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Cool eCat Or Fake eCat

February 24, 2012

Cool eCat Or Fake eCat

Some time ago, I wrote a piece trying to draw some of the evidence for and against the reality of the eCat. To someone convinced that the whole thing is a fraud, it probably looked like a believer’s charter. The reality is that it was a counter to the nonsense that stood for proof of fraud at the time. In that sense, we are exactly in the same place. There is an abundance of circumstantial evidence pointing to something of substance and this is balanced by a lack of proof for fraud.

That last statement can be turned on its head. There are a number of signals in the eCat tale that could be taken as circumstantial evidence for fraud and this is balanced by a lack of proof that it’s not.

Given the stakes in play and the emotive engagement the subject engenders, it is not surprising that there is blood on the floor. Recently, the bun fight in the comments’ section has got messy. I invite everyone to read the guidelines again or for the first time. If you cannot argue with respect then you will not command it. Despite accusations of censorship, I prefer we all act like adults without my heavy hand getting in the way.

It appears to me that warring factions are often closer to each other’s pov than they realise. As the mirroring views above demonstrate, if you were to label a box ‘Unsure’ 90% of those who visit eCatNews.com could go sit in it. There are technically trained people here (including me) who are happy to wait before judging. They set some weight to the people and events supporting Rossi. When they read repeated declarations of certainty from the other side and counter it by pointing to the supporting evidence, they are labelled believers despite their declared uncertainty. There is a world of difference between defending Rossi or Defkalion and pointing out the flaw in any argument that discounts the evidence leading to their wait-and-see stance. This is infuriating.

On the other side, why-oh-why the rush to accuse?

It is a sad fact that history is on their side. It pains me to recognise many of the patterns of past fraud in the genetics of this plot. Credibility by association, fuzzy proof, escalating claims as deadlines loom, unidentified entities, NDAs, promises for charity – all wrapped in a packaged concealing hidden deals with investors. I am sorry to say that statistics are on their side.

So; if I can see this pattern, why not stand with the hard sceptics?

Some of it comes down to an outlook on life. I default to the good in people. Some might label this the ‘sucker’ gene. We all have it to a greater or lesser degree. This is one of the reasons for the scientific method. To compensate for this trait, I trust science before belief and look hard at myself in matters of importance where trust can lead to disaster.

Alarm bells are ringing in eCat Land and this is why I have always advised against investment without private proof. I believe that most so-called believers here think roughly the same. I may bet a fiver but not my life. If I had a few million to spare I might hire the right consultants, stick something in escrow and go find out what is really behind the curtain. That would be my fiver. The stakes are so high it is worth a look.

The tendency to see what we expect to see does not lie solely with optimists. Like a policeman who finds a crook in everyone they meet, so the habitual pessimist can miss the forest for the trees. There are many factors in this story that do not fit the scam theory. This post would double in size if I paid them justice so consider this outline:

Rossi risked everything only after Focardi supported his ideas.
Focardi is a world expert in NiH cf
The notion that AR put all his money and time into a multi-year delayed-reward scam is silly. He almost certainly started out on his journey with good intent.
Working with Focardi on frontier science that is beginning to shake things up, it is not a stretch to imagine an Edisonian workaholic finding the prize he was looking for.
Real or not, Rossi’s apparent success spurred others in the field anew and Focardi’s old NiH partner Piantelli is among those who now reach higher yields and better control with the promise of commercially viable devices on the near horizon. If such a coincidence was negative it would be cited as strong evidence of fraud. It is important to recognise that Rossi stirred the pot. He is not responsible for the success of others but his inspiration energised the field. Despite following Rossi’s announcement Piantelli’s results are often discounted as irrelevant.
Rossi did not conduct one or two demos but many. He was not frightened to let people with the skills to debunk close to the device. Despite flaws, some of these were pretty impressive.

It appears that Rossi convinced Stremmenos and he then found the Defkalion crew. You have two choices unless you think their interest was blind: Stremmenos accidentally or deliberately brought in scammers who did a deal with Rossi to pretend it was real or that they believed it was real after seeing the goods. If you go with the former then you have to run with it all the way and imagine a staged fight to texture the story or a real fight over some part of the scam. If staged, then we now have one big group pretending to be two. That Stremmenos found the perfect fit for such a masterly role is quite astonishing. If the split is genuine then you have to then imagine that both parties are competing against each other for the spoils of the same fraud. The knots you get tied in to stick with the notion that the eCat story fits the textbook pattern of these types of scams is quite extraordinary.

The list is longer but I will stop there. Being a true sceptic involves questioning the evidence and examining your own tendency to bias. Going back to the alarm bells above, each and every point can be explained through the story of a man who has what he says, is rightfully reluctant to trust and determined to ride this tiger to the line.

At this stage, a critical thinker will wait. Anyone who sticks with the certainty that this is a fraud is doing so on belief and that belief is born by looking only at a subset of the facts available.

Do not expect answers tomorrow. It is a shame that Defkalion’s first test group is a government body as this lends itself to reasonable excuses for secrecy (in the manner of secret 1MW customers). I hope not but be prepared. If delay follows delay, secret follows secret then the alarms will sound louder still.

For those who think this has all dragged on for too long, I guess you have never worked on the front edge of technical innovation. This is not slow by a long shot.

Be patient and give Defkalion the shot they appear ready to take.

Oh, and stop spitting in the corridors.

Posted by on February 24, 2012. Filed under Defkalion,Drama,History,Piantelli,Rossi,Tests & Demos. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

295 Responses to Cool eCat Or Fake eCat

    • Ivan Mohorovicic

      February 24, 2012 at 9:52 pm

      Mark Gibbs says:

      As for Defkalion, they wanted a level of secrecy that Dick thought unreasonable given his objective which was to establish that the Hyperion system works as claimed.

      Still waiting for details about the NDA, though.

  1. Dick Smith

    February 24, 2012 at 10:02 pm

    George. I have not done a lot of research into cold fusion but I sure have done a lot of research into scammers. I can now pick one (or two! ) a mile away.

    Remember I predicted that Defkalion would delay the proper results of any tests while more money is collected?

    First of all their will be delays in performing the tests then there will be delays in advising of all those involved. Then there will be delays in collecting the data, then delays in working out a definitive result. Then there will be a reason why the tests weren’t as effective as first thought and they are going to be repeated using a slightly different protocol. All the time many on this site will be accepting the explanations-as no one will be able to prove the explanations are not real!

    Does anyone want to have a bet with me on the month we will hear news of the first fraud charges being laid . Can’t be that long away now.

    • georgehants

      February 24, 2012 at 10:17 pm

      Dick Smith, your belief that Defkalion are a fraud as a personal opinion is fair.
      Your warning people to be very careful is fair.
      Your accusing and abusing them or anybody with out one single piece of proof is criminal.
      My personal opinion (that means nothing) of both Rossi and Defkalion, is that they both have something substantial.
      I also would warn people to be very careful in investments.
      I would not dream of trying to convince others that I am correct, it is up to them.
      My only concern as with P&F and so many other scientists is, do not prejudge, it is hurtful and cheap.
      Even if you turn out to be correct your abuse before proof can never be justified.

    • Methusela

      February 24, 2012 at 10:17 pm

      Isn’t it amazing how much publicity money can buy?

    • Mahron - A4 B2

      February 24, 2012 at 10:42 pm

      don’t, don’t, don’t stop the party.

    • X-prize

      February 25, 2012 at 1:54 am

      Another Challenge to Mr. Rossi

      I don’t have the money for a prize to win this challenge but until you perform this experiment, I am going to say, based on my analysis, that the performance you are claiming for the small e-cat is not based on any type of LENR process.

