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Frank Acland Interviews Andrea Rossi

February 27, 2012

Frank over at e-catworld conducted an interview with Andrea Rossi at the weekend. I sympathise with him as the recording gremlins got involved and stole the audio. I have no doubt, however, that his post will reflect was was said. The most interesting aspect was AR’s claim that the German engineering firm, Siemens AG demonstrated a turbine at the Bologna factory. If Frank’s memory/notes are correct, this turbine can produce a 30% thermal/electric conversion efficiency at 251 C. That is quite astonishing and, if not in error, I see no reason why AR would lie in such a detail.

Following on the heels of the National Instruments controversy (where NI lent qualified agreement with AR’s account) this would be a silly exaggeration and so I do not think you should discount the details. It is also important not to read anything into the statement that Rossi did not say. Not all misunderstanding originate from the Italian inventor and we should be wary of our own tendency to jump to unwarranted conclusions. Such new technology, if the eCat eventually proves itself real, will advance the production of an electric version of the 1MW plant.

You can read the full article here.

Posted by on February 27, 2012. Filed under Bologna,Media & Blogs,products,Rossi. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

271 Responses to Frank Acland Interviews Andrea Rossi

  1. John Milstone

    February 27, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    One observation: Underwriter’s Laboratory would, as part of their normal operation, agree not to release any information about a customer’s product.

    However, there is absolutely no reason they would have an NDA preventing Rossi from saying anything he wanted to say about the process.

    If Rossi isn’t talking about U.L., it’s because he doesn’t want to, not because he can’t.

    • Methusela

      February 27, 2012 at 12:44 pm

      NDA’s? Pah, who needs them eh?

      • John Milstone

        February 27, 2012 at 12:51 pm

        NDA’s? Pah, who needs them eh?

        Rossi, apparently. Every time any independent information about his relationship with an organization has become public, it’s turned out that Rossi was lying about it.

        NDAs are a nice way for him to avoid being caught in more lies.

        As I stated above, U.L. has a standard policy of protecting a customer’s intellectual property, not only from the public, but from other customers. Their NDA is built in to their standard operating procedures.

        However, they would never have a reason to require an NDA from a customer. That’s just Rossi’s excuse for not providing any actual evidence to support these latest claims.

        Notice that he’s also now claiming to have a “secret” contract with the University of Bologna, also under an NDA. Funny how he’s added that after being caught in a lie about his previous contract.

        • psi

          February 27, 2012 at 1:26 pm

          John, this is an absurd statement to make. Go back and read the entire history, for example, of Rossi’s involvement with NI. The final statement of NI spokesperson was actually linked to Rossi’s own statement about the relationship. If Rossi is lying, so is NI. The fact of the matter is that his working relationship with NI changed, for reasons Rossi himself makes clear. Connect the dots…the customer preferred to work with Seimens instead of NI. Why is that so hard to understand?

          • John Milstone

            February 27, 2012 at 1:32 pm

            psi, nonsense.

            Rossi dramatically changed his story when he discovered that NI was actually paying attention.

            For three months he was claiming that NI was working closely with him, solving technical problems related to the E-Cat. He at least implied that they were doing this work in this Bologna “factory”.

            Then, the NI spokesperson issued an email stating that they never got beyond discussing the possibility of Rossi buying some of their equipment, and that they provided some training.

            Suddenly, Rossi changed his story from “NI has been solving technical problems while working closely with us on the E-Cat” to “NI taught us some stuff over a few weeks”.

            The NI spokesperson then clarified that Rossi’s final statement was a reasonable description of their relationship. She also stated that she was NOT confirming any of this earlier statements.

            So, the only facts in evidence is that Rossi talked to NI about buying equipment, but never signed a contract, and that NI provided some training.

          • John Milstone

            February 27, 2012 at 1:42 pm

            I’ve pointed out in an earlier article that Rossi has definitely lied about his relationship with NI.

            HERE, Sterling Allan reports that Rossi claimed that a contract had been signed with NI to make all the control instrumentation for the E-Cat.

            NI clearly stated that there was no contract last November, and that there is no contract now.

            Someone is lying. Either Sterling Allan made the whole story up and Rossi let the lie go unchallenged, or Rossi lied to Allan who then distributed that lie to the world, or NI lied.

          • AB

            February 27, 2012 at 1:54 pm

            psi it’s pointless to argue with Milston. He is one of those people that don’t know the difference between “included talks” and “only talks”.

          • John Milstone

            February 27, 2012 at 1:59 pm

            He is one of those people that don’t know the difference between “included talks” and “only talks”.

            I do know the difference between “We signed a contract” (Rossi’s version) and “There was no contract” (NI’s version).

            Apparently, that’s too subtle for AB to understand.

          • AB

            February 27, 2012 at 2:25 pm

            “There was no contract” (NI’s version).

            You’re either intentionally misrepresenting things or suffer from reading comprehension issues. See this quote from the article.

            While Ms. Betts reiterated once again that Leonardo Corp was not currently a customer of National Instruments, there have been ongoing discussions between the two parties. Discussion is the key word here. Many, including myself, have taken this to mean there have been merely some preliminary discussions regarding a business relationship between the two parties. After my conversation with Ms. Betts, it would seem that the word “discussion” as used in this context has a meaning with somewhat more depth, with that meaning being ongoing technical collaboration between the parties. This collaboration has been at the level that Rossi has frequently alluded to in his comments on JONP and, specifically, to comments he made earlier this week. Over the past several months he has frequently stated that he was working with National Instruments on E-Cat development. I specifically asked Ms. Betts if these statements were exaggerations or outright lies on Mr. Rossi’s part and she informed me that THEY WERE NOT, and that indeed Mr. Rossi has been portraying Leonardo Corp’s work with National Instruments accurately.

          • John Milstone

            February 27, 2012 at 2:49 pm

            Julia Betts said in her email:

            Per our previous statement from November, we were only in discussions with the Leonardo Corporation regarding the use of National Instruments engineering tools. Currently Leonardo Corporation/Andrea Rossi is not a customer of National Instruments.

            So, no contract in November and no contract now. It takes a real stretch of the imagination to believe that there was a contract sometime in between.

            Prior to the release of this email, Rossi was claiming a close, technical relationship between NI and his “secret customer”, including such statements as (LINK)

            Andrea Rossi
            January 20th, 2012 at 4:51 PM
            Dear Stefan:
            As I answered to Giuseppe B., I never said that the 1 MW E-Cat has been already delivered to the Customer, probably it has been a misunderstanding due to not precise translation. As I repeatedly said, the 1 MW E-Cat is still in our Bologna Factory to complete the control system upgrading we are making with National Instruments and to make modifications asked from the Customer. The plant will be delivered in the next 1, maximum 2 months.
            Warm Regards,
            A.R.

            Then, when the NI email comes out, Rossi changes his story to:

            We have worked very well with N.I., and we have learnt from them very much. We are very grateful to them for all what they have teached to us, training our technological people in a very useful way, for weeks.

            This statement above is the only thing Julia Betts agreed with in her followup. Nothing about NI being at the Bologan “factory” working on the abandoned Megawatt E-Cat. Nothing about NI solving technical issues.

            Only that the trained Rossi’s “technical people” in “a useful way”.

            Reading anything more in to this is grasping at straws.

          • John Milstone

            February 27, 2012 at 2:53 pm

            AB, I also find it interesting that you resort to quoting the commentary about the story (by a E-Cat enthusiast) to try to make your point.

          • AB

            February 27, 2012 at 2:57 pm

            Rossi version and NI version are fully compatible and consistent with each other.

          • John Milstone

            February 27, 2012 at 3:01 pm

            AB: Rossi’s version isn’t even consistent with Rossi’s version.

            I notice that you’re ignoring the part about Rossi lying about having signed a contract with NI in mid-November, which was specifically denied by NI.

          • AB

            February 27, 2012 at 3:16 pm

            <blockquote<AB: Rossi’s version isn’t even consistent with Rossi’s version.

            I notice that you’re ignoring the part about Rossi lying about having signed a contract with NI in mid-November, which was specifically denied by NI.

            There is nothing inconsistent. It may appear that way if you’re struggling to follow the story. Let me sum it up:

            1) In November Rossi says he’s working with NI.
            2) In February New Energy Times says Rossi has no relationship with NI. This is based on the following quotes:

            “Leonardo Corporation/Andrea Rossi is currently not a customer, partner or distributor of National Instruments,” Betts wrote.

            Per our previous [news release] from November,” Betts wrote, “we were only in discussions with the Leonardo Corporation regarding the use of National Instruments’ engineering tools. Currently, Leonardo Corporation/Andrea Rossi is not a customer of National Instruments.

            3) Rossi is asked about the state of his relationship with NI and he confirms that their relationship has ended.

            3) Soon after, the Julia Betts article emerges which explains that the “discussions” were actually more than talk but technical collaboration.

            If you see inconsistency in this then it’s a problem on your side.

          • John Milstone

            February 27, 2012 at 3:38 pm

            3) Soon after, the Julia Betts article emerges which explains that the “discussions” were actually more than talk but technical collaboration.

            She said no such thing. That is an assumption by the author of the article.

          • B Fast

            February 27, 2012 at 6:20 pm

            John Milstone, you seem to think that proving that Rossi lies/exaggerates is going to change something. Rossi once claimed that he had been heating a warehouse with a 1Mw plant for a year. That was balderdash. Rossi lies. There is no question about it. The next question is, does Rossi ever tell the truth? If he does, then how can you tell when he lies and when he tells the truth?

            I am of the mind that Rossi was not brave enough or liar enough to pull off a close-quarters, hours long, scam on multiple Ph.D.s multiple times.

          • CuriousChris

            February 28, 2012 at 9:06 am

            Did NI Support Rossi’s statement?

            You have to take Ben’s word for it. He refused to produce the email that had the link to the statement. The rest of the conversation is uncorroborated.

            As far as I can tell NI only corroborated that they wanted to sell Rossi stuff.

    • CuriousChris

      February 27, 2012 at 1:03 pm

      UL stated in an email to me that there is no device by Leonardo Corp with a current UL certification.

      They could not state whether their was any device being considered for certification. normal privacy rules apply.

      Considering their openness, an NDA seems like an excuse for more name dropping from the biggest name dropper of all, Rossi.

      And now that NI is out of the way and admits they tried to sell him stuff and that apparently was their sole relationship (that’s how I read it). He is into name dropping again.

      Universities, companies, unnamed ‘military’ buyers. all with no proof of any real arrangements. Real as in Rossi has spent large sums with them. Nothing more than sales pitches.

      I guess I can now claim a relationship with UL because we traded emails.

      With DGT so badly on the nose its seems Rossi is in the same boat. In my opinion its sinking.

      Oh yeah and another 16-18 months for something that was supposed to be on sale last October.

      Dick Smiths words are ringing in my ears…

      • John Milstone

        February 27, 2012 at 1:16 pm

        My father was a consulting engineer who worked with U.L. on a daily basis for 25 years.

        They are very careful to protect the customer’s information, since they by definition have access to that information before the general public. They go so far as to isolate their personnel so that the same people don’t work on competing products, to avoid any chance of “cross contamination”.

        But, their process is open. Since they are effectively a regulating body, it has to be. There is absolutely no reason that Rossi can’t say whatever he wants to about the process.

        • C M Edwards 9%

          February 27, 2012 at 2:01 pm

          Rossi is clearly saying whatever he wants to about the process. 🙂

      • Methusela

        February 27, 2012 at 1:38 pm

        Indeed, and your statements, as of those by Rossi and DFG, should be viewed as rubbish until we see all the proof…

        • Methusela

          February 27, 2012 at 1:41 pm

          That was to CuriousChris BTW; don’t want to distract John from his house.

      • Dale G. Basgall

        February 27, 2012 at 2:52 pm

        Just a question Chris; I have had several devices tested from U.L. and all went into the medical field and were targeted for hospitals and home cares.

        When I called U.L. they had a program called field service where they drive their lab out from one of their locations and test as requested by the manufacturer.

        One of the products was 485 lbs. so they opted to drive their lab out to the middle of nowhere Kansas and tested the electrical components as well as the csa people. This was required by FDA to legally offer for sale a product intended for hospitals. What does U.L. have anything to do with Rossi and the e-cat? someone has to have guidlines to follow or the test doesn’t really have any valid need at this time.

        The product also has to be completely functional unless they are going to see if the heaters have U.L. or csa testing. That is so wild it seems not to fit in a believable story.

        Is FDA involved I wonder, when I contacted them to ask no one communicated back as to if FDA has any rules or guidlines regarding the LENR devices. Hospital laundry rooms could really benefit from the water heaters.

        • John Milstone

          February 27, 2012 at 3:10 pm

          In most states, you need a U.L. listing in order to sell items in the consumer market that use household electricity, heat or anything else which could endanger the public. It isn’t just for FDA-related items.

