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$1m Challenge Is Dead
February 21, 2012Dick Smith’s $1m challenge to Defkalion ended when the Australian businessman pulled out. Citing Defkalion’s insistence on secrecy as a deal killer, Smith will watch the outcome of the forthcoming Hyperion tests before deciding what to do next.
The result is unsurprising given the Aussie’s determination to publish events and communications as they happen. Convinced that both Rossi and Defkalion are conducting a scam, he felt no need to hide his scorn and many watchers (this one included) could see where things were headed from minute one. The hard sceptics will blame Defkalion and many others, Smith.
One thing is evident, living with this story and its twists and turns, it is easy to forget how complex the subject is. It became quickly obvious that Dick lacked an understanding of those intricacies and while that is understandable, it put him at a disadvantage when trying to convince others that they should listen to his wisdom. That is a shame because absent detail, he could see a clear pattern unmuddied by distracting textures.
Before he appeared, I was gathering pros and cons to revisit a post I made some months ago looking at evidence for and against the eCat. Then, I concluded that anyone certain that this was a scam was not thinking straight or did not know enough about it. The subsequent revelation that the 1MW container had not been shipped was heaped on to the mystery of the secret customer and then the second customer that was to be revealed before AR apparently changed his mind.
Dick Smith’s appearance coincided with the NI reveal and I have to admit that the pattern I saw develop at Steorn was beginning to look very familiar.
You might think eCatNews has gone to the dark side but that is not so. My confidence is dented but not destroyed. Always reserving judgement, my scepticism was pragmatic – hope dressed in a show-me frame, I always felt there was enough circumstantial evidence to make this worth following. That is what I think now. Dick Smith’s certainty is misplaced in my opinion but it is well meant. I hope that no matter what happens with the eCat or Hyperion he decides to do something positive to promote LENR. To start, he should talk to people in the field to understand what is going on and he should join the rest of us to learn as we watch Defkalion and Rossi explode or change the world.
With the $1m challenge gone, the floor is Defkalion’s. So far, they have managed an air of professionalism. Let’s hope they produce the goods over the coming weeks. I would place a bet that they will demonstrate LENR convincingly but I will reserve a call on Hyperion’s utility until we know more. Hope is tinged with realism but it is still there.
We should not forget how important a successful demonstration of a robust and controllable cold fusion reaction is. In 1989 it sparked world headlines. Shrouded in so much controversy, who knows what will happen next?
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on February 21, 2012. Filed under Competitors,Defkalion,Drama,Hyperion,Media & Blogs,Tests & Demos.
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Josh (Original)
February 21, 2012 at 6:00 pm
I was wrong – I didn’t see him pulling out. I hope I’m wrong on Rossi and/or Defkalion as well. I wish they’d prove me wrong already.
Stephen T.
February 21, 2012 at 6:19 pm
It has been controversial because it hasn’t been on the nightly news every day ad nauseum. The vast majority will accept it as “fact” when it is on TV. That chapter of this story will be fun. Let’s hope we can turn the page and start that chapter soon!
Quax
February 21, 2012 at 6:24 pm
Well, that was a bust.
In my line of business as an IT consultant I sign NDAs all the time. Most are boilerplate stuff to protect customer data or proprietary IP. Since Defkalion claims the latter I would have been surprised if they didn’t ask for one. Only if the NDA was to infringe on the release of the test protocol or release of test data would it be indicative of fraudulent intent.
In order to not lend them credibility one could agree to sign the NDA only on the day that the test is scheduled while also making the NDA public.
I really wished Dick Smith would have made more of an effort to come to acceptable terms.
As it is this was nothing but a distraction.
Very disappointing.
Bob D
February 21, 2012 at 9:49 pm
Dissapointing yes, but nothing compared to when the truth hits the fan.
Al Potenza
February 21, 2012 at 6:31 pm
“One thing is evident, living with this story and its twists and turns, it is easy to forget how complex the subject is.”
Maybe I’m simple minded but I don’t see how testing a more than 10 kW table top nuclear fusion reactor is so complex. Flow calorimetry is direct, simple, virtually fool proof, and Defkalion claims they’ve been doing it on their systems for more than six months.
I suppose in a few days we may see some tests. But Defkalion could defuse a lot of critics right now by simply doing a fool proof demonstration of their complete highest power reactor. Let it make tons of steam and heat on TV. Why not? And yes, it might not satisfy the pseudopathoskeptics but who gives a damn about them anyway?
So who’s complicating things?
Sorry if my patience may seem to be wearing thin. Fortunately, the first set of Defkalion tests is scheduled soon.
Stephen T.
February 21, 2012 at 6:39 pm
BECAUSE, that would expose them to the whole “other” set of criticisms that Rossi’s large mass tests were subjected to. Sure, he could have done this or that and then we would have a new set of critics.
Step 1: Bare reactor “small mass” simple.
Step 2: Full system with secondary cooling circuit.
Patience. This is has been and will be a painfully slow process. I share your pain. (Much pain.)
Al Potenza
February 21, 2012 at 6:53 pm
If I read you right, Defkalion is sort of caught between the problem of getting new critics if they show the whole system and being accused by Dick Smith of delaying to sell more hapless investor shares if they don’t.
I am less worried about investors and critics. I just don’t see why they can’t have the precise “surgical” simple tests that they want and at the same time, show a spectacular full blown highest power reactor making lots of heat, steam and fuss on video. It’s what I would do if I were them (and if I were for real).
I say screw the skeptics. Who cares? Why care? Show the rest of us the goods! 10 kW is a lot of power on a desk top and they claim much more than that in a package that would fit on a large table. They’ve been testing those for months! I want to see one running. Don’t you?
Stephen T.
February 21, 2012 at 7:02 pm
Al,
Yes, I agree with you, but their strategy seems to be “keep it really small and really simple for the first tests”. Keep the total mass as small as possible so reasonable skeptics can’t find enough mass for chemical means for the 96 hours of testing. Really, this is important and is what they want to accomplish in the first round. Second round they move on to wide open throttle and measure power output.
What I would do is hook up enough of the biggest reactors they have to BOIL A SWIMMING POOL! Then drop in a great big TEA BAG and let the national news deal with THAT VIDEO!
Peace.
Bob D
February 22, 2012 at 5:08 am
Stephen,
Boil a swimming pool? Surely you jest. You would need some sort of nuclear reactor to perform that feat.
Stephen T.
February 21, 2012 at 7:26 pm
Al,
You have seen one running! You have seen the huge outpouring of steam from the Oct. 6 test (I think that was the one?)on the video at the end when they opened the valve on the bottom of that module it blew out enough steam to boil dozens of lobsters in a couple of minutes! If you don’t know that video I will find it for you. That is the “other” set of criticisms.
Al Potenza
February 21, 2012 at 7:37 pm
I did see the video and the steam was impressive. The problem was that it didn’t last! It was one short shot!
If that amount of steam had come out for hours, or days, I would have been impressed. As it was, there are too many places other than nuclear reactions that the steam could have come from.
I am not talking about Defkalion creating a burst of steam. I am asking that they run a high power reactor and as someone else said, make a swimming pool boil and make tea in it. That wouldn’t be a reasonable request except that, according to their specifications and claims of previous tests, they’ve already done the equivalent of it.
John Milstone
February 21, 2012 at 7:43 pm
Do you mean the September 7 test? (VIDEO)
I find it very interesting is the huge difference in the quantity and pressure of the steam (with lots of liquid water) coming out of the spigot (at about 4:05) and the very powerful blast of high-pressure steam shooting out of the bottom (at about 6:30).
As I understand it, both of those openings are supposedly in the same container! How in the world can a hole at one end produce a trickle, while a hole at the other end produce a strong blast for several minutes (1:20 or so was shown in the video, and Lewan said it went on for about 3:00).
John Milstone
February 21, 2012 at 7:51 pm
I can’t help but think that the blast of steam at the end of the video was from an internal, high-pressure container full of water.
The importance of this is that high-pressure water can store far more energy than water at “normal” pressure, since the boiling point goes up with the pressure.
This particular E-Cat had a “secret” internal container of about 20 liters in volume. If that could hold water at, say, 10 atmospheres of pressure, the water inside could be heated to 181C without it boiling.
That would supply enough heat to boil the small stream of water being pumped through the E-Cat for a long time (hours).
And then, with a magical flourish, Rossi opens the valve, relieving the pressure, and at the same time, eliminating the evidence.
Dennis Moore
February 22, 2012 at 12:21 am
I have a lot of problems with that video. First of all, why is Lewan doing what looks like a promotional video for Rossi? Is he reporting on it or selling it?
Next at about 4 min. he pulls off the steam outlet hose and it looks to me like water is pumping over the top, not boiling off.
Then he puts it into self sustain mode and then the video cuts to the end. Now the pump has been shut off. The water inlet valve is closed and the water hose has been removed. When did he remove the water inlet? I would have expected that when you demonstrate the unit in self sustain mode you keep water flowing. The steam outlet valve must be closed at this point to build the kind of pressure that you see when they open it.
This video raises many red flags for me. Now If Dick Smith had come in and used this video as part of his sceptical criticism I would have been right there with him. But I doubt that he has ever seen this video and if he had, he would have no clue what he was looking at, unless someone explained it to him. Instead he came in spewing nonsense.
Tony
February 22, 2012 at 12:30 am
John,
You have it right.
Remember the “MHz generator” that was needed for AR’s first tests. Why no more? Breakthough from NI? Not likely. I surmised that that the “generator” was nothing more that a stupid circuit to bypass water into the wall when the circuit was triggered.
When more run time was needed, there was more “preheating” and more e-cats = more mass to hide the lack of any kind of reaction.
And the “customer” test in Baloney. With a 500 Kw diesel generator running the whole time? It would almost be funny if it wasn’t so transparent.
DGT would not pass up an easy million if they had what they say they have. Nobody would. I’ll make the offer now – a billion bucks for a one week, self-sustained test with no phase conversion and simple calorimetry to prove excess power.
I don’t have a billion but I don’t need it. Neither AR nor DGT could collect the money.
These two are the worst kind of fraudsters. Selling bad real estate or bad investments is one thing. Preying on, and using, the Zeitgeist to make the score? Promising not an individual profit but a saving grace for life as we know it? And refusing to do the most simple thing in the world to put the whole thing to rest once and for all?
Well, either brilliant or evil, depending on which direction you’re looking at it.
For me, evil – and so very, very easy to see.
Tony2
Colin Connaughton
February 21, 2012 at 10:33 pm
For some reason there is no Reply button on John Milstone’s posts.
However, I agree that Rossi’s demos would be easy to contrive in some way or another. Just think, if a ‘magician’ can produce a rabbit out of an ‘empty’ hat or apparently saw a woman in half and she survives unharmed, then I expect there is at least one way for the demo to be faked. I think there are lots of ways probably. That’s why I think the ecat should simply be tested by independent universities according to their, I repeat ‘THEIR’, methods and evaluations.
John Milstone
February 22, 2012 at 12:35 am
AFAIK, this forum software only allows replies for a few (3 or 4) levels deep. After that, it disables the “Reply” link.
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 6:52 pm
Al:
If you send a group of scientists with knowledge of the area to test a device, you don’t think they may learn something from the experience other then O/I. I would be shocked if the teams doing the tests on the Defkalion core walked away without some knowledge of Defkalion’s IP. (Assuming they have any) So an NDA just makes sense, accept to Dick apparantly.
Al Potenza
February 21, 2012 at 6:59 pm
I see your point but the basic idea is pretty simple. All Defkalion has to do is provide a table with the Hyperion on it (the full system). According to their previous posts, it’s a compact unit which contains all controller parts. It has a power input, a cool fluid input and a hot fluid output. That’s from their specs.
So they provide one and all the tester does is to connect his own power source to three wires, connects an external coolant loop with a thermocouple at the input and output, and measures the coolant flow rate and “delta-T”. That can be done without revealing anything whatsoever about what’s in the box, can’t it?
The only other problem I can think of, and I doubt it’s relevant, is someone taking surreptitious readings of radiation spectra. And Defkalion can forbid bringing in a spectrometer if they prefer. A simple counter should be enough to allow readings to insure safety.
So sorry, I still don’t see what requires an NDA!
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 7:08 pm
Al:
The volume of the Hypernion is huge, there could be a lot of hidden chemical energy sources hidden within. You would have to let it run a long time (way more then 48 hours) to prove the energy source was not chemical but nuclear.
Depending on the volume of the core, It is in the specs I think, the tests coming up my (and I say may) prove a non chemical energy source, depending on the O energy.
The one criticism of the test (at least the one I deem significant) is that they may test the core at low energy. If that is the case (depending on how low) we may not have an answer to that all important question, is this LENR.
Stephen T.
February 21, 2012 at 7:13 pm
It will be hard to dissipate a lot of energy, but the comparisons between the active and control reactors will still be useful. I predict the active reactor will be unable to show much more that a couple of kW’s before reaching it’s maximum safe working temperature. My main concern is how much calibration can they really do with that little resistance heater?
LCD
February 22, 2012 at 3:46 am
They could control these temp. Issues quite easily. Add more thermal mass for example then allow the testers to take that chunk of copper home so that it in no way adds to the energy density calculations.
Stephen T.
February 21, 2012 at 7:09 pm
Good points. I agree. But they need to keep the mass down and show the bare reactors first. The whole system weighs too much to rule out chemical sources and it is too complicated and shrouded in its own complexity.
NDA’s are standard.
Stephen T.
February 21, 2012 at 9:04 pm
@John Milstone,
Thank you for posting the link to the video I was thinking of. The water just boils and boils and boils. All the while cool water is being pumped in yet steam keeps coming out. All the wires are checked! The input power is cut off. Cool water continues to be pumped in to the heavy, large system. At the end much steam is released as they prepare to cool and shut down the reactor. Must be secret compartments. Must be chemical reactions. Maybe they got their wires crossed. Yes, maybe.
