob Rohner describes this. He stated what am a*****e he though Papp was because he just took the investor’s money & spent it on having a great time but did little to refine the design into something that could be manufactured. The investor eventually seized Papp’s property after Papp died & in order to try to get something back from the millions Papp wasted.
            .
            At some time the Papp property & rights came into the possesion of John Rohner.
            .
            A war then broke between Bob & Tom Rohner & their brother John Rohner over who has rights to what. John Rohner claims he took over the assets of the investor after a bankrupcy. IMHO John Rohner is somewhat peculiar person. Bob comes across as a lot more sane but who really knows. McKubre says he has known Bob Rohner for many years and had been waiting for Bob to produce something tangible.
            .
            Ignoring the bizarre war between the Rohners (PlasmERG vs Rohner Group). The Papp concept was praised as deserving further research by Prof Gene Mallove & it is McKubre who has taken up that banner.
            .
            What we need to look at here is not if *we* grasp or don’t grasp the tech ourselves, but if scientists can validate the concept that Noble Gasses can be made to do this ‘impossible’ expansion contraction and can do it in a way that can be harnessed such as to compete with the Carnot cycle engine.
            .
            Papp engine has no fuel other than the Noble gasses, no exhaust, no heat or cooling and delivers large amounts of energy at low RPM.
            .
            Al Potenza for whatever reason motivates him, decided to trash McKubre. I tried to point out to Al that the video wasn’t & isn’t a scientific proof of anything, just informational except that McKubre said “it is impossible, but it works”. That is the potential magic. Al had no right to attack McKubre for that statement, Al would have a right to question McKubre if McKubre never backs it up.
            .
            So, if McKubre can back up that statement then we may learn how it works but we here are highly unlikely to prove anything of that aspect in our layman’s ignorance.
            .
            The other interesting aspect is if John Rohner has also succeeded (as he claims but has NEVER demoed) that he to has the cycle working. John Rohner’s PlasmERG are still claiming they will deliver ‘Plasmic Transition’ engines this year.
            .
            But as said IMHO John Rohner is a very bizarre person (new energy attracts them like flies). To see what I mean read this unbelievable web rant by John, about his brother Bob.
            http://www.rohnerengineering.com/
            http://www.pappinternational.com/
            .
            The weird stories above do not detract from the potential of Nobel Gas engines. Despite the ranting by people involved it is what McKubre said that matters just now.
            .
            When it comes to ranting we have all got used to Rossi & his rants so the Rohner war should be seen as something that comes with the teritory (technology) 🙂
            .
            Cheers DSM
            .

    • Thicket

      August 3, 2012 at 1:52 pm

      I agree with Frank. No disrespect to Tyler. He seems to be a polite and thoughtful person. Nevertheless, if the best that a conference can do is get a knowledgeable fan to summarize public information, then there is little hope that other presenters will have something meaningful.

      Conferences make money for the organizers. They need to have enough people attend and pay a fee. The conference can be great, mediocre or useless. If folks show up, the organizers are happy. If organizers need to pad the agenda, they’ll do it.

      I’ve presented at many conferences. Since I’m a good public speaker who mixes humor with content, I frequently got calls from conference organizers for my input on conference agendas. Inevitably, I would be asked to speak. Sometimes, I wouldn’t have anything useful to say about a particular conference topic. Nevertheless, the organizers were persistent in trying to convince me to speak. They were clearly interested in padding the agenda, so I would refuse.

  19. Jami

    August 3, 2012 at 8:59 am

    “He totally lost me when he gave credit to Rossi and Defkalion.”

    Of course, he claims to have insider information from sources he trusts, making him totally convinced that Defkalion is real. Whether these are the same trusted sources telling Jed that Defkalion’s lab was the bee’s knees remains to be seen. But whoever they are – they’re wrong. When it finally dawns on people like Peter that their life’s work has been misused as a playing field for buch of scammer’s (again), he will only have Piantelli to turn to as the last hope – and a couple of open letters after that, CF research will probably be pretty much dead again for another two or three decades – until the world has forgotten about it enough to enable the next scam wave.

    • Dsm

      August 3, 2012 at 11:33 am

      Jami
      Don’t bank on Piantelli for any great advances. He is actully older than Focardi & his health is deteriorating.
      .
      Sad but true.
      .
      DSM

      • Jami

        August 3, 2012 at 3:50 pm

        Don’t worry – I don’t bank on Piantelli at all. We discussed his papers here and I seem to remember that you in particular weren’t very happy with what I and others had to say about them. I merely mentioned him because Peter singled him out as the Ni-H spearhead or whatever you want to call it (that is, once Rossi and Defkalion fall out of the picture – presumably because few jails let their inmates play with fake fusion equipment and fantasize publicly on blogs).

  20. Tony

    August 3, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    Get a load of this exchange.

    Hank Mills
    August 2nd, 2012 at 3:33 PM
    Hello Andrea,

    (Disclaimer: The following post in no way whatsoever is meant to belittle a COP of 6 which is an amazing accomplishment. As it is right now, the E-Cat technology with a COP of 6 and stable temperatures of 1,000C offers a total solution to the energy crisis. However, as with any technology, improvement is possible.)

    The concept of the “drive” that is required to keep the reactor stable (being turned on every so often between periods of self sustained operation) is very interesting to me. Without the drive, it has been indicated that the reactions in the core would start to increase to the point of becoming uncontrollable. A runaway situation could be possible in which the nickel powder could melt, and render the device non-functional.