          You’re right that U.L. requires working, production-ready devices to test. They will allow prototypes, but those prototypes must be build using the same materials and processes that will be used in production.

          Rossi’s E-Cat will require certification based on its electrical usage, the extreme heat it (supposedly) will generate (over 1000C IIRC) and the combination of electricity and water.

          There’s also the question of radioactive byproducts. Rossi would have to prove that it’s impossible for the device to emit things like gamma rays while being used. I don’t know how he would do this. He doesn’t have a generally-accepted theory of how the device (supposedly) works, so they would have to do significant testing to insure that it can’t release nuclear or radioactive byproducts under any reasonable conditions. That would take a lot of testing!

          One good point for Rossi: U.L. doesn’t care if the E-Cat actually works. They only care whether it’s safe. However, they will require that the test devices be able to perform as described by Rossi.

        • CuriousChris

          February 27, 2012 at 10:04 pm

          My understanding is that you can bring in a device at almost every stage of development. You can only certify the saleable product but they will work with you all the way to ensure you can reach certification.

          That’s from my reading of the UL website not from personal experience.

      • CuriousChris

        February 28, 2012 at 9:23 am

        Here’s the email sent to me I didnt have it when I posted the above comment as II was at work.

        Received: from mail199.messagelabs.com ([216.82.254.179])
        by ipmailmx06.adl2.xxxxxxxxxxxxx.net with SMTP; 27 Jan 2012 02:49:52 +1030
        X-Env-Sender: Billie.J.Bond@us.ul.com
        X-Msg-Ref: server-6.tower-199.messagelabs.com!1327594780!88476625!1
        X-Originating-IP: [12.32.89.67]
        X-StarScan-Version: 6.5.5; banners=us.ul.com,-,-
        X-VirusChecked: Checked
        Received: (qmail 27129 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2012 16:19:40 -0000
        Received: from unknown (HELO USNBKM202P.global.ul.com) (12.32.89.67)
        by server-6.tower-199.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 26 Jan 2012 16:19:40 -0000
        Received: from uscamm401.us.ul.com ([10.50.201.1])
        by USNBKM202P.global.ul.com (Lotus Domino Release 8.5.1FP4 HF26)
        with ESMTP id 2012012610194172-105467 ;
        Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:19:41 -0600
        Subject: Leonardo Corporation Inquiry *Billie J. Bond
        To: xxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx
        X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5.1 FP3 May 24, 2010
        Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:19:53 -0800
        Sender: Billie.J.Bond@us.ul.com
        From: CustomerExperienceCenter@us.ul.com

        Dear Mr. XXXXXXXXXXXX,

        Thank you for your recent inquiry regarding Leonardo Corporation. I
        checked our on-line certifications directory and find no products certified
        for this corporation. Client information as you may know is proprietary
        so I cannot comment on any projects or products currently under
        investigation.

        Our on-line certifications directory is available to the public free of
        charge and may be accessed via ul.com and I have included a link for you:

        http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/

        Just scroll to the bottom of the home page and in the gray colored area
        click on “Online Certifications Directory”. This Directory provides
        information on all products that have listings with the UL Mark.

        Thank you for your concern and I hope the above information is helpful.

        Best Regards,
        Billie

    • Joe Taylor

      February 27, 2012 at 2:09 pm

      If anyone is lying it is John M. I am so sick of the trash that he spews. Seriously John why do you post endlessly. Get a life.

      • Methusela

        February 27, 2012 at 2:10 pm

        I’m specifically posting here, to remind admin not to delete posts, but to remove the content when moderating… 😉

        Otherwise it causes chaos.

      • Al Potenza

        February 27, 2012 at 4:27 pm

        Joe, if you dislike what John posts, please try refuting it with your own argument instead of trying to silence him.

        Do you have facts, other than what Rossi said, which make John wrong?

        • Bob D

          February 27, 2012 at 9:50 pm

          Joe,

          How much is Rossi paying you to inject venom like a slithering reptile??

          • CuriousChris

            February 27, 2012 at 10:06 pm

            It doesn’t help Bob to reply in kind. Best to ignore those who have nothing constructive to add. and when I say constructive I only mean well thought out commentary. whichever side of the fence one sits.

    • Lu

      February 27, 2012 at 4:10 pm

      Hank Mills I believe had a contact at UL who supposedly confirmed that Rossi did submit his E-Cat (or something) to the UL and that it was in process, something about making past the security state, IIRC. I wouldn’t bet the farm on this but it is some level of confirmation.

      If I’m reading Sterling Allan’s article correctly re NI, the postscript at the bottom indicated that there was a contract signed and that NI did confirm this:

      Thank you Sterling for allowing us to review. We approve the text, especially the National Instruments portion of the story that includes Stefano’s quote and information.

      Best regards
      Trisha

      • CuriousChris

        February 27, 2012 at 10:10 pm

        I would dispute this. I also contacted UL and as stated above they would not comment on anything going through certification. Which is of course the correct thing to do they would only say there was nothing certified.

        This means that Hank Mills who is a a Rossi fan may not be reporting the absolute truth. If UL did tell him that information they are in breach of standard practices.

        • Lu

          February 27, 2012 at 10:53 pm

          Hmmmm..I cannot seem to find the blog post where Hank Mills made this claim and Rossi confirmed, something like “Yes we know.” Maybe the blog post was deleted because it obviously indicated a breach by UL. The impression I got was Hank Mills had a friend who worked there who confirmed the application and that it had passed the security state. Or I could have just dreamed this up, LOL. I’m pretty sure I read this.

      • John Milstone

        February 27, 2012 at 10:25 pm

        Here is the Stefano Concezzi quote:

        “I would love for him to be right.

        “We support every kind of research for the betterment of human kind. Whoever is interested in doing that, we would be happy to support.”

        Absolutely nothing about a contract. Not even anything about a “relationship”. Just a hope that Rossi has something significant.

        It would be worth asking Trisha McDonell if this was the exact version of the story she “approved”.

        It certainly contradicts the comments of Julia Betts who stated that there was no contract during that time frame (mid-November).

        • Lu

          February 27, 2012 at 10:58 pm

          From the PESN article:

          http://pesn.com/2011/11/10/9601953_National_Instruments_signs_to_do_E-Cat_controls/

          “Today, Leonardo Corporation, led by Andrea Rossi, inventor and developer of the one-megawatt cold fusion E-Cat plant, signed an agreement with National Instruments (NI), to have them make all the instrumentation for the E-Cat plants”

          And then at the end under Postscript, Allan added an email from NI:

          Subject: Re: final Re: contact info for E-Cat / NI contract

          Thank you Sterling for allowing us to review. We approve the text, especially the National Instruments portion of the story that includes Stefano’s quote and information.

          Best regards
          Trisha

          Like I said, I wouldn’t bet the farm on this but it appears something was signed and NI did appear to confirm it. They would definitely call out any inaccuracies with regard to signing, IMO.

          • daniel maris

            February 27, 2012 at 11:43 pm

            It could well have been a memorandum of understanding – not a full contract but a precursor and it might even have involved apportionment of costs.

  2. Methusela

    February 27, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    I think ADMIN should create a separate area specifically for Dick Smith.

    This should be next to the GUIDELINES menu item.

    I’m not being sarcastic here.

    In this way, the newspapers would be able to more easily track his statements – and our replies.

    Could be an interesting historical archive.

  3. AB

    February 27, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    I immediately wrote an inquiry to UL about their relationship with Rossi. If no business relationship exists, it should be in their best interest to clarify this. If a business relationship exists, then the NDA allows mentioning that fact – anything else wouldn’t make sense since Rossi just mentioned it himself.

    As for Siemens, the nature of their relationship with Rossi is not clear, so I did not try to contact them.

    Also I have no doubt that pseudoskeptics are once again going to turn absence of evidence into evidence of absence while making no attempt to search for evidence.

    • John Milstone

      February 27, 2012 at 1:25 pm

      I’d be very surprised if they responded with anything other than “no comment”.

      If they are testing an E-Cat, that information would be confidential unless/until they issued a Listing.

      But, even if they have never heard of Rossi or his E-Cat, they still wouldn’t issue a statement. They would put themselves in a tricky business situation if they answered honestly, “Nope, never heard of the guy” when that guy could potentially walk in the next day. Then they would be in the awkward position of having to retract or amend their earlier statement.

      So, they won’t say anything unless they do have a relationship with Rossi and Rossi specifically allows them to say something.

      Rossi, on the other hand, can say whatever he wants. His claim that he is prevented from doing so because of an NDA is nonsense.

  4. spacegoat

    February 27, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    If the LENR principles used by AR/DGT are broadly the same then DGT’s 600 C will yield greater efficiency, perhaps 5% more?

    What will be the market reaction for DGT’s more expensive unit with higher efficiency and power?

    This reminds me of a comment posted by LU elsewhere when he/she said that at the low temperatures of AR, calculations showed that Natural Gas would be cheaper? I found this confusing. Surely once acquisition costs are paid for, any energy device with a COP greater than 1 pays for itself, apart from the few grams of nickel dust?

    Perhaps Lu or someone else can enlighten me on how using any fossil fuel can compete with a device with COP >1 (once acquisition costs are accepted).

    • CuriousChris

      February 27, 2012 at 1:10 pm

      You are not taking into account running costs.

      The calculation assumed gas was 4 times cheaper than electricity per Kw and Rossi’s device had a cop of 6. Therefore allowing for the electricity required to keep the Rossi’s device running as well as the cost of 6 monthly service and replacement cartridge’s. It worked out Rossi’s device was only marginally better than gas.

      • Peter Roe

        February 27, 2012 at 1:36 pm

        And that calculation refers to thermal output.

        If COP is 6 and efficiency of conversion to electricity is c.30% then electricity generated by an Ecat will be only approximately half the price of mains electricity, before factoring in the capital cost and the cost of servicing/maintenance. Useful, but not earth-shattering. Admittedly the other 70% or energy can probably be largely recovered as heat, but a fair amount of additional kit would be needed to do this, further increasing capital costs.

        The bottom line is that the ‘advertised’ COP is only just viable for power generation, and Rossi needs to focus his efforts on increasing this value.

        Disclaimer: All comments I may make on technical issues relating to Ni-H heaters assume the existence and sometime availability of such devices for the purposes of discussion. I do not necessarily infer as fact that such devices are possible, that Leonardo Corp., or DGT will shortly make such devices available to the public, or that fairies steal my socks from the wash. This disclaimer is to be inferred in respect of all posts made here, whether or not it is actually stated. Your mileage may vary.

        • CuriousChris

          February 27, 2012 at 10:12 pm

          Yes Peter I should have specified thermal output. in the original example it was in relation to heating a house.

          Love the disclaimer. 🙂

      • spacegoat

        February 27, 2012 at 11:54 pm

        I think an important distinction is the 1.electricity to keep the device under control/stable and 2. the electricity required to trigger the reaction.

        2. is probably orders of magnitude greater.

        • CuriousChris

          February 28, 2012 at 2:44 am

          Yeah it doesn’t make much sense does it.

          The ecat supposedly can run for 2 hours in self sustained mode with only control electronics and then the heater needs to run for 30 minutes (if I recall correctly).

          If the major purpose of the supply current is the resistive heater, then why does it need another injection of heat to keep it running. the flow rate could be set to ensure it keeps the correct temperature.

          This means that perhaps the heater is really a red herring. Maybe the current is used in some form of electrolysis?

          If correct it means the real COP is somewhere around 24 (ignoring initial startup)

          Output 10kw * 2hrs = 72Mj
          Input 1.67Kw * 30min = 3Mj
          Cop = 72/3=24

          Perhaps Rossi doesn’t understand this or his claim the ecat runs unassisted for 2 hours is misleading. Maybe he just forgot he said it could run in self sustain mode?

        • Peter Roe

          February 28, 2012 at 8:45 am

          SG – yes that is an important distinction. It seems reasonable to assume that ‘maintenance’ power may be much lower than initial heating power, so running the device for long periods may increase the COP significantly (just an assumption of course).

          Of course, the converse is also a possibility, i.e., that COP=6 IS the output from long operating periods, and output will fall some way below this value for short cycles. Who knows – we are running on vapour (or ‘vaporware’ as some skeptics have it!).

    • Stephen T.

      February 27, 2012 at 1:17 pm

      The efficiency question is interesting. Having read some good posts about it I questioned how 30% could be obtained at 251C, more good posts indicate it may need to involve supercritical CO2 to allow very low cold end temperatures. Calculations led to 29% or so.
      I think this may tend to even out the cost factors. At 600C more conventional means can be used to get to reasonable efficiency. At 251C the conversion would seemingly be more expensive. IMHO, with thanks to those other posters who I refrain from naming only because they might not want their names used.

    • Loop

      February 27, 2012 at 1:21 pm

      10kw unit is not autonomous system, Rossi said that it will require electricity and you need to keep the current heating system???

