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NASA LENR Research

June 6, 2012

Some of the inner workings behind the decision to fund LENR research at NASA have now been revealed. There are no great shock-waves and no-one should get carried away into seeing things that are not there or implied. Even so, in answering Keith Cowing’s questions (published on the NASAWatch site) Dennis Bushnell and Joe Zawodny clarify a few important points. Funding is modest but useful at under $1m so far. The decision to fund was subject to internal peer-review and NASA HQ is briefed on progress. My guess is that the latter is just par for the course and we should avoid jumping to conclusions. While it is too much to assume HQ cheer-leading (if they were, I expect serious money would flow) but given the contentious arena where most scientists still consider the field junk science, this is significant. No-one can now deny that LENR research is real science.

It is easy to shout down the efforts of a few maverick’s but that becomes ever harder when the leading edge of those brave and smart enough to look into the glass includes credible institutions such as NASA’s  Glen and Langley RCs. Tiny steps but important science and a huge leap for LENR politics and potential future funding.

 

[With thanks to Daniel Maris]

Posted by on June 6, 2012. Filed under Politics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

602 Responses to NASA LENR Research

  1. Gary Wright Reply

    June 16, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    Well the heavy hand of the NAZI 1984 types (Frank) at e-catworld is keeping up his protection of Rossi.

    I wonder if he has invested in Rossi’s farce?

    I just said that since others were connecting Rossi to the guy in Frank’s new off post article, then I had the right to post about my new article.

    I posted the same thing as I did above.

    He removed it within minutes.

    I will wait till Frank puts up a post about Rossi then post it again and see if I am banned permanently.
    .
    Gary Wright

    • Al Potenza Reply

      June 16, 2012 at 8:11 pm

      The problem for ecat enthusiasts is that there is no “ecat news” any more and hasn’t been for months. All there is is “Rossi says”. And that gets more fanciful every time the guy writes a new one. 10 kW continuous power at 600 degrees C for 40 days? And nobody who has seen it has reported on it? Not likely.

      • Dale G. Basgall Reply

        June 17, 2012 at 5:31 pm

        Al, there has been information posted daily on the e-cat’s by Mr. Rossi, and the claims he is making seem to be advancing into a product but what about the other papers and information of LENR? I know you specified the e-cat and that is a Rossi exclusive phantom cat at this time but one day it may actually emerge into a department store or sold on a late night infomercial.

        Are you not caring about LENR in general and it’s current state of development?

  2. Gary Wright Reply

    June 16, 2012 at 4:52 pm

    Admin I know t is a double post but my post above references this one. To keep them both together please don’t remove this one. I had no idea my post above was going to jump to a new page.

    —–
    Edited by Admin…

    My guess is that Frank does not want his site used as an advertising platform. While I may be a little more tolerant, two copies of the same ad is taking the piss.

    Paul

    • dsm Reply

      June 17, 2012 at 12:11 am

      Gary

      You may know that answers to these questions (7 thus save me a good deal of researching)
      .
      What is the status of Piantelli’s 2009 International patent – was it ever rejected, modified or is it still being assessed ?
      .
      I gather his 1st 2011 patent will be published within 3 months ?
      .
      And just to reconfirm, what happened to Rossis 2009 international patent after he removed the refs to ‘secret ingredient ?
      .
      Did Rossi have the reworded patent rejected ?
      If not is it the one about to be reviewed ?
      .
      Thanks

      DSM

      • Gary Wright Reply

        June 17, 2012 at 7:11 am

        There is no substitute for doing your own research.

        When you do your own research; you see connections to other factual bits of information that you don’t get any other way, also the facts you do uncover have a much deeper meaning because you truly understand the meaning of that information.

        I usually tell people to do their own research, but I would like to answer your last question.

        Rossi right now has only two pending published patents, although he claims to have filed many more.

        When Rossi speaks of his “International” patent you must look at the date of the comment. When he makes that comment before the national phase he is referring to the WIPO application. All the WIPO does is review the patent before it goes to the national phase. Some countries use the WIPO analysis for whether or not a patent gets issued, others like the USPTO, uses their own review. Since the WIPO went to the national phase, when Rossi uses the phrase “International” patent he is talking about the EPO patent application.

        The initial review at the WIPO resulted in every claim on that patent application which used the Italian patent as prior art and that date for priority, being rejected. That rejection followed with the national phase, which the EPO and the USPTO can use if they want or not.

        There are only two patent applications pending, the EPO and the USPTO, neither have been rejected at this time, and both will be reviewed within about 5-6 months time.

        The “secret ingredient” is still referenced in both the EPO and USPTO apps.
        .
        Gary Wright

  3. Dale G. Basgall Reply

    June 16, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    Gary; did you happen to get that info from the translated version or are you able to read Italian?

    I noticed that the first time I read the google translated patent, confusing at best but the new Storms report seems to indicate that the NAE is critical for the mechanism(s) that allow a LENR reaction to take place.

    Also it was apparent that Mr. Rossi just got excited as an inventor and said whatever he wanted and had futuristically anticipated to develop with a product as a result of his newest observation, along with actions to illude others to believe he had developed the product and process way farther than he had claimed.

    Ok, he’s bad, but it’s not that abnormal activity when someone is attempting to capture a new market, problem is it’s so big of a potential that it will be like designing a new car with limitless accessories to attach.

    • Gary Wright Reply

      June 17, 2012 at 6:46 am

      I must assume you did not read the article because in the article I have this comment:

      “DISCLAIMER: When you go to the official WITO website to read this document here:
      http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2009125444&recNum=1&docAn=IT2008000532&queryString=FP:%28WO2009125444%29&maxRec=1
      You must be aware that it says there: “Note: Text based on automatic Optical Character Recognition processes. Please use the PDF version for legal matters.” This analysis is based on that PDF document. You will find it might have different wording than other documents. The name of the document we use is (id00000009056757.pdf). It also has two different summary sections both called “SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION.””
      .
      Everything that Rossi does is well thought out in advance. Except for his angry rants on his blog about certain things.
      .
      Gary Wright

      • Dale G. Basgall Reply

        June 17, 2012 at 5:08 pm

        Gary thanks for the link, Piantelli also claimed the priority of his previous application as read in his newly filed publication we read.

        I guess when you file for a method of which I have never done you simply leave every item claimed a large variable, my stuff is simple mechanical stuff, I don’t even attempt to patent an electronic circuit or any of that stuff that can be “worked around” and stick primarily with the subject matter at hand that I am attempting to patent, I have got 35 years of writing patent behind me though and an attorney with more patents written and issued in diverse mechanical art than any other one attorney I have searched out so I have some good reference to fall back on. The Italians seem to be contending a device also and after review of both the applicants paperwork they both fail severely in having the required content for a US patent to be considered,

        What I cannot get is why these Italian’s write such crummy patents. Getting a patent on something that works is a for sure deal so the only reason these guys are not having much luck is they are not writing them, they are paying to have them written, or they have the wrong attorneys, whatever the reason they should be enlightened, but that usually only happens with experience.

        • JNewman Reply

          June 17, 2012 at 5:33 pm

          If we ignore the question of whether any of these devices actually work, then what we are left with is that these folks are extremely unwilling to say what it is they are actually doing. That certainly comes across in their presentations and papers. So I suppose their patent applications have the same problem. However, you can’t patent something if you refuse to explain what it actually is..

          • Dale G. Basgall

            June 17, 2012 at 8:19 pm

            J that’s correct, I saw this LENR in the beginning as a real concern of national security in the US “if” the Rossi claims were real. I as an American Inventor did not feel comfortable in just letting go and waiting to see “if” LENR would develop.

            I joined a team and we started groundwork and proceeded to want to learn about the processes involved. As the device was being developed I was concerned about the potential in the wrong hands so to speak and the consequences of all living things so I disclosed it to our patent attorney and he stated that a US patent is a contract agreement from the inventor to the government that issues the patent and to allow all others to make and use one for themselves. So the entire idea in filing for a patent is public disclosure.

        • Al Potenza Reply

          June 17, 2012 at 6:34 pm

          “…the only reason these guys are not having much luck is they are not writing them, they are paying to have them written, or they have the wrong attorneys, whatever the reason…”
          -
          Do you think, maybe, the description is vague or bad because the research is defective and in fact, the devices do not work to produce energy from LENR?

          • Dale G. Basgall

            June 17, 2012 at 8:29 pm

            Yes I do and for sure in the early stages there were diversified methods of containing and creating the observed energy gains documented. I do believe this was due to non consistant well controlled experimentation however this is a new baby (LENR) so to speak to the science community.

            I don’t think the research was defective due to the process of concern. When someone observes something that very fiew others have, then each step becomes a new one.

            As soon as someone develops constants regarding LENR and the process, like for example the Storms paper which discloses what he has observed, then we will be able to make it more efficient through learning and to progression of the process.

        • Gary Wright Reply

          June 17, 2012 at 6:39 pm

          In my opinion:
          The patent protection given in the USA Constitution was for a real purpose. It was put in there so anyone, even poor people who had a great new idea, would have protection via patents, to make and sell their invention. It leveled the playing field based on caste, and it gave a must needed incentive for technology development. This was one of the reasons why the USA in a very short time became the greatest industrialized nation on Earth.

