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National Instruments Confirms Rossi Version Of Relationship – Updated

February 22, 2012

See update at post end.

One of the major stories adding to the worry surrounding Andrea Rossi’s eCat credibility centred on National Instruments. While no one should have used their apparent involvement as proof of life, there is no doubt that the giant’s ‘presence’ lent an air of substance that is often lacking in eCat Land. When AR followed a Steven Krivit post with a statement seeming to back him up (a truly rare event) I was dismayed. The discovery of NI’s absence was minor but the concern that there might be more to the story was a genuine blow to my confidence that followed hot on the heels of the unshipped 1MW plant. Did this mean that NI was merely discussing a business deal with Leonardo Corp? If so, what of the oft-implied assertion that they and the eCat were becoming close buddies? If that was not true then how can we believe anything that AR says about anything?

For me, the detail was small in the scheme of things but, like a pulled thread, undermined the tapestry we’d constructed using partial pieces from an unreliable narrator. If the NI thing was BS, what else was?

The need for caution remains and we have to recognise our tendency to use information to reinforce our own beliefs or bolster our dreams. With that caveat in mind, I was pleased to read an article at

Guessing there was more to the story than the version written by Krivit, e-catsite contacted Julia Betts, NI’s Corporate Communications and Investor Relations Manager and spokeswoman at the heart of Krivit’s piece. The complete article is well worth reading with the following stand-out:

While Ms. Betts reiterated once again that Leonardo Corp was not currently a customer of National Instruments, there have been ongoing discussions between the two parties.  Discussion is the key word here.  Many, including myself, have taken this to mean there have been merely some preliminary discussions regarding a business relationship between the two parties.  After my conversation with Ms. Betts, it would seem that the word “discussion” as used in this context has a meaning with somewhat more depth, with that meaning being ongoing technical collaboration between the parties.  This collaboration has been at the level that Rossi has frequently alluded to in his comments on JONP and, specifically to comments he made earlier this week.  Over the past several months he has frequently stated that he was working with National Instruments on E-Cat development.  I specifically asked Ms. Betts if these statements were exaggerations or outright lies on Mr. Rossi’s part and she informed me that THEY WERE NOT, and that indeed Mr. Rossi has been portraying Leonardo Corp’s work with National Instruments accurately. She e-mailed me this link specifically as an accurate accounting of the relationship that has existed between the two parties.  It of course is Rossi’s accounting that he posted on his blog earlier this week, as it appeared in article on Independent eCat News (it would appear that Ms. Betts is aware as anyone who has followed this story how bloody difficult it is to read JONP).
I did also ask Ms. Betts about NI’s official position on the whole field of LENR, to which she reiterated the sentiments expressed in previously released statements, namely that LENR is intriguing and has potential.  I find that view a breath of fresh air in comparison to two decades old (and continuing) calls of fraud and “junk science.”

Seperating the two factors – cold fusion and the eCat – is important. LENR is almost certainly an important energy source of the future and later in the e-catsite piece an NI release appears to specifically agree. That she linked to this site demonstrates an active awareness we all guessed had to be there. NI has no doubt whatsoever about the controversy surrounding cold fusion and its recent incarnation through Andrea Rossi. In supporting AR’s version of the NI affair, she is doing so in the face of extreme scepticism in the wider scientific community. Far from an endorsement, her statements nevertheless indicate a desire to keep close to this developing technology. It would be easy to jump to the conclusion that they think there might be money in this sometime soon. But we won’t do that.

Kudos to e-catsite. The article is here.

[With thanks to Anders F]


e-catsite has updated their article to include a clarification from NI’s Julia Betts. In it she points out that her corroboration is limited to the more general points of AR’s statements regarding their relationship and specifically to the quote linked to above (and on In other words the company cannot know or be responsible for everything Leonardo Corp says. I take this as a half step back, demonstrating a little sensibl caution on their part – something I fully understand.

I will let you decide if you wish to read anything more into it or not.

More in the update.

Posted by on February 22, 2012. Filed under Drama,Krivit,Media & Blogs,Rossi. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

672 Responses to National Instruments Confirms Rossi Version Of Relationship – Updated

  1. georgehants

    February 23, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    John Milstone you said —-
    There are dozens of your posts which contain nothing but insults, addressed at anyone who doesn’t agree with you.
    You apologize to all of those people, then you can complain about my post

    My reply John, you are a lier everyone of my posts contains a point, if you reply to me with a comment based on that point I will happily reply.
    Do not use cheap innuendo to justify your inability to debate my fair points.
    Do not try to draw me into your crazy circular World, make a debatable point and stop whining that I do not respect you just because you and fools like Dick Smith seems to think people should when they talk tripe.
    I look forward to a sensible debating point without your continual evasion and abuse.

  2. Loop

    February 23, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    My suggestion for the current action would be that 50 or more users from the ecatnews would make a post on the defkalion board, asking for the list of testers and organizations which were included in the testing protocol.

    Post in 5 major threads on their forum, make them hard.

    • Lu

      February 23, 2012 at 3:55 pm

      There have many such posts asking for this information and Defkalion has always stated they will publish the procedures along with the identity of the testers and observers (with permission) before the test. That said it’s just prior to February 24th date of the first test and it’s eerily quiet over there….

      • Loop

        February 23, 2012 at 4:10 pm

        Yes but they (posts which were asking for the names) are scattered through the threads.

        If 50 or more users in a raw’s, start demanding the list of names and if the pressure is hard, by the reaction of their stuff we could make the psychological profile of the situation.

        • Lu

          February 23, 2012 at 4:29 pm

          I don’t think so.

        • Quax

          February 23, 2012 at 4:56 pm

          Just started a new topic on their forum “Identities of the independent testers”. And asked politely when they plan to release the identity information.

          Would be great if other could flood this with similar polite requests (don’t give them an excuse to censure).

    • Ivan Mohorovicic

      February 23, 2012 at 4:00 pm

      Can’t we just wait for tomorrow and see what will happen?

      • Loop

        February 23, 2012 at 4:05 pm

        No its important that we make the biggest pressure on them, right now, its late tomorrow.

  3. Quax

    February 23, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    The amount of personal bickering on this site is getting to the point of making it almost unreadable.

    I wish the admin would enforce moderation a bit more stringently.

    How about an enforced timeout after somebody sinks to personal insults (and I think that should include perceived “retaliation”).

    Wish people would accept that this story offers enough ammunition to support the entire spectrum of stances from hardcore believer to set in stone skeptic.

    Posters here should be able to debate this without lowering themselves to gutter rhetoric.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      February 23, 2012 at 4:45 pm

      On its part, I think the edit function also contributed to improved quality of the posts in the past.

      • Methusela

        February 23, 2012 at 5:49 pm

        Yes, at least it would be possible to reconsider and then delete ones own posts.

    • Peter Roe

      February 23, 2012 at 6:28 pm

      Yes I agree. There probably isn’t much to discuss at the moment, but if/when there is input from DGT’s tests it would be a shame if this is buried in a torrent of irrelevant junk.

      However it would be asking too much to expect Admin to police the comments on a minute-by-minute basis, or to apply what would amount to routine censorship.

  4. Pekka Janhunen

    February 23, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    Ross says:
    February 23rd, 2012 at 11:05 AM
    Dear Helmut H.:
    Not only MIT, but many others. Many copies derived from our patent application have been made, this is why the competition is on the market: who will be able to produce the best at the best price will win.

    In one of his earlier replies Rossi counted Celani in the copy category. So MIT, Celani, …

    • Ivy Matt

      February 23, 2012 at 6:45 pm

      Copies…derived from his patent application?

      I expect the fallout from this statement will be interesting. 🙂

      *sigh* I think I’m going to go through withdrawals when this show is over.

      • daniel maris

        February 23, 2012 at 7:52 pm

        The analogy I would use is that of a 60s pop group hearing an old southern blues song and adapting it for their market. The tunes are slightly different but the one was clearly inspired by the other – but not enough to prove plagiarism in court. I think that is the case with Rossi an DGT but of course Rossi wasn’t the first to come up with nickel-hydrogren was he?

        • Ivy Matt

          February 24, 2012 at 4:18 pm

          Sorry, but with the possible exceptions of DGT and a handful of amateur replicators, I think Rossi is totally talking through his hat here.

  5. georgehants

    February 23, 2012 at 5:06 pm

    Al there was no place to answer on old page so have brought to here.
    Al Potenza
    February 23, 2012 at 4:54 pm
    Unless I am mistaken, most of us having been waiting patiently for evidence for quite a while.
    From Rossi, better evidence could have come more than a year ago simply by his doing liquid flow calorimetry or steam sparging.
    Defkalion has kept us waiting since at least June 2011 with tantalizing promises. They said they did dozens of flow calorimetry tests. They said the Greek authorities were testing their Hyperions. They have never presented anything to show that their claims are true.
    So here we wait. Let’s hope they keep their new test schedule for tomorrow and that they release the names of the testers and the results of the tests.
    If they don’t, George, how much longer do you want everyone to wait before giving consideration to Dick Smith’s concern that Rossi or Defkalion or both may be frauds?

    Al sensible and fair questions are rare.
    I will never agree to the abuse and unfounded accusation of somebody like Smith.
    We have waited a year now and we would all have liked an answer in the first week but unfortunately life is not always so easy.
    I suppose if Rossi And Defkalion are not managing to con money out of big investors, and they certainly are not out of small investors, then they will give up.
    But in my humble opinion the evidence still shows hope.
    These next few weeks are important and like all the optimists I know, we just want the TRUTH, good or bad and abuse and denial without clear evidence is always hurtful.
    If something substantial does not come out of these Defkalion tests I think it will look very bad.

  6. Daniel

    February 23, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    I have followed this for awhile now and have noted the emotional investment people have in LENR. This is understandable because the implications of such a discovery solve a number of dilemmas in our world.

    I haven’t known as many engineers as many of you have but I have known quite a few Con-artists from my days as an investigator. Rossi I am sorry to say is textbook. He dangles the prize but only gives you enough information to get through the next day.

    I encourage all of you to step back from “what could be” and ask does Rossi’s business plans make sense?

    I think you will find that they do not. If this technology was in fact real every billionaire on planet earth would go all in. They haven’t. Every “Energy Company” would go all in. They haven’t.

    If you were a con artist however, you would find some bureaucratic excuse to explain your lack of progress. He has. He can’t get the patents. I wonder if any reporter has asked if Rossi has even filed the paperwork and if he has, is it the system that is causing the hold up or is it Rossi.

    • Lu

      February 23, 2012 at 5:36 pm

      Most people on this blog agree with you here. The odds of a revolutionary new technology are very slim. On top of that there are many things about Rossi and Defkalion have heightened suspicions. Your post is a good summary but we’ve heard or know of all of this.

      That said only a few of those on this blog are arrogant enough (the Dick and Doug Show comes to mind) to proclaim with absolute certainty that this claim is fake or real. One thing for certain, it is interesting, informative, and amusing. I have learned a lot of about science and technology and have some hope, not unlike buying a lottery ticket–although this has only cost me time, that there is some truth to all of this.

      • Peter Roe

        February 23, 2012 at 6:54 pm

        Very well said, Lu.