      You claim the reason the wires stay connected to the heating elements while in “self sustaining mode” is for safety reasons. Let me ask you – do you keep a propane blow torch handy in your kitchen in case of a fire on the stove? I am sure that since you think adding heat to a run-on hot process will stop it, you must think that would be a good idea.

      Your statement is also ridiculous based on Professor Sergio Focardi statements that he told you that the only way he could think of to stop a run-on was to add helium to the cell. We also have your many statements on your own blog that the e-cat is totally safe because if it overheats it will just melt down and the reaction will stop on its own.

      So here is the experiment you must perform to win this challenge.
      1) No lead will need to be used to cover the cell.
      2) The reason no lead will be used is because the cell will be placed within a box constructed of clear leaded glass windows. In case you don’t know what these are, let me tell you. These are the windows that are used in the X-ray departments of hospitals to shield the operators from the radiation. They can be purchased using different configurations and materials. I have built X-ray rooms using these windows. This clear box of leaded glass will also serve as a Faraday cage, to prevent any beamed radiation to your device from interfering with the test.
      3) No insulation will be needed. The cell will be surrounded by a clear Pyrex tube. You must know about Pyrex, right. It is used as a container to boil fluids in thousands of labs around the world every day. Water will flow between your cell and the clear Pyrex tube. The Pyrex tube will have a small riser up through the clear leaded glass box for the steam to escape.
      4) No electricity will be needed because you will initially run the experiment for a little while to determine the flow rate needed to keep the process stable. After that:
      5) Based on the flow rate required enough 5 gallon bottles of water will be purchased at the local water store to keep the experiment going for 7 days.
      6) The clear glass box with your cell in it will be placed on a large clear glass table.
      7) All of the water bottles will be hung from a high bar at the end of the table. They will all be connected together with clear hoses, one hose, connected to the Pyrex tube, will have a valve to regulate the flow of water.
      8) When the test is started you will be able to use the heating elements to start the process. As soon as the e-cat is in self-sustain mode the electric wires will be disconnected from the e-cat.
      9) Internet cameras will be set up to monitor the setting up of the test and the 7 days of the test.
      10) This whole test set up will be a room with just one door which will be locked as soon as the experiment is up and running. You and others can take turns guarding the room so you will know your IP is safe. There will be an internet camera watching the door at all times for the 7 days.

      There you go, I don’t care what the temperature is anywhere. I don’t care how much electricity you needed to get the device running. The only thing that matters to me is that there is a constant flow of steam out of the small tube at the top of the clear glass box – FOR 7 DAYS.

      In closing I would like to say to you Mr. Rossi, until you agree to perform a test like I have just described or one very similar then keep your mouth shut. Quit calling this a LENR device until you can prove it is one beyond a shadow of a doubt. You are just creating a situation that is making the whole field of LENR look bad. Maybe that was your whole intent all along. When this project of yours crashes, and it will, it will put a black eye on LENR science for 10-20 more years. Is that your true purpose for what you are doing? And the money you are collecting under the table is just icing on the cake?

  2. M. Hat

    February 24, 2012 at 10:04 pm

    Anyone know how Defkalion’s (24 February start date) tests are doing?

  3. CuriousChris

    February 24, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    @GeorgeHants Scepticism has caused 1/1000000 of the damage irrational belief in the impossible has done.

    Science always finds a way. Cold fusion is the perfect example. mainstream science debunked it. but it still continues today. not forgotten and time will eventually tell.

    But a simple search for free energy will reveal thousands of fraudulent claims, the same for drugs

    Whenever there is a need, a cruel and wicked person will step in and claim to have the answer… for a price!

    The true innovators in LENR have always published their accomplishments. DGT/Rossi have never, instead they have only ever published ‘costs’, what it will cost us to get “nearly free energy” from them.

    As long as their are people willing to believe without proof their will be scam artists. Sceptics provide a necessary balance. So at least people who are willing to listen don’t get burnt.

    There is a class of people who will always get burnt.

    By the way my uncle died and I have $500,000,000 dollars which I need to move. does anyone have a bank account I can safely use to move it offshore. I’ll let you keep 10%.

    • georgehants

      February 24, 2012 at 10:25 pm

      Hello Chris, just a simple answer tonight, tired.
      You are putting one correct argument to justify another incorrect answer just like Smith justifies his position on Defkalion by quoting the Blackmagic story.
      Each and every subject must be looked at independently.
      Lots of fraud and con-artists does not mean that there is not a nucleus of TRUTH to be uncovered, as with Cold Fusion, the delay of which could have hurt millions.

  4. CuriousChris

    February 24, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    Perhaps we can hire a greek mob to go round to DGT and demand some answers? There seems to be an abundance of them at the moment. While at the same time DGT spokepeople seem to have gone to ground.

  5. Tomas Douting

    February 24, 2012 at 10:30 pm

    All the communication that Rossi and DGT do seem to have a penchant for are only adding to the extremes of heightened expectations (as well as to the calls of fraud) among some of those who frequent the forums. Meanwhile there are other researchers out there quietly performing experiments and exploring, possibly changing directions and trying new things based on the hints escaping from the public ones.

    Is it any wonder, given the breath of reactions we see here and elsewhere on line, why the other researchers are for the most part proceeding with quiet and calm? without calling attention to themselves?

    The “miracle” of the spread of information and dis-information at the speed of light is not always a positive thing. How many of a research group’s man hours must be devoted to monitoring, managing and responding to these forums?

  6. georgehants

    February 24, 2012 at 10:31 pm

    dsm, sorry don’t remember, might look it up tomorrow, I am sure it must have been something really interesting. ha.

  7. daniel maris

    February 24, 2012 at 10:31 pm

    DGT have failed to meet stated timetable dates before I seem to recall but they then came good. We will have to see. The lack of communication tends towards this being genuine I would say. Scammers would have no problem with meeting timetable dates.

  8. Tomas Douting

    February 24, 2012 at 10:34 pm

    @Curious Chris

    And would you have them break down the doors and set fire to the place if the answers they get aren’t well understood? That seems so – productive! It would surely encourage other research groups to be more public, hoping to attract other mobs to provide continued pressure to produce the answers desired. It could even promote the establishment of departments whose task it was solely to produce false data reports to keep the assembled mobs of pitch-fork brandishing enthusiasts at bay.

    • CuriousChris

      February 27, 2012 at 7:19 am

      lol Sorry missed this post.

      The mobs (of investors) might be their soon anyway if not brandishing pitch forks at least writs.

  9. Tom

    February 24, 2012 at 10:44 pm

    Dick, if you are wrong, you will have a lot of words to eat. Slow down a bit with the animosity and accusations, no need for it. You’ve not done any research into cold fusion so you have no grounds to claim fraud on a technical/scientific standpoint. And even if Rossi and Defkalion fit your personal outline of fraudsters, they may not be. Everyone here shares your caution but you won’t be convincing me of the scam, I’ll reserve my judgement.

  10. Dick Smith

    February 24, 2012 at 10:48 pm

    George. Unfortunately there is a staggering amount of circunstantial evidence that increases every week.

    I have been asked on this site to use the $1 million for something really useful.

    I would be interested in extending the $1 m offer to any person who can come up with a practical device that has an output of at least 1KW through LENRs

    No. I would not be interested in being involved in any testing however I would accept a statement from any respected leading authority in this field. I am sure with suggestions from people on this site we could come up with a list.

    The offer would remain open for 12 months and would be genuine. I have been able to assist charities, including science based institutions in the past with donations of over $20 m including single donations of up to $4m and I consider myself fortunate to be able to do this .

    I will say this now- I believe there is almost no chance that the money will be paid out even though I will be delighted if it is.