          But this system has become corrupted.
          To help those applying for cold fusion/LENR patents every little bit helps. In that regard I have started a series of documents to help people understand the patent system, and give my two cents worth of what I think about how to get a patent approved.

          To me the most important thing is real simple – have a working device before you apply for the patent, that way you can demonstrate it if necessary.

          The first Part I is here:
          http://opensourcelenr.com/?page_id=39
          .
          Gary Wright

  4. BTE-Dan Reply

    June 17, 2012 at 5:32 pm

    For those interested, here is an ECAT debate going on:

    http://www.buildtheenterprise.org/cold-fusion-reborn-the-ecat

  5. Gary Wright Reply

    June 17, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    I am sorry but I just could not pass this up.
    .
    Bernie Koppenhofer
    June 16th, 2012 at 1:39 PM
    Mr. Rossi: Do you think there is a major media blackout of LENR technology?

    Andrea Rossi
    June 16th, 2012 at 3:54 PM
    Dear Bernie Koppenhofer:
    I think that we have to work and to make plants which work properly. The media articles are a consequence of what happens in reality. When our plants will be working in public sites the media will report the facts.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.
    .
    I guess the clear meaning of this is that there are no e-cats verifiably working anywhere, so the media is rightly keeping silent. Rossi has put on many public dog & pony shows for the public already, so not putting on one more public demonstration of a working e-cat can not be the real reason for the silence.

    Let me put it another way. Let me show you the world from inside Rossi’s head.

    Rossi claims to have more than one Nobel winning cold fusion/LENR reactor in operation. 1 MW in size. These devices if real would change the world for all time. They would raise the living standards of billions of people. They would feed the hungry, water the deserts, and bring low cost energy to the world. These devices were shown in public for all to see. These devices are NOW currently FOR SALE.

    But Rossi refuses to advertize these things for sale in any way, anywhere. No TV spots, no magazine ads, no newspaper ads, no company press kits. Nothing, just total silence except from Rossi’s blog. I bet there are many firms that would advertize and promote these for free, just for the publicity their firm would get, (if they were real, that is).

    I think Rossi’s old phrase he has used for two years now, “we have to work and to make plants,” is getting old and thin. There is no working, and there are no plants. And the people know it, good by Rossi, your farce is over.
    .
    Gary Wright

  6. GreenWin Reply

    June 17, 2012 at 7:49 pm

    Checked in only to find one guy using different names to carry on a dialog with himself… Have a great day!

    • Methusela Reply

      June 17, 2012 at 8:15 pm

      Yeah, X-Prize, Dsm, Gary Wright…

      • Dale G. Basgall Reply

        June 17, 2012 at 8:41 pm

        Is that from the gut?

      • dsm Reply

        June 18, 2012 at 12:29 am

        Oh right :)
        .
        Well if I am Gary Wright (which I am not) then GreenWin is both George Hants & Hank Mills & you are – as always getting it wrong :)
        .
        DSM

    • Frank Reply

      June 18, 2012 at 9:40 am

      GreenWin,
      Since you seem to be a talented sleuth in detecting faked dialogs, what is your judgement for that posting on JoNP:
      http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=645&cpage=2#comment-256762
      Real Italian entrepreneur openly approaching Rossi (why not have a private phone-call /mail instead), or a self-fabricated teaser for ‘true believers’?

  7. Iggy Dalrymple Reply

    June 17, 2012 at 10:53 pm

    This site has turned into the private domain of the Btfsplk family. http://www.ronmartin.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/joe-_jbtfsplk.jpg

    I prefer vortec, ecatworld, and nickelpower, sites that cater to the “Silver Lining” crowd.

    • Dale G. Basgall Reply

      June 17, 2012 at 11:45 pm

      Nice Iggy, you have a great day also.

    • RonB Reply

      June 18, 2012 at 5:35 am

      Also, I prefer the “cup half full” crowd too.

      • Frank Reply

        June 18, 2012 at 8:50 am

        … but what when the cup is actually dry empty ?

    • General Zaroff Reply

      June 18, 2012 at 6:00 am

      Yes, I also wish more of my ‘cup half full’ brothers would come back. Now I am one of the few optimists left on this site.

      It seems that the velvet hammers known as John Milestone and Al Potenza have crushed all hope in the believer crowd. Their consistent and repetitive responses to every outlandish statement that pops up has taken some fun out of the game. I think it is pretty unfair that they use facts and science to make people look stupid.

      • dsm Reply

        June 18, 2012 at 6:11 am

        General Sir !

        Such wise words from one so young
        Keep em coming even if the point is totally lost on ‘believers’/'dreamers’ :)

        DSM

        The only real fault with excessive dreaming is the amount of time some can remain lost there even if in bliss. But with a motto like “Never let reality get in the way of a great dream!” – who cares ;)

        • Blanco69 Reply

          June 18, 2012 at 11:42 am

          D

          That’s an interesting critism from someone who surely must hold the number of postings record in recent weeks. I support your right to spend as much time on this as you see fit. But it’s ingracious of you not to endorse others’ right to do likewise. I also love the way you guys through around words like truth, reality and science on something than can only be opinion for all of you.

          • Dsm

            June 18, 2012 at 12:27 pm

            Wanna buy a Moller Skycar – I have one for you at a good price.

            D
            (did you actually read what was said ?) :)

  8. RonB Reply

    June 18, 2012 at 11:28 am

    If the cup is empty, we hope for rain!

    I do have hope that LENR is real and that someday it might be the power source that helps this world in its unquenchable thirst for energy. I don’t think I’m stupid for having hope, it costs me nothing and it’s good for my psyche while cynicism on the other hand is not. As for those cynical people who languish in sarcasm, you have my pity.

    I don’t deny that Rossi is a long-shot and well, maybe LENR is too. I have never been one to play the favourites and something deep inside me makes me always want to support the underdog and rally support against the word-smithing bullies of the world :p

    The dream of having limitless power through the use of hydrogen and nickel may never happen but I’d be happy if while working on that dream other secrets of science are unlocked. Stranger things have happened.

    BTW, true science is about pushing the envelope on reality.
    In 1860 it was unrealistic to believe that a man could travel at 500 mph.

    Before the turn of the last century government leaders were discussing the need to deal with all the horse shit they predicted that would be around when the industrial revolution really started to ramp up. There’s a delicate balance between hope and critical thinking but one should never replace the other.

    I believe in possibilities. What do you believe in?

    • Dsm Reply

      June 18, 2012 at 12:39 pm

      We obviously both agree in the promise of LENR – I am though appalled at the number of people unable to stop slurping Rossi’s painfully obvious manipulation.
      .
      If Rossi had it he would have been proud to show it and earn a place in the history of humankind.
      .
      Dreaming is an essential ingredient of humanity. Excessive dreaming is a problem. Dreams held at the expensive of reality begat scams.
      .
      Rossi is a dream weaver extraordinaire.
      .
      D

      • Tony James Reply

        June 18, 2012 at 2:51 pm

        I remain convinced Rossi had/has “something”. My best guess is he was running trials and had one go off the charts. But it hasn’t proven consistant or reproducable. Look at the 1 MW demo, even if we take everything at face value that there was no deception, only 65% (roughly) actually worked.

        I’m thinking he figured he could easily and quickly nail down how to make it work on demand, and it has proven elusive, so he “hmms and haws”, stretching things out hoping he can perfect it before the cards fall.

        • dsm Reply

          June 18, 2012 at 10:03 pm

          That was pretty much how I saw it for about 6 months. It looked to me like his 1st big success was his Oct 2007 ‘factory heater’ – this was the 1st eCat version he and Focardi produced & was said to have delivered 20 KW (with variation) for over a year before it stopped.
          .
          The concern re Rossi is that it was he who blew the trumpets, rang the bells, made extraordinary claims – then walked from all validations.
          .
          DSM

    • JNewman Reply

      June 18, 2012 at 1:40 pm

      The appeal to humanity: because it would be good if something were true, you should believe that it is true. Otherwise, you are a negative person. Kumbaya.

    • Dale G. Basgall Reply

      June 18, 2012 at 3:30 pm

      Ron I also believe that hope is the critical factor here, it isn’t going to make any difference at all if Rossi tells the truth to some people or he doesn’t. His life still remains and he most likely has many supporters that know him that are all hoping he get’s his e-cat’s going like he claimed and wanted.

      He has a great dream, clean alternative energy and he did something about it, and he is still onto refining the process. LENR is here and it will be developed, I myself have no doubt at all that LENR will be developed and will possibly be allowed to the public at some point in development.

      Otherwise it is also critical to hope that humanity in general will migrate towards more non paracitic activities. After inventing several things and obtaining patents on several of them I have had my bubble of hope busted over and over, in attempting to promote what I thought would be helpful and useful to others.

      On the way to accomplishment human character becomes obvious, that awareness changes a person or at least it changed my viepoint towards human beings. I presume it is why most inventors are recluse, and also why LENR has not developed.

      I actually wouldn’t mind seeing some math on the General’s sceanrio of what he calculates is the possibility in a percentage of the billions of people on the earth having hope that anything better will actually change in the majority of humans causing problems or hardships on others. In other words humans that are consistantly “busting someones bubble of hope” because they have none for themselves.