        Personally I find all this turning of old ground rather strange. As you say, we know all this and have endlessly discussed it, yet some of us still believe that there is a chance that a useable CF device will appear from one quarter or another, and possibly even quite soon.

        If this doesn’t happen then many blog followers will have lost some time (well quite a bit of it actually!) but received in exchange education, entertainment and hope, and will all be a little more cynical in the future. Big deal.

        I think that about covers it for those caricatured by skeptic posters as ‘true believers’. What remains inexplicable to me are the motives of those I characterised earlier as pathological skeptics, who appear to spend more time reading and posting than the ‘believers’ and also seem to spend a significant amount of time and effort digging out snippets they think will damage Rossi and DGT in particular, then repeating these ad nauseam.

        Clearly this has little or no effect on those who prefer to keep their judgment open, except perhaps to harden their resistance to everything such ‘skeptics’ say, including any valid points they might accidentally make amidst all the garbage. When a behaviour pattern fails to produce the intended result, a rational individual would change their behaviour. The fact that these people don’t says all anyone needs to know about them.

    • JNewman

      February 23, 2012 at 5:53 pm

      Daniel, you have zeroed in on the primary driving force on this blog. Many people here have an intense emotional investment in LENR and have imprinted that investment onto Rossi and Defkalion. As a result, they find themselves passionately defending AR and DGT when they really mean to be defending LENR. They also see criticism of AR and DGT as an attack on LENR itself. Anyone who questions AR and DGT is seen as an enemy of LENR.

      Many of us have pointed this out repeatedly but it does not seem to sink in. You don’t have to reject LENR to doubt Rossi and DGT and you don’t have to accept Rossi and DGT in order to accept the validity of LENR.

      But that is just my opinion and I am one of the weakest contributors on this site.

      • Methusela

        February 23, 2012 at 5:56 pm

        You’ll never forgive George for that one eh?

        • JNewman

          February 23, 2012 at 5:58 pm

          You have no idea how much pain it caused.

      • georgehants

        February 23, 2012 at 6:05 pm

        JNewman a fair argument If I make some points regarding it, will you answer openly and fairly.
        Thank you.

        • JNewman

          February 23, 2012 at 6:14 pm

          I am always willing to openly and fairly answer questions if the questions themselves are fair.

          As always, I will not respond to loaded questions.


          Fair question: Do I think that fellow is guilty?

          Loaded question: Do I think that murdering psychopath is guilty?

          If you can see the distinction, then fire away. If not, please don’t waste my time.

          • georgehants

            February 23, 2012 at 6:19 pm

            JNewman, well done you can detect weak and distorted arguments, that is Good, join the club.
            Do you agree ——
            Cold Fusion is proven beyond dispute by any fair Analyses of the evidence.
            Do you agree that the attacks on P&F could have delayed Cold Fusion.
            Please short answers.

          • JNewman

            February 23, 2012 at 6:30 pm

            question 2: Do I agree that the attacks on P&F could have delayed Cold Fusion?

            Sure, assuming I know what you mean by ‘delayed Cold Fusion”.

            question 1: Cold Fusion is proven beyond dispute…

            I don’t want to dodge your question, but I’m afraid you will have to be more explicit. I will put forth a version of your question and answer it, but it may not be what you are asking, so you may have to explain.

            Do I agree that the body of the work in CF shows that there are real physical phenomena taking place that aren’t complained by accepted physics and chemistry theories?


      • Mahron - A4 B2

        February 23, 2012 at 6:12 pm

        And if I want to question LENR I can do that to. I do what I want. Like the fact that MIT recently did something normally physically impossible and it does not seem to intrigue much of the world. Why ? I don’t know. And if I want to repeat it multiple time I can do that to. Watch me.

        MIT recently did something normally physically impossible and it does not seem to intrigue much of the world. Why ?

        • georgehants

          February 23, 2012 at 6:21 pm

          Mahron – A4 B2, sounds good link please if possible.

          • Ivy Matt

            February 23, 2012 at 6:53 pm

            I suspect he’s referring to Mitchell Swartz’s demonstration held as part of the week-long extracurricular course taught by Prof. Haglestein.

        • un passante

          February 23, 2012 at 7:29 pm

          Because it’s heresy! Can’t be, the Science Bible tells us that it simply can’t be.

          You all heretics should die in a fire! Praised be the crusaders who watch upon us and try to save us from sin and devil’s temptation by flooding this blog with utter boredom.

      • Peter Roe

        February 23, 2012 at 7:21 pm

        I’m not sure that anyone here has a particularly intense attachment to LENR per se, any more than they might be attached to any other abstract phenomenon (I suppose someone could become emotionally attached to, say, magnetic induction or the venturi effect, but that would be a little… unusual).

        What people are investing in is simply the possibility that the world might change significantly for the better, IF Rossi or DGT come through with useable devices – nothing more complicated or ‘psychological’ than that.

        The polarisation of views and increasing resistance to almost anything stated by known ‘skeptics’ arises from the dishonest tactics used by many skeptics, and the manner in which many of them present their arguments. This is frequently perceived as snidey, aggressive or superior, and is certainly highly repetitive, none of which seems designed to persuade, only to annoy.

        The increasing tendency of skeptics to claim that they believe in or support LENR but ‘know’ that Rossi and DGT are ‘scammers’ is also becoming rather irritating. It appears to be just another cover for behaviour that is virtually inexplicable. The rational response to encountering a load of whackos spouting nonsense is to walk away, so it is extremely difficult to discern why so many extreme skeptics, who claim to regard the majority of posters as wide-eyed irrationals, continue to expend so much time and effort posting here.

        • JNewman

          February 23, 2012 at 7:48 pm

          I am emotionally attached to the Coreolis Effect, if you really want to know.

          • Ghost Dawg

            February 24, 2012 at 1:24 am

            On a merry-go-round in the night
            Coriolis was shaken with fright
            Despite how he walked
            ‘Twas like he was stalked
            By some fiend always pushing him right

        • JNewman

          February 23, 2012 at 7:58 pm

          Peter, apart from noting that “snide, aggressive or superior” and repetitive arguments are by no means limited to or even primarily used by skeptics, why do you expend so much energy in questioning the presence of people who don’t share your views? This whole business is fascinating and at least has some elements that distinguish it from the ‘load of whackos spouting nonsense” that you speak of (e.g PESWiki). As a result, there are people here of all stripes and, as far as I understand the purpose of this site, all are welcome. It is not difficult to ignore the posts of people who annoy you, so why not just do so and stop being repetitive yourself about how annoying the skeptics are. And yes, if that means you will henceforth ignore my posts, so be it.

          • Peter Roe

            February 23, 2012 at 8:40 pm

            JNewman – “if that means you will henceforth ignore my posts, so be it”

            No, I’m interested in what you have to say. You argue rationally and with clarity, and IMHO only exhibit a relatively few mild symptoms of the pseudoskeptic behaviour you listed earlier!

            Actually, the whackos I was referring to are the caricatured ‘true believers’ on this blog (including myself) as portrayed by some of the more aggressive ‘pathoskeps’.

            In answer to your question, assuming it wasn’t rhetorical, I question deeply the motives of certain individuals who post here with great frequency. I believe they are involved in a campaign of deliberate misinformation for reasons that are unclear, and feel that some counterbalance is occasionally necessary. Fortunately for all concerned I get bored with doing this quite easily, and let them rant on unchallenged.

            I will attempt to take your advice and simply stop reading when I see certain IDs.

            P.S. I admire your admisssion of your attachment to the Coreolis Effect. Few would be so brave.

    • Honor Super Omina

      February 23, 2012 at 6:16 pm

      I respectfully disagree with you Daniel. Big Oil, Big Coal and others have far too much to gain by not doing everything humanly possible to suppress this possible technology. That’s not conspiracy…it’s just business. The system is rigged against the little guy.

    • un passante

      February 23, 2012 at 7:06 pm

      you Daniel are a gift from heaven! There’s here a billionaire, eager to give his money away, who is looking for an investigator.

      you could join the forces, you investigate and find actual evidences and he will reward you.
      Think about it, you could save the world from LENR!

    • daniel maris

      February 23, 2012 at 7:53 pm

      So you are saying that NASA have lied and also fooled the US patent office?

  7. georgehants

    February 23, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    I think number six will be denied by U of B if untrue.
    Andrea Rossi
    February 23rd, 2012 at 11:21 AM
    Dear Redazione
    1- no radiations have been detected outside the E-Cats in thousand hours of operation
    2- we will disclose the theory regarding the physics of the E-Cat after the product will be in the market: as you know, we will put it in the market at a price that will make useless any reverse engineering.
    3- we made repeatedly tests
    4- we are working also on the electric power production
    5- NASA is not in contact with us
    6- About the university of Bologna I am under NDA, as well as they are.
    7- I do not think the E-Cats can produce new matirials. They can only produce thermal energy.
    8- The E-Cat will be sold at a price between 500 and 900 US$.
    Warm Regards,

    • JNewman

      February 23, 2012 at 6:10 pm

      We indeed shall all await the availability of evidence and bonafide facts in this whole affair. One way or another, they will come forth.

      But I will make the following prediction regarding point 3 above: if Rossi is successful in manufacturing ecats and selling them in mass volume at a low price, somebody else will figure out how start selling them cheaper. The idea that he and his people have more expertise in cost-effective volume manufacturing than anyone else in the world is hubris of an extraordinary degree – in my opinion.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        February 23, 2012 at 6:17 pm

        Maybe hubris, or perhaps just his battle cry in the game of business. If his main goal is proliferation of the technology (rather than gather money together) then it doesn’t matter if someone else ultimately outcompetes him in price.

      • Mahron - A4 B2

        February 23, 2012 at 6:17 pm

        And I will repeat one more time. If it is real there will be only two factories (at best) producing it by the time the worlds gets its real, giving him at least a year of quasi monopoly. Not bad.

      • Lu

        February 23, 2012 at 6:23 pm

        I also question whether Rossi will be able to create a small consumer level system capable of producing electricity from heat that is anywhere near 30% efficient.

        My research has shown that many have tried to do this for a long time but it only works at a large scale (turbines, i.e. jet engines) and is not suitable for residential usage. Many people have systems they are promoting but they are all prototypes and not anywhere close to commercial sale. If Rossi indeed does this it would be almost as big an invention as the E-Cat itself, IMO

        • Pekka Janhunen

          February 23, 2012 at 6:30 pm

          I agree. How to make it quiet enough for home is, I guess, one of the issues, besides efficiency.

          • Peter Roe

            February 23, 2012 at 7:34 pm

            A low pressure reciprocating engine with a reasonably large swept volume would tend to be quiet, as would a rubber belt drive to a large-radius generator (i.e., low speed). The power unit might be something like a single expansion steam engine with slide valves – perhaps manufactured from plastics, except for the flywheel.

            As it would require condensation apparatus though such a unit would of necessity be relatively large – not something you could easily hang on the kitchen wall!

          • Peter Roe

            February 23, 2012 at 7:35 pm

            Thing about it, it would be more efficient to combine the flywheel and generator, so no drive band needed.