      He didn’t explained how much electricity and how much temperature from the actual old heating system his device require for the 10kw E-cat unit.

    • daniel maris

      February 27, 2012 at 1:35 pm

      I asked Lu to clarify their calculations. The cost is really coming from the one sixth electricity needed to keep the e cat process going it woul appear from his statements. Electricity is much more expensive than nat gas. However, I am not clear over what period Lu is amortising the cost. 10 years might be reasonable for this new product. Is Lu then adding on interest for that? Also – how many hours is Lu using for the calculations. Obviously in Northern climes we have the heating on for thousands of hours every year.

      Still I think it is clear as I have said all along that this is NOT free energy. It is v. cheap energy.

    • Lu

      February 27, 2012 at 4:42 pm

      Rossi’s E-Cat requires electrical input to provide the resistive heating necessary to run. He has looked into using natural gas to do the resistive heating but as a recent comment indicates it doesn’t look promising. Regardless of self-sustaining mode etc it still has a COP of 6. Rossi has never budged on this.

      With a COP of 6 and an output of 10KW you need something like 15AMPs@110V of electrical current on the average at all times while the E-Cat is running. I’m not sure about this but I think the E-Cat is always on (during the heating season) so you are drawing 15AMPs all the time. To regulate heat one has to divert the heat. I say this because Rossi indicates that it takes 1 hour to start up the E-Cat and 1 hour to shut it down and also other comments he has made. Please correct me if I am wrong because I view this as a big negative!

      While the E-Cat has a COP of 6 we are still using electricity to essentially do the heating. In my area electricity is 4.5 times more expensive than NG for kW heat produced ($.17 kWh elec vs $.037 kWh NG). (I’m not considering efficiencies here.) So one does come out better on a cost basis since 6 > 4.6 but it’s not earth shaking. I’m not counting the cost of the E-Cat refill which should be negligible. Doing an energy audit on your house and taking basic energy saving steps will probably accomplish the same or better savings.

      This is off my last bill and includes all costs. It’s going to be different for each person based on use and location. I think it’s too early to do a full life cycle cost analysis since we just don’t know all that much. Who knows, at some point we may see tax incentives and rebates from the power company along the lines of solar power.

      Based on what we do know however, it appears to be only a marginal improvement based on cost of energy. Defkalion, if they are to be believed, has a COP of 25+ which will easily outperform the E-Cat on a cost basis over the full life-cycle no matter how cheap the E-Cat is.

      Besides the fact that we don’t know whether these things work at all, I wouldn’t go out and buy one without doing some kind of cost analysis to see how much it is going to save/cost you.

      • un passante

        February 27, 2012 at 7:02 pm

        Look at the positive aspect of this. Rossi the scammer would have best claimed far better COP and savings for his fake device which noone will ever see.

        Thank you for highlighting. Who knows, maybe the MaryYugo’s, the rich one above all, could take notice of this instead of focusing only on the supposed negatives. I say supposed because it’s apparent that their convictions tend to forge the reality they see. John MaryYugo Milstone and his take at the NI story is evidence of this. I bet Dick MaryYugo Smith is not much different (see how he backpedals when someone ask for real facts and proofs)

        BTW even a lower COP and less savings compared to other options would be revolution if it is produced by a first generation LENR device.

      • un passante

        February 27, 2012 at 8:28 pm

        Look at the positive aspect of this. Rossi the scammer would have best claimed far better COP and savings for his fake device which noone will ever see.

        Thank you for highlighting. Who knows, maybe the MaryYugo’s, the rich one above all, could take notice of this instead of focusing only on the supposed negatives, the things that in their mind ppoint to a fraud. I say supposed because it’s apparent that their convictions tend to forge the reality they see. John MaryYugo Milstone and his take at the NI story is evidence of this. I bet Dick MaryYugo Smith is not much different (see how he backpedals when someone ask for real facts and proofs)

        BTW even a lower COP and less savings compared to other options would be revolution if it is produced by a first generation LENR device.

        • un passante

          February 27, 2012 at 8:31 pm

          oops. one of the two should be deleted. I thought I forgot to click reply the first time when I got back to my pc.

  5. NH

    February 27, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    NDA’s are for the use of protecting a companies inventions, property and rights. Innuendo to the contrary is just that. An innuendo is an indirect intimation about a person or thing, especially of a disparaging or a derogatory nature…

    Starts early in here.

  6. Loop

    February 27, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    Its very strange also that Rossi is hiding the name of company who bought Leonardo Corp. because if they joined companies then Rossi and the new company were obligated to inform all of the 10.000 or 100.000 people who made half-agreement with Leonardo Corp. about ordering the 10kw unit.
    Either the new company would announce the new announcement about collecting the new list of people who will order or pre-order the 10kw unit, or they should send the new agreement to old pre-customers about the new name of the company.
    In the case of a joint venture the name should state both names in either case there couldn’t be just the name Leonardo corp.

  7. LCD

    February 27, 2012 at 1:03 pm

    So the way I understand it it will be another four months until the next1 MW power plant is sold?

  8. DvH

    February 27, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    it would be helpful to find out what exactly means ‘siemens demonstrated a turbine capable of …’:
    1.) does it mean siemens were at AR’s factory and *ran* a physical turbine in some demo-setup?
    2.) or does it mean they showed it on a video on their laptops?

    1.) requires some determination/logistics/effort
    2.) is standard program of a sales-gang visit

    • Frank Acland

      February 27, 2012 at 2:38 pm

      From what Rossi told me (and to the best of my memory and notes), Siemens were in Bologna and they ran the turbine with the announced results.

      • Al Potenza

        February 27, 2012 at 4:25 pm

        Frank, good job on the interview. Why not call Siemens and confirm that they actually ran an ecat with a turbine? Why not try to fact check some of the other things Rossi said?

  9. JNewman

    February 27, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    With Rossi reiterating his plans for the home ecat, it is important to understand just what sort of device he is describing. So for this purpose, let’s set aside all the arguments about what is real and what isn’t and just assume that in a year or 18 months or whatever, this product will become available. So what can it do?

    Rossi describes a small box with 10 kW of heat output between 40 and 80 degrees C. Presumably, this is in the form of heated water, since there is no discussion of any kind of radiator or blower or such. Rossi describes these units as being designed to be added on to existing heating systems, not to replace them. So perhaps they have a water inlet and a water outlet.

    What can a 10 kW water heater do? 10 kW is 34,000 BTU. A BTU is the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of a pound of water by one degree. The rest is arithmetic. This ecat is very much the functional equivalent of a small, on-demand water heater. If used by itself, it could easily provide hot water to a sink. On the other hand, at least two would be required for a typical shower. Alternatively, a 34,000 BTU output, if used efficiently enough, could provide space heating for an average room, although water heating might not be the most effective way to heat a room with that amount of heat. As for price, a conventional 34,000 BTU tankless water heater would be considerably cheaper than the proposed price for the home ecat. For $600-900, one can buy a 200,000 BTU unit at a hardware store.

    So where does that leave us? As described, the home ecat represents a potential replacement for a small heating appliance, or more likely, a way to enhance the performance of a larger system. With its high COP, it would be much more energy efficient than competing devices and would therefore certainly pay back its higher cost over time (keep in mind though that a COP of 6 does not mean that it runs for free. There are various heat pumps available with comparable COP values.)

    If this device is truly the first commercial application of LENR technology, then it would have enormous significance. There is no doubt about that. But realistically, it would not have enormous value.

    • Peter Roe

      February 27, 2012 at 1:59 pm

      JNewman, your comments are obviously accurate, but I think you are comparing an ‘Ecat heater too closely with conventional gas or oil powered domestic boilers. Assuming they actually become available, the strength of Ni-H is (obviously) not their high output, but the fact that the output can be maintained continuously and no significant extra cost, day and night. Therefore, over any given 24 hour period, the total energy output would be more than adequate for domestic space heating and hot water requirements, **provided that** a means of storing significant amounts of heat is included within overall system design.

      The appropriate technology already exists in the form of ‘thermal stores’ – large (250 litre+) insulated hot water tanks from which heat is taken as required by means of flat plate heat exchangers.

      These items are expensive and very heavy, but without them a 10 kW Ecat heater would, as you say, struggle with demand in colder climates. If Rossi’s proposal is to just ‘piggy back’ the 10 kW box onto existing non-storage CH/HW systems then this is only a marginally attractive proposition. However with a further outlay for a large thermal store (probably slightly cheaper than using a second Ecat) such devices would be completely viable for home use in most areas.

      • Peter Roe

        February 27, 2012 at 2:06 pm

        ‘and no significant extra cost’ please read ‘at no significant extra cost’.

      • JNewman

        February 27, 2012 at 2:12 pm

        I don’t disagree. This would be something like a single solar thermal panel, which can produce as much as 50,000 BTUs under sunny conditions (and obviously with effectively infinite COP), but would be considerably more valuable in that it can operate continuously. There is no doubt that such a device would be useful. But it is also important to realize that it would not the some kind of miracle device for the home that eliminates people’s energy expenses. But perhaps this would be the foremost example of the old adage: it’s not how well the elephant dances, it is that it dances at all.

        • Peter Roe

          February 27, 2012 at 2:27 pm

          Yes, agreed. Of necessity, any device that makes it to the marketplace in the sort of hurry that may be the case, will be a ‘model T’ ecat or hyperion, and improvements would naturally follow.

          As an aside, nearly all new properties in the UK are built using a type of gas heater (‘combination’ boiler) that can supply hot water on demand as well as heating circulating water, so dispensing with the need for or provision of a HW storage tank. These units are also being commonly specified when existing boilers are due for renewal, with the old HW tanks and pipework being removed at the same time. If this is common practice elsewhere then the first Ecats may have much smaller potential market than might be assumed from running costs alone.

    • Mahron - A4 B2

      February 27, 2012 at 2:29 pm

      Who cares really ? If it is real it will be rendered crap in less than a year by proper research. No way this would be the best cop you can pull out of it.

      • JNewman

        February 27, 2012 at 2:40 pm

        Higher COP is one thing, higher temperature is another. 80 C water is useful but isn’t going to make the world go round. But as you say, if this is real, then things would get very interesting indeed. If it is real.

        • Al Potenza

          February 27, 2012 at 4:23 pm

          I think you’d be able to sell a million ecats the first year for hot water alone. Just think of all the places that need low cost heat in the winter. And the ecat, if it works as advertised, makes dry steam. The space heater app alone would make it an overwhelming success commercially.

          As you say, if it’s real, it would be rapidly improved.

  10. BArney

    February 27, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    Am I the only one who fears another “Tucker scam”, when I read such a statement?:

    “Rossi emphasized that the 10 kW units are designed to be added on to existing heating systems, not to replace them. It will be an appendage that can be used to provide heat to whatever system already exists in homes, allowing users to save on their current sources of fuel. ”

    Mhhh, let’s see:
    Something that has to be added to your existing boiler…
    A device which would save energy and money…
    Yes, this is he tucker device! (I don’t know what is the name in english: it was a tube to be placed somewhere in your car and guaranteed enormous gas savings. Obviously, no gas savings were demonstrated anymore by any independent test… Something similar is the infamous Quadro detector: http://www.skepdic.com/quadro.html)

    Barney

    • Peter Roe

      February 27, 2012 at 3:01 pm

      No, Ni/H heaters are not remotely comparable to the various car engine ‘bolt ons’ claimed to increase mileage or power. Any items offered for sale will do what is claimed or they could not be sold through any reputable supply chain. Your comment is frankly idiotic – please read though a few threads to learn about what is actually being discussed here.

    • dsm

      February 27, 2012 at 8:38 pm

      BArney

      The home eCat can be thought of as a small heater that has a water inlet and an outlet. The flow rate of water through it determines how much heat is extracted. Too fast a reat & the water is warm, too slow & the water gets hot.

      There are issues for such an appliance if it produces steam (explosions burns etc ).

      Rossi always stated (& this makes sense) that if the eCat gets too hot (i.e. ambient temp is very high + no water flowing through it) then the Ni powder melts & the reactor ceases working & needs replacing.

      What is missing from an eCat is the mechanisms for utilizing the heat an eCat generates. The Hyperion (DefkalionGT) was originally just such a device. It used a plug-in eCat & was a complete home heating system.

      Doug M

  11. Dale G. Basgall

    February 27, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    This Rossi thing isn’t really a scam at all, he is a flighty energetic bull in a china cleset that doesn’t know whe or have the ability to lower his ego enough to communicate fully with anyone.

    After a few ludes he may be pretty mellow and fun person to be around, however cat’s got his tail now.

    He is in the inventions market, that’s one way to generate quite abit of cash to get some really nice needed test equipment and to promote something he believed would work some day, just an invention he brought out to the intranet and further then the world possibly.