      Of course there is the variable that those people themselves busting others hope bubbles, behind closed doors most likely have some type of hope for something else in their lives also, making them hipocritical individuals.

      What’s the chances in percentage that humanity will become more humane in the future and live together without causing agression between themselves? Those are odds that will most likely come in at 99-1 in favor of no change willingly in human character, paracites don’t change until they die.

      Those others posting on this site in that type of demeaner hopefully can be changed into accepting that we are only trying to seek out new ways of doing things and learning is one key to understanding that leads into an awareness that change has become necessary.

    • Ivy Matt Reply

      June 19, 2012 at 3:30 pm

      I’d be happy if while working on that dream other secrets of science are unlocked.

      You know, that’s probably a pretty safe hope.

  9. INCUBUS Reply

    June 18, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    Personally, I believe in verifiable facts, empirical truth.
    I’m what you might call a casual observer of the e-cat phenomenon, dropping in from time to time on this site and ecat world.
    I think, that if e-cat was ‘real’, it would be fantastic, it would revolutionise the planet, economically and environmentally, perhaps creating soemthing of a paradigm shift in consciousness. It would solve many problems facing our species, and yes, cause a few too- politically, when we consider the vested interests in the energy market.
    However, for about a year I’ve seen no change in the on-going debate. No peer-reviewed evidence, no great unveiling of an earth-shattering new technology…If you think of all the technological innovations that have come about and how they were revealed, and how quickly they took off, i.e. the steam engine, manned flight, nuclear power, the automobile, penecillin etc. etc. it would appear that e-cat technology simply doesn’t actually exist outside the internet. I have no idea what the motivations of Rossi are. Humans are peculiar creatures to say the least, and the only comparable example I can think of regarding keeping a tech hidden, is the one of Piers Corbyn’s sunspot-weather prediction, but at the very least he has demonstrable results, which he makes public, while keeping the method hidden.

    I don’t see that with Rossi. It’s a dame shame, but increasingly the whole thing is looking like a mirage of a waterhole in the desert, with too many thirsty people chasing it…

    • LCD Reply

      June 18, 2012 at 3:48 pm

      As a caual observer your impression is what it should be. If you want to change it you have to dig deeper.

      • JNewman Reply

        June 18, 2012 at 4:30 pm

        Of course, if you truly dig deeper rather than indulging in the delusionary group think on certain websites, your impression will probably get worse.

        • Ransompw Reply

          June 18, 2012 at 5:12 pm

          Ah Newman:

          Have you tried?

          • JNewman

            June 19, 2012 at 4:44 am

            Seriously, Random? What do you recommend one study to come to the conclusions you have? Or is it possible, unbelievable as it seems, to see things differently from you? Try to imagine that.

  10. John Milstone Reply

    June 18, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    I believe in possibilities

    The very definition of a sucker.

  11. Al Potenza Reply

    June 18, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    “Look at the 1 MW demo, even if we take everything at face value that there was no deception, only 65% (roughly) actually worked.”
    -

    Let’s review that “demo”, shall we? Rossi invited scientists and press people and then he let them see essentially nothing. They did not see how data was taken. They brought and used none of their own instruments.

    A supposed customer engineer, who, for all we know, could have been working for Rossi, gave them some numbers at the end of the demo. A large diesel generator connected to the ecat was running the entire time. The customer, if there is one, has remained anonymous. Nobody has interviewed the “engineer”.

    That’s a “demo”? Really?

    • LCD Reply

      June 18, 2012 at 4:40 pm

      He did say if we assume no deception.

      Thats not. Even the most interesting one though.

      • Al Potenza Reply

        June 18, 2012 at 4:59 pm

        The reasonable assumption is that there was, in fact, deception. That it was entirely deception. Why else do it that way if it was not deception?

    • Tony James Reply

      June 19, 2012 at 2:49 pm

      That was kind of my point. Even if, beyond all credibility we assume that everything was on the level, the “best case scenario” for Rossi, even then he didn’t have a reliable machine since only 65% worked.

      So if the absolute best case is unreliable, what does that say to the chances that he has a sellable product??

  12. Gary Wright Reply

    June 18, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    Frank posted an interesting article on ecatwrld.
    I put the below posting there – it has stayed for a few minutes so I am hopeful I am not banned permanently. I guess Paul was right, see above.
    —–
    Gary Wright on June 18, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    In my opinion the reason the media is not covering the cold fusion/LENR story this year is because Andrea Rossi has muddied the water so much the last two years, that no one in the media believes anything about this science is real anymore.

    I wrote an open letter to the scientists supporting Andrea Rossi here:
    http://shutdownrossi.com/

    In it I said this among other things:

    “Andrea Rossi claims to have more than one Nobel winning cold fusion/LENR reactor in operation. 1 MW in size. These devices if real would change the world for all time. They would raise the living standards of billions of people. They would feed the hungry, water the deserts, warm the cold, and bring low cost energy to the world. A dog and pony show was given in public for one of these devices on October 28, 2011 for all to see, but verified and proved nothing. These devices are supposedly NOW currently FOR SALE. But the new research center at the University of Missouri created to study LENR, where Mr. Duncan is administering a $5.5M grant – refused to buy one of Andrea Rossi’s 1 MW plants for research and study. ”

    And also in the letter, (go to the link to read the whole story):

    “In a 180 degree spin from all known marketing and promotion of ground breaking inventions in all of the world’s recorded history Andrea Rossi refuses to advertize these things for sale in any form, anywhere. No TV spots, no magazine ads, no newspaper ads, no radio ads, no company press kits. Nothing, just total silence except from Andrea Rossi’s personnel internet blog. I bet there are many firms that would advertize and promote these for free, just for the publicity their firm would get, (if they were real, that is).”
    .
    Gary Wright

    • Gary Wright Reply

      June 18, 2012 at 5:16 pm

      Well, I spoke to soon, it looks like I am permanently banned from Frank’s site unless I become a Rossi disciple, which of course I will never do.

      There were some signs of my passing, though that will probably be removed also:
      —–
      Peter Roe on June 18, 2012 at 4:00 pm

      Ah – “dog and pony show” – one of the favourite phrases of the fake skeptics. Careful Gary, your agenda is showing.
      Reply

      Peter Roe on June 18, 2012 at 4:01 pm

      Too late! – Frank, could you knock these comments off too please.
      Reply
      —–
      It was just this sort of treatment that I had anticipated that kept me off the boards for the last three years.

      There are many other better ways to promote LENR and try to stop Rossi’s damage. I think I will put my all energy into those methods.
      .
      Gary Wright

      • un passante Reply

        June 18, 2012 at 5:23 pm

        There are many other better ways to promote LENR and try to stop Rossi’s damage. I think I will put my all energy into those methods.
        .
        Gary Wright

        hopefully no method involving shooting people!

    • Ransompw Reply

      June 18, 2012 at 5:22 pm

      Why do you keeping posting this? Your crusade is a waste of everyone’s time. I think it exceedingly unlikely that you can achieve your goal (shut down Rossi, whatever that means) and I don’t even think it is 100% certain it would be worthwhile. Do you have any purpose beside this vendetta as to Rossi?

      • Methusela Reply

        June 18, 2012 at 5:59 pm

        Well, there’s an opening since Krivit stopped, so maybe Gary has been handed the Baton by Steve?

      • Gary Wright Reply

        June 18, 2012 at 6:16 pm

        “Do you have any purpose beside this vendetta as to Rossi?”

        That is a good question.

        And I have been working hard to get a new lab project going – it is the: Open Source LENR Project® that can be found here:
        http://opensourcelenr.com/

        To get the project going certain things need to be done.
        In that regard I am doing many things personally to get the project off the ground.

        One of those things is a project, which is very close to being implemented, that resulted from my communications with the administrators of the:

        Cornell University, arXiv.org website and database. Every scientist and researcher is familiar, or should be, with this excellent database of scientific literature.

        Please stay tuned for the soon release of this project!
        .
        Gary Wright

        • daniel maris Reply

          June 18, 2012 at 8:47 pm

          Are you saying Rossi is an out and out fraud who has no working device? If so, do you think Professor Focardi was completely bamboozled by Rossi during the years they worked together closely on prototypes of the e cat (according to Focardi) or do you think Focardi is in on the scam?

          • Frank

            June 18, 2012 at 11:11 pm

            This video interview
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmWbVH5A4gI
            will give you some insight about Focardis ‘contribution’ to the e-cat development. If you don’t want to watch the entire video, then start at 7:45.
            You will learn that Focardis ‘contribution’ was to give some advice for radioactivity checks (for personal safety); not the design of the core or the ‘secret catalyzer’ etc.