          • Quax

            February 23, 2012 at 7:42 pm

            Actually that the least problem, my parents have a combined heating and power unit similar to this one in their basement:


            Works perfectly quiet.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            February 23, 2012 at 7:48 pm

            quax: thanks for the info (peter too)

          • Peter Roe

            February 23, 2012 at 7:53 pm

            If you have a basement that’s great, but most people would probably have to accommodate the unit under the stairs or in the roof space. Either would require it to be VERY quiet, especially at night (perhaps batteries could be used to avoid night time operation).

          • Pekka Janhunen

            February 23, 2012 at 7:55 pm

            Future of electric power companies might depend on such seemingly trivial matters…

          • Lu

            February 23, 2012 at 8:08 pm


            “A combined heat and power unit (CHP) that runs on cold-pressed canola oil (that you could even eat), 4of4 with acoustic insulation removed”

            Runs on fuel, not unlike a generator and uses waste heat for heating. Show me something that is quiet, efficient (25%+), and runs on heat.

            My NG costs me about $.035/kWh. My electricity averages $.17/kWh with top tier at about $.31/kWh. If I can find something that generates in house electricity from the NG at a reasonable efficiency I would do it. Even Rossi’s COP of 6 will not be worth me converting. Defkalion at a COP of 25+ would, *IF* there is such a machine…

          • Peter Roe

            February 23, 2012 at 8:13 pm

            True, but I think that given the ostensible savings people would be prepared to put up with some modest inconvenience. Perhaps an alternative would be a weatherproof enclosure that could simply be sited somewhere in the garden adjacent to the house (a problem for apartment-dwellers of course).

          • Peter Roe

            February 23, 2012 at 8:15 pm

            The above is a reply to Pekka. I’m reliably informed that the edit function will be restored at some point.

          • GreenWin

            February 23, 2012 at 9:40 pm

            Pekka, several manufacturers have been working on this a while. Honda is good with quieting combustion engines and partner Vaillent build heating and cooling systems.



            One approach is to convert heat via a free piston engine that uses Sterling expansion to move a piston magnet.

    • Ivy Matt

      February 23, 2012 at 6:57 pm

      7- I do not think the E-Cats can produce new matirials. They can only produce thermal energy.

      Wait, what?

      • Pekka Janhunen

        February 23, 2012 at 7:08 pm

        I guess he means that transmutation is too weak to be useful commercially.

        • Stephen T.

          February 24, 2012 at 2:00 am

          Yes, he has said very low quantities. Not significant.

    • John Milstone

      February 23, 2012 at 7:01 pm

      Rossi has already lied about his relationship with UniBo once.

      How many times does he get to make the same lie before he stops getting the benefit of the doubt?

      • Peter Roe

        February 23, 2012 at 7:38 pm

        How many times do you need to repeat this before you realise that no-one is listening to you any more?

        • John Milstone

          February 23, 2012 at 7:42 pm

          Thanks for making the point that the “True Believers” ignore the facts.

          • daniel maris

            February 23, 2012 at 7:56 pm

            No, people read the statements of UniBo not yours or Krivit’s interpretation of them.

          • Peter Roe

            February 23, 2012 at 7:58 pm

            They’ve heard them, they’ve taken them on board. What purpose is served by repeating the same things endlessly? It’s not healthy – go out and get some air.

          • John Milstone

            February 23, 2012 at 8:57 pm

            AFAIK, this Rossi statement that he has a NDA with UniBo is a new claim.

            I see no reason to give it any more credibility than his earlier lies.

          • Methusela

            February 23, 2012 at 8:58 pm

            Ask unibo?

          • John Milstone

            February 23, 2012 at 9:12 pm

            UniBo = University of Bologna

          • Methusela

            February 23, 2012 at 9:19 pm

            Sorry, I meant contact UniBo – was using a touchscreen, and being lazy. Presumably, they’ll say they can’t talk about it?

          • John Milstone

            February 23, 2012 at 10:05 pm

            I doubt that UniBo required any NDA, so if there is one, it was Rossi’s idea. I would expect them to honor any such agreement.

            Of course, Rossi could just be making it up.

            I do recall that after UniBo denied Rossi’s claims, Rossi then claimed that he was working with “secret” Universities. I’m not sure what these “secret” Universities could give Rossi that UniBo couldn’t, other than making it impossible to catch Rossi in another lie.

        • Thicket

          February 23, 2012 at 9:15 pm


          Instead of complaining about the repetitiveness of skeptics, you might try not being so repetetive yourself. You have many posts complaining about repetitiveness. It gets really tiresome and… ummmmm… repetitive.

          • Peter Roe

            February 23, 2012 at 9:49 pm

            Point taken – I’ll give it a rest now. 🙂

  8. RonB

    February 23, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    Can anyone really believe that Professor Sergio Focardi is a scam artist? Do you think that Rossi has duped him into thinking that their process was really giving a COP of 20 or more?? That just seems unlikely in the extreme.

    There was once a man from Bologna
    of the energy scene says “I own ya”
    his secret it seems
    was the source of his steam
    and that was his indomitable persona

    One more day!! WooHooo! *crossing fingers*

    • Thicket

      February 23, 2012 at 9:12 pm

      I don’t think Focardi is a scam artist. I’m not sure why that question keeps getting asked. I’ve not read even one single skeptic thinking that Focardi is in on any kind of fraud.

      I do think he was duped. All successful pseudoscience scams I’ve seen have either duped scientists or claims of specific scientist support that were lies.

      • RonB

        February 23, 2012 at 10:18 pm

        That’s the only thing I can come up with (is that he was duped) but that would mean that he’s been duped for a year or more. That seems harder to believe than Rossi’s claim. lol

        I wonder what ever happened to the API reporter that was at the Oct test. I am pretty sure that was really the reporter in the picture. It seems ominous that after all this time there’s not a peep out of them.

    • John Milstone

      February 23, 2012 at 10:12 pm

      I’m not sure what to think about Focardi.

      On the one hand, I’ve heard several comments that suggest he wasn’t all that closely involved with the details of Rossi’s work.

      On the other hand, I could see how someone who devoted their career to what could be seen as a dead-end might drive someone to fraud, either for money or prestige, especially if it were being “sold” by someone with Rossi’s personality.

      And, of course, it’s possible that this is legit.

      Trouble is, based on everything I’ve read, it’s easier to believe that Focardi has become a con artist than it is to believe that Rossi has become an honest, once-in-a-generation genius.

  9. Pekka Janhunen

    February 23, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    By the way about Rossi’s assumed factory which can produce one million 10 kW home units per year. It’s about 3000 per day or two units per minute. In terms of logistics it’s about two truckloads per day. Such factory need not be huge.

    • daniel maris

      February 23, 2012 at 8:00 pm

      I agree. I’ve made that point myself. Also, he doesn’t have to complete all the lines simultaneously. He can start with one or two production lines and make sure they are working right. No one is going to quibble if he only makes 200,000 in the first year! Also he doesn’t have to build the factory from scratch as there will be many abandoned factories in the USA formerly used for white goods assembly that will be perfect for the E cat.

  10. georgehants

    February 23, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    JNewman, sounds good, finish today, maybe we can debate in future.
    Thank you.

  11. JNewman

    February 23, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    A possible explanation for why the “MIT” news hasn’t intrigued the world is that it isn’t MIT news. It is news from Cold Fusion Times, the website run by Michael Swartz and his company who are the folks who performed the feat in question. The fact that there was a dog-and-pony show on the MIT campus during their fun-and-games break in January does not wrap this story in the mantle of MIT.

    WIthout making any judgements of the validity or significance of the work, the fact is that the only information on it is directly from the people who did it. That’s not enough to intrigue the world.

    • Mahron - A4 B2

      February 23, 2012 at 7:09 pm

      That’s MIT enough for me. Anyway that place is filled with smart people looking for new an interesting stuff. Some of that just popped up right next to them. So very strange.

      • un passante

        February 23, 2012 at 8:22 pm

        a radio broadcast (radio 24) in Italy interviewed MIT professor P. Hagelstein on that. I could give you the link but Hagelstein’s voice is covered by the translator’s voice.

        Radio24 is a radio broadcaster linked to IlSole24ore the main financial newspaper in Italy.

        Hagelstein is hugely optimist on LENR development. He sees the 1st generation of working devices coming soon. next year.

        If AB is so kind to put here a recap of what he said that would be good. it’s interesting stuff. my english is not good enough.

        • Mahron - A4 B2

          February 23, 2012 at 8:47 pm

          Yes that would be nice. Do you remember if he was he talking about rossi or other people he knows that are working on those devices ?

          • un passante

            February 23, 2012 at 9:43 pm

            yes, he was asked about Rossi and he gave a long answer.

    • Peter Roe

      February 23, 2012 at 7:41 pm

      “dog-and-pony show” is (TM) milstone mary and you are in violation of copyright.

      • John Milstone

        February 23, 2012 at 7:46 pm

        Wow! What an insightful comment! I can’t possibly compete against such a massive display of brain power.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          February 23, 2012 at 7:49 pm


        • Pekka Janhunen

          February 23, 2012 at 7:57 pm

          I meant that perhaps dog and pony show is mainly U.S. saying

          • JNewman

            February 23, 2012 at 8:01 pm

            Yes it is. And it is nothing negative. In the business world it means showing off your goods for the customers or public in a captivating way and is distinct from a laboratory test, for example.

          • Peter Roe

            February 23, 2012 at 8:04 pm

            Yes its not an expression that is used in the UK. It was probably out of fashion in the US before Hody (as ‘mary yugo’) began plastering it all over the internet.

          • Thicket

            February 23, 2012 at 9:04 pm

            ‘Dog and pony show’ is a very common North American expression. I’ve often heard it used over the last fifty years. I regularly use the expression myself.

            It was funny when someone was labelled as being MaryYugo for using the expression. It probably came from a Brit who was unfamiliar with the expression.

          • JNewman

            February 23, 2012 at 9:43 pm

            Thicket, this is just another manifestation of the astounding powers of Mary Yugo, who by virtue of sheer orneriness has personally mastered the superposition principle on a macroscopic scale and can actually be everywhere at once.

          • un passante

            February 23, 2012 at 9:52 pm

            the “Being MaryYugo” effect


          • Methusela

            February 23, 2012 at 9:52 pm

            Yes, you, Mary, and JNewman do seem to be macroscopically entangled.

            No synchronous change of spin yet, though 🙂

          • Peter Roe

            February 23, 2012 at 9:56 pm

            ‘She’ is certainly still with us here.

  12. Jami

    February 23, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    Focardi is an old man. Still sharp as a razor, from what you can make out in interviews, but old nevertheless. Maybe old age is what drives him to believe – but I rather think he just isn’t that involved. Rossi just keeps him around for decoration and probably feeds him what he wants to hear. Seeing a working LENR device in his lifetime is something he probably had written off long ago – and now there is this guy telling him he cracked it, based on his (Focardi’s) life’s work. Maybe when you’re past 80 those things matter more than plain common sense.
    But no matter. He, just as everybody else, should be able to see that Rossi’s demos were all faked and its got nothing to do with “LENR or not LENR”. It would even be obvious if he’d claimed he used propane gas rather than fusion.

