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Defkalion and Rossi Stir

May 14, 2012

Kudos to my good friend, Frank at e-catworld for his interview with Andrea Rossi. It is well worth your time.

After a period of relative silence from both major players in the game, Defkalion also made an appearance in the shape of a ‘progress’ pdf.

As interesting as both contributions are, for me, there is not enough substance to substantially alter my stance. Hope remains but I urge potential investors to caution unless they are given definitive (albeit private) proof. I look forward to such proof coming our way but until it does, my position stands.

For those who have followed eCatNews for some time, my increased caution is evident. This shift is made with a heavy heart and a recognition that not everything points to the supremacy of the sceptics. While the lack of definitive proof and the obfuscation by both Defkalion GT and Andrea Rossi mirror the likes of Steorn, that alone does not point to proof of foul play.

It is instructive to look at the case of Starlite. Created by English inventor Maurice Ward around the time of the Pons and Fleischmann announcement, Starlite is a plastic that can be painted onto any surface to insulate it from extreme heat. Able to withstand thousands of degrees Celsius, it has never made it to market. No one doubts its reality. It is far easier to demonstrate the effect while protecting the ip than the eCat. It is reasonable to point out that, unlike Starlite,  the eCat has not undergone independent testing but that does not detract from the point I am trying to make here. Much is made of Andrea Rossi’s behavior but such attacks are unsophisticated in the light of further investigation. The most anyone can accuse the eCat of is being unproven. That is why we should be cautious and wait but not accuse. Ward’s paranoia was not unfounded but, taken to excess, the effect can be crippling. Sometimes a genius can act in ways that do not make sense to those of us on the wrong side of the curtain.

We may yet learn that Andrea Rossi is such a genius navigating his way through an impossible maze of conflicting priorities. Right now, the pattern fits both Starlite and Steorn and the latter is not flattering. I remain a LENR optimist and for that reason hold out that we may have another Starlite here. While that invention was astounding, its potential for change is dwarfed by the eCat. This is why you should remain suspicious of anyone telling you that the chance of Rossi being real is zero.

Keep an open mind – unless someone is asking you to open your wallet. It was in learning that one person at least appears to have invested serious money in this venture without due diligence that I took a step back.

Hope is not enough to jump with two feet but it is still there.

Posted by on May 14, 2012. Filed under Defkalion,Rossi. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

674 Responses to Defkalion and Rossi Stir

  1. buffalo

    May 22, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    well if these lenr pioneers are spending money on patents there must b sumtin to it.patents dont come cheap,especially world patents can cost in the millions.

  2. Shane D.

    May 22, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    If this doesn’t give the skeptics pause then nothing will:

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/electricity-generated-from-water-blacklight-power-announces-validation-of-its-scientific-breakthrough-in-energy-production-2012-05-22

    Complete with multiple independent verification of excess energy. The race is on! Ecat/ Hyperion … meet your new competitor CIHT.

    • Al Potenza

      May 22, 2012 at 4:23 pm

      The report is entirely claims. There is no new data that I could see. I looked on the company web site and it’s directly from a news release by the company which seems to be largely more propaganda in support of new funding initiatives by the company.

      Here’s the original:

      http://www.blacklightpower.com/press/052212-2/

      When someone tests the whole cycle of power production and regeneration of the starting materials, let us know.

      BLP says: “BlackLight’s continuously operating, power-producing system converts ubiquitous H2O (water) vapor directly into electricity, oxygen, and a new, more stable form of Hydrogen called Hydrino, which releases 200 times more energy than directly burning hydrogen,”


      OK. So if the process makes hydrino, how come they don’t package and provide some hydrino for some credible institution to study and characterize (not to mention write papers about)? And I don’t mean Rowan University which is funded by BLP to endorse their claims.

      Far as I know, the big flaw in BLP’s claims is that nobody except BLP has ever seen, handled or tested all those hydrino things that the process is supposed to make. If they’re making hydrino, they need to prove that along with publishing the test protocol and the data for the verification of their power making claims.

      • Shane D.

        May 22, 2012 at 4:29 pm

        Dr. K.V. Ramanujachary, Rowan University Meritorious Professor of Chemistry and Biochemistry. “BlackLight’s CIHT electrochemical cell harnesses this fundamentally new primary energy source as electrical output by using a catalyst to cause hydrogen atoms of water molecules to transition to a lower-energy, Hydrino state, resulting in a release of energy that is intermediate between chemical and nuclear energies, and a nonpolluting product,” said Dr. Ramanujachary, who conducted one of the validation studies. “The CIHT cells constantly output stable, very high-gain electrical power for more than a month, with H2O as the only source of fuel for the process. The trace H2O vapor was supplied by a water source, or alternatively, it was extracted directly from the air, resulting in generation of electricity from water alone. This process and system that I have confirmed is truly exceptional.”

        W. Henry Weinberg, who was a professor of Chemical Engineering, Chemistry and Applied Physics at California Institute of Technology for eighteen years, a professor of Chemical Engineering, Chemistry and Materials Science at University of California, Santa Barbara for six years, and co-founder and CTO of Symyx Technologies for 13 years. “It would be irrational not to be very skeptical, and I was extremely skeptical. However, after having reviewed Dr. Mills classical theory, participated in experimental designs and execution, and having reviewed vast amounts of other data BLP produced, I have found nothing that warrants rejection of their extraordinary claims, and I encourage aggressive optimization and fast track development of a scaled up prototype,” said Dr. Weinberg. “To be able to use hydrogen from water as a cheap and nonpolluting source of power would represent one of the most important technological breakthroughs in history.”

        Dr. Terry Copeland, former manager of product development for several electrochemical and energy companies including DuPont Company and Duracell. “BLP has successfully fabricated and tested CIHT cells capable of producing net electrical output up to 50 times that input to maintain the process,” said Dr. Copeland. “Some cells have produced steady power for over one month. The power generation is consistent with Dr. Mills’ theory of energy release resulting from Hydrino formation. No other source of energy could be identified. The CIHT cell will use cheap, abundant, nontoxic, commodity chemicals, with no apparent long-term supply issues that might preclude commercial, high volume manufacturing. The capital cost of the CIHT cell based on optimization of the cell dimensions is estimated to be under $100/kW compared to at least ten times that for fuel cells that further require a source of hydrogen or hydrogen gas and a fuel infrastructure.”

        Dr. James Pugh, Director of Technology at The ENSER Corporation. “Representatives from the ENSER Corporation witnessed the assembly and operation of multiple CIHT cells, and the results showed excess electrical energy, up to 100 times that used to maintain the process in cells run as long as sixty days,” said Dr. Pugh. “There is no apparent difficulty in assembling single cell and multi-cell units, in a production scale environment. By carefully designing and optimizing the CIHT cell, a one-liter volume could generate 3.3 kW. This is greater than that necessary for motive as well as stationary electrical power applications.”

        • Paul Z

          May 22, 2012 at 11:33 pm

          Question: could the Blacklight Product be considred as a form of cold Fusion ?

          • dsm

            May 23, 2012 at 12:55 am

            Not according to Mills.

            His hydrino theory relates to H atoms in a particular environment & configuration being made to drop below ground state (now called hydrinos) & this is where the controversy starts, but read this here …

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklight_Power

            EXCERPT
            Mills claims that chemicals, under controlled experiments, may react catalytically with atomic hydrogen to generate an “ultraviolet plasma”. The company claims that the special plasma byproducts predicted by GUT-CP, called “hydrinos”, have been experimentally observed to have an energy state below what quantum mechanics refers to as the ground state of hydrogen.[3]

            Mills first announced his hydrino state theory on April 25, 1991 in a press conference in Lancaster, as an explanation for the cold fusion phenomena that had been revealed in 1989. According to Mills, no fusion was actually happening in the cells: all the effects would be caused by the hydrogen atoms which shrunk as they fell to a state lower than the ground state of hydrogen. The increased proximity between the shrunk atoms would cause them to fuse sporadically. Some of those atoms would be deuterium atoms (a hydrogen atom with one extra neutron), which would explain why there were occasional readings of neutrons. No experimental evidence was offered by Mills, and his claim was ignored by the scientific community.[1][6][35][36] Mills claims that much of standard particle physics, while having experimental validation, should be rejected due to its reliance on overfitting.[37]

      • Shane D.

        May 22, 2012 at 4:38 pm

        Al says: “Far as I know, the big flaw in BLP’s claims is that nobody except BLP has ever seen, handled or tested all those hydrino things that the process is supposed to make”……

        Recently, the prestigious European Physical Journal D selected as a highlighted article, the Company’s results of the predicted characteristic high-energy light emission from hydrogen forming Hydrinos using a high-voltage pinched pulsed plasma source that further reported the replication of this signature by CfA spectroscopists at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics (CfA) under a study contracted by GEN3 Partners. The Physical Journal D article and other supporting articles also are available on BlackLight’s website.

        • Al Potenza

          May 22, 2012 at 4:42 pm

          That’s not what I mean. If their process makes “hydrino”, I want them to provide “hydrino” for anyone to test. And I want to see the test results on what is supposed to be an entirely new type of matter.

          OK, the process makes hydrino. What are the physical properties (density, melting point, boiling point, spectroscopic analysis, etc. etc. etc.) of hydrino? Who did the work? Where is it published? If the stuff was real, there would be dozens of prestigious places who’d want to test it.

      • GreenWin

        May 22, 2012 at 4:44 pm

        Al Povero… you are Exhibit 1A of a [paid] skeptopath. Explain the soft X-Ray emissions in this paper if not from some (unknown) form of H2…

        http://www.blacklightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/papers/SoftXRay.pdf

        Skeptics are welcome to reproduce the experiment – how about it Al??

        • John Milstone

          May 22, 2012 at 5:40 pm

          And where was this paper published (other than Blacklight’s web site)?

          • Methusela

            May 22, 2012 at 6:26 pm

            And here’s exhibit 1B 🙂

        • GreenWin

          May 22, 2012 at 6:10 pm

          Actually Hoady – Mills’ earlier paper covering the same essential experiment and result is published here:

          The European Physical Journal D – Atomic, Molecular, Optical and Plasma Physics, 2011, Volume 64, Number 1, Page 63

          But where it’s published does not obviate your need to challenge in detail why the experiments do not prove an H2 transition to lower ground state H as Mills theory predicts.

      • John Milstone

        May 22, 2012 at 5:14 pm

        This is the company that claims to have, years ago, sold their devices to power generation companies, although no such company has ever stepped forward to acknowledge that they actually have a working device.

        I find it interesting that they keep recycling their “breakthrough” press release, which dates back to the early 1990s, if not earlier.

        Their press release is no more impressive than the ongoing list “Rossi Says” blog entries.

        • Shane D.

          May 22, 2012 at 5:35 pm

          John,

          “no independent verification”… how many times we believers have heard that from you skpetics.