        • dsm Reply

          June 18, 2012 at 11:08 pm

          Gary
          .
          As some honest feedback – I have read the stuff on your website and you do have a lot of interesting points you have raised. But, the name of your website and the tone of the posting is so intense that it (IMHO) completely defeats the intent.
          .
          Most if not all of us who keep hanging out at LENR related websites are hooked (line & sinker) on the potential of endless free energy. The potential is so powerful it is simply too hard to ignore. But, many people have created a link between this potential and Rossi & see any criticisms of Rossi as somehow a criticism of the free energy potential. You then are seen by many as an enemy & any facts or logic in your words goes right over their heads.
          .
          To people who are more demanding & are none the less hooked on the potential, we want proofs and of course there are none other than some milliwatt devices in the US.
          But we (I put myself in this category) are mostly likely to find your website too far over the top to want to follow it.
          .
          Just look what happened to Krivit. He AFAICT is pretty accurate in what he reports but look at the hate that there is towards him and all because he doesn’t believe Rossi and insists Rossi is faking. It is my opinion that Krivit is pretty well on target most of the time. He isn’t perfect. But he is seen as having a vendetta against Rossi or is seen as a paid shill out to destroy Rossi (despite their being no evidence for either case).
          .
          So what I am leading to is that your style of reporting and the approach you have taken will get you nowhere with very many interested people.
          .
          Even if you drop the rhetoric & blatant anti Rossi commentary & just report facts, you will still have a tough time.
          .
          However, good luck in whatever you keep doing but my advice is do a serious revamp of your site & back off a lot from the extremes.
          .
          DSM

          • Gary Wright

            June 19, 2012 at 1:24 am

            “DSM”
            I appreciate the time you took to give me your thoughts on what you think would make my site more acceptable to a lot of the readers. And you are probably right, if my intent was to get as many readers as possible. But that is not why the site is there.

            But, the name of your website and the tone of the posting is so intense that it (IMHO) completely defeats the intent.

            The name very accurately portrays the purpose and contents of the site so it will not be changed. Because the LENR community has refused to do its job of self policing its own, as the science community in general does, as referenced by the hundreds of published peer reviewed papers withdrawn each year. I do not feel the tone is out of place, in fact it is necessary.

            But, many people have created a link between this potential and Rossi & see any criticisms of Rossi as somehow a criticism of the free energy potential. You then are seen by many as an enemy & any facts or logic in your words goes right over their heads.

            And here you have hit the nail on the head. This is some of the greatest damage Andrea Rossi has created. Rossi’s handlers have created a propaganda coup extraordinaire. They call evil good – and good evil. My work coming from my two websites will break this vicious propaganda reversal. As the people read on my website material they cannot get anywhere else, both concerning Andrea Rossi and my LENR lab, they will come to understand the connections in all of my facts and logic.

            But we (I put myself in this category) are mostly likely to find your website too far over the top to want to follow it.

            Here again I am publishing material not found anywhere else in the world. Those who are drawn will find a way to accept what I am doing, in the manner I am doing it, even though they do not understand why I am doing it this way. They will read what I have written and say to themselves OK, but I would have written it in different words or a different tone. Nobody understands what is going on here like I do. Andrea Rossi is just the last person in a long line of people trying to keep LENR from reaching the world. A system of propaganda that started in 1989. And the handlers of Andrea Rossi are masters of propaganda.

            Just look what happened to Krivit. He AFAICT is pretty accurate in what he reports but look at the hate that there is towards him and all because he doesn’t believe Rossi and insists Rossi is faking. It is my opinion that Krivit is pretty well on target most of the time. He isn’t perfect. But he is seen as having a vendetta against Rossi or is seen as a paid shill out to destroy Rossi (despite their being no evidence for either case).

            I agree with your assessment of Krivit. Just look at how he is treated at vortex. But I am not Krivit. And this is not a popularity contest. But let’s look at the work of Krivit. Or even better let’s imagine what the LENR world would be like if Krivit had not written one word about Andrea Rossi. The farce of Andrea Rossi would have been much further along, there would be nobody today writing anything negative about Rossi, or even sitting on the fence, the whole world would now look at the Andrea Rossi project like the people do now at ecateworld. When most honest people write a story about Rossi they always talk to Krivit to get a balanced viewpoint. If Krivit wasn’t there with the work he has done, there would not be an opposing viewpoint to go to.

            And my final comment – if a writer only writes what will please his/her audience what a sad world this would be. No Galileo, no Copernicus, no Martin Luther, no Bible, no Ten Commandments, etc., some of what we consider the greatest of writings today were at the time very unpopular. Nostradamus had to write in code.

            So what I am leading to is that your style of reporting and the approach you have taken will get you nowhere with very many interested people.

            That may be true but, see my other responses elsewhere in these replies.

            Even if you drop the rhetoric & blatant anti Rossi commentary & just report facts, you will still have a tough time.

            I already knew this going in. But the sole purpose of the site is to stop the propaganda to stop LENR that is coming from Andrea Rossi.

            However, good luck in whatever you keep doing but my advice is do a serious revamp of your site & back off a lot from the extremes.

            Thank you, but no revamping, and no backing off until LENR is in the hands of the people.
            .
            Gary Wright

          • dsm

            June 19, 2012 at 2:26 am

            Gary
            .
            You said “I already knew this going in. But the sole purpose of the site is to stop the propaganda to stop LENR that is coming from Andrea Rossi.”
            .
            But the very point I am trying to make, is that your approach looks like it will achieve the opposite. Rossi will get an increasing sympathy vote & you will be cast as the villain, not Rossi.
            .
            DSM

          • Gary Wright

            June 19, 2012 at 2:38 am

            “DSM”

            You are just repeating yourself.
            I got it the first time.
            .
            Gary Wright

          • dsm

            June 19, 2012 at 2:48 am

            PS You also mentioned “Rossi’s handlers”. I must admit that my 1st reaction to that odd comment was ‘ooops paranoia showing’. Do you have anything that justifies making such a comment ?. How did you reach such a conclusion ?. Why would anyone be ‘handling Rossi’ he is really his own person.
            .
            I am reminded of Jed Rothwell’s conviction that Rossi has a deliberate agenda of doing bad demos just because it is part of Rossi’s marketing strategy. To me that smacks of opinion rather than anything factual. Bad demos make him look stupid.
            .
            The only reason/explanation I can see that makes any sort of sense for Rossi’s drip-feed of unprovable blog posts & lack of certification, is that his strategy is to keep himself, the master showman, center stage (vs any other LENR researcher) while he tries to figure out how to get it to work. or, tries to get a definitive patent !.
            .
            It is very obvious that Rossi has cornered the spotlight & whilst he has detractors, he also appears to have a massive fan base of devotees, so in one sense if he is just hogging the spotlight while trying to complete a reliable eCat, or get a patent, then it is working.
            .
            DSM

        • Robert Munson Reply

          June 19, 2012 at 4:44 pm

          What happens when u find out you’ve been wrong all along. I hope that day comes soon. Obviously everyone here knows your in someone’s back pocket nobody could have such a strong negative spin on one man without an alterior motive.

  13. General Zaroff Reply

    June 18, 2012 at 6:09 pm

    Hello Dale,

    I will try to answer your question but I admit it is a tricky one. Since I am a little unclear on exactly what you want estimated, I will find the following: Given that everyone hopes for a better world and peace, what is the probability that tomorrow will be a happy, conflict-free day?

    I will assume that people have always hoped for this utopia, as I am a believer that humans are inherently good and do not wish ill upon others.

    Here are the important variables:
    - Let ‘H’ represent the total number of happy or harmonious days with no conflict or strife at all.
    - Let ‘N’ denote the total number of days of observation we have to work with.
    - Let ‘P’ denote the unknown probability that a given day will be happy (ie no conflict). As an optimist, I assume that P>0 (there must be at least some chance of a perfect happy day), but cold, hard historical facts also tell me that P<1.

    Well, with these variables and assumptions we can use Laplace's rule of succession. This tells us that:
    P = (H+1)/(N+2).

    To find P and answer your question, we need to know H and N. That requires some knowledge of history and a bit of intuition. Here are the assumptions I make:
    1. The earth is just 6000 years old. I, like most of the other rational posters here, am a Creationist. So, we deduce N=6000*365.25 days.
    2. From archaeological records dataing back 30,000 years, we can say that there has never been a harmonious day. That is, man has been in conflict since he crawled out of the primordial soup, dropped his tail, and started walking upright. We can infer, then, that H=0.

    The calculation is now easy and we get P = 1/2,191,502. If you prefer a percentage, we can say that the chance of a harmonious day tomorrow is 0.000045631%.

    I think this calculated value is significantly greater than the chance that Rossi has the goods. So I suppose we just need to convince more people to put their faith in Rossi. Hope really is the key.

    • Ransompw Reply

      June 18, 2012 at 6:36 pm

      General a conflict free day seems wildly optomistic, even at 1/2,191,502. Are you sure your calculation is right. Maybe one of your assumptions is flawed.

      How about a calculation aimed more at general attitudes? Say, are there times of more optimism and less optimism and how do we know where we currently lie on likely bell shaped curve of these general attitudes.

      On the other hand if this seems too difficult for analysis, I will understand.

      • General Zaroff Reply

        June 18, 2012 at 7:31 pm

        Ransompw, I don’t think my assumptions are flawed. My estimate of the earth being 6000 years old comes from adding up the lifespans of all the people in the bible. I’ve run those numbers and 6000 years is pretty accurate. Now, if you were to believe those pagan archaeologists, geologists, paleontologists, physicists, and scientologists who suggest the earth and mankind are a wee bit older, then P would drop.