The small steam outlet at the top supposedly may have a pressure resistant valve prior to it to reduce VOLUME of steam escaping. Pressure can be calculated based on the 120C internal temperature. The pressure released at the end without VOLUME control gives a very impressive though short lived exhibition of latent heat remaining after boiling all that input water! I remain impressed by this inconclusive demonstration. I look forward to Defkalions approach at minimizing the volume and mass.
Dennis Moore
February 22, 2012 at 12:24 am
My reaction to that video was the opposite, see above
Stephen T.
February 22, 2012 at 1:04 am
Dennis,
Here is a link to Mats Lewans data and report on the September 7 video we are talking about. I find Lewan’s report to be professional and thorough. If he had it to do over again I am sure he would improve the total package but this is a very nice piece of work to just show up and get it done on one “take”.
Your comments indicate that you might gain knowledge from studying the data and the video a little closer. It may not be conclusive but it sure is interesting.
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/docs/20110907LewanReport.pdf
Guru
February 21, 2012 at 6:33 pm
I will repeat this 4th time:
Defkalion want delay every test data report to MAXIMUM.
They not want published tests ntil they are ready with production lines, which may be X or XX weeks.
RyanWLocke
February 21, 2012 at 6:52 pm
Negative Guru. Nobody knows DGTs plans except for DGT. Scam or not.
Quax summed it up nicely when he described smiths need for attention as a “distraction”. At least we not have to listen to his petulent whining anymore. Well at least until his nap is over.
daniel maris
February 21, 2012 at 10:44 pm
I thought we knew that DGT are going to run a licensing system and not manufacture the device themselves.
The Tim Channel
February 21, 2012 at 7:01 pm
If ands and butts were candy and nuts we’d all have a merry xmas. Poll on the excuse for the upcoming failure of the new Dek tests on my website.
Enjoy.
Pimp
February 21, 2012 at 7:03 pm
“It became quickly obvious that Dick lacked an understanding of those intricacies and while that is understandable, it put him at a disadvantage when trying to convince others that they should listen to his wisdom.”
Yep, that’s the same sort of thing that I posted when Smith changed the COP requirements from 3 to 6 after talking to people who, unlike Smith, knew what they were talking about – and AFTER he and his people tested Rossi’s E-cat under the COP requirement of 3!!!. Of course, I was less diplomatic about it. I think that the quotation above downplays the problem that we have with somebody like Smith, and a lot of other pseudoskeptics. They try to set themselves up as authorities and they don’t know anywhere near enough to be justified in doing so.
Bob D
February 22, 2012 at 4:42 am
Yes but they don’t call themselves “Pimp”
Lu
February 21, 2012 at 7:03 pm
With this I hope Dick Smith’s involvement is dead as well. He has demonstrated absolutely NOTHING other than his significant lack of understanding of the Rossi, Defkalion and the people who are following these developments and that how far people will go to kiss his a$$.
Nobody on this forum is convinced with any certainty that Rossi or Defkalion has a commercial LENR product or it is a scam. In fact the odds are quite good that it is a scam. Anything is possible at this point. But the story and science is an interesting one and it is worth my attention.
Dick Smith may mean well but it is very easy to pick a new energy technology, proclaim it a fraud, and offer $1M to anyone able to prove it works. The odds are a million to one in his favor and the publicity is great and I’m sure he realizes this.
icarus
February 21, 2012 at 7:05 pm
Bait and switch, bait and switch. The pattern is revealing itself.
The ‘stripped down’ reactor-core only test is yet another bait and switch in my book. Fair enough, they want to do a ‘simple’ unambiguous test, but why not give a demo of unambiguous 10kW heat from the prototype machine as well? For those who are prepared to take what they are doing at face value and accept that the instruments and processes displayed are genuine. Why does it have to be either or? They are doing this to convince people that they have what they say they have, how is more evidence worse?
All this stringing it along striptease BS is not science or even very good business practice (selling license?). It just looks like a smelly scam, regardless of what it actually is. Too many lawyers involved perhaps?
SH
February 21, 2012 at 7:16 pm
“but why not give a demo of unambiguous 10kW heat from the prototype machine as well? ”
Icarus,
What you are questioning here is already announced as phase two of the testing.
Test phase #1 – Bare reactor, static calorimetry
Test phase #2 – Complete system, flow calorimetry
SH
charles sistovaris
February 21, 2012 at 7:25 pm
I have been following the saga since april last year when Brian Josephson came out with the strange announcement, an amateurish almost ridiculous video predicting the beginning of a new era…
With the doomed future of cataclysmic climate change at our doorstep, the amount of hope it has raised has been intoxicating to say the least. After the Rossi Roller coaster of suspens & disappointments I started cutting down the daily dose. And for my sanity red carefully all the hard skeptic posts to keep my feet on the ground.
It seems the coming weeks are going to be crucial. If Defkalion fails to demonstrate anything or if a scam is revealed it wont mean the end of LENR – it seems there’s a lot of things going on in the field. But the interest will probably fade for many years. However this might be the big bang we’re all hoping for. So at least for a couple of days/weeks lets dream on!
SH
February 21, 2012 at 7:25 pm
Testing is starting on friday.
I expect to see some published results in the course of the next two weeks.
Ivy Matt
February 21, 2012 at 7:47 pm
I hope to see some published results in the course of the next two weeks.
duecat
February 21, 2012 at 7:35 pm
I read a lot of ideas here that beg for an extremely powerful demonstration of this new technology. I see that event (if possible)as an unambiguous slap in the face to hundreds of millions of investors who own companies and have jobs in industries that will soon become extinct. I don’t want to see this sort of united front motivated to destroy the technology at this time.
I would prefer the type of demonstration that “keeps the dream alive” without triggering the eventual backlash that is sure to happen. When factories are in place and approvals quietly secured it will be time to provide the unequivocal evidence to the world. Is this what we should expect from a politically savoy company/person?
Stephen T.
February 21, 2012 at 7:38 pm
SH,
A very reasonable expectation. Then maybe just enough time for one more “independent third party” test before Celani’s presentation to CERN on March 22 at 10:30 EST which will be webcast live:
http://webcast.web.cern.ch/webcast/
That could be about the time it makes national news or we can all go back to sleep.
GreenWin
February 21, 2012 at 7:43 pm
Back in August of 2010 Smith offered $1 Million dollars to:
“…a young person under 30 who can impress me by becoming famous through his or her ability to show leadership in communicating an alternative to our population and consumption growth-obsessed economy.”
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_dick_smiths_blondes_are_no_way_to_warn_against_breeding
Smith promised: “One year from now I will announce the winner of the $1 Million Wilberforce Award.”
To date no such award has been made. Fraud?? Or simple CLOWNERY??
John Milstone
February 21, 2012 at 8:00 pm
Are you sure that you posted the right link? I can’t find either of the statements you claim to quote.
Methusela
February 21, 2012 at 8:25 pm
If you google or use http://duckduckgo.com and search for “wilberforce award” you will find that there’s a get out clause at the bottom of the http://dicksmithpopulation.com/wilberforce-award/ page.
Methusela
February 21, 2012 at 8:27 pm
The quotes are in there. Why isn’t there an edit function in this site?
GreenWin
February 21, 2012 at 10:28 pm
Thanks Methusela, nice to have you back. It’s more like a weasel out clause isn’t it?
Clownery.
Loop
February 21, 2012 at 7:47 pm
Even the Owl on the tree branch saw that Dick Smith is a fraud with bad intentions.
From the first sentence Dick Smith wrote (after Defkalion accepted the challenge), you could see who the Dick Smith really is.
I don’t like when idiots represent the rest of the World.
Who knows maybe Dick Smith had good intentions,
but evidently he had simple idea, promise the money (money which he didn’t had intention to give from the get-go).
There is possibility that Rossi and Defkalion were scammers.
There is huge possibility that Dick Smith were just hunting for the secret sauce.
The idea was simple, steal the secret and make the money from it or give it to the world for free.
For the first time you could hear (read) Defkalion (Symeon) talking about industrial secrets inside the device, the only time they spoke about that was http://www.defkalion-energy.com/White_Paper_DGT.pdf
and few days ago in the answer to the Dick Smith.
Peter Roe
February 21, 2012 at 9:01 pm
brk posted a very interesting insight into Smith’s possible motivation for his intervention on the previous thread, about 80% of the way down: http://ecatnews.com/?p=2078&cpage=2#comment-19733
(does anyone know how to accurately link to a particular post elsewhere on this blog please?)
felix watts
February 21, 2012 at 8:08 pm
I’m somewhat worried that the site admin here is involved in a conflict of interest. On one hand his job is to present both sides of the argument and to interpret the situation rationally. On the other he has a personal, professional and financial interest in this website. The latter interest is best served by keeping the story alive, and even pandering to the believers. That malign influence leads him to refer to the rhetorical position of believing the e-cat to be a sham as ‘the dark side’. Hardly a neutral position.
As an avid follower of the e-cat saga, I was hopeful at first, but time after time we have been disappointed, and we have yet to see any convincing evidence that anything interesting is behind the wizard-of-oz smoke and mirrors. What Rossi Says(tm) no longer counts for anything.
Mark my words, Defkalion will not demonstrate anything impressive either next month or ever. The story will simmer along for some months or years gradually losing followers until enough people have forgotten Rossi for it to flare up again in a decade or so.
felix
admin
February 21, 2012 at 9:09 pm
Felix… All first posts on this site are moderated. Note that I let this through as I do with almost all civil contributions. I do not normally respond to attacks but since you question my integrity in a manner that has direct relevance to the integrity of this site, I cannot let it go unchallenged.
Perhaps you are unaware of the riches one can make from advertising on a site like this. Go to alexa.com and look at the ranking. From there you will be able to figure the rest through Google. If you would work the many hundreds of hours I do on eCatNews for such wealth then I invite you to start one yourself. I value honesty and always start by assuming that in others until they demonstrate otherwise. It seems you don’t.
If you think that I am lying or manipulating my view in order to keep this alive you are not just insulting me but the other people posting and reading here. Perhaps I should be flattered that you believe my powers so great. If you wish to inform yourself about my motivation, follow the link above. The day I am certain there is nothing to this, I will shout it loud and clear.
Paul
felix watts
February 22, 2012 at 11:20 am
Hi Paul,
I think you are genuine in your efforts to report fairly on e-cat events. However I think you are failing slightly in that endeavour. You have allowed yourself to give Rossi the benefit of the doubt on so many occasions. Whenever you write the phrase “if we assume”, the assumption being made is invariably in Rossi’s favour.
Isn’t it much more reasonable to assume that physics as we know it is correct on this? That Rossi, a convicted fraudster, is back to his old tricks?
You are one of the more rational voices in this debate, I enjoy reading your blog and I want you to continue. Just don’t forget Steorn.
felix
dsm
February 22, 2012 at 12:41 am
Felix
Paul has no obligation to do anything other than let us share his blog site.
He speaks his mind or posts some news item & we puppies all join in the rough & tumble
He can say what he likes in his blog – that is what a blog is ?
You can start one and say you want to run it a particular way & do so.
Have a go
Cheers
Doug M
Kwhilborn
February 21, 2012 at 8:24 pm
Dick Smith attacked the LENR as a mistake. The
Facts are clear that LENR is proven and accepted as valid science.
Defkalion/Andre Rossi are claiming they van control this excess heat well enough for commercialization. This is what has been the question.
Anyone questioning LENR is an undereducated moron on this topic.
I hope Defkalion can demonstrate control of the reaction in a way that demonstrates it is ready for commercialization.
Dick Smith arguing that LENR itself is a mistake on behalf of Oxford, MIT, Brian Ahern, NASA and perhaps another 100 scientific organizations probably hurt research grants as it was timed directly after the Kimmel donation of 5.5
Milion dollars for it’s study.
Dick Smith is a proven idiot on this topic and I am extremely happy to see him run away from this “offer”.
B Fast
February 21, 2012 at 8:53 pm
Kwhilborn,
I very strongly agree with most of what you said. Many top scientists claim to have achieved LENR. Here is a list of everyone I can find that has claimed the Nickel + Hydrogen variant, many of which are respected scientist at respected institutions:
http://nickelpower.org/2011/12/30/replicators-as-if-december-30-2011/
However, when you said, “LENR is proven and accepted as valid science” I must disagree. Though the evidence is published in the peer reviewed journals, though the evidence has been replicated numerous times, though the credentials of some of the replicators is impeccible, it has not been accepted as valid science by the scientific community. In fact, wikipedia’s article on LENR repeatedly describes it as “pathological science”.
You said, “Anyone questioning LENR is an undereducated moron on this topic.” I would happily agree with your statement if the “moron” bit was removed. There is good reason for many to be undereducated on this topic. Many have another life, and expertise in other areas. However, “undereducated on this topic” is a very worthy statements.
Kwhilborn
February 21, 2012 at 11:21 pm
B Fast (Bruce?)
I stated LENR as accepted fact. This is true.
The Nickel/hydrogen variety of LENR is a twist on deuterium, etc.
There are hundreds of peer reviewed and accepted papers on LENR, but mostly dealing with the Deuterium variety. The University of Oxford has even published a book on the topic.
Dick Smith has basically stated that all LENR excess heat is the result of miswired leads. No; LENR is accepted by science. It is just not accepted by Dick.
So I again say that LENR is accepted and the main reason for testing is to see if Defkalion can control the reaction.
I hope Defkalion/AR have control of this and am excited at the future.
Even if not though, LENR is still a huge potential.
Dick Smith sadly seemed bent on curbing research into this, and most likely will be remembered as a world class idiot.
When our cars are all powered by LENR maybe I’ll mail his idiotic views to an Aussie newspaper. He does seem to be a nutter.