          Now you get just that with Blacklights CIHT and you dismiss it… say what!

          You guys have buried your heads so far in the sand there is no amount of proof that will extract it.

          • John Milstone

            May 22, 2012 at 5:42 pm

            Please point us to a source, other than Blacklight’s web site for confirmation of any of these claims.

            A credible source, please (i.e. Sterling Allan’s numerous web sites aren’t credible).

    • Thicket

      May 22, 2012 at 5:49 pm

      Blacklight Power has been doing this for over 20 years. I know more about BLP than I care to.

      Their list of supposed supporters has certainly dropped in quality. Previous lists were much more impressive. I stopped following BLP about 1.5 years ago, but I recognize two of the losers on the current list.

      It’s interesting that BLP continues to attract new affectionados who are clueless about the repetitious claims that have never ever amounted to anything. BLP has been selling the story that they’re going to deliver something ‘soon’ for 20+ years. That some still believe BLP is a testament to the gullibility of humanity.

      I remember NASA research, funding by two major electrical utilities, ‘independent’ studies that BLP paid their cronies to perform, at least seven commercial contracts for hydrino-based power generation which amounted to nothing, promised hydrino samples that were never delivered, scathing denunciations by four Nobel laureates, simple arithmetic errors in the bombastic tome ‘Grand Unified Theory of Classical Physics’, a molecular simulation program called Millsian that had properties of known compounds hard coded in the program coupled with a useless simulation program for compounds not in the data base, a self-published paper from Rowan University that was withdrawn after glaring errors were spotted, etc. etc.

      Shane; You seem to be a nice person, but you have a pathological predisposition to believe and extol the claims of the most obvious bullcrap schemes. I hope you never invest in any of them.

      • dsm

        May 22, 2012 at 10:05 pm

        Thicket
        .
        Sadly you have it – that Blacklight press release says at best 10watts !!!
        .
        Then a promise of something bigger by year end
        .
        This is why LENR being scalable is such an issue.
        .
        DSM

    • JNewman

      May 22, 2012 at 6:27 pm

      Doesn’t the fact that Blacklight has been at this for more than 20 years and has burned through $75 million give you pause? I mean, what are they waiting for?

    • Jerry Z

      May 23, 2012 at 12:24 am

      BLACKLIGHT POWER > COLD FUSION = In a review of cold fusion research, Edmund Storms, a cold fusion researcher, concluded that the hydrino model provides a possible explanation for cold fusion.

  3. GreenWin

    May 22, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    CIHT has been around for several years at Blacklight. The difference is willingness to disclose at this stage. The operating temps are half that of typical SOFC – making commercial residential units less safety intensive.

    Note too – Lew Larsen put out a slideshow on… neutronic alchemy, transmutations W -> Au. Really.

    http://www.slideshare.net/lewisglarsen/lattice-energy-llc-lenr-transmutation-networks-can-produce-goldmay-19-2012

    There’s gold in them LENR hills!

    • Al Potenza

      May 22, 2012 at 4:43 pm

      “There’s gold in them LENR hills!”

      Seems to be. As long as investors are willing to give cash based only on claims and questionable experiments.

  4. Mahron - A4 B2

    May 22, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    And so the sad farce continues…

  5. GreenWin

    May 22, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    It is helpful to revisit the pathology called appropriately, skeptopathy.

    “Pathological skepticism; an irrational belief that a phenomenon must be false merely because it is unusual.”

    Lord Haldane, the Minister of War in Britain, said that “the aeroplane will never fly” in 1907. Ironically, this was four years after the Wright Brothers made their first successful flight at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina. After Kitty Hawk, the Wrights flew in open fields next to a busy rail line in Dayton OH for almost an entire year. US authorities refused to come to the demos, while Scientific American published stories about “The Lying Brothers.”

    In 1964, physicist George Zweig proposed the existence of quarks. As a result of this theory, he was rejected for position at major university and considered a “charlatan.” Today, of course, it is an accepted part of standard nuclear model.

    The skeptics use active and angry language, with words like “charlatan,” “ridiculous,” lying,” “crackpot,” and “pseudoscience.”

    This is partly due to a natural psychological effect, known as “fear of the unknown” or “fear of change.” Psychologists who have studied human behavior have more academic sounding names for it, such as the “Mere Exposure Effect”, “Familiarity Principle”, or Neophobia.

    But with treatment and consistent exposure to good experimental results, there is always hope for skeps… don’t give up.

    • JNewman

      May 22, 2012 at 6:21 pm

      Yes, being a skeptic is truly a miserable life. Far better to believe every announcement of a world-changing energy source. By my estimate, there is at least one such announcement every two weeks. So all our problems have been solved at least 25 times in the past year alone. What a feel-good state of affairs! Fortunately, actual consequences of any of these breakthroughs are not required for endless joy.

      Poor Thicket is cursed with a decent memory so that the previous earthshaking claims by Blacklight are still familiar to him. Far better to be like the greatful believers here who quickly forget promise after promise by Rossi and Defkalion and eagerly embrace their latest offerings.

      I don’t think that fear of the unknown is the purview of the skeptic. I think that accurate assessment of the known is a bigger factor. But in any case, Mr. Win, please do continue with your psychoanalysis of skeptics. It is marvelously insightful.

    • General Zaroff

      May 22, 2012 at 6:43 pm

      I am one of your skeptopaths. I am still not sold on the whole aeroplane thing, and LENR and cold fusion are only slightly more credible to me. I refuse to believe in faster than light travel, at least not until we encounter a race known as the Formics with their Ansible network and an AI named Jane capable of taking people ‘outside’.

      Every time someone posts a new claim about an energy revolution just around the corner, I scramble over to my trusted bucket of sand and bury my head. I emerge with renewed confidence in my beliefs and a sense of certainty that the energy revolution will not happen today. My only problem with this approach is that my keyboard gets all jammed up with sand.

    • Thicket

      May 22, 2012 at 8:00 pm

      Can I get in on the psychology bandwagon? I personally don’t have any psychology education but my wife has a university degree in it. She’s been practicing psychology on me since 1978. That qualifies me as an expert, right?

      The following is from the psychology of denialism aka the psychology of crankery.
      ———————-
      A suspicious person is a person who has something on his mind. He looks at the world with fixed and preoccupying expectation, and he searches repetitively, and only, for confirmation of it. He will not be persuaded to abandon his suspicion of some plan of action based on it. On the contrary, he will pay no attention to rational arguments except to find in them some aspect or feature that actually confirms his original view. Anyone who tries to influence or persuade a suspicious person will not only fail, but also, unless he is sensible enough to abandon his efforts early will, himself, become an object of the original suspicious idea.
      ————————–

      • Thicket

        May 22, 2012 at 8:16 pm

        This psychology stuff is fun. Here’s another one.

        Dunning-Kruger Effect

        The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.

        Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:

        1.tend to overestimate their own level of skill;

        2.fail to recognize genuine skill in others;

        3.fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;

        • Thicket

          May 22, 2012 at 8:24 pm

          Continuing on

          Credulity:

          Credulity is a state of willingness to believe in one or many people or things in the absence of reasonable proof or knowledge.

          Credulity is not simply belief in something that may be false. The subject of the belief may even be correct, but a credulous person will believe it without good evidence.

          The words gullible and credulous are commonly used as synonyms. Goepp & Kay (1984) state that while both words mean “unduly trusting or confiding”, gullibility stresses being duped or made a fool of, suggesting a lack of intelligence, whereas credulity stresses uncritically forming beliefs, suggesting a lack of skepticism. Jewell (2006) states the difference is a matter of degree: the gullible are “the easiest to deceive”, while the credulous are “a little too quick to believe something, but they usually aren’t stupid enough to act on it.”

          Yamagishi, Kikuchi & Kosugi (1999) characterize a gullible person as one who is both credulous and naïve. Greenspan (2009) stresses the distinction that gullibility involves an action in addition to a belief, and there is a cause-effect relationship between the two states: “gullible outcomes typically come about through the exploitation of a victim’s credulity.

          Pseudoscience is a methodology, belief, or practice that is claimed to be scientific, or that is made to appear to be scientific, but which does not adhere to an appropriate scientific methodology, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, or otherwise lacks scientific status. Professor Paul DeHart Hurd argued that a large part of gaining scientific literacy is “being able to distinguish science from pseudo-science such as astrology, quackery, the occult, and superstition”.

          • Thicket

            May 22, 2012 at 8:36 pm

            And finally, since I’ve reached my five post quota for the day, here are psychological traits used by manipulators. Andrea Rossi has used most of these traits

            * Lying: It is hard to tell if somebody is lying at the time they do it, although often the truth may be apparent later when it is too late. One way to minimize the chances of being lied to is to understand that some personality types (particularly psychopaths) are experts at the art of lying and cheating, doing it frequently, and often in subtle ways.

            * Lying by omission: This is a very subtle form of lying by withholding a significant amount of the truth. This technique is also used in propaganda.

            * Denial: Manipulator refuses to admit that he or she has done something wrong.

            * Rationalization: An excuse made by the manipulator for inappropriate behavior. Rationalization is closely related to spin.

            * Minimization: This is a type of denial coupled with rationalization. The manipulator asserts that his or her behavior is not as harmful or irresponsible as someone else was suggesting, for example saying that a taunt or insult was only a joke.

            * Selective inattention or selective attention: Manipulator refuses to pay attention to anything that may distract from his or her agenda, saying things like “I don’t want to hear it”.

            * Diversion: Manipulator not giving a straight answer to a straight question and instead being diversionary, steering the conversation onto another topic.

            * Evasion: Similar to diversion but giving irrelevant, rambling, vague responses, weasel words.

            * Covert intimidation: Manipulator throwing the victim onto the defensive by using veiled (subtle, indirect or implied) threats.

            * Guilt tripping: A special kind of intimidation tactic. A manipulator suggests to the conscientious victim that he or she does not care enough, is too selfish or has it easy. This usually results in the victim feeling bad, keeping them in a self-doubting, anxious and submissive position.

            * Shaming: Manipulator uses sarcasm and put-downs to increase fear and self-doubt in the victim. Manipulators use this tactic to make others feel unworthy and therefore defer to them. Shaming tactics can be very subtle such as a fierce look or glance, unpleasant tone of voice, rhetorical comments, subtle sarcasm. Manipulators can make one feel ashamed for even daring to challenge them. It is an effective way to foster a sense of inadequacy in the victim.

            * Playing the victim role (“poor me”): Manipulator portrays him- or herself as a victim of circumstance or of someone else’s behavior in order to gain pity, sympathy or evoke compassion and thereby get something from another. Caring and conscientious people cannot stand to see anyone suffering and the manipulator often finds it easy to play on sympathy to get cooperation.

