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eCat, The Military, Global Finance And Politics

June 21, 2012

We optimists like to bathe in the possibility for positive change. We dream of a better eCat-driven world where oil-wars are a thing of the past, abundant clean energy cures the planet and the poor of the world are propelled to prosperity. We wait in hope that our savior has come.

And we wait.

In the spaces of the day where hope lives, I like to imagine a military organization smart enough to buy the first eCat and then order more. Since October last year, the mystery customer has known without doubt that everything is about to change. Privileged members know that the gears of finance will soon accelerate, that theater-feeding supply lines will reshape themselves, that it makes no sense for their country to build another nuclear power station or long-distance power line, that their nation is in the enviable position of being at the head of the queue for the new order.

It is important to stress that – for the people in question – we are no longer talking about science and what-ifs but absolute proof of a working, scalable, clean, safe, inexpensive, inexhaustible, compact replacement for oil that will do all of the above and build a road to the stars. We also know that – being a rank based organization – the boss has been informed.

And his boss.

In the story I tell myself, I find no logical scenario where that country’s president or prime minister does not now know the truth of the eCat and probably has for the last eight months. Here is a clue to figuring out which nation is the lucky winner. Italy? The USA? Greece? A major strategic, top-level, decision that has not taken this gem into account would indicate a lack of knowledge. If any should swing towards building more nuclear power plants, we can rule them out. A plan to fill the deserts with mirrors or the hills with spinning blades on a massive scale or a treaty signed that makes no sense would be the smoking gun that tells us that they have not been chosen.

My crystal ball is cloudy. The optimist refuses to die. Big ships are slow to manoeuvre, the arms of government semi-autonomous. The lucky leader is playing the long game, insider trading for the changes to come.

In that story, the boss knows and in another the eCat does not exist. We are all detectives.

Posted by on June 21, 2012. Filed under Politics,Rossi. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

358 Responses to eCat, The Military, Global Finance And Politics

  1. Harry Perini

    June 25, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    An MSNBC story about the X-35B revealed that it was built by NASA in 2004 then passed onto the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). There have been internet rumors that DARPA is interested in cold fusion and in Andrea Rossi’s ecat device. An unsubstantiated rumor even claimed that DARPA had purchased Rossi’s 1 Megawatt Ecat generator last year. The X-35B was was passed onto the Air Force after spending sometime in DARPA’s hands.

    If NASA and the Air Force really have such a device don’t expect it to stay secret for long. My guess is that they’ll quickly reveal it to the public. Something else the X-37B was apparently built by Boeing. Boeing’s business is building airliners so LENR powered space plane airliners could be flying our skies and perhaps taking us to the moon in the near future.

    It looks like we live in interesting and exciting times folks. I wonder what NASA’s going to spring on us next.

  2. General Zaroff

    June 25, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    With all of the exciting progress on the Rossi and Defkalion fronts I had almost forgotten that there was a school for the deluded in the race.

    • daniel maris

      June 25, 2012 at 11:56 pm

      There are quite a few runners in this race – don’t forget the government organisation NASA that has a filed patent application for an LENR device. I’m surprised you forget that two-bit outfit!

  3. spacegoat

    June 25, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    Reply to J Newman:
    “Marxism, that really sounds intriguing.” Well I hope you enjoy the suffocating control and policing of thought that “AGM policies” will bring.

    “.. LENR faith and AGW denial require one to arbitrarily reject the bulk of scientific opinion”

    Raising the emotional tone with “faith” and “denial” does not win arguments. I have always talked in terms of balance of probabilities and risk.

    Scientific opinion is not science. Science is data + mathematics.

    • JNewman

      June 25, 2012 at 6:24 pm

      Yes indeed, it is a good idea to avoid emotional language in such debates. You know, like “suffocating control and policing of thought”.

      As for LENR faith, until people start showing actual data with enough experimental detail provided to make a rational judgement about it, that is all there is to LENR: faith.

  4. AB

    June 25, 2012 at 6:10 pm

    Human translations of the Abundo letters on 22passi. I left out parts that were mere courtesy or not important to reduce the amount of work:

    One group in Ostia is building a copy of the reactor to replicate the tests.

    [ZZZ] has built a copy and is starting testing.

    At [omitted] of Rome, department of [omitted], we have agreed to perform the measurements and replications in their (lab).

    To make the phrase comprehensible I had to add (lab) because that’s what they mean. Most likely they’re talking about an university in Rome.

    [XXX] is doing a great job, he’s building a device that will turn the tables as far as the measuring problem goes. It will probably also increase the yield because it allows us to synchronize the conduction of the phenomenon based on the exact needs of the plasma.

    We have almost prepared our post-Pirelli lab and were not idle in the meantime: besides building two calibration reactors (one with resistor, the other with a carbon cathode) we are supported by a group of specialists that will be unleashed as soon as the lab is ready.

    • Shane D.