    Look forward to some sensible discussion on this . Remember I am not prepared to spend any time being involved in testing or research. That’s because I reckon in ten years I would find that I had wasted much time without effective results

    • georgehants

      February 24, 2012 at 10:58 pm

      Dick, every part of your reply is personal opinion which you are totally entitled to but means nothing.
      It does not change my points above.
      Opinion means nothing as science must learn or things like the delay of Cold Fusion will continue to occur as they have throughout sciences history.
      Facts only count and you have no facts just circumstantial evidence against Defkalion, but there is just as much circumstantial evidence for them, only time will tell, as more factual evidence becomes available.
      What you do with your money is entirely your concern and has nothing to do with Defkalion being genuine or otherwise.

    • Methusela

      February 24, 2012 at 11:06 pm

      Why do you insist on telling people how much you’ve contributed to charity?

      It’s rude; it doesn’t excuse your offensive behaviour.

      Stop announcing things on this forum – use your official website: DickAndHisAmazingCharitableContributions.com

      • Al Potenza

        February 25, 2012 at 12:18 am

        Donating millions to charity and mentioning it in passing is hardly rude. I wish more people would do it. Doing it give you the absolute right to tell people about it if you wish.

        Too few are able and even fewer are willing to give money to good causes instead of spending it on their trivial or ostentatious pleasures.

        • Methusela

          February 25, 2012 at 7:21 am

          It is rude.

          The bad use it as evidence that they’re actually good.

          “But look how much money I’ve contributed to charity. I must be a really nice person.”

          Some people use it to buy goodwill.

          • Colin Connaughton

            February 25, 2012 at 8:07 am

            Putting words into other people’s mouths is rude, imo, both to DS and to readers.

            Informing people of ones charitable donations is not rude at all. That is BS and giving readers BS is rude imo.

          • Methusela

            February 25, 2012 at 8:21 am

            As are you.

          • un passante

            February 25, 2012 at 10:35 am

            I am not religious BTW it could be interesting to read what a quite influential person had to say about charity

            Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

            2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
            3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
            4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you

            I see he was not a wealthy VIP as Dick Smith but I think there’s wisdom in these words.

          • lawrence

            February 25, 2012 at 8:51 pm

            Un passante,

            Sounds Muslim. And indeed, this is a good description of how charity should be carried out.

          • Stephen

            March 2, 2012 at 3:36 am

            Not as rude and arrogant as you, (very) old chap!

      • Dsm

        February 25, 2012 at 7:17 am

        You prefer to say he kicks puppies LOL

        You are an entertainment. 🙂

        Keep smiling.

        Doug M

        • Methusela

          February 25, 2012 at 7:24 am

          I think he’s progressed onto kicking wallabies.

          But they’re a dangerous breed, mate, especially when feeding 😉

    • Loop

      February 24, 2012 at 11:08 pm

      Dick your idea is bad for one reason, there is no inventor who will gave his device with the secret sauce to any organization even to the most credible.

      The only time when such thing is possible is maybe if such inventor produced million or more devices because that would mean that everything is ready for distribution to customers.

      • Stephen

        March 2, 2012 at 3:37 am

        You seem to think that ALL human beings are as greedy as you. Wrong.

    • daniel maris

      February 25, 2012 at 12:06 am

      Dick Smith –

      Are you actually aware that NASA have obtained a US patent for an LENR device? I think they count as reputable don’t you? Why not give them a million dollars to speed up development of the device?

      • Al Potenza

        February 25, 2012 at 12:21 am

        Giving money away willy-nilly doesn’t make sense. Giving it to someone who can show a strong and capable demonstration of LENR, cold fusion or other means of getting power from nuclear reactions is much better.

        Unfortunately, a patent is no proof that NASA has an LENR nuclear power source that works.

      • dsm

        February 25, 2012 at 7:34 am

        Daniel

        You stated as fact …
        “NASA have obtained a US patent for an LENR device?”

        If you are aware of this device can you please quote and a link to it as I suspect that *as usual* you failed to grasp the real facts yet will chide other posters with your confused info details.

        Do it once or twice and you can be forgiven, but do it as a practice & someone like me will think “here we go again – this school boy mentality strikes again”.

        To do it properly post a link that actually backs up your claim – that usually shows you have looked into what you are claiming. But as usual you didn’t bother doing real research. Sorry but you asked for it.

        http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2012/LENRGoldRushBegins-atNASA.shtml

        “Zawodny filed his non-provisional U.S. patent application 20110255645 for a “Method for Producing Heavy Electrons.”

        http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220110255645%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20110255645&RS=DN/20110255645

        The so called ‘device’ you are confused about …
        “A method for producing heavy electrons is based on a material system that includes an electrically-conductive material is selected. The material system has a resonant frequency associated therewith for a given operational environment. A structure is formed that includes a non-electrically-conductive material and the material system. The structure incorporates the electrically-conductive material at least at a surface thereof. The geometry of the structure supports propagation of surface plasmon polaritons at a selected frequency that is approximately equal to the resonant frequency of the material system. As a result, heavy electrons are produced at the electrically-conductive material as the surface plasmon polaritons propagate along the structure. ”

        Doug M

    • Dale G. Basgall

      February 25, 2012 at 3:07 am

      Mr. Smith you made a statement; “I would be interested in extending the $1 m offer to any person who can come up with a practical device that has an output of at least 1KW through LENRs”

      How can we formalize that with you, I am prepared to make that challenge and at present it “the reactor” is scheduled to be released by April 20,2012.

      I can’t speak for the others involved but we have what we feel is the correct theory and a reactor quite unlike Rossi’s or Defkalions that they have exhibited.

      If your offer for a prize to demonstrate workable properties of what they are coining LENR as technology is in fact what you are willing to offer then would you also accept a demonstration also that didn’t work and pay a prize for that also?

      So it appears we feel a working theory and a multi chamber reactor could simutaneously provide factual data for the people either way.

      Would you say for fact if that would be possiible, either way we are bound to follow thru with this by April 20, 2012 for our own sanity and understanding of the LENR claims.

      My desire would be to formalize the challenge so after our reactor is completed in physical form I can simply contact you and get the prize money to further develop what we have come up with.

      By the way, there will be no problem with the patenting issues, patents are easy to get issued when you have a working product in fact, that is usefull and manufacturable.

      • dsm

        February 25, 2012 at 9:14 am

        Dale

        I hope you can do this – I’d love to see someone win that prize and prove to us that LENR is everything Rossi & Defkalion claim their to be.

        As a suggestion, the LENR process does *not* have to be commercial ready, just repeatable. Also, it is very clear from Piantelli’s research + Rossi’s efforts plus some others, that the LENR process may be reproducible but acts in bursts and can fluctuate between hi COP with high temp and low COP with much lower temps.

        I don’t believe we need proof of control of the process, that is what research by trial and error will resolve. Just that it is reproducible.

        Good luck – I’d love to see you win.

        Doug M

    • Allan Kiik

      February 26, 2012 at 3:35 pm

      “No. I would not be interested in being involved in any testing however I would accept a statement from any respected leading authority in this field. I am sure with suggestions from people on this site we could come up with a list.”