            * Vilifying the victim: More than any other, this tactic is a powerful means of putting the victim on the defensive while simultaneously masking the aggressive intent of the manipulator.

            * Playing the servant role: Cloaking a self-serving agenda in guise of a service to a more noble cause, for example saying he is acting in a certain way for “obedience” and “service” to God or a similar authority figure.

            * Seduction: Manipulator uses charm, praise, flattery or overtly supporting others in order to get them to lower their defenses and give their trust and loyalty to him or her.

            * Projecting the blame (blaming others): Manipulator scapegoats in often subtle, hard to detect ways.

            * Feigning innocence: Manipulator tries to suggest that any harm done was unintentional or did not do something that they were accused of. Manipulator may put on a look of surprise or indignation. This tactic makes the victim question his or her own judgment and possibly his own sanity.

            * Feigning confusion: Manipulator tries to play dumb by pretending he or she does not know what you are talking about or is confused about an important issue brought to his attention.

            * Brandishing anger: Manipulator uses anger to brandish sufficient emotional intensity and rage to shock the victim into submission. The manipulator is not actually angry, he or she just puts on an act. He just wants what he wants and gets “angry” when denied.

          • dsm

            May 22, 2012 at 10:18 pm

            Thicket
            .
            You nailed a few familiar posters very well there 🙂
            .
            But where is the paragraph about those who keep calling on God or using biblical (pseudo authoritative) quotes as if the words some how give them power & proofs ?
            .
            DSM

  6. Shane D.

    May 22, 2012 at 6:10 pm

    Blacklight has provided independent verification from outside, neutral observers. They did not verify the neutrino theory -although Blacklight provides reference to a study that supports the theory, but these scientists from various backgrounds did confirm excess and continous energy production, confirmation of the production and scalability of the modules.

    Otherwords they observed the CIHT cells being built and then operated with power output well above input.

    Some of you are arguing the Hydrino theory which isn’t an issue here other then speculation, where instead you should be looking at the results. Sounds like that tired old popeye argument: no proven theory, so all experiment results must therefore be in error.

    Get over it skeptics… CIHT happens.

  7. Pekka Janhunen

    May 22, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    Rossi aside, but I’m sceptical of BLP. At least the hydrino theory part sounds impossible, the idea that proton and electron could form some lower energy state is in contradiction with single-particle QM, and the idea that such hydrinos would be responsible for dark matter would run into other problems as well (such as: their size would then be around 3 pm which is small but not negligible so they would still interact electromagnetically with matter, plus that the formation of such dark matter hydrinos would have released a lot of energy at early history of universe which is not seen observationally).

    The observational verification claims are not particularly strong either, as many already pointed out. The selected short quotations do not sound too convincing. They would be more convincing if they would come from the persons themselves and be accompanied by a fuller report, data and possibly interview.

    I consider it likely that they either have nothing or that they have perhaps some form of LENR.

    • spacegoat

      May 22, 2012 at 7:03 pm

      • Pekka Janhunen

        May 22, 2012 at 7:35 pm

        I did now. The power level in the reports seems to be 2-3 milliwatts. As said, why not it might be LENR that they see, similar to Nanor.

      • John Milstone

        May 22, 2012 at 8:01 pm

        I briefly reviewed the last report (Enser Corp., Pinellas Park FL) from just last month, and they are reporting low milliwatt levels.

        And yet, 2 years ago, they announced licensing a 750 MW generator. (LINK) No signs of any actual energy generation. Not even a confirmation from the customer that they signed into this agreement.

        And yet, 3 years ago, they claimed a sixth customer (LINK). This one is for 8 GW! Again, no signs that the customer has ever generated a single watt of power, or for that matter, has ever heard of Mills or Blacklight Power.

        And yet, 4 years ago, they claimed to have a 50,000 Watt generator. (LINK)

        Finally, here’s a nice summary of Mills and Blacklight from 2005: LINK

  8. spacegoat

    May 22, 2012 at 6:55 pm

    Regarding Blacklight metadata, as DSM has pointed out, their management is impressively experienced and authentic in business. http://www.blacklightpower.com/business/management/

    As DSM says, are these normally acute business people ALL scammers or scammed by the inventor?

    Secondly, as Shane D pointed out, the scientists who produced the 6 validation reports also look impressive
    http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/validation-reports/

    Personally, the skepticism I have absorbed by osmosis from this site over the past year means that I am left neutral by this news reported in a Wall Street press organ. Oh the power of repetition.

    When does skepticism stop? When popeye is converted? Should Dick Smith be sent in?
    Of course some video, live streaming of boiling an egg… sorry, making a cup of tea would help.

    • spacegoat

      May 22, 2012 at 7:11 pm

      Information regarding the post-testing amount invested by the testers would be interesting. Surely, if one had access to testing the technology that will “save the world”, if the tests were positive, the same day one would mortgage one’s house to invest.

      Does BL have no corporate investors?

      At this time I need a push in any given direction by believers/non-believers, or a witty comment by the General.

      No worries. Just read Thickets comment above.

    • Mahron - A4 B2

      May 22, 2012 at 7:13 pm

      It will stops when It makes a boat cross the atlantic.

    • General Zaroff

      May 22, 2012 at 7:16 pm

      For some of us, skepticism will only stop when our higher brain functions are compromised. With or without popeye, the stalwart members of our tribe will continue to paint our faces blue, bay at the moon, and, if time permits, punch holes in all the BS claims around here.

      So, unless you can provide a full moon or a swift blow to the base of the skull, don’t get your hopes up.

      • spacegoat

        May 22, 2012 at 7:40 pm

        Thank you General.
        A much needed dose of wit.

      • GreenWin

        May 22, 2012 at 7:53 pm

        Generale – Haloperidol is effective for baying moon syndrome. The swift blows arrive from Poppee-isms – gratefully under strong sedation for the moment.

    • dsm

      May 22, 2012 at 10:45 pm

      Spacegoat
      .
      I’ll admit to saying that the evidence for DGT (I didn’t mention Blacklight even if I am impressed with Mills) is that they were founded has a legitimate business.
      .
      And any criticisms I made of DGT in the past (and now) relate to them claiming they invented a best-of-breed LENR reactor in a few months between Jan 2011 & Oct 2011 (that is pure fairy story).
      .
      But because DGT was a legitimate business brought together by the Greek govt & with a comprehensive business plan and large funding, they must be given a fair opportunity to show they do act like a legitimate business. So what would a Board of Directors do if the primary source of their business success is letting them down badly, they would seek to do a deal with the next best provider they can find.
      .
      It is laughable that they (DGT) as businessmen would believe they could invent the technology themselves in a few weeks. The claims of cloning make no business sense whatsoever if it is going to lead to massive litigation.
      .
      The dubious claim that they could take a spectrum analysis of a sealed eCat and work out the manufacturing of the ‘structure’ of highly complex materials inside – in weeks – and produce a vastly superior LENR reactor instantly is so bizarre that one can be justified looking for evidence of a brain in any one who believes such a yarn. That restated, says that anyone could go build an eCat copy by just getting near one !. eCat by osmosis !.
      .
      It also makes a mockery of the effort currently invested in Ni+H research where the worlds greatest Ni+H researchers can only show milliwatts after 10-20 years honing their expertise.
      .
      DGT without a relationship with an existing multi-disciplinarian LENR researchers simply do not have what they claim. It is as laughable as Rossi claiming he invented his eCat without any reference to Piantelli’s prior work & expertise (Piantelli certainly says otherwise). It is not an issue (moral or otherwise) as to if he did base his efforts on Piantelli’s expertise, it is an issue if he denies it which he has done both in his patent & verbally in interviews.
      .
      Anyway – Blacklight’s announcement smacks of ‘me too” at a time when the other players are getting a lot of attention.
      .
      DSM

  9. LCD

    May 22, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    Regarding IVY Matts link
    http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2011/08/16/roy-virgilio-on-piantelli-plus-the-2008-piantelli-hypothesis/

    According to Piantelli’s hypothesis, under the right conditions a H− ion can replace an electron of a transition metal atom, just as a muon replaces an electron in muon-catalyzed fusion. Due to its relatively large mass, the H− ion continually falls to lower electron levels, causing the emission of X-rays and Auger electrons. As it has a net negative charge, there is no Coulomb repulsion to hinder its progress toward the transition metal nucleus. At the lowest level the H− ion is close enough to be captured by the nucleus. After capturing the H− ion, the unstable nucleus releases energy and eventually expels the anion in the form of a proton.

    I can’t imagine the right conditions where an H- ion can essentially act like a heavy electron but the last part where the ion gets close enough to affect the nucleus might be more believable now that we have strong indication that the existence of nuclear halo’s are real.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_nucleus

    One example of a halo nucleus is 11Li which has a half life of 8.6 ms. It decays into 11Be by the emission of an antineutrino and an electron. Its cross-section of 3.16 fm is close to that of 32S, or even more impressively that of 208Pb, both much heavier nuclei.It contains a core of 3 protons and 6 neutrons, and a halo of two independent and loosely bound neutrons.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      May 22, 2012 at 7:42 pm

      I don’t think this is necessarily as crazy as it sounds on first hearing. Of course the obvious problem is that if a H- ion orbits a nucleus at close distance, it experiences a strongly nonuniform electric field of the nucleus (like a tidal force) which tends to tear it apart i.e. separate the protons from the two electrons. Roughly speaking, a H- could be expected to approach the nucleus only down to its own radius, before being torn apart. But maybe the H- can rapidly reassemble itself so that the process can repeat often and eventually catalyse some nuclear reactions. Rossi’s reactor time constant is of order half a year. Within half a year an atom or ion can possibly make quite many trials. I have seen worse theoretical ideas than this one.

      • LCD

        May 23, 2012 at 3:22 pm

        Of course the obvious problem is that if a H- ion orbits a nucleus at close distance, it experiences a strongly nonuniform electric field of the nucleus (like a tidal force) which tends to tear it apart i.e. separate the protons from the two electrons. Roughly speaking, a H- could be expected to approach the nucleus only down to its own radius, before being torn apart.

        yeah that would mean that the negative ion probably has an atomic radius similar to the covalent radius which is likely greater than 25-50pm range.

        Nickel is 149pm.

        Charge radii are in the fm range. So it doesn’t seem likely as you mention that any negative ion of hydrogen is going to make it to the nucleus intact. This is including any nuclear halo data I have seen (which is admittedly limited).

        What I will say is that in a metal lattice it is unknown to me how these parameters change. I mean we think they don’t change much but condensed matter physics IS NOT particle physics so I would be an idiot to think the same rules of thumb apply.

        In the open source lenr project page there is an excerpt from some papers that talk about nuclear halos somewhere in the middle of that long page.
        http://www.opensourcelenr.com/

        Anyways the quote that is intersting to me is this.

