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Defkalion: Hyperion Reaction Occurs In Bursts

February 8, 2012

Defkalion gives us a number of tantalising clues about the mechanism behind their claims for Hyperion. Such detail should provide food for technical puzzle addicts.

A multi stage process appears to begin by generating atomic Hydrogen from H2. Once the switch is thrown on this stage, the reactor appears to be primed for action. A trigger (heat? EM?) causes a thermal burst and, if I am reading this correctly, the frequency of these bursts are controlled by software. In turn, the burst frequency determines COP and the whole system is kept in check between predefined temperature limits.

If atomic H is used in bursts, perhaps it is created in bursts, too. This would provide another level of control that was not obvious from previous clues.

My guess is just that. I look forward to seeing where people take Defkalion’s new teaser.

Wednesday 8 February 2011

Dave wrote:
I am interested in the trigger mechanism for the Hyperion reaction. My definition of trigger is a relatively low energy drive process that causes a large response. This is similar to the trigger for a rifle.

Defkalion GT
Correct, this is what triggering generaly means. But in Hyperion’s “triggering” is defined as a two phase process (please note Spec Sheet p.5) that is able to “ignite” the reactions and control them within pre-defined temperature ranges.

Dave wrote:1)
Does the heat generating Ni-H reaction only occur during the exact time period that the trigger is applied? Does it die down immediately (within seconds) once the trigger is removed?

Defkalion GT
Ni-H LENR reactions occure following atomic Hydrogen generation (page 5 in spec sheet) and after a specific period the triggering procedures are applied (we will not answer at this stage to your question how long is this period). Once the “trigger” activates the reaction, the “control” can stop it and “trigger” it again at will (in Hyperion products performed by software controled “will”, following specific aglorithms).

There is a predictable very limitted “heat after death” phenomenon following every long- period stop of a reactor/reaction. This is a well known and well documented phenomenon related with the H2-> H1-> H2 circle (chemical, non LENR energy), which is monitored by sensors and the Hyperion safety/control electronics/software. The contribution of such endothermic-exothermic circle to the COP of the total process is almost zero.

Dave wrote:2)
Somewhere I saw that the trigger was a 24 volt, 6 amp = 144 watt drive signal. Is this what you would refer to as the trigger?

Defkalion GT
Yes, this drive signal powers certain mechanisms of the Hyperion ignition system.

Dave wrote:3)
Does the magnetic field associated with the 6 amp current affect the generated heat output in a major way?

Defkalion GT
We will not answer to this questions at this stage.

Dave wrote:4)
Is the same 24 Volt, 6 Amp current used with the multi core product as well as in the single core design?

Defkalion GT
We will not answer to this questions at this stage.

Dave wrote:5)
It has been suggested that your output energy occurs in bursts that are controlled by the above trigger and is not a continuous function of the kernel temperatures. Is this a true statement? If not, explain the process if you would be so kind.

Defkalion GT
This is a true statement. LENR energy within Hyperion reactors is produced in “bursts” that are controlled by the above triggering procedures (and the safety electronics controling the triggering procedures/mechanisms, monitoring also the reactor’s inner conditions). The frequency of such “bursts” is also contollable (within certain limits), defining the actual COP of the Hyperion reactors and the Hyperion systems. Every such “burst” (or “spike” as it is also called) is the result of what we have called a “multistage set of reactions”. We will not explain at this stage the whole triggering process or the dynamic system of the multi-stage set of reactions triggered, as our patents are under preparation, a lot of people are trying unsafly to replicate LENR reactions based mostly on simple speculations or their understanding in forum posts (like the present) rather than following any safety policies or methodologies in scientific research and development, etc…

Dave wrote:6)
Finally, is your design subject to thermal run away if the kernel gets too hot?

Defkalion GT
Till now we have reached in lab conditions thermal run aways only when we deliberetly “killed” critical control mechanisms of Hyperion, having deactivated all of its backup safety mechanisms. The result of such “thermal run aways” was the melting of Ni within the reactor causing a reaction stop with no catastrophic effects to the environment (off course causing major malfunctions within the Hyperion kernel).

In real situations and before reaching any such “thermal run away” condition, signals/alarms of mallfunctioned critical control mechanisms of Hyperion systems “trigger” automaticaly a number of backup safety mechanisms. One is the venting the Hydrogen to the Argon atmoshere (please note our answer also related with safety of the Hydrogen Circuit in viewtopic.php?f=19&t=773
) causing a stop of the reactions. If Hyperion’s control/safety electronics and/or the backup safety mechanisms are also “killed”, then the self distructing mechanism of Hyperion automaticlly will destroy the inner of all reactors stoping any active reaction at once, with no catastrophic effects to the Hyperion’s environment. So, there is no practical way or expected in situ situation to reach such a “thermal run away” in a Hyperion system.