    • C M Edwards

      February 23, 2012 at 7:16 pm

      You must have better eyes than I do.

    • AB

      February 23, 2012 at 7:41 pm

      I think there is some truth in what you say, Focardi is probably not essential at this point and hardly participates in the current e-cat development.

      However I know of two interviews with Focardi in which he says that he frequently was the one taking measurements during early e-cat prototype tests. He saw gammas coming out of Rossi’s prototypes.

    • RonB

      February 23, 2012 at 7:56 pm

      I hate to think that Focardi would leave the kind of legacy (being part of a giant fraud).
      It could be that he had seen some minor heat generation (very low COP) in the process and then Rossi took that and ran with it, claiming to have added some secret sauce that would give it tenfold increases in COP. (which he may well have done)

      Yes, In the TedX Talk that Focardi gave, he said he read an increase in background radiation when the unit was operating. To me this speaks volumes. I really don’t think he’s a liar at all.

    • daniel maris

      February 23, 2012 at 8:02 pm

      Jami –

      You sound like a true believer in something.

      You’re discounting the NASA patent? That’s all a load of tosh is it?

      • Pekka Janhunen

        February 23, 2012 at 8:11 pm

        Perhaps this feels odd, but to be honest I have more trust in Rossi than in the mentioned Zawodny patent.

        • daniel maris

          February 23, 2012 at 8:25 pm

          So what’s going on at DGT – does anyone know? NO announcement yet… have they been found out or are they waiting for Dick Smith and the Sceptic Crew to make fools of themselves by calling it a fail – before they go on to make the tests…

          Has anyone had any response to any inquiries?

          • Pekka Janhunen

            February 23, 2012 at 8:27 pm

            If I remember correctly the previous time (perhaps November) they were also late by one day or so.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            February 23, 2012 at 8:28 pm

            Even if DGT folks have been there like boy scouts, the tester team might have had some travel problems or whatever.

        • Quax

          February 23, 2012 at 10:10 pm

          No offense – but that is odd.

      • Jami

        February 23, 2012 at 8:27 pm

        What’s that got got to do with Rossi? If I tell you I shot a pig to the moon yesterday and it got there in 20 minutes, orbited a couple of times, landed smoothly and brought some stones back – would you doubt me? Surely. Even if I’d reply “You’re discounting the Apollo missions? That’s all a load of tosh is it?”

        • un passante

          February 23, 2012 at 8:34 pm

          because the ingredients of NASA LENR are roughly the same of Rossi’s?

          • Jami

            February 23, 2012 at 8:36 pm

            Same with my pig. I used a rocket – and it wore a spacesuit.

          • un passante

            February 23, 2012 at 9:02 pm

            you are all Maryyugo to me. do you remember “being John Malcovitch”? a lot of maryyugo clones crowding the place and repeating the same things.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          February 23, 2012 at 9:05 pm

          But, from the physics point of view, fusion is inhibited by Gamow factors G=exp(-S) where S is proportional to Coulomb barrier width times hight. Usually G is very small, like 1e-60 or whatever, so fusion is practically nonexistent (below measurement threshold). But if (because of some change in solid matter microphysics etc) S gets divided by some modest factor, let’s say 3, G increases by 40 orders of magnitude and becomes non-tiny enough that instead of practical zero we might suddenly get Rossi’s claimed output level. From the theory point of view, a nanowatt of CF power is almost as difficult to explain as a megawatt. Neither case has a generally accepted theory, but for the low power case there is good experimental evidence so the high power version could be possible too. In this sense the situation is qualitatively different from pigs in space.

          • Jami

            February 23, 2012 at 9:24 pm

            Personally I don’t care about LENR. Maybe it’s possible, maybe it isn’t. I look at Rossi’s demos from an engineering point of view. Constant pump rates, smoothly rising temperatures, easily crossing the boiling point, a kind of small chimney as the only outlet, supposedly only dry steam flowing very slowly through a long rubber hose, supposedly at exactly the rate its pumped in – and all that with almost unbelievably stable tempertaures at the measurement point. Doesn’t add up. Even if you had a very granular and quickly reacting power source (and again – I don’t care what it is), good sensors and a really sophisticated control algorithm, it’d be quite a challenge to build and a completely pointless effort as a demonstration for something that is supposed to simply produce heat.
            I’m with Krivit on this one (whatever one may think of him otherwise). Rossi is simply pumping water through an electrically driven boiler.

          • Mahron - A4 B2

            February 23, 2012 at 9:29 pm

            I see you are here to make friends Jami.

          • Veblin

            February 23, 2012 at 9:33 pm

            I knew we needed a physicist. Thanks, that made a lot of sense.

            As a Muppets fan I also do enjoy “Pigs in Space”.

          • C M Edwards 9%

            February 23, 2012 at 9:44 pm

            Good point, Pekka.

          • Quax

            February 23, 2012 at 10:20 pm

            IMHO the physics of what is going on still very much eludes us. The reason why I like the Widom-Larsen idea is that they propose a mechanism that’ll give electrons a larger effective mass. But then I part way with their idea and wonder if such a larger effective mass couldn’t catalyze fusion like the heavy weight closest relatives of electrons i.e. muons are know to do.


          • Pekka Janhunen

            February 24, 2012 at 7:25 am

            quax: I agree with your comment.

            Concerning original WLT, it predicts that if an ultracold neutron is put into room temperature metal, it would nearly always react inelastically and get absorbed. However that cannot be the case because the elastic neutron-nucleus cross section doesn’t vanish for any energy and is in fact typically much larger than the inelastic one. Instead of vanishing a cold neutron would often become thermalised, escape and be detected. –Its reliance on WLT was, by the way, the reason for my doubts on Zawodny’s patent text.

    • Ransompw

      February 23, 2012 at 10:09 pm

      Ok, so how did he fake it?

  13. C M Edwards

    February 23, 2012 at 8:19 pm

    Well, in the past year, we’ve had 31 days with publicly announced LENR demos, or roughly 9% of the year.

    2% Rossi, 7% Swartz, 0.000% Dick Smith, and << 100%.

    I'm hopeful to see another 1% from DGT by the end of the month. I'm not holding my breath for 100%, but I'm hopeful.

    • C M Edwards 9%

      February 23, 2012 at 8:27 pm

      I suppose that makes me 9% certain…

  14. Quax

    February 23, 2012 at 10:03 pm


    the link to the CHP machine was simply to illustrate that compact power generators can be build very compact and so that they run quietly.

    The machine pictured using Canola oil will be essentially a Diesel engine hooked up to a generator. If you can get a Diesel engine silent enough than a Sterling one won’t be hard at all.

    The one that my parents are using actually runs on NG. The latter is pretty cheap and as they live in Germany this kind of alternative energy scheme is actually subsidized.

    You need to have a large house or other heat sink otherwise its nor really economical. My parents use the heat in the winter for the house and in the summer to heat their pool.

    If you want to learn more I can try to find out about the manufacturer.

    • GreenWin

      February 23, 2012 at 10:15 pm

      Honda is good with quieting combustion engines and partner Vaillent build heating and cooling systems.

      Germany is a leader. UK has mandated 1M CHP home systems by 2020. Another approach is to convert heat via a free piston engine to move a perm magnet.

    • Lu

      February 24, 2012 at 6:32 am

      Thanks. GreenWin also has some good suggestions although availability is Germany right now (I’m US) which I’m going to look into. Honda is a good company. If you do happen upon the manufacturer post it somewhere. I’m as interested in the technology as in applying it to my home.

      I’ve looked into Sterling engines but the ones I found always seem to me to have too many moving parts or are just toys and nothing really available for the consumer. I did hear they once built a car engine based on it.

    • Lu

      February 24, 2012 at 7:04 am

      Well it’s also economical if the price of electricity is much higher than NG. This is supposed to be 26.3% efficient so it actually works for the higher tiers electrical costs ($.31kWh elec. vs $.035 kWh NG) plus you get some heat to boot. Honda Generators from what I’ve heard are much quieter than others.

      I’m also looking into Solar and this could be used in conjunction with that system with some of the costs (inverters) shared.

      I’ll look into this some more…

  15. GreenWin

    February 23, 2012 at 10:11 pm

    Wow. Look at all these comments! Seems like the Greek tests have stirred the entire MYugo army to action.

    Unfortunately it’s a bit like watching ants circling the drain. The water’s too warm and the waves too big.

    Here’s a nice reprint of Mills’ work. His CIHT technology will be the first non-combustion produced energy from LANR.,404/275.html

    Go git em Randy!

  16. John Milstone

    February 23, 2012 at 10:17 pm

    From the linked article:

    A working model is promised for 2011.

    And that working model is where?

    • RonB

      February 23, 2012 at 10:21 pm

      Ummm …. in a tire shop just out of town?

    • GreenWin

      February 24, 2012 at 12:10 am

      Italy and Greece?? NO!!

    • GreenWin

      February 24, 2012 at 12:13 am

      Same place as Dick’s $1M for a birth control;)

  17. AB

    February 23, 2012 at 10:21 pm

    [long introduction summing up the recent MIT demo and the Rossi story]

    Melis: So what do you think about this?

    Hagelstein: In the literature, the first experiments with a Ni-H system were made in the 90’s by the Piantelli group, of which Focardi was part of. Their papers were very interesting and taught us much about the phenomenon. From reading their papers I have come to the conclusion that we’re talking about a phenomenon that’s very similar to D/Pd reactions. Everything suggests this: the way the experiments responds to stimulation, the behavior of the system, etc. Personally I’m convinced that high energy gains were first obtained by the Piantelli group at that time. As for Rossi, we’re talking about a technology which is of enormous economical value but at the same time very difficult to patent. The result is that Rossi and his colleagues have never given precise information as to what’s inside the e-cat. We do not have reliable reports of the tests that have been conducted either. So in practice we do not have technical information that would allow us to assess the device.

    Melis: And what do you think of Rossi?

    Hagelstein: I believe that the e-cat is derived from Piantelli’s device. If true then we roughly know what it is. My theories that were developed for D/Pd systems also seem to predict the effects that can be observed in in Ni-H systems. From my point of view, in D/Pd systems it is the deuterium atoms that are fused and create helium, whereas in Ni-H experiments it is hydrogen and deuterium that are fused and create helium-3. The difference between the two is that in the second process, the nickel takes part in the reaction and disintegrates. The end result is that nickel is consumed whereas this doesn’t happen with the palladium. I also believe that it’s possible to control the reaction so that this doesn’t happen, that the nickel is preserved, which results in a cleaner and more efficient reaction.

    Melis: Do you believe that we’re going towards a time in which, first, it will finally be established that cold fusion is a real phenomenon, and that, second, it will be possible to use it on an industrial scale for energy production?

    Hagelstein: I have been convinced for many years that this phenomenon is of extreme importance and that most likely it will bring us new technology to produce energy. My hope is that with the diffusion of these first experiments it will become clear, even this year, that there is a new frontier of great interest in front of us. Personally I’m very optimistic, from what I know the Piantelli group has also received funds to build a commercial device. It is a very exciting time.

    Melis: how long do you think will it take to see the first practical applications for cold fusion? Are we talking about months, years or decades?