        Though excited-state halos exist, the number of well-studied halo states is predominantly limited to a handful of light, weakly-bound nuclei which exhibit the phenomenon in their ground state.

        Perhaps Pekka an excited state nuclear halo exists in Nickel and/or Pd and that’s part of the puzzle. It gives larger than normal charge radii and loosely bound neutrons. All the things you want in a LENR reaction.

  10. Pekka Janhunen

    May 22, 2012 at 8:00 pm

    Another idea that I have thought about. Consider a metal lattice defect or vacancy (a small cavity) which has hydrogen inside. Hydrogen atoms tend to pair into H2 molecules and electrons tend to form pairs, octets etc. But what if there is an odd number of H atoms in the cavity. Could it be that what one gets then is effectively a bunch of H2 molecules and one proton hole which acts like a negatively charged proton mass particle. None of the H2 molecules likes the hole so the hole keeps moving around. Maybe even the hole and electrons become somehow coherent so that the hole acts like a heavy electron which increases the overall density of the molecular bunch inside the lattice defect. Why bulk hydrogen doesn’t do the same is because there each H atom can find a pair without such frustration.

    • GreenWin

      May 22, 2012 at 8:28 pm

      Geometry Pekka. Geometry.

  11. spacegoat

    May 22, 2012 at 9:00 pm

    John Milstone Said:

    “..they are reporting low milliwatt levels.”
    OK, but the science and potential is what counts.

    “here’s a nice summary of Mills and Blacklight from 2005”

    What do you make of the management composition http://www.blacklightpower.com/business/management/ and the recent independent reports http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/validation-reports/ from December 2011 / this year?

    Are all the high caliber management scammers or being scammed?
    Are all the independent testers wrong?
    Is Wall Street Marketwatch crazy to publish BL data for Mom’s and Pops?

    • John Milstone

      May 22, 2012 at 9:24 pm

      OK, but the science and potential is what counts.

      Riiigggttt!

      Ignore the fact that they seem to have gone from a 50KW plant in 2008 to a Milliwatt plant in 2012.

      Ignore the fact that they seem to have spent years making business claims that are totally unfounded and unverified.

      When I see an individual or company that keeps making claims it refuses to back up, I’m not going to waste time worrying about the “science and potential”.

      Rossi has “credible” scientists who have backed up at least some of his claims, and it’s highly likely that he’s a fraud.

      The fact that, at best, BLP is now claiming milliwatts, when a few years ago they were claiming gigawatts is more than suspicious.

      • spacegoat

        May 22, 2012 at 10:15 pm

        So just to be clear, you believe the management were scammed and the demonstrations were rigged.

    • spacegoat

      May 22, 2012 at 10:12 pm

      But all those posts are just verbatim copies of BL’s press release.
      “Naked woman strolls into Ballston stores, gets arrested” makes the news10.com home page but BL does not.

      Similar situation with your other links. Naked women trump LENR every time.

      • GreenWin

        May 23, 2012 at 12:39 am

        Exactly my point. What about the children??

    • Ivy Matt

      May 23, 2012 at 5:41 pm

      In other words, Blacklight’s press release managed to make it onto PR Newswire.

  12. buffalo

    May 22, 2012 at 9:18 pm

    the blacklight cell is real however the hydrino theory is an innocent misunderstanding of whats realy going on which is, in my opinion, thermodynamic imbalances in the entropies of adsorbed hydrogen and gaseous H2.probably a violation of the second law of thermodynamics

  13. GreenWin

    May 22, 2012 at 9:29 pm

    AND that pinnacle of media doubt and conservatism:

    FOX News…http://www.fox8live.com/story/18579608/electricity-generated-from-water-blacklight-power-announces-validation-of-its-scientific-breakthrough-in-energy-production

    Egoat gads… does no one think of the children??

  14. Harry Perini

    May 22, 2012 at 9:34 pm

    Electricity generated from water: BlackLight Power announces validation of its scientific breakthrough in energy production

    This will put Rossi out of business.
    He is too late with his Lenr.

    • artefact

      May 22, 2012 at 10:37 pm

      only if they can get to some KW of power 🙂

  15. daniel maris

    May 22, 2012 at 9:54 pm

    Oh dear, this has turned into Black Tuesday for the sceptics. Not since the Zawodny statement have things looked so bad for them. But there won’t be a Stalinist-style “voluntary retraction” on this occasion.

    Blacklight sound like the scam that refused to disappear, despite the predictions of the sceptics here.

    And it’s marvellous to see the admittedly Heath Robinson style contraption at MIT. It’s enough that it exists and a leading reputable scientist says it is producing excess heat.

    Let’s hope we see more and more good news.

    It is very significant that BLP are getting MSM interest…it’s possible this might snowball.

    • spacegoat

      May 22, 2012 at 10:13 pm

      “Naked woman strolls into Ballston stores, gets arrested” makes the news10.com home page but Blackwater does not.

      Naked women trump LENR. No snowball so far.

  16. Shane D.

    May 22, 2012 at 10:57 pm

    BLP went all out in both quality and quantities of researchers they invited to independently verify their CIHT. Absolutely no chance they could have fooled this group. You just have to ask why they would go to such extremes when only a couple prominent scientists would have sufficed, and the only answer I can think of is that -they know the thing works.

    Also, as some here complain (what else is new) the output was mWs, but at least one scientist mentions how straight forward the scaling up should be to the 3.6kW level. Plus consider that this is straight electricity produced with no conversion penalty required as in the ecat and hyperion. In fact, to me, the thing looks like a fuel cell?

    Anyway; here is the list of teams and individuals:

    1.A California Institute of Technology professor that advises brand name institutional investment firms on technology and business opportunities

    2.Industry expert, Massachusetts Institute of Technology PhD in chemical engineering, that managed R&D for brand name companies including battery and fuel cell product development

    3.A team from a Fortune 500 firm consisting of an expert R&D manager, a PhD physics US DOD advisor, and a PhD chemist with fuel cell expertise

    4.Professor with expertise in materials science that collaborates with world renowned battery and materials science groups

    5.Top-5 Engineering School Professor, California Institute of Technology PhD

    6.Defense company with 25 research electrochemists that manufactures missile batteries for the defense departments

    • spacegoat

      May 23, 2012 at 5:43 am

      The same point occurred to me. J Millstones reply was that yes, all these experts were cheated because the experiments were rigged.

      • John Milstone

        May 23, 2012 at 9:42 am

        Rossi has shown that it’s easy to claim support from legitimate organizations when there is no such thing (UniBo, NI). Such legitimate people or organizations don’t necessarily even know that their names are being used by scammers.

        How many of these experts have come forward to confirm Blacklight’s claims of their support? Or are we relying solely on Blacklight’s say-so?

        I haven’t paid much attention to Blacklight, so maybe I’m all wet on this. However, if Blacklight were legit, I would expect to have seen something tangible from their earlier claims, including the 50,000 Watt generator they claimed to have built in 2008. Maybe it’s sitting in the same warehouse as Rossi’s Megawatt E-Cat?

  17. dsm

    May 22, 2012 at 11:08 pm

    This link is for GreenWin – Frank Ackland seems to have a ban on certain topics/links.

    http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/01/24/university-of-bologna-terminates-relationship-with-rossi/
    .
    Also Dunn, later (in 2012) verified this info re his trip to Rossi.
    http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/10/06/nasa-wont-confirm-relationship-with-rossi-2/
    .

    1) Look at the pic & see if you can figure out who provided it !. 2) Read the 2nd link.
    .

    But as I said elsewhere – no matter what links / evidence you get shown, it will never be enough to dent your obsessive view of Rossi.
    .

    DSM

    • dsm

      May 22, 2012 at 11:17 pm

      GreenWin my friend – show you are more than a pretty face – go find this 🙂
      .
      “On Sept. 5 and 6, a private demonstration of Rossi’s device in Bologna, Italy, took place before a group of visitors: Jim Dunn, the former director of the NASA Northeast Regional Technology Transfer Center and a close associate of Dennis Bushnell, the chief scientist at NASA Langley; John Preston, a Boston investor; and at least one technical expert. The objective of this demonstration was to perform basic due diligence that, if passed, would lead to a second chance at a full-fledged test by NASA.”
      .
      DSM
      .
      PS: Yes this is the same Jim Dunn you claim was never at NASA ! and that you don’t believe ever visited Rossi !!! – please understand how irritating it is when people make claims, demands & statements that show they can’t even do the simplest of simple research !.

      • GreenWin

        May 23, 2012 at 12:53 am

        LOL! I posted the following:

        GreenWin on May 22, 2012 at 2:15 pm

        Your aquaintance Jim DunnE claims in the link you provide to have been the CEO and CTO of the The Center for Technology Commercialization (CTC) in Westborough, Massachusetts…

        Yet CTC’s own website tells us someone named Tom Kennedy has been CEO and President of CTC for the past 13 years… Tom is a former MA State Trooper. CTC is some kind of public fire prevention outfit. There is no mention of a Jim Dunn or anything to do with NASA. I’m sure your Jim DunnE is a fine fellow Doug – but how do you ‘splain his bio claim to this CEO position?

        http://www.ctc.org/

        Again, we believe who we want to believe…

        • dsm

          May 23, 2012 at 1:02 am

          Beg pardon – do we live in the same universe or parallel ones.

          .

          What have you missed about Jim Dunn’s former NASA background ?. What weren’t you able to locate about him ?.
          .
          Cheers
          .
          DSM

          • GreenWin

            May 23, 2012 at 2:39 am

            So your guy Dunn lied about being CEO on his bio… And tried to steal the thunder from the guy who was Director at RTTC. That pretty much eliminates anything either of you have said.

            Nice friends dougee;(

          • dsm

            May 23, 2012 at 3:38 am

            GreenWin
            .
            WTF !
            .
            “My guy ???”
            .
            “Lied about being CEO ???”
            .
            “What BIO – I linked you to James DUNN at PESN website where it stated he had been a former NASA official” ???
            .
            You dredged up all the irrelevant unrelated garbage using your odd research whilst totally ignoring the fact that Jim Dunn was a former senior exec at NASA. Noone cares who the F*** CTC is and what does rambling incoherently about them have to do with Jim Dunn & his NASA career ?.
            .
            You are now keep rambling incoherently about him.
            .
            Read my lips “Jim Dunn was a former senior NASA official !”. “Jim Dunn and Denis Bushnell went with John Preston at Rossi’s invitation, to view the eCat in Bologna on 5th & 6yh of Sept 2011”. That was where this began and should have ended.
            .
            In your pained way you just keep digging a deeper & darker hole for yourself ?
            .
            DSM

          • dsm

            May 23, 2012 at 3:54 am

            GreenWin,
            .
            I am convinced you need a head shot to put you out of your misery.
            .
            Here is the PESN James Dunn link again & please note what it says about NASA
            .
            http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:James_Dunn
            .
            DSM

          • dsm

            May 23, 2012 at 4:12 am

            Now to bury the carcass

            GreenWin – can you tell the difference between
            the Center for Technology Commercialization, in Westborough, MA.
            .
            http://spinoff.nasa.gov/spinoff1997/ttc3.html
            .
            and the mistaken link PESN appear to have used to
            .
            http://ctc.org/
            .
            So you made an utter ass of yourself accusing Jim Dunn of being a liar on an internationally read forum, all because you can’t do your itty bitty homework & boy does it show again and again and again.
            .
            DSM

          • GreenWin

            May 23, 2012 at 9:48 pm

            Kookoo Alert!

