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A 45MW eCat Delusion?

April 13, 2012

Fifteen months ago, I believed that come October 2011 we would know the reality or otherwise of Andrea Rossi’s eCat. The 1MW demo was interesting but left gaps you could drive a ship through. Importantly, the meta data was not as solid as we had hoped, prime among the disappointments being the ‘need’ to keep the customer secret. Never mind, we were told, the next customer is happy to sing – be assured; the first 1MW plant is gone, accepted by the secret shopper.

We know the story that followed and so I will not repeat the constant promises and disappointments surrounding imminent news on the Rossi or Defkalion front. The latest pronouncements from AR include plans for a 45MW plant and ‘confirmation’  that the 1MW secret customer is military. As a former serving member of the RAF (21 yrs) I cannot wrap my head around the idea that a device destined to change the nature of warfare is left with the manufacturer for over six months to fix a few gaskets or for any other reason at all. Furthermore, we now hear that Defkalion’s next milestone will be the launch of a prototype Hyperion in July. Is that the next milestone after the announcement of the names of the independent testers and the details of their results?

I believe in proof before guilt and I therefore cannot put my hand on my heart and call anyone a fraud. It seems inconceivable to me that so many qualified and experienced people close to Rossi and DGT could have been hoodwinked by a nuclear-driven boiler if it was a lie. After over a year of intimate exposure to the technology, surely one at least would cry foul when the back story did not match the public one? To me, this is the single factor remaining which offers hope and we should keep that front and centre when tempted to assume fraud. Ironically, as the eCat story stretches credulity, optimism for LENR appears to be strengthened. In turn, LENR’s increasing credibility props AR’s claims – just a little.

The problem here is not certainty of fraud or the death of hope but that the behaviour of the two main organisations is indistinguishable from those with con men at the helm. As I said above and elsewhere, the supporting strut in this affair that remains somewhat intact is the credibility of the company the eCat keeps. For me, however, that is no longer enough.

I constantly worry about steering people towards imprudent investment which is why I normally add a caveat (such as ‘assuming it is true’) to my posts. This was a compromise I could live with until clarity came our way. After all, no-one would be crazy enough to invest without private proof. Would they?

Recent evidence says otherwise. No-one is responsible for placing such a high-risk bet but the person who makes it. To do so without due diligence seems crazy. Even so, I feel increasingly uncomfortable about offering hope even as I hold the belief that it is still there in modest measure.

My recent silence is deliberate. If Rossi or DGT deliver on their promise it will be news worth reporting. In such a case, there will be an avalanche of spin-off stories from around the world and an increasing need to fight disinformation. If it comes to pass, I hope people will see this site as a credible and honest resource. Thus I report my misgivings now even if they are later proven wrong.

I thank everyone for answering my recent call for ideas and should a positive avalanche come our way, I will consider implementing the best of your suggestions. Until then and until the game changes with credible third-party evidence, I will monitor the situation but only post when there is something you need to know. If you wish to attend to the real world in the meantime, it is worth subscribing to the newsletter from the link above. It may appear dormant while we are in wait-mode but if your back is turned and something important breaks (good or bad) you will receive a gentle tap on the shoulder. That may be tomorrow and it may be distant but at least you will be among the first to know when your eye is elsewhere.

While I understand the interest in alternative energy technologies, beyond LENR my attention is casual. LENR may turn out to be extremely important (that is my current bet) but as a science in birth, real news will come in fits and starts. For the best part of a year, I have worked hard – often in a full-time capacity, trying to keep you informed by balancing a sceptical approach with honest optimism. Apart from those who gave them money or direct help, neither Andrea Rossi nor Defkalion GT owe us anything. Secrets and lies are foodstock for business and do not necessarily signal bad intent but I can no longer justify the intense distraction from my real work while such a situation continues. That will change the instant proof of anything substantial comes our way.

In the meantime, if you have put money to this venture without solid evidence (it really is easy to prove) then I would be knocking on doors, very, very hard. I do hope you prove to be a winner along with AR, Defkalion and all those good people they have recruited to their side. Such a win would be a boon to us all.

I look forward to the day we have something more than Rossi or Defkalion-says to report. Until then, chill out and be assured that we are watching on your behalf. I make this announcement as a warning and in the hope that the goodwill of eCatNews readers and posters does not go to waste. I pray the comments do not die as I find them fascinating and a mine of information. If anyone wishes to volunteer as a moderator, we may be able to make good use of what we have built.