Kwhilborn
February 21, 2012 at 11:29 pm
I am unsure if wikipedia keeps up with science. I do not see many scientific articles condoning LENR. I think it is fact as far as the scientific community goes.
100s of peer reviewed papers and a peer reviewed BOOK from Oxford University. I think the book is a clincher.
psi
February 21, 2012 at 9:42 pm
It’s hard for me to believe that anyone with any brains would take Dick Smith seriously. He is a “science challenged” *pseudoskeptic.* As others in this discussion have said, Smith may turn out to be correct in his estimation that the Rossi/Defk saga is based on a deception. The difference between them and him is that they offered their opinions with a modicum of conscientious reluctance to throw stones from their glass houses. For the most part, these discussions have been marked on both sides by a open tolerance for diversity of opinion that is a credit to the community. Most people acknowledge that there is evidence to be cited on both sides and further clarification is needed. Hopefully we will see more clearly in a couple of weeks.
JNewman
February 21, 2012 at 8:42 pm
So now that the Dick Smith drama has fallen apart, we must move on to the next chapter: waiting for the Defkalion tests. So Rossi, provided he can refrain from engaging his caps-lock key and unleashing another blog, can hide for awhile.
In the spirit of the ABCD rating system of a few weeks ago, it would be interesting to take people’s pulse on matters Rossi. So here goes:
E. Rossi has at some point built an ecat device that does something interesting
F. Rossi has sold at least one system to a customer
G. Rossi has submitted products for certification to independent test labs.
H. Rossi is building an automated manufacturing plant in th US.
1. I strongly believe this to be true
2. I believe this is quite possible.
3. I have strong doubts about this.
4. I am quite convinced that this is false.
I will start the ball rolling: E2. F3. G4. H4.
Anyone else want to share their opinions?
AB
February 21, 2012 at 8:47 pm
Rossi’s indiscriminate use of caps lock bothered me so much I felt the need to educate him about netiquette. It seems he wasn’t aware of its rules before.
Iggy Dalrymple
February 22, 2012 at 12:06 am
What if the secret sauce is all caps?
RonB
February 22, 2012 at 4:39 am
He’s back! hahahah
Missed your posts iggy
I’m still harping on the “Show me the gamma rays and I’ll sit down” soap box.
For the life of me I just can’t figure out why no one seems interested in having these guys show us some radiation from these boxes.
You can get heat from a candle but I don’t know of any way to generate gamma rays from some electrical circuits.
Roger Bird
February 23, 2012 at 2:45 pm
I also enjoy Iggy’s posts very much.
Ron, there are many light emitting sources that do not give off heat. Bioluminescence comes to mind.
The same can be said about these boxes. Almost no one still believes that fusion is happening. There are theories. I am particularly fond of the ultra low momentum neutron (ULMN) theories.
B Fast
February 21, 2012 at 8:57 pm
E1,F3,G4,H3.
I’m almost exactly in agreement with you. I offer a bit more hope that he is building a manufacturing plant — though I wrestle with a 3 or a 4 on this one.
Quax
February 21, 2012 at 9:15 pm
E2, F2, G3, H3
Quax
February 21, 2012 at 9:15 pm
Would be nice if the admin could have a poll along these lines. Would be most informative.
Peter Roe
February 21, 2012 at 9:25 pm
OK, I’ll play. But I have to add some caveats.
E1. F2. G3. H2.
Caveats:
F2 – I think that a deal took place but it was probably not a straight sale – possibly a ‘buy in’ partnership by some largish entity. So nearly an F1.
G3 – I doubt the design is finalised. He will panic when he has to deal with this obstacle and will have to rely on his partner to resolve it. Or he may do some full-on advertising and hope public demand speeds things through.
H2 – It seems more probable to me that he will have the ‘shells’ minus cores made in China by a robot assembly line (so a ‘half truth’). There are many Chinese companies offering this service. Any ‘plant’ in the US is more likely to be a facility for making recyclable fuel elements and plugging them into empty shells for packaging and shipment. I think it is likely that he will adopt the same general strategy in Europe and elsewhere.
All total speculation, which is freely admitted.
Pekka Janhunen
February 22, 2012 at 7:39 am
Peter, I have exactly the same bets, caveats and notes. To the factory I might only add that the final assembly line need not be too huge to output two devices per minute (i.e. one million per year 24/7).
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 9:29 pm
Hey, those were my picks, although on F I am waffling between 2 and 3.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 9:50 pm
JNewman
I’ll settle for the same score as you. IMHO a very rational assessment and well back up by current events.
Cheers
Doug M
JNewman
February 21, 2012 at 9:56 pm
Always nice to have somebody agree with you.
I do hope people pay proper attention to the verb tenses in the four statements. The first three are past tense and the fourth is present tense. I was not soliciting predictions about Rossi’s future plans.
Thicket
February 21, 2012 at 11:54 pm
E4, F 2.5 (can’t decide), G4, H4
Roger Bird
February 23, 2012 at 2:54 pm
Thicket, if this is your opinion, then why are you here?
Stephen
February 22, 2012 at 12:26 am
E2-F3-G3-H3
I can’t use “4″ since “faith” escapes me, and I don’t work for Rossi.
Roger Bird
February 23, 2012 at 2:50 pm
E1, F2.5, G3, H3
I have mild doubts that Rossi has sold at least one system to a customer.
georgehants
February 21, 2012 at 8:43 pm
http://rossifocardifusion.com/open-letter-to-pentagonfbiciansa-cold-fusionlenr-energy-age-is-coming
Open Letter to Pentagon/FBI/CIA/NSA: Cold Fusion/LENR Energy Age is Coming
John De Herrera @ 7:25 pm
My first efforts to contribute something to the defense of this country started in 1943. It was a time of great turmoil and conflict – World War II was raging and many people were dying. My Dad was in the United States Navy and Mom’s three brothers were fighting with the Army. I was collecting tin cans for the war effort, mom would remove the top and bottom with a can opener, then I would smash the cans with my little foot and place them in a box for the collection truck. That was a long time ago.
In the 1980s, my employer decided to share our technology with the FBI. We had learned how to read and modify the DNA code. The potential for identifying criminals with DNA prints was interesting. My visit to a California FBI Office was very exciting, and they were so nice and thanked me for all the help with the DNA Technology. The FBI started creating a DNA Database from crime scene samples and murder victims. That became an incredible tool for solving crimes.
My late dear friend, Dr. J. Allen Hynek made an enormous contribution to defense of this country with his “Proximity Fuse”. Along with radar and the atomic bomb, the device was one of the three great scientific developments of WWII. For many years, that device was held Top Secret and no one knew about its existence. I don’t think Dr Hynek received any income from that device, even though it was used extensively by all the U.S. Armed Forces?
Dr. Hynek and his Civilian Contractor friends were dedicated to the defense of this country and taught me to be patriotic also. I have a big project I have been working on and Dr. Hynek mentioned this to some of the scientists at the Pentagon. The scientists asked that I talk with them and share my information – I did.
At this time I am involved with promoting the Rossi Energy Catalizer or E-Cat. I am convinced that this Cold Fusion reactor will transform the world: Empires will topple, billions of dollars in coal, natural gas and nuclear stocks, facilities, and equipment will be reduced to a fraction of what they are worth at this time. All of this will cause a great deal of stress in the world. The FBI, CIA, and NSA need to study the possibilities of a rapid change in the world economies – what will that entail and how to manage that big change?
The Rossi Energy Catalizer will be an incredible energy source for everything: heat and electricity for facilities and transportation power. Imagine military vehicles that can run for months without refueling? Aircraft will have no need to carry tons of dangerous fuel and can stay air-born for months? The small, pilot-less drones that are so effective, but noisy, will be silent and stay in the air as long as needed!
The FBI, CIA, and NSA need to develop this new energy source and make good use of it for national defense. Do not let the physicists that are unable to comprehend the value of the Rossi Energy Catalizer, dissuade you from fully embracing it. These psychopathic scientists and their card carrying Skeptic friends have held back the advancement of Cold Fusion/LENR for over twenty years.
Respectfully,
John (Andy) De Herrera
Regulatory Compliance Specialist
Josh
February 21, 2012 at 8:47 pm
Those agencies employ violent baboons who know to deal only with matters of brute force, nothing related to the intellect.
Even if LENR is real, expecting anything good from a government agency if shear stupidity.
Bob D
February 21, 2012 at 9:05 pm
If Rossi really had something the NSA would have gobbled up the entire project long ago. A fact I chose to overlook when I believed in his scam last fall. Reality finally set in after hearing the story change and change and change. Defkalion? Rossi copycat is all.
Roger Bird
February 23, 2012 at 3:02 pm
John (Andy) De Herrera is living in the past when the government was working for the people. These government people are now thugs and expect us to work for them. They will side with whoever has the most power, and right now the hot fusionists have the most power (excuse the anti-pun, since they don’t have any power).
Pekka Janhunen
February 21, 2012 at 8:46 pm
The Admin’s introduction “draws a line” through 1 MW shipment, still secret second customer and NI not being involved any more.
For whatever it’s worth, I don’t see a trend; I see the data points, but not a connecting line. It’s true that the 1 MW shipment was delayed from his original plan. However, delays are not uncommon in new tech development, and one has to remember that at the same time we have seen a marked acceleration in the home unit industrialisation timescale. Rossi changed his business strategy rather abruptly in November away from the 1 MW and into home units. On average, his work has proceeded on more or less according to the original schedule.
That the second customer hasn’t been named is a fact among others, anyway it’s clearly a decision which is by default up to the customer rather than the seller.
Concerning NI, there were discussions and information exchange, but it ended. They separated as friends, Rossi welcomes further collaboration and NI mentions LENR as one of their application areas. It’s normal business development, probably the NI was just more expensive than something else.
But of course, in the near future eyes are on DGT and not on Rossi. Unless he wants to surprise, but I doubt.
AB
February 21, 2012 at 8:55 pm
I have read a post from an Italian named Camillo who says that he has spoken with Rossi on the phone several times on behalf of a corporation. I believe it might be the same Camillo who posts here occasionally.
Anyway, he essentially said that Rossi made it clear from the start that there was a 90 day delivery time on the 1 MW plant. So the first 1 MW plant would have to be delivered end of February.
Source http://www.energeticambiente.it/l-e-n-r-trasmutazioni-bassa-energia/14727435-tentativi-di-teorizzazione-dellutente-camillo-62.html#post119297551
Perhaps the Camillo in question can confirm?
John Milstone
February 22, 2012 at 12:46 am
Rossi has made several statements that contradict the fact that his 1MW E-Cat is still sitting in his warehouse. He only came forward with the “I’m fixing it in my factory” after the incriminating video came to light.
There’s also the contradiction of him having a portable propane space heater in the “factory” (also seen in the January video). He had earlier claimed that he was heating his factory with an E-Cat for the previous two years. When the video showed the propane space heater, he came forward with the explanation that he doesn’t use that space other than occasionally, and that the E-Cat isn’t a good way to heat up a room that isn’t constantly in use. (I wonder if they will include that in the sales literature?)
So, we not only learned that he never shipped the E-Cat, but that he uses a propane heater for that space and that he rarely uses the warehouse, even though he is supposedly working 16 hours a day on that E-Cat.
It’s quite a stretch.
Shane D.
February 21, 2012 at 8:55 pm
Maybe Dick thought he could ride in with guns ablazing, scare off the bad guys and quickly ride off into the sunset, his cool million intack, and a hero for saving a bunch of suckers.
Sort of like one of Clint Eastwoods “spaghetti westerns”… no offense my Italian friends.
Once Defkalion agreed to his challenge with no unrealistic stipulations, and he started learning about the depth of this story, his lack of committment became clear.
Al Potenza
February 21, 2012 at 9:02 pm
“Once Defkalion agreed to his challenge with no unrealistic stipulations”
But the did have stipulations that could be considered unreasonable. They insisted in using their own method for measuring the energy output and they required an NDA for no understandable reason.
If you want someone to offer a million dollars for a test result, they need a voice in how the test will be conducted. If the idea is to show to everyone whether the Hyperion is real or fake, you can’t use an NDA to muzzle the testers.
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 9:21 pm
I already told you why they need an NDA, don’t you get it.
Methusela
February 21, 2012 at 9:36 pm
Thing is we have no idea whether the muzzling would have had any real effect as far as we are concerned.
Assuming the same conditions of the purported seven forthcoming testers, that they are allowed to say who they are and publish their results, Dick was being wholly unreasonable when he didn’t even consider it.
As an old fella, I’ve signed lots of NDAs whilst doing business in the computer industry – all of these were reasonable requests designed to prevent us from telling all and sundry about exactly how the machines and / or software worked.
As others have said, Dick’s refusal implies he had another agenda.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 9:09 pm
I certainly had hoped that Dick Smith would have been able to attend a test but agree completely with him about his necessity to have the test all open.
In my mind it fits with his view that the test will be hidden to such an extent that no one really knows the outcome but we only have a few days to go before the 1st test and next feeding frenzy.
The introduction of NDAs to cover tests that are supposed to prove the Hyperion works, is actually laughable in light of the accusations of fraud. The last thing a serious test wants to hide is who did the tests & what were their qualifications & what were the results. And conducted by a non-vested 3rd party.
More …
Doug M
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 9:20 pm
Just out of curiousity, why do you assume the testers will be undisclosed, since Defkalion has previously indicated they would be disclosed, and the results undisclosed since Defkalion has said that the testers would be free to disclose the results.
An NDA dosesn’t mean everything that happened would be secret.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 9:25 pm
I am happy to let this unfold as it will but believe me – at the end of it I am confident I will be writing yet another blog for history on how a Greek company took Europe for millions and a crowd stood by cheering while they did it.
The Hyperion is not the LENR miracle we are all craving for.
Rossi won’t sue Defkalion because there isn’t anything to sue them for. Rossi is merely in a race to get what agency fees he can in competition to Defkalion
There is no Rossi eCat factory. There is no home eCat.