    My current guess — which could be totally wrong — is that during operation more and more reaction sites are created, increased levels of atomic hydrogen are produced, or additional nuclear processes may start taking place that may not be controllable. The purpose of the drive may be to focus high levels of heat (perhaps above 1,200C) onto the nickel powder, to damage or destroy a certain number of reaction sites. By destroying some small number of them, the reactor can remain controllable. Over time, reaction sites may start to build up, and the drive is needed to be “turned on” again.

    If this is the reason for the “drive” it seems to me that eventually a method could be developed to prevent too many from forming. The same could be true if too high a level of atomic hydrogen is formed in the reactor core after a long period of time.

    Somehow, there must be a way to construct the device so there are the equivalent of “control rods” or some other component that prevents excessive production of reaction sites, atomic hydrogen, or unwanted nuclear reactions. Coming up with such a system is probably much easier said than done, but I do not think it is impossible.

    I sincerely hope that such a control method, eliminating the drive, can be achieved in the not too distant future. It would allow for this technology — which is already a total solution to the energy crisis — to become even more spectacular. Basically, it would make the technology simpler, because there would be no need to direct a portion of the output back to the input.

    I wish there was a way you could share at least a little information about what is taking place inside the reactor core, so perhaps we could brainstorm ideas for you. Even if many of them were rubbish, a few of them might be useful. Of course I totally understand your need for secrecy due to the snakes and wannabe competitors that exist. There are many of them, and they cannot wait to use any bit of information you reveal against your company.

    Hank Mills

    Andrea Rossi
    August 2nd, 2012 at 3:42 PM
    Dear Hank Mills:
    You are right.
    I understand you and you understand me. It’s matter of time.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    You can’t even make this stuff up. I really want to get my hands on whatever these guys are smoking. I’ll make real money with that!

    Tony2

    • JNewman

      August 3, 2012 at 4:11 pm

      Tony, don’t lose sight of the fact that what you cite as hilarious technobabble will be seen as more great news by some of our fellow blog denizens. Everything has its purpose.

    • General Zaroff

      August 3, 2012 at 4:45 pm

      I like the parts where he asserts that the ecat is already a complete solution to the energy crisis.

      • Al Potenza

        August 3, 2012 at 7:10 pm

        Yes. Problem is, nobody involved seems to be in much of a rush to implement any visible part of that solution. I can’t imagine why that might be. It’s coming up on 18 months since the redoubtable Dr. Levi showed a tiny prototype ecat making 130 kilowatts! There should be a megawatt plant around almost every corner by now. I wonder why nobody has seen one operating ever unless you consider the lame pretense of October 28, 2011, with the big diesel generator, an operating plant.

        Am I repeating myself? I wonder why.

  21. Bigwilly

    August 3, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    Dear Sirs,

    I have been catching up on this blog for the past couple of weeks and have truly enjoyed all comments, even some of the more laughable ones.

    Here is a serious question. Is Hank Mills a real person? Do we know that? His stories appear to be written by some sort of credulous robot. No offense to Mr. Mills just my humble opinion.

    Thank you all for the excellent read. I wish Popeye was still posting. His level of thoroughness and neutral tone really impressed me.

    BW

  22. Al Potenza

    August 3, 2012 at 6:42 pm

    You don’t really need to go to Rossi’s convention. It’s just going to be a replay of this conference. Probably minus even the silly demo in the video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DtJDFWtFsQ

    Sorry if this link has been posted before. It’s interesting because it demonstrates that Rossi is “showing” the same junky gear as he did on October 6, 2011, probably with the same misplaced output temperature measurement, if he even bothers to show them that and the resulting erroneous calculations of output energy.

  23. General Zaroff

    August 3, 2012 at 8:21 pm

    Daniel said: “This is a diversion but in brief there is no certainty about how climate works beyond the most basic stuff about insolation heating up the air. We don’t understand how it changes, whatever climate scientists might tell you. We can’t control it. We can’t replicate it.
    I said all that before, but it’s true. ”

    I like diversions. Besides, it is not like anything of merit is happening in LENR right now.

    So, can you tell me how you arrived at your conclusions? When you say something like “…whatever climate scientists might tell you”, you imply that you are better informed by some different source. Who are you listening to, or do you read the papers and find the flaws by yourself?

    And please explain what you mean by “We can’t replicate it”?

    • Jami

      August 3, 2012 at 8:30 pm

      @Daniel
      Sorry, but that is utter nonsense. First of all, climate exists (nobody denies that, right?) while LENR most likely doesn’t. That alone makes a huge difference. The first worms winding their way through the ancient oceans could already tell that it was getting warmer or colder, that it rained or didn’t rain… basic things like that. Mind you, that is just weather – but climate is defined as weather on a long term scale. Today we can tell that there were huge shifts in climate (think about ice ages etc.) and we can try to simulate the system as such, which is, I’m giving you that, terribly difficult and prone to error. We know to a certain extend what influences climate. We can, with pretty good accuracy, determine short to medium consequences of extreme events on the climate (such as volcanoes). We can predict certain cyclic influences like el nino and la nina. All that despite the fact that there is only ONE experiment (the earth) and we can’t rush it, repeat it or even halfway completely monitor it.
      Where is LENR compared with that? Some anecdotes about excess heat measured sometimes by some people and an idea that this may be somehow related to an as yet totally unknown and unexplained reaction on a nuclear level contradicting everything mankind has so far learned about nature. Even if you’re convinced enough by the anecdotes to believe that “something” is there, you can’t even define what it could possibly be and how it may have come about. I bet you any money, that you’ll find not a single LENR researcher anywhere who wouldn’t laugh when confronted with your analogy. It is outlandish.