      June 25, 2012 at 6:26 pm

      Taking a wag at the omitted parts, I’d say that “ZZZ” is NASA, “At (omitted) of Rome, department of (omitted) lab” is the Univeristy of Rome Particle Physics Department, “XXX” is who knows.

      Looks like LENR is taking another step forward, but then again I am a believer and can make myself believe almost anything.

      • AB

        June 25, 2012 at 6:46 pm

        ZZZ is more likely a privately owned Italian company. Notice how quickly they are proceeding. Plus the NASA already has their LENR project, until the Athanor reactor is confirmed as working it seems unlikely they would start a parallel project.

  5. AB

    June 25, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    Someone on 22passi pointed out this:

    June 25th, 2012 at 2:10 AM
    Egr. Ing. Rossi,
    We are interested to distributed generation for small communities.

    I would like to know if the plant is ready for sale and if I may contact you for a direct approach.

    Michele Procida

    Andrea Rossi
    June 25th, 2012 at 8:00 AM

    Dear Michele:
    For commercial issues in Italy, please contact

    Aldo Proia is project manager for Energaya srl based in Bologna:

    Curiously a facebook page shows a man inside a 1 MW ecat container:

  6. General Zaroff

    June 25, 2012 at 9:58 pm

    Since my shocking discovery that spacegoat is pro-climate change, I have become very curious about some things people believe around here. I know JNewman has asked similar questions, but please humour me with a response if you have time. Questions:

    1. Is the military industrial complex a left-wing Marxist thing or a right-wing fascist thing?

    2. Is climate change/global warming real, or a money-grab for scientists?. If it is the latter, is the oil industry the good guy or the bad guy?

    3. Were events such as Pearl Harbour, 9/11, and the recent shooting down of a Turkish jet false flag operations?

    4. Were the moon landings a hoax?

    Thank you for your responses, I promise to keep all answers confidential.

    • GreenWin

      June 25, 2012 at 10:27 pm

      Item #3 you leave out Gulf of Tonkin, clearly indicating you Generale, con-cieved and engineered this heinous deception.

    • Dale G. Basgall

      June 25, 2012 at 11:40 pm

      General again a mind stretch but a good one, the foundation of belief is always good to establish but now I am confused, there are choices to make.

      After looking all those up for #1 as to be literally correct whith those definitions it seems the military industrial complex is all of the above or D.

      #2 Global warming is evident as fact, look at all the fires in Colorado, Utah, and many other places and it’s hot underneath the crust of the earth so logically that should be translated into the atmosphere.

      #3 A question I would not want to answer on the intranet living in the US, but I don’t know for sure facts that would support a “false flag operation”, I stand moot on this one.

      #4 Again I have no basis to judge without more facts, the astronauts said they did it so I will take that as fact until it is factually disproven.

      General what are the odds that all living people could actually believe in one thing like in syncronicity, no matter what that one thing is even if it appeared in physical form 50 feet from their grasp?

      Like 10 people setting in a circular radius within a building and all are asked to look out of one specific window at the same time and describe what they saw in writing. How many interpretaions of what is actually reality outside the room would be described? So even if we are all looking at the same picture, everyone would see what they describe and relating to their position of viewpoint.

      There is hope but logically it seems like we will always be separated by our positions in physical space. I would consider myself a rebel and left wing, I like the Marxism logic and my time is no more valuable than anyone elses, unless I demand it. Time is time no matter how and where you look at it from and all have an undetermined amount of it left.

      • CuriousChris

        June 26, 2012 at 6:42 am

        “#4 Again I have no basis to judge without more facts, the astronauts said they did it so I will take that as fact until it is factually disproven.”

        I am just so grateful that the passing Vulcans left mirrors on the lunar surface so we could further our science in the effort to create the Warp Drive.

        Without their help we would not have been able to bounce lasers off the moon while testing Einsteins theories over the last 40 years. Sadly we need the generous Vulcans to return to give them a bit of a polish up.

        • JNewman

          June 26, 2012 at 2:42 pm

          Ironically, moon landing denial is in fact an excellent example of pathological skepticism. There really is such a thing, after all. On the other hand, using such terminology for describing questioning something as tenuously established as LENR is simply a desperate strategy to counteract factual arguments with name calling.

          • CuriousChris

            June 27, 2012 at 7:00 am

            In my experience moon landing denial is perpetrated by the “pathological believers”.
            Why? because their belief system doesn’t include scientific facts. For example in my experience, lunar landing skeptics tend to also believe in things like ufo’s, chemtrails and ecats. Because they don’t draw their conclusions on reason and logic but upon fear and hope.

            (hmmm sounds like the Vulcans have the right idea Jim)

            I personally don’t know of any, lets say, ecat sceptic who also believes the lunar landings were faked. I am happy to be proven wrong though.

    • Quax

      June 26, 2012 at 4:24 am

      General, I think I may come out of my self-imposed exile to incorporate your questions into a new LENR community survey.

      • General Zaroff

        June 26, 2012 at 5:12 am

        Hi Quax,

        Please do make the survey, I would very much like to know the results. I think belief in LENR may be strongly correlated with these other beliefs.