    Hagelstein: there are several groups around the world that have declared to have developed the technology enough to allow for the first industrial applications. Certainly these devices will have to face the issue of safety, like any other commercial device. All the necessary tests will have to be made to ensure that there is no harmful radiation, that the small hydrogen tank doesn’t explode. So it’s about making sure that these devices conform to the regulations. This may take some time, but I don’t see why next year there couldn’t be the first cold fusion devices on the market. We are of course talking about the first generation of these devices, but I think we’ll even see them in homes producing heat and electrical energy for all our benefit.

    • AB

      February 23, 2012 at 10:22 pm

      Dang, no edit function… this is from the Italian interview to Hagelstein that was aired recently.

      • Methusela

        February 23, 2012 at 10:47 pm

        Thanks for this, very informative – is “Ni-H experiments it is hydrogen and deuterium that are fused and create helium-3” correct?

      • un passante

        February 23, 2012 at 10:53 pm

        nooo, l’hai fatto! sei un/una grande. io mi stavo sentendo in colpa solo al pensiero di sentissi in dovere di farlo. spero di non averti costretto! 🙂

      • daniel maris

        February 24, 2012 at 12:55 am

        Thanks AB for another v. informative post.

    • Mahron - A4 B2

      February 23, 2012 at 10:47 pm

      Thanks man ! Great work.

    • GreenWin

      February 24, 2012 at 12:19 am

      Hang on now. Couldn’t Hagelstein be a part of the Rossi/Focardi/Piantelli/Levi/etc. conspiracy to destroy old fashioned fossil fuel use??

      I think we should see a notarized copy of his statements and the NDA he refused to sign.

    • Ghost Dawg

      February 24, 2012 at 2:12 am

      Thanks AB. Great Job

  18. Jami

    February 23, 2012 at 11:17 pm

    “Ok, so how did he fake it?”

    We can only guess, of course. Hardest to fake would be the rapid power increase just at the onset of boiling. There’s a pump happily dumping in water at a constant rate, so a sudden increase is required at the right time and exactly the right magnitude to keep up with the water flow. I don’t buy the theory of rewired power cables as the primary explanation, because even with basically unlimited power, the regulation would be too much of a hassle. So my guess is that he uses the input power for show (produce some steam) and fakes everything else. Writing four lines of script to feed a string of numbers to a spreadsheet is far easier than fumbling around with hidden wires, misplaced thermocouples and pressure regulators. So that would be my bet – software plus some heat for show.

    • Ransompw

      February 23, 2012 at 11:38 pm

      Please see Lewan’s second test. Your anaysis fails. The quantity of water run through the ecat was carefully measured as was the input energy (according to Lewan), but over half of the water disappeared after running through 3 meters of hose and into a bucket of water.

      Sorry, please explain this result given your theory.

    • daniel maris

      February 24, 2012 at 12:57 am

      And he fooled Focardi in this way every time when they were working on prototypes?

      • RonB

        February 24, 2012 at 1:05 am

        I agree.. that seems like a stretch to me.

        I was impressed by the TEDx talk that Forcardi did. I love those TED talks and am a TED member myself.

        • daniel maris

          February 24, 2012 at 1:30 am

          Conspiracists will note that Focardi’s speech seems to have been wiped from the website completely. His name does not even come up on a search or in the index on science. Has TED had the Zawodny treatment? 🙂

          • LCD

            February 24, 2012 at 2:38 am

            Ted or tedx

    • LCD

      February 24, 2012 at 2:23 am

      And that’s why a bare reactor test is a great test.

  19. RonB

    February 24, 2012 at 1:39 am

    I just went to youtube and typed focardi tedx and it was first on the list.
    Make sure you hit the CC button on the player to have an English translation unless you speak Italian (of course)

    • Stephen T.

      February 24, 2012 at 2:35 am

      That’s the first time I have seen it with the captions on. Thanks for posting that. Very interesting talk. Bravo, Professor Focardi, bravo.

  20. GreenWin

    February 24, 2012 at 2:55 am

    “Personally I’m very optimistic, from what I know the Piantelli group has also received funds to build a commercial device. It is a very exciting time.”

    Professor Peter L. Hagelstein is a principal investigator in the Research Laboratory of Electronics (RLE) at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). He received the B.S. and the M.S. in 1976, and the Ph.D. in electrical engineering in 1981, from MIT. He was a staff member of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory from 1981 to 1985 before joining the MIT faculty in the Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science in 1986.

    I am adding Prof Hagelstein to the heretical band of Italian scientists including Focardi, Stremmenos, Levi, Piantelli, Celani, Bianchini,etc.

    These people along with Andrea Rossi are part of a worldwide conspiracy to make the world a better place. Someone must put an end to it! Trolls, please help??

    • Stephen T.

      February 24, 2012 at 3:10 am

      GreenWin, Hagelstein is certainly the real deal. I read an account recently about his career and I can’t find it right now but the part I remember is that his early career was very well funded and he did well. Now, and for many years, since his involvement in cold fusion his fortunes have waned. In other words the man has sacrificed much as so many have as a result of working in this field. I’ll look for the source.

      • Stephen T.

        February 24, 2012 at 3:35 am

        I found the source re: Professor Hagelstein. It is an article in the Washington Post Magazine, 2004 by Weinberger, S., Warming Up to Cold Fusion. It is a very enjoyable read. I hope some of you may enjoy it. (Access via

        • GreenWin

          February 24, 2012 at 4:46 am


          thanks for this! Very educational!! I found THIS particular paragraph highly illuminating:

          The Department of Energy went to great lengths to cloak the meeting from public view. No announcement, no reporters. None of the names of the people attending that day was disclosed. The DOE made sure to inform the panel’s members that they were to provide their conclusions individually rather than as a group, which under a loophole in federal law allowed the agency to close the meeting to the public.”

          You might think the DOE has been trying to hide scientific knowledge that could most help mankind. What kind of people would do that? Certainly not human itarians! And they’re employees of the PEOPLE of the United States??

  21. LCD

    February 24, 2012 at 3:01 am

    Gosh watching that Tedex video of focardi I do not get the feeling that he is being Fooled at all.

    Consistently measuring gamma rays slightly above background in accordance with what celani says.

    • Stephen T.

      February 24, 2012 at 3:14 am

      I agree LCD, and those early versions on the 55 gal drums are the ones I have seen referred to as having “provided heat to a factory”. I suppose working around them in the winter months may have been quite amazing “first principle” evidence of excess heat production.

    • Stephen T.

      February 24, 2012 at 3:16 am

      By the way, if Dick S. wants to award the $5,000 for a photo of the factory heater you now have it to show him! lol.

      • RonB

        February 24, 2012 at 3:40 am

        LOL Stephen

        The X is for independently organized TED events

        If any of you are on the west coast USA we could organize one in say “San Fransisco” or Vegas 🙂

        • Stephen T.

          February 24, 2012 at 4:12 am

          RonB, We could, but I, for one would not have anything earth shattering to say, just duh and good night. Focardi’s presentation blows me away. The man is the real thing. 40 some years in PhD physics at a major university and now he is involved in what may be the most important development since…well, like I said, duh, and Good Night All. Beam positive thoughts toward Greece please. Who knows.

      • Dennis Moore

        February 24, 2012 at 3:57 am

        A day or two ago, I criticized the Mats Lewan ecat video. You posted the report of Lewan’s data. I wanted to thank you, it was very helpful and it changed my opinion of Mats.


        • Stephen T.

          February 24, 2012 at 4:01 am

          Thanks Dennis, I think he is a good journalist and a well educated person with good science background. I have not looked for his credentials but his manner and his work impress me too.

  22. Dick Smith

    February 24, 2012 at 4:15 am

    It’s interesting, when asked if there was any evidence that LENRs demonstrations were credible Prof Ekstrom. Deputy Head of the Nuclear Physics Division of the Dept of Physics Lund University stated

    ” No. Some cases are simply deliberate bluff, some are poor experiments and some are small effects consistent with a null effect.

    Now I do not have an science qualification so I am tempted to believe someone like him.

    Or do you think he is being paid by the oil industry to state such things?

    • Anonymous

      February 24, 2012 at 4:22 am

      I’m more interested in seeing a posting from Defkalion about the protocol for tomorrow’s test and the announcement of the name of the tester.

      They said the protocol for the test (as opposed to the general protocol in the Defkalion Jan 23rd announcement) would be provided in advance of the test.

      That would be now. If we don’t hear anything by the end of the day Greek time (about 19 hours from now), they have failed to provide promised data.

      Anybody anywhere heard anything on this???

    • Dennis Moore

      February 24, 2012 at 4:23 am

      Go to youtube and watch the Focardi TEDx talk, you can use CC for subtitles. Come back in 15 minutes and tell me what you think.

    • Stephen T.

      February 24, 2012 at 4:29 am

      Dick, there are legitimate scientists such as Eckstrom who do not currently believe that LENR is for real. Also there are those who believe something is going on but it is not useful and certainly not commercially useful. A lot has changed just since 2004 and the opinion meter swings very slowly. Sometimes “one funeral at a time” as someone famously said. The best course is to study the history as well as the recent developments. I recommend

      It is a library.

    • GreenWin

      February 24, 2012 at 4:37 am

      Hi dick,

      just wondering when you will be paying out your $1M Wilber Award for a person under 30 who gets famous for promoting birth control?

      You promised it would happen within a year of August 2010. If I have it wrong, trolls please clarify.

    • RonB

      February 24, 2012 at 6:05 am

      Did you actually read about Lund Univ.’s program?

      psst.. I wasn’t impressed.

    • LCD

      February 24, 2012 at 6:54 am

      Ask him how many LENR experiments he’s done. Then tell him to shut his trap.

      Why would you believe someone who has dug a hole so deep in negativity towards LENR that he has no way of acknowledging a LENR reactor is real even if it sat on his lap and called him momma.

    • Methusela

      February 24, 2012 at 7:14 am

      Go away.

      You are an attention seeking liar, and charlatan.

  23. dsm

    February 24, 2012 at 4:29 am

    Possibly time to move over to DGT to see what they are saying about the tests.

    I am asking myself (will go look) were there tests announce with the intent that the testers would be independent researchers and the main purpose was to prove the capability of the hyperion


    that the testers are working on behalf of potential manufacturers who are doing their own due diligence investigations.

    Am sure someone can answer this – but I was pretty sure the announcement was as per the former para ?

    Anyone know what the goal is now ?


    Doug M

  24. Dick Smith

    February 24, 2012 at 4:34 am

    No. They were only going to announce the names of the testers if these people agreed to have their names released.
    What’s the bet we are told that none of the testers agreed to have their names released.
    Then half the people on this site will accept that this is a perfectly logical answer and go on with their believing!

    Remember what I said scammers would do re any proper test result? Delay Delay Delay!

    • CuriousChris

      February 24, 2012 at 4:41 am

      They were going to release the test parameters as well, before the tests were due to run.

      If they don’t they know except for their most ardent admirers the backlash will be swift.

      Its 6:40 AM in Athens now so it will be at least 3 hours before any news. But in my opinion they have failed to pre release the test parameters. unless their intention was to do it a few minutes before testing starts.