        • dsm

          May 23, 2012 at 1:22 am

          GreenWin, if you claim this GreenWin is not you but from a parallel universe or a doppleganger, I’ll rethink my post 🙂
          ***************************************

          GreenWin on May 22, 2012 at 4:44 am

          According to his 2008 bio Jim Dunn was never a “NASA Senior Exec” – he ran his own company called Center for Technology Commercialization CTC, Inc. a security operation involved with Massachusetts State Police. He also claims to have been an NSA consultant.

          He does not appear to be as qualified as Dr. Bushnell to evaluate a nuclear-type reaction such as that in electrochemical and gas loaded LENR cells. But we all believe who we want to believe…
          ***********************************
          Has you Jim Dunn any evidence of visiting Rossi and witnessing an e-cat demo? That might clear things up.
          ***********************************
          .
          Next !.
          .
          DSM
          .
          (And I used to think ransompw was the master at twisting reality & ignoring blunt plain evidence – he now loses 1st place)

          • dsm

            May 23, 2012 at 1:29 am

            PS Ransompw says he is a lawyer so it is normal to expect that from him. In your case, a deeper explanation is needed & Thicket went a long way to providing that.
            .
            D
            .
            (some people are simply time wasters)

    • dsm

      May 22, 2012 at 11:28 pm

      And just in case your next post is that Jim Dunn is a phantom because you have never seen a pic of him, try these (I took them myself).
      .
      http://internetage.ws/cartercopters/pics_osh01_5.htm
      .
      PS The Hoot Gibson shown with Jim, is a NASA astronaut.
      .
      GreenWin you really need to do some serious research before you keep shooting your feet off with your repeated naive remarks & claims.
      .
      DSM

      • Shane D.

        May 22, 2012 at 11:40 pm

        Hoot Gibson; now there was a story, but that is off topic so I’ll wait til one boring night after having a few.

        I flew with him at TWA before he retired. Bum rap.

        • dsm

          May 22, 2012 at 11:57 pm

          He looked a pretty colorful character 🙂 – I never got to talk to him at length though, was too busy doing demo talks.

          What is the nature of your story even if you save it for later 🙂

          DSM

    • dsm

      May 23, 2012 at 12:07 am

      PS GreenWin
      .
      I deny this link contains anything about me.
      .
      http://www.navysbir.com/acat-poc1.htm
      .
      DSM

    • GreenWin

      May 23, 2012 at 1:28 am

      Frank prefers to publish rational people dougles;)

      • dsm

        May 23, 2012 at 2:07 am

        But GreenWin are you sure ?
        .
        He publishes your posts doesn’t he !.
        .
        D

  18. dsm

    May 23, 2012 at 2:19 am

    Folks more intrigue & a must read post.
    .
    Thanks to S Krivit we have news that Lewis Larsen has an explanation for how gold may be produced artificially. Makes fascinating reading.
    .
    http://www.slideshare.net/lewisglarsen/lattice-energy-llc-lenr-transmutation-networks-can-produce-goldmay-19-2012
    .
    Stephen’s post …
    .
    http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/05/21/fascinating-reading-larsens-latest-on-lenrs-and-gold/
    .
    The new gold rush – LENRs 🙂
    .
    DSM

    • Ransompw

      May 23, 2012 at 3:21 am

      How much heat would you be producing to make even small quantities of gold? I mean we are talking grams of nickel to produce months of kilowatts. I think this is Larsen doing his P T Barnum imitation.

      • dsm

        May 23, 2012 at 3:46 am

        I think you could be right 🙂

        DSM

  19. dsm

    May 23, 2012 at 5:15 am

    Some further thoughts on some puzzling past events. SPECULATION ALERT !.
    .
    It has always been intriguing as to why DGT’s chief scientist & founder, Prof Christos Stremmenos, resigned from DGT in with such a blast at the DGT executive.
    .
    As we all know he called them “Megalomaniacs and Liars” and that this was in early Oct 2011.
    .
    http://pesn.com/2011/10/12/9501932_Stremmenos_Accuses_Defkalion_of_Lies_and_Megalomania/
    .
    This has always been problematic as Prof Stremmenos was an accomplished scientist, a founder of DGT, and a former Greek ambassador to Italy. For a long time this odd blot had me thinking very negatively about DGT & its executive.
    .
    But in light of knowing that in early Sept NASA had finally decided Rossi did not have credibility in their eyes (see the Dunn, Bushnell, Preston stories & links posted above), it, IMHO adds weight to DGT deciding to cut their ties with Rossi.
    .
    But if we again give them credit as serious businessmen launching a global enterprise, they surely (my speculation) must have had in place a plan B for sourcing LENR reactors if Rossi failed to deliver. Then if we take a guess, lets say that this was being explored or thought about just before mid 2011 – even tighter say as early as May/June 2011. Then if I were them I’d have gone to the next best expert source I could find and sounded this outfit out on their willingness to step in and become an alternate technology supplier.
    .
    A dumb business might say lets do it ourselves, a smart business would usually go to the best experts they could find and sound them out to step in as a supplier. But with LENRs there aren’t many.
    .
    In July 2011 we heard about the formation of NicHenergy by Piantelli and associates. That may have been underway for several weeks.
    .
    http://beforeitsnews.com/story/862/345/E-Cat_Cold_Fusion_Competitors_Revealed_During_Viareggio_Conference.html
    .
    This IMHO adds weight to Piantelli forming NicHenergy at around the same time to get into serious business of LENR design and licensing and them being asked to be the new incumbent supplier of LENR reactors providing they believed they could and wanted to do the job.
    .
    Piantelli as a technology developer and licensor is a natural fit. If we listen to the Brillouin execs they state emphatically that they want to license their technology not manufacture it. Several other scientists have said exactly the same thing. This is very normal for technologists and IMHO Piantelli was doing this.
    .
    If Stremmenos knew nothing about a relationship with another supplier (DGT would have kept it secret from Stremmenos as he was Focardi & Rossi’s man), that would explain why Stremmenos exploded like he did because he, just like me, would have considered it ridiculous in the extreme that DGT could go it alone. Liars!, Megalomaniacs ! – who do they think they are ? (well, perhaps they became licesees of NicHenergy reactors 🙂 ).
    .
    If Piantelli and DGT had been exploring a deal deal in June/July then the Sept failures of Rossi were probably the opportunity for DGT to start talking of their own LENR reactor but they would have to have been sure that (assuming NicHenergy did the work) the new supplier could come up with a viable alternative in a reasonable timeframe. DGT would not want to be dropped in the muck a 2nd time.
    .
    Again, if the speculation that DGT had lined up a viable alt supplier, then a lot of the statements made by both sides around the time of the divorce, make a lot more sense to me.
    .
    Also, it would help explain the nature of the delays as there would be great pressure on the new developers to deliver this replacement product.
    .
    Do I think Piantelli could do it – always have & have always said so.
    .
    DSM
    .
    DISCLAIMER: Again I am stating that is is educated guess work on my part and is not based on anything more I know or am aware of other than the wealth of evidence on the web (the best of it from Stephen Krivit). Anyone reading this has to reach their own conclusions as just as I have & must consider that I could well be on the wrong path.

  20. daniel maris

    May 23, 2012 at 9:00 am

    If the story is about turning base metal into gold now, then the MSM might not be able to resist it. Library pics of alchemists set against modern lab equipment is one of those juxtapositions they love.

  21. AB

    May 23, 2012 at 9:07 am

    In the meantime the replication of the Pirelli reactor is about to start. The first series of experiments will be done in Rome on behalf of a corporation whose name hasn’t been disclosed because it wants to remain anonymous. The results will be made public though. A second series will be performed in Caserta under the supervision of Ing. Domenico Cirillo with previous experience working on a cold fusion reactor.

    • John Milstone

      May 23, 2012 at 9:45 am

      Oh goodie! Yet another test by a well-known but anonymous organization.

      That’s working so well for DGE.

      • Dale G. Basgall

        May 23, 2012 at 4:44 pm

        That is odd, why do all these people want to remain hidden? Testing is testing and no one would have to test anything if it actually did something substantial. The only tests would be to find out how it did what the calimants state. Anyway that’s odd and maybe it just to make things more attractive to stay on top of for the general public.

        • John Milstone

          May 23, 2012 at 5:17 pm

          Even more odd is that they make public announcements about the “secret” testing.

          If they were really interested in keeping it quiet, they wouldn’t announce it to the public. If they really wanted to use it to convince the public, they would make the info public. (Rossi’s alleged testing with the “secret customer” is an extreme example of this.)

          Of course, they could just be lying.

          • Al Potenza

            May 23, 2012 at 6:45 pm

            “Of course, they could just be lying.”

            You think?

  22. buffalo

    May 23, 2012 at 9:43 am

    i dont see much difference between blacklights cell and a rechargable NiMH battery,the only difference would be nickel oxide is the cathode oxidizer instead of oxygen.the anode is doing precisely same thing..maybe a NiMH battery is capable of overunity?

  23. Harry Perini

    May 23, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    Here is 1331 Lincoln Road , Miami Beach, Florida Apt 601
    Leonardo Corp World Headquarters:

    http://www.trulia.com/homes/Florida/Miami_Beach/sold/26075677-1331-Lincoln-Rd-601-Miami-Beach-FL-33139

  24. General Zaroff

    May 23, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    It appears the energy revolution did not happen yesterday. Maybe today.

    In the meantime, I offer a fun little conundrum. I seem to be surrounded by people with a mastery of nuclear physics and the geometry involved. So, here is a geometry puzzle for them:
    Consider a room that is 8 feet wide, 8 feet tall, and 20 feet long (it is a fully closed chamber, like a box). A spider sits 1 foot above the floor, on the center line of one of the 8×8 walls (ie 4 feet in from the side). He notices a fly on the opposite 8×8 wall, 1 foot below the ceiling, also on the centerline of that wall (4 feet in from the side). The spider must crawl along the walls, floor, and/or celing, it cannot jump or swing.

    Question 1: Can the spider get to the fly traveling a distance less than 28 feet?

    Question 2: If you answer yes for 1, what is the minimum distance he can travel to get his lunch?