        By the way, how are your attempts at flight coming along?

        • Quax

          June 27, 2012 at 6:39 am

          I am currently working on a more aerodynamic helmet design. I found without the latter I am too much slacking off – lying unconscious on the floor after each flight attempt is just an unjustifiable waste of time.

          I am certain I am very close to a break-through. I repeatable achieve a kind of flight until impact. It is obvious I just need to tweak the methodology a bit and free unaided human flight will be achieved.

    • JKW

      June 26, 2012 at 12:45 pm

      1. Both
      2. It’s real, but don’t panic – ecat is going to change everything. New ice age is coming soon.
      3. I don’t know. There was nothing in JoNP about it.
      4. Of course. NASA did not have LENR powered spacecraft back then.

    • Ivy Matt

      June 27, 2012 at 4:07 pm

      1) The military industrial complex is a right-wing Marxist thing. The rest of the Executive branch is a left-wing fascist thing.

      2) Yes.

      3) I have no knowledge of that.

      4) Yes. And so were Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11, Viking 1, Viking 2, Voyager 1, Voyager 2, Space Shuttle missions STS-1 through STS-135, Deep Space 1, Cassini–Huygens, Mars Pathfinder, the Mars Exploration Rover Mission, Kepler….

  7. GreenWin

    June 25, 2012 at 10:21 pm

    It’s comforting to see scientists using protective outer wear when conducting hot fusion research:

    • JKW

      June 26, 2012 at 12:04 am

      GreenWin, I don’t know about hot fusion scientists, but I do hope the TeraWatt Corporation’s reputable board of directors had their protective underwear on when their magnetic motors wiped the company out of existence.

  8. GreenWin

    June 26, 2012 at 3:41 am

    “Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.” Napoleon Bonaparte

    • General Zaroff

      June 26, 2012 at 5:33 am

      A very nice quote GreenWin, I admire Napoleon. I am particularly touched by the quote because malice and incompetence are two of my strongest suits. But which of these two traits should we attribute to the numerous free-energy players who continue to withhold their working solutions to the energy crisis?

    • JKW

      June 26, 2012 at 12:18 pm

      Glad to see the boys are OK. Nice underwear.

    • Ivy Matt

      June 27, 2012 at 4:13 pm

      Something to keep in mind when weaving conspiracy theories.

  9. dsm

    June 26, 2012 at 3:51 am

    It would astound me that the answers aren’t self evident 🙂
    1. Is the military industrial complex a left-wing Marxist thing or a right-wing fascist thing?
    Ans: Profit making boys club operating in a global super power.
    2. Is climate change/global warming real, or a money-grab for scientists?. If it is the latter, is the oil industry the good guy or the bad guy?
    Ans: Planet gets hot, planet gets cold, planet gets hot, planet gets cold … (courtesy of Homer Simpson). Oil companies get hot & cold too!.
    3. Were events such as Pearl Harbour, 9/11, and the recent shooting down of a Turkish jet false flag operations?
    Ans: If I were prez, I might have approved them too 🙂
    4. Were the moon landings a hoax?
    Ans: Not if you were one of those who went there.

    • spacegoat

      June 26, 2012 at 5:42 am

      Outside our own professions, valid evidence is difficult to find and vested interests obfuscate on any given subject.

      No doubt this link will evince howls of derision from ecatnews science establishment posters and posts about “mainstream scientific opinion”.

      But just as with LENR, the truth lies with mathematics and data, not with opinion, no matter how numerous the body.

      In order to criticize science, with every assertion, the mathematics and data needs weighing with margins of error, and statistical significance.

      We should have the good sense to remain silent unless we are ready and qualified to perform the study ourselves, which is the only option in this world of vested interest at all levels.

      Referring to the top the subject for vested interests:

      Errors should be forwarded to the authors:

      Opinion is not science.

      • Dale G. Basgall

        June 26, 2012 at 6:33 am

        spacegoat your paragraph “But just as with LENR, the truth lies with mathematics and data, not with opinion, no matter how numerous the body.”

        There are also mechanical issues involved that would change the outcome or success of LENR experiments and mostly there has to be a means to apply the math and the data. Maybe Mr. Rossi did it that way, built the stuff, got a reaction, then did the math.

        The thing is nothing happens without a machinist involved, not even the simplest things like a label on a bottle, a machinist had to build something first. So what came first the fuel? or the reactor?

        • JKW

          June 26, 2012 at 1:02 pm

          Nonsense, Dale. Rossi doesn’t need machinists. The secret ecat factory is robotized.

        • Al Potenza

          June 26, 2012 at 4:48 pm

          If you look at the first ecats, they look like fugitives from a scrap heap for corroded household plumbing supplies. Not much engineering there. They look as if they are a pair of copper tubes with a pair of electrical heaters and little else.