    When he put the match down in the grass it was so dry flames shot up immediately and he simply was not ready to answer clearly all the questions and comments. His inventor demeanor came to surface and he ended up looking like a fruitcake to many and a lier, he’s not.

    I am now seeing this more clearly from a humanistic standpoint, he never said anything everyone wanted to hear so of course we are seeing things here in a multitude of viewpoints.

    For example if 5 people are setting in an octagon shaped room and in a circle 8 foot radius and the room is full of windows around, by having all people look out of one specific window without moving from their seat you would find in written descriptions or verbal that none of the five setting close to each other in the same time element and area looking out the same window would completely match. You would find everyone has a different viewpoint but all looked out the same window.

    Try that experiment and then deduce if this is a scam or not. Scam’s are in the minds of scammers and that’s why a thief is always worried about someone stealing his stolen stuff.

    If I read one more word about a scam on this site I will reply.

    Rossi is a person that simply is trying to do something good and make bank off of it, sounds like free enterprise to me but he has made statements that could be questioned as to his thought on the matters, he is like just saying what he thinks he has to to protect his secret.

    I am anticipating the day we all find out what was so secret about the fuel mix.

    • JNewman

      February 27, 2012 at 3:23 pm

      “If I read one more word about a scam on this site I will reply.”

      That certainly should provide sufficient disincentive to anyone who dares to disagree with you.

      • RonB

        February 27, 2012 at 4:24 pm

        lol- in best Seinfield voice “NEWMAN”

        I love your sense of humor

      • Dale G. Basgall

        February 27, 2012 at 7:12 pm

        Yes I simply have not replied to any words like scam or labels from anyone and I will further debate all scam theorists.

    • Al Potenza

      February 27, 2012 at 4:06 pm

      Dale, do you think Rossi really sold a megawatt “plant”? Do you believe he has started construction on a robotic plant in the US which is designed to make a million ecats per year?

      • Dale G. Basgall

        February 27, 2012 at 7:15 pm

        Al, noI do not feel Rossi sold a megawatt plant and no I do not feel Rossi has set up a robotic plant, that is obviously ego claims.

        It simply does not make this a scam, a lie and a scam could be defined seperately.

        • Al Potenza

          February 27, 2012 at 7:36 pm

          If Rossi lied about the megawatt plant, and if he is lying about the factory, what that he says should we believe?

          Vortex banned Mary Yugo and several other severe critics. Yet, several of their more conservative members themselves questioned whether any of Rossi’s demonstrations had been conclusive evidence for LENR. The posts discussed incomplete vaporization of steam and possibly bad thermocouple placement as sources of errors. Rossi also did not allow a full inspection of the larger ecat and could have been hiding some sort of power source there. The demos were also criticized for being too brief to prove a nuclear process.

          The Vortex members for the most part believe Rossi but agree that the scientists and reporters who viewed the tests could have been fooled. They want more and better tests but Rossi won’t agree.

          So if you believe Rossi is not a scam, what are you basing it on? That there are no complaints? That has been sort of explained away too.

          • Methusela

            February 27, 2012 at 7:43 pm

            @Al – Vortex did not ban for their criticism. There are many posters who are critical. It was the sheer volume of repetitive content; plus the inability to heed repeated warnings.

        • John Milstone

          February 27, 2012 at 7:41 pm

          If Rossi was telling these stories to potential investors, it certainly is fraud. People go to jail for less.

          But, the early investors are the last ones to give up the fantasy, and face the unpleasant fact that they’ve been had.

        • X-prize

          February 27, 2012 at 7:48 pm

          Hi Dale,
          Just two questions.

          1) Why, do you think, Rossi would lie about everything if it is not a scam and it is all real?

          2) How do you decide what statements Rossi makes are true or false?

          Remember it is well documented that Rossi is taking peoples money under false pretenses.

          *************************

          • X-prize

            February 28, 2012 at 12:22 pm

            Since you don’t want to answer I will answer for you.

            1) Why, do you think, Rossi would lie about everything if it is not a scam and it is all real?

            A. When you look at the overall picture of what Rossi has said and done from 2008 till 2012, you can come to only one of two conclusions:
            a) He has a working LENR system, and is trying to manufacture and sell them.
            b) He is involved in instigating a very large hoax and yes a scam.

            The problem is that if you take the position that Rossi and his e-cat is real then everything he has said and done does not make any sense. This is born out by looking in detail at many of the case histories of product development both of conventional devices and devices that are truly revolutionary and seem to violate the laws of science as understood at that time. Rossi’s statements and actions have been ripe with falsehoods, contradictions, and misdirections from day one.

            b) But if you take the simple position that this is and always has been a hoax and scam, then everything fits into place very nicely.

            2) How do you decide what statements Rossi makes are true or false?
            A. If you try to answer this based on the assumption that Rossi and his e-cat are real you are faced with having to provide more and more totally ridiculous answers.

            This is because when you decide one way or another whether one of his statements is true or false, Rossi will always in the future make a statement that contradicts one or many statements he has made in the past.

            So now you are confronted with having to use all of his 1000s of false and true statements to try to determine if what he now says is true or false. Hope you are up to the task.

            But if you take the simple position that Rossi’s project is a scam and fraud then it is much easier, all you have to do is ask yourself one question, is the statement Rossi makes verifiable?

            If it is verifiable, check it out then make your decision, based on your investigation. If the statement is a “Rossi said” type of statement and is not verifiable then just assume it is false.

            That is what I do.

            Remember it is well documented that Rossi is taking peoples money under false pretenses.

            *************************
            *************************

        • dsm

          February 27, 2012 at 8:44 pm

          Dale

          Rossi *has* taken money form people for the agencies in various countries. Fact !. He says so plus we know he has.

          BUT, he hasn’t shown a commercial ready eCat.

          He never showed one to DefkalionGT (who built a business based on Rossi supplying them).

          Rossi has mishandled the whole LENR situation so badly. But, taking money with no evidence of a commercial LENR is problematic no matter how you look at it.

          D

      • un passante

        February 27, 2012 at 8:41 pm

        just the fact you use “think” and “believe” is a proof you have no evidence just opinion.

        your opinion is that the customer for the 1MW does not exist. your opinion is that rossi is not going to build a plant in the USA.

        after you state your opinion you tend to look at them like they were certainties but they’re still opinions. guesses.

    • Mahron - A4 B2

      February 27, 2012 at 4:34 pm

      So you believe it’s fraud to.

      • Dale G. Basgall

        February 27, 2012 at 7:18 pm

        Mahron; no I do not believe in fraud, I design products that are to last 20 years the life of the patent.

        What do you consider the fraud and compared to any other claims made by CEO’s trying to sell product?

        • Mahron - A4 B2

          February 27, 2012 at 8:01 pm

          I was just talking crap, saying the exact opposite of what you posted. Sometimes I just can not resit.

          But to answer your question, the difference would be if he is fully aware the product does not work but still continues trying to sell it.

  12. John Milstone

    February 27, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    This looks more like a typical investor’s scam. In that type of fraud, there is no intention of ever actually selling a device. The whole purpose is to get investor’s money while stalling about actually delivering a device that actually works (as opposed to a device that seems to work in carefully rigged demos).

    Carl Tilley and Madison Priest are good examples.

    • Methusela

      February 27, 2012 at 3:45 pm

      How can you complain when people compare you to maryyugo?

      You spend most of your posts comparing Rossi to great scammers of the past.

      It’s inevitable that people will compare you to great repetitive posters of the past.

      Anyway, don’t you have mortar to watch set, or paint to watch dry? 😉

      • John Milstone

        February 27, 2012 at 7:46 pm

        I don’t care if people compare me to “Mary Yugo”.

        I find it sad and pathetic that they insist that there is only one person out there criticizing their position. That’s a very childish way of trying to deal with all the contradictions and lies they have to believe in order to give Rossi any credibility at all.

        • Peter Roe

          February 28, 2012 at 8:34 am

          It is hard enough to believe that there is one person out there as demented as you obviously are. To imagine that there could be more than one borders on impossibility.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      February 27, 2012 at 3:45 pm

      With that definition, at least 90% of governmental R&D money goes to scammers in Finland. Not sure if they ask for the demos, though:-)

      • CuriousChris

        February 27, 2012 at 10:37 pm

        Research and development IS a big sink of money in many countries.

        The difference is it’s known that some of these are long shots. The researches must continuously prove that the funds should keep rolling in.

        Not wanting to lose funding pretty well guarantees some of the findings will be dubious at best.

        To call the researchers scammers is a long bow to draw. but not impossible.

        Someone must be funding Steven Hawkings and most of his theories are unprovable.

    • Quax

      February 27, 2012 at 4:22 pm

      Actually this seems to have happened within the LENR realm before. In 2004 the Israeli Energetics Technologies company was reported to work on a LENR device.

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54964-2004Nov16.html

      If you go to there website now there is no mentioning of this. Instead they moved on to the next fringe science project milking the old “gravity beam experiment” reported by E. Podkletnov.

      http://energeticstech.com/overview.htm

      At least they are very up front about seeking investment.

      • Stephen T.

        February 27, 2012 at 8:28 pm

        Quax, don’t get too far out on the opposite limb here. I see you. My limb is crackling, but Podletnekov(sp) is the anti-gravity work, right? And the Znidarsic theories suggest the connection to LENR. The Israeli group has published as Dardik, et al. Looks like 34 COP to me. Rob Duncan was involved in bringing them to U of Missouri(??) that recently received the $5.5 million from Sidney Kimmel. Dardik et al., work is included in the seven part you tube series referenced yesterday narrated by Edmund Storms. Also in this same link “new series on cold fusion” is a fascinating tour of the Znidarsic theories which caused me to spend money on a book about quantum mecchanics that is giving me headaches.
        Mum said “Keep an open mind but not so open that your brains fall out.” Dad said “Don’t be so closed minded that you cut off the blood supply.” In there somewhere I hope. Pretty open lately. Just sayin’. Here’s the link. http://www.globalfreeenergy.info/2010/09/24/cold-fusion-proof/

        • Quax

          February 27, 2012 at 9:23 pm

          I regard the work at the University of Missouri legit. Don’t see at your link how they are connected to Energetics.

          The latter clearly took in investors’ money to work on LENR but now seemed to have switched focus based on their website.

          This looks rather frivolous to me.

          My opinion on Znidarsic paper I won’t have to repeat. Ironically the Podkletnov effect has very fine established explanations but is even more elusive than LENR.

          • Stephen T.

            February 27, 2012 at 9:42 pm

            Thanks for reply. Interesting as always. I think the Energetics group is Dardik, et al., now at University of Missouri having been brought there with Rob Duncan. I’m wingin’ it here but seriously, in my notes from the Storms video series from yesterday I have: “Dardik et al., Energetics Technologies, Israel, 34 Watts (earlier I said COP, in my messy penciled graph the input is 1 Watt) I know Duncan visited them in Israel and am pretty sure this is the group he brought to the University of Missouri.
            Re: the frivilous part, I don’t know, I looked at the link you provided and didn’t get that but….I miss a lot.
            Now, I know you mentioned about the Plank constant and Znidarsic and it got your dander up but what he does is show a way to calculate it instead of just need it. That’s big. Or not. Just look maybe, the videos are a hoot anyway.
            This is all a real big stretch for me so be kind if I am way out in la la land here. I am studying but I don’t think I will ever quite get there.

      • Stephen T.

        February 27, 2012 at 9:28 pm

        Quax, here is a more direct link to the Znidarsic theory videos. You may find the narrator entertaining or otherwise (I’m over 60 and I could handle it so you shouldn’t have any problem with him, you’re young, you can take it!) Could Znidarsic be on to something here? Be nice now, he is probably listening.
        http://www.globalfreeenergy.info/2010/11/05/must-see-cold-fusion-videos/
        14 parts, try one.

        • Stephen T.

          February 27, 2012 at 10:02 pm

          Quax, I’m having trouble definitively connecting the dots between Energetics lab and U of MO. I just know (think I know) they were the Israeli lab that really seemed to impress Dr. Duncan when he was on tour for the 60 minutes video and it has been my impression that he brought some of that “good stuff” to U of MO. Others more knowledgeable please weigh in if interested.
          Also, don’t confuse Znidarsic with the “Stoyan” whatever stuff of the paper with all the wonderful diagrams of the elements.Don’t think you did, just checking. I remember you mentioned about renaming the constant so I think we are communicating.

    • kwhilborn

      February 27, 2012 at 4:47 pm

      Wrong. Most investor scams and con artists use the investors money and not their own. Dr Rossi has owned several companies large enough to sponsor formula 3 racing and have dealings with President Carter in the White House. His education/business background and working patents he holds would allow him to command a minimum 6 figure salary. Yet he has invested 5 years of his ife and over a million dollars of his own money into this project.

      Let me ask you this. Why would Rossi scam people when he was already a millionaire?