I need to launch my next book by the summer. That is where my head will be unless something in the eCat story changes. In which case, all bets are off. Thank you, all.

Paul

Posted by on April 13, 2012. Filed under Defkalion,Rossi,Uncategorized. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

1,248 Responses to A 45MW eCat Delusion?

  1. X-prize

    April 25, 2012 at 5:29 am

    If Edward Teller and Luis Alvarez believed that very low temperature cold fusion is real – who am I to doubt them?
    Read the latest post by Gary Wright
    .
    “Why the Open Source LENR Project?”
    .
    http://ecatdoteudotcom.wordpress.com/
    http://www.opensourcelenr.com/

    ********************************************************************
    I’m the Proud Owner of one of the most Dangerous Weapons feared by corrupt Governments: A Human Brain
    ********************************************************************

  2. GreenWin

    April 25, 2012 at 6:30 am

    “The finding can be integrated into potential quantum computers, one hopes. Causality, clearly, is a quaint, irrelevant concept.”

    Damn. Superluminal, conservation violating neutrinos. High Schoolers doing overunity LENR. Nuclear transmutation. Hot fusion fiasco. Himalayan glaciers growing larger. Penguin populations doubling… Harvard cancels science journals support. Open Source ascending. The Bohr atom defunct.

    Hindsight non-existent – temporal difference replaced by temporal singularity. It’s as if the very pillars of science were crumbling.

    E Goliath cade.

    • Quax

      April 25, 2012 at 6:52 am

      Entanglement is at the heart of quantum computing but it does not challenge causality contrary to what Einstein originally believed.

      The persistent level of public bewilderment is not surprising given the poor quality of what passes for popular science reporting.

      • LCD

        April 25, 2012 at 3:42 pm

        See quantum eraser expeeiment and delayed choice quantum eraser experiment.

    • C M Edwards 9%

      April 25, 2012 at 3:06 pm

      “…dogs and cats, living together… Mass Hysteria!”

    • Ivy Matt

      April 25, 2012 at 4:43 pm

      Raining blood, two-headed cows, net energy gain, birds flying backwards…

  3. georgehants

    April 25, 2012 at 7:52 am

    I can say that the closed-minded rubbish talked by some scientists on these pages is depressing.
    Pages of irrelevant tripe while real scientists (children) in an Italian school actually stop talking “opinion” and do the bloody Research.
    Causality is a special, local case of the Quantum, and an approximation.
    Everything is Quantum at base and those who wish to work and think in a reductionist classical manner are not discussing reality, just a working camouflage created by ??????

    Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past
    April 23, 2012
    Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past
    This abstract illustration shows four particles of light can be produced and manipulated in such a way that one can later decide in which quantum state two of the particles have been. Credit: Jon Heras, Equinox Graphics Ltd.
    http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html

    • Pekka Janhunen

      April 25, 2012 at 8:22 am

      George, I think your world is quantum statement is a healthy reminder to many scientists, even though physicists might feel it redundant as no one questions quantum mechanics these days. Nevertheless it’s a true statement in my opinion that although QM is accepted and well known, it has become to some extent compartmentalised into those disciplines such as quantum optics which are actively using it. QM still remains unintuitive and hard to comprehend, so more often than not our fate seems to be in some sense to reinvent the quantum wheel in each and every case where it’s responsible for some novel physical effects.

    • General Zaroff

      April 25, 2012 at 6:05 pm

      Yes georgehants thw world is quantum, if only the experts had considered this 80 years ago. I guess it is time for every scientist to abandon their current field of research and enroll at that Italian highschool to do some real work.

      I do so like your militant quantum attitude. Keep shaking the establishment and I am sure that one day you will be recognized as a pioneer in bring quantum mechanics to the masses.

    • Quax

      April 25, 2012 at 9:37 pm

      Just for you George, again the most important quote form the the paper that so excites you:

      If one views the quantum state as a real physical object, one could get the seemingly paradoxical situation that future actions appear as having an influence on past and already irrevocably recorded events.