      That’s a pity, really!
      I can imagine a worlds most watched reality show, where Dick Smith’s team is flying around the world and testing, before cameras, at least some of the most interesting and credible “cold fusion” cases!
      May be that there’s even more money (than $1M prize) in this kind of show… Who knows 🙂

      We already have shows about various psychic’s powers testings, mostly useless but fun, this could be much better…

  11. Mr. H

    February 24, 2012 at 10:51 pm

    You know what is very sad to me? During the time of Nikola Tesla, either people failed to believe in him at all, or they thought that AC electricity was no good and would kill you. It was a very greedy man named Edison who started that, and JP Morgan finished it. They were trying to protect their investments in the marketplace by destroying another man’s work by making him look either foolish or dangerous. Many engineers throughout history had great contributions to give to the world; they were ignored, abused, forgotten, or their technology was stolen. We would have a very different day if these people had been allowed to bring out technology like they were supposed to.
    And please believe me when I say that the list is long and distinguished.
    The same thing is repeating itself today. We need to protect people like this who are trying desperately to get good technology out into the world that can help mankind worldwide. This is imperative.
    I know, I tried. In 1988 and 1989 I showed to the U.S. Congress a working generator that had 54 times more output than input, with my friend and then-partner Adam. My technology was verified by many big companies, but it was technology that no one wanted out because it threatened the status of the major powers in the world. That was surely not our intention; it was our intention to help, as so many others had tried to do. Once again I see the same old thing happening over and over again, and the same type of narrow-minded people; self-proclaimed intellectuals who cause nothing but grief because they do not believe in anything except for what they do and what they call science, as if there is no reality outside of their limited dogma. I find this deeply disturbing.
    Science is all about breaking boundaries and finding new limits, and sometimes we don’t understand all of these things. That is what makes it worthwhile, because we have the potential to learn. Once we discover that we can do something and make something work, then we look to science to develop and apply the math that correctly describes the phenomenon – not the other way around. Many things in this world have been discovered by mistake and accident because of great men who took chances and believed. They saw beyond what science dictated, and then brought the truth to us. That is what is important. That is what makes our world worthwhile and life worth living.
    As far as limits are concerned related to our own technology, it is our intention to achieve an output that can go up to a gigawatt, and we do have ways to do so. When our team is convinced that power levels are stable up to our goal, then we will announce our intentions and the product. In all these years while I was being quiet, do you really think that I’ve just been sitting on my butt doing nothing?
    I am an old man now, and I hope to impart some of my wisdom from the good Lord to good people by leaving behind some technology that can be of use to people in the future. I never wanted to be known by anybody, and the proof that I offer is that in history I have stayed out of the way since those early days. Now I’m back into some of these things again, and I hope that the knowledge will go on. In fact, I am making certain that the knowledge outlives me, and will be released to the world if I am silenced.
    Again I would like to give credit to Philo T. Farnsworth and Fleischmann and Pons; and now stepping into the future from 1989, I would like to say to Andrew Rossi – congratulations for a successful demonstration! You have broken the ice for many people. Please keep up the good work, we need more capable men and women like you. And please let us not forget the women; there are some wonderful girls out there doing great work that are not recognized, and we need to recognize them. They are as important as us men. They are our partners in life. It is about time we wake up and realize that without them we would be nowhere.
    I have no intentions of replying or writing any more about my feelings, or anything on this forum or about these issues. The reason why is because I am not good at expressing myself. I never have been. So for me, I will go back into my laboratory to continue with my work, and continue to learn as much as I humanly can about the possibilities of what’s out there.
    The only interest I have in giving any opinion at this time was to stick up for the people who are truly trying to do good work. And for those naysayers, I think it’s time you people back off. You are all looking very foolish; like people who have tiny little minds, instead of scientific explorers who have vision. I am eternally grateful that the truth is not confined to your knowledge.
    Remember everyone, our world is growing very small. We all need desperately to look at each other as brothers and sisters no matter what color, no matter what religion, and no matter what political affiliation. These artificial barriers must be broken and put down like a sick animal. If we do not do this for ourselves, we will not survive; and believe me when I say that the globalists who foster these barriers do not want us to survive. They do not want us to turn back to God. They want desperately to kill off at least 2/3 of the earth through disease, poverty, corruption, starvation, or sterilization, the better to control the few who are left. All of these terrible things can be avoided with good technology, and the wisdom and common sense to use it to help the world. I sincerely hope that the moderator will allow this to be said.
    My warmest regards to all,
    Dave

    • Al Potenza

      February 24, 2012 at 11:02 pm

      “In 1988 and 1989 I showed to the U.S. Congress a working generator that had 54 times more output than input, with my friend and then-partner Adam. My technology was verified by many big companies, but it was technology that no one wanted out because it threatened the status of the major powers in the world. ”

      That’s very interesting. Do you have proof of it? Is it in the Congressional Record? (Everything presented to Congress always is)

      Where can we find out more about this remarkable motor?

      • JNewman

        February 24, 2012 at 11:14 pm

        Can’t help with Dave’s motor, but if you click on his name, you can check out his website. A one-stop shopping center for advanced technologies.

    • Mahron - A4 B2

      February 24, 2012 at 11:08 pm

      Show your motor to dick smith. Just don’t ask for a NDA.

    • CuriousChris

      February 25, 2012 at 2:02 am

      I am calling Penn & Teller on everything you claim.

      It is dishonest people like you that make it impossible for people like the researchers in LENR to get any real funding. They are lumped into the same snake oil boat that you are in.

      Of course you will say I am not correct. So here is a challenge.

      Your 54 times over unity device. No-one wants it you say. Put the complete plans online. everything!

      Including the theory of operation. No-one wants it so you are not losing anything.

      When just one *trustworthy* person replicates it. I’ll apologise, and I’ll buy a licence.

      until then Bullshit!

    • CuriousChris

      February 25, 2012 at 3:30 am

      Oh, and your world leading scientist “Elizabeth A. Rauscher” is clear evidence even scientists can be fooled and are probable nutcases.

    • Quax

      February 25, 2012 at 3:34 am

      Dave,

      this is quite a story. Sorry to hear that things went so badly for you in the late eighties.

      One quibble though: You start off with invoking Tesla and Edison. While the latter really was a piece of work, and tried everything to kill off AC, this is actually an example where the better technology won out due to the financial backing of Westinghouse. A fascinating account can be found at

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Currents

      Tesla’s fortune ran out much later when he could not complete his engineering dream of transporting large amounts of electrical energy wirelessly.

    • Thicket

      February 26, 2012 at 5:50 pm

      Hello Mr. H

      Welcome to eCatNews. There’s always room for one more nut job inventor that has ‘saved the world but no one wants to listen’.

      When you say Adam, you wouldn’t be talking about Adam Trombly would you? He’s another nutjob that uses religion to push his hair-brained schemes.

      The slide show at your linked website is mindless drivel. The deceitful twist of words to trash Stephen Hawking are the ramblings of a deluded egocentric whacko.

      The websites list of products suggest attempts at fraud. Apparently, there is cold fusion technology. The site even acknowledges the work of Andrea Rossi. But it doesn’t stop there. There are also products for perpetual motion motor/generators, fusion, super-conductive wires, thermoelectric chips capable of operating at zero differential and other woo-woo pseudoscientific garbage. Oh, and how is the transmutation of metals going? I didn’t realize there were still practicing alchemists.

      You might actually be at a good forum. There are a number of posters here that believe all sorts of stuff.

    • Stephen

      March 2, 2012 at 3:39 am

      “…They do not want us to turn back to God…” Have I got a sucker, err… an investor for you!

      Post something intelligent if you are interested.

  12. Mahron - A4 B2

    February 24, 2012 at 11:49 pm

    • daniel maris

      February 25, 2012 at 12:11 am

      Forbes magazine lost credibility on this issue a long time ago.

      As for Dick’s comment, presumably he would have said the same if you had claimed in 1850 that within the next few years there would be an automated carriage with the power of a 100 horses. Yes – it was a fantastic idea!