    If you choose to reply, please just post a yes or no answer and a number so that we don’t spoil it for our other brilliant friends. You can probably find an answer to this on google but a genius would never do that. And if this is a waste of your time I apologize, but it does only take a minute to figure out….. and arguing over the latest scam hasn’t really made anyone here more enlightened. Bonne chance!

    • Thicket

      May 23, 2012 at 7:45 pm

      Ok. I’m bored so I’ll have a go.

      Mathematicians answer:
      1. Yes
      2 27.202941 ft. approximately 🙂

      Engineer’s answer:
      1. Maybe
      2. 0 feet if the fly flies into the mouth of the spider. Infinity if the fly behaves like a fly and flies away when the spider approaches.

      • General Zaroff

        May 23, 2012 at 10:30 pm

        Well Mr. Thicket you win the prize, sqrt(740) is correct. Perhaps you are a worthy adversary.

        But, since spiders and flies have no known energy applications, we should go back to the fray and argue about which emerging technology will save society most quickly. My money is now on Blacklight, they have a long track record of almost making a breakthrough.

    • dsm

      May 23, 2012 at 11:07 pm

      I was trying to work out the spiders path but got sidetracked on the below – sorry 🙂
      .
      From Akira translation of thread by Roy Virgilio who attended Saturday’s LENR
      talk in Viareggio
      [snip] Piantelli doesn’t use catalysts, at least in the term’s literal meaning. His technology is based mainly on nickel preparation, i.e. powder geometry/size and deposition size (in a multilayered manner). It isn’t known yet if the nickel he uses is doped/enriched.[/snip]
      .
      Akira,
      Once again the clues point to size, shape and packing arrangement of nano powders leading to the geometry which produces anomalous heat. IMHO normal catalytic action is also based on geometry” but at the atomic level which is wrapped into our understanding of chemistry and the periodic chart… Puthoff’s atomic model of a balance between vacuum pressure and an atom’s zero state is being accumulated in a segregated fashion by Casimir geometry such that entire regions outside a cavity can have a slightly higher energy density while tiny confined [suppressed] areas inside the cavity have a concentrated lower density often described as negative that balances the shallow field outside the cavity.
      .
      When you load these quantum fields with hydrogen you have an exotic form of relativistic matter because the energy of these gas atoms is not the result of spatial velocity or individual chemical interaction but rather is conferred upon the hydrogen by the modified vacuum energy density [suppressed environment through which it is travelling] – this is similar to the 9.8m/s^2 we feel gratis of the earth’s mass but negative and without any slow gradients it can change as rapidly as the relative motion between the gas and the rigid Casimir geometry through which it is migrating. My point is that when Naudts posited the hydrino as relativistic it was really the restriction of longer vacuum wavelengths gratis of Casimir suppression that made it so and that any matter inside the cavity would also appear relativistic due to the negative energy density.
      Regards
      Fran

  25. Al Potenza

    May 23, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    Here is a detailed critique of Mills and Black Light Power considering their theoretical claims, past history, and energy generation and hydrino making claims.

    http://scientopia.org/blogs/goodmath/2011/12/29/hydrinos-impressive-free-energy-crackpottery/

    The part I readily agree with and proposed before I read the critique is this: if Mills has made “hydrino”, why doesn’t he simply show it and let people test its physical and chemical and nuclear properties and publish the results? As the article points out, Mills pretends, like Rossi, that such a demonstration would jeopardize his intellectual property and just as that’s incorrect with Rossi, it’s nonsense in Mills’ case also.

    And Mills has been making his claims almost 20 years now! And they are always the same. Enough!

  26. Quax

    May 23, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    Dr. Miley has another non-peer reviewed paper up:

    http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/nets2012/pdf/3051.pdf

    So we have temp increase when loading D/H into the nano Pd as well as when unloading it. But what is not mentioned is how unloading is triggered. Are we to believe it is self triggered by the increase of the temp? If so this doesn’t square with the prospect of running this at high temp that is mentioned in the PDF.

    I was looking for a generic phase diagram of loading H into Pd to get an understanding of the generally assumed thermodynamics of this process, but my web search came up empty.

    Any thoughts? (Preferably from those with some science background)

    • Al Potenza

      May 23, 2012 at 7:23 pm

      That paper, or one essentially identical to it, has been linked to in this forum at least 5 times, maybe 10. Please try to keep up! It shows tiny amount of energy being made, sufficiently small to be a measurement error.

      • Quax

        May 23, 2012 at 8:16 pm

        Al, my question specifically is: How come loading and unloading is exothermic?

        Obviously the conditions for the two processes must be different, but what are they? The paper does not care to tell.

        Couldn’t find a generic phase diagram.

        Unless you can point me to this being answered already on this board, please refrain from berating me. But if you have an actual answer or even better a LENR free paper that just gives the phase diagram – please don’t hold back.

        • Al Potenza

          May 24, 2012 at 3:09 am

          The question is a good one. I suspect it has more to do with measurement methods and chemical reactions and is not LENR/CF. But that’s intuition, not science.

    • LCD

      May 23, 2012 at 8:59 pm

      Quax besides the powerpoint presentation on Ben’s site http://e-catsite.com/ and the krivit interview article there is no other data that I know of.

      I thought he just varied the pressure.

  27. Frost*

    May 23, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    New video from NASA/Joseph M. Zawodny – LENR

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42hrCRx1JJY

    • Stephen T.

      May 23, 2012 at 8:40 pm

      Good one. Thanks.

    • LCD

      May 23, 2012 at 9:02 pm

      thanks

    • Mahron - A4 B2

      May 23, 2012 at 9:36 pm

      New post ! New post ! New post !

    • dsm

      May 23, 2012 at 9:44 pm

      Good find – verrry interesting.

      Thanks

      DSM

    • John Milstone

      May 23, 2012 at 9:44 pm

      So, Zawodny is doing basic experiments to determine whether there is anything to LENR or not. This is where legitimate LENR research is right now.

      Anyone telling you that they have a Kilo-Mega-Gigawatt generator that’s real close now to being ready for production is a liar. And a con man.

      • Ransompw

        May 23, 2012 at 10:34 pm

        Doing research to understand the mechanism says nothing about engineers exploiting the process. Zawodny is looking for the end game. Understanding how it works will allow him to better control the reaction and exploit the energy source to a greater degree.

        That doesn’t mean DGT, Rossi or Piantelli aren’t developing products.

        • John Milstone

          May 23, 2012 at 10:44 pm

          That doesn’t mean DGT, Rossi or Piantelli aren’t developing products.

          No, their lies and stalling tell us that they aren’t developing products.

          I’m excluding Piantelli because I haven’t been following his work, so I don’t have a strong opinion. But if he were claiming that he has a kilo-mega-gigawatt generator that’s real close to production, but only needs a few more investors to get there, then I would be prepared to conclude that he was a con man too.

  28. daniel maris

    May 23, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    Where’s Dick? – doesn’t he want to rush to condemn the MIT machine and BLP as scams endangering mom and pop investors? 🙂

  29. GreenWin

    May 23, 2012 at 9:43 pm

    Abundant, Clean/Green, Energy

    When you fully grasp what this represents, a very inexpensive, clean form of power… it would be the sort of technology that would fuel our future growth and expansion, and have the ability to raise the standard of living of the entire world.” Joe Zawodny PhD, NASA Langley Research Center

    The hits just keep comin’ Does no one care about the children??

    • John Milstone

      May 23, 2012 at 9:49 pm

      it would be the sort of technology that would fuel our future growth and expansion

      For those people who haven’t drunk the Kool-Aid, notice that he is speaking in hypothetical terms, i.e. “this would be… if it turns out to be true.”

      Of course, the True Believers clutch at any such statement and try to claim it as a statement of definite, current, production-ready power generation.

    • dsm

      May 23, 2012 at 10:12 pm

      You have a bloody nerve showing up here again after publicly calling Jim Dunn a liar all because you screwed up your pathetic research !.

      You have not apologized for either the bad researching you did or you calling him a liar with no justifiable evidence whatsoever.

      If you make your peace with a sincere apology I for myself will let the matter go & not raise it again. If you don’t apologize be prepared for some harsh treatment.

      This was self inflicted on your part.

      DSM

      • General Zaroff

        May 23, 2012 at 10:44 pm

        Come on now DSM, you can’t stay angry forever, everyone makes mistakes. Like this one time, JNewman wanted to borrow my car, so I gave it to him and it turns out he was smuggling drugs across the border. Then, when he returned it to me there was a dead prostitute in the trunk and I had to dispose of the body. I was a little angry at first, but I got over it. Friendship is far more important than petty squabbles DSM.

        • dsm

          May 23, 2012 at 11:20 pm

          Calling Jim Dunn a liar without an apology is no petty squabble.

          D

        • JNewman

          May 24, 2012 at 3:28 am

          You are a liar, General. There were no drugs involved and you know it.

      • GreenWin

        May 23, 2012 at 11:22 pm

        Yeah… what Generale said. And your bud’s still a liar and sham foo jus like Dickhead Smith. Least I could spell his name right!

        But come on, what’re we gonna do about the children??

        • dsm

          May 23, 2012 at 11:25 pm

          GreenWin
          .
          You just can’t stop your neurotic obsessive drivel can you.
          .
          Pathetic.
          .
          DSM
          .

          • GreenWin

            May 23, 2012 at 11:37 pm

            dougpsiop = 0, Good Guys = 10 Still, I’ll loan you my car, man.

          • dsm

            May 24, 2012 at 2:25 am

            LENR PATENTS
            .
            Found this Italian site that has some info related to NicHenergy & Piantelli & patents.
            .
            http://www.consulente-energia.com/fusione-fredda-nichenergy-srl-siena-piantelli-azionariato-diffuso-roy-virgilio.html
            .
            The last para (google translated + some attempted tidy up) says this …
            .
            THE “WAR OF PATENTS” WITH ROSSI
            .
            27/01/1994 Piantelli asks for, with the University of Siena as an applicant, a first patent, entitled “Energy generation and generator by means-of anharmonic stimulated fusion”, and gets it the following year.
            .
            This patent, however, after a first renewal, expires. Piantelli, submits a new patent application (in the name of his daughter Silvia and with him as inventor), on 24/11/2008. Rossi had already submitted his professional 7 months earlier.
            .
            On 04.06.2011 the patent requested by Rossi is approved, which could “lock” out Piantelli.
            .
            Therefore, April 26, 2011 Piantelli files a new patent application, entitled “Method and apparatus for generating energy through nuclear reactions of hydrogen absorbed by orbital capture a crystalline nanostructure of a metal” (to read it requires waiting 18 months for publication, that date is, October 27, 2012).
            .
            In practice, it extends the scope of the application, from a Ni-H system to a more general system metal-hydrogen.
            .
            ***********************************
            .
            I have no comments yet on what it means. Need to review more info.
            .
            DSM

          • dsm

            May 24, 2012 at 2:34 am

            Above post was meant to be a new one – D

  30. dsm

    May 23, 2012 at 9:56 pm

    Two more topics I plan to cover today & perhaps tomorrow include.
    .
    1) Speculation & available info on NicHenergy and how they might have entered a business relationship with DGT. (e.g. DGT would not be NicHenergy’s only customer, it would most likely be a specific deal for a specific part of the market or region of marketing)
    .
    2) Further thoughts on the issue of patents & patent protection. This has been a complex area but IMHO a picture is emerging.
    .
    DSM

    • Ransompw

      May 23, 2012 at 10:49 pm

      DSM

      I know you like to speculate on all of this but with the available facts all we really have are various possibilities.