    • daniel maris

      August 3, 2012 at 9:52 pm

      All scientists like to overestimate the extent of their knowledge. Cosmologists tell you they understand so much about the origins of the universe but if there are 121 cosmological theories one wonders. Doctors make some bold statements in those abstracts on new medicines. Are you navie enough to believe they understand how those drugs are interacting with the body in each and every case? Evolutionary biologist confidently told us that there was no such thing as inheritance of environmentally acquired characteristics, until along came epigenetics.

      Climate science is a complex business. I notice climate scientists were predicting an ice age and now they are predicting global warming. They might be right this time, but whether they are right for the right reasons we don’t even know yet since some solar-orientated climate scientists have also predicted global warming.

      We can’t as yet replicate oceans and atmosphere – they are too big to replicate.

      Are you denying the reality of anomalous heat generation? Sounds like you are.

  24. Al Potenza

    August 3, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    Take a peak at the newest program from Rossi:

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2oZKvHHUzd9cU1WdFVGcFF1ZVU/edit?pli=1

    Saturday 8PM. “Validation by third party company”.

    WTF does that mean exactly?

    Does that mean from a famous lab or large university official endorsement? Want to bet not. It’s going to be another anonymous and un-interviewable NATO colonel type performance, don’t you think? Or could it be that Rossi is closely tied to that “third party company”? It will be fun to see if it happens at all.

    • Bettingman

      August 3, 2012 at 9:11 pm

      Al,
      I also find this hard to believe and suspect another “colonel” performance. My money would be on that. Anybody wants to make a bet with me?

    • GreenWin

      August 3, 2012 at 9:23 pm

      I think this means that Al will be one of the first guest perps on the exciting new drama “ISLAND OF GENERAL ZARCOFAGUS” premiering summer 2013!

      http://bit.ly/QAbSXr

      There is huge excitement and a flood of applicants to be a People’s Tribunal jurist – where all perps dragged to court are found guilty!

    • daniel maris

      August 3, 2012 at 9:57 pm

      Well at least you lot will now have to abandon the “Lone Nut” theory. Seem to be quite a lot of Rossists at that meeting.

      As for the third party confirmation, I would be a bit sceptical about that as well as it happens.

  25. Harry Perini

    August 3, 2012 at 9:58 pm

    • JNewman

      August 3, 2012 at 11:33 pm

      And that’s saying something. You are a tough guy to impress.

      • dsm

        August 5, 2012 at 6:49 am

        LOL 🙂
        .
        D

  26. dsm

    August 3, 2012 at 11:03 pm

    I posted just above a more detailed set of comments.

    The below lionk has the potential to be somewhat sensational. It shows Mike McKubre endorsing proof that the Noble Gas Papp concept works & the rather long video shows Tom Rohner doing a single cylinder demo of the process.

    .
    This took place just over a week ago in the US at an exotic energy conference.
    .
    View it and decide for yourselves.
    .
    DSM
    .

    http://rohnermachine.com/pagedocuments.html
    .
    Original Gene Mallove Story.
    http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html

    • daniel maris

      August 3, 2012 at 11:25 pm

      DSM,

      Was this the big news you trailed a day or two ago?

    • Al Potenza

      August 4, 2012 at 12:44 am

      I looked at McKubre’s video. It has no measurement data, and says nothing about how he measured energy on the system he says he tested, which BTW was apparently not Rohner’s system.

      I find that his total lack of skepticism, his inability or unwillingness to ask for a decent demonstration and measurement, all add up to simply discredit McKubre. Now, I don’t believe a word of what he says about his cold fusion work and I have no idea why his company keeps him on board.

      In case nobody but me noticed, Rhoner’s machine is tethered to a huge Variac by thick wires and the Variac is plugged into the mains. Doesn’t it seem logical that the power for the thumps you see and hear in the video comes from those?

      I never cease to be amazed about the type of useless junk which passes for evidence in alternative and free energy experiments.

      I browsed through Rhoner’s other amateur videos on the same page and it was a huge waste of my time.

      • daniel maris

        August 4, 2012 at 12:53 am

        So that’s a “liar” out of liar, deluded or incompetent? I always like to check… 🙂

        • Al Potenza

          August 4, 2012 at 1:12 am

          Now how should I know. Why don’t you present those options to McKubre and let him choose which it is because it certainly is one of the three given the big, fat, energy-filled cables that obviously are the source of power for the Papp/Rhoner engine!

          • daniel maris

            August 4, 2012 at 1:37 am

            You think a scammer couldn’t hide a cable up a table leg?