          • JKW

            June 27, 2012 at 12:36 am

            You forgot about the tinfoil wrap, Al.
            It serves a critical function of stopping rouge gamma rays which fail to thermalize in the lead shield, when it melts away while the ecat reaches 600 deg C.

      • dsm

        June 26, 2012 at 8:44 am

        Spacegoat my good friend, did you actually read my posted Ans: or did you post off mine based on the topic ?
        Just wondering 🙂 🙂 🙂
        Cheers DSM

  10. Dale G. Basgall

    June 26, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    After reading this article this am I wonder where that puts LENR in our households. It appears the electric vehicle is not doing to well in the USA.

    So even “if” or “when” LENR is perfected this article reads on the reasons a simple automobile running on electricity get’s expensive and possibly deleted from the shelves so to speak, and also relates to the product LENR in a way that appears it may not be accepted in the US for the general public.

    • Al Potenza

      June 26, 2012 at 4:50 pm

      Are you saying nobody wants nearly free power? That’s just silly.

      The reason purely electric cars don’t do well in the US is that driving distances are long and nobody wants to wait for them to recharge before continuing a journey. And that’s if you can find a place to recharge because little infrastructure is in place. On the other hand, Americans are buying hybrids like children buy candy.

      • daniel maris

        June 26, 2012 at 7:14 pm

        Have you heard about electric roads, being developed by Utah State University:

        I think this is the solution.

        For longer journeys your power is replenished on primary roads through wireless charging. For shorter journeys, you cna use your battery charged at home, or swapped at a battery charging station.

        Put it all together and I think it is a solution.

        • Dale G. Basgall

          June 26, 2012 at 8:45 pm

          daniel the road concept in your link is going down a good path so to speak but in the paving industry there is a cloth used that used to be called petromat. The existing roadway gets a special kind of oil on it and when it gets tacky they lay down this petromat to bond an old layer to a new layer of black top.

          Everyone knows exactly how hot a black top roadway can get in the sunlight, so I was operating an asphalt plant in 1989 and layed some old lengths of thermocouple wiring into the petromat with the ends sticking out the side of the pad and hooked them together and placed 2″deep blactop pavement on top. They generated electricity most of the day when the sun was out, but the Highway Department just couldn’t see the need. So I like your link it reminds me of the roadways we anticipated could produce DC current all day the entire length of the roads that pass through large cities.

          I hope this time is right for them to go forward with things like that or even something that generated DC current after it has been run over by a car on the highway.

  11. GreenWin

    June 26, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    Dale, as Al points out, hybrids sell VERY well. They are cars with electric motors and batteries, some like PHEVs drive moderate all electric range.

    Hybrids are the consumer increment to EVs – which will dip as oil is shorted, and rise on LENR news.

    • General Zaroff

      June 26, 2012 at 7:48 pm

      Did anyone else ever notice the beautiful rainbow patterns that arise when you spill gasoline into fresh water? When LENR bursts onto the market and the price of oil plummets I plan to share this mysterious phenomenon with everyone who lives downriver from me.

      • AB

        June 26, 2012 at 8:05 pm

        Notice how this user attempts to drag legitimate and normal conversation down by posting random stupidities. Given the sheer amount of “contributions”, this behavior is indistinguishable from an organized effort in disrupting conversations on the topic of LENR and the ecat.

        • JKW

          June 26, 2012 at 8:31 pm

          AB, did you ever stop by those greasy pools and wonder what makes the rainbows. No? OK

        • General Zaroff

          June 26, 2012 at 11:18 pm

          Forgive me AB. I was under the impression that believers in LENR/ecats might also believe in leprechauns with pots of coins, and as such, would appreciate a rainbow now and then.

          In all seriousness, if you are the victim of a maniac dumping toxic materials in the environment then I sincerely apologize. I know Rossi has been forgiven for that litle Petroldragon fiasco, so I hope one day you can find it in your heart to forgive me.

          • GreenWin

            June 27, 2012 at 1:08 am

            I… I’m a bit overwhelmed. I have been appointed to award ecatnews’ own Generale Zarakoff an Honorary Membership here:


            The Generale is not the first political despot to be awarded this honor but he is the most recent. Other recipients include Manuel Noriega, Hermann Wilhelm Göring, Ms. Cruella De Vil, Roscoe “Fatty” Arbuckle, and Bishop Irenaeus of Lyon.

            CONGRATULATIONS Generale. Well done!

          • General Zaroff

            June 27, 2012 at 3:10 am

            Thank you GreenWin, but flattery will get you nowhere.

      • daniel maris

        June 26, 2012 at 8:56 pm


        Whilst your community-spirited wish to share these pleasing kaleidoscopes with the rest of humanity downriver is commendable, I beg you to consider your age.

        At your time of life you should be thinking of keeping warm. Before you invest in that new LENR device (which might be a tad more expensive than you optimistically expect), why not make the most of it: throw some gasoline on the open fire or experiment with it in the kitchen – you don’t want to be worrying about energy bills in the autumn of your years.