      Would he really risk jail so he can have 100 million?

      The guy had enough money to live a life in a hammock with pretty girls and margaritas in his hand already.

      • Al Potenza

        February 27, 2012 at 4:53 pm

        That’s interesting. Can you point to a successful company Rossi ran before starting the ecat business and can you find profit and loss statements or gross income figures? I tried to find that sort of information and came up empty. I couldn’t find anything public at all about Rossi past finances.

      • Thicket

        February 27, 2012 at 5:31 pm

        Kwhilborn

        You ask “Why would Rossi scam people when he was already a millionaire?”

        I’m not sure if Rossi is a millionaire, but even if he was, there is an obvious answer. Greed.

        As an aside, a million dollars isn’t that much money nowadays. It’s certainly not enough to live a lavish lifestyle.

        Would he really risk jail so he can have 100 million?

        Absolutely yes. He’s done it before and ended up in jail. Also, scammers don’t think they will get caught.

      • John Milstone

        February 27, 2012 at 6:15 pm

        As Dick Smith pointed out, the Firepower scam was, for awhile, one of Australia’s largest sponsers.

        So, that isn’t a good method to determine whether a company is legitimate or not.

      • dsm

        February 27, 2012 at 8:51 pm

        I would remind us of Paul Moller – a millionaire who made his 1st fortune with one product then said he had a flying car (that did once fly tethered & with no one on board).

        In aerospace we considered it was unworkable because it needed an engine at each corner & one failure at a corner flipped the vehicle into an inverted position.

        But Moller had the Army visiting etc etc etc
        Rather than go through this saga here again just google “Moller Skycar Wiki” – read about what happened. Moller himself is now in China setting it all up there.

        Doug M

    • Peter Roe

      February 27, 2012 at 5:09 pm

      If you ever get bored with saying exactly the same thing, why don’t you try a little game: make three consecutive posts which do not include the words ‘liar, ‘fraud’ or ‘scam’ but which *do* include the word ‘Rossi’.

      Better yet, just piss off.

      • Peter Roe

        February 27, 2012 at 5:10 pm

        Reply to mary milstone, not others commenting above.

  13. Pachu

    February 27, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    Siemens has a recorded behavior of bribes:
    (only in spanish, sorry)
    http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esc%C3%A1ndalo_de_los_sobornos_de_Siemens_AG_en_Argentina

    My thougth is this company has no problem doing illegal actions for his benefit.

    • Pachu

      February 27, 2012 at 3:46 pm

      From that text i can translate:

      According to the SEC, Siemens admitted paying bribes to foreign officials in connection with at least 290 projects or individual sales in Venezuela, China, Israel, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Argentina, Vietnam, Russia and Mexico.12
      The Siemens subsidiary in Venezuela said that from November 2001 to May 2007 paid bribes worth “at least” 18.78 million dollars to Venezuelan officials, to be favored in the award of projects to build a commuter rail Valencia and another in Maracaibo.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        February 27, 2012 at 3:51 pm

        It’s called ‘think global, act local’ 🙂

        • Jami

          February 27, 2012 at 4:07 pm

          Everybody doing business in those parts of the world knows that it doesn’t work any other way. Siemens just got caught – and they’re not exactly the only ones. Google for “siemens scandal” and find tons of bribe scandals from all around the world (including Italy and Greece, btw.).

          Still – Siemens are one of the leading engineering companies, making just about everything from entire chemical factories down to vacuum cleaners.

  14. Al Potenza

    February 27, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    That is an amazing interview. As far as I can tell, not one of Rossi’s answers can be checked.

    • AB

      February 27, 2012 at 4:37 pm

      Actually Rossi gives us names of two corporations that can be asked to confirm or deny his own statements. The question is if UL and Siemens will answer.

      • Al Potenza

        February 27, 2012 at 4:55 pm

        You’re right. I wouldn’t expect UL to reveal anything unless Rossi allows it. Will he? As for Siemens, I suggested that Frank contact them as a followup to the interview.

        But other than those, it’s pretty much “Rossi says” and nobody involved seems to want to talk about it or have their name known.

  15. Ben

    February 27, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    Race for cold fusion: NASA, MIT, DARPA and CERN peer through the keyhole

    Wired UK

    • Ben

      February 27, 2012 at 4:27 pm

      I think I coded the hyperlink wrong, try this.

      http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-02/27/rossi-roundup

      • Peter Roe

        February 27, 2012 at 5:19 pm

        Good summary of where we are, although now a little out of date.

        P.S. Anyone been over to the Defkalion blog lately? I have to admit I can no longer be bothered trawling through the crappy forum structure to find the latest posts, at least not until there is at least a wisp of smoke on the horizon.

        • C M Edwards 9%

          February 27, 2012 at 5:46 pm

          The general consensus at the DGT forum appears to be that Defkalion won’t post anything until after the holiday weekend, and that this is very unsporting of them.

          • Peter Roe

            February 27, 2012 at 7:47 pm

            Thanks.

          • CuriousChris

            February 27, 2012 at 10:43 pm

            Defkalion have failed to keep promises. Its not unsporting its ‘losing faith’

            Defkalion promised to provide details before the tests ran. Therefore should have done so last Thursday or Friday.

      • Methusela

        February 27, 2012 at 5:40 pm

        What a surprise, maryyugo is spamming the comment section.

        • Al Potenza

          February 27, 2012 at 5:43 pm

          I saw two posts by MY, the second one responding to something Ben wrote. That constitutes spam?

          • Methusela

            February 27, 2012 at 5:49 pm

            Yes. The same message repeated all over the place. I’m sick of reading it.

          • Ben

            February 27, 2012 at 6:02 pm

            So far there are 4 posts on the article, 2 by “maryyugo.” While still early, that would be consistent with the usually ratio of this character of out-posting “believers” 2:1. It is a well-established pattern, although Milstone and JNewman seem to be out to prove they can outdo MY in terms of volume.

            If you count Krivit’s post, that would be 3:1 in favor of the propagandists as things stand now. By all means, believers and reasonable skeptics feel free to chime in. This is already an uphill climb ahead and I don’t imagine it will get an less steep.

            Times ‘a wastin’…chop, chop.

          • JNewman

            February 27, 2012 at 6:47 pm

            Ben, just out of curiosity, which of my posts today do you find objectionable or repetitious or unfair? Or does it not matter since I am on your list of undesirables?

          • Al Potenza

            February 27, 2012 at 7:02 pm

            “Yes. The same message repeated all over the place. I’m sick of reading it.”

            True but the whole article is a sort of rehash. And it’s equally sickening, if you want to use that word, that people keep quoting Rossi over and over again without a shred of proof that anything he said since October 28 is in any way truthful.

            For example, I am glad Frank interviewed Rossi and wrote it up but I wish he’d asked some harder questions and had followed up with the companies involved.

            Some additional questions might have used the word “when”. When will we be able to interview a customer? When will we be able to see evidence that a factory is being built? When will we see the ecats that are out being tested by heating offices and homes? Stuff like that. When Rossi is interviewed, he gets too many softballs and too few hard ones, IMO.

          • Methusela

            February 27, 2012 at 7:27 pm

            @Al – I agree. Rossi does seem to answer “yes” to a lot of questions without thinking.

            One (!) that sticks out for me is the simple inconsistency over his plan for software updates. Go to http://www.rossilivecat.com/all.html and search for “software”.

            We need to get a webcam and install it in a room containing John Milstone and Andrea Rossi.

            Perhaps the constant repetition would wear him down, like Chinese water torture?

    • Mahron - A4 B2

      February 27, 2012 at 4:31 pm

      That’s going to bring a fresh batch of debaters. Brace for impact.

      • JNewman

        February 27, 2012 at 4:38 pm

        What’s to debate? Seems like a reasonable summary of the current situation. If there was something in there that we all didn’t already know, I must have missed it.

        • Mahron - A4 B2

          February 27, 2012 at 4:43 pm

          the people discovering the subject on that site will look for more. I’m sure some will end up here, thus the new debaters. Just like we ended up here.

          • Peter Roe

            February 27, 2012 at 5:22 pm

            I can no longer remember how I found my way here – its all too long ago now!

          • Methusela

            February 27, 2012 at 5:33 pm

            Peter, it was that aircraft remember?

          • Methusela

            February 27, 2012 at 5:34 pm

            And I’m referring to Lost here…

          • Mahron - A4 B2

            February 27, 2012 at 5:39 pm

            Yes. now it’s funny. Because were are stranded on this shitty story and I have the bad feeling it’s going to end up in tears.

          • Methusela

            February 27, 2012 at 5:42 pm

            Actually, marryugo is the smoke monster. If we move from the safety of this article, we’ll get attacked…

      • Ben

        February 27, 2012 at 5:12 pm

        Yeah, guess who one of the first to comment on the story was…you get 3 guesses and the first 2 don’t count.

        • Mahron - A4 B2

          February 27, 2012 at 5:22 pm

          heheh. You should have posted “I’m first maryyugo”. That would have pissed him off.

        • Methusela

          February 27, 2012 at 5:47 pm

          Even krivit has made an appearence!

  16. RonB

    February 27, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    Last night I stumbled onto the EEStor story.
    It’s old news but the threads of debate still linger. It sounds so much like this whole saga it’s scary.

    • Jami

      February 27, 2012 at 4:44 pm

      The difference is that eestor is at least theoretically possible without stretching the boundaries of known physics. Another difference: Dick Weir was well known in the industry as a physicist working on related (and highly advanced) stuff at IBM – so you could well believe he had something – and maybe he did. I don’t think he started out delibertely scamming but simply got caught in too much optimism and the expectation spiral resulting from it with investors, announcements, tests etc.

      • Quax

        February 27, 2012 at 5:09 pm

        It’s still very similar though, only that instead of a theoretical foundation LENR has now amassed enough solid experimental data to be taken seriously.

    • Thicket

      February 27, 2012 at 5:39 pm

      RonB

      Agreed. There are all sorts of schemes and scams out there that are similar to Rossi’s eCat and Defkalion’s offshoot. Believers usually agree that all the others are phony, except the one that they personally believe in.

      EEStor is similar to eCat, except that the EESU can conceivably be the failed product of delusion. The eCat has gone far beyond the possibility of Rossi being deluded.

  17. Jami

    February 27, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    But capacitors have been on the market forever and a day. Kids learn at school how they work. Everbody uses them all the time. There is little mystery about them. People doubt Weir will ever achieve the required purities in order to reach the energy densities promised (or the densities as such) – but nobody doubts eestor would work on a more unspectacular performance level. AFAIK there is still no consistent theory for LENR that would explain how Rossi’s device works (or is supposed to work) and his own theories as put forward on his blog seem dubious at best – and not realted to his experimental results at all.
    If Rossi is scamming (and I think he is) it was a clever move of him to chose LENR as a playing field due to the uncertainties around it. Inventing just another perpetual motion machine would crash and burn as soon as he reached out beyond the PESN-like nutcase circles. With LENR there is just enough “maybe” for his secret sauce to pass a critical mass of potential victims and a scientific community desperate enough to accept an amateur in their midst as the possible bringer of light – even if he has a history of fraud and jailtime under his belt rather than a bunch of peer reviewed articles and a PhD.

    • Al Potenza

      February 27, 2012 at 6:57 pm

      It’s a bit deeper than that! Consider his association with Focardi which Focardi did a video about. Consider the associations with Stremmenos and Levi.

      It’s very difficult to know what’s happening there. Stremmenos’s statements are flowery and ornate and very hard to read. Focardi is very old and does not claim to know the secret sauce Rossi uses. Levi is a puzzlement and he has said nothing new after his somewhat disastrous (to him) interview with Krivit.

      But IMHO, there’s a lot more to it that a simple decision to use LENR to defraud people.

  18. Daniel de França MTd2

    February 27, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    I post messages with links. What is happening?

    • Methusela

      February 27, 2012 at 6:08 pm

      They have to wait for the moderator to approve them, if more than 2 or 3, I think.

      You can split into shorter comments, or wait for admin to accept them.

      But if you do that, you will get duplicate comments.

  19. Loop

    February 27, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    I cant believe what nerves Defkalion still has, they were ignoring all of our questions on the forum even the Monday almost passed.

    As I said on their forum if I don’t see the video which would show actually the tester beside the hyperion in the actual test, any document and data were futile.

    • Mahron - A4 B2

      February 27, 2012 at 6:24 pm

      They have already packed up and are heading for the cayman island. It’ over.

      • Jami

        February 27, 2012 at 6:42 pm

        I don’t think so. Maybe they need some more time to cook up a story. I’d bet that a week from now we’re not discussing the great Defkalion swindle yet but whether or not their deliberately dribbling feed of test results and semi-anonymous testers are believable.

    • Methusela

      February 27, 2012 at 6:25 pm

      It’s a Greek public holiday today.