          • GreenWin

            August 4, 2012 at 1:44 am

            Al, you are one of the best whiners in the skeptopathetic world! You will make an excellent perp on GENERALE ZARCOFAGUS ISLAND. Thanks for the comments – leading to your conviction:)

      • dsm

        August 4, 2012 at 1:17 am

        Despite what you are saying Al, I am certainly interested in following up to see just what does come out of McKubre’s endorsement of this.
        .
        I never saw it as a proof of the process, just a video showing the possibilities as long as McKubre’s judgement holds up. I don’t think you presented an iota of proof that McKubre is stupid.
        .
        Cheers DSM

        • Al Potenza

          August 4, 2012 at 1:30 am

          McKubre is, as a minimum, sloppy and careless. He mentioned an experiment with other people in which he saw a ten fold surplus of energy. He didn’t say who, he didn’t describe the setup, he didn’t say how the energy was measured and he didn’t say how he ruled out fraud, deceit, sleight of hand and other chicanery.

          IMHO, it is grossly incompetent to make incredible assertions about an unbelievable device (which of course, as usual, could save the world and make lots of people billionairs) without any more detail. However, it is typical of the way such claims are treated by con artists and credulous fools.

          I don’t believe one word McKubre says without lots of further proof. I think his relationship to SRI is probably similar to John Mack (the UFO abduction specialist) and his former relationship to Harvard. They tolerated him (barely) in the interest of academic freedom.

          And I think Rhoner’s “engine” is a fraud and a fake. Otherwise, why the fat wires to the mains? Explain that please? Certainly McKubre didn’t!

          • dsm

            August 4, 2012 at 1:53 am

            Al has it occurred to you that McKubre wasn’t giving that presentation just to you to prove without doubt this worked and backed up by detailed evidence ?. This was a presentation at a fairly casual event.
            .
            If you need to rip McKubre apart publicly please email him & ask for his proofs then do it.
            .
            Take the video for what it is. Rohner sent the original demo video to McKubre over 6 months ago. Mike states clearly in the video excerpt of him (was added to the RohnerEngine web page last night) that what he saw occurring is impossible but it works. He is pretty clear about the oddity. He states in plain English that he has some ideas as to how it might be working but not ready to go public yet.
            .
            The only honest comment you can really make is you don’t accept that what Rohner showed was real & that is entirely your right to state (on the flimsiest of evidence).
            I am stating that because McKubre has endorsed it, I will be investigating further as the potential is really interesting if not spectacular.
            .
            Cheers DSM

    • John Milstone

      August 4, 2012 at 1:48 pm

      It shows Mike McKubre endorsing proof that the Noble Gas Papp concept works & the rather long video shows Tom Rohner doing a single cylinder demo of the process.

      I watched your video. That’s an hour of my life I’ll never get back. 🙁

      Remember, Joseph Newman (allegedly) had the endorsements of a NASA scientist, an astronaut and the Ray-O-Vac company. Does that convince you that his magnet motor was legitimate?

      The fact that Mike McKrube endorses this gadget only convinces me that he shouldn’t be trusted to judge any technology.

      • dsm

        August 5, 2012 at 12:15 am

        John
        .
        That was NOT my video ? 🙂
        .
        How did I come to own it ?
        .
        I was pointing out that from only a few days ago I heard Mike McKubre say “it is impossible but it works” that is an amazing statement from a high profile scientist and I now look forward to McKubre along with Bob Rohner (sorry I kept calling him Tom (who died))
        producing validation for what was shown in that video.
        .
        Cheers

        .
        DSM

        • Bettingman

          August 5, 2012 at 12:27 pm

          The scientific method implies that we start with the observations, theory must fit the observations, not the other way around. So in case we see something that should not be possible according to our current theories, we try to duplicate it to rule out an error. (like with the neutrino’s that were going faster then light). In case the observation stands, the theory is obviously wrong or not complete. That is how the world works. So with this thing we are in the fase that we should try to duplicate this.

  27. daniel maris

    August 4, 2012 at 12:56 am

    WARNING!!! – SCEPTICS MAY FIND THE FOLLOWING EXCERPT OFFENSIVE

    Q: Dear Andrea Rossi
    about the presentation in Zurich on September 8 and 9:
    “Test results of the 600 degree E-Cat, validation by third party company”
    Correct?
    Best regards
    Giuliano Bettini

    A:Dear Giuliano Bettini:
    We will explain briefly the highlights of the report ( whose complete version is 140 pages long) and the data that eventually will be published in a scientific magazine.
    Warm Regards.
    A.R.

    • Al Potenza

      August 4, 2012 at 1:15 am

      The elephant in the room: WHICH COMPANY OR UNIVERSITY OR GOVERNMENT LAB did the tests and what is their overall abstract or conclusion? Will they be interviewed about their findings? Unless they’re an obscure shill, which of course is likely, virtually every main line press source would want to talk to them.

      Why don’t people who actually get through to Rossi ask the right questions? Let’s see. Let me guess. Could Rossi’s idiotic JONP be censored by Rossi? Ya think?

      • daniel maris

        August 4, 2012 at 1:36 am

        I’m sure it’s censored.

        I don’t believe the mainstream press would necessarily get interested – NASA scientists have conducted LENR experiments and talked about it but that gets virtually no mainstream coverage.

    • Ivy Matt

      August 4, 2012 at 1:06 pm

      I don’t see anything to be offended by. I’m looking forward to reading the long version of the report, or at least the data that he will eventually publish in a scientific journal.

      Of course, I’m also still looking forward to hearing Rossi’s theory that he said he would explain after his demonstration last October, although I realize he never gave an exact date for when he would make his explanation.