      • Al Potenza

        February 25, 2012 at 12:23 am

        I suspect he would have unless, of course, you showed him the automated carriage with all that power and allowed him to test it.

        Rossi and Defkalion have said they have that carriage but nobody has been able to confirm beyond reasonable doubt that Rossi’s works.

        Despite promises we would see Defkalion’s tester id’s or the protocols today, we have not seen anything from them yet.

        It’s not the same thing.

      • Mahron - A4 B2

        February 25, 2012 at 12:26 am

        Statistically most of us would have been laughing at that too.

        • Stephen

          March 2, 2012 at 3:40 am

          LOL! Nailed that one, did ya!

  13. Dick Smith

    February 25, 2012 at 12:19 am

    Daniel. Yes I know about NASA and LENRs

    They of course would be an acceptable institution to say that the 1 KW device worked as claimed.

    The sole reason I mentioned that I had fulfilled my obligations by giving a dollar away was to minimize the rubbish posts claiming I have no intention of coming up with the money if the unit works.

    I believe my offer will show that no 1 K W device exists .

    • Al Potenza

      February 25, 2012 at 12:26 am

      The idea is good but there’s a tiny paradox there I can’t seem to escape. If someone has a 1 kW LENR device, they can develop, license and market it.

      Maybe a million dollar prize would help them get serious help to kick start their work and to protect the invention but that sort of invention is probably worth billions so a million more here or there wouldn’t matter much, would it?

    • Ben

      February 25, 2012 at 1:21 am

      There is a phrase to use to describe how you are going about things Dick. In the States we call it bass ackwards. You started out with definitive calls of fraud and now are working your way, although hesitantly and reluctantly, towards putting your money where your mouth now is. I actually think it may be progress, but I remain skeptical.

      If you are serious, follow the example of Sidney Kimmel who just GAVE 5.5 MILLION to the University of Missouri to fund a device that produces excess energy only 20% of the time, and even then in only small amounts. Although the numbers and reliability remain poor, it is still sufficient to demonstrate proof of principal. Contact Dr. Robert Duncan, Vice-Chancellor of research at the University of Missouri, if you would like proof of claims.

      However, I would recommend the research group of Dr. George Miley, a well-respected physicist (look it up) at the University of Illinois, who up until recently, when his group ran out of money, was working on a device whose performance that matched that claimed by Rossi’s. In return, you would get a building named after you and probably credit for help changing the world.

      Regardless, I would tone down the calls of fraud, as Paul has asked you to do repeatedly, if you want to be taken seriously.

      • CuriousChris

        February 25, 2012 at 2:07 am

        Still censoring your blog Ben? Cant take the heat perhaps.

        • Ben

          February 25, 2012 at 2:22 am

          Try posting something that shows you have the capacity for rationale thought, and we can take things from there. Until then, I believe you have a home right here, so no worries eh mate?

          • CuriousChris

            February 25, 2012 at 3:11 am

            Your post made no mention of a phone call it did make a mention of an email It was natural to assume you used emails to communicate.

            I even said I assume it was an email.

            You could have provided a copy of the email you did get. and pointed out it was a phone call.

            Your lack of honesty and transparency is on full display. You have provided no proof you actually made the phone call or what was in it.

            My Name is CuriousChris not Gullible like the other readers of your blog.

          • Ben

            February 25, 2012 at 5:19 am

            Your lack of ability to read for context and draw reasonable conclusions is on display. My site is for people who are able to do so, which is why your comments are not welcome there.

            Please show some respect for Paul and this site by ceasing to mention mine. I do not mind the free publicity but your carrying on is not only inappropriate but is beginning to border on slander. I would suggest that you show some restraint.

    • daniel maris

      February 25, 2012 at 1:40 am

      Dick Smith – I don’t really understand what you are saying. It sounds as if you accept NASA probably do have an LENR device. But you don’t seem prepared to put in your money to help make this a marketable device, even though it could help so much with so many serious problems across the world including periodic droughts in Australia.

  14. dsm

    February 25, 2012 at 1:32 am

    As a bit of light relief, will introduce an amazing bit of US technology that wasn’t a scam as such but an example of how enough money could have made even Paul Moller’s skycar work (in a fashion).

    To lead into this story I’ll add some thoughts that were commonplace in the aerospace industry 10-12 years ago in regard to the ongoing development of a tilt-rotor aircraft to fulfill a role in the us defense system. It began back in 1981 & it was 2007/2009 before they were able to deliver working craft.

    – it is far too complicated to control
    – it is the classic widow maker approach to flying
    – the technology doesn’t exist for it to work today
    – only egos and aerospace funding will keep it alive 🙂

    Well after massive overruns in costs (staggering overruns) the US proved that just like they could get to the moon if they really tried, they could eventually get a Boeing V-22 tiltrotor Osprey to fly and do the vertical / horizontal transitions if they threw enough money at it.

    It killed a few pilots and crew, it crashed & burned more than once, but determination and a bizarre funding system that allowed money to just keep pouring in, produced a working result.

    My current bet is it will be one of the shortest lived aircraft in military use due to the complexity and the horrendous cost to build one as well as maintain it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey

    Some snippets …

    Doug M

    *********************************

    The first V-22 was rolled out with significant media attention in May 1988.[19][20] The project suffered several blows. That year, the U.S. Army left the program, citing a need to focus its budget on more immediate aviation programs.[6] The project faced opposition in the Senate in 1989, surviving two votes that both could have resulted in cancellation.[21][22] Despite the Senate’s decision, the Department of Defense instructed the U.S. Navy not to spend more money on the Osprey.[23] When the V-22’s projected development budget greatly increased in 1988, Defense Secretary Dick Cheney tried to remove funding from 1989 to 1992 in an effort to cancel it. He was eventually overruled by Congress,[7][23][24] which provided unrequested funding for the program.[25] Multiple studies of alternative aircraft found the V-22 provided more capability and combat effectiveness with similar operating costs as the alternatives.[26] The Clinton Administration was supportive of the V-22 and helped the program attain funding.[7]

    *********************************

    The V-22’s development process has been long and controversial, partly due to its large cost increases.[40] The V-22’s development budget was first planned for $2.5 billion in 1986, then increased to a projected $30 billion in 1988.[24] As of 2008, $27 billion had been spent on the Osprey program and another $27.2 billion will be required to complete planned production numbers by the end of the program.[17]

    Its [The V-22’s] production costs are considerably greater than for helicopters with equivalent capability—specifically, about twice as great as for the CH-53E, which has a greater payload and an ability to carry heavy equipment the V-22 cannot… an Osprey unit would cost around $60 million to produce, and $35 million for the helicopter equivalent.
    —Michael E. O’Hanlon, 2002.[41]

    The V-22 squadron’s former commander at Marine Corps Air Station New River, Lieutenant Colonel Odin Lieberman, was relieved of duty in 2001 after allegations that he instructed his unit that they needed to falsify maintenance records to make the plane appear more reliable.[17][42] Three officers were later implicated in the falsification scandal.[40]

    *********************************

    The aircraft is incapable of autorotation to make a safe landing in helicopter mode if both engines fail. A director of the Pentagon’s testing office in 2005 said that if the Osprey loses power while flying like a helicopter below 1,600 feet (490 m), emergency landings “are not likely to be survivable”. But Captain Justin “Moon” McKinney, a V-22 pilot, says there is an alternative, “We can turn it into a plane and glide it down, just like a C-130”.[37] A complete loss of power would require the failure of both engines, as one engine can power both proprotors via interconnected drive shafts.[43] While vortex ring state (VRS) contributed to a deadly V-22 accident, the aircraft is less susceptible to the condition than conventional helicopters based on flight testing.[4] But a GAO report stated the V-22 to be “less forgiving than conventional helicopters” during this phenomenon.[44] In addition, several test flights to explore the V-22’s VRS characteristics in greater detail were canceled.[45] The Marines now train new pilots in the recognition of and recovery from VRS and have instituted operational envelope limits and instrumentation to help pilots avoid VRS conditions.[24][46]