      • dsm

        May 23, 2012 at 11:21 pm

        As always 🙂

        D

      • John Milstone

        May 24, 2012 at 2:39 pm

        but with the available facts all we really have are various possibilities.

        Rossi and DGE could easily fix this, but they refuse to do so.

        A clear presentation of the actual facts would scare away the gullible investors.

      • Ivy Matt

        May 24, 2012 at 3:19 pm

        That’s no different from when folks were just speculating about Rossi and Defkalion.

  31. Stephen T.

    May 23, 2012 at 10:55 pm

    • dsm

      May 23, 2012 at 11:24 pm

      Interesting – no one from NicHenergy or DGT 🙂
      .
      But I would like to know more about this person…
      .
      Global Energy Corporation, USA

      .
      DSM

    • Al Potenza

      May 23, 2012 at 11:29 pm

      No Rossi, no DGT people, no Stremmenos, no Levy, no Focardi, no Swartz, no Miley… did I leave anyone out? All the great claimants of large amounts of energy from working or “nearly commercialized” LENR devices go unrepresented. How could that be? Maybe they don’t want to face their peers? Why would that be?

      By the way, if I were Levy and I were interested in preserving my reputation, I’d INSIST that Rossi allow me simply to repeat my original observation which was reported to have yielded 135 kW peak power and more than 20 kW average for 18 hours peak power with an old fashioned ecat. If Rossi refused, I’d call him out on it in public. But then, I’m not Levy.

      • GreenWin

        May 23, 2012 at 11:46 pm

        N’ you sure ain’t in public.

      • John Milstone

        May 24, 2012 at 12:38 am

        Same with Kullander.

        He promised to provide a “detailed isotopic analysis” of the “ash” from Rossi’s E-Cat before Christmas. He still hasn’t delivered, nor has he explained his failure to do so.

  32. GreenWin

    May 24, 2012 at 12:55 am

    “The whole saga of the e-cat and its “clones” and the reason why the World of Science is absent from the stage, is mainly due to the fact that the whole Scientific establishment has no answer to many questions, the most important of which is:’is the model of the atom a plausible and acceptable one, or its representation is completely off the mark?’.

    I am sure that many top Scientists have realized that the e-cat is just the harbinger of a true great revolution, and a new branch of Science is going to be borne out of it :’the Science of transmutation’.

    It will be based on a revolutionary concept of the atomic structure and will cause loss of face for the whole establishment which until now adamantly denied the existence of the basic substance called Ether (or similar names).

    The atomic model supplied by the acceptance of Ether in the Universe as the primigen form of energy, existing outside the physical mass, can superate the impasse and that is the way the research must go from now on.” Antonio Ruggeri Dr. Ing. on May 23, 2012

    Indeed, however the skeptopaths fight for their narrow view often having been damaged in earlier debate:

    “Such scientifically inclined, but psychologically scarred people tend to join Skeptics’ organizations much as one might join any other support group, say, Alcoholics Anonymous. There they find comfort, consolation, and support amongst their own kind. Anyone who has spent much time engaging members of Skeptics’ organizations knows about their strong inclination toward ridicule and ad hominem criticism of those with differing viewpoints.” Robert McLuhan, Psychology of the Skeptic

    • Shane D.

      May 24, 2012 at 3:03 am

      Reminds me of the medieval knights who had their brides “protected” by iron chastity belts as they went off to fight, only to come back to a very pregnant wife. Where there is a will there is a way.

      Same goes for the atom. Hot fusion knights were sure their standard model was impenetrable, except by blunt massive frontal assault, only to find that some sneeky little cold fusion guy has found a subtle way in.

      Sex and science have a lot in common.

      • GreenWin

        May 24, 2012 at 6:41 am

        What you seem to be saying Shane is the old model of the atom has been fu*^ed. Ah well, it’s all in the fambly!

    • Ivy Matt

      May 24, 2012 at 3:26 pm

      “The Science of transmutation”, huh? I’d say this fellow is about a century behind the times.

  33. Tony

    May 24, 2012 at 1:48 am

    I’ve only been skimming this site over the last 6 months but I was very active early on as a hard skeptic and still am. The site should be closed and some new thing created to debate the “Yes-LENR” – “No – LENR” question. This site started life as a an ecat site. That’s all done now. There is no ecat and there never was. There is also no DGT. It was so painfully obvious from very early on that this was an investor scam ala BLP, ala Genesis World Energy, ala….well, you name it.

    The site now simply takes up bandwidth that other, more important things could use. The whole thing here has become a virtual gladiators arena where the “ransoms” square off against the “popeyes” in a battle that can never be resolved since one is science and one is heart. The two can never be resolved.

    But the heart has lost. All of this time; all of these promises; all of these delays for something that would be earth-changing shows the lie.

    You folks are all very smart and passionate. Put the energy you expend here into something real and one can only imagine what the results might be.

    Tony2

    • Shane D.

      May 24, 2012 at 2:43 am

      Tony,

      At first I thought your post was an introduction to an Edgar Allen Poe novel. But as I was headed to the bathtub to slit my wrists thank goodness I realized it wasn’t.

      Come on man… things aren’t that bad! You even point to a few positives about this site. May I suggest you become a believer? It’s very easy to do and results in great peace of mind.

      Better than any drug could do, you go to sleep at peace with the world and wake up seeing rainbows on the horizon, bluebirds singing, knowing that mankind is saved.

      Now close your eyes and repeat after me -Rossi/DGT/BLP are real real real real real…

      Sweet dreams.

      • GreenWin

        May 24, 2012 at 6:35 am

        Toney, don let the door hitchu on ur way…

        • dsm

          May 24, 2012 at 7:33 am

          Dear idiot – just shutup – your stupidity is destructive.

    • Ransompw

      May 24, 2012 at 5:53 am

      Tony:

      You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I do disagree on the science v heart description. My opinion is it is closer to heart v heart. I don’t think there is much science on the skeptic side at this point.

      • Thicket

        May 24, 2012 at 1:15 pm

        “I don’t think there is much science on the skeptic side at this point”

        That’s your heart talking. You don’t know enough about science to make a scientific evaluation.

        • John Milstone

          May 24, 2012 at 2:58 pm

          You [ransompw] don’t know enough about science to make a scientific evaluation.

          That can’t be right. Just the other day, ransompw was lecturing everyone on LENR theory.

    • dsm

      May 24, 2012 at 8:11 am

      Tony
      .
      While your opinion is surprisingly common. The world is changing & LENR is advancing.
      .
      The timing of your post may paint you as slow to the party 🙂

      .

      Cheers DSM

      • JNewman

        May 24, 2012 at 2:45 pm

        Doug, your views on all of this are clearly thought-out and based on some rational process. The part that I still don’t understand is the statement that LENR is advancing. What is the evidence for that statement? I just don’t see it. Despite the constant chatter of publicity seekers like Rossi and DGT and even supposedly serious researchers like Miley, I don’t see any metric by which one could claim technical progress in the field apart from number of internet hits. I’ve asked people to show this in the reported results before and nobody was able to do so.

        • dsm

          May 24, 2012 at 11:10 pm

          JNewman,
          .
          On the notion of LENR advancing. I am basing my belief on 2 factors. 1) the progress on NASA’s chase around the globe, to find & talk to everyone who claims to be making progress. 2) On Piantelli’s NicHenergy.
          .
          I now know who from NASA visited Rossi & roughly when & how many times. Also about their visits to NicHenergy & to DGT.
          .
          The biggest difficulty I had with DGT was always to do with Stremmenos’s resignation & his remarks. Then after hearing privately 3 months ago about Jim Dunn’s belief that DGT had the goods, that got me wondering. This news didn’t fit with my image of DGT.
          .
          For the past 3 months I concluded Jim was mistaken – I had not yet connected the dots that Jim Dunn had been part of the NASA team (incl Bushnell) who were going around visiting all these LENR claimants & evaluating them. That realization only sank in last week. I had known Jim Dunn & thought he had gone to DGT on his own & thus was not willing to accept his conviction re DGT.
          .
          Also, over time & the more I read about Piantelli, I concluded he was the quiet achiever as well as the instigator & should be taken seriously. This week I found Peter Gluck’s comments about Piantelli & they totally reinforce this impression. So Piantelli & the foundation & claims for NicHenergy are 1 motivator for believing LENR is advancing.
          .
          Today I consider that NASA’s Bushnell has adequate exposure to what others are achieving as well as to what his own people are doing and achieving and although there is a risk in placing such faith in another person (even Bushnell), I think he best sums up where I am at re LENR.
          .
          http://futureinnovation.larc.nasa.gov/view/articles/futurism/bushnell/low-energy-nuclear-reactions.html
          .
          EXTRACTS (2):
          #1
          By any rational measure, this evidence indicates something real is occurring. So, is LENR “Real?” Evidently, from the now long standing and diverse experimental evidence. And, yes – with effects occurring from using diverse materials, methods
          of energy addition etc. This is far from a “Narrow Band” set of physical phenomena.

          .
          #2
          .

          The theory states that once some energy is added to load surfaces with hydrogen/protons, if the surface morphology enables high localized voltage gradients, then heavy electrons leading to ultra low energy neutrons will form– neutrons that never leave the surface.

          The neutrons set up isotope cascades which result in beta decay, heat and transmutations with the heavy electrons converting the beta decay gamma into heat.
          .
          Cheers
          .
          DSM
          .
          PS Peter Gluck on Piantelli …
          .
          “Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:32:57 -0700

          Actually Piantelli has at least 15 publications in which he is the main leading/author the others being Focardi and analyticians.

          And his two patents WO 1995/20816 and WO 2010/058288 are very professionally written. (two new patents coming soon)

          He had self-sustaining cells years ago. Being a serious scientist he has explored the anomalous heat effect with many transition metals – many work.

          He understands what happens in his cells.