      And I think there may be some here who are still waiting for Kullander’s detailed isotopic analysis of the E-Cat ash, which he promised by last Christmas.

      I guess the best way to approach promises like this is either not to raise your hopes too high, or to have a very short-term memory.

  28. daniel maris

    August 4, 2012 at 1:41 am

    There’s a lot happening in the world of LENR isn’t there? I think the sceptics hoped it would all die a slow death a few months ago…not to be, guys.

    If it’s going to die, you will have to drive a stake through the heart. I don’t see that yet (for me the stake through the heart would be proven scamming, a court case or similar).

    • dsm

      August 4, 2012 at 2:18 am

      Daniel
      .
      I still think you could curb your enthusiasm. No one has demoed a validated kilowatt LENR & the only lab demos are still in the milliwatts & watts.
      .
      The problem with both the Rossi & Defkalion claims of proofs remains that it is all Rossi says or DGT says not NASA or Uni of Credibility (ie Bologna, Uppsala etc) say.
      .
      Even the Papp demo Tom Rohner did needs scientific data to prove it categorically (that Noble gasses when plasmated can expand & contract). But as I was vainly trying to point out to Al P, some demos are merely informational, All seems hell bent on insisting that all demos must be full scientific validations to his standard but Al does have a very good point & that is that without at least one decent validation all the demos are purely informational & can’t be taken to prove anything.
      .
      DSM

    • Ivy Matt

      August 4, 2012 at 1:18 pm

      for me the stake through the heart would be proven scamming, a court case or similar

      So, the LENR researchers are all safe as long as neither Rossi nor Defkalion are convicted of anything shady? I’m sure they’re glad your standards of proof are so high.

  29. daniel maris

    August 4, 2012 at 2:10 am

    Is this the Fulvio Fabiani mentioned as giving a presentation on the control system of the 1MW E cat at the upcoming convention.

    http://it.linkedin.com/in/fulviofabiani

    He’s billed as from the Leonardo Corp.

    Is this the first time we’ve had another identifiable person from Rossi’s company come into the limelight? I’m not sure…I think I may have seen the name before.

    If so, it’s interesting as he appears to be billed as talking about a product that Rossi clearly claims is already on the market. And he is talking about the control system – which means in essence you are either part of the scam or you are for real,unless it’s such a convoluted scam that it can fool the guy dealing with the control system.

    Any thoughts?

    • dsm

      August 4, 2012 at 2:24 am

      Daniel
      Yet again, scam is not a black and white definition. It is a belief of some people based on the behavior of another. Some believe Rossi’s behavior is bad enough to warrant the title scammer. Others consider he is merely milking wages from gulible investors. Paul Moller did that for 40 years & is still doing it in China. Some people regard Moller as a scammer & I eventually came to that conclusion. But Paul Moller still has ringing praise on his web site for the Moller Skycar (that never flew & still hasn’t). That praise includes accolades from two NASA chief scientists & Dennis Bushnell is one (Dan Goldin the other).
      .
      Moller just keeps on keeping on & gullible investors keep funding his hobby. What a wonderful life.
      .
      At this point in time I put Rossi into this latter category. Having a ton of fun with new tech at other people’s expense. What a wonderful life.
      .
      We all have our views.
      .
      DSM

      • daniel maris

        August 4, 2012 at 2:31 am

        Sounds pretty black and white to me – sounds like you are calling Rossi a scammer i.e. not having what he claims to have.

        But my post was about his assistant engineer…or the guy who appears to be his assistant. Is that of no interest to you – that we have another name?

      • John Milstone

        August 4, 2012 at 1:42 pm

        Yet again, scam is not a black and white definition.

        I disagree. A scammer knows he is lying to his “customers”.

        I don’t know if Paul Moller is a con man or not. It depends on whether he has lied to his investors. There is nothing “impossible” about the Skycar, it’s just a very hard engineering problem. If Moller “sold” it on that basis, then he isn’t a scammer.

        However, if he claimed that he had Skycars that had been flying for months or years, but refused to show them to anyone (presumably because others would “steal” his idea), then he would clearly be a con man.

    • GreenWin

      August 4, 2012 at 5:22 am

      At what point does an honest man admit he is wrong?? Or does an honest man never hesitate to admit he is wrong?

      • Dsm

        August 4, 2012 at 11:52 am

        Is this the loudmouthed idiot who called Jim Dunn a liar & then when his nose was rubbed in his mistake was too gutless to admit his stupidity and preferred to restate his lie ?

        .
        Why yes.
        .
        The credibility of a Rossi devotee.
        .
        D

        • GreenWin

          August 5, 2012 at 7:09 am

          Infants whine when they don’t get their way:) Two more perps for the ISLAND OF GENERAL ZARCOFAGUS!

      • Ivy Matt

        August 4, 2012 at 1:33 pm

        You know, I wondered about that when you referred to Dr. Bussard as the hot fusion “program founder” after I’d already corrected you several times, and when you keep interpreting several of his statements about the tokamak (made while he was seeking funding for a competing concept) as referrring to “hot” fusion in general. I have also started to wonder where you get your ever-expanding hot fusion research funding numbers from. But by now I’ve almost decided that attempting to correct you is a futile effort.

  30. GreenWin

    August 4, 2012 at 2:22 am

    All this “unknown” science must be wildly depressing to dyed in wool skeptos. Just reading Al’s vehement response to this demo indicates a precipitous schism with reality. There ARE constructive ways to face these changes – broadening perspective and opening one’s mind.