        • JKW

          June 26, 2012 at 11:13 pm

          Daniel, although your research ideas seem to be refreshing, there is nothing particularly new in them. I did try the gasoline and bonfire experiment once. All I can say is that it was uplifting for a moment. Some excess heat was generated, too. The best part, my girlfriend loved my new hairstyle.

  12. Dale G. Basgall

    June 26, 2012 at 9:00 pm

    This just came on suppressed inventions it’s got the room temp fusion and 9 other energy inventions.

  13. buffalo

    June 26, 2012 at 10:29 pm

    no no kids.what we want is hydrogen gas powered cars to replace gasoline.we dont want flimsy expensive unpredictable low energy density batteries to take to the u trust ur celfone battery?we want a hydrogen fuel economy.clean,efficient,cheap,abundant til the end of

    • daniel maris

      June 26, 2012 at 11:14 pm

      What’s wrong with electric roads which have already been produced by Utah State University? – to deliver wireless charging on primary roads. Batteries are fine for local journeys and you can have battery changing stations where you change batteries more quickly then it takes to fill up the tank with gas/petrol.

      Hydrogen gas is a difficult fuel to manage.

    • JKW

      June 26, 2012 at 11:51 pm

      Who exactly is “we”? I’m fine with my golf cart.

  14. GreenWin

    June 27, 2012 at 12:16 am

    A study by registered skeptics (Le Sqeptique du Patetique) determined electric roads to be highly dangerous for pedestrians, but excellent for impromptu barbeques.

    BTW, you guys should check out the dialog with “Dave from NJ” over on the other site. Better than TV or kittens in a sack. He’s hilarious!

    • JNewman

      June 27, 2012 at 1:33 am

      Wow, I made the mistake of going over to that site. Dave is hilarious? Dave is pushing on a rope. That place is a loony bin filled with Rossi worshippers lacking even the slightest hint of critical reasoning. I can’t imagine why this Dave guy is wasting his time arguing with those people. But for those who really really want to believe, I highly recommend the place. If you listen to enough people who accept every word from Rossi as gospel, maybe you too will reach their state of bliss.

      • Dsm

        June 27, 2012 at 1:44 am

        Same reaction from me 🙁
        You nailed it well.


      • JKW

        June 27, 2012 at 2:17 am

        I am not surprised. The admin of that site likes his faithful herd and protects it from bad wolves and black sheep that occasionally emerge from the herd. I wasted a few posts there until I got banned because I dared to point out a couple of contradictions in Rossi’s JONP rants.
        An interesting example: A couple of months ago Frank (adimin) published his interview with Rossi, where they joyfully chatted about coupling an ecat with a “Sterling” engine (Allan’s invention?)
        Next day the post was edited, “Sterling” was promptly changed to “Stirling”. A couple of audio files with the interview disappeared. Someone was banned for asking for why the links were broken.
        Congrats GreenWin and georgehants for not just enduring, but active participation there.

    • GreenWin

      June 27, 2012 at 2:11 am

      Fun to watch an ignorant guy like “Dave from NJ” get schooled;) Then again, he’s from NJ.

      • JNewman

        June 27, 2012 at 2:20 am

        Oh yes. Dave is getting quite the education. Kind of like a full semester’s worth of abnormal psychology in a couple of days. Invaluable experience.

      • General Zaroff

        June 27, 2012 at 3:11 am

        I have never posted over there, and only skimmed it once or twice. What do you think GreenWin, should General Zaroff pay a visit to e-catworld?

        • Frank

          June 27, 2012 at 6:24 am

          It seems that the admin there consider your announcement as a serious threat and has prepared new guidelines for commenting (and moderation/censorship) on his blog.

          .. but the reason for his new guidelines could also be that he got ‘pissed of’ by some ‘true believers’ and odd characters like GreenWin, georgehants who etc. who cause that the this blog becomes the home (madhouse?) for people with quite ‘strange minds and believes’ only.

  15. General Zaroff

    June 27, 2012 at 3:04 am

    Hello comrades,

    AB has shamed me by implying that my “contributions” are of little value in this LENR discussion. Let me try to redeem myself. I would like to figure out some details of the robotized factory that will produce 1 million ecats per year. Maybe by doing so we can work together and find the factory. Please correct any mistakes I make.

    Here are my general assumptions:
    * The ecat consists of a core reactor, surrounded by lead. Heat is generated when gamma rays, emitted from the reaction, are absorbed by the lead shell. The emitted gamma rays are around 511 keV (I think Rossi said this).

    * gamma rays are not detected outside of the lead shielding.

    * radiation from the reaction is isotropic, so we need a spherical shell of lead shielding. I will also assume the reactor chamber is spherical. This is certainly not exactly true but it is a good first approximation.