      However, there is never a paradox if the quantum state is viewed as to be no more than a “catalogue of our knowledge”. Then the state is a probability list for all possible measurement outcomes, the relative temporal order of the three observer’s events is irrelevant and no physical interactions whatsoever between these events, especially into the past, are necessary to explain the delayed-choice entanglement swapping.

      You can’t use this to send information into the past. You can only recognize the correlation post factum.

      This is just a clever variation of the old EPR paradox. If the latter actually allowed to send information faster than light than you could send it also back in time.

      Alas, that is not what’s happening.

      The fact that people cannot understand this is the inability to distinguish between causation and correlation writ large.

      • georgehants

        April 26, 2012 at 8:59 am

        Quax do you purposely want to discredit yourself continually, I put up a link and made no comment to that link so do not assume you know anything about how I interpret it.
        I state clearly the World is totally QUANTUM and classical reality is merely a result of that reality.
        If you disagree then you need to learn more before you comment.
        Your snide, presumptive and inaccurate attacks give no information to the page but certainly give much information about you.

        To answer your point, that without all the ad hominem would have been fair —
        Nature sends information faster than light in the Quantum World naturally and in many ways.
        Humans cannot send information faster than light, YET.
        Science with it’s usual incompetent Dogma, refuses to accept that Nature exceeding the speed of light is more important than dumb humans being able to.
        Anything, to hide and cover up the Truth and unfortunately some scientists fall for the brain-washing, hook, line and sinker.

        • Quax

          April 26, 2012 at 6:45 pm

          Quax do you purposely want to discredit yourself continually, I put up a link and made no comment to that link so do not assume you know anything about how I interpret it.

          And yet I guessed exactly how you interpret it:

          Nature sends information faster than light in the Quantum World naturally and in many ways.

          Nope, nature doesn’t.

          Looks like I can get under your skin and look into your head.

          At the same time! And almost at the speed of light!

  4. Rends

    April 25, 2012 at 8:28 am

    +++ 1.163 Responses to A 45MW eCat Delusion +++

    Now one is able to follow this “discussion”, it is time for a change …

    http://www.lenrforum.eu

  5. georgehants

    April 25, 2012 at 10:13 am

    Open science a step closer.
    Harvard University now advising faculty to publish only in Open Access journals

    We write to communicate an untenable situation facing the Harvard Library. Many large journal publishers have made the scholarly communication environment fiscally unsustainable and academically restrictive. This situation is exacerbated by efforts of certain publishers (called “providers”) to acquire, bundle, and increase the pricing on journals.
    http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k77982&tabgroupid=icb.tabgroup143448

    • Pekka Janhunen

      April 25, 2012 at 10:40 am

      Finnish universities and the Academy of Finland have had that kind of recommendation in force for about 2-3 years now as I remember.

    • GreenWin

      April 25, 2012 at 8:26 pm

      Another brick in the old school wall dismantled. A few more months there’ll be nothing left but smoke.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        April 25, 2012 at 9:07 pm

        The open source journals are similar to the old ones in their peer review process and such, the difference is that the author pays instead of the reader so that reading is free. It makes science results more accessible. To lower the publication threshold some journals waive the publication fee for authors from low income countries.

  6. Quax

    April 25, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    This is excellent news.

  7. Kim

    April 25, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    Our society is run by concept “artificial scarcity”

    If it scarce then it has “value”

    Men known as bankers, gather scarcity. gold energy diamonds ect…

    If there is not enough than it has more control value.

    What a crock… Its the grand illusion perpetuated
    from Birth.

    There is plenty of every thing ad nauseum.

    Its the lynch pin to control. i.e. “Slaves”

    Energy is free.

    Why do you think that they suppress it in your face.

    The last thing they want is for the people know
    that every thing is free and abundant.

    Respect
    Kim

    • Pekka Janhunen

      April 25, 2012 at 6:07 pm

      Maybe it is so. But in my books there is no “them”: them are just us.

    • Ivy Matt

      April 25, 2012 at 7:33 pm

      I wouldn’t say energy is free, but it is abundant. Finding a way to liberate that energy in a safe, controlled manner is a bit of a challenge, but I think it’s only a matter of time before it happens.

      • GreenWin

        April 25, 2012 at 8:28 pm

        The Leopoldo Pirelli HS kids are kicking that door open while the old timers here blog. Looks like the torch has been passed.