There is no tooth fairy and there is no Santa.
Cheers
Doug
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 9:49 pm
Gee Doug:
Most here know what Rossi looks like. I really have little hope for him or Defkalion but you really don’t have to go Postal on us.
RyanWLocke
February 22, 2012 at 2:37 am
Good stuff.
Methusela
February 21, 2012 at 9:39 pm
Yes, NDAs are merely designed to protect trade secrets.
Presumbably Mr Smith didn’t even see the details of the NDA before dismissing it?
CuriousChris
February 21, 2012 at 10:23 pm
So you have seen the NDA then. Please do share.
I have been harping on that DGT wrote into the test parameters a clause that could and I reiterate *could* be expanded into a complete embargo on publishing of all test results.
The line of text in the test plan indicates The tester can release their results in parallel with DGT.
from the test plan
Test results may be published by the independent evaluators in the media they choose and in our site, jointly.
If that is included in the test agreement. then all Defkalion needs to do is refuse to publish the results. If someone publishes without their permission outside of the contract they will be subject to a potentially very costly lawsuit.
Apart from the usual “Rah Rah Defkalion” boys no reasonable response has been given to that point.
Given that possibility it would be easy to prevent the publishing of unfavourable tests.
It may be that this level of paranoia is not written in to the contract. But then it may be.
Methusela
February 21, 2012 at 10:50 pm
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Of course I haven’t seen the NDA and, presumably neither have you.
If the meaning of this:
Test results may be published by the independent evaluators in the media they choose and in our site, jointly.
is ambiguous (granted, slightly).
The following is not:
In any case, after the test all the above structured protocol filled with data and remarks has to be published by the testers in the media they choose. We are going to release it also through our site upon signatures of the testers and the observers on it.
Timar
February 22, 2012 at 3:42 pm
Methusa – he certainly is!
Lu
February 21, 2012 at 9:22 pm
“The last thing a serious test wants to hide is who did the tests & what were their qualifications & what were the results.”
Where did you see this? From day one PDGT has stated that the tests procedures will be published, the identities of the testers will be published (unless the testers don’t want this), and the results will be published (once they are singed off/certified). PDGT has stated that this is a condition of the test! PDGT wants to publish these test results for publicity reasons and is why they are doing the tests in the first place.
The NDA is for product technical and company information that may be inadvertently disclosed during the tests. During the test the testers will have opportunities to discover things that PDGT does not want to have disclosed. There is nothing wrong or unusual about this and is standard business practice.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 9:34 pm
But we have not been told who is doing the testing have we
We have *no* idea other than the 1st tester it is ‘the Greek govt’ ?
No one has been able to check or challenge the credentials of the so called testers have they !
Doug M
Lu
February 21, 2012 at 9:46 pm
The test starts Friday. PDGT has stated that the test procedures and identity of the testers will be published before the test starts. Why are you jumping the gun here?
Also if you ever worked for a company or organization that did product/acceptance testing you would know that these tests don’t always start on time, for any number of reasons. If the test schedule slips a few days or even weeks that is fairly normal and no cause for alarm. I’m not saying it will or it’s a good thing or that I’m expecting it but if it does you will be premature in declaring it a fraud. Do you understand this?
What I cannot understand in all of this is how you and Dick Smith can make such blatantly false statements and/or draw such unsupportable conclusions. It’s clear that your attempts are not working and frankly are quite laughable. What are you true motivations here?
Methusela
February 21, 2012 at 10:15 pm
I think the true motivations are quite clear – to discredit Rossi and Defkalion based on the history of previous face-value similarities to claims that have been discredited in the past, without assessing the current evidence or history of the underlying effect.
This kind of reaction might be driven by close personal experience of being conned, grandstanding on behalf of DSI or the Australian sceptics; or just because he’s bored.
I’d be annoyed with those people (in the Aussie Sceptics?) who advised me that I should behave this way.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 10:15 pm
Jumping the gun !!! LOL
So no one gets to do due diligence on the ids & quals of the testers prior to the actual day or just a few hours before it !!!.
We just see that brushed under the rug in the feeding frenzy we all know will take place as we speculate on the test results.
Sorry but this is laughable.
Doug M
Quax
February 21, 2012 at 9:30 pm
DSM, I have to respectfully disagree. A NDA could for instance demand that if any details about the nano structure of NI fuel are learned or any particular critical fuel geometry that this information is to be treated as a trade secret.
This is just a top off the head example of numerous sensible conditions that could be spelled out in a NDA. Conditions that are completely tangential to the calorimetric measurements.
If Defkalion has IP to protect it is quite natural that they want to have a NDA for the aspects of their invention that they don’t want to disclose.
This can be handled quite transparently as long as the NDA is made public and the results of the COP measurements are not affected.
In my mind Dick Smith should have tried a bit harder and have a lawyer involved in ironing this out. If nothing else the way that Defkalion wants the NDA to be worded would give additional clues if this is a scam or not.
The way he came, saw and then skedaddled really doesn’t make any sense to me.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 9:20 pm
Here are some POVs that have emerged over the past weeks that are very telling (some are rather stunning ) …
> If the Hyperion works then it stands to reason the eCat works
> Who cares if Defkalion ‘borrowed’ the technology from Rossi, as long as they bring it to market
> LENR is real and any ‘attacks’ on the Ecat or hyperion are ‘attacks’ on LENR
> Defkalion are so polite and pleasant to deal with how could they possibly be dishonest (the blinkers are on at this point in regard to ‘borrowed’ eCat technology for which nothing got paid)
> Anyone who seeks to take away my dream is an enemy who must be attacked
> You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time
Doug M
PS the one that amuses me most are the comments about Defkalion being so nice yet it is 100% clear they stole from Rossi & paid nothing !!! – that is the real stunner – if you smile and laugh while you rape me I’ll forgive you !.
JNewman
February 21, 2012 at 9:28 pm
Careful, people are going to start calling you a hard skeptic. They liked you much more when they thought you were a soft and fuzzy skeptic.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 9:37 pm
LOL
I always raised the question of the ‘miracle’ hyperion from the 1st time I saw it was from a partnership between Rossi and Defkalion
IBM to 3rd party partnerships was one of my responsibilities at IBM in the Asia Pacific region and I learned to know a lulu when I see one & the falling out between Defkalion and Rossi was a classic.
Doug M
Quax
February 21, 2012 at 9:37 pm
Don’t really think it is news that the discussions on this board are often borderline delusional on both ends of the spectrum. The nastiness directed towards Dick Smith was also not pretty.
But this really doesn’t have any bearing on the fact that the stated reason’s for Dick Smith’s aborted testing offer just don’t add up in my opinion.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 9:43 pm
Quax
And that is a fair POV. The NDAs do more to prove allegations of fraud than to disprove them.
Here we are waiting with bated breath for the arrival of the single greatest innovation since fire & we are asked to ‘trust us’ by the smiling friendly faces of an executive team that stole another company’s ip (I now believe firmly they only stole Rossi’s scam, there was no working commercial ready LENR device to steal).
Doug M
Dick Smith
February 21, 2012 at 9:24 pm
The other unfortunate situation that has occured through my offer and the resultant publicity is that there are now lots more doubters.
I am truly sorry that some have been forced to use the rational side of their brain for a change,not just the emotive,” wouldn’t it be great if it was true side”.
By the way , after two or three weeks experience on this matter I have never been more convinced that this is another Firepower International or Moller type scam.
Yes. There maybe something in this LENRs thing but this ain’t it I am afraid.
Keep being deluded folks. It’s a human condition that many of us suffer from.
And my $5000 offer still remains re the lost Ecat that ran the heating at Rossis factory for two years at a 90% power saving. Then again if you would believe that you would believe anything!
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 9:38 pm
Personally, I think you would have been more successful with that rational side issue if you hadn’t been so flaky about the offer you made. At this point you may be correct about Defkalion but I can’t tell through all your BS.
Peter Roe
February 21, 2012 at 9:39 pm
Thanks for the entertainment during a ‘dead patch’, Dick. Now that’s over, I for one will put my tinfoil hat back on and wait to see what DGT’s tests bring. G’day!
Methusela
February 21, 2012 at 9:42 pm
Could you please tell us the type of content the NDA was designed to prevent you from talking about?
Quax
February 21, 2012 at 9:45 pm
Certainly wished you would have taken this a bit further i.e. demand to see what kind of NDA Defkalion has in mind. I think such a document could have been quite instructive to infer if this is a scam or not. If their terms were to infringe on the release of the calorimetric test data then you’d have a very strong argument.
And strong arguments is what is needed. So far you simply antagonized the believers. I am pretty sure that fence sitters like me firmly remained unmoved. It’s not like we’d be throwing any investment money their way unless we have a conclusive test. My hope was that your involvement would get us there. So I am quite disappointed that this won’t happen.
C M Edwards
February 21, 2012 at 9:59 pm
“I am truly sorry that some have been forced to use the rational side of their brain for a change,not just the emotive, ‘wouldn’t it be great if it was true side’.”
Aw, that’s OK, Dick. Don’t feel too bad.
GreenWin
February 21, 2012 at 10:21 pm
That’s spelled, CLOWNERY.
Bob D
February 21, 2012 at 10:07 pm
Even though I always had certain doubts, I believed Rossi had something because I never could figure out his financial angle to this mess. Smith provided that piece to the puzzle at the same time the eCat story began to unravel. 1 MW plant never shipped, electric power in not properly monitored, and Rossi looking overdressed in a factory heated by fusion technology… He should be strutting around in shorts and tee shirt for the Love of money.
Bob D
February 21, 2012 at 10:16 pm
I forgot to mention I also consider Rossi a genius. He is very adept at explaining away tricky details in convincing fashion. He can use facts to spin the truth to fit his scam like a great master. In his own way he is rather remarkable. I’ll bet he was the first kid in the neighborhood to own a magic set.
C M Edwards
February 21, 2012 at 10:20 pm
Down here in the southern US, where temperatures reach 40 C every summer, I can’t recall ever seeing a company exec escorting visiting customer inspectors around in shorts and a t-shirt.
I do remember the last time someone ran a gas genny indoors around here, but I try not to speak ill of the dead.
Bob D
February 22, 2012 at 3:51 am
Understood. How many of these company execs claimed they had developed a new type of fire and tasked themselves with bringing the technology to a needy world??
Rends
February 21, 2012 at 10:25 pm
“I am truly sorry that some have been forced to use the rational side of their brain for a change,not just the emotive” – Dick Smith
I think it is enough !
What Dick Smith does not understand, because he is intellectually not capable to the see the facts, is that there is no risk at all for the
pensioners and poor people he wants to protect. (for their protection, he is claiming responsibility completly on his own)
Here in this “Forum” are almost exclusively people from all over the world, who are highly educated and smart. Those ultimately want to discuss at a high intellectual level about LENR and also about that what is happening in the market.
Neither Rossi nor Defkalion attempt to get money from private individuals, both reject this even expressly. Customers that pre-order an e-Cat do not need afford a down payment, nor sign any Contact. Even for the 1 MW plant is the money on an approved escrow account and has to be payed, when the customer confirms the function and performance of the plant.
And the licenses (if there are those) go to companies, or business people who first have enough capital and second know very well what they are doing and they certainly do not need the guardian angel named Dick Smith.
I was thinking all the time – Dick Smith Show – I got it all so familiar. Here comes someone who claims to be responsible for everything, takes over the leadership, distributes some theories, then wins the trust of the people and on this basis becomes a rich and honorable man. Nearly all people love him, the savior, but very few realise that their is a dark side and they are running after the wrong person, one that exploits the lower emotions of humans to gain power and make money.
______________________________
“Here we were talking about problems which are facing our planet, but people weren’t talking about the most obvious problem – too many people.” – Dick Smith
“So the wealthy will get more. But what about the average wage and salary earner and retiree? Possibly over 80% of our population?” – Dick Smith
“I have a feeling it’s all “down hill” from now for most Australians as the population increases.” – Dick Smith
“I think unrestrained population growth will make virtually every problem more difficult.” – Dick Smith
“But typical Australian families do have a view on population numbers. Most Aussie families decide on an optimum number” – Dick Smith
“We are not a country who makes small gadgets in factories where you need lots of workers.” – Dick Smith
http://www.dicksmithpopulation.com/
“Smith founded Dick Smith Foods in 1999, marketed as a crusade against foreign ownership of Australian food producers, particularly Arnott’s Biscuits, which in 1997 became a wholly owned subsidiary of the Campbell Soup Company. Dick Smith Foods only sells foods produced in Australia by Australian-owned companies.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Smith_(entrepreneur)
… and of course, Dick Smith is in a position to decide who is a valuable Australian and who is not and has no right to life or get born, because he or she (in Dick Smith theory)is ‘too much’ for ‘his’ country and the world in general. Dick Smith is also able to decide this for the whole world, who is and who is not worth living. And he spread his theories in countless magazines, books and over the Internet so that every ‘true’ Australians can read his theories.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Geographic)
I’ve already heard this kind of theories a long time ago!
“The Nazi state was interested in both a quantitative and a qualitative population policy. These included measures to control the type and extent of the population according to the Nazi theories.”
“Through magazines, posters, calendars, at rallies and in the classroom this ideas became widespread.”
“The People’s State must ensure that only people who are healthy have children. There is only one shame: If you have a disease or defect, to put children into this world.” – Adolf Hilter – Mein Kampf
“In his first edition of Mein Kampf, Hitler stated that the destruction of the weak and sick is far more humane than their protection. However, apart from his allusion to humane treatment, Hitler saw a purpose in destroying “the weak” in order to provide the proper space and purity for the strong.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf#Antisemitism
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialistische_Rassenhygiene
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialistische_Rassenhygiene#Rassenhygiene_und_Hitlers_Mein_Kampf
______________________________
Where is now exactly the difference between Adolf Hitler and Dick Smith theories and what would Hilter have done, if any unworthy foreigners are trying to change ‘his’ world? Isn’t a bounty call to find the traitor the logical consequence?