Thank you

The post is here

Posted by on February 8, 2012. Filed under Competitors,Defkalion,Hyperion. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

169 Responses to Defkalion: Hyperion Reaction Occurs In Bursts

  1. spacegoat

    February 8, 2012 at 11:58 am

    These appear to be the responses of someone genuinely developing a product, rather than the psychotic ramblings of a scammer. They are more forthcoming and genuine than anything AR has given out. Technically, it all makes sense to me.

    This elevates my confidence that Defkalion are the real deal. To what %? Well LANR is 100%. Have they managed to engineer commercial proportions of energy? From the convincing nature of the replies above … I am 75% confident.

    • Alain

      February 8, 2012 at 3:25 pm

      Me my feeling is 99.999% sure. but to be more rational,99.5% take into account black swan events.

      I have no possibility to believe in scam. this theory is not coherent with data. Occam razor is clear. anyway, black swan exists. maybe it is an alien conspiracy covered by CIA, jointly working with Mossad and KGB.

      • CuriousChris

        February 8, 2012 at 11:18 pm

        CIA hmmph now your sounding like a cospiratorialist! I have already stated it’s Martians travelling back in time to save the world from global warming, They better bloody hurry Europe is freezing.

        But I am still rather dubious, I mean the number of spelling mistakes. Surely serious researchers wouldn’t mistype like that.

        I am more worried about the white chicken events than black swan events. I have told the kids we have to get rid of our chooks in case they go thermo nuclear because we forgot to feed them.


        • Stephen T.

          February 9, 2012 at 1:35 am

          Cute, can you repeat that in Greek please?

    • Roger Bird

      February 8, 2012 at 4:49 pm

      Very well put, spacegoat. As is said so often in jest, ya’ just can’t make this stuff up. My confidence level for LANR is 100% rock solid. My confidence level for Defkalion is 87%. This was a very convincing presentation.

      • GreenWin

        February 9, 2012 at 1:55 am

        Yes. In fact another primary LANR developer, Blacklight Power, has addressed these very same trigger/spike/trigger reactions in their Rowan University tests. The H1 loading -> Ni lattice + “trigger” = T+. Cycle this process and we have a series of heat spikes flowing into a continuous reaction of 200-600C T.

        Interesting is it not, the two earliest western civilizations Greece and Rome, are the progenitors of new fire. History repeats itself.

        • Stephen T.

          February 9, 2012 at 2:42 am

          Truly amazing the way it ties back to early civilization and the modern economic tangle. So, what is the most efficient way to convert 200-600 Celsius T (thermal) to E (electric) and can it be made small enough to charge a hybrid vehicle? That answer can make a large economic and environmental impact for modern civilization.

          • GreenWin

            February 9, 2012 at 3:21 am

            Good question. At the moment present technology is limited to electromechanical conversion of steam thru turbine (or Stirling, free piston-type) mechanically spinning a generator.

            We should be able to do better with solid state conversion of thermal energy to electrical – that is, far better than thermocouples and waste heat convertors. Open for innovation.

          • Alain

            February 9, 2012 at 8:12 am

            this is the next chalenge.
            today classic Rankine Cycle turbine are the best solution for medium temperature (400C) like Hyperion’s. If temperature is too low, Organic Rankine could be useful, but 400C is OK. Nuke reactors work with that.

            for lower power, it is harder?
            Stirling engine have big problems and will not be the solution.
            some propose rankine Cycle but with pellet motor and not turbine .
            this one seems to have been tested on the road, with honest efficiency
            (one advantage is strong torke at start and no gearbox needed- like serial electric engine)…

            for fix installation there are many classic turbines, but you can consider organic rankine turbines like those one :

    • ian Bryce

      February 9, 2012 at 3:21 am

      There seem to be some problems with Defkalion’s explanation of their nuclear reaction occurring in bursts.

      1. Atomic hydrogen requires a powerful electric arc producing temperatures of 3000 C to make it in any quantity. Simple radio waves will not do it.

      2. If atomic hydrogen is really made, it will burn away and material it comes into contact with, thus destroying the device.

      3. Atomic hydrogen does nothing to overcpme the Coulomb Barrier, necessary for fusion with nickel.

      4. The new theoretical work on LENR, LANR etc, has done nothing to overcome these problems.

      4. Remember that all demonstrations of energy gain have now been shown possible by simple means (Australian Skeptics):
      Rossi 10 & 3 KW ECAT – earth wire carry in 3000W (If Rossi disagrees, just repeat the demo and I will measure all currents)
      Rossi 27 KW ECAT – thermocouple badly placed, amplifying output power reading
      Rossi Megawatt – big generator running, no one allowed to examine input wiring
      Defkalion’s Hyperion – no real test setup or independent measurements shown.

      So there is NO surviving evidence of energy gain.

      • GreenWin

        February 9, 2012 at 3:24 am

        Utter drivel. Troll alert.

      • B Fast

        February 9, 2012 at 4:23 am

        Ian Bryce, you’re the idiot that thinks that the only LENR researchers are Rossi and Defkalion even though you have been pointed to these guys:

        Dr. Brian Ahern