      • Dennis Moore

        February 24, 2012 at 4:58 am

        I plan to check in at the DGT website sometime next week to see whats going on. If you want to spend the next 18 hrs. staring at your stopwatch, knock yourself out.

    • Methusela

      February 24, 2012 at 7:21 am

      I think, what I’ll do this evening, is collect all your comments (and those of your minion dsm) and e-email them and the links to Dick Smith’s press office.

      I’m concerned that your doing the real Dick Smith, and Australia, a massive disservice due to your antics here.

      You’re nothing more than a troll, and I’m getting as fed up with reading your repetitive comments as I a was typing the NDA ones.

      You are a fraud and a charlatan.

  25. Dick Smith

    February 24, 2012 at 4:42 am

    Stephen. Very strange. How come they say it’s not real?

    Most of the posters on this site say it is real – surely the majority must be correct.

    I bet Ekstrom has only spent 3 or 4 decades studying in this field – many on this site have spent hours an hours making posts and reading those of others – wouldn’t they know more?

    • Dennis Moore

      February 24, 2012 at 4:52 am

      Are you done watching the Focardi TEDx video? What did you think?

      • dsm

        February 24, 2012 at 4:54 am


        I am happy to look at it but am still at work – gimme 3 hrs & will comment


        Doug M

        • Dennis Moore

          February 24, 2012 at 5:00 am

          Work? What do you do, relabel soup cans for Dick?

          • dsm

            February 24, 2012 at 6:32 am

            The level of debate is well reflected in that informative post. 🙂


        • Peter Roe

          February 24, 2012 at 8:59 am

          It seems to me that Dennis’ question was addressed to Smith, yet you jumped in as if your opinion is awaited with baited breath. Some irritation seems natural.

          • Dennis Moore

            February 24, 2012 at 12:57 pm

            Bingo! We have a winner!

    • Stephen T.

      February 24, 2012 at 5:07 am

      Dick, It is not strange at all, it is scienc. There are two sides to this and the majority are actually on “your” side. Most of the physicists not working in the field don’t even know people are still working on it and they would probably say “pathological science” “exposed in 1989” “sad story”.
      You act like you don’t know these things. If you really don’t and you really care it would not take very long for you to read up on this. Don’t expect to get an education on the subject here. If learning is your objective please start here:
      It is a library with real information from real scientists. Really.

    • RonB

      February 24, 2012 at 5:11 am

      Mr. Smith,
      You may be right about this whole e-cat thing being a hoax. As for me, I’m still wondering about the
      actual nuclear reaction of it. Many here believe that it’s true (LENR), maybe less are firm believers in the e-cat with a COP of some big number and a robot factory and and and.. lol

      Could you do me a favor and watch the TEDx video that Focardi did. I’m curious about your take on
      his style. He doesn’t seem to have a huge ego about his accomplishments (unlike other professors I’ve ran into in my life)..

    • Stephen T.

      February 24, 2012 at 5:16 am

      Also, Ekstrom is an esteemed scientist but he DOES NOT work in this field. (science, yes, physics, yes, LENR, no) There are not many top scientists working on LENR. It is a very decimated field of study as a result of the difficulty with replication in 1989. People who work in this area are underfunded and sometimes ridiculed. Nevertheless, there are some very well respected people doing some very interesting work. Even some of the most famous of the skeptical scientists admit to that fact. In all respect, Dick you really need to do your homework if you want to be taken seriously. I for one am putting you on my “don’t bother to read list” until you show some sign of intelligent life.

      • John Milstone

        February 24, 2012 at 11:20 am

        Does that mean that only those people who have already decided that LENR is “real” (i.e. worth devoting their careers to) are qualified to decide whether LENR is real?

        • LCD

          February 24, 2012 at 3:47 pm

          No John it means that if you are going to take the opinion of a guy who has no real first hand experience with LENR, than you are probably not getting the best opinion.

  26. dsm

    February 24, 2012 at 4:49 am

    In looking for the test link at DGT I saw the original purpose of the company is still listed for potential investors/partners to read ?

    It sort of confuses the issue that they still have this up (google Defkalion GT & click on Market Strategy)

    But here is the link for those who prefer easy read (purpose of doing the google though is to see what others see when approaching the site).

    Just seems odd ?

    Doug M

    • Veblin

      February 24, 2012 at 6:22 am

      Is it odd?

      They have stated on their forum several times that they have no intention to try cover up or erase their history or previous relationship with Rossi. That is also why all the old forum messages from this time are saved in an archive.

      Besides anything that was ever on the Internet may possibly still be somewhere on the Internet.

      If they leave something on their site skeptics will wonder why.
      If they remove something on their site skeptics will wonder why.

  27. Dick Smith

    February 24, 2012 at 5:00 am


    Major announcements were made in the media and it’s also on the website that the Wilberforce Award has been extended until there is a deserving recipient.
    In the meantime the amount is compounding.
    If you know of even one deserving recipient please advise me.
    It has nothing to do with birth control. I am personally opposed to any form of “control” or coercion in relation to population.

    It’s about communicating that our present economic system that relies on perpetual growth in the use of resources and energy is not sustainable and therefore will eventually collapse.
    Just commonsense!

    • Dennis Moore

      February 24, 2012 at 5:03 am

      Go watch the video, less talking, more learning.

    • GreenWin

      February 24, 2012 at 5:16 am

      Is it fair to say dick, you did not keep your promise to award $1M dollars to a person under 30 who can impress you by becoming famous through his or her ability to show leadership in communicating an alternative to our population and consumption growth-obsessed economy – within the announced time frame??

      In your own words dick:

      “Remember what I said scammers would do re any proper test result? Delay Delay Delay!”

    • RonB

      February 24, 2012 at 5:23 am

      It’s even more dramatic than that Mr. Smith. In the next few decades, life expectancy will be extended by scores and scores of years.
      Check out
      TEDx Amsterdam 2010 – Aubrey de Grey – 11/30/10

    • Ransompw

      February 24, 2012 at 5:40 am

      That is by far the dumbest thing I have ever read. Not only is growth at the heart of what we are, but the resources available to us haven’t even been scratched. Who is this guy? Do you have any idea how dumb that is?

      • RonB

        February 24, 2012 at 5:48 am

        It’s not dumb, it’s ok to have an opinion and we grow up with them and keep them until logic and/or experience tells us to form another one.

        In the late 1800’s there was a meeting in the states about the future of technology. It was the general opinion that we would be waist deep in horse manure if something wasn’t done.
        The people then could not envision the creation of the automobile. They were not dumb.

        • Ransompw

          February 24, 2012 at 10:07 am

          I didn’t say he was dumb, just the notion.

    • GreenWin

      February 24, 2012 at 6:55 am

      “…the Wilberforce Award ($1M dollars to a person under 30) has been extended until there is a deserving recipient.” Dick Smith

      “Remember what I said scammers would do re any proper test result? Delay Delay Delay!”
      Dick Smith

    • Methusela

      February 24, 2012 at 7:22 am

      Go away. Retire. Do a jigsaw. Take up woodworking instead of trolling.

      Trolling is not a nice hobby.

  28. Stephen T.

    February 24, 2012 at 5:27 am

    Dick, I will post a link for the video they are talking about. Be sure to hit the CC button so you can see the subtitles as it is Professor Focardi speaking in Italian.

    Here you will see the early reactors that “provided heat to the factory”. I suspect they warmed their hands and the evidence of excess heat being measured was confirmed by obvious “first principle” observation.

    • Dennis Moore

      February 24, 2012 at 5:35 am

      And that is $5000 for Stephen, right Dick?

      • Stephen T.

        February 24, 2012 at 5:39 am

        Yes, please have him donate it to Jed Rothwell at

  29. Quax

    February 24, 2012 at 7:04 am

    Ekstrom very much summarized the mainstream view of Cold Fusion/LENR. Most physicists didn’t touch this anymore after it was classified as pathological science. I’d be surprised if he reviewed all the new evidence that has been published since mainstream science gave up on it.

    It reminds me of the famous Max Planck quote:

    A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.

    Half of the pointless bickering on this site stems from the fact that most people don’t understand this, and think scientist are perfectly rational super-humans from planet Vulcan. Nothing could be further from the truth. Some of the academics I had the displeasure to work with were among the most head strong, stubborn, socially ill adapted people I ever met.

    LENR’s reputation slowly recovers and it seems to be poised on the brink of gaining back some mainstream science attention.

    This is why it’ll be rather tragic if Rossi/Defkalion are scams because even if LENR is real they may not be (or only have something far less than commercially viable).

    Hence scrutiny is crucial. They may not enjoy this kind of critical attention, but if they are for real they don’t really have to fear to be put under the microscope.

    • Dsm

      February 24, 2012 at 7:34 am

      Very good post. Nails the issue well.

      I remain very suspicious of these test but those totally comitted to them being above board wont have long to wait.

      Those of us who are committed to LENR will be delighted when the real McCoy turns up. BUT the damage that will be done to LENR should Defkalion mess this up., will be a crime to the world.

      Now here is a thought to feed the conspiracy theorists among us (Jesse Ventura is a hoot and his shows are fun). So, if you wanted to crush LENR investment & research funding at a time when it looked like a breakthrough could be close, what is one very effective way to achieve it ?

      A possibility, organise a massive scam that makes some pocket money along the way.

      This is pure speculation but qualifies as an interesting line of enquiry.

      Doug M

      • Peter Roe

        February 24, 2012 at 9:05 am

        Actually, I think it qualifies as pseudoskepticism.

    • CuriousChris

      February 24, 2012 at 8:11 am

      Quax your ability to put my thoughts into words are amazing. I can add this though…

      “The one thing that is worse than religious dogma, is scientific dogma.”


      • georgehants

        February 24, 2012 at 9:51 am

        CuriousChris, I think the other day I replied to you without reading your comment correctly.
        I sincerely apologise and can only say I was in a bad mood.

  30. LCD

    February 24, 2012 at 7:04 am

    What’s the word from DGT?

  31. Jim Cramer

    February 24, 2012 at 8:27 am

    I agree, almost everything on this site is pointless bickering. Based on site hits and my estimation of ad revenue, paul is making a few bucks on you guys.

    It’s unfortunate that a site dedicated to news about a potential breakthrough in energy generation is concerned about money.

    In my opinion, Andrea Rossi is doing this for money, dick smith is doing this for money, Krivit does what he does for money. I have personal and direct confirmation that Sterling Allen is in this for money, NASA is looking for money to support this in research dollars. MIT wants grant money to support this research after the hot fusion money dries up. It’s all about the frickin money.

    I’m just about fed up with the constant lack of concern for our future and the future of our children. Andrea Rossi needs to release his design into the public domain if, in fact, he has something that works.

    • Peter Roe

      February 24, 2012 at 9:08 am

      Would you go to work if you weren’t paid, Jim? I know I sure as hell wouldn’t.

      • Jim Cramer

        February 24, 2012 at 9:24 am

        I volunteer my time to charitable organizations constantly. I don’t need a big house or a fancy car to consider myself successful .

    • dsm

      February 24, 2012 at 9:11 am


      That seems to capture the feelings of a lot of us.