        • JNewman

          April 26, 2012 at 12:51 am

          I always want to ask if you actually believe the stuff you post, or just get a kick out of saying it. But I don’t expect a truthful answer.

  8. Al Potenza

    April 25, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    In a probably in vain effort to stop the deterioration of this discussion, here is an article which could have been titled “Make your own LENR cell for fun and profit”.

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/english-translation-of-build-instructions-for-pirelli-athanor-cell/

    The translation is a bit funky, I think.

  9. david

    April 25, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    Forum Thread dedicated to ..

    Energy Brillouin
    http://lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=89

    Defkalion
    http://lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=87

    Rossi
    http://lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=86

    Nichenergy
    http://lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=88

    After you have registered you can discuss,
    We need critical thinking people 🙂

    Create a network with others who share the same interests as you do.

    /David

  10. Bob

    April 25, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    An interesting “main stream” article about the University of Missouri research effort in LENR.

    http://mizzouweekly.missouri.edu/archive/2012/33-28/reactor/index.php?utm_source=Homepage&utm_medium=Homepage&utm_campaign=homepageBanne

    • Pekka Janhunen

      April 25, 2012 at 8:09 pm

      The tone of the article is much more positive than most other mainstream ones, yet nicely unsensational. If this type of journalism continues, LENR is just now entering mainstream in an orderly way. Mats Lewan probably would like to read it.

    • Quax

      April 26, 2012 at 5:00 am

      This is encouraging news. Will be interesting to see what results they will get. Thanks for the link.

  11. GreenWin

    April 25, 2012 at 8:12 pm

    This is what results when real philanthropists give money away to expand knowledge. Thank you Sidney Kimmel and SK Inst. Nuclear Renaissance at U Mizzou.

    Of course the foot draggers and poltroonish attached to the fission department remain – as in David Robertson who clearly has not heard that SRI, Brillouin and Dr. McKubre have systems producing excess heat 100% of the time.

    Never-the-less – a certain dick head take notice.

    • Al Potenza

      April 25, 2012 at 8:47 pm

      Many people have heard it and yet they reasonably doubt that the heat is properly measured. If it is, that also does not mean it is of nuclear LENR/CF origin. Is that really so hard for you to grasp? You seem to repeat the same thing about excess heat over and over again.

      Yes, some people show excess heat. No, they can’t prove it’s LENR/CF. The amount of heat has never been impressive in terms of total energy release unless you include Defkalion and Rossi and we all know where those claims stand right now.

      When claims to large amounts of excess heat have been made, they can’t be verified independently. It is entirely reasonable to be skeptical of all the current claims. Every last one of them.

      BTW, it seems as if the experiments scheduled to spend the $5M grant won’t have anything to do with heat. At least for the ones announced recently, they will be experiments in which deuterium will be accelerated into palladium targets with a cyclotron. Presumably, they will look for fusion products.

      • GreenWin

        April 25, 2012 at 8:55 pm

        Certainly more than Robertson’s “20%.” Good thing Rob Duncan is Vice Chancellor Research.

        E Goliath cade.

      • LCD

        April 25, 2012 at 10:27 pm

        Hey Al, not trying to be cute or anything but here is an interesting phylosophical question ala georgehaunts.

        If all LANR experiments show excess heat to low.to rule out chemical or error and transmutations to few to rule out contamination or error and many different people report the same thing, does it then follow if LANR is proven to be real and nuclear we should also believe aliens & UFOs are real?

        Makes you wonder.

    • dsm

      April 26, 2012 at 10:43 pm

      GreenWin
      You have behaved fairly wellbehaved of late – keep it up – but do cut the insults to DS. Taking your spleen out on him implies you blame him because no one claims his $1 mill prize whilst ignoring why no one claims it.
      .
      That is a gaping hole in emotion driven logic.
      .
      Re the High school kids in Italy – that was a marvelous bit of news but again we can see that while the impact of what they achieved is great (a wake up call to some), however there are repeated gross exaggerations of claims about the energy output & duration which needs tempering.
      .
      DSM

  12. GreenWin

    April 25, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    “In 2011, John Gahl, professor of electrical engineering and director of MU’s Material Science Program, received a Mizzou Advantage grant to conduct low-energy nuclear reaction experiments using the Reactor’s cyclotron.”