    Then again for unfortunates, there’s Thorazine.

    • John Milstone

      August 4, 2012 at 1:53 pm

      All this “unknown” science must be wildly depressing to dyed in wool skeptos.

      On the contrary, all this “unknown” “science” that never turns out to be legitimate would be depressing to the True Believers, if they were capable of rational thought.

    • Ivy Matt

      August 4, 2012 at 2:10 pm

      Fortunately there’s enough actual science going on in the world around us that waiting around for Rossi to make some actual contribution to human knowledge is unnecessary.

      How’s that for a broad perspective? 😛

  31. Tony

    August 4, 2012 at 2:56 am

    OK. I’ve been drinking. Coors Light which hardly qualifies as beer, I know, but it works for me. I also know that only General will approve of this kind of path to enlightenment but I know why, now and and without question, why we keep coming back here and rehashing things and throttling each other about this.

    We are watching a zero sum game. We are either going to see the greatest revolution in the history of mankind or we are going to watch one man fail at a level that is almost Biblical in it’s proportions.

    You can’t watch science as we know it like this because it’s an analog kind of a thing – little ups and downs but the whole thing is either moving over the long term one way or the other. And it may take years to see it but that exceeds all of our attention spans.

    But this whole thing has only given us only two steps to worry about and with the involved parties promising action not on a geological scale but, like, yeserday, our two steps are crystal clear – one leads straight to Heaven and the other leads straight to Hell. (I’m actually not very religous but the beer, you know).

    It’s simply the World Cup or the Super Bowl. Only one step will be found to be true just like only one team can walk away with the prize and we debate these kind of right/wrong things endlessly. Maybe there was no “Hand of God” for Diego Marodona but it still comes up today – damn near 30 years after the fact. Well, with video replay we know the hand of God was actually there masking the eyes of the official closest official to Marodona but you get my point.

    The human drive to be on one side or another has been with us since the cavemen chose their sides between Kristen Stewart and Robert Pattinson. Most of them, from the cave paintings I’ve seen seem to indicate that they feel Robert was wronged.

    I need another beer and I may never post here again.

    But I’m right.

    Tony2

    • daniel maris

      August 4, 2012 at 3:13 am

      I think we are getting close to the climax. If Rossi is a scammer he’s seriously underestimated the effects of the internet on scams.

      We should know by the end of the year what it is we are dealing with here.

    • GreenWin

      August 4, 2012 at 5:01 am

      two steps are crystal clear – one leads straight to Heaven and the other leads straight to Hell. “

      Really Tone. The universe is far less linear than that. We’ll chalk it up to the Coors.

    • General Zaroff

      August 4, 2012 at 6:14 am

      Beer may well be a path to enlightenment, but Coors Light Tony? I thought only pregnant vegans drank that stuff as a dietary supplement. Shame on you Tony.

      • GreenWin

        August 4, 2012 at 6:49 am

        GZ – !!

  32. GreenWin

    August 4, 2012 at 5:18 am

    Good Morning global friends and skeptopaths. I bring good tidings. Our recent discovery of the ScribD page on suppression of science is like a veritable gold mine of candidates for “GENERALE SARCOFAGUS ISLAND” (a reality show about corruption in mainstream science.)

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/59043870/The-Suppression-of-Inconvenient-Facts-in-Physics

    There is SO much factual info in this site we have cut our casting staff in half! We now have an estimated 6 years of corrupt perps to throw overboard 2.5km from Sarcofagus Island. The scuttlebutt: Al Pretenza one of the very first to be over-throne – and early TVQ points to a Nielson of 30B viewers!! House cleaning AND ratings! Summer 2013 – the good, the bad-Al, and the ugly (dsm:) Be there.

    • CuriousChris

      August 4, 2012 at 7:27 am

      That’s it you have done it. You have proved the reason for Rossi’s incompetence is because he is secretly being paid to discredit his own invention. Wow I am glad you found the truth we can all move on now knowing the only reason LENR has failed is because its being suppressed.

      So if Rossi and Defkalion are being paid to discredit and suppress LENR then who are the real champions of LENR. Who actually has succeeded and has had their details suppressed into oblivion. Obviously none of the attendees at the various CF conferences because they must be plants as well.

      Its all so obvious now.

      TIC.

      • GreenWin

        August 4, 2012 at 7:54 am

        @Chris, it seems all your psi-psyche WF, training has left you stranded with the single adolescent retort, “Conspiracy theorist!”

        Reminds me of the pathetic attempt by Governor Symington in 1997 to ridicule the “Phoenix Lights” as an alien conspiracy. But oh darn! turned out he was LYING TO THE PUBLIC. Imagine a puppet Governor lying? Humiliated and guilt ridden, the former governor came forward ten years later and admitted his asinine behavior:

        http://www.fifesymington.com/thelights.html

        FAIL Chris.

        • CuriousChris

          August 4, 2012 at 12:01 pm

          Your first sentence doesn’t make any sense but I’ll assume the following…

          In defending your conspiracy theory you are calling me a conspiratorialist? Seriously lacking some logic there are you not.