    With the first combat deployment of the MV-22 in October 2007, Time Magazine ran an article condemning the aircraft as unsafe, overpriced, and completely inadequate.[37] The Marine Corps responded by arguing that much of the article’s data were dated, obsolete, inaccurate, and reflected expectations that ran too high for any new field of aircraft.[47]

    • dsm

      February 25, 2012 at 2:49 am

      The GAO cost ests for the Osprey

      http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-09-692T

      How some US tax dollars get spent

      Doug M

      The V-22 program has already received or requested over $29 billion in development and procurement funds. The estimated funding required to complete development and procure additional V-22s is almost $25 billion (then-year dollars). In addition, the program continues to face a future of high operations and support cost funding needs, currently estimated at $75.4 billionfor the life cycle of the program. Before committing to the full costs of completing production and supporting the V-22, the uses, cost, and performance of the V-22 need to be clarified and alternatives should be re-considered.

    • Quax

      February 25, 2012 at 3:40 am

      Defense contractors are great at milking the government’s tit even when no complex technology is involved, just look at how they made out with the Iraq conflict.

  15. CuriousChris

    February 25, 2012 at 3:21 am

    “For those who think this has all dragged on for too long, I guess you have never worked on the front edge of technical innovation. This is not slow by a long shot.”

    Exactly. Its much much too fast. as DSM and I have pointed out numerous times to the disgust of others you don’t go from nothing to creating new technology in a marketable form in just a few short months.

    It is simply implausable and in my mind impossible.

    So they either stole the technology and added some bells and whistles or its a scam. Either way Defkalion are not being truthful.

  16. Quax

    February 25, 2012 at 3:49 am

    Dick Smith offer of one million dollar for a 1KW LENR device is not the equivalent to an X-price but still a great idea and nothing to scoff at.

    I think this is a fantastic challenge and with Dale G. Basgall we already have somebody who’d be willing to take it.

    Now if somebody else on this site could make a connection to a respected independent institution that could host such a challenge that’ll just make my day.

  17. Dick Smith

    February 25, 2012 at 3:53 am

    Daniel. I would have thought what I was saying is very clear.

    That is I simple dont believe that NASA can be stuffing around for years spending millions of dollars only getting tiny amounts of power when there are two organizations who claim they already have proven LENR devices which can give Kilowatts.

    Why hasn’t NASA once offered to provide substantial funding to these organizations?
    I know- they want the fame themselves!

    There is no way I would waste a cent of money on research when a number of leading nuclear scientists it’s either a hoax or down in the noise .

    When the public hear about my offer and after 12 months there have been no claimants they will rightly be skeptical.

    • spacegoat

      February 25, 2012 at 4:59 am

      “..I simple dont believe that NASA can be stuffing around for years spending millions of dollars only getting tiny amounts of power when there are two organizations who claim they already have proven LENR devices which can give Kilowatts.

      Forget Nasa, there is plenty of evidence that LENR should be the number one research priority. Forget the vested interests in science (MIT 1989) rubbishing the LENR field. Simply use your own logic. … On a benefits/risk approach LENR research would have a ratio approaching infinity.

      See below for a related comment about your limited resources angst.

    • Ransompw

      February 25, 2012 at 6:56 am

      Dick:

      First, NASA isn’t and hasn’t spent millions doing LENR tests. Try thinking petty cash when they can spare a few bucks which isn’t often. Where would you ever get the notion NASA budgeted a program for this or spent any significant amount of money.

      Second, NASA has a hard enough time getting Congress to budget for their programs, they don’t fund someone elses program. Really never, it just wouldn’t happen.

      But the suggestion of a prize is a good idea. Prizes act like investment multiples. It really is amazing. The Orteig prize won by Lindbergh was $25,000 and generated some $400,000 of investment by the teams trying to win. They are the best bang for the buck of any stimulas, Governments should use them more often.

  18. Dick Smith

    February 25, 2012 at 3:56 am

    Quax. And just who do you reckon would be able to get a respected scientific organization state that 1 MW unit has been proven?

    • Quax

      February 25, 2012 at 4:20 am

      Are we talking 1MW or 1KW? The former will be a bit more involved. The latter any average university’s physics dept should be able to measure competently without much prep time.

      In the end really the only thing that matters is energy density so I’d recommend sticking to 1KW.

      Don’t think there’s any chance for a 1MW within one year time frame. (that is unless Rossi’s ethereal device is the real deal. But we already know he won’t play).

      Anyhow, if you want to play it safe 1MW is the number.

  19. Dick Smith

    February 25, 2012 at 4:10 am

    Ben. What you are saying is ridiculous

    Why wouldn’t Dr Miley simply buy a Rossi unit? Why would he want to waste more money on research?

    Have you asked him?

    Oh I know Dr Miley believes Rossi is a fraud and has no such unit so he has to keep researching.

    Then why don’t you accept his view- or do you?

    • Ben

      February 25, 2012 at 6:42 am

      Why would Dr. Miley want to buy a Rossi unit when he can build his own? Yes, you read that right. As recently as October he was discussing commercialization. He would still like to do some research so he can optimize the effect even further but he has no funds.

      He is not a businessman, he is a scientist and I would imagine the road to commercialization is a daunting task for him, especially at his age. He could probably use the counsel of an experienced business person like yourself.

      Short of that, I would guess that he will take his work to China since he holds a position at a Chinese university as well. How would you feel about that Dick? Your good neighbors in China having access to a revolutionary technology that you bypassed because you were too busy showboating. Is that the kind of legacy you wish to leave Dick?

  20. Dick Smith

    February 25, 2012 at 4:33 am

    Quad. Sorry a typo. 1 KW it is. That would solve the worlds energy problems if it is true LENR in the spirit of Rosdi and Defkalion.

    Want bigger? Just connect a few dozen together.

    • Dale G. Basgall

      February 25, 2012 at 4:54 am

      Mr. Smith I find your words are repeated with money attached, and yes you may promise but never have to produce because of the odds. Like a gamble.

      Anyway it’s your statements that aren’t really cosistent with someone that considers it possible that LENR could be developed in a useful way.

      So thanks for delivering the message to all us kids that used to believe in Santa Clause.

      What good did it do after we found out or realized facts, Santa is a made up character!

      • Quax

        February 25, 2012 at 4:59 am

        Dale, don’t be so depressing. My kids still believe in Santa!

      • dsm

        February 25, 2012 at 9:25 am

        Dale

        I am lost – did I miss this somehow but – didn’t Dick Smith offer a $1Mill reward for *anyone* who could demo LENR at 1 Kw & he only needed a recognized LENR researcher to validate the tests ??? (Kullander McKubre Essen Hagelstien etc – am sure they would jump at the opportunity)

        If I missed this somehow pls clarify for my confused mind 🙂

        Thanks

        Doug

    • Quax

      February 25, 2012 at 4:57 am

      This is a bit far fetched but anyhow … just brainstorming.

      Do you have the TV show the Mythbusters down under?

      It is not what they usually do as they try to replicate mythical devices themselves, so unless a contender was completely open with their technology it may not be a good fit.

      Otherwise they’d be a dream team for such a test. Critical scrutiny, TV coverage and maximum publicity guaranteed.

      • dsm

        February 25, 2012 at 9:21 am

        Mythbusters is an Australian tv show & it features in the US – 🙂

        Go check its heritage – I was talking to one of the people behind it here 3 weeks back.