      This makes the Friday beforehand a very odd time to start a 48 hour x 2 set of tests.

      http://www.britsincrete.net/faq/greek-public-holidays/388-greece-public-holidays-2012

      • Stephen T.

        February 27, 2012 at 8:43 pm

        Does give one pause for thought. Quiet time in the lab? Not disruptive to day by day operations? Time to build thermal isolation structures? Testing protocols? Evaluating preliminary data and procedures? Who knows? Sure would like to be a fly on the wall.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      February 27, 2012 at 6:25 pm

      If it’s indeed the Greek government as was indicated by Sterling Allan, I’m not very surprised if they require a strong NDA for the duration of the testing and perhaps longer. Last week Finland’s Minister of Finance signed a contract with her Greek colleague about warranty arrangements against which we loan them money. The Greek government didn’t allow pictures at the signing and requested the contents secret. After discussions they agreed to allow a glance to our MPs.

      • Jami

        February 27, 2012 at 6:34 pm

        “If it’s indeed the Greek government…”

        Can’t be. They said it would be somebody trustworthy… 😉

        • charles sistovaris

          February 27, 2012 at 8:44 pm

          touché

        • dsm

          February 27, 2012 at 9:03 pm

          LOL 🙂

          Good to see humor rules 🙂

          D

  20. Daniel de França MTd2

    February 27, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    That Israeli company works with Irving Dardik:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Dardik

    which now devlops cold fusion at

    “Energetics Technologies is currently set up at the Business Incubator of the University of Missouri”, not in Israel anymore.

    This company was also was the focus of CBS “60 minutes”

    http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2009/60MinutesTurnsUptheHeat.shtml

    which convinced Duncan, “CBS asked Robert Duncan, vice chancellor for research at the University of Missouri and an expert in low-temperature physics, to look into the LENR research.” that cold fusion is real.

    Now, Kimmel, a billionair richer than Dick Smith (HAHA)will donate 5million to Missouri University, for research on cold fusion.

    http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2012/feb/10/billionaire-helps-fund-mu-energy-research/

    This paper doesn’t say about a link between Energetics and that new institute. But it is likely.

    GEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ. I guess who was “scammed” was a billionaire, not naive old mom and pops! HAHA @ Dick Smith 🙂

  21. Rends

    February 27, 2012 at 6:24 pm

  22. John Milstone

    February 27, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    I love how this article states that Siemens AG had a demonstration of their device for Rossi (which is probably true).

    The title of the article, however, states that Siemens AG and Rossi are “working together”.

    The first does not imply the second. But that’s the level of logic with the “True Believers”.

    • Stephen T.

      February 27, 2012 at 8:56 pm

      John, I still think the demonstration could have been a skype or video presentation of some of their good stuff for high efficiency conversion of low temperatures and pressures to electrical output. I just can not imagine actual hardware of this type being demonstrated live at the “customer location”. I don’t doubt the interaction, just the hardware being physically present is a stretch for me. Don’t want people later saying “See, there he goes lying again!” I know you wouldn’t do that, John. Just sayin’.

      • un passante

        February 27, 2012 at 9:44 pm

        My impression is that Rossi could care less about avoiding contradictions or about paying attention that what he says is accurate and pertaining to what it is now rather than what he hopes/foresees at the moment (who could change the day after). sometimes he replies without even understanding well what it has been asked.

        This behaviour could be seen as evidence of a fraud but actually IMO the exact opposite is true. if it was a deliberate fraud he would be far more careful of what he writes/says.

        • Jami

          February 27, 2012 at 10:00 pm

          As long as there are enough people who turn, twist and wrestle practically everything he says into some kind of “truth”, he doesn’t have to be accurate or careful. He doesn’t even have to dream up the specifications of his machines or the location of his gigantic factory or the identities of his customers or who owns his company, where his ecats are and what they can do and whether any of that is consistent with what he said yesterday. All it takes is two lines of nonsense on his blog and – bingo – literally hundreds of otherwise intelligent and honest people jump to his aid and fill in the gaps with something that would make at least some sort of sense if he’d actually said it in the first place.

          • un passante

            February 27, 2012 at 10:55 pm

            you’re greatly exaggerating his “nonsense”. out of frustration for the lack of detailed infos, I guess. and in the process you’re turning, twisting and wrestling the few generic infos he is willing to give at this stage to match your guesstimated convictions.

            Do like I do, be patient and don’t invest anything in something you’re not 100% sure.

            be patient or think about something else if you can’t. get back when there’s some real info (the kind you want). In another message you said you don’t care about LENR so it won’t be too hard.

        • Stephen T.

          February 27, 2012 at 10:14 pm

          I agree.

        • JNewman

          February 27, 2012 at 10:30 pm

          Monsieur Passante, I am trying to get a handle on your argument. You are saying that Rossi’s quixotic behavior and endless inconsistencies are not evidence of fraud but rather the opposite? As far as I know, the opposite of fraud is veracity. So you are saying that since Rossi keeps changing his story, it must be true? That is a bit too much logical quicksand for anyone to actually stand on.

          In any case, the pertinent question in all of this is not whether Rossi is perpetrating a fraud. That is a question about human intention. The pertinent question is whether the ecat is a genuine device that does anything close to what it has been claimed to do. And that is not a question about any person at all.

          • un passante

            February 27, 2012 at 11:20 pm

            I like you’re prose (you forged what I said like a good word magician) but I am better than you (in my own native language, of course).

            I said what I said, I guess it’s clear even with my broken english. no need to add anything more.

            You might take into account that one of the reasons his “story” sometimes changes could very well depend on the fact that things change day after day, test after test, when you’re working on launching a first generation LENR device.

            I agree that the real important issue is the LENR device BTW. we will see, be patient.

          • JNewman

            February 28, 2012 at 12:44 am

            Votre anglais n’est pas si mal foutues. Je ne suis pas aussi sûr de votre logique. 😉

          • JNewman

            February 28, 2012 at 12:45 am

            But I am glad we agree that what really matter is whether the ecat works and not what is going on inside Rossi’s head.

          • un passante

            February 28, 2012 at 9:58 am

            my logic is good and creative enough to understand there could be many explanations for the apparent contradictions. we simply don’t have the necessary knowledge of what is going on behind the scene on a daily basis to say anything conclusive.

            just a quick example about the 1MW plant secret customer many of you are 100% convinced it doesn’t exist. what if the only problem is rossi likes to talk about things going well and loses interest in talking openly when he is facing problems and things don’t go well as expected? what if his ego tends to reject the possibility that things can go any different than how he pictured in his head (and what he forsees change with time)? Those are common traits of human nature you find more often than you may think. So he finds himself at a stage where the effects of his omissions are apparent but he couldn’t care less about explaining.

            IMO in his mind focused on the development of his device and quickly answering questions in a blog like it’s a diary he is never lying, at worst he is embellishing things to look good. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. things look different for the ones who pay attention to each and every single word and little detail and notice the minimal change.

            ok, I think with this message I’m done with explaining why the “scam/liar” messages are IMO far less conclusive than the pseudoskeptics think.

            p.s. Devi cambiare lingua se vuoi dialogare nella mia. 😉

          • JNewman

            February 28, 2012 at 1:10 pm

            Apparently I am too stupid to realize that un passante is not the same as en passant. Le mie scuse.

      • John Milstone

        February 27, 2012 at 10:11 pm

        Stephen T.: It’s a shame that the interviewer failed to get audio of the interview. Rossi uses all sorts of tricks to convince people of things that aren’t true.

        It’s a shame that the interviewer failed to get an audio recording of the interview. It probably would have contained “gems” of misdirection.

        • Stephen T.

          February 27, 2012 at 10:20 pm

          Perhaps, John. We have heard a lot of audio recordings from Rossi and I am always taken by the “passion”, the cultural “expression”. There is much to be appreciated. I can not allow myself to believe that it will all go in the crapper. If it does I will grieve. Truly. Be gentle friend.

          • psi

            March 1, 2012 at 3:51 am

            Stephen, I concur.

            I find it very difficult to reconcile my understanding of Mr. Rossi as he presents himself as a human being, entrepreneur, and scientist, with the interpretations of his harsher critics. He is quite charismatic and careless in some regards about what he says. But as has been pointed out, the situation is also a very fluid one; just because things change doesn’t mean Rossi is lying. It could mean that things have changed.

            It also makes sense to me that in any circumstance like this, in with the inventor is driven forward by the conviction that success is possible, but has not at any given point in time *actually* achieved that success, and therefore is at risk of falling short, he will focus in public primarily on the good news and NOT say, for example, “Well, we had a delay in delivery of the 1 MW plant because our customer had specified certain requirements and we couldn’t figure out the solutions for several weeks….of trial and error.”

            Such circumstances can, it seems to me, readily account for Rossi’s seemingly contradictory statements without recourse to a theory of fraud. That doesn’t mean there is no fraud — it does mean, I think, that we have far too little definite evidence to draw the conclusion that that is what’s happening — and not enough to be sure its not.

    • daniel maris

      February 27, 2012 at 11:45 pm

      People may get overexcited at times but on the other hand YOU are asking us to believe that these big companies Seimens, NI and UL are engaging with Rossi’s outfit despite there being overwhelming evidence that he is working a financial scam.

      Is that credible?

      • John Milstone

        February 28, 2012 at 12:27 am

        But there isn’t much evidence of “real” relationships between Rossi and these companies. Most of it is based on unsubstantiated statements by Rossi or a couple of his shills (Sterling Allan and Hank Mills).

        The NI relationship appeared to be nothing more than Rossi talking to them about buying products, but never actually doing so, and NI providing Rossi some training. I’ve been to vendor-specific training like that, and it certainly never involved the vendor getting involved with whatever project I was doing.

        UL doesn’t release information about their involvement, or lack of involvement. Someone who was less than honest could use that fact to claim a relationship that doesn’t exist. I certainly don’t accept either Sterling Allan or Hank Mills as reliable sources. They simply repeat whatever Rossi tells them, and if you trace back most of the false statements about the whole Rossi story, they originated with Allan.

        We don’t have any evidence that Siemens has anything to do with Rossi.

        We’ve seen Rossi lie about his relationship with other organizations in order to appear more credible. He did so with the Universities of Bologna and Uppsala and with NASA (that we know of).

        The preponderance of evidence is that Rossi has and does lie about his relationships with other companies in order to “borrow” credibility.

      • John Milstone

        February 28, 2012 at 1:05 am

        Madison Priest (LINK) managed to get over 10 million dollars from investors, including Intel, General Dynamics and Blockbuster Video, for a phony video codec that could supposedly send high-def videos over ordinary phone lines.

        His secret? A hidden DVD player and a custom-made power cord that contained a hidden video cable.

        He ran his con for a number of years. He gave a number of impressive demos, but in all that time, no one ever saw the device actually work except when he ran the demos.

        It happens.

        • daniel maris

          February 28, 2012 at 1:07 pm

          Did Madison Priest work with a scientist of Sergio Focardi’s background on prototypes and did that scientist vouch for the device?

          • John Milstone

            February 28, 2012 at 1:23 pm

            It’s a shame that Focardi abandoned his science credibility by refusing to publish the data he claims to have, and by refusing to allow his experiments to be independently replicated.

            Since he teamed up with Rossi and became a shill for a showman he has lost any credibility as a scientist.

          • Methusela

            February 28, 2012 at 1:28 pm

            @John, interesting statement to make.

            You’ve polled his peers then, have you?

            Presumably, he would only lose his science credibility if he lost that in the eyes of them.

          • John Milstone

            February 28, 2012 at 2:18 pm

            Brian Ahern has made it very clear that he believes Rossi is a fraud.

            Joe Zawodny has made it very clear that Rossi has not demonstrated what he claims.

            Please explain why I should believe Focardi and ignore the other, equally credible authorities who believe in LENR but don’t believe Rossi, not to mention the vast majority of researchers who discount LENR it entirely?

          • Methusela

            February 28, 2012 at 2:35 pm

            What has Rossi got to do with Focardi’s scientific credibility?

            These people have directly attacked Focardi as a scientist have they?

          • Quax

            February 28, 2012 at 10:53 pm

            I don’t consider Focardi’s reputation tarnished.

            It’s pretty harsh to insinuate this.

            Stranger things have happened but if this was a con I wouldn’t expect Focardi to be in on it.

          • John Milstone

            February 28, 2012 at 11:26 pm

            I’m not so much commenting on Focardi’s reputation, but on the fact that he is not acting as a scientist, and therefore does not deserve the “benefit of the doubt” that scientists give each other.

            That “benefit of the doubt” is based on two assumptions: that scientists share their data, and they provide enough information for others to replicate their experiments.

            Focardi is doing neither, therefore he isn’t acting as a scientist.

          • John Milstone

            February 28, 2012 at 11:38 pm

            I’m still waiting for someone to tell me why I should consider Focardi more credible or reputable than Ahern or Zawodny or any other physicist.