Hilter was firmly convinced to be a good person, good German and the savior of the world, unfortunately there were (before world war II) very few who opposed him, just because Hiltler had power and a lot of money (not at least from the Jews he had killed and 700 Millions for free disposal from the German industry) and millions of Germans believed in his words and he needed to prove anything, his word was law.
Todays Nazis in German always roar “Deutschland den Deutschen, Ausländer raus!” (Germany to the Germans, Foreigners out!) and they send their killing squads to kill those foreigners. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosphorus_serial_murders … How far would Dick Smith go to protect ‘his’ Australia? He is obviously quite willing to pay for bounties!
I do not know whether Dick Smith is a ‘real’ Nazi (what ever that means) or not (one can not read minds), but at least he behaves exactly the same way, and for his behavior here, exist no excuse!
For those who are able to understand German, a documentaion from the German state TV “Hitler and the money”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkCqSJf8VoU
“Principiis obsta. Sero medicina parata, cum mala per longas convaluere moras.” Ovid
Brad Arnold
February 21, 2012 at 11:18 pm
Mr Smith,
I am puzzled why you think Defkalion (or Rossi for that matter) is so likely fraudulent.
Sorry, but convoluted frauds involving lots of parties is the least likely. So are 3 groups of science observers too stupid to recognize an obvious fraud. Also, there are enough other NiH results which suggest a LENR reaction.
This phenomenon (LENR) has been confirmed in hundreds of published scientific papers: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtallyofcol.pdf
“Over 2 decades with over 100 experiments worldwide indicate LENR is real, much greater than chemical…” –Dennis M. Bushnell, Chief Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center
As his claim that he is getting heat from Ni + H is no longer extraordinary, Rossi’s claim is much less extraordinary. He is now only claiming that he has optimized a phenomenon that is known to science.
duecat
February 22, 2012 at 6:07 am
Brad_ Thanks, well said.
Timar
February 22, 2012 at 3:29 pm
I have to agree with you Mr. Smith. Your involvement really lifted my own appreciation of the brain’s rational side – providing such a vivid example of the embarrassing impression one gives if that side has become atrophied.
M. Hat
February 21, 2012 at 9:30 pm
Quote: “Let’s hope they produce the goods over the coming weeks.”
Uh-uh. Not the “coming weeks”. The great test by a reputable Greek scientific team is scheduled for Friday, the 24th of February, and I’m waiting with bated breath.
JNewman
February 21, 2012 at 9:37 pm
The test will take at least 4 days, not counting the time needed to swap out active cores and such. Then there is data analysis, Monte Carlo simulations, snazzing up the graphics, arguments over draft language, legal and administrative permissions, translation from Greek, arguments over font selection… I would not count on any real news until perhaps April.
RonB
February 22, 2012 at 4:55 am
Oh great.. probably April 1st.
AB
February 21, 2012 at 9:39 pm
You’ll be disappointed then. Each test lasts several days and then we can expect another day at least until the data is analyzed and re-checked multiple times to exclude mistakes.
John Milstone
February 21, 2012 at 9:35 pm
Have they actually identified a specific group or individual for the test?
Last I heard, it was “the government”.
Stephen
February 21, 2012 at 11:57 pm
Do you watch TV? Do you think the Greek “government” cares about that right now?
John Milstone
February 22, 2012 at 1:28 am
Presumably, the part of “the government” that deals with testing cold fusion devices is separate from the part that deals with rioting in the streets.
Stephen T.
February 22, 2012 at 1:34 am
You must be joking if you think “they” don’t care about “that”. If by “they” you mean the Greek government and “that” means LENR then of course they care! Sure I am feeding the skeptics here but the Greeks would be nicely served if this works out because they have most of the worlds known nickel reserves and may put some people to work as well. It is a positive for them. Not a game changer any more than for the rest of us, but a positive development. They care.
Dick Smith
February 21, 2012 at 9:37 pm
There will never be a proper test. Surely you understand that!
AB
February 21, 2012 at 9:40 pm
Ironic.
Methusela
February 21, 2012 at 9:47 pm
A while ago, someone posted this link: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Incorrect_predictions
I think that one would be a prime candidate for inclusion there, in the future.
psi
February 21, 2012 at 9:52 pm
No kidding.
The “skeptic” speaks. He looked into his crystal ball and it told him the future.
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 9:42 pm
Certainly not pursuant to your non offer.
Methusela
February 21, 2012 at 9:44 pm
Yes, certainly not via your offer. That was a shame, a very big wasted opportunity!
Quax
February 21, 2012 at 9:55 pm
Even if you entered into this with the purest of intentions the irony is that you just antagonized the believers. They will most certainly not understand that there will never be a proper test.
Based on your own experience the pattern of fraudulent behavior is so obvious to you that this is all but a settled matter in your mind.
But to persuade and make your case the history of how this story unfolded is not enough, as people here clearly lack the understanding of how you came to this conclusion.
That is why it would have been helpful to see and disclose what kind of conditions Defkalion was to set in a NDA.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 10:09 pm
Read the Moller story I posted yesterday incl the links and tell me if you think there *might* be a parallel. The way Moller got started and the way Rossi got started are very similar except Moller never went to court for any reason in regard to his 1st venture – he only got sanctioned by the US Securities & Exchange commission in 2003.
Most of us who followed the Moller saga from its early days think he started out with good intent. Rossi the same.
Moller is still going at it & when he left the US with his tail between his legs he 1st announced a partnership in Korea but then never spoke of it again but now talks about a joint venture in China. As I said yesterday “lucky them”.
Back in the US people still dream of owning a skycar.
Doug M
PS IIRC Dick Smith was at one time the chairman (Dick ?) of Australia’s CASA (Civil Aviation Safety Authority). Those who want to write DS off really don’t grasp where he is coming from. Too many are too busy being offended by his bluntness !!!.
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 10:21 pm
Doug;
I don’t mind Dick’s bluntness or his skeptical opinion. Even though he treats everyone here as delusional. What bothers me is his hypocrasy. Defkalion was not the one that refused testing, as far as I can tell it was Dick that refused testing.
I know he is certain Defkalion would not have agreed to tests, but the rub is he was the one that eliminated the possibility.
C M Edwards
February 21, 2012 at 10:27 pm
Ransom,
Has DGT announced that they are not proceding with their Friday test schedule?
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 10:42 pm
The issue was that Defkalion added a new condition that had never been brought up before – the NDA & Dick was being asked to sign it when all along Dick’s position was the need for openness.
One scenario Dick was keen to avoid was signing an NDA (a gag order) then the Defkalion folk telling potential investors behind the scenes to potential investors “look even Dick Smith who was so skeptical has seen it in operation & accepts it”.
Dick’s requirement for total openness incl of all communications, is the least he we should be offered.
Step back & again ask yourself “Is this about to be the greatest event for mankind in the past umpteen 1000 years of our history” – if yes then openess of all aspects of the Defkalion claims is paramount and essential.
What I see is a joke and lost of people defending it. You won’t find very many LENR researchers or scientists here defending Defkalion’s approach.
Doug M
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 10:46 pm
As far as I know the tests are going forward on Friday. I was refering to the ones Dick Smith wanted performed.
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 11:00 pm
Doug:
Dick Smith is a business man. He has made a fortune apparantly in business. LENR may be the savior of mankind but it is also a potential money maker.
Are you really saying Defkalion should just give it away to society, no strings attached. If so, you need to get a reality check. Smith got into this orginally because someone wnated him to invest. That’s what rich people do with their money and they do it to make more money. If Dick Smith thought LENR had merit and Rossi had merit (he would have invested) and had invested in the device, I assure you Dick Smith would not have agreed to give away the technology to humanity. (No matter what you think of him)
Methusela
February 21, 2012 at 11:05 pm
dsm,
Please could you give details of this ‘gag order’?
I would like to know whether you are misrepresenting the extent of the agreement.
JNewman
February 21, 2012 at 11:10 pm
He who claims to have the goose that lays golden eggs should not give away the goose, but if they want us to believe them, they should show us some eggs.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 11:35 pm
Ransom
Your quote …
Are you really saying Defkalion should just give it away to society, no strings attached. If so, you need to get a reality check. Smith got into this orginally because someone wnated him to invest. That’s what rich people do with their money and they do it to make more money. If Dick Smith thought LENR had merit and Rossi had merit (he would have invested) and had invested in the device, I assure you Dick Smith would not have agreed to give away the technology to humanity. (No matter what you think of him)
*****************
Never ever said anywhere Defkalion should give away a LENR ???
I am saying their claims just like Rossis, when it comes to a potentially world changing technology, must be tested in an independent and open manner especially when they have been accused of fraud.
That is entirely different to your postulation ??? – where did you see any words of mine to justify that POV ???
Cheers
Doug M
PS
Rossi got into a mess because he wouldn’t let any independent 3rd party test his eCats.
Uni Bolongna
Uni Upssala
NASA
Uni of anywhere
???
Timar
February 22, 2012 at 3:55 pm
It’s good to see that Mr. Smith has such a loyal servant who is dutifully defending his impeccable behavior and supreme rationalism.
C M Edwards
February 21, 2012 at 10:06 pm
I will look to have a better understanding of it by February 28.
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 10:13 pm
Honestly Dick:
I know you are worth a lot of money but did you ever consider renting yourself out as a scam sniffer. You have only been involved in this a few weeks, it would save most of us a lot of time and effort.
I got another one for you if you don’t mind.
What about this one?
http://www.nanospireinc.com/Fusion.html
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 10:19 pm
Ransompw
Naughty!, that borders on insult & you have been pretty good up to now.
Rational discourse achieves more than degeneration into rock throwing
Cheers
Doug M
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 10:26 pm
I dislike people who think too much of themselves. Personally, I think Dick has a bit too much of Rich Man’s arrogance.
I don’t mind debating issues with him and I too have serious doubts about Rossi and defkalion but Dick need to be condescending to me or the other decent people on this board no matter how deluded he thinks they are. He doesn’t know me and he sure doesn’t impress me.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 10:35 pm
Fair comment but don’t let anger cloud your view of him.
Cheers
Doug M
Stephen T.
February 22, 2012 at 1:36 am
Patience, Dick.
RyanWLocke
February 22, 2012 at 2:49 am
And you will never know for sure. You had a golden opportunity and turned it down.
C M Edwards
February 21, 2012 at 9:51 pm
E1 – Scamming visiting dignitaries is interesting, actual LENR doubly so. Anything that can attract all the people on Ian Bryce’s e-cat participants list from all around the world is by definition “interesting”.
F2 – Why not? The only concrete evidence against it is that Rossi is still in possession of the equipment. Warranty repairs happen, so maybe this did, too.
G2 – If he’s got a few of his old e-cats lying around, he’s got enough for typical certification testing. But there’s an important caution: To get it certified as a boiler, he only needs to show it makes heat and won’t blow up. The typical boiler certification is ultimately more concerned with safety than the type of heat source. He could have certs in hand without cold fusion ever even been mentioned.
H4 – There is no evidence that this is in progress, or ever will be. Unlike items F and G, Rossi won’t need it to sell product, so there’s no reason to accept it as a prerequisite for anything else. It is a standalone “Rossi Said”, so I rank it accordingly with a “4″ on the ecatnews BS meter.
C M Edwards
February 21, 2012 at 10:01 pm
Oops.
Ahem… that was @JNewmann, Re: above post.
X-prize
February 21, 2012 at 10:01 pm
What makes all of you so sure that Defkalion and Rossi have truly parted ways?
Has it ever occurred to you all that this supposed conflict between them is just another one of their smoke screens?
Look at how many of you are saying if one works the other works? Why do you keep saying that – are you paid to say that by Rossi and company?
harry
February 21, 2012 at 10:12 pm
From JONP:
Dear Ed:
The COP is 6, whatever the mode.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Mhh I wonder about COP 6 from Rossi. (IF it works and) Defkalion got the recepie somehow from Rossi or based on Rossis idea. Why do they get (or claim to) a much better COP. Is it because he is urged to by someone to be more dependant to the grid (~1.X KW from the grid) ? Or because of savety? But why can Defkalion do it probably save?
Rossis seams to be not as good as the the hyperion but 10 times cheaper in the beginning and without the need for a hydrogen bottle.
I also wonder how the marked could look like in the future…
Its cloudy.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 10:29 pm
Rossi originally claimed results for COP over 20 (28 IIRC).
Capping it at 6 was supposed to be his way of getting stable results vs repeated meltdowns if he ran the reactors hotter.
All along there has been the question of stability of the process. Powdered Ni helps create a larger surface area for the supposed SPP effect as the LENR process only seems to occur on the surface of a hydrated metal not inside it (in this case the Ni lattice).
It is pretty well accepted that to keep the LENR SPP activity going, heat and or vibration needs to be applied evenly & in a powdered metal that is not so easy. The energy trigger may actually be in the form of bursts of high frequencies targeting the hydrated Ni such that the vibrations trigger the SPP effect which releases the energy. IIRC The vibrations (oscillations) are believed to be what allows the transmutation to take place close to the surface of the metal.
So a conclusion is that packing too much powdered Ni into one reactor produces greater energy output but increases the instability and the likelihood of a meltdown.
Doug M
Al Potenza
February 21, 2012 at 10:34 pm
Here’s a thought. Nothing Rossi has ever shown or said suggests how he might be varying and controlling COP. The ecat has a chamber with a catalyst and two heaters, one in the middle and one around the cooling water jacket (which in itself is strange). How does one control COP or much of anything else exactly?