        As for your question about calculating general attitudes I am sad to say I wouldn’t know where to start. Truth be told, probability theory is not my game at all.

        • GreenWin Reply

          June 19, 2012 at 5:50 am

          Damn Generale, King David alone hung around 400+ years (I’m told.) Those Zoroastrians supposedly put in 2-300 each. An what about the Annunaki? (they’re baaack!) and the Arcturians (nice crop circles) and the Pleiadesians (“we want you to be happy”??)

          Now, there are a bunch of guys called paleontologists who insist these creatures called “dinosaurs” roamed around a few million years ago. But hey, I saw “Capricorn One” and know for sure Apollo never landed in a studio city moon set. So… yeah, the earth’s 6000 years old, give or take 4 billion.

    • Dale G. Basgall Reply

      June 18, 2012 at 7:29 pm

      General thank you for that assessment and reply, now I have a little more hope that certain people that purposely force themselves to have a happy day (if that is trully plausable) could be singled out in a percentage of their own and considered a majority, then divded by reality events as they interpret them in a timeline extending into the future lets say each 10 days.

      A question would be; if out of the singled out majority @100% declared happy and based on each 10 day assessment of reality events either + or – projected out, how many in % would then become unhappy compared to the most happy individual in that timeframe, would that make them unhappy in comparison to the onset scale of happiness.

      It appears hoping to be happy (you have to define individually)could possibly lead to forcing yourself to be happy when your living environment is socially clouded.

      It appears that Hope is the last thing you will lose, and things you lose are usually found in the last place you look to find them. I have new hope that others will force themselves to be happy today, but now I need to get to work!

      I have to say I am a creationist also if that simply boils down to an awareness that everything has been created for some reason, wheather we create it through new inventions as people today or it has been created dating back to infinity.

      The Rossi thing and this LENR seems to have like elements running consistant with creating a new science. It seems hard to understand how someone could just stumble on to this claimed new technology LENR there seems to be multiple sliding variables for observation of the events in the NAE compartments, so I hope that we happy campers on the LENR campground find that LENR is a real science that gives us more opportunity to have energy from nickel instead of crude oil.

    • dsm Reply

      June 18, 2012 at 10:14 pm

      Aha :)

      .
      General said “I will assume that people have always hoped for this utopia, as I am a believer that humans are inherently good and do not wish ill upon others.”
      .
      Then comes the reality :( – people may hope for peace/nirvana/goodwill, but who are the creatures that constantly prevent it or scuttle it :)
      .
      Reality is that in these matters man says one thing but does another. May be we have to hand world administration over to the whales :)
      .
      DSM
      (drat, forgot about those human wannabees – the killer whales)

  14. Frank Reply

    June 18, 2012 at 7:50 pm

    Talking about hope:
    A disappointing information for the ‘believers’ who hope that the 1MW container, which Rossi earlier announced to deliver to a non-military European customer, will be soon available for public inspection:


    Andrea Rossi
    June 18th, 2012 at 12:42 PM
    Dear Franco:
    We will deliver in July, then we will give the information in due time. it will take some time for the set up and the authorizations. We will give information after the consolidated operation of the plant for some month.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • John Milstone Reply

      June 18, 2012 at 9:17 pm

      He has already claimed to have delivered that device twice now (once in November, once in May).

      • tyler Reply

        June 19, 2012 at 2:50 am

        John,

        It is my understanding that Rossi claimed the first delivery (ordered in November after the demo and finally delivered around March after making tweaks) was to the US military customer. He later stated last month that he would be delivering a 2nd 1MW plant to a European customer this July.

        To my understanding Rossi has not (yet) changed the timetable for the European delivery of the 2nd 1MW plant.

        We’ll see how it plays out, I am hoping for the best.

        tyler

        • dsm Reply

          June 19, 2012 at 5:08 am

          Tyler,

          Do you seriously believe a ‘US Military’ customer would leave the 1MW plant they wanted to buy, sitting in Rossis factory grounds for 5 months while Rossi fiddled with it ?.

          Cheers

          DSM
          (PS Did Rossi ever say ‘US Military customer’ or just ‘Military customer’ ?. Point being how easy it is to morph meanings from likely insignificant to highly significant by letting the listener mis-interpret a statement).

        • dsm Reply

          June 19, 2012 at 6:35 am

          Tyler,
          .
          Sorry to rub this in but I just did a scan of Rossi’s JoNP blog to see just how Rossi describes his ‘Military’ customer because it is very clear to me that people who don’t read well can so often read one thing and see another.
          .
          Rossi is a master at getting things said with out having to say them. He lets people like you do that for him.
          .
          Here are examples of how Rossi describes this military customer. Nowhere does he say US Military, he lets people like yopu say it! …
          .
          “Andrea Rossi
          May 16th, 2012 at 9:58 AM

          Dear Antonella:
          We must put a clear distinction between competitors, acting as “neutral validators” and true scientists: we are working very well with many of the best scientists who are helping us very much. I am referring, among the others, to the military scientists working on our plant.
          Warm Regards,
          A.R.”
          .
          Another …
          “Andrea Rossi
          May 13th, 2012 at 8:03 AM

          Dear Pietro F.:
          I have been authorized to give the following information.
          The 1 MW plant has been delivered and is working in a military concern. It has been made in the USA, after the October test of the prototype made in Italy; such prototype will be delivered, with the modifications which we will complete based on what we learnt from the model at work, to a European Customer in July. I have not been allowed to give this information until now.
          We are working very much and very hard to be as fast as possible. For the domestic E-Cats we have the necessity of the certification made. The industrial plants will get the necessary certification within weeks.
          Warm Regards,
          A.R.”
          .
          Another …
          “Andrea Rossi
          May 5th, 2012 at 5:30 PM

          Dear P.G. Sharrow:
          I must thank our military Customer, we are working with them and learning.
          Warm Regards,
          A.R.”
          .
          Another …
          “Andrea Rossi
          April 11th, 2012 at 1:00 PM

          Dear Mark Saker:
          You are right: very much is going on behind the scenes, because in this matter is best first do things, then talk of them.
          We will give due information of all the facts we will have made, while during the making of them we prefer to work in silence, to work better.
          The 1 MW plant is for military purpose, it cannot be seen, but when we will have (soon) a plant in operation that will be visitable, People like you, who have helped us, will be invited to visit it.
          Very important things are in the making, but, again, I prefer making before talking.
          Warm Regards,
          A.R.”
          .
          Another …
          .
          “Andrea Rossi
          November 24th, 2011 at 7:42 PM

          Dear Patrick of Sidney:
          Actually, we have found a breakthrough with a primary fluid with wich the reactors remain stable when we make steam at 450 Celsius. We are working on it together with our Customer. I am learning very much from him, and in particular I am learning from the person who made the test of the plant on October 28th. This person, now retired, is an engineer who used to test for military concerns thermic plants and missiles, so that he has a tremendous experience in thermodynamics. Here is to learn really and, honestly, when it turns to learn I am pretty fast. This collaboration is accelerating the development of the technological declinations.
          Warm Regards,
          A.R.
          p.s. Tom & Doug are great musicists, you knew that?”
          .
          And on and on …

          • Dale G. Basgall

            June 19, 2012 at 7:43 pm

            dsm, this seems to make perfect logical sence now, to me anyway. Mr. Rossi knew without doubt that “if” he claimed any type of Nuclear or Fusion that the U.S. military would come to visit him. After all here in the US you could be considered a security issue by just the words you type into your e-mails and comments on sites, including facebook.

            The sure way to get attention is to claim Nuclear, no one wants to be radiated and especially after the Twin Towers knock down in New York. Anyway Rossi can keep talking but I bet there have been restraints put on what he is saying to the public. After all “if” you had a device like Rossi claims it would be best and most wise to give it to someone with the responsibility of others safety, and the military would be the only customer an inventor would need. One time and it’s gone gone gone so the e-mails make perfect sence from a standpoint of a locked in deal.

            It’s either be happy of all the people upset because you lied to the following public and keep telling untruths all he wants, or perhaps go through Levanworth Kansas not as a visitor for not complying to the first customers requirements.

          • John Milstone

            June 19, 2012 at 8:11 pm

            Mr. Rossi knew without doubt that “if” he claimed any type of Nuclear or Fusion that the U.S. military would come to visit him.

            In Italy? Note that there is no evidence that Rossi has done anything related to the E-Cat in the United States. All of his public presentations were in his garage in Bologna. And, the only “official” word is Rossi’s denial that he was doing any manufacturing in the United States.

            After all here in the US you could be considered a security issue by just the words you type into your e-mails and comments on sites, including facebook.
            I bet there have been restraints put on what he is saying to the public.

            If Rossi is being “restrained” by the U.S. Military, then they are doing a lousy job of it. If he were part of any military operation, he wouldn’t be saying anything. Instead, he is spewing nonsense all over the Internet.

            or perhaps go through Levanworth Kansas not as a visitor for not complying to the first customers requirements.

            If Rossi goes to jail, it won’t be Leavenworth, and it won’t be for revealing military secrets. It will be for business fraud.

        • John Milstone Reply

          June 19, 2012 at 11:14 am

          tyler,

          You’re understanding is flawed.