            I find it humorous that the “True Believers” base their belief in any particular scientist based solely on his opinion of LENR and Rossi.

            Anyone who doesn’t believe in LENR is obviously wrong, and anyone who believes in LENR but doesn’t believe in Rossi is obviously just a business competitor.

          • Quax

            February 29, 2012 at 12:57 am

            I’m still waiting for someone to tell me why I should consider Focardi more credible or reputable than Ahern or Zawodny or any other physicist.

            You are waiting for the wrong thing.

            Focardi has been closerto Rossi then anybody else. I see four possibilities:

            (a) He is in on the con.
            (b) He has been consistently bamboozled.
            (c) There is a real effect but Rossi is exaggerating that it is commercially viable.
            (d) The “wanna believe” fraction is right.

            Did I miss a scenario?

  23. Quax

    February 27, 2012 at 9:27 pm

    Since we are all just stewing in out own juices until we have some new information, here’s a little poll to take the pulse of this splintered ad hoc LENR community:

    http://tinyurl.ms/4rcf

    • C M Edwards 9%

      February 27, 2012 at 10:21 pm

      Let us know how it turns out.

      • Quax

        February 28, 2012 at 12:04 am

        Most certainly will 🙂

        Also admin can pick it up if he is so inclined.

    • Mahron - A4 B2

      February 28, 2012 at 12:38 am

      Done ! Be careful there are traps !

  24. AB

    February 27, 2012 at 10:09 pm

    Good morning Sir,

    UL can neither deny or confirm any relationship with Andrea Rossi.

    UL maintains the utmost confidentiality and any information pertaining to UL’s relationship with another company falls under that confidentiality.

    If I can be of any further assistance please let me know.

    Sincerely,

    Greg Magnus
    Customer Service Professional II

    • Ransompw

      February 27, 2012 at 10:51 pm

      Actually, that is kind of interesting. If they have No relationship with Rossi or his company, how can they have the need to abide by confidentiality?

      • John Milstone

        February 27, 2012 at 11:53 pm

        You do see the flaw in your logic, don’t you?

        • Ransompw

          February 28, 2012 at 12:26 am

          No flaw, answering that question could be against policy because not answering would reveal a UL relationship. But, not answering regarding a company not in privity with UL has nothing to do with confidentiality. So it is their answer which is interesting. They should have said no comment, it is against policy. And you really need to think legally to understand my point.

          • John Milstone

            February 28, 2012 at 1:13 am

            Their answer was semantically identical to “no comment”.

            You’re right that if they honestly answered when they didn’t have a relationship, then a “no comment” answer would be equivalent to “yes”.

            There’s also the issue of not annoying a potential future customer. If they said “never heard of the guy” and then the next day that guy showed up, they would be in the awkward position of having to correct a suddenly misleading statement. So they neither confirm nor deny.

            Finally, Rossi is very good at making a non-commital contact with legitimate organizations, and then exaggerating that relationship. It’s entirely possible that he has approached U.L., but has not taken any concrete steps to have the E-Cat tested.

          • Ransompw

            February 28, 2012 at 2:33 am

            Semantically, but not legally. I would have thought UL would have been more precise in official responses.

        • Ransompw

          February 28, 2012 at 12:40 am

          One last point, a company like UL (which should occasionaly get this question), is usually more legally precise. I find that interesting. It is almost as though they were not ready for that question.

          • Josh (Original)

            February 28, 2012 at 1:33 am

            I feel like you are misreading their statement. They aren’t saying they keep relationships confidential because all of their customers demand it, they are saying that they operate in a confidential manner. UL is essentially saying that even if the customer wanted the relationship known, they wouldn’t tell you because that’s not how they operate. Their statement seems precise to me.

          • Ransompw

            February 28, 2012 at 2:32 am

            That presuposes a customer relationship. If you are saying not all customers require their silence and Rossi/His Company has NO relationship why the silence. They certainly don’t need to protect a company that isn’t their customer.

          • Jami

            February 28, 2012 at 10:47 am

            I don’t get it. What do you think they would have phrased differently if they’d never heard about Rossi? Nothing. Make a test. Write the same mail to UL asking for their relationship with “XYZ ltd.” or any other dreamed up name. I bet you’ll get the exact same answer.

  25. RonB

    February 27, 2012 at 10:30 pm

    I came to this website because it seemed to have the most up-to-date blow-by-blow on this whole saga.
    I keep coming back because of a few people on here and their logical approach to solving this mystery. It’s like that game where “it’s Ms Purple in the Den with the lead pipe”, that and the wonderful sense of humor that a few have on here!
    Keep it up, it’s better than what’s on the networks.

    • JNewman

      February 27, 2012 at 10:33 pm

      Yep, it’s like a virtual reality show.

      • RonB

        February 27, 2012 at 11:03 pm

        Who do you think we could get to play Rossi in the movie version of this.. to bad Moe from the three stooges is gone 😮

  26. Quax

    February 28, 2012 at 12:43 am

    @Stephen T.

    Just a quick shout-out to thank you for the leg-work of trying to establish if and how Energetics is connected to the U. of Missouri.

    Also for sharing the links to the videos. Unfortunately, I am too impatient for most science videos regardless if mainstream or fringe. Can’t stand most popular science shows either, no math and way too drawn out.

    The proof (literally) is in the papers – with the added benefit that many of those you only have to read until the premise becomes clear. Much more efficient that way.

    BTW my physics taste is equally discriminant towards many mainstream theoretical efforts.

    Can’t stand string theory. Pretty much consider it meta-physics. Which is why this is my favorite physics blog:

    http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/

    (BTW just as a heads-up: This guy has iron-clad comment policies, don’t try commenting on there unless you can add something pertinent to what he blogs about – I can guarantee LENR is not something he’ll be interested in).

    • Stephen T.

      February 28, 2012 at 1:11 am

      Very interesting as always, thanks. Steve

  27. JeffG

    February 28, 2012 at 5:21 am

    I’ve been following this e-cat story for months now. My nature is to be very skeptical, but it seems that there’s something to LENR, and it’s a shame how this field has been marginalized since P&F. However, with each passing week of nothing new but big talk from Rossi, I’ve reached an internal state of indifference with respect to his grandiose claims. Wake me up when someone can demo a device that runs in self sustained mode for a few months. Sadly, my BS-meter is trending in the wrong direction. Hope I’m wrong. My spidey sense (that’s rational, right?) tells me the Greeks and Italians won’t be our energy saviors. But thanks for all the cool stuff from antiquity and renaissance.

  28. duecat

    February 28, 2012 at 7:19 am

    JeffG_ I read the background on LENR and watched the E-cast vidios and digested the reviews by those few scientists involved, and concluded that the Rossi story is more than likely..real. I buy into the theory that any person with an invention that would disrupt the world energy scheme would need to keep the “proof” of any such discovery in question until a product could be put into the market. I have read every post on this (what has become the J Milstone and JNewton Rossi bash board), and have seen nothing to dissuade me for my original conclusion. To each his/her own. I fear more an untimely death than proof that the ecat or ecat clone are frauds.

  29. Haldor

    February 28, 2012 at 7:32 am

    My conclusions so far:
    1. Investors can’t read and they absolutely don’t do their due diligence.
    2. Rossi is a magician.
    3. All Scientists can be fooled easily.
    4. Nobody listens and everybody talks.

  30. Quax

    February 28, 2012 at 7:37 am

    Most concise. About sums it up 🙂

  31. buffalo

    February 28, 2012 at 8:11 am

    nah.i doubt this ecat thing will ‘just fade away’.its caused so much controversy that it wil either b totally debunked and disproven and or it wil b hoisted on2 the commercial platform and hailed a breakthru.one extreme or the other

  32. Loop

    February 28, 2012 at 9:01 am

    Whats excuse now today for Defkalion its 10am non-holiday normal working day.

    • Jami

      February 28, 2012 at 10:09 am

      They’ll respond some time today or tomorrow with something like “sorry for being so quiet but is was so very exciting. our secret testers were very impressed. everything looks good. hold your horses for more good news to come… soon” or something like that.

    • Methusela

      February 28, 2012 at 11:00 am

      Maybe they’ve given up testing for Lent?

      • Peter Roe

        February 28, 2012 at 12:50 pm

        A wisp of white smoke has been sited!

        • Peter Roe

          February 28, 2012 at 12:51 pm

          ‘sighted’ obviously.

  33. Jami

    February 28, 2012 at 10:07 am

    “All Scientists can be fooled easily.”

    This argument is frequently coming up. And I don’t think its any good either way. What would it take to fool, say, Kullander beyond what it takes to fool every Tom, Dick and Harry watching Rossi on youtube? Nothing at all. Being a physicist doesn’t mean you have x-ray eyes and can see what others can’t. It doesn’t mean you can measure steam quality by sniffing the air or detect false data simply by glancing at a screen. Scientists are only human. Some are more human than others. People tend to forget that whenever a scientist confirms (or seems to confirm) what they believe to be true anyway – but it rapidly springs back to mind as soon as a scientist holds an opposing view. Sorry – but there’s no salvation from that end. We’ll all have to use our own brains for a while.

    • Ransompw

      February 28, 2012 at 1:01 pm

      So how were the results of the second Lewan test faked?

      • Jami

        February 28, 2012 at 1:24 pm

        You already asked that and I answered. No wonder you believers complain on and on about repetition 😉 you provoke it.

        Anyway: My guess is that the “missing water” was still in the ecat after Lewan’s second test. For whatever reason he didn’t/couldn’t/wasn’t allowed/whatever to weigh it. He did so at other tests – but miraculously those were only the tests where the water itself went down the drain.

        • Ransompw

          February 28, 2012 at 1:50 pm

          In the Ecat, did you see it, there was video done? Lewan did measure the water input and the water output. There was no reservoir. Is that the best you can do? No wonder you are 100% convinced since you don’t pay attention to any of the details. I would call your perspective FAITH, not analysis.

          • Jami

            February 28, 2012 at 3:41 pm

            Don’t know which video you mean. If its this one:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVEBCN6D13w

            then there’s plenty of volume for whatever water was missing (unless you believe that the insulation is just that). And how can you say “Lewan did measure the water output”? He did no such thing. He weighed an open bucket after bubbling what was supposed to be steam into it for more than three hours. (Steam that only seemed to appear once he went to check it – I think Rossi was a little slow with cranking up the power when Lewan went to the bucket – but at least that prevented Mats from burning himself when holding the hose for a good 20 seconds with his bare hands).

  34. Jami

    February 28, 2012 at 10:29 am

    @un passante: “you’re greatly exaggerating his “nonsense”. out of frustration for the lack of detailed infos, I guess.
    ….
    In another message you said you don’t care about LENR so it won’t be too hard.”

    Your guess is wrong. I made up my mind about Rossi and am convinced 100% that his demos were faked. The chance that his demos were faked but his technology is real is something I believe being too unlikely to consider. So my interest has shifted from “when do we learn anything new about whether it works or not” to “when does he finally crash”. Apart from that, you’re right of course. Thinking about something else really deos help 😉

    I tried to explain the “don’t care about LENR” quote in a previous thread to you. Guess you missed it – or didn’t care.

    • Methusela

      February 28, 2012 at 10:57 am

      That doesn’t make any sense.

      The proof as to whether the e-cat works is currently as ephemeral as the proof of the existence of God.

      You cannot be 100% sure of something that you can never falsify.

      Even Richard Dawkins isn’t 100% sure that God does not exist.

      Philosophically, I suppose that you can never be 100% sure of something either.

      It’s all ever changing shades of something in-between.

      I suppose though, if someone says they are 100% sure, then we can be 100% sure that they are wrong…

      • Methusela

        February 28, 2012 at 10:59 am

        For “Philosophically, I suppose that you can never be 100% sure of something either.” read “Philosophically, I suppose that you can never be 0% sure of something either.”

    • un passante

      February 28, 2012 at 11:34 am

      you’re a man of certainties. many men saw their certainties vanish before. if it will be so you’re lucky that the surprise will be a pleasant one.

      I don’t see why you are wasting your time here though, I wouldn’t. I guess there’s some kind of personal entertainment involved both in proclaiming your certainties and opposing those who didn’t see the Light and don’t share your certainties. or are you on a mission of evangelization?

      p.s. I missed the explanation on the “don’t care about LENR”, I’ll look for it.

      • Jami

        February 28, 2012 at 12:03 pm

        “I wouldn’t”

        You mean you’re not here for the entertainment? What else is there? What does posting on a blog or discussion in general really contribute to anything beyond that? I mean its not like we’ll ever come to a conclusion that would matter in the greater scale of things. We’re not a parliament preparing for an important election or anything.