There is nothing in the device to control except the heater power and coolant flow. And all the control of both has been entirely by hand in all of Rossi’s experiments except maybe the October 28 claimed test of the megawatt plant.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 10:48 pm
COP of this kind of device will really be controlled in 2 ways
1) By the surface area of the hydrated metal in the core (powdered Ni greatly increases that)
2) (my understanding) is by the regulating of the heat generated. This in turn can be by cooling the reactor to below its effective self-sustain mode or by controlling the vibration of the lattice (but on this aspect I am lees clear as to how doing that can bring the reactor below its self-sustain temp.
Doug M
Al Potenza
February 21, 2012 at 10:56 pm
OK, thanks. Regulation by surface area can’t be done during a run, I don’t think.
Regulation by temperature would require a sensor. Early ecats didn’t have one. In fact I don’t recall an interior temperature sensor in any ecat prior to the October 6. All they had was a thermocouple downstream of the core. And it was never connected to a controller.
Regulation by vibration requires something to vibrate. That also did not appear in ecats until maybe October 6.
Whatever if anything Rossi was regulating, during all public tests before October 6, it was not a dynamic type of regulation. From the descriptions I read of these tests, I am reasonably sure of it.
dsm
February 22, 2012 at 12:10 am
AL
Re controlling the eCat (& thus hyperion)
I asked Andrea if his LENR fitted within the Widom-Larsen theory that describes the SPP effect See theory below – he told me no that his theory is different.
So that means it is guesswork as to if it is the same SPP effect.
We really are too muc in the dar to accurately guess what happens.
Doug M
PS NASA, based on W-L theory, patented this …
US application 20110255645 dated October 20, 2011, lists Joseph M. Zawodny as the inventor of something called the “Method for Producing Heavy Electrons.”
*******************************
By Widom and Larsen:
Allan Widom and Lewis Larsen propose that, in condensed matter, local breakdown of the Born-Oppenheimer approximation occurs in homogeneous, many-body, collectively oscillating patches of protons, deuterons, or tritons found on surfaces of fully loaded metallic hydrides; Born-Oppenheimer breakdown enables a degree of electromagnetic coupling of surface proton/deuteron/triton oscillations with those of nearby surface plasmon polariton (SPP) electrons. Such coupling between collective oscillations creates local nuclear-strength electric fields in the vicinity of the patches.
SPP electrons bathed in such high fields increase their effective mass, thus becoming heavy electrons. Widom and Larsen propose that heavy SPP electrons can react directly with protons, deuterons, or tritons located in surface patches through an inverse beta decay process that results in simultaneous collective production of one, two, or three neutrons, respectively, and a neutrino.
Collectively produced neutrons are created ultra-cold; that is, they have ultra-low momentum and extremely large quantum mechanical wavelengths and absorption cross-sections compared to “typical” neutrons at thermal energies.
Finally, Widom and Larsen propose that heavy SPP patch electrons are uniquely able to immediately convert almost any locally produced or incident gamma radiation directly into infrared heat energy, thus providing a form of built-in gamma shielding for LENR nuclear reactions.
dsm
February 22, 2012 at 12:31 am
I did find this theory that is likely the basis for Rossi’s eCat LENR (Prof Stremmenos is the author) …
*************************************
The Principles of the Reaction
Professor Christos Stremmenos has provided a reasonable theory on how cold fusion can work with Hydrogen and Nickel. He supported the Andrea Rossi and Sergio Focardi theory which also says that the Nickel nuclei being a crystal structure fuses with the Hydrogen nuclei which diffuse into the Nickel nuclei. Coulomb forces are taken over by the resultant nuclear forces. Nickel acts as a catalyst and decomposes the bi-molecules of Hydrogen breaking them into single molecules. At the same time, these Hydrogen molecules come into contact with the surface of the Nickel atoms. The electrons in Hydrogen atoms get deposited on the Nickel atom in the Fermi Band and diffuse deeper into the crystal structure in Nickel atoms. This is how the Nickel Hydrogen fusion occurs.
Professor Christos Stremmenos also believes that the electrons in the central cavity of the Nickel crystal result in a shielding force. This shield holds on to the Hydrogen or deuterium nuclei within the Nickel atom. Stremmenos suggests that this serves as the source of energy for cold fusion reaction. Subsequently, the captured Hydrogen atoms within Nickel result in exothermic nuclear reactions which produce isotopes which are by products of the Nickel Hydrogen fusion.
Furthermore, Professor Christos Stremmenos further takes a qualitative approach to explaining this theory as a physicist. He used three theories to explain:
Bohr’s Hydrogen Atom
The Hydrogen atom, referred to as Bohr continues to remain in a stationary state as long as there is no energy applied to it. This is explained by the in-phase wave (de Broglie), which remains a circular path of the orbiting electron. The radius of the circular path is determined by fundamental energy states of the atom.
Once the Hydrogen atoms come into contact with the Nickel nuclei, they abandon their stationary state and let go of their electrons. The electrons are deposited into the conductivity band of the Nickel atom and they readily diffuse into the Nickel crystalline structure. If there are tetrahedral or octahedral spaces in the crystal lattice they will occupy these void spaces. These deposited electrons create a conductivity electron cloud which is distributed in the energy bands (Fermi Band). This allows the electrons to move freely in throughout the metallic mass. This is where the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle comes in.
Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle
The non localized electrons which are in a dynamic state are in a state of uncertainty which is explained by Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. This probably lasts for 10 to 18 seconds and a series of neutral mini Hydrogen atoms could be formed. These could be in an unstable state, and of various sizes and at different energy levels while they are within the Fermi Band.
The neutral mini Hydrogen atoms have high energy and short wave length which is due to the cyclic orbits (de Broglie). These are captured by the nuclear reaction within the crystal structure and this occurs within 10 to 20 seconds. The Hydrogen atoms then fuse with the Nickel nuclei. However, they must have a dimension smaller than 10ˆ to 14ˆ. The assumption here is that only a few atoms will satisfy this de Broglie condition.
High Speed Nuclear Reactions
Andrea Rossi and Sergio Focardi proposed a mechanism which is verified by the mass spectroscopy data. It predicts that the Nickel nuclei changes into unstable copper nuclei which are its isotopes. However, Professor Christos Stremmenos confirms that the trapped mini Hydrogen atoms (?-) within the Nickel nuclei undergo “in-situ annihilation” which was predicted by Andrea Rossi and Sergio Focardi. It causes decay ?+ of the new copper nuclei being produced. The ?+ and ?-annihilation leads to emission of high energy photons.
Therefore, conclusively this is the best explanation of how cold fusion can work with Hydrogen and Nickel. As impossible or against the laws of nuclear physics as it may seem; the cold fusion reaction is real.
Dennis Moore
February 22, 2012 at 1:23 am
I thought yesterday Dick Smith suggested that Stremmenos was not qualified to give opinions on a LENR device and when I called him on it you also questioned the qualifications of Stremmenos????
dsm
February 22, 2012 at 1:44 am
Dennis
Yes so I did some homework & posted what I found (You could have too
).
So yes 10 points to you for sticking up for Prof Stremmenos. It encouraged me too look deeper.
Thanks
Doug M
dsm
February 22, 2012 at 2:47 am
One more theory worth adding now that the other 2 are here.
This is mills hydrino theory which is very interesting but not widely accepted (yet).
Mills is CEO of BlackLight Power & one interesting scientist.
See a vizualization in the youtube link at the bottom.
(from wiki)
Mills first announced his hydrino state theory on April 25, 1991 in a press conference in Lancaster, as an explanation for the cold fusion phenomena that had been revealed in 1989. According to Mills, no fusion was actually happening in the cells: all the effects would be caused by the hydrogen atoms which shrunk as they fell to a state lower than the ground state of hydrogen. The increased proximity between the shrunk atoms would cause them to fuse sporadically. Some of those atoms would be deuterium atoms (a hydrogen atom with one extra neutron), which would explain why there were occasional readings of neutrons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI1NwQNijSw&feature=related
RyanWLocke
February 22, 2012 at 2:55 am
Could regulation by vibration be accomplished by RF?
Dick Smith
February 21, 2012 at 10:14 pm
Quad if by antagonizing the believers I can save just one potential investor from losing their money it is worth it in my view.
I just wonder how many of the anonymous posting believers have actually invested money in one of the dealerships?
Could be so for all I know and they are desperately hoping it will all come good in the end. But it won’t
Methusela
February 21, 2012 at 10:17 pm
Actually, what you are doing is foolish and could cause great damage to your reputation.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 10:31 pm
Dick’s Reputation won’t be damaged in Australia – not by 1 mm.
Your post really smacks of desperate wishful thinking. You clearly are one of the offended.
Doug M
Methusela
February 21, 2012 at 11:10 pm
I don’t offend easily, so no, I’m not
As Ransom posted up above, Dick’s attitude on this forum is similar to that of a man entering a pet-shop and kicking all the puppies…
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 11:27 pm
LOL
Now that makes me angry – where is this cad ?
I can see all the puppies – hordes of them
Doug
Methusela
February 21, 2012 at 10:20 pm
Let’s have a vote then.
Anyone invested anything? If you have, then you’re daft, at this stage.
AB
February 21, 2012 at 10:28 pm
Nobody here has invested in the e-cat.
Millins acted on his own collecting funds in order to acquire the e-cat distribution license.
JNewman
February 21, 2012 at 10:48 pm
Since we are mostly all anonymous, how do you know that? Or are you saying that nobody anywhere has invested in the ecat? And if that is the case, how is Rossi operating his business? I don’t recall hearing that he was a man of extraordinary financial means.
Shane D.
February 21, 2012 at 11:04 pm
Were this to turn out a false lead, we deluded types have plenty of other options to feed our “desperate hope”… Nichenergy, Brillouin, Nanospire, and a growing list of notable others.
It could take years to finally have our last bit of hope dashed, but in the meantime, we’ll be having such fun.
Steven Br
February 22, 2012 at 8:26 am
Dick,
people who invest in something because of their thirst for money they don’t deserve should loose it. Because of people like that, speculative smart assess, the world is in this miserable state.
Ivy Matt
February 22, 2012 at 6:02 pm
Surely it is worth it, but I fail to see how the former (or anything else you’ve done so far) accomplishes the latter.
Blake
February 21, 2012 at 10:22 pm
So can we close the book on DGT now?
Rossi could easily have inventors syndrome but the ABSOLUTE best case scenario for DGT is they STOLE the thing off Rossi.
Case closed?
Al Potenza
February 21, 2012 at 10:36 pm
“So can we close the book on DGT now?”
Tell ya what. I’d like to wait until after they’ve done their tests and released the results and the names or organizations doing the testing. If it’s OK with you.
(if you were being sarcastic, sorry I missed it)
Blake
February 21, 2012 at 11:04 pm
That’s OK with me and I wasn’t being sarcastic more literalistic.
This is sarcasm:
They are about as unethical as Smith is a Dick.
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 10:37 pm
I hate to speculate but that isn’t the best case scenario. The best case for Defkalion is that they knew it was a HNi reactor (That isn’t really proprietary, it has been done by many), they knew it was real (So they were motivated to proceed) and after Rossi terminated his agreement with them and knowing how valuable the technology could be, hired a group of scientist to see if they could develop their own reactor and have been working on it since and only recently got the core working properly to test.
Very Very unlikely in my book, but you wanted best case scenario. Under it Rossi may have no claim.
Blake
February 21, 2012 at 10:48 pm
So the new absolute best case scenario is they pulled a microsoft?
Case closed?
Peter Roe
February 22, 2012 at 7:44 am
Case closed? – you mean like Microsoft?
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 10:53 pm
But if you read the story of the breakup of Rossi & Defkalion and the Stremmenos account it did not happen that way at all.
You are rationalizing a different scenario that is more palatable to believers but unfortunately not backed by the available facts.
I started out thinking that theme until I eventually had all the details have poste many links here in the past few days & the available facts from passi22 & PES were downright ugly.
Doug M
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 11:04 pm
Doug:
Actually it did. Stremmenos says they don’t have Rossi’s secret sauce.
His biggest complaint is that they didn’t pay Rossi when they should have and they aren’t respecting the territory agreed to.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 11:25 pm
i.e.
They were formed at the behest of Stremmenos who sought the help of his Greek govt, to be Rossi’s outlet for eCat technology but seized the whole box n dice without paying Rossi one cent
Can you see where Stremmenos’s outrage plus his use of ‘megalomania’ came from ? – I sure can.
“Why play second fiddle to Rossi when we can scam the world without him”
Doug
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 11:04 pm
Admin
I truly hope you hang onto (archive) all these posts and keep the threads intact.
I am in no doubt that very soon and also way off into the future the comments posted here will be studied by sociologists & psychologists as they research information on how communities become polarized over issues and how groups form emotional attachments to their favorite dreams and fight to defend these, even in the face of contrary evidence.
It truly is a great people ‘watching’ place
Doug M
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 11:06 pm
Actually, I think this whole thing would make a great reality TV show and the whole world could debate the issue. No doubt the Phychiatrists would have a field day.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 11:21 pm
Yup Reality TV
But, this is ‘reality blogging’ isn’t it ?
Doug M
JNewman
February 22, 2012 at 1:46 am
Actually, all of this seems like the next version of Second Life. A whole world taking place in the blogsophere. I don’t remember the last time anything happened in the actual world. I suppose the October 28 demo in Bologna was the last thing. Since then it has all been words on the internet. Oh, that’s unfair. There have also been some compelling YouTube videos.
I wonder what real people would make of all this?
Ivy Matt
February 22, 2012 at 6:09 pm
Hey, as long as were speculating, the best case for Defkalion is probably that Stremmenos secretly betrayed some of Rossi’s secrets to Defkalion, and his seeming outrage at them is actually fake (which, to me, would explain a lot).
Dick Smith
February 21, 2012 at 10:31 pm
Methusela
Protecting my reputation over the interests of genuine investors would be a selfish thing for me to do.