      If it is real then cut the crap and let an independent university do an analysis. That is all Rossi really needed to do. i.e. Kullander at Uppsala.

      You would imagine that if 1 person came up with a Nobel prize winning technology that changes the world forever, that they would be able to have both glory and a satisfactory financial return, even if it was doing the lecture circuit for 20 years.

      But we have two claimants for the Nobel throne. Who are they ?

      One who alienated everyone around him after approx 15 years of research (accompanied by an eminent professor who has many years of LENR research background
      Another group of marketeers who got such megalomaniacal visions of grandeur (according the the founder of Defkalion Prof Stremmenos) that they prayed for a miracle to replace Rossi’s eCat.

      And with no eminent professor behind them (after Stremmenos resigned in disgust and issued his infamous attack on the people at Defkalion), Defkalion in 3 months did what no other lab in the world can even pretend to imitate. SRI along with my very good Kiwi friend Mike McKubre, showed a small LENR event at MIT recently (in 2012) – their best effort after 20 years. But Defkalion say they have produced the miracle that is the greatest invention of the history of human inventions.

      So many people are infatuated with the belief that such miracles (the Defkalion hyperion reactor) can happen in miracle time and that this is a very modern phenomenon. That is, any ordinary person with a total belief in eternity can do miracles like build their own LENR reactor from scratch, or from divination, or from osmosis or simply from a god given miracle, and change the world (just give as $2,400,000,000 euros while we talk about it).

      I suspect such incredible faith is fueled by the many Hollywood fantasy blockbusters we have grown up with. Hmmm, the ‘Back to the future’ skateboard is real, I saw M J Fox riding one. Well it may not be real today but it will be real some time real soon (yeah). Then we had the Moller Skycar that even the US military was claimed to be testing in war games in 1999 (pure fantasy it never flew with 1 single person aboard in 30+ years). Moller still claims it is real and sold it to some gullible Chinese who clearly had little grasp of what happened in the US in 2003 to Moller’s company.

      Ah well. Hit me punch me, berate me, because I am actually sorry for those who are waiting with baited breath for the miracle to be proven real.

      You only have a few hours, maybe days to hear the wonderful news.

      Or, amazingly some of you may be in control of your faculties enough to accept that it may not occur because the miracle really hasn’t happened yet.

      I’ll bet as a certainty that as I (and Dick Smith) are claiming, the tests will provide nothing substantial, not this week & not next week, then the worst and most offensive (foul mouthed) backers of the dream will be the most aggressive in claiming how they were never fooled & that we who tried to alert them have no case (else they will slink away quietly).

      I just hope that after the fiasco ends, there will still be enough investment & research funds still available to prevent another 20 year hiatus on what we LENR devotees are confident is real. But next time, shoot the bloody fraudsters before hand, don’t lap up their kool-aid.

      Doug M

      • Jim Cramer

        February 24, 2012 at 9:50 am


        Well said however, I do think that LENR is a real and a worthwhile endeavor. It’s worthy of our support. I do hope that your skepticism of Rossi doesn’t hamper the effort.



        • Dsm

          February 24, 2012 at 10:48 am

          I did not express skepticism of Rossi my my post ?

          Where did you read that ? – what sentence ?

          I am intrigued ?

          Doug M

  32. Dick Smith

    February 24, 2012 at 8:38 am

    Green. There is a big difference-I make my statements of scamming under my own name.

    You and others having a go at me hide your real names.

    For all we know you could be in the employ of Defkalion.

    And how can anyone hiding under a pseudonym on this site then complain if the “testers” do the same thing.

  33. Dick Smith

    February 24, 2012 at 8:43 am

    Jim. I am fascinated. How am I going to make any money out of my stand on this.?

    I consider it very much a hobby with the satisfaction that I may be able to prevent money being lost by genuine people .

    • Jim Cramer

      February 24, 2012 at 9:19 am


      I dont hide under an anonymous name and I think you know what I’m talking about when it comes to investing time, effort and money into a project success and hedging your investment on it’s failure.

      When it comes to LENR, our future rides on this horse. We don’t have the luxury of investing our money, time or resources in anything related to a carbon based energy source over the long term.

      Right now, I’m frustrated when you offer 1 million dollars (us) to a Greek firm to push a personal agenda when that money could be spent on basic research that would allow a few more papers to be published confirming the reality of LENR. – yes, I know you’ve withdrawn the offer.

      I’m pretty sure you agree that LENR is a reality, do what I do and donate the money to stimulate research in the subject.



      • spacegoat

        February 24, 2012 at 9:54 am

        I second that Jim. In my rush to reply to DS earlier comments I overlooked yours. Sorry.

      • Ivy Matt

        February 24, 2012 at 4:29 pm

        When it comes to LENR, our future rides on this horse.

        Not necessarily.

        We don’t have the luxury of investing our money, time or resources in anything related to a carbon based energy source over the long term.

        False dilemma.

    • un passante

      February 24, 2012 at 11:01 am

      Actually you seem satisfied with preventing people from talking about e-cat/LENRs.

      I think you made your point clear. you think it’s a scam. we did take note.

      Now you can leave and get back, let’s say, once a month to remind us it’s a scam and that we all will die. No need to post the “it’s a scam” message a dozen times a day (and rephrasing the message doesn’t mean you’re saying anything different).

  34. RyanWLocke

    February 24, 2012 at 8:53 am

    Good mornning Dick

    I wonder in what ways you could make money from this as well.

    • dsm

      February 24, 2012 at 9:52 am

      How much money do you think Dick needs ?

      How much money do you imagine Rossi has given to any charity in the past 10 years ?

      How much money have you given to any charity in the past 10 years ?

      If you have donated more than 1/100th of what Dick Smith and his wife have donated to charities (public knowledge here) in the past 10 years I’ll donate $Aud 1000 to any Aussie charity you name.

      But you may not have the character that even fits the bill – your posts are rather self damning. So I am sure your silence will allow me to just donate my $1k to Aussie the charity I choose.

      Doug M

      • RyanWLocke

        February 24, 2012 at 10:39 am


        1 st question: you would have to ask Dick. He says he has donated quite a large amount. But then again he has proven that his word is not reliable. (Public knowledge)

        2 nd question: you would have to ask Rossi. You would probably get four different answers.

        3 rd question: Definetly a bigger percentage of my income than DS. Of course I’m speculating becuase his income is substantially more than mine and the rewards more monetarily reciprocal.

        Damning how?

        If I was a little scathing I apologise. Its something I’m working on. 🙂

        • Dsm

          February 24, 2012 at 10:45 am

          Please do keep working on it

          Dick & wife donated $10mill +


          Doug M

          • RyanWLocke

            February 24, 2012 at 11:26 am

            Really? That was a dramatic buildup to a rather disappointing ending.

            At any rate I feel like I have made the point I was trying to communicate.

            I just hope that everyone involved and concerned for whatever reason or cause does not let their niavety or skepticism get in the way of a good thing.



  35. RyanWLocke

    February 24, 2012 at 8:58 am

    What could you hope to gain by trying to keep your fellow Aussie’s money and products being sold out to foreign competitors like Kraft?

  36. Dick Smith

    February 24, 2012 at 9:04 am

    Green my Wilberforce offer was only for a twelve month period.
    When there was not even one applicant in that time I decided to extend the offer.

    What would have done? Given the money to the nearest person wandering past?
    Yair. I bet.

    By the way. Nothing to stop you putting your real name up here. Then you will have as much impact as I do!

    • GreenWin

      February 24, 2012 at 1:37 pm

      You said in your public announcement:

      “Like the Nobel Prize, you will not apply for the Wilberforce Award. Over the next twelve months I will be following the media throughout the world to see who is the most outstanding individual in not only making a significant contribution to this important issue, but who also becomes famous through his or her contribution to the debate.”
      Dick Smith, August 2010

      Your inconsistency and double talk demonstrates your utter lack of impact here! And I would hazard to say you have fatally bolloxed your goal for the Wilber Force award. But you are amusing the readership.

  37. Methusela

    February 24, 2012 at 9:27 am

    Go away. Have a barbecue. Burn a $1,000,000 AUD.

    • dsm

      February 24, 2012 at 9:45 am

      So wonderfully polite

      Dick fer f’sake stop kicking the puppies – Methusela is losing control.

      Doug M

      • RyanWLocke

        February 24, 2012 at 10:03 am

        Lol. Don’t take it so personal Meth. Just a litlle debate and banter.

        I don’t think DS has ever kicked any real puppies.

      • RonB

        February 24, 2012 at 11:39 am


  38. RyanWLocke

    February 24, 2012 at 9:28 am

    Honestly if your bored and need some attention/publicity. Stick with something you are experienced and knowledgeable in.

    Leave LENR and icebergs alone. You’ve done enough damage.

    • dsm

      February 24, 2012 at 9:43 am

      That is pretty scathing !!!. It prompts me to ask what your LENR credentials are ? I hope you can come up with a good answer after that post !.


      Doug M

      • RyanWLocke

        February 24, 2012 at 10:10 am

        I have none. I’m what you call a fair weather fan.

        Do I need any to call into question DS character and motivations?

      • un passante

        February 24, 2012 at 11:14 am

        you can be a troll even with your real name. and if you go past wealth and name and examine DS activity here it’s obvious he is trolling.

        If I have to choose I prefer the MaryYugo version of trolling. at least he/she/it occasionally showed some brain.

        I don’t get why you have chosen him as your intellectual champion. MY was a far better one.

        • Dsm

          February 24, 2012 at 11:39 am

          Sorry but that was a stupid remark. All I did here was identify him as the real DS then try to let him get a fair hearing because he is a known very fair person. You aren’t.

          Dick may not be conversant with LENR research details all he needs to be is expert at spotting scams and that he is.

          Dick may not be an eloquent debater but by god he says what he thinks in uncluttered language.

          If you insist on denigrating him for being honest and me for having the gall to step in and warn off the insults thrown at him you are unfit to debate on this topic.

          I would though like to believe you are a sincere fan of LENR who has no more desire to be blinded by waffle from marketing people out to take millions than any of us.

          The blunt debate about Defkalion and their plans will not change the outcome history will tell us what that is but stripping away the veneers of miraculous intervention is a neccesity.

          Now Defkalion, step foward and amaze us. If you can the world will never be the same again. But, decieve us and LENR gets damned again.

          Doug M

          • georgehants

            February 24, 2012 at 11:56 am

            Dsm I have replied on new page. see you there.

          • un passante

            February 24, 2012 at 5:26 pm

            the fact is that I can smell a scam from 1,267,31 miles away and scam it is not.

            there you have it, the exact net contribution coming from DS, only reversed.

            there’s nothing of scientific scepticism in there. there’s only guessing. he can repeat the same line 1,000,000 times, like the money he is not willing to spend to actually investigate if it is a fraud, yet the weakness of his arguments remains the same.

            if he is really willing to save us he should pay an investigator (to find where the factory is or if it exists, for example) and get back here to show the evidences not make bold claims and fake bets over and over.

  39. dsm

    February 24, 2012 at 9:40 am

    PDGT has successfully completed its scientific, technological and engineering steps necessary to sustain such a reaction with results exceeding a COP of 20 and with temperatures capable to exceed 650 degrees Celsius.