        Cheers

        Doug M

  21. spacegoat

    February 25, 2012 at 4:50 am

    I believe Dick Smith has a million dollar prize out there to be awarded for his population control and economic development reduction ideas.

    This will currently only be possible under a dystopian future where governments control reproduction and control our every move through the global warming scam and what appears to be the reality of limited resources. Resources are only limited if energy is limited and that may come to an end with LENR.

    Population control is only humanely possible through education and economic development. This is the case in the country where I reside, in the 120’s to 130’s in economic development.

    So how about Mr Smith award his development prize to himself by propagating the LENR solution to his resource conundrum. LENR, if developed will allow education and economic well-being for all and so reduce population and unbalanced expansion. Once Mr Smith has received his own prize, then it would be magnanimous of him to then allocate it to a LENR X-prize.

    How about it Mr Smith?

    • Quax

      February 25, 2012 at 5:01 am

      So do I have this right, you think global warming is a scam but the ecat/Hyperion is real?

      • spacegoat

        February 25, 2012 at 11:17 am

        Man made global warming is a scam. Global warming and cooling is a natural process.

        • spacegoat

          February 25, 2012 at 11:17 am

          And the ecat/Hyperion are hypotheses. Of course

  22. Bernie Koppenhofer

    February 25, 2012 at 5:42 am

    Hi fellow LENR followrs:

    The NASA video, the MIT experiments, Edmond Storms videos and book, Busnell quotes, the belivablity and history of Focardi, the two Swedish scientists who verified Rossi experiments; all send me in one direction. It is very possible Rossi and/or Defkalon have what they say. I am certainly willing to wait and see without attacking their motives and honesty without evidence.

    • dsm

      February 25, 2012 at 9:19 am

      Bernie

      “the two Swedish scientists who verified Rossi experiments;”

      I read the transcript of Prof Kullander’s preo at Uppsala & I did *not* hear him ‘verify’ Dr Rossi’s experiment. In fact you may not like to hear it but Kullander said he saw 2 black boxes on the trip 1 was the eCat & the other Rossi.

      I hardly see how that is verification.

      Please provide a link backing up your point.

      Thanks

      Doug M

  23. quax

    February 25, 2012 at 6:26 am

    I am off for the night.

    This whole saga reminds me off another scientific thriller (albeit a bit less controversial one) that I am following religiously: The race for quantum computating.

    It also features a controversial character who likes to make big wagers to prove a point. Unlike Dick Smith he probably could not afford to pay up. And although Dick’s old commercial on youtube is quite charming and funny, this guy’s in his own league. If MIT ever tiers of him he could probably make a living as comedian. One of a kind stand up science routine. Do yourself a favour and have a good laugh.

    http://tedxcaltech.com/speakers/scott-aaronson

    • Dale G. Basgall

      February 25, 2012 at 7:07 am

      Thanks quax very perceptive! and double thanks I needed that.

  24. duecat

    February 25, 2012 at 6:29 am

    All you demanding unequivocal proof want Rossie to bring his knife to a tank fight. You think it will work to stab the greatest powers in the world in the stomach and win the battle? If he has the real deal, the only way it will see the light of day is if thousands of people have a working devise in their hands. Even then, he is unlikely to over come the attach from all corners that will ensue. It will however lay the foundation for a grass root movement to over throw the oligarchy controlling our energy sources . I appreciate the Dick Smiths who are providing cover with all this fraud talk while progress is able to continue on the ecat and/or other competitive LENR projects . Thanks

    • dsm

      February 25, 2012 at 9:42 am

      Can you clarify what you are trying to see.

      What is the tank fight you talk of. Rossi only has to prove to Prof Kullander at Uppsala that he has a real LENR device & he will likely get a Nobel prize. What is difficult to follow about that ???

      Thanks

      Doug M

  25. Methusela

    February 25, 2012 at 8:47 am

    • Methusela

      February 25, 2012 at 8:55 am

      Letter begins:

      Dear Daniel

      During the interview by Melis on MIT’s Peter Hagelstein colleague, I believe I have a duty to clarify and publicize my assessments to the claims of the latter in the context of the entire interview with Radio 24.

      Regardless of the historical responsibility of MIT have ditched the Fleishman and Pons (Hagelstein didn’t blame), wouldn’t that be once again used the authority of this Institute to spread (or rather pontificate!) information and inaccurate advice.

      That’s a microsoft bing translation.

    • AB

      February 25, 2012 at 11:32 am

      He is clarifying that Rossi’s e-cat is a quantitative and qualitative improvement of Piantelli’s cells in the 90’s.

      • AB

        February 25, 2012 at 11:33 am

        Remember that Hagelstein called the e-cat a derivation of the Piantelli cell.

    • dsm

      February 25, 2012 at 11:41 am

      Methusela

      Are you able to translate this to reasonable English – google messes it up too much.

      It is a valuable bit of information and has Prof Stremmenos explaining why Rossi was succeeding.

      He hones in on the ‘catalyst’ that was enabling larger energy bursts – and it appears to be in line with the Widom-Larsen explanation of SPP.

      But this bit was intriguing (my translation) – use of RESONANT COHERENT ELECTROMAGNETISM to improve the control of existing thermal anomalies (I take them to be the bursts of energy that many LENR process are known to produce). This to me is the ‘pulsing’ that as well as heating, that is applied to trigger then control the Ni+H LENR effect.

      So while this is a valuable link. at the moment it is “all Greek to me” (even if it is in Italian) 🙂

      Doug M

      • Spyros

        February 25, 2012 at 12:42 pm

        “It all is Greek to me” is an incorrect phrase. A lot of English words are of Greek origin (much more than you imagine).

        A Greek

        • dsm

          February 25, 2012 at 11:20 pm

          That expression is a classic English phrase for saying I don’t understand.

          Yup we owe a hell of a lot to the Greeks in so many spheres. Thank the lord their works remained intact in the Andalusian libraries and when the Spanish chased the moors out of Spain, the rest of western Europe got their 1st Greek writings when they were translated back from Arabic in to other European languages.

          Those teachings sort of protected us from the worst of the church during the ‘dark ages’.

          Doug M

  26. CuriousChris

    February 25, 2012 at 9:06 am

    I am ashamed

    I was watching the apologists come out of the woodwork, making excuses for the failure of defkalion to keep their promises. When I suddenly realised I had done the same thing.

    To my shame I had become an apologist for Dick Smith. When Dick came onto the scene I really believed he would be true to his word. That he wanted to find the truth. I challenged those that attacked his good intentions. But I also glossed over the things that were happening, even though something was nagging at me. Why hadn’t he taken the opportunities available to him.

    As a sceptic it is critical that I am sceptical of everything and everyone. But I wasn’t being a sceptic when it came to Dick Smith. I wasn’t being sceptical when it came to ME!

    It is now apparent Dick Smith never intended to take the opportunity available to him. While I respect that he did not want to spend money chasing something he clearly does not believe in. It was in my opinion wrong to splash claims of $1M. All you had to do Dick was to accept their offer. Perhaps even sent a few responsible people to Greece to view the tests. When Defkalion tried to tie you into knots and protect themselves with an unreasonable NDA, a contract or some other unreasonable arrangement. Then you could have outed them. Instead you appeared to use the excuse of an NDA to get out of your magnanimous gesture. Which I do not believe you ever sighted, as you have never offered to quote from it. If you never intended to follow through, I personally don’t think you should have made such offers in the first place.

    Of course this does not change my increasing belief the reason why Defkalion have not kept their word is because those responsible have drained the bank account of funds received as down payments on non existent licenses and run to a country that doesn’t have an extradition treaty with Greece. or some similar ruse.