It is what you may do if you were in my position but why do I have to copy you?
Ransompw
February 21, 2012 at 10:39 pm
Do you honestly think there are posters here who have invested? If so, I wish they would identify themselves and what possessed them to do such a thing.
Ivy Matt
February 22, 2012 at 6:13 pm
Alas, it’s true. After all, time is money, you know.
Methusela
February 21, 2012 at 11:19 pm
I watch this because I’m interested in science and technology – if anybody came up to me and asked whether they should invest, then I’d say no. There probably aren’t many here that would disagree with me.
You have a problem though Dick, you’re a man of influence, with a lot of money. Your motive’s could be misconstrued!
You are so aggressively against this, one wonders if you really DO have a different agenda.
I’ve repeatedly asked for details of this NDA “gag order” that you were apparently asked to sign; it would be useful to see it, and what the scope was.
Timar
February 22, 2012 at 4:01 pm
I very much doubt that you will get a reply by Mr. Smith. He rarely replies to reasonable questions or suggestions.
CuriousChris
February 21, 2012 at 10:36 pm
While we are waiting for Defkalion start the tests. how about we change subjects for a bit?
I was rereading the Brillion stuff last night. they are also trying to flog rights for their own “boiler” but seem to have floundered for lack of money. Either that or they have dropped into stealth mode. Initially I wrote them off as cranks but have decided to revisit the subject.
Its an interesting read and they are far more open about what they are (were) doing and their progressive test results. While I can’t comment on their theory of operation. It sounds less crazy than axil axil’s claims about hilbert space on vortex.
Mind you in quantum mechanics crazy is the norm.
GreenWin
February 21, 2012 at 10:37 pm
I’m sorry but this link offends the rationale side:
http://www.dialadickhead.com/?p=8
And is unfair.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 10:49 pm
Kindly back off the insults.
D
CuriousChris
February 21, 2012 at 11:06 pm
Have you noticed that DSM. while abuse is common here. It only comes from one side of the table.
Its a clear ‘tell’ of the type of people that frequent this type of forum.
Of course I expect attacks for making such a statement.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 11:19 pm
Chris
I am actually in sympathy is a way. LENR is a powerful dream & I am totally hooked by its promise.
What we are seeing though is that some of us are handcuffing our faith in LENR to the claims of Rossi and Defkalion.
I still see a healthy debate in progress over if Defkalion with their vested interests in the outcome of tests and also having been accused of fraud, are truly the right people to tell us how they will conduct these tests that will “change the world as we know it” or if that should be a totally open process in the hands of 3rd parties who do not have any vested interest in a faked outcome.
Doug M
Methusela
February 21, 2012 at 11:23 pm
One side of the table? That’s quite amusing. Dick comes in, offers the puppies a nice treat (his one million AUD test) and instead gives the puppies a good kicking (grumble, grumble, NDA, no, test off).
Now THAT is rude
CuriousChris
February 22, 2012 at 12:30 am
I do not see any of dick smiths comments as denigrating of any one here. He does not beleive in Rossi or DGT that he makes plain.
But unlike others here, he has not made any personal attacks.
GreenWin
February 22, 2012 at 1:39 am
How does accusing a man of fraud (without evidence) NOT constitute a “personal attack?”
DS promised to give a million bucks to a kid who gets famous for birth control – he never did. Is that fraud?
JNewman
February 22, 2012 at 1:55 am
I believe the concept is that in the context of this blog, Rossi and the folks in Greece are public figures. In other words, since we are discussing their actions and claims, they are fair targets for criticism. I will set aside any legal technicalities of accusations of fraud as that is a separate issue.
However, what Chris was talking about was personal attacks on other posters simply because one disagrees with their views (or doesn’t like their “tone” or their use of punctuation or whatever.) Vigorous argument is healthy and highly instructive. Responding to questions or criticisms of ideas by calling people names or dismissing them by stereotyping is intellectual cowardice and not argument at all. To quote Monty Python, it isn’t an argument, it’s abuse.
If you think what somebody says is full of it, explain how or why. If you can’t, shut up.
Peace out, as the younguns say.
GreenWin
February 22, 2012 at 6:20 am
DS promised to give a million bucks to a kid who gets famous for birth control – he never did. That is fraud?
Peace out.
Harold Baker
February 21, 2012 at 10:49 pm
Dick Smith is just a grandstanding fake. Rossi saw right through him from the start. It is a pity that Defkalion wasted their precious time on him. Now please stop reporting his nonsensical babbling, and get back to real news about LENR
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 11:06 pm
HaroldBaker is just an angry true believer who lets emotion control his words.
Watch out for those double edged swords when they swing backwards it hurts
Doug M
RyanWLocke
February 22, 2012 at 12:48 am
Truth
Dave
February 21, 2012 at 11:12 pm
Harold Baker so you don’t care what’s actually true? Do you just want to read about your LENR free energy fantasy land?
C. Dedsheff
February 22, 2012 at 7:02 am
Nicely put Harold.
Peter Roe
February 22, 2012 at 7:59 am
You are absolutely right Harold. Unfortunately I don’t think there is too much chance of doing that until the DGT tests begin (or don’t). The comments by dsm and Dave amply demonstrate the kind of vacuous junk that is filling this blog in the meantime.
Brad Arnold
February 21, 2012 at 11:05 pm
I bet the main reason it is dead is that Dick Smith was only offering chump change as an incentive (considering Defkalion has reportedly sold 18 factories/territories for around a billion dollars).
If Mr Smith really felt sure that Defkalion’s claims were a fraud, then he ought to up the pot to ten million. Maybe then Defkalion would let him call the shots on the test.
BTW, for the record I think it is a big mistake for Defkalion to resist making a big circus of the whole Dick Smith million dollar challenge – while the money is chump change to Defkalion, the publicity of a successful demonstration would be invaluable for getting them on the map, and legitimizing their Hyperion LENR generator.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 11:11 pm
Brad
Spot on here “the publicity of a successful demonstration would be invaluable for getting them on the map, and legitimizing their Hyperion LENR generator.”
Again step back & consider that at face value we are being told that the greatest event since fire is about to be revealed. A change that will alter the world as we humans know it. Will change the politics of nations.
And here we are babbling among ourselves over why Defkalion should be allowed to call all the shots in whet we see & hear.
I remain stunned by our collective blindness. Lets all blame Dick Smith.
Doug M
RyanWLocke
February 21, 2012 at 11:26 pm
?
They will have all the publicity they need without somebody riding their coat tails. Testing will happen despite Mr. Smith.
I agree challenging mr. Smith the same as he has dne to dgt and Ar is acceptable but let’s not make it personal. We are adults.
dsm
February 22, 2012 at 12:01 am
We are adults. ???
I read up above we are puppies
D
JNewman
February 21, 2012 at 11:20 pm
“Defkalion has reportedly sold 18 factories/territories for around a billion dollars”
They have received a BILLION dollars for something they haven’t proved works?
Nothing to worry about there. Go about your business everyone.
Veblin
February 22, 2012 at 2:44 am
Distortion is stated and then repeated.
Veblin
February 22, 2012 at 2:50 am
So a billion dollars has not been collected because Hyperions have so far not been successfully tested.
Lu
February 21, 2012 at 11:24 pm
Why? Defkalion supposedly has 7 independent tests from internationally recognized and reputable scientific and business organizations coming up in these next few months. What value will Dick Smith add?
I have to confess, I had never heard of Dick Smith until he showed up with a link to his Wikipedia article. Frankly he reminds me a lot of Donald Trump, someone else I’ve learned to ignore. Why would his name generate any credibility, especially given the incompetence and incivility he’s demonstrated in dealing with Rossi, Defkalion, and this board.
RyanWLocke
February 21, 2012 at 11:38 pm
Your right. Zero value. I believe the only reason DGT agreed to give DS the attention he craved is because they had a strong suspicion of his credibility. Simply the bully was called out and got punked yo.
dsm
February 21, 2012 at 11:44 pm
Lu
Just forget Dick Smith & use the brain god gave you to look at what is happening here.
Please do me a favour & answer these points 1 by 1
- Is a commercial LENR device a world changing technology
- Will it change society as it is spread
- Will it change the political structure of the world
- Should any claims that follow from the above, by anyone saying they have this technology, only be tested under the control and direction of the claimant ???
The last question is the $64k one.
Everyone seems to be treating this potentially world shattering event like it is just a new brand of energy drink we are squabbling over and the Pepsi version tastes better than coke (or the reverse).
Doug M
Stephen
February 22, 2012 at 12:08 am
Pepsi. All the way.
DSM, would you happen to own a (many?) Geiger Counter?
Lu
February 22, 2012 at 12:12 am
Yes, Yes, Yes, No.
But who has claimed that the technology should only be tested under the control of the claimant? Where did you hear this? How did your brain arrive at this conclusion? How did your brain determine that this technology won’t be properly vetted in due course? What makes you think investors in Defkalion aren’t doing their due diligence in investigating this new technology before investing?
What we might be seeing here is a company who is trying to protect their intellectual property and demonstrate its technology at the same time. That’s how things work in the business of new technology. Or we might be seeing a company that is perpetrating a scam. I’ve gone on record that I won’t buy Rossi’s E-cat until it’s been independently tested.
Also tell me how your brain determined that Defkalion is not going to be publishing test reports, tester identities, and test results? Why did you say that when it’s clear you’ve been following this story very closely and know that is not the case?
Also tell me how your brain determined that Rossi and Defkalion is absolutely a scam? How would you know such a thing?
And tell me how someone as successful as Dick Smith could so obviously fumble his apparent attempt to expose this as a fraud? Don’t you think it’s rude for you and Dick Smith to infer that nobody is using the “rational side of their brain?”
I don’t think the issue with you two here is intelligence. I think the issue here is something else–it sure looks like it to me.
Stephen
February 22, 2012 at 12:30 am
Why does everybody believe the real Dick Smith would waste his time, as we do, posting here?
dsm
February 22, 2012 at 12:35 am
Lu
Who is organizing the testing ?
who is selecting the testers ?
Who is managing the results ?
It sure aint us puppies
Doug M
(turn brain on please)
Lu
February 22, 2012 at 12:48 am
@DSM – Yeah right.
dsm
February 22, 2012 at 1:13 am
LU
Whose intellectual property are Defkalion trying to protect ?
Unless you believe in virgin births and resurrections. Then you can believe if the ‘miracle hyperion’ that simply fell on the floor of Defkalion’s factory in Aug last year.
So you might say, but they hired a team of brilliant LENR researchers who inside of 3 months invented a brand new powdered nickel + H LENR device – well that is truly miraculous isn’t it. Poor old Rossi says he began on his eCat 15 years ago.
So labs in Japan, USA, NASA, Israel, Russia & Europe have been working on achieving LENR some for 20+ years then Defkalion say “we did it in 3 months from scratch”.
And you wonder why I encourage people to think
Doug M
SH
February 22, 2012 at 12:21 am
About those double edged swords you are so fond of, Doug..
You are listing up alternative reasons for the ‘suspicious behaviour’ you and dickie are trying hard to preach to this blog.
SH
February 22, 2012 at 12:24 am
Damn this blockquote thingy. Im going back to good old fashion “s
Al Potenza
February 21, 2012 at 11:26 pm
“Defkalion has reportedly sold 18 factories/territories for around a billion dollars”
Hi Brad. Can you say where that information comes from? I’ve never seen it in print.
Stephen
February 22, 2012 at 12:09 am
Al, don’t tell Brad you work for the Greek Ministry of Revenues and taxation…
Veblin
February 22, 2012 at 2:57 am
See my post above where I debunk this distortion.
RyanWLocke
February 22, 2012 at 12:14 am
Hyperion NRG drink. Nuclear NRG in a can. Get some. I’d buy it!
Iggy Dalrymple
February 22, 2012 at 12:18 am
My only gripe with Defkalion’s test protocol is their refusal to use water for the coolant.
I like GoatGuy’s idea of using a large insulated tank of coolant water and then measure the rise in temperature for the entire tank.
I would have the supply come from the bottom of the tank and the return to the top of the tank. Stop the test when & if the tank reaches the boiling point.
CuriousChris
February 22, 2012 at 12:37 am
It’s called flow calorimetry. It is simple to do regardless of the claims by DGT. It should be done and DGT caim they already do it. normally its a small tank with fluid flowing through it. but the effect is nearly identical. testing is a little bit harder in a large tank because of the temperature gradient. but it would still suffice.
Also unlike Rossi you would not allow it to go through a phase change (to steam) this is what NASA proposed and Rossi backed out (speaking of patterns).
So why refuse for such an important test?
CuriousChris
February 22, 2012 at 12:44 am
damn! Paul please turn editing back on. I always spot my typo just as I press enter.
Peter Roe
February 22, 2012 at 8:31 am
“I like GoatGuy’s idea…”
Actually I thought it was mine, but either way it is not technically ‘flow calorimetry’ as flow rate and temperature differential measurement are not required.
A circulating pump would be just a means of transferring heat from the reactor to a fixed body of water, so in effect the arrangement I suggested is just a form of static calorimetry. If the reactor could be submerged in the thermal store tank then the principle would be exactly the same.
All you need in the way of instrumentation are the means to measure input electrical power, a simple thermometer and a timer. As I said earlier, this arrangement would be so simple and direct it would be almost impossible to question the results.
Mahron - A4 B2
February 22, 2012 at 12:25 am
Something is really bothering me here. The more I think of it the stranger it gets.
Let’s suppose you mortgaged your house to do research. If you don’t find money eventually you will be in a very bad position. Then you stumble upon something that will not only solve all of the worlds energy problems but probably also lead to discover something new in nuclear physics. What would you do ?
It’s always difficult to imagine oneself in a particular situation, but in this situation I am confident enough to say I would give it out. I would also think most people would do the same in such an extreme case. But maybe I am more of a hippy then I thought. I am not implying it is some kind of proof of fraud, but I find it morally very strange.