    “Seven different major research groups in two colleges and in two major inter-disciplinary centers at MU are planning to participate in this effort to determine the physical origin of the AHE,” [Anomalous Heat Effect – Cold Fusion ] Duncan elaborated.

    “We will use a wide range of measurement systems that have not been conventionally used in these studies to determine the physical origin of the AHE. Our approach is adaptive, in that we will follow the Scientific Method as we design new experiments based upon our experimental results to test future hypotheses.

    Simply stated, we will go where the data from well-controlled experiments lead us, and that direction is impossible to predict until we have the data.” Dr. Rob Duncan, Vice Chancellor U Missouri Research

  13. JKW

    April 26, 2012 at 12:48 am

    Wow, this forum is progressing into the fringe realm at a fantastic rate. Sad but maybe not entirely suprprising. With Rossi busy building his robitized hot air factories all is left is news about high school kids advancing the frontiers of human knowledge with tabletop science fair projects.

    • JNewman

      April 26, 2012 at 12:53 am

      There are always plenty of straws out there; might as well grasp them.

  14. CuriousChris

    April 26, 2012 at 1:29 am

    Just for a change of pace I have been reading about evacuated tube transport.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain

    Alas while the technology is real and quite old it seems the scammers are at it.

    One website is offering licenses at $100.00 a piece et3.com as far as I can tell they do not own any technology rights yet they are offering licenses? which means if you try to build one under licence you are probably in breach of a patent.

    Totally ignoring the apparent scammer (I have emailed him for details). Evacuated tube transport seems to be such a fantastic idea. Even if only for freight or mail one wonders why it hasn’t yet been built anywhere in the world.

    James bond even used the idea in “the living daylights”

    • JKW

      April 26, 2012 at 2:22 am

      The answer is – truly astronomical costs. The whole maglev concept has never really caught on other than a couple of showcase projects, because of prohibitive costs. And this was just about regular ground transportation at subsonic speeds.
      Also, the technical challenges would be enormous. Imagine a small imperfection in the track when you are traveling at 4000 mph. What do we do with earthquakes and possible ground shifts? Imploding tunnel would make a great disaster movie.

      • CuriousChris

        April 26, 2012 at 3:20 am

        Yes there are many potential to overcome. but you start with mail/freight. and iron out the problems.

        One of the reasons for going underground is to avoid kinks. of course an earthquake is a pretty big kink but we take far greater risks every day just going to and from work.

        Clearly capital costs are the biggest impediment. After that running costs bring it down to much cheaper than traditional transport methods.

        Still fascinating stuff.

      • Quax

        April 26, 2012 at 4:24 am

        The whole maglev concept has never really caught on.

        Is that so? I guess somebody forgot to tell the Chinese.

        • Mahron - A4 B2

          April 26, 2012 at 4:29 am

          • JKW

            April 26, 2012 at 10:46 am

            Quax, Mahron,
            These are the couple of showcase projects where prestige took over the economics.

          • dsm

            April 26, 2012 at 10:28 pm

            Absolutely 🙂

            Zhong Hua’s Jiang Zemin & Zhu Rongji approved the project back when they ran the country, because it showcased a rampantly emerging ‘Zhong Hua’ (‘Middle Kingdom’ 🙂 ).
            .
            DSM

          • me

            April 27, 2012 at 3:49 am

        • Ivy Matt

          April 26, 2012 at 10:08 pm

          Eight years later you can take the maglev train anywhere you want in China…as long as it’s from Pudong International Airport to the Longyang Road Station in Shanghai or vice versa.

          • me

            April 27, 2012 at 3:46 am

            Yes, but the project wasn’t stopped because it wasn’t economically viable, or because the plans were incomplete/unfeasible. It was delayed because of community protests due to Chinese superstitions on magnetism. Then they went ahead and built a bullet train.

  15. GreenWin

    April 26, 2012 at 6:09 am

    High school kids let the crickets loose.

    • Neil Taylor

      April 27, 2012 at 8:35 am

      Ha ha, I like that. Most everyone here probably has no idea what you mean, but they soon will if they can park it for a moment and look around…

      “Cold Fusion in Italian High School
      April 23, 2012
      A new and very interesting report is coming again out of Italy. The Repubblica Roma web site is reporting about a project carried out by teachers and students at the Leopoldo Pirelli industrial high school in Rome in which students have built cold fusion cells which according to one of the instructors involved have achieved excess heat levels of 400 per cent. A slide show of the devices can be seen here.