    As it was announced in our November 30th Press Release, a series of third party tests on Hyperion products have been scheduled to be performed within the first months of 2012, immediately after our product’s certification. The present announcement does not refer to such product tests.

    With this announcement, PDGT welcomes further requests from internationally recognized and reputable scientific and business organizations interested to conduct their independent tests on “bare” Hyperion Reactors. Such independent tests have already been scheduled.

    • RyanWLocke

      February 24, 2012 at 10:05 am

      Thanks for the update.

      • Dsm

        February 24, 2012 at 11:08 am

        Do you know who the internationally recognised orgs may be ?

        Or is there a minor delay in letting us know ?

        Doug M

        • RyanWLocke

          February 24, 2012 at 12:09 pm


          First let down.

  40. spacegoat

    February 24, 2012 at 9:49 am

    @Dick Smith
    Let me try to distract you from continued baseless innuendo and accusations.

    You said:
    “It’s about communicating that our present economic system that relies on perpetual growth in the use of resources and energy is not sustainable and therefore will eventually collapse.
    Just commonsense!”

    Wrong. There is a good likelihood that if LENR receives some proper science and engineering funding then, as NASA stated in the video they release following their LENR patent, the whole solar-system becomes inhabitable, and growth can continue for at least a few thousand years.

    Is this not proof that you are uninformed as to the real potential of LANR, according to NASA, that will dump your Malthusian ideas into the dustbin?

    My plea is that you do something truly beneficial for Australians and the rest of the world, and actively sponsor this technology through what has already been suggested, an X-prize?

    By the way I checked up on Firepower, looking for involvement of actual scientists. I checked the first chapter of FIREPOWER, THE MOST SPECTACULAR FRAUD IN AUSTRALIAN HISTORY by GERARD RYLE. I also checked on the Sydney Morning herald.

    Unlike the current case DGT/AR, there is no mention of scientists. The Science Minister, a clueless politician, does not count.

    This issue will be resolved by science, no more no less.

    • dsm

      February 24, 2012 at 9:59 am


      You and I both believe in LENR, we both believe in NASA’s excitement. I might have believed in Mill’s hydrinos if he hadn’t kept making grand promises (a la Paul Moller) for the past 20 years !!! – just google him). PS I still admire Mills.

      But we disagree as to if hyperion is the world’s newest wonder energy.

      And for the record FIREPOWER DID NOT START IN AUSTRALIA (excuse the frustration in the caps) it started elsewhere and was global. In Australia it was in Perth and the fair comment is that it probably did as much harm here as the UK, Russia & the US etc:

      Doug M

      • spacegoat

        February 24, 2012 at 3:16 pm

        “But we disagree as to if hyperion is the world’s newest wonder energy.”

        Unless you believe in the Hyperion, we do not disagree on this.
        Like 95% on this site, we are all skeptical. We wait on the evidence.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      February 24, 2012 at 10:00 am

      spacegoat: I agree with you, except that I think that limiting population is a Good Idea, regardless of technological development. The performance of mankind grows only something like logarithmically with population, but the problems grow linearly so at some point it’s unwise to grow further. Colonising the solar system or even galaxy would help for a long time, but ultimately exponential growth would dwarf even their resources (the wheat and chessboard problem).

      • spacegoat

        February 24, 2012 at 3:20 pm

        I agree with you Pekka, but by the time mankind has spent a couple of thousand years in space, maybe we will have matured sufficiently to live in balance.

        However at the moment, a “NASA video” type source of energy, would open up a new frontier, that would allow mankind in its current juvenile state, to expand freely without Malthusian angst.

    • Anonymous

      February 24, 2012 at 2:17 pm


      Even with self sustaining LENR powered rockets and extra-terrestrial power stations, spaced based colonies will have a VERY HIGH cost per inhabitant. So aside from some niche off-world mining of a moon, we are not going to move massive population off world. Further, for most people, living on earth will be far nicer — the mining colony will be like living on a submarine, i.e. something that is done for work but you don’t want to bring your children.

      So, in the end run, I would expect you are talking about well less than 10,000 people off world for the next 200 years or so. This has no material effect on the earth’s population.

      In my estimation, LENR perhaps increasing the carrying capacity of the earth by 50%, from a hypothetical 10 billion or so to 15 billion. This is still at a vast cost in natural ecosystem resources, particularly open arable land habitats. The bottom 1/3rd of the normal distribution by income still live on subsistence levels of food and housing. And, with Ray Kursweill’s singularity, we are faced with fewer jobs for humans as the computer/machine based substitute can do it for less economic money.

      Now, 50% more people is perhaps an additional 50 to 75 more years before we see a population crunch, and it gives us 75 more years time to study the problem and implement long term solutions. But in the long term, until we develop “warp speed” travel, we are constrained by our earth’s ecosystem and we must live with a limited population carrying capacity and hence a limit to growth.

      All this is by estimation from someone who has been thinking about this for a while.

      So, long term I see two major problems:

      1) Limitation of gainful rewarding employment for those who choose to educate themselves, and even limitation of menial employment for those who choose not to or cannot educate themselves.
      2) Limitation of the supply of food to perhaps 15 billion people, with the lower 1/3rd suffering at an unacceptable level.

      What to do:

      1) Study the problem. Do scientific and peer reviewed research.
      2) Have conferences. Engineer solutions that are acceptable to the majority.
      3) Generate grass roots popular support as the peak approaches to implement mitigations before we condemn that 1/3rd of humanity to suffering as population growth goes flat line.
      4) Generate political support in all parties globally for implementation.

      This will take 50 to 75 years to implement a solution.

      But, a successful LENR device gives us a free “second chance” before petroleum and natural gas are past peak in perhaps 40 and 75 years. (Counting tar-sands and fracking.) The population keeps growing so LENR puts off the problem by a significant period of time.

      • spacegoat

        February 24, 2012 at 3:36 pm

        Very thoughtful post Anonymous.
        First the assumption: high cost of space based colonies.
        For the bootstrap of transferring materials into space we have the space elevator, that I seem to recall from looking at it about two years ago, was technically viable (mostly to do with materials strength).

        If LENR provides space travel independence, then colonization of Mars and other bodies is perfectly viable.

        The cost you are supposing may be based on government type spending in the past on space, whereas I think the real advance will come from private inroads into space.

        With education, I believe most countries will settle down to a low population rate of increase. The large population third world country where I live in the 120’2 to 130’s in development is going that way. It is all a matter of education and economic standards, that hopefully LANR will bring.
        It occurs to me that if our resident multi-millionaire Dick Smith really had Malthusian concerns, then research into LENR would be his best bet.

        Agree with you on the point about limitation of gainful rewarding employment. It will become self limiting if material resources are made abundant for all by LANR.

  41. georgehants

    February 24, 2012 at 10:03 am

    Foreign Policy Journal
    Cold Winter after Progress in Cold Fusion
    The emerging field of cold fusion is a typical example of suppression imposed by —

    • Dsm

      February 24, 2012 at 10:57 am

      When you are good you are very very good but ……….

      Anyway, that was a great link


      Doug M

      • georgehants

        February 24, 2012 at 11:02 am

        Dsm, I know, but I have strong feelings for P&F and others who have been dragged down by over skepticism etc. makes me angry.

        By the way Paul opened new page.
        Best to you and us all re. Defkalion results.

    • jean valjean

      February 24, 2012 at 11:53 am

      very useful link…thank

  42. CuriousChris

    February 24, 2012 at 10:18 am

    Look I don’t know if I should post this here or not but to hell with it.

    The Ben that posts here also runs the blog ecatsite. he claims to have spoken to ms Betts

    On his site I asked if he could post the contents of the email(s).

    He replied rather “That it was clear in the article he phoned her.”

    It was not clear. In fact he used the word emailed once and contacted at other times. Please look for yourself (I have a screen grab in case he decides to change it) So I replied to point out that he did not state that he phoned her.

    Now it appears I am banned from that site. Not that I give a toss about that except it proves that other than making libelous accusations as he has done here several times. He also does not want to hear alternate viewpoints, and would prefer to actively censor.

    So Ben, Yeah mate I don’t believe you, You have no proof and no you did not say you phoned her.

    Greenwin (posted on the same forum ) my pseudonym is CuriousChris not GullibleChris.

    • LCD

      February 24, 2012 at 4:26 pm

      I know Ben if he banned you it was for a good reason. Ben was an original on this site. He’s good people and trustworthy. That site is not his main thing in life, if he called Ms Betts you can count on it.

      Also he doesn’t normally go out of his way to verify these things and I’m sure he decided to because he as all of us are tired of hearing half truths from Krivit.

      And look with little effort we find out again that Krivit’s half truths.

    • Thicket

      February 24, 2012 at 4:58 pm


      Ben posted on this forum that he would ban me from his forum. It gave me a good laugh since I’ve never been there, nor do I have any intention of going there.

      Ben strongly resents challenges to his beliefs. Time and again, he’s shown abusive behaviour.

      Around the same time another eCatnews poster said that should he ever have an LENR party at his house, he would throw me out. That was really funny. I’ve no idea why I would be at his fictitious party. Other than Rossi/Defkalion, I don’t follow LENR, nor do I have strong opinions about it.

      • Methusela

        February 24, 2012 at 8:50 pm

        You would be the ideal party guest.

        Just don’t talk about religion, politics, or LENR / LANR / Cold Fusion / Oil.

  43. Jami

    February 24, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    Ransompw wrote: “Please see Lewan’s second test. Your anaysis fails. The quantity of water run through the ecat was carefully measured as was the input energy (according to Lewan), but over half of the water disappeared after running through 3 meters of hose and into a bucket of water.

    Sorry, please explain this result given your theory.”

    I assume you’re referring to the April 28 test (the famous “stable, stable” one) which is perhaps the most obviously faked of them all. Lewan didn’t weigh the ecat afterwards, so that would account for the missing water. You don’t even have to go into why Rossi had his hands on the heater control just when Lewan went out to check the “steam” or the funny way in which Lewan calibrated the thermocouple (placing it in bubling water and concluding 99.5C as the boiling point, which is just silly. Air pressure in Bologna was 1012 hPa during the test, which means 100C – but never mind that). All you really have to look at is the temperature curve named “Serie2” from the excel graph Lewan put in his report. There is no way any setup even remotely working as the machines described by Rossi could produce such a curve. Not with LENR, not with gas, not with an electrical heater.

  44. GreenWin

    February 24, 2012 at 1:52 pm

    Thanks George! THIS pretty much spells it out:

    “While the science of today is highly dependent on government funding, irresponsible decision makers have made it a servant of dominant groups with common interests. As a result, not only the media and policy makers but also many honest scientists are misinformed. To be more specific, the blame is on the scientific establishments with their bureaucratic style of management.”

    Fortunately all that will change.

  45. Quax

    February 24, 2012 at 4:15 pm

    Just returned to the site after a good night sleep and would like to give a shout-out to everybody who takes the time to leave positive feedback. Very much appreciated.

    This together with the occasional gems of well crafted and original posts make this site worthwhile to me.

  46. stan

    February 24, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    I agree that this is a green energy scam.The main cost of electricity is the generators and transmission,not the fuel.