    I think most people agree that is roughly how the ecat operates, but it is not enough to really calculate anything. We need some more specific assumptions and data:

    1. The inner reactor chamber is a sphere of radius 3cm (pretty small I guess).

    2. Lead has a density of 11.3 g/cm^3 (see wikipedia).

    3. The half value layer (HVL) for lead absorbing gamma rays around 511 keV is about 1 cm. See the wikipedia page on gamma rays, there is a plot in
    log-log scale. It is hard to read off the numbers exactly, but 1 is about right.

    4. 99.9% of the gamma ray intensity is reduced by absorption in the lead shielding. If this were not so, you would detect them outside the ecat and Rossi says that doesn’t happen.

    Now for some calculations. Since radiation intensity decays like:
    I = I0*2^(-d/HVL),
    where d is the distance traveled through the medium, we can take logarithms and find that to remove 99.9% of the radiation we need d = 9.97 cm (roughly). Therefore the total volume of the ecat shielding is:
    V = 4*pi/3*((d+3)^3-3^3) = roughly 9013 cm^3.

    Now, with the density of lead being 11.3 g/cm^3, we can estimate that the mass in lead shielding for one ecat is around 101 kg.

    This means that for Rossi to produce 1 million ecats, he must acquire 101 million kg of lead. The total volume of lead, were he to store it all at once, would occupy a little over 9000 cubic meters, which he could store in a big block about 20.8 meters per side.

    This is not a small amount of lead. If semi-trailers were used to carry it in, and each truck could carry 25,000 kg, you would still need 4076 trucks. So, in that first year of operation, at least 11 loads of lead must arrive per day, including weekends.

    Maybe we should be on the lookout for convoys of lead shipments in Florida.

    • JNewman

      June 27, 2012 at 3:39 am

      General, shame on you! You are using dogmatic, narrow-minded mainstream science to try to describe something that comes from new ideas and life-giving optimism. Obviously the heat from the ecat does not come from any previously-known source such as gamma rays. Such things would be detected in experiments, if one were actually to perform any. No, it is all new physics. The heat is just “there” and lots of it. Similarly, the factory is just there… Lots of it. And that lead shielding is just fine at 600 degrees Celsius. The fact that lead melts at 327 is dogmatic, narrow-minded old-school thinking. Maybe you should go over to ecat world. You could pick up some pointers on how to really think about this stuff.

      • General Zaroff

        June 27, 2012 at 4:14 am

        But, but,….oh dear. You are right, it seems I was wrong about everything. Excuse me while I go set fire to the local library, I wouldn’t want the kids to waste their time learning that useless old-school physics.

      • GreenWin

        June 27, 2012 at 6:40 am

        Yep except that, oh wait, “we can take logarithms and find that to remove 99.9% of the radiation we need d = 9.97 cm (roughly).”

        Wrong. To remove 99% of 500keV gamma we only need 2.5cm lead… or steel – to remove 80% (remaining 100keV absorbed by steel form factor.) Or for a few extra bucks go with graded-Z laminate. This IS old school and elementary.

        But I will notify the NJ FD there’s a pyro named Zakaroff on the loose.

        • General Zaroff

          June 27, 2012 at 7:28 am

          Hello GreenWin,

          Well according to the plot on wikipedia, as best I can read the HVL is 1 cm for 500keV gamma rays. I consider wikipedia to be the indisputable truth, so that cannot be the source of error.

          So, perhaps you disagree with my calculation of the logarithm itself? I am a team player so let’s do it together. To remove 99.9% of the radiation requires that I/I0 = 10^(-3), where I = I0*2^(-d/HVL) describes the intensity drop-off due to absorption. So, letting log2 denote the base-2 logarithm, we get
          d = -log2(10^(-3)) = 3*log2(10). Now, if you don’t own a calculator, consider that 2^3=8 < 10 < 16=2^4, so 3 < log2(10) < 4, indicating that 9 < d < 12. So the actual value d=9.97… is at least reasonable.

          Now, if you do own a calculator but are not familiar with the base-2 logarithm, try this: take the base-10 logarithm of both sides of the intensity equation to find d=-log(10^(-3))/log(2) = 9.97 cm. Miraculously, this equation will give you the correct result no matter which base of logarithm you use! Perhaps we should refer to that as Zaroff's theorem, but I digress.

          Maybe you know all about logarithms but the only thing holding you back is the fact that your calculator is LENR-powered, and thus non-functional? May I recommend the following strategies? Either expand the logarithm as a Taylor series or trust the good General.

    • JKW

      June 27, 2012 at 4:06 am

      JNewman has some valid points there, but let’s get unreal and pretend for a moment that E-cat does follow real laws of physics. If we keep General’s assumption that 99.9% of gamma radiation is absorbed by lead, that still leaves 0.1% released into the environment. Since all heat is generated by “thermalizing” gamma rays in the shield, we can assume that 0.1% of total power is radiated out of the device. So a 1 MW e-cat is a source of 1 kW of gamma radiation. Rossi is testing 20 such ecats for more than a month already. I wonder if his eyes glow in the dark.

      • General Zaroff

        June 27, 2012 at 4:27 am

        I supposed 99.9% of the radiation was absorbed because I am not a nuclear scientist and don’t know what is considered safe or detectable.