      Following this report, one of the instructors involved with the project, Ugo Abundo, emailed Daniele Passerini of the 22passi blog and provided more information. Abundo said that the cells used ‘free nanopowders’ in the cathode which they have patented. Abundo says that in a few days video and technical details will be made available (presumably online). It also appears that Passerini will be working to help publicize the project.”

  16. spacegoat

    April 26, 2012 at 11:00 am

    Quax Quote:
    “there is never a paradox if the quantum state is viewed as to be no more than a “catalogue of our knowledge”. Then the state is a probability list for all possible measurement outcomes”

    Isn’t this the same as probability cloud / good old hippie Copenhagen intepretation?

    @George
    Barking that the “world is quantum” is simultaneously reminiscent of Turrets syndrome and James Bond movies. Quite a paradox.
    The macro world is absolutely not quantum. I suspect the paradoxes of QM that you may adore will be resolved classically in the end. Like Einstein, I do not believe God plays dice.

    • georgehants

      April 26, 2012 at 11:26 am

      spacegoat, just one of a million scientific reports but I thought you may find it easier with pictures.–
      Quantum Breakthrough Stuns World – Quantum Mechanical effect on Macro scale object
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0xbyqngSA8

      • spacegoat

        April 26, 2012 at 2:30 pm

        Thanks George. Those TED seminars are good.
        I do realise that nature makes use of QM effects. However, I believe those effects that appear to be startling and unusual are due to a limited scientific viewpoint or perhaps due to built in limitations of human brains. Wave-particle duality is a similar conundrum. Of course Z-theory that you linked to a while back, purports to do away with the whole QM toolkit, and in a clasical way.

        Basically nothing has moved on in physical interpretation since the Schrödinger equation was first written down about 100 years ago. Though Quax argued above differently. Still waiting on his reply.

        QM is a black box. Physical interpretation is a vain pursuit at this tuime.

        • spacegoat

          April 26, 2012 at 2:36 pm

          … and using what Quax refers to as a Hippie interpretation is even more silly.

        • georgehants

          April 26, 2012 at 3:56 pm

          spacegoat, your opinion of the meaning of the Quantum is your concern.
          You say — “I do realise that nature makes use of QM effects.”
          And I will repeat the Fact that so far that is all I have said.
          Everything is Quantum at base, the classical World is built out of the Quantum reality.
          It you except the Quantum then you reject causality, or locality. re Bell at al.

          I am sure the depth and intellect of your philosophical interpretation of the Quantum, when it is published in a peer reviewed journal will be much admired and respected.

          I would rather just stick with facts here without opinion or philosophy.

          • georgehants

            April 26, 2012 at 4:08 pm

            spacegoat, as both Quax and yourself distort every comment made of Facts that do not agree with your self imposed interpretations and lack of knowledge I will once again leave you in your unpleasant World.
            Thank you.

          • General Zaroff

            April 26, 2012 at 5:53 pm

            georgehants,

            You blab on and on about how the world is quantum….yet you don’t seem to understand what that means or you are unwilling to be more precise.

            So, what do you mean? Take a chance and say something of substance. This will allow the rest of us to bask in the glory of your razor-sharp intellect.

            Anyways, if I didn’t know better I would say you are being very dogmatic about the whole quantum mechanics thing.

          • Quax

            April 26, 2012 at 8:06 pm

            Well, look at that, there’s a morsel of Truth:

            … you reject causality, or locality

            Causality stands, locality not so much.

            Well done George!

    • Quax

      April 26, 2012 at 7:56 pm

      Spacegoat, for the purpose of understanding that there is no paradox in this experiment the Copenhagen Interpretation will do.

      That’s part of the reason why it has never been challenged much. For the purpose of actual physics it doesn’t really matter how a measurement comes about, as long as we can get one. Physicists usually don’t much dwell on the role of the “observer” within that framework.

      Anyhow, what is happening in this experiment is that you get a list of binary code on both ends that is indistinguishable from random and standing on its own does not allow to infer a correlation. Once you get the results from the future measurement this changes as you now know that certain bits in each sequence are not just randomly flip sided but have to be because they are entangled. In Quantum Information Science this is well understood and can be leveraged to send significant more data over a qbit channel than a classical one. But you can not do it faster than light. You always need that little bit of classical information to sort your previously random looking data into something that carries a signal.