          So then please explain your conspiracy claims and how they pertain to Rossi? Please make sense of it all for me. If as you say that the evidence is being suppressed why have we even heard about Rossi. Why are you so intent on believing him? Surely if there is a conspiracy to suppress this then Rossi would not be able to publicise his so called invention.

          Please before making conspiracy claims think it through.

          • Ivy Matt

            August 4, 2012 at 2:20 pm

            His first sentence indeed doesn’t make any sense, but I believe he is accusing you not of being a conspiratorialist, but of using that adolescent tactic of calling a conspiracy theorist a “conspiracy theorist”.

          • GreenWin

            August 5, 2012 at 7:46 am

            BZZZZZ. Both wrong. I am simply delighted to have found a good source of perp candidates for “Island of Generale Zarcofagus!” With so much of old school science wallowing in crime – we have a deep pool of talent!

    • AB

      August 4, 2012 at 9:04 am

      A good read, especially for those who insist that skeptics have never done any harm.

  33. Jami

    August 4, 2012 at 8:57 am

    Interesting. So now McKubre has put his interpretations of his own experiments into proper perspective. LENR as a whole seems to finally get where it belongs. Feng Shui, perpetual motion machine conferences, fire-walking, homeopathy… just another piece of crap on the esoterik dung pile.

  34. Dsm

    August 4, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    A prediction about Andrea Rossi.
    .
    Rossi is under incredible pressure to get some validation. Too many people are rubbing his nose in the well documented times he set up then walked away from validation by recognised authorities.
    .
    He also has many agents who have passed over many times $100,000s euros for rights to sell a product that doesn’t exist (if anyone has evidence to the contrary please present it).
    .
    My prediction is Rossi is about to publish ‘certification’ by a tame organisation who have no credibility in the scientific world. But his devotees will be delighted and his agents placated and it may take 6 months before the furore about the fake validation gets any clarity.
    .
    If I am proved to be wrong I will eat my hat. Publicly.

    .
    DSM
    .
    The charade rolls on.

    • Methusela

      August 4, 2012 at 12:24 pm

      Excellent.

      Could you please post a URL and GMT based time for your hat eating exhibition?

      I look forward to it immensely 🙂

      • Mahron - A4 B2

        August 4, 2012 at 1:25 pm

        He needs to get the hat-eating certification first. Those are difficult to get.

      • Methusela

        August 4, 2012 at 3:02 pm

        @M:

        I do hope he publishes results of these certifications as soon as he gets them.

        Is Australian hat-eating certification different to the rest of the world?

        • Mahron - A4 B2

          August 4, 2012 at 3:15 pm

          Must stricter regulations down under. Had eating is not something to fuck with, it can be dangerous.

      • dsm

        August 5, 2012 at 1:14 am

        If you agree to eat your hat when Rossi fails to get validation/certification acceptable outside of his fan club 🙂
        .
        D
        .
        (….. waiting …….)

        • Methusela

          August 5, 2012 at 7:23 am

          Only if I can boil it first.

          Sadly, I would have to use a conventional boiler… but, for your hat eating (if you require your chapeau softening) I think it appropriate that you use a LENR powered one 🙂

    • Bettingman

      August 4, 2012 at 1:43 pm

      DSM,
      Wouldn’t make more sense for him to claim that the certifying institution would fear the possible effects of long term use/exposure and would need a long term study to verify this? Whit a nuclear reaction that is believable and he would not have to find a tame organisation, he can just say it.

      • DvH

        August 4, 2012 at 2:29 pm

        the certification: if things were real, AR would/should spent much more effort in making the certifiers happy than for his 1000’C thing.
        winter season is not too far away and its quite a difference if he (AR) has the home-ecat thing on the market in october ’12 instead of april ’13.

        but if all is just vapourware than blogging on the veranda is a perfect way to spend the day…

        • John Milstone

          August 4, 2012 at 5:12 pm

          Rossi claimed about a year ago that he had CE certification on the “shipping container” E-Cat.

          I wonder what kind of independent verification there ought to be to support or refute this claim?

    • DvH

      August 4, 2012 at 2:12 pm

      i have my doubts that AR has many agents who paid something. when they have a license-deal they should starting advertising/marketing asap – what are they waiting for?
      the only one who became visible so far is the australian zen-guru.
      the italian one is a little shy.
      the swiss folks run their own show – i just cannot imagine that one xxxx-artist pays lots of money to another xxxx-artist – they probably have another kinf of collaboration agreement.

    • dsm

      August 5, 2012 at 1:16 am

      In the original post I said both validation & ‘certification’ – many replies are only mentioning certification. That is a lesser achievement than validation.
      .
      So pls note it is validation/certification.

      .

      Cheers

      .
      DSM 🙂

  35. Jami

    August 4, 2012 at 5:10 pm

    “My prediction is Rossi is about to publish ‘certification’ by a tame organisation who have no credibility in the scientific world.”

    He wouldn’t have to. I’m sure he could have his ecat certified by TÜV or UL or whoever in a few weeks and with flying colours. Making an electrically powered heater that gets a certification isn’t all that hard. Problem is, of course, that his believers will think such a certification actually verifies his technology – when all it normally does is certifying that its safe to operate and doesn’t violate regulations. Power specifications will be tricky – but there’s an easy way around it. He can specify output as, say, 5kW and input as 5kW. Nobody who still believes he’s got something will care. He just has to claim the 5kW input are a new quick-heating function which will only be required in short bursts but raises COP to 6.5 – and everybody will be happy.