          In November, just after the alleged test for his “secret” customer, Rossi was asked by a blog poster if he had shipped the E-Cat from that test. Rossi answered that the E-Cat from the demo was “gone”, and that he was (present tense) working on the next dozen boxes.

          Then, in January, it was discovered that the E-Cat was still sitting in his warehouse, in exactly the same position as it had been when he did his alleged test. Rossi then stated that what he meant to say was that the purchase went through, but that they were busy working on the original box (supposedly fixing leaky gaskets).

          Then, in May (not March), Rossi claimed that he had just delivered a new and different E-Cat to his “secret” customer, which he now claims is a “military” customer. Rossi also claimed at this point that he was (once again) beginning to work on the next dozen boxes.

          Now, he’s claiming that he will deliver the box next month.

          This is the third time, over a period of 7 month, where he has made contradictory claims about delivering his first E-Cat.

          The only thing that might possibly point to some sort of military involvement was Rossi’s claim that his “secret” customer’s agent was a “former NATO Colonel”. It’s worth pointing out that in spite of the tremendous interest in every detail of this story, no one has been able to verify that this person actually exists. It is inconceivable that such a person (NATO Colonel and engineer specializing in thermodynamics) could possibly leave absolutely no trace of his existence.

          So, it is likely that this “secret NATO Colonel” is just one more lie.

          • Ransompw

            June 19, 2012 at 12:21 pm

            John:

            From DSM’s post just above you see that you are wrong. For what is is worth, in May Rossi said he would be delivering his prototype the one tested in October to a European concern in July. The one first delivered to the Military Customer was a new one allegedly built in the U.S.

            Now that isn’t to say there aren’t plenty of contradictions in the above from what he was saying back in November 2011 and January 2012, but in May he was fairly clear the reactor tested in October was being refit and would be delivered in July.

            Do I believe him, not really, it is just a Rossi says but I just wanted you to get the “says’ accurate.

          • John Milstone

            June 19, 2012 at 12:46 pm

            @Ransompw

            Upon re-reading, I see that you are correct. Rossi is claiming to have two devices: the one he showed off on October 28th, and the one he claims to have built in the United States and delivered in May.

            I also agree that there are plenty of contradictions in Rossi’s stories.

            The fact remains that he lied when he said the device from the October 28th test was “gone” (his word). He has stated that he is just starting to work on the “next 12″ devices both in November and in May.

            And, he claimed in February that there was no manufacturing occurring in the United States, even though he claimed that the earlier E-Cats were built in Florida and that the “new” E-Cat was built in the United States.

            I guess he was just lucky that at the moment he was asked about whether or not he was manufacturing in the United States he happened to be “in-between” his various manufacturing runs.

          • Al Potenza

            June 19, 2012 at 5:42 pm

            “The fact remains that he lied when he said the device from the October 28th test was “gone” (his word). He has stated that he is just starting to work on the “next 12″ devices both in November and in May.”
            -
            My question is whether he includes the 450 kW diesel generator with the megawatt ecat or whether it’s an optional extra.

  15. GreenWin Reply

    June 19, 2012 at 4:13 am

    Okay guys… Even though it’s only doug here talkin’ to himself, the ex-VP (and military flunky)- you’re gonna get a kick outta this. In Michigan there’s a guy running for Senate named Randy Heckman. Randy is a TOTAL crackpot:

    “Since 1996, Hekman has had an on-going interest in alternate energy research and technology. He formed his own company that year to provide energy research and consultation, particularly in the growing area of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR)[kookoo alert!].

    Mistakenly called “cold fusion” by some, scientists now understand this process, while nuclear, involves neither fusion nor fission. Because of its nature, LENR does not require heavy shielding nor does it produce radioactive waste. It offers incredible potential to provide inexpensive and safe energy for our nation, and a boost to our economy.”

    To confirm this guy’s crack pottedness he concludes his new campaign pitch with this:

    “Will you listen to God’s call and do what He tells you to do? Randy Hekman”

    http://randyhekman2012.com/_blog/Blog/post/Energy_America%27s_Next_%27Space_Race%27_/

    Doug, your right, these LENR buffs are religious fanatics!!

    • dsm Reply

      June 19, 2012 at 4:50 am

      GreenWin
      .
      WTF “ex-VP (and military flunky)” – ? Pls Explain ?
      and
      Where TF “Doug, your right, these LENR buffs are religious fanatics!!” did that come from. Certainly not me ?. A religious fanatic is just that (you shd know). Is there any clear association of religious fanaticism to LENR ?.
      .
      When you read do you just see words or do you see meanings ?. I sometimes wonder.
      .
      DSM

    • General Zaroff Reply

      June 19, 2012 at 5:06 am

      Hello GreenWin, welcome back. I was worried you had flown too close to the sun on wings powered by LENR. I hope you are here to stay.

      As for this Heckman fellow you mention above, I simply cannot trust him. Who could? Anyone who goes by the first name ‘Randy’ should be treated with suspicion. ‘Randy’ is an adjective, not a name.

      Perhaps Mr. Heckman is some sort of fortune-teller. He was doing LENR work when everyone else was stuck on cold fusion. It was also pretty bold of him to start a consulting firm for an industry that still doesn’t even exist.

  16. GreenWin Reply

    June 19, 2012 at 5:25 am

    Gentlemen, what are you doing UP at this ungodly hour?? I am humberled. Generale you make an excellent point re: “Randy.” How could anyone whose very name suggests rangy hips – demand we listen to “God’s call and do what He tells you…???”

    Wasn’t it Soupy Sales who told us to gather up all that green paper on Dad’s dresser and mail it to Soupy??

    doug… randy hekman, religious fanatic, lenr. Is this rocket science??

    • dsm Reply

      June 19, 2012 at 6:14 am

      GW
      .
      Are you out of Lithium Carbonate again ?
      .
      If yes let me arrange a prescription – am worried they may be needed – can sense it :(
      .
      D

  17. Gary Wright Reply

    June 19, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    LENR Without Rossi

    As proof of my statement that Andrea Rossi is doing damage even now to the whole LENR field, it is almost impossible to get people to think or talk about how we can create and sell real working commercial LENR devices without them talking about Andrea Rossi and his e-cat, or his spin off organization – Defkalion. And as long as people think those are the ones to make this happen they won’t go look for other ways to get real LENR commercial devices on the market. The most common phrase I read about is just wait, Andrea Rossi will have something soon.

    Every person who makes comments like this is just hurting the cause to make LENR available soon, and is doing just what their Master Rossi wants. Every month waiting for Andrea Rossi to produce anything is a month wasted in getting a real LENR project off the ground. Andrea Rossi will never have anything to sell, or anything in the market until, someone else has created something Rossi can copy and duplicate, and then pass off as his own.

    If you truly want a working LENR device in every home you must forget about Andrea Rossi and start talking about and helping some real project that is working hard to get LENR off the ground.
    —–
    We put together a list of things people can do to help get LENR out of the labs and into people’s homes.

    To read the rest of the story you go here:
    http://shutdownrossi.com/
    .
    Gary Wright

    • Dale G. Basgall Reply

      June 19, 2012 at 5:39 pm

      Gary it seems that anyone with the potential to experiment that was interested from the onset when this was disclosed to the public as a new energy source that used compressed hydrogen and nickel would be enticed to experiment and see for themselves.

      I have experienced what you claim in your statement regarding the Rossi name. I called a local machine shop, eighth axis which has machinery to cut the parts easily for a reactor experiment but he said he would not sign a non disclosure because we stole the idea from Rossi so there was no conversation past that point with him. But I believe this is exactly what Mr. Rossi had in mind and it’s more like first to market instead of producing back then. Anyway it is what it is so to speak and Rossi pulled off advertisement beyond normal thinking by knowing when someone actually develops LENR he will have the upper edge on the market by saying “it’s all mine I told you”. To say the least Italy has no business ethics and they will soon fail due to their lies and continued game of crying wolf. People like that have minds that will prevent them from enjoying what they may receive from the claims they have made without any evidence that they were actually telling us even half truths.

      The rehash of this same info and comment can be viewed in the archives here that date back to July of 2011, it’s just that some new people that just got involved with e-cat news arent aware of. Most of the recent comments are re hash from a year ago and can be found in the archive comments here on this site.

  18. Robert Munson Reply

    June 19, 2012 at 8:10 pm

    And Gary your helping sooooooo much with all your positives on the subject. When is your LENR device going to be tested? And god forbid what if u get excess heat then what??? Youll have to shut up!

    • Dale G. Basgall Reply

      June 19, 2012 at 9:30 pm

      That is a sad but factual statement you made ” And god forbid what if u get excess heat then what??? Youll have to shut up!”

      All these guys and I am talking about my experience, start out wanting to help people. Let’s do something that will help humanity and or provide more menas for them to spend money on other things than just gas to get to work and gas to heat the house and gas to cook the food and gas gas gas for everthing to generating electricity.

      It all starts out cool wine and dine and then when things get discovered the finaciers usually always swear everyone to secrecy and keep diversified people from one another. It always becomes a secret and that’s for a couple different reasons.

      First of all in skunk works from any standpoint no funder wants non appropriate publicity until the discovery anticipated is considered a constant, to save face so to speak.