        • un passante

          February 28, 2012 at 2:25 pm

          I mean I wouldn’t spend my time looking for infos and/or posting here more than, say, a couple of days if I was 100% certain there was nothing true behind Rossi’s claims.
          Because the enterainment would rapidly end and there are many interesting things in the world to read and discuss.
          of course I am aware it’s subjective. that is what I would likely do.

          • Jami

            February 28, 2012 at 3:58 pm

            Give me another day or two for the fun to wear off. I started only last wednesday or so.

  35. Jami

    February 28, 2012 at 11:20 am

    I’m neither a philosopher nor a priest – and as an engineer I tend to base my judgement on more mundane criteria like “is is posslibe to build an e-cat with the functionality outlined by Rossi and measure what he said he measured at any given point within the machine” – and the answer to that is “no”, totally independet from the question of whether he uses LENR, hidden wires or an invisble propane gas tank as his primary energy source. That’s just my opinion, of course. I’m sure you’ll find philosophers, priest and maybe even engineers who disagree – but I won’t believe them unless they can build me an e-cat (or at least simulate one or hint at how it could be done) that somehow does what Rossi says his machines do – no matter how they power it.

  36. Loop

    February 28, 2012 at 11:30 am

    Test status (28-2-2012)
    Author Message
    Defkalion GT

    Site Admin

    Tests with the presence of high level Government officials have been concluded. Opinions and results were very positive.

    Announcements will be made upon mutual agreements, at a time yet to be defined.

    Tests continue with international Authorities in the coming weeks.

    DGT

    • Mahron - A4 B2

      February 28, 2012 at 11:33 am

      Sent from panama.

      • AB

        February 28, 2012 at 11:57 am

        Sent from panama.

        Thi made me chuckle 🙂

    • Pachu

      February 28, 2012 at 11:50 am

      So Sterling Allan was rigth.

      Credit for him.

      • John Milstone

        February 28, 2012 at 12:37 pm

        Based on what?!? Defkalion’s say-so?

        This is exactly what the critics have predicted. No published test protocols. No identified testers.

        Just a vague blog posting from Defkalion.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      February 28, 2012 at 12:10 pm

      The timing of the announcement (Tuesday 1:18 PM) seems consistent with them having started on Friday morning, because some hours (how many, I don’t know) extra must have been reserved for cooling before the swap operation on Sunday.

    • CM Edwards 9%

      February 28, 2012 at 12:15 pm

      Hooray!

      I anticipate going to 10% shortly. At least… in the coming weeks.

  37. Dick Smith

    February 28, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    Special urgent message from Defkalion

    Please keep sending money until we can get a proper announcement out.

    Sorry , could be months.

    • Anders F

      February 28, 2012 at 12:16 pm

      You don’t have to act like a dick just because you are named Dick.

      Defkalion can’t control when the independant parties release the results and any result that Defkalion release will be questioned. We will just have to wait and see, is that so hard to understand?

  38. Dick Smith

    February 28, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    And isn’t it amazing ! The high level government officials arn’t named.
    Now I wonder why?
    Of course, they are all very shy and insisted their names be kept secret.
    Does anyone else see a constant pattern here?
    Oh. Let’s give them the benefit of the doubt!

    • Mahron - A4 B2

      February 28, 2012 at 12:23 pm

      Their tricorders must be detecting massive amounts of bee-beli-beep.

    • Stephen T.

      February 28, 2012 at 12:38 pm

      At minimum a couple of days to get the report written up and analyzed before it is released is reasonable.

      • John Milstone

        February 28, 2012 at 12:47 pm

        If Defkalion really wanted to provide evidence that their gadget worked, they would insist on public testing, and they would insist on publicly identifying the testers before the tests.

        If they wanted to stall while they were getting money from investors, they would do exactly what they are doing.

    • John Milstone

      February 28, 2012 at 12:39 pm

      Give Defkalion credit. It will be hard to find 7 different “well-known” labs that all insist on maintaining their anonymity.

      • Stephen T.

        February 28, 2012 at 12:47 pm

        Complete anonymity would, of course, be a huge credibility issue. So much so that it would just about render the results useless. Therefore I predict the identity of the “group” will be announced. Individual names are not necessarily required in my book as long as there is a spokesman for the group who will answer questions. On the other hand, I see no reason why the individuals would not want to be known. I would not have a problem signing my name to such a historic test, would you? If good, good, if inconclusive, so be it, if junk, say so.

  39. Dick Smith

    February 28, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    Anders. I get it. It’s out of the control of Defkalion. , they want to release the results and names but it’s those sneaky government officials who are insisting on secrecy!

    • Methusela

      February 28, 2012 at 12:41 pm

      It’s my favourite Australian!

      It used to be Rolf Harris, but now it’s you 🙂

      I think you need a bit more of a musical accompaniment though, if you’re going to keep singing the same song.

      Perhaps you if use a wobble-board, or maybe a didgeridoo, you’d get more press attention?

      • Methusela

        February 28, 2012 at 12:49 pm

        Kind of like:

        I’m Dick the Skeptic, deedle eedle eedle um,
        With no N.D.A, deedle eedle eedle um.
        Wherever I go through rain and snow,
        The people always let me know:
        There’s Dick the Sceptic, deedle eedle eedle um,
        With no N.D.A, deedle eedle eedle um.

      • Stephen T.

        February 28, 2012 at 12:49 pm

        Maybe he is just interested like the rest of us. Yes it is repetitive and predictable but that makes it easy to scan or ignore if we choose to. No harm really.

        • Peter Roe

          February 28, 2012 at 12:59 pm

          It IS repetitive and predictable, and oozing snide in the manner of milstone/yugo. I’m finding it increasingly difficult to believe that the real Dick Smith would have the time or inclination to post such pointless crap, and has probably handed the job over to some minion (or hired George Hody).

    • GP

      February 28, 2012 at 1:37 pm

      Sidney Kimmel donated $5,5 million for cold fusion or LENR research at the University of Missouri.

      So there is a way of helping this field (for real), without creating sideshows, or insulting, or wasting everybody’s time, or all of the above.

      Well done Mr. Kimmel

  40. MAK

    February 28, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    Mr.Smith, you have a strong case. I cannot understand why the cover-up on the names etc… As for the government officials who are they? The Greek government is not know for their honesty to begin with and there are a zillion government offices non that are up to the standards that is needed to validate a working LENR device. Heck my mom’s house is within walking distance of their main office which they have located in a upscale residential area called Glyfada.

    I really really feel that LENR is real but I need to see or hear from independent testers of one WORKING model. One!

  41. Andre Blum

    February 28, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    Latest forum comment from Defkalion:

    Tests with the presence of high level Government officials have been concluded. Opinions and results were very positive.

    Announcements will be made upon mutual agreements, at a time yet to be defined.

    Tests continue with international Authorities in the coming weeks.

    DGT

    Andre

    • Stephen T.

      February 28, 2012 at 12:51 pm

      No results to check yet? See you in a couple of days. I need to go to work.

    • daniel maris

      February 28, 2012 at 1:09 pm

      Very disappointing the way they have treated the forum contributors (I’m not one)with such contempt.

      Not very encouraging.

    • timycelyn

      February 28, 2012 at 1:16 pm

      I get the impression that whoever was operating the DGT forum from their end has been muzzled. The responses used to be quite lengthy, and recently gave a lot of commitments over the testing, some of which I gather (not gone back to check the detail, I admit) like video, are clearly not being fulfilled, but rather ignored. Also they posted at – for them – rather unsocial hours, like over the weekend. All the hallmarks of a rather enthusiastic junior or middleman at the most.

      Did they overrerach themselves, and all posts must now be authorised by someone further up the management tree? This current one has a very senior ‘Never mind what we said, or what your feelings of let down are, THIS is all we will tell you at this time..’ feeling about it.

      Anyone else have the same impression?

    • JNewman

      February 28, 2012 at 1:16 pm

      Well, the most interesting question is: who actually performed the tests? They were performed “with the presence of high level Government officials”. Presumably, those are not the ones who actually did the tests. We were told to expect independent testers providing their own equipment and so forth. The waiting game continues.

    • Thicket

      February 28, 2012 at 1:31 pm

      Well there you have it. This is more definitive proof that the Hyperion and the eCat are real. The skeptics will really be desperate now.

      The Greek government hasn’t denied their involvement, so we know the tests happened. There is no way that the government would let themselves be associated with anything that isn’t absolutely real.

      It’s perfectly understandable that results aren’t publicly available yet. Anyone with a brain knows that it takes some time to take test data, analyze it and put it in a proper report. Also, Defkalion must ensure that no trade secrets are disclosed. People need to keep an open mind. There’s no harm in waiting a few more months for details about this revolutionary energy breakthrough.

      It’s exciting that tests with international authorities will continue through the coming weeks. Big Oil and Middle East governments will try to suppress cold fusion technology to protect their greedy self-interest. It’s too late though. Prepare yourselves for the great energy revolution.

      We have real competition between Defkalion and Rossi. It doesn’t matter who wins because the world will benefit. The competition will spur on both parties.

      Expect the pathoskeptics to spread their FUD about these tests. We know that some of them are paid debunkers. Half of them are MaryYugo. They will continue to spread their boring, repetitious, negative garbage.

      Defkalion is staffed by many excellent engineers. It’s inconceivable that they would compromise their reputations and careers on a scam.

      /facepalm

      • Methusela

        February 28, 2012 at 1:41 pm

        You discovered sarcasm.

        How jolly clever of you.

      • Ransompw

        February 28, 2012 at 1:41 pm

        You spent time to post that. No one but the most fanatic believer will pay any attention to this announcement. It is as good as useless either way you want to look at it.

      • AB

        February 28, 2012 at 2:45 pm

        Well there you have it. It’s been a couple hours since the end of the testing schedule and there is no report yet. This is definite proof that Defkalion never conducted a test.

    • Peter Roe

      February 28, 2012 at 1:55 pm

      JNewman is correct – this ‘official’ release only states that “high level Government officials” were present, but does not actually state that it was these people who carried out tests. The wording could equally apply if DGT did some demos in front of a few govt. representatives. The rest is just waffle to gain time (although I wonder what they mean by ‘international Authorities’? – unless this just reflects language issues.

      I think Timycelyn has it right – someone said and promised too much, and the whole thing is now being reined in severely by more senior individuals. I’m not sure they appreciate how much this whole development will damage DGTs credibility online, but I suppose that if they do eventually announce something meaningful, the goodwill of a few blog posters is completely irrelevant. I think we can stop holding our breath for the moment though, and just sit back and watch the manic shrieking of ‘told you so’ from the kiddies in the front seats.

  42. Mr. G

    February 28, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    I’ve been lurking around here for a while now and I have decided to add my voice.

    @Dick Smith

    You called it. Defkalion has belatedly released their first veiled amateurish “report” of the independent testing.

    Do they think we are children? Surely even the most credulous can’t be satified with this.

    Pathetic.

    G

  43. Pachu

    February 28, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    A lot of people was asking in their forum if the test was going, so they just say officially test was done.

    No pre-test report was done public a DGT fault.

    Nothing really usefull until report data be released.

    One really important thing: the 3rd party tester has to put his name in the public report, DGT cant allow 3rd party private or anonymous test no matter NDA or whatever, if somebody call for test hyperion has to accept put his name on public report.

    Lets wait a bit more.

    • Mahron - A4 B2

      February 28, 2012 at 1:46 pm

      Yes, we are such a bunch of unfair, impatient assholes. I wonder why. Ho ! now I remember, its because if it is real the world as we now it will no longer exist in the following five years.

  44. Ivan Mohorovicic

    February 28, 2012 at 1:57 pm

    Do people really expect test results to come out as soon as tests ended? I think for a professional peer reviewed report able to be used officially at least 2-3 weeks would be needed.

    • John Milstone

      February 28, 2012 at 2:30 pm

      I expect Defkalion to keep their promises: to release test methodologies and the identities of the “well-known” testing organizations before testing.

      They’ve failed to do that.

  45. Guru

    February 28, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    DGT will maximally delaying ANY publication.

    Another 3-4 maybe 5 weeks for whatever publication.

    These folks have MONEY as only one God.

    They will nothing publishing until they are ready
    with production manufacture.

    Around autumn was noted this manufacturing will ready at end of March 2012. Plus some effect from Greece neverending strikes (plus some weeks delay in construction).

    For DGT own production of Hyperion is 15 times lesser important in profit then profit from selling licenses.

  46. JNewman

    February 28, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    I keep hoping we will someday have some actual information to discuss.

    Meanwhile, it is back to Defaklion’s behavior, Rossi’s behavior, skeptics’ behavior, believers’ behavior.. perhaps this is actually an abnormal psychology forum, not an ecat forum. If so, we patients have taken over the asylum.

  47. Quax

    February 28, 2012 at 9:52 pm

    Hence my obsession with surveying this crowd. One way or another we will have some data to discuss 🙂

    http://tinyurl.ms/4rcf