    • dsm

      February 25, 2012 at 9:27 am

      Chris

      What is all this ? – have you been into some Margaret River Cab Sav ? That is a potent brew 🙂

      Lemme know tomorrow what this was about.

      Cheers

      Doug M

      • CuriousChris

        February 25, 2012 at 10:51 am

        What can I say, I am a sceptic and I outed myself!

        P.S. Quax’s ted talk link is a hoot 🙂

    • dsm

      February 25, 2012 at 9:39 am

      Chris

      Re Defkalion – they are only likely to be scammers if they took non-refundable money from investors before any tests or device were proven.

      We really don’t know (do you) if they have yet done that. It sure appeared to be their intention but that alone (intention) is not good enough to convict without evidence they took non-refundable money.

      Now if *any* serious company handed over (not into escrow) $40Mill Euros without a due diligence test of the Defkalion LENR reactor then they truly are fools with more money than sense.

      If you go read the Defkalion testing document it states the tests would be conducted after the device was ‘certified’ – so what did that mean ?.

      We still need to be open minded & whilst I think what they said they were planning on doing looked to me 100% like a scam (because I can’t see where their claimed miracle LENR device came from), the scamming is only true if they actually took money of someone/company for a device they don’t have.

      Have they done this yet ? – I don’t know even if they implied they would.

      Cheers

      Doug

      • CuriousChris

        February 25, 2012 at 10:44 am

        You are correct I don’t know that Defkalion have scarpered with the money, But if you are going to offer licenses worth many millions to people you don’t do it on their word. you would always take a down payment. Without exception.

        So I am assuming licencees have paid a sum of money. the rest of my statement is mere speculaion.

        But DGT’s now deafening silence and failure to fulfill their own statement about pre announcing the test parameters makes me wonder if there is anyone at the helm.

        I have noticed they cleaned some spam from their forum. but that may be an employee or perhaps a moderator working for free.

        Every delay makes me more and more sceptical.

        I am a regular on their forums and the electronics claim is as you say bullshit.

        They also refuse to answer reasonable questions like the phase II chemical heater. Amazingly I seem to have been the only one asking questions about it, at least recently and I did search for answers.

      • CuriousChris

        February 25, 2012 at 10:45 am

        Oops I meant as Jami said Bullshit!

    • John Milstone

      February 25, 2012 at 10:53 am

      Of course this does not change my increasing belief the reason why Defkalion have not kept their word is because those responsible have drained the bank account of funds received as down payments on non existent licenses and run to a country that doesn’t have an extradition treaty with Greece. or some similar ruse.

      That isn’t how investor scams typically work.

      They don’t seem to ever have an “exit strategy”. They just issue glowing press releases from time to time, and they produce “demos” that look good but never actually prove that their device works (i.e. they never allow it to be testing independently, they never allow someone else to run the test, etc.)

      It’s hard to believe, but these scams typically run for 5-10 years before the investors finally get so disgusted that they start legal actions.

      In the meantime, the con men will have collected millions (or more) from their gullible investors.

      HERE and is a good example. Madison Priest claimed to have invented a way of sending hi-def video over an ordinary telephone modem in real-time. He spent years giving impressive demos, and collected tens of millions from investors, including Intel, General Dynamics, Blockbuster Video, and a former U.S. Senator.

      It’s really worth reading these articles to see just how well a good con man can bamboozle his victims. His scam ran from 1994 to at least 2002 (when these articles were published).

      • CuriousChris

        February 25, 2012 at 1:09 pm

        Actually my initial consideration was tax fraud. many governments give out big tax incentives to companies for green initiatives.

        The board of directors get great tax breaks and I mean who really cares if the product fails. but I have changed my mind. those scams work best when spun out over years. unless there its different under Greek tax laws.

        great link. aliens hey. well Rossi will probably invoke them pretty soon. maybe his mystery buyer?

        • John Milstone

          February 25, 2012 at 1:15 pm

          I don’t know enough about the dreadful situation in Greece, but you could very well be right about their target being the government or tax payers instead of, or in addition to, gullible investors.

          I’m not aware of any previous scams working that angle, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

          • Jami

            February 25, 2012 at 1:40 pm

            Happens all the time. You found a company and invest in it. You make yourself (or your wife) the director and pay yourself handsomly, do a half assed attempt at making money with it (but fail) and write off the losses against your tax load. I’m doing exactly that with some buildings I bought in former east germany. I had to renovate them but are still losing money due to low rents – write off the loss and make money at the end of it all. Its even legal. The government encouraged it in order to get private investors into the whole rebuilding effort and they didn’t want to do it directly. They’ve been doing the same thing with solar/wind/water on an even bigger scale. Not sure cold fusion would be accepted – but in Greece? Who knows.

  27. Jami

    February 25, 2012 at 10:20 am

    “Exactly. Its much much too fast.”

    I was wondering about that. The machines are probably very simple. On the other hand the principle(s) supposedly driving them are basically unknown. If you want to cut Rossi and DGT some slack you could argue that, once you found the secret sauce, it would be really easy from there. Defkalion was asked about that and (stunningly) said that while their devices where very simple in terms of materials and working principle, they were highly advanced in terms of electronics and control algorithms. Actually they claimed having electronics more advanced than on a modern car or plane. And that’s complete b*llshit, of course. They’d need years and years and a far bigger team than they have now to get anywhere near a prototype stage – let alone mass production.
    So either that was just talk and they’ve not looked at modern controlling devices in thirty years or so – or … well.

    • CuriousChris

      February 25, 2012 at 10:48 am

      Rossi has been working on the ecat for a long time, in his case its believable. But DGT have been at it only a few short months and claim they “invented’ their own version totally different to Rossi’s
      So you can cut Rossi some slack on that front but not DGT IMHO.

  28. Jami

    February 25, 2012 at 11:29 am

    Yes, but Rossi is just one person (if you don’t count the plumber owning the messy toolbag, that is) and DGT, while not looking significantly more professional in their first “lab” video, seemed to have at least a handfull. Either way, developing products like this to market ready status has to take many more man-years than Rossi or DGT could have invested so far – unless there is some huge R&D effort going on in the background that nobody knows anything about. In a way the NI story made sense (or would have, if it was true) because a company like that would probably be able to throw in enough skilled and experienced human resource to make the electronics part of it happen in a relatively short time. DGT or Rossi alone? Not a chance.

  29. dsm

    February 25, 2012 at 11:44 am

    One other comment

    It would really be funny if Rossi ends up winning Dick Smith’s prize anyway.

    But Dr Rossi has IMHO so mishandled everything he gets involved in that he has done irreparable harm to LENR research worldwide, unless he calms down & lets some one like Kullander (his credentials are ideal) check it out & nominate him for the Nobel prize.

    Doug M

    • Bob

      February 26, 2012 at 11:02 pm

      He is not a Dr.

  30. Philip C.

    February 27, 2012 at 8:57 pm

    If the world is indeed flat into the abyss AR and ecat will go. If the earth does not orbit the sun then let the greek chariot of fire ride across the sky again and again.

    Like the author, I await the truth, but imagine the possibility.
    Seems to me Einstein liked imagination too.

    Occassionally, the BEST minds are wrong – if not just once in a while.

    My question is who has been duped? I mean financially? If I had the keys to the energy universe I doubt I would care what the blogosphere thinks.

    I am cautiosly optimistic.

    Oh yeah fight on.

  31. jetmech

    February 27, 2012 at 9:11 pm

    The Defkalion test was supposed to start on Feb 24
    and run for 48 hours?
    Does anyone know what the results were?
    Or when they will be announced?