      Another scenario is when 100′s of k is spent on machine work and additional work is required as a mechanic engineer the shackles are placed tightly and you are issued a new Blackberry from the financeir. Nothing you do or publish then makes it past IT.

      Next off are the realizations that what you discover or claim could be worth more than the cash required to make sure you never see the light of day with your information. Again I assume because of money. It’s fact though, if Rossi’s apparatus, “any one of them” produced the slightest in tritium or Gammas of which it must have, we will never know what actually happened and most likely will not here more claims from Rossi or the others currently making progress. This is to big, to disruptive and will surely lead us into the next WW unless it is capped of right now.

      • dsm Reply

        June 19, 2012 at 11:27 pm

        Dale
        .
        In the matter of global power, you are dead right. Read any authoritative books on oil & power (just google those to words together) and it becomes clear the lengths (& wars) countries will go to over energy & the need for it.
        .
        If Rossi was supplying serious tech to the US military he would not be using his fav broadcasting beacon JoNP the way he does.
        .
        The US navy sees the potential of LENR type power being able to replace the massive consumption of oil by their warships & support fleet (massive).
        .
        But, the US pacific fleet (HQ in San Diego) has a serious problem with supply of electricity in and around military establishments in the San Diego region. They are competing with massive consumer demand (I jokingly said several weeks back that the US Navy was going to relocate to Lopez Island off Anacortes near Seattle to solve the San Diego lack of electric power problem :) ).
        .
        So if anyone needed a free energy power generator the Pacific Fleet HQ in S.D. does. But being real, the potential to switch the US navy from oil to LENR power is possible if LENR energy can be scaled (let alone work). But there is one hell of a long way between where LENR is at today before any serious investigation of changing the energy source for the fleet.
        .
        If Rossi had a real world changing energy that somehow he stumbled upon back in 2007, you can bet that the biggest powers in the world would have latched on and gagged him. The NASA visits to Rossi & his visits to them in 2011/2012 were an early exploration of if Rossi had what he said. That would then have filtered through to the US Military (Navy Army & Airforce). But they concluded Rossi was blowing smoke. They (NASA) are on top of all claimants incl Piantelli’a NicHenergy & DGT (plus the other US companies like Blacklight & Brillouin). They know pretty well exactly what each has. The politics of the potential dictate this need to be that close.
        .
        So the points people have made about Rossi not broadcasting his drip feed extravaganza if he had what he claimed, makes great sense.
        .
        It really seems that Rossi’s 2007 great leap forward, was a little too great to be forward.
        .
        DSM

  19. Robert Munson Reply

    June 19, 2012 at 8:30 pm

    Seems to gw is only defending his investment. Why wouldn’t he? It’s easy for guys who don’t have any skin in the game although I bet a few hard core skeptics probably have some kind of investment I liken them to homophobics the more they rant and rage the more they really are gay. Why waste their valuable;) time. With all this nonsense when we could be talking about plasmNRG I think I remember DSM espousing the idea that their product will be on the market soon. I’ve read Alot about it and there have been no beta tests. I don’t think anyone has ever seen it run for long. DSM can u link me to anything that gives independent verification?

    • dsm Reply

      June 19, 2012 at 10:35 pm

      Robert,

      Sadly as much as I am intrigued by the Papp engine & the PlasmERG version, I believe that Sterling & Hank actually have reports that John Rohner has been less than honest about his success.
      .
      I did lots of searching for info on the Rohner version – watched many videos & came to the conclusion that Rohner did not have a working versions but was trying to convince people he did have. But he has gone as far as having several companies manufacture engine crankcases & gear assemblies.
      .
      I did come across further info that had one of the Rohner Brothers getting in the order of $16 million in investment funds in the mid 2000s but after it was all spent had nothing to show for it.
      .
      The best place to start on any search on PlasmERG is at Sterling’s PESWiki site. The best write up on Papp is the one by Gene Mallove.
      .
      Mallove link = http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html
      .
      PlasmERG = http://plasmerg.com/newengine.html
      .
      Happy reading.
      .
      DSM

  20. Robert Munson Reply

    June 19, 2012 at 8:37 pm

    God please give us something to sink our teeth into other tha each other. Lol

  21. spacegoat Reply

    June 20, 2012 at 5:22 am

    SUMMARY OF FACTS
    Rossi:
    1.Rossi put on public “demonstrations” in 2011.
    2.These events were ridiculed by scientists as being deceptive and inadequate as a demonstration of high excess energy.
    3.Over 1 year has passed.
    4.These events WERE deceptive and inadequate as a demonstration of high excess energy.
    How many ecatnews posters accept 4. as a fact?

    DGT:
    1.A company with employees exists in Greece.
    2.Videos of their “devices” showing size,color and shape were posted on the Internet. :-)

    SUMMARY: COMMON ASSUMPTIONS
    Rossi & DGT:
    1.”Demonstration” events may have attracted investors.
    2. Investors are gullible.
    Comment:We do not know if investors, if they exist, were shown clear and adequate demonstrations in private.
    3.If Rossi & DGT are bogus, then this will damage the LENR field.
    Comment:Too difficult to judge what spin the media moguls will put on LENR following a scam story. Now NASA say the field is worthy, they will probably run with that.

    Amazing how much ecanews content is devoted to common assumptions 1. and 2. ! Please add to the meager facts list if you can.

    • Dale G. Basgall Reply

      June 20, 2012 at 7:57 am

      spacegoat that is a factual post, hard to counter that one, but I see it from a mechanical perspective of facts.

      Hydrogen gas has been used to create a reaction within the vacant chambers embeded in the surface of a matrix of nickel.

      Obsevations made and reports documented in support of the observed reactions ie. Celani, Piantelli, Rossi, Pons, Fleishman, Storms, Zawodny et al. that Rossi had blown out to the intranet to the public prior to any of the others speaking outright stating , “I observed anomolous thermal heat energy” in the reaction results.

      Question, how could a person observe anomolous thermal heat energy if a calorimeter has to be used to verify the claim, it seems physically impossible. Like someone seeing an omeba with their naked eye.

      For your #2 issue regarding investors, they are people that want to believe anyway, like they most likely have felt this was possible for whatever reasoning each person has and then they want to invest because right now anything is a risk to invest in. They are hoping to make big bank from their investment in LENR, like a longshot or actually maybe they want to become involved somehow in promoting LENR, but that’s assumption not fact.

      • spacegoat Reply

        June 20, 2012 at 10:46 am

        Dale.

        The evidence for LENR as a real phenomenon is good, but that is a separate issue.

        Ecat news is about ecats and commercial LENR.

        I congratulate all ecat posters in keeping the football moving over 4 empty facts and 3 assumptions.

    • John Milstone Reply

      June 20, 2012 at 11:33 am

      I would just add that there is “negative” evidence; evidence that should be there if Rossi and/or DGE were legitimate.

      After 18 or more months, and with the alleged mass production and sale only months away, there should be independent evidence somewhere that Rossi is legitimate. There is none. There is still only posts on Rossi’s blog.

      For example: Last October, Rossi claimed to have CE certification (LINK). Has anyone seen evidence of this? I would have thought a CE certification would be a public record.

    • John Milstone Reply

      June 20, 2012 at 1:49 pm

      4.These events WERE deceptive and inadequate as a demonstration of high excess energy.

      How many ecatnews posters accept 4. as a fact?

      I think it’s clear that the tests were inadequate to demonstrate that Rossi really has something.

      I think that THIS video is pretty compelling evidence of fraud (with Mat Lewan’s knowledge and support).

      At 3:08, Lewan walks around the corner to video the output from the E-Cat. At first, it is clear that there is no steam (no visual sign and no sound of boiling). Lewan, who had been speaking loudly and clearly throughout the video, suddenly mumbles what sounds like “Sorry, could have steam?” (at 3:10).

      Then, just about 2 seconds later, there is suddenly the indications of steam (the surface of the water in the bucket starts moving, and there is loud “bubbling” sounds).

      Then, a few seconds later, Lewan goes back to the E-Cat, and catches Rossi adjusting the heater control, which should have been left untouched for a valid test.

  22. Harry Perini Reply

    June 20, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    A Nobel Prize winner speaks:

    Brian Josephson on Meeting With Andrea Rossi
    May 14, 2012

    With permission I am posting a report written by Brian Josephson, retired professor of physics at Cambridge University, and 1973 Nobel prize winner for physics. Dr. Josephson recently met with Andrea Rossi in Miami.

    By chance I was in Miami recently and took the opportunity to arrange a meeting with Andrea Rossi. Although I had some questions prepared, our meeting was of the nature of an informal chat over lunch rather than a formal interview.

    Rossi talked first of all of his ability to run the e-cat stably at high temperatures, quoting a specific temperature of 600 deg. C rather than simply saying ‘high temperature’ as in recent reports. The present effort is concentrated on making the machinery that will build the e-cats, and the second buyer does not yet at this time have any e-cats to comment on. The promised detailed account of the workings of the e-cat will be given when production is sufficiently advanced and
    patents have been granted, which he anticipates will happen in the next few months (on the question of how genuine all this is, see the end of this report).