    • Frank

      August 4, 2012 at 5:54 pm

      Correct, it’s not a big deal to get a CE label for a tea-kettle.

      And if Rossi would really have what he claims (a revolutionary ‘free energy’ device), then he would just have to prove it once to appropriate scientific institutions, and he wouldn’t have to worry about the time-frame for certification any longer, because millions of ordinary people would demand from UL to work in shifts 7 days a week to get the certification done asap.

      However, the ‘true believers’ will accept the certification issue as a reason why there is no home e-cat on the market for much longer time.
      Same as they don’t wonder why there is still no 1MW plant available for public inspection, although – according Rossi – he is on the market since Oct. last year, and the delivery time is only about 3 months.

  36. John Milstone

    August 4, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    Correct, it’s not a big deal to get a CE label for a tea-kettle.

    But has he even done this?

    I would think that a CE certification would generate some publicly-accesssble documentation. Has anyone actually looked to see if such documentation exists?

    If the documentation that should be there is missing, that would be specific evidence that Rossi was lying about it.

    I don’t know anything about CE certification, but I do know something about U.L. They require working devices, manufactured using the same materials and techniques as the production version. If Rossi actually submitted his gadget to U.L., that would be compelling evidence that his device was real (or at least that he truly believed that it was real). That was why his claims of having submitted devices to U.L. were significant, and why his admission to the Florida authorities that he had not done so was also significant.

    • Frank

      August 4, 2012 at 8:43 pm

      Actually a CE label (certificate) can even be done by an manufacturer himself – that’s then called ‘self-declaration’
      By attaching a CE lable on his product, a manufacturer declares, at his sole responsibility, conformity with all of the legal requirements (enforced by the EU) for that product.
      Only when stipulated in the EU-directives applicable for that particular product (e.g medical device), then an authorized 3rd party (notified body) must get involved.
      More information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking

      So, in case Rossi would claim that he has his 1MW container CE-labelled, this wouldn’t mean much. – Because as long as he doesn’t ‘bring to the market’ any 1MW plant inside the EU, nobody will verify the validity of that label.

  37. Al Potenza

    August 4, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    Steorn’s “independent test” which had been promised for years turned out to be two temperature curves acquired in unknown ways on undefined apparatus by an undetermined “private company”. It was absolutely without value. And six years after announcement, no person outside the company has ever reported seeing a working Orbo properly tested.

    I suspect Rossi’s independent test will be by one his shills. It will not be by a well known and trusted university department, national lab, or a respected organization like consumer reports. And Rossi will have some canned tired excuse about the risks of snakes and clowns and the patent not being granted and the competition being out to get him. Can his credibility get worse? Maybe.

  38. Dale G. Basgall

    August 4, 2012 at 9:47 pm

    What happened to the old method of product testing, give it to several people and ask them to use it for awhile.

    • Al Potenza

      August 4, 2012 at 9:52 pm

      Depends on how dangerous the product can be. I’d think a FUSION REACTOR could bite you.

    • dsm

      August 5, 2012 at 12:18 am

      Dale,
      .
      Doesn’t Rossi claim he sold 13 1 MW eCat plants ? (or was that 2) I get confused about his numbers as they seem to keep changing up and down.
      .
      So Rossi may claim he is having them tested 🙂
      .
      DSM

  39. Tony

    August 4, 2012 at 10:04 pm

    AP,

    Of course it can.

    From the JoNP – one week after the September Convention.

    (This contradicts my earlier psychic prediction that there would be no convention. However, in order to make this post, the convention must have already happened. I think.)

    Dear Inge Rossi;

    Can it be true? Can it be as you said at the convention? The ecat can actually now be woven into fabric so that there really is no need any more for what we have seen up to this point? Your nano-scale breakthoughs allow the clothing itself to be powered to keep us warm? E-CatSuits! Meeeoooowww!!!!!

    Can the effect be reversed – air conditioned clothing in the summer?

    Breathlessly (but much warmer) waiting,

    Tony2

    Tony2,

    1. Yes

    2. Yes

    Regards,

    AR

    • Al Potenza

      August 4, 2012 at 10:46 pm

      Your psychic powers are defective. It’s WARM regards.

    • Mahron - A4 B2

      August 4, 2012 at 11:01 pm

      Fake.

      • Al Potenza

        August 4, 2012 at 11:11 pm

        Fake? You mean Rossi’s ecat?

        • Methusela

          August 5, 2012 at 7:30 am

          No, DSM’s hat eating.

          It would be more appropriate were he to barbecue it. I think 600 degC is more than enough 😉

          Perhaps Milstone, Potenza, and Newman would like to contribute cooking advice, or even just watch so they can learn how to do it themselves?

          Assuming that they’re capable of learning anything new 😉

  40. GreenWin

    August 5, 2012 at 7:41 am

    A veritable cornucopia of skeptopaths and myopic scientists coming to the fore! Old school Journal Editors and their puppet masters will be among the first marched to the People’s Tribunal. Most are out of shape and will not likely make the 2.5km swim through shark-infested waters. On the upside, this is good news for sponsors of Island of Generale Zarcofagus.

    Vegas Sports Book has inquired about online odds for perp survival. This means a valuable new source of revenue. The early line is Pretenza eaten before marker one. Odds of his actually making the Island are 500:1. Healthier scientists and skeps