      As to how to ban the observer voodoo of the Copenhagen Interpretation I strongly lean towards Mohrhoff’s take on it

      Plan to write a bit more about this on my blog at some point.

  17. spacegoat

    April 26, 2012 at 11:15 am

    Re Bob’s link from above :
    http://mizzouweekly.missouri.edu/archive/2012/33-28/reactor/index.php?utm_source=Homepage&utm_medium=Homepage&utm_campaign=homepageBanne

    ” Duncan estimates that only $2 million in public money has been invested in trying to understand the anomalous heat effect. “I think it’s unusual, given the body of evidence, that there isn’t more money being spent to inquire what’s going on,” ”

    0.001 % of the spend on hot fusion. But for some, that is way too much already. Clearly the number of paths to energy freedom and abundance, with its myriad of positive effects on humanity is so large we can forget about LENR.

    • GreenWin

      April 26, 2012 at 4:46 pm

      Yep. DOE Dr. Chu, Commerce Secty John Bryson, and the President have a VERY hot potato on their hands.

      Here’s a plan recently outlined to the channel:

      Bryson runs the Patent Office – site of high level corruption. Dr. Chu is on record as dismissive of LENR – and they both supposedly work for Obama.

      Bryson is ex-CEO Edison Intl. – SoCal Edison parent. He needs to instruct his old friends on utilities transition to the new energy economy. Then US Pat Office can waiver LENR for manufacture in the United States. Dr. Chu needs to build a dedicated LENR task force directed to “district CHP” development (already started.)

      Further delays, foot dragging, stonewalling etc., will hamper the President’s campaign and put Chu and Bryson in dimming spotlight. Fast tracking ecat/utility branded LENR water heaters is a win for DOE, Commerce, and President Obama.

      • Al Potenza

        April 26, 2012 at 5:44 pm

        Fast tracking Rossi’s ecat? And what, may I ask, have you been smoking?

        • General Zaroff

          April 26, 2012 at 5:57 pm

          Hey Al, I actually think a number of posters here are residents of an insane asylum who have been granted internet access for good behaviour.

          • Al Potenza

            April 26, 2012 at 6:19 pm

            Maybe. With nothing interesting or worthwhile from Rossi or Defkalion in many months, the natives seem to be getting restless.

          • GreenWin

            April 26, 2012 at 11:16 pm

            True. I live on an island waiting for shipwreck victims to wash ashore. Then I send ’em into the jungle as prey. Not even a dangerous game – just good huntin’.

            http://bit.ly/JqjtCh

          • General Zaroff

            April 27, 2012 at 1:21 am

            GreenWin,

            You should consider building a lighthouse to guide ships onto some nice sharp rocks near your island. Sometimes, when providence is not so kind, you must help providence a bit.

          • GreenWin

            April 27, 2012 at 3:45 am

            Indeed General. I am deep in cahoots with Providence.

  18. Jami

    April 26, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    “0.001 % of the spend on hot fusion. But for some, that is way too much already.”

    Trying to catch up with this thread, I have to say “yes”, it is way too much. After all, even schoolkids can nowadays fuse atoms with a chemist starter kit – so what sense would it make to throw good money after some old f*rts in a lab somewhere doing the same? My youngest daughter got such a kit last christmas (cost less than 200 Euro, I think) and I’m sure she’s created some new elemtents already. Fortunately the house is still standing and none of us suffers from acute radiation syndrome (yet). My youngest son seems to lack far behind. He got some lego construction stuff for his birthday and when I asked him what he’s done with it, all he had to show was a car and a plane – no overunity whatsoever – but, sensing my disappointment, he was at least very convincing about the plane’s ability to fly to the moon.

    • General Zaroff

      April 26, 2012 at 8:21 pm

      Jami,

      I am sorry to hear your son is so far behind. I guess he might find a career as an aeronautical engineer, but compared to cold fusion research that is like working in a toll-booth.

    • Thicket

      April 26, 2012 at 9:16 pm

      My kids are full-grown so it’s too late for them. I have a great plan for future grandkids though. In the womb, they’ll hear full-length interviews with Andrea Rossi endlessly repeated.