So, would you give it out or make money first ?
RyanWLocke
February 22, 2012 at 12:54 am
Oh Mahron…I would do both sir. . Have my cake and eat it too. Yes you can do both.
Mahron - A4 B2
February 22, 2012 at 1:36 am
There is no doing both. He either slows down the adoption of the device and research by more then a year and makes money. Or gives it out and in that case it is unlikely his device will be the best and first to come to market. When it comes there will be only one factory with a production capacity of 1M a year for an immediate demand of billions.
RyanWLocke
February 22, 2012 at 1:51 am
I’m not sure I’m following your logic Mahron. Adoption and research slowed down? Yes I believe that to be true. I also believe having a working product with licensing and a proven track record easier to swallow than simply putting it out there.
Either scenario you propose would have the same end result with the technology being released and benefitted by the masses.
I’m not certain merely “giving out” the technology would speed things up to make it more readily available.
Bob D
February 22, 2012 at 4:27 am
Ryan,
I cannot envision the technology evolving any faster than it already is. Every time I call Home Depot they hang up on me. Somebody tell me why?
Thermoskeptics Corporation
February 22, 2012 at 12:39 am
It does seem a bit self-aggrandizing.
If your buisness peers make decisions for investments off of an internet blog, they are lacking in prudence – and will likely fumble despite your best intentions. So Mr. Smith you need not champion their cause here. You seem to have won favor with Paul as honest – and you have declared from the beginning you believe it a scam similar to the magic pill scam – but I say, mostly rhetorically, if the NDA prevented a disclosure or trade secrets/IP, but still allowed for a determinative result, you should’ve been true to your intent. You should have continued to offer the 1 million and allowed the testing with qualified observers. This way you could’ve easily ascertained if the previous hypothesis of Bryce was infact true. Had you certainty of scam you owed it to your fellow buisness owners and investors to follow through and reach a negotiated testing protocol, or up the ante. If I cared about the veracity as much as you claim to or had the money to wager I would have been able to draw them into this by sweetening the incentive. For this reason I agree with the others posting here, that the post-offer grumbling shows a lack of tact, or worse egotism, which I mean as no affront. It simply beggars the question why tarry here and still respond to postings by delusive believers? It reminds me of the modus operandi of a certain friend of ours who once posted named George Yugo. The likelihood for a DGT/Leondardo fusion reactor seems low, but it has awakened many dreamers and researchers to the work of Arrata, Pianatelli, SPAWAR. NASA does not make patents on obscure processes like heavy electron production simply for their own amusement. This field is not the equivalent of a Firepower scam, and may one day collapse all assumptions about the ‘way we do buisness’ and I dare say should this day come within our lifetimes – nothing you do or say will protect your buisness friends from paradigm shift.
Paul Z
February 22, 2012 at 12:45 am
This has turned into a Circus with Dick Smith he knows he will loose the one million Rossi was right and Paul Story your giving Dick Smith way to much play on this, Rossi is building one million units and Defkaleon is moving forward with the Mig 22 guys in a few days .. enough of the Dick Smith Show.
CuriousChris
February 22, 2012 at 1:01 am
Can you provide a link about the mig 22 plan, as far as I knew it never got up. they haven’t announced it going ahead on 22passi.
Do you have inside knowledge?
RyanWLocke
February 22, 2012 at 1:22 am
Agreed with the DS show. Too many commercials and not enough substance to be worth watching again.
As far as DGT and AR ? I hope they deliver but if not I won’t let any of the aforementioned squash my hopes for LENR.
Dick Smith
February 22, 2012 at 1:15 am
Methusela. No not so much aggressively against , just can’t see how any reasonable person can not see that this is a very dishonest scam being perpetrated .
Every bit of evidence takes us down one track if we look at it objectively
Does anyone really believe that an invention that will change the world as we know it today could exist in the hands of two different organizations for over 6 months in proven working condition but not one mainstream world scientist tells the media and public about it?
And why would these scientists at NASA not be announcing that the holy Grail had been found and supporting Rossi for the Nobel prize?
I know. They are all jealous and scared that there funding may be stopped so they dishonestly keep the lid on the Rossi and Defkalion invention.
Believe that and you would believe anything.
Yes. I knew right from the start I would not have to pay out $1million- the evidence is overwhelming that this is a dishonest scam following a wee proven route.
CuriousChris
February 22, 2012 at 1:41 am
Some NASA researcher do support lenr. The big problem is rossi/dgt appear to be light years ahead as far as scale goes.
http://joe.zawodny.com/ <= Nasa Researcher who has posted a video in support of LENR
Because CF has such a bad name most mainstream scientists ignore it as they may be labelled as cranks.
Whether Defkalion or DGT are scammers is open to debate. but LENR is getting growing acceptance around the world there has been too many tests that show something is going on.
John Milstone
February 22, 2012 at 1:49 am
Note that Zawodny makes it clear that he doesn’t believe Rossi’s claims:
RyanWLocke
February 22, 2012 at 1:58 am
It is my belief that Rossi has something. Just not what he says he has.
DGT on the other hand seems to be willing to put their money where their mouth is. We will know soon. If there is stalling or even slightest hint of debauchery after these tests then I will write them off without reservation.
Then I am going to eat a case of ozemite and beg for DS’s forgiveness.
CuriousChris
February 22, 2012 at 2:10 am
Yes I know. I never said Zawodny supported Rossi.
He tries to distance himself from Rossi as far as he can. But he still supports LENR. NASA at least supports those who support it and has filed patent applications with respect to it.
Even if Rossi/Defkalion crash and burn LENR will be bruised but it will keep moving forward.
I only wanted to put forward to Dick that its not a forgone conclusion that the field of Cold Fusion is not bad science. it is just ignored science.
CuriousChris
February 22, 2012 at 2:13 am
oops..
I only wanted to put forward to Dick that its not a forgone conclusion that the field of Cold Fusion *is* bad science. it is just ignored science.
Ransompw
February 22, 2012 at 3:17 am
And that was very politically correct. Spoken like a true government employee. Want to know what he really thinks.
Bob D
February 22, 2012 at 4:32 am
Ah yes. Extraordinary claims do require evidence. Anybody have some that is not hearsay?
Ransompw
February 22, 2012 at 3:01 am
The answer to your post is Pons and Fleischmann.
But the reason you didn’t have to pay out your million is you never really offered it. That took your odds to 0%, very convenient.
Dick Smith
February 22, 2012 at 1:17 am
Well not wee!
RyanWLocke
February 22, 2012 at 1:26 am
Lol. I like wee better. Any chance of Ozemite hitting the shelves in the US? Sincerely I would pick up a jar to try it.
GreenWin
February 22, 2012 at 1:43 am
Well, it looks like bad guys = 1, believers = 100. G’night!
JNewman
February 22, 2012 at 2:06 am
That pretty much sums up the remarkable psycho-pathology discussed earlier. Apparently people posting here fall into two groups: bad guys and believers.
Nice.
Ransompw
February 22, 2012 at 3:13 am
So Newman, which are you. I voted the same as you earlier and I guarantee you I’m not a bad guy. And I will go on record as saying I am a believer in “Cold Fusion”. I use that moniker because I think Krivit is a (opps this is a family blog).
JNewman
February 22, 2012 at 3:40 am
If we voted the same, then we must both be good guys. That is a great relief.
RyanWLocke
February 22, 2012 at 2:06 am
Ehh no bad guys here.
dsm
February 22, 2012 at 2:51 am
A pair of one liners to consider
- Rossi may be on to something but it appears to not be stable nor scalable enough for commercialization
- Defkalion have a virgin birth & named it Hyperion (but no daddy around to give it legitimacy nor credibility). Baby’s 1st step rumored to only be days away.
Enjoy
Doug M
Quax
February 22, 2012 at 3:29 am
What Dick Smith doesn’t seem to realize is that LENR is such fringe research that it is uniquely poised to make such a strange scenario plausible.
Cold fusion research was poison for an academic career. I hold a M.Sc. in physics but was sidetracked into an IT career, nevertheless I think I have a pretty good sense about how the physics community ticks.
It is not the big conspiracy that some people on this blog believe in, but there is the all too human drive to conformity. Reinforced by a plethora of crackpots who try to sell you their phony ideas why Einstein was wrong or why their particular idea of a perpetuum mobile works.
Thus only a small group of serious researchers kept working on LENR after the mainstream gave up on it. They actually now amassed enough of a critical mass of evidence to make a convincing case that LENR is real. Because of the latter the claim of being able to commercialize the technology is not as far fetched as the average “free energy” nonsense.
Of course ecat and Defkalion could very well be scams and in that case they will again undermine the credibility of academic LENR.
This is why I was hoping that Dick Smith was to stick to his guns and force Defkalion to show their hand. Asking for a NDA is not enough of a “tell”. If we knew what was in the NDA that’ll give us some more datapoints to work with.
RyanWLocke
February 22, 2012 at 3:42 am
Good post. I don’t believe an NDA was ever given to DS. He shot down their offer without consideration. Total lack of accountability and follow through. Another missed opportunity and blemish on his rep and for LENR research.
Bravo
dsm
February 22, 2012 at 4:18 am
Defkalion wanted to talk by phone 1st (skype) but Dick said I want all comms out in the open so there can never ever be any misunderstanding by anyone as to what was ever said by who. Dick told us that here !.
Starting an exchange without openness is simply stupid because there is essentially no record of what got said to who.
Then on their website the NDAs appeared (how convenient). True believers will say very normal and that would be fair if we were dealing with a new secret flavor soft drink.
If anyone parts with 40 Mil Euros without full and open scientific acceptance and evaluation of the device it might be argued that they deserve what they get.
But where someone seeks funds from others to come up with that stake money we are into a different ball game.
Doug M
Ransompw
February 22, 2012 at 4:42 am
Doug:
You don’t think Defkalion has a right to protect its IP (intellectual Property) from being stolen by Dick Smith who has the resources to finance a competitor? I don’t even know what you are talking about.
dsm
February 22, 2012 at 5:06 am
I don’t believe the NDAs were restricted to just “thou shalt not steal our ip”
But if that clause is in there I know why it is so important to them
Cheers D
Veblin
February 22, 2012 at 5:01 am
Defkalion suggested that to make communication quicker and easier. Did Dick Smith request to record his Skype calls? Did Defkalion refuse to allows his Skype calls to be recorded?
All testers and observers were required to sign NDA’s. This was the case long before Dick Smith became involved.
I would agree. But see whats next.
Notice contracts are not activated until Hyperions are successfully tested. They may have to prove they have the money but I assume little or no money is exchanged until the contract is activated.
dsm
February 22, 2012 at 7:02 am
Veblin
Note this post down so you can come back & rub my nose in it if I prove wrong (long wait).
You are misled my friend. The virgin birth of the Hyperion never happened. No miracle occurred.
No angel appeared to Defkalion in mid 2011 and said “fear thee not for the horde is with thee, I bring thee glad tidings, a childe will be borne to you that will change the world – with this childe thou must go forth and multiply, I saith do this 60 times by 40 and great happiness will come unto thee”.
I am sorry to be so irreverent but your incredible religious belief in miracles (hyperion) entrances me.
Doug M
Veblin
February 22, 2012 at 8:09 am
Defkalion was formed to be sole manufacturer and distributer of Rossi’s E-cat. A marriage of a strange inventor and business. The marriage broke up with both parties thinking they still had the rights to the technology. Who is right? I don’t care. That’s what lawyers and courts are for.
With what they knew Defkalion claims to have made a new baby. Is this baby from virgin birth or is it a stolen baby. Who is right? I don’t care. That’s what lawyers and courts are for.
I do hope the baby is alive. Defkalion says it is and that the doctors will soon be there to report on the baby’s health.
I await those reports.
RyanWLocke
February 22, 2012 at 5:13 am
Agreed that having everything out in the open is a fair request for someone parting with that amount of money. I must have missed that post by DS. What was DFKs reasoning for not complying?
Methusela
February 22, 2012 at 7:20 am
What are the details of the NDA? You throw it around like a man waving a gun, but what if you’re firing blanks (via the gun, of course).
Please get Dick to post the details – you’re behaving like a scam artist here!
CuriousChris
February 22, 2012 at 4:17 am
You have my full support on this statement. I just wish Dick Smith had did what DGT asked and requested to be one of the testers. It would cost far less than 1 Mill and either prove that DGT has succeeded in the improbable Or given enough ammo to shoot them down.
Sadly I think Dick was too influenced by Ian Bryce. Ian appears to be quite dogmatic in his approach. He was also very insulted by the fact his “proof” was easily dispatched and became emotionally involved. The first line on his post on DGT’s forum proved that.
I do support Dick Smith so I am not changing my tune I just think he may have been influenced too heavily by the wrong people.
Timar
February 22, 2012 at 4:24 pm
Quax – you nailed it! Excellent post – it’s because of people like you that I still keep reading the comments here, enduring all the valueless talk. You are the polar opposite to poeple like Dick Smith – you assess things out of expertise, while they asses things out of ignorance.
TPBurnett
February 22, 2012 at 3:33 am
Just a thought but, Smith pulling out of the challenge could mean that he is no longer so sure it is a scam. Rossi’s offer to sell Smith machine with all the satisfaction guarantees would have been an much better deal for smith. He would have lost nothing or bought a good working machine for his million. It is strange he would rather risk a million dollar loss, or was it just as Rossi suggested – clownery.
dsm
February 22, 2012 at 3:48 am
I can tell you without any doubt that Dick is more convinced that I am that it is a scam.
I still hold to the view that Rossi had something going on in his eCats but I am not convinced he has any serious buyers for anything he currently has.
Doug M
Ivy Matt
February 22, 2012 at 6:45 pm
Wait, I thought he already made a post admitting that.