        I don’t want Rossi to glow in the dark, so maybe he should block 99.99% of the radiation. Then his shields would only have to be 13.3 cm thick and each shield would weigh about 203 kg. He will need a bigger warehouse and at least 22 truckloads of lead per day. This all seems very reasonable to me.

        • JKW

          June 27, 2012 at 5:08 am

          100 Watts is a heck of a radiation source, too, given that anything greater than 1 Sv is practically deadly. 1 Sv = 1 J/kg, so a 100 kg person will be killed by 100 Joules of radiation, the amount emitted in 1 second..
          Anyway, Rossi must have a pretty thick shielding in his e-cat. No wonder the military were interested. Hefty lumps of lead make a formidable weapon when dropped from high altitude.

        • daniel maris

          June 27, 2012 at 7:30 am


          I know your appetite to learn is voracious, so perhaps you should read through this:

          Rossi refers to 50kg of lead lining – I think for the original E cat, not the home heater – but then he is an emotional Italian given to wild imaginings.

      • dsm

        June 27, 2012 at 4:38 am

        IIRC, Piantelli had the same issues 🙂
        PIANTELLI QUOTE Feb 2010 letter:
        “If it was true what that they said (electron + positron reactions) they would already be cooked from the radiation. In my laboratory I never observed such an intensity of radiation of that range (from 511 KeV). The word bullshit comes readily to mind.

        “Tra l’altro se fosse vero quello che dicono ( elettron + positron reactions) dovrebbero già essere arrostiti. Nel mio laboratorio non ho mai rilevato una tale intensità di gamma da 511 KeV. Quel vocabolo (bullshit) è veramente appropriato. “

  16. dsm

    June 27, 2012 at 10:26 am

    In ecat world’s latest post Frank is being frank in asking for people’s opinions on what they think about Rossi’s eCat.

    Frank Ackland says …
    “Speaking for myself, I’m persuaded that the E-Cat is real, and that Andrea Rossi has developed the technology he claims. If I wasn’t convinced, I would not have created this site, and I wouldn’t be spending the amount of time that I do following the story and writing about it. Having said that, I realize that there are people with different points of view, who are yet to be persuaded, and are waiting for more evidence before they are convinced. I think that’s an understandable position to take. ”
    Several times I started to make a post in response to Frank’s lead article but stopped.
    I also started to respond to some of the posters there (e.g. George Hants), but stopped.
    I wait a few hours & decided I’d rather post here. I truly believe Frank Ackland whips up hysteria & has turned eCatWorld into the laughing stock of science & engineering.
    Not because of a lack of enthusiasm or for a lack of conviction, or for a lack of material but because of the obscene lack of caution, good judgement & real-world experience at dealing with monumental & extraordinary claims made by a colorful entrepreneur.
    What I see as happening (and well attested to by many well known participants who do venture into both worlds) is that eCatWorld is the home of the true believers & radical dreamers & eCatNews is the home of firm minded caution & demands for the participants (Rossi & Defkalion) to put up or shut up.
    The problem is that Rossi just keeps singing as if nothing has changed & ignores the need to validate & DGT just pulled the shutters down.
    Frank Ackland & Hank Mills keep whipping up the believers & Paul here has simply stepped back and hopes either Rossi or Defkalion will deliver something sometime soon (i.e. this year).
    Rossi keeps tantalizing’ people as he has done for just under 2 years, usually with the claim that he is about to get ‘certification’. He has just said so again. Rossi said so in regard to UniBo, Uppsala, Celani, NASA, the mysterious ‘military’. But it just NEVER HAPPENS & he keeps rolling along.
    But as long as keep keeps his JoNP ball rolling, Frank Ackland has a playpen for the true believers.
    It is sadly cute to see how devoted many of the folk there are & how they know that the lack of any evidence only proves how great & clever Rossi really is – pure genius (I actually agree but only if we focus on marketing & manipulation of dreams).
    Does this situation tell us anything new about how polarized we tend to become over important but undecided matters ? – nup.
    I am confident I could repost this wording in 3 months & again in 6 months. Nothing will have changed & opinions will be the same.
    Lets see 🙂

  17. buffalo

    June 27, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    people,people, plz,,,511kev gammas is trivial compared to the 1,3 mev gammas spitting out of the element potassium,which is evrywhere.i wouldnt even worry about the lead on my e-cat,thats just to get past the certifiers who scream if theres anything slightly above background levels

  18. Mahron - A4 B2

    June 27, 2012 at 1:03 pm

    Simply reading the word rossi makes me tired now.

    Don’t know were you people still find the energy to debate something that might not even exist.

    • 123star

      June 27, 2012 at 6:10 pm

      You might want to consider switching to A1 B1 😉

  19. buffalo

    June 27, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    from the ecat,naturaly

  20. Shane D.

    June 27, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    Some may laugh at E-catworld, but it’s thriving after attracting a wide and diverse (yes, even skeptics) range of participants, while ecatnews is languishing. One can go to Franks site and actually find the latest developments in LENR and interesting talk about each.