    Through our discussions I have come to understand what may underlie some of his apparently perverse behaviour:

    1. In the course of a scientific training one comes to appreciate the difficulties involved in obtaining a reliable result. Rossi’s perspective on experiments seems to be of a more limited kind (perhaps based on the kind of experiments one does in school, where one just carries out some prescribed process and out come the answers), which perhaps explains his impatience with people who criticise his demonstrations and want better ones (his opinion is that whatever experiment one does, people will not be satisfied, so he takes the alternative view that ‘the market will decide’).

    2. The thought of people wanting to steal his secrets seems to weigh heavily on his mind, leading him to be suspicious of proposals by people such as Celani, whom he, in my view inappropriately, characterised as a ‘rival’.

    3. While this did not come up in our discussion, one has to speculate that his paranoid tendency can only have been enhanced by his experience, shared by a number of us, with a particular science reporter whom I will not name here.

    Perhaps this is being naive, but I find it difficult to imagine a conversation with a scammer having proceeded in the way that it did during our meeting, and feel that factors such as those listed above are much the more likely explanation for his behaviour. There is no reason why an inventor should adhere to the standards demanded of scientists and academics.

    Brian Josephson
    11th. May 2012

    • Thicket Reply

      June 20, 2012 at 2:38 pm

      The thing about scammers is that they don’t act like scammers. What do people expect to see in a scammer? Shifty eyes? A nervous twitch? Josephson hit the nail on the head when he admitted that he might be naive.

      A pathological liar shows no signs of lying. It’s folks that are not used to lying, or have morals about lying that display visible behaviours of their lying. Rossi is a cold fish who can state the most outrageous lie with a straight face.

  23. John Milstone Reply

    June 20, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    Josephson hit the nail on the head when he admitted that he might be naive.

    This is true in general for scientists. They are used to dealing with Nature, which may be subtle but doesn’t “cheat”.

    The way scientists eliminate fraud is by replication. If different researchers get the same results, there’s a much better chance that the results are valid.

    That’s one of the reasons Rossi (and to some extent, the entire LENR field) is suspicious is that they refuse to allow such replication.

    Of course, their explanation is that they are acting as businessmen and they don’t want anyone to steal their secrets. That’s fair enough, but then the standard for believing them is that they actually have a real product. No one in the field has met this standard, either.

  24. Harry Perini Reply

    June 20, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    By the way- how many of you posters here have won a Nobel Prize ?

    • John Milstone Reply

      June 20, 2012 at 4:08 pm

      By the way- how many of you posters here have won a Nobel Prize ?

      Great example of “Argument by authority“.

    • Thicket Reply

      June 20, 2012 at 4:17 pm

      What is the connection between having a Nobel prize and being able to tell if someone is lying?

      The answer is nothing unless the prize is related to evaluating human behaviour.

      I have no idea what your point is Harry, except clutching at straws. All Josephson did was listen to ‘Rossi says’. He saw no demonstration, report, analysis or anything remotely related to the validity of the eCat technology. All he had to go on was an informal, personal discussion.

    • General Zaroff Reply

      June 20, 2012 at 4:52 pm

      Harry Perini, I have a Nobel prize in Mathematics and a Fields medal in Quantum Physics. I am one up on Josephson so you can trust me. Let me lay it out for you, here is the opinion of one of the most distinguished scientists on the planet:

      1. Rossi is a scam.
      2. Defkalion is a scam.
      3. LENR as a whole is a flim-flam industry.

      Now, you will surely demand ‘General Zaroff, prove you have the credentials and are as qualified as you say you are’. I wish I could, but if I were to do that the bright lights of media attention would shine upon me and I really just want to work in peace. However, I have shown Thicket and JNewman my awards, so they can verify that I am as qualified as I say I am.

    • Frank Reply

      June 20, 2012 at 5:13 pm

      By the way – what do you think, how many nobel laureats would call Rossi’s claims ”bullshit” (just in case they would get to hear about Rossi’s ‘science’ and ‘theorie’) ?

    • dsm Reply

      June 20, 2012 at 10:11 pm

      Harry,
      .
      Nobel prize doesn’t translate into another field. Rossi is playing up to Josephson in the same way he did Essen & Kullander until they realized what he was up to.
      .
      Case in point: The Papp engine & Nobel winner Richard P Feynman.
      .
      http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html
      .
      Two Explosions, One Death
      Apart from the intense contemporary work to resurrect the Papp engine in its full cycling functionality and the independent certification test in 1983 (see p. 9), what other proof is there that Papp’s engine was for real? Sad to say, this evidence is the death of one person and the severe injury of three others at a public demonstration of the engine on November 18, 1968 in Gardena, California. At that event, the engine exploded with an evident energy release that no internal combustion engine could touch. Read the eyewitness testimony of engineer Cecil Baumgartner (p. 31) in my interview with him this year. He was representing the top management of the TRW aerospace corporation that day. The previous month (on October 27, 1968) Baumgartner and others had observed one of the detonation cylinders of the engine test fired in the California desert. In full public view, just a few cubic centimeters of noble gas had been admitted with a hypodermic needle to the sparking chamber, and this made the thick steel-walled chamber peel back like a banana when the device was electrically triggered. The collaborating observers from the Naval Underseas Warfare Laboratory (as the Pasadena, California lab was then called), who attended the desert test, had earlier sealed the chamber so that Papp or others could not insert illicit explosives as part of a hoax. Their names, according to Baumgartner, were: William White, Edmund Karig, and James Green.

      Feynman’s Mistakes and the Recovery
      But at the public meeting the next month at which the fatality occurred (see the local newspaper account of the fatality and injuries-p. 30) was Caltech physicist Richard P. Feynman (1918-1988), who had worked on the Manhattan atomic bomb project in World War II. Before even arriving at the demonstration, Feynman assumed that the Papp engine, whose operation he was about to witness, had to be part of an elaborate hoax. We know this because he recounted his reactions during the episode in his widely circulated internet account touted by the “skeptic” community (see “Mr. Papf’s (sic) Perpetual Motion Machine,” p. 29).

      But here is the central problem with Feynman’s analysis (which has many other errors of fact and logic embedded in it): There was a court action against Feynman by Papp and his backer, Don Roser of Environetics, Inc., as a result of Feynman’s inept attempt to disprove the Papp engine with his unauthorized pulling of an electric control-circuit wire that Feynman egregiously imagined had to be powering the engine. It was unfortunate for Feynman that the wire’s gauge was far too thin even had there been a secret electric motor within the retrofit Volvo engine. Furthermore, as you will read, the engine kept running even after the flimsy wire was removed. Feynman asserted that Papp most likely had deliberately planned to blow up his own engine to avoid subsequent discovery of the “fraud”! And, Feynman acknowledges that there was an out-of-court settlement with Caltech. Surely, had there ever been the slightest piece of evidence that conventional explosives blew up the Papp engine that day, Caltech would most certainly not have had to settle. Papp would soon have been charged with manslaughter, no doubt, and Feynman would surely have cited this evidence publicly. He was not one to shrink from dramatic gestures. Caltech also had the motive and the means to skewer Papp with the kind of evidence that is routinely gathered by police departments and crime labs following explosion accidents.

      However, all records of the investigation into the accident appear to have vanished down some kind of a memory hole. I believe they exist somewhere, but we have not been able— yet— to obtain them. On June 29, 1998, Caltech’s very helpful Associate Archivist, Shelley Erwin, faxed me: “Well, the mysterious affair with Mr. Papp/Papf continues to remain mysterious. I have found nothing in the Feynman papers that refers to it. Nor is there any obvious reference to Mr. Papp or the lawsuit in administrative or publicity papers from the time. We do not have a clippings file for the 1960s, so that is one type of resource I did not investigate. . .I think I have done all I can here, without any useful result. We would be interested to know how your search comes out— if indeed this is a true account. I wish I knew.”

  25. Al Potenza Reply

    June 20, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    “…his opinion is that whatever experiment one does, people will not be satisfied, so he takes the alternative view that ‘the market will decide…”
    -

    What Josephson overlooks or doesn’t know is that this is classic rationalization for free energy scammers. And the day the market will decide is always in the tantalizing near future. “Soon!”
    -

    “The thought of people wanting to steal his secrets seems to weigh heavily on his mind, leading him to be suspicious of proposals by people such as Celani, whom he, in my view inappropriately, characterised as a ‘rival’”
    -

    One can’t steal secrets in a black box evaluation. But what if one could? That’s what patents are for. Patents are effective from the day they are filed, not the day they are granted. If the invention is novel and works, patents MUST be granted by law.

    Anyway, what does Rossi think will happen to his secrets after he has sold even one of his so-called megawatt plants which is nothing but a collection of individual ecats which the new owner can take apart and analyze?

    The other point Josephson alludes to, oh so coyly, is that Krivit somehow mistreated Rossi. Krivit simply showed Rossi up for what he is and reported what he saw. Krivit knew no secret and revealed no secret unless you consider that Rossi is likely to be scamming to be a secret.

    So basically, this letter from Josephson is nonsense. I don’t care what prize he won in the past. It’s plain garbage.

    Did Josephson ask Rossi to see the factory? Did he ask Rossi to produce one of those working ecats and show it making tons of steam? Did he ask to speak to a customer? Of course not. Well, WHY NOT?

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