          He does not like publicity and what he says is based on solid experimental facts. And has experience in the industry, therefore will not put technologically immature products on the…market.
          .
          Rossi says his system is not related to Piantelli’s – he has to demonstrate this , combined with the viability and usability of his generators.
          .
          Peter”
          .
          http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg49589.html

  34. dsm

    May 24, 2012 at 2:33 am

    eCat News has already explored the Piantelli+DGT possibility. So the info I posted really only serves to provide another similar view but one enhanced by 12 more months of high-drama & activity.
    .
    http://ecatnews.com/?p=693
    .
    EXCERPT:

    What exactly could they do if they have no eCat rights and have no alternative of their own?
    .
    One possibility would be to approach Piantelli. To all accounts, he is close behind AR. Could Defkalion join forces with him, pooling whatever knowledge each has gained to mutual benefit? Publicly, AR doubts anyone would be able to match his results on the market soon even as he acknowledges that it will inevitably come his way.
    .
    Given that Piantelli’s original work predates Rossi’s, such collaboration could prove powerful in both practical terms and in any future patent fight. If one man (Rossi) virtually on his own, found the way then others with the right resources could – with brute force – do the same with all the little hints they have at their tips. With no more than the knowledge that it is possible, that the base is Ni-H, that the reaction kicks off at around 60C and with details of isotopic ratios, pressure and volume parameters, Rossi’s thousand tweaks might be cut to hundreds and this will be well within the reach of a well-resourced group – and fast. If tubercles can enhance the reaction, perhaps fissures and cracks, or filaments or…. might too. In fact, since AR does not include details of the catalyzer (assuming it is real) in his patent application, another company with the knowledge might pip him to it. At the very least, this would become a weapon in any future fight. I can’t see how AR would be able to stop anyone from using it. Unless there is a hidden patent application in the works, the use of any catalyzer is up for grabs from a legal point of view.

    According to AR, the potential financial fault has been looming for months. Working so close to the inventor, Defkalion may have been shocked by his decision but they surely must have been prepared for it. These people are likely shrewd and one wonders if Plan B might reveal itself sometime soon.

    Failing reconciliation, if Defkalion has an alternative route, they will be manoeuvring in unseen directions and they will be moving fast. As we enter a period of relative silence, October screeches towards us. Do not be fooled by the calm, a frantic race is going on even as you read this: A race that includes Rossi and Defkalion and Nichenergy and dozens of old and new LENR researchers. If Andrea Rossi’s eCat purrs as advertised, someone somewhere sometime is going to create a beast that barks. In that case, we will all owe a debt of gratitude to AR and be thankful for the healthy competition. It is such competition and the frantic race for a position in a new trillion dollar industry that will give us the best chance of rapid deployment and use.

    It would not surprise me to learn that defensive patents are now being lodged. If anyone out there finds a secret sauce or its ugly twin, that is a powerful weapon to have.

    All of this is conjecture on top of conjecture but my feeling is that, for every throw-away comment in the public arena, there are powerful forces acting and reacting to them, small ripples adding to a subsurface current yet to be revealed.

    • dsm

      May 24, 2012 at 2:44 am

      Hmmmm
      .
      Some very familiar names follow on in the comments section of the above old ecat news thread.
      .
      I see ransompw there doing battle with maryyugo 🙂
      .
      MaryYugo lambasting Rossi & Ransompw there in stout defense.
      .
      What are your thoughts on this today Ransom ?
      .
      Cheers
      .
      DSM

      • Ransompw

        May 24, 2012 at 5:38 am

        DSM:

        What it shows is that I have been following this story for a long time.

        But my thoughts haven’t changed appreciably since last August. Base on the Demo’s I think Rossi had a working reactor that wasn’t close to a commercial product. I suspect DGT determined that he hadn’t fulfilled the requirements of the DGT contract and Rossi disagreed.

        Personally, since they had been working together (Stremmenos was testing with Rossi, there are photos) I really think DGT probably had enough information to carry on, but you could be right and Piantelli might have stepped in the void. That was speculated at the time. I think they are all trying to get consistent controllable reactors and I suspect Rossi and DGT are closer today then they were last August.

        By the way, NASA is obviously funding studies now based on Zawodny’s video which is different then last year. NASA funding a study is absolutely huge. I know NASA pretty well and there would be no money for that unless the powers to be thought LENR was real.

        • dsm

          May 24, 2012 at 7:29 am

          interesting to read your thoughts

          thanks

          as said I have no better info, just an attempt to ‘connect the dots’ and an admission the picture may well be wrong.

          DSM

        • dsm

          May 24, 2012 at 8:08 am

          Lets play the game of ‘opinion’ – I am quite happy to start & to say what I really think …

          ROSSI:
          – at first I thought he was the miracle worker some still think he is. Thought he was being picked on and unfairly targeted. But, his statements about what he was doing just kept changing to the point that he seemed dysfunctional. It was just too hard to maintain any faith. That remains so right to this day. Also the more I delved into his start in LENR (2007) & him filing the basic patent that defines his glory (April 2008), the more it looked like a cunning, clever, opportunist trying to hijack a new era. I sympathise with the evidence that Petroldragon really worked but wa scuttled by devious forces within Italy. BUT, he really lost me after I read about the 4th supposed eCat ‘evaluation’ failed (1-Public (Oct), 2-Bologna Uni, 3-Uppsala Uni, 4-NASA).
          Rossi is just too much his own worst enemy & little he says can be truly trusted.
          .
          DGT:
          – After reading Stremmenos’s resignation comments (liars – megalos) it was hard for me to see them objectively. I still saw (then) Rossi as the hero & them as the mafia thieves. It was a bit stupid of the CEO of Defkalion to claim he had cloned an eCat as that had me regarding them as blatant thieves. In fact, little more than a bunch of mafia deciding to set up a major money scam.
          .
          NicHenergy:
          – never really regarded them as anything other than the company of a quiet unobtrusive, detailed, serious researcher called Piantelli, who may have let history pass him by. But now am thinking he fought right back
          .
          Brillouin:
          These guys I loved. Just enjoyed their openness and sincerity, but it was clear they were a long way behind due to a lack of funding. I still wish them the absolute best.
          .
          LARSEN & Lattice:
          This guy still has the floor and the magic. Loved listening to him talk & remain a fan.
          .
          MILLS:
          At first he & Blacklight seemed to have it all, except after 20 years, any serious results. Still think he is brilliant but perhaps shining in the wrong place 🙁
          .
          NASA:
          Born winners with extraordinary influence who will do what it takes to win !. 🙂
          .
          The Others:
          Entertainment in that they keep plugging away & doing conferences and doing demos (of minute power, but it appears to work). The recently announced ICCF-17 illustrates these folk well.
          .
          KRIVIT:
          Took an intense dislike to him at first – BUT, as time passed found he was just so repeatedly right so much of the time, even despite his recent nasty run-in with a couple of famous researchers. As already said elsewhere, sent him an email apologizing for publicly calling him the devil’s spawn & told him I no longer quite believed that 🙂
          .
          Please Enjoy for the 0.2 cents it is worth in the grand scheme of it all 🙂
          .
          DSM

          • Alain

            May 24, 2012 at 1:59 pm

            You seems very negative, and quite innocent…
            here is my version
            ROSSI
            an eccentric man, with moderate dishonest behavior, who seek to save the world with an invention… fall on something, sure (sure especially because defkalion took the idea), but manage it badly, bad engineering, lone paranoid work, bad excuses (patent, hiding)… seems to have hidden many problems, maybe faked some demo, or at least made errors… since he worked with national intruments, and get under the control of a consortium, his behavior is much more professional… anyway, he communicate too much…

            Defkalion:
            when they see how Rossi was badly working, and were sure it was real anyway, they decide to take the ideas (the ideas are free speech, not patentable), and using public research (much data already) decide to make a similar device… no surprise. classic industrial engineering. classic business. Madagascar Penguin management.
            Of course, with a revolutionary device, megalomania, greed, is expected.
            they try to play the “open guys” but as we are kids on Internet, decide to stay silent in their lab, and fly under the radar. As say sterling allan, some technical problems might explain their silence too…

            Brillouin :
            their theory is similar to widom larsen, but why do their talk about theory before ? they communicate well, and that is for me a bad point (make scam theory possible). clearly they are not yet industrial and look for funding. I think they are honest but clearly not sure.

            Larsen :
            very good presentations, with good arguments, putting many scientific results in perspective. even if you don’t believe in their theory, it is interesting.
            however big warning about too beautiful slides…
            their theory, if not exactly true, show the way to acceptable theories…
            I see links with Brillouin, Takahashi, Kim… weak interaction, coherence, neutrons…

            Mills:
            seems to get locked in an old theory, however maybe with Kim theory they get to a better direction.
            about technical results they stay to the limited Pd-D cells, and to niche applications for space…

            Nasa:
            you are right, influencers, that bet on all horses having a chance.

            Nichenergy:
            you are right… a spin off, still silent. anyway maybe like Defkalion is doing today, are they flying under the radar, and will drop an H-Bomb by surprise.

            blacklight:
            their theory is old-fashioned, and why do they stick to any theory instead of just making it work first.
            they seems to be needing cash for research and there is a possibility of scam, or at least of exaggerate claims to obtain funding for research… being sincere does not prevent to lie.

          • John Milstone

            May 24, 2012 at 2:15 pm

            @Alain:

            since he worked with national interments

            But he didn’t “work with National Instruments”.

            National Instruments made it clear that they never got beyond the initial pre-sales discussions, that they had no contact with Rossi after their pre-sales talks in November and that they never worked on a controller for Rossi.

            Every statement made by Rossi regarding NI, right from the initial statement that they had signed a contract to work together, was a flat-out lie.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            May 24, 2012 at 2:18 pm

            I say only this, staying on meta-level: I would be very surprised if all of them are fake/misconception/delusion, and I would also be very surprised if all of them are genuine. Rough guess: 1/3 are scam/delusion, others have some sort of nuclear phenomenon, if marketable or not.

      • John Milstone

        May 24, 2012 at 10:58 am

        Interesting that there has been absolutely no progress by any of the “players” in the last six months.

        Legitimate engineering/business work would so some signs of progress, but this is entirely typical of a scam.

  35. GreenWin

    May 24, 2012 at 6:45 am

    I just realized… I don’t have to SIGN my initials at the bottom of my posts! Cause they’re appended to the top… see?

  36. Pekka Janhunen

    May 24, 2012 at 7:53 am

    ICCF-17 programme is out, http://iccf17.org/sub04.php

    Compared to other scientific meetings I see two unusual features: 1) no contributed talks, only invited ones (one poster session though), 2) coffee break immediately follows lunch break.

  37. John Milstone

    May 24, 2012 at 10:40 am

    2) coffee break immediately follows lunch break.

    Wouldn’t it have been nice if they used a LENR device to heat the water for that coffee?

    But no one in the world has a real device that is capable of doing so.