    Here?… well it’s nothing like it used to be. Skeptics have run off the same posters that they fed off of before. Simliar to the parasite taking too much out of the host and killing both. Self defeating, but such is the nature of skeptics.

    Frank (admin) at Ecatworld has eased his censorship lately, forcing the regulars there to fill the void in order to prevent what happened here from happening there. I can’t blame them although it isn’t a pretty process.

    Few believers have a problem with skeptics as they are part of the interesting dialogue and debate. But skeptics, if left unchecked, will kill a talk format forum like this.

    • JNewman

      June 27, 2012 at 4:25 pm

      So tell us, Shane. What are the latest developments in LENR? I am sure everybody here would be quite interested in hearing about them.

      • Shane D.

        June 27, 2012 at 4:47 pm

        You have to say; “pretty please”.

  21. Shane D.

    June 27, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    Peter Gluck just posted his skype interview with PDGT (Defkalion Green Technologies). Looks like they are still very much in the game:

    • Shane D.

      June 27, 2012 at 5:30 pm

      Following are a few choice comments by DGT. Very, very provocative and looks like it all starts in August:

      The time has come when this must be proven and publicized. Soon the world will receive public announcements towards the fact that LENR is real.

      DGTG is currently finalising an industrial prototype ready to be presented as a
      commercial product for market entry within 2012

      It is unlikely that the commercialization of LENR technology by DGTG and others will have an immediate significant decrease in fossil fuel consumption. It will, however, have a very dramatic psychological impact. Investors will see the medium and longterm implications of significantly lower energy prices, and
      consequentially lower the assessed value of soon-to-be obsolete
      energy infrastructure, conventional energy companies, and longterm contracts for their relatively expensive products.

      Many companies from 78 countries have already approached DGTG with an interest to become exclusive licensees to manufacture our Hyperion products, or to initiate joint R&D projects for new applications, or simply to purchase the thermal output of our units

      For us, our industrial secret is much more than just the Nickel powder. We have constructed a product that will have more than 6 patents. Only one of them will be linked to Nickel. We expect a strong industrial espionage effort to know what is in the powder. As such, although we are protecting this secret, our competitive edge is beyond the element of powder; it is in the total functionality of the product

      Of course, you may have seen on the internet that we will be participating as speakers and presenters during the ICCF-17 in Daejeon, Korea. This should be enough as an indication.

      • Al Potenza

        June 27, 2012 at 5:36 pm

        There’s that word again: SOON!

      • General Zaroff

        June 27, 2012 at 6:09 pm

        Hmmm, I thought July was their most recent self-imposed deadline for stunning the world. Now it is August?

        You know, back in December I bought 20 beautiful white doves and three of those endangered snow leopards, and I put them in cages in my basement. I planned to release them for a wonderful celebration on the day that the ecat or hyperion arrived. I sort of forgot about them back in January, but I guess if they have made it this long without food or water, what is one more month?

  22. charles

    July 1, 2012 at 8:39 am

    What’s with all the stupid dirision? Linking “ufos” “psychic loonies” “ecat “believers”?
    The science is done, the peer reviews are done, working models are probably in the hands of the Centralized Energy Distribution Enslavement Boys, and the roomful of nonstop dirision says these folks are at their desks making their paychecks, that their Big Money Enslavement Boys are desperate enough to pay dunderheads big money to work nonstop to throw out endless streams of inane idiocies, and personal attack of proponents for beneficial change that threaten the parasitic existence of the major Corporate Welfare Whores and the monkeys who type stupidities for them. Now I know it’s hard times, and threat of fiscal strain can make the desperate work nonstop like the probverbial monkeys endlessly typing, and coming up with useless nonsense by the ton. All the Big Money Parasites have to provide is dirision to threats to their parasitic way of life. Apparently the poor suckers working for them are desperately on this Stupid Train too. God bless them that they may rise above Enslavement Mentality and become True Human Partners in a better world. I personally couldn’t think of a more hellish existence than to be a dirisive mouthpiece for a parasite.

  23. charles

    July 1, 2012 at 8:59 am

    I can’t believe I spent all that time trying to clean up that commentary and it gets posted like this. My god.

  24. charles

    July 1, 2012 at 9:08 am

    What’s with all the stupid dirision? Linking “ufos” “psychic loonies” “ecat “believers”?
    The science is done, the peer reviews are done, working models are available for all to see.
    All the Big Money Parasites have to provide is dirision to threats to their parasitic way of life. Apparently the poor suckers working for them are desperately on this Stupid Train too and fill rooms like the probverbial thousand monkeys who bang away on typewriters and produce nothing substantial.
    God bless them that they may rise above Enslavement Mentality and become True Human Partners in a better world. I personally couldn’t think of a more hellish existence than to be a dirisive mouthpiece for a mega parasite. I think this makes my point a little clearer.