      This way, they’re sure to have made earth-shattering technological breakthroughs by the time they are two.

      Either that, or they’ll become accomplished con-artists.

    • spacegoat

      April 27, 2012 at 7:00 am

      Jami,
      LOL
      (compliment)

  19. Jami

    April 26, 2012 at 9:51 pm

    That surely violates the geneva conventions.

  20. GreenWin

    April 26, 2012 at 11:03 pm

    “The 5 Stages of Loss and Grief”

    1. Denial and Isolation

    2. Anger

    3. Bargaining

    4. Depression

    5. Acceptance

    Skeps here are in Stage 3 – Bargaining. “The normal reaction to feelings of helplessness and vulnerability is often a need to regain control.

    Secretly, we may make a deal with God or our higher power in an attempt to postpone the inevitable. This is a weaker line of defense to protect us from the painful reality.”

    • Al Potenza

      April 26, 2012 at 11:53 pm

      So tell me then, which stage are investors in Rossi and Defkalion enjoying currently?

    • CuriousChris

      April 27, 2012 at 3:27 am

      Bargaining? with whom about what

      Personally I am at stage 5: Acceptance. Rossi et al all frauds

      Cold fusion extremely unlikely on all fronts. Yep I bought popeyes arguments. Its hard to deny clear logic when the only opposing point of view are rants and blind faith, with no supporting evidence just rehashing incomplete data and unfounded claims.

      You on the other hand seem to be oscillating between 1 and 2.

      • Quax

        April 27, 2012 at 4:56 am

        … the only opposing point of view are rants and blind faith …

        Well, that’s not entirely fair. The voices of ignorance are the loudest but there are also LCD and pekka.

        Popeye makes a very good case, but even with his bursts of energy he cannot give a complete review of the entire volume of published LENR papers.

        With Defkalion and Rossi not giving us any reason to believe them, I am essentially back to 60:40 odds against LENR. For me there is still too much activity in this area to close the case, although I’d really like to see some closure on this.

  21. CHemE

    April 27, 2012 at 12:12 am

    If we don’t hurry up and develop LENR the Chinese will and the price of their manufactured products will drop another 50% and our trade deficit will grow another 50%…

  22. GreenWin

    April 27, 2012 at 3:40 am

    Here is a political reason to end ALL fission reactor development that will be VERY hard to snuff. This letter from Senator Wyden has started an uprising on the US West Coast – if pool #4 collapses – it is a massive disaster.

    http://www.wyden.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Ambassador-Fujisaki.pdf

    Fukishima may be the single most “compelling” political reason to fast track LENR in the USA. The days of centralized nuke power are over. Distributed, clean, non-polluting LENR power is the BEST low cost alternative at the moment. NASA Langley, Glenn RC, Marshall Flight Center think so. As do Navy and DOD scientists. Senator Wyden may become one of its first political champions. Along with Senator Tarr.

    http://www.infiniteunknown.net/2012/04/22/fukushima-is-falling-apart-are-you-ready-for-a-mass-extinction-event/

    • JKW

      April 27, 2012 at 4:28 am

      “Fukishima may be the single most compelling political reason to fast track LENR in the USA”

      Why not fast track TeraWatt’s magnetic motors instead? Isn’t it a much better public investment given the reputable board backing up theIr claims vs. a handful of obscure LENR scientists? Looks like you enjoy beating the drum just to make a noise.

      • dsm

        April 27, 2012 at 6:23 am

        That was a low blow 🙂

        Greenie means well.

        D

    • Al Potenza

      April 27, 2012 at 7:47 am

      If I were you, I’d worry first about proving that robust and powerful LENR/CF is real and not a scam or a delusion. I’d love to see such proof and evidence but, far as I know, it isn’t out there yet.

      Your claim that NASA, the Navy and DOD fully endorse, as institutions, that LENR is real is without any visible support.

      I challenge you to find exact quotes from anyone who truly represents the administration of NASA, the US Navy or the DOD who says what you say they do. I bet you can not do it.

  23. Pekka Janhunen

    April 27, 2012 at 7:27 am

    (e-catworld.com/georgehants)Defkalion seeking to recruit 21 new people http://www.defkalion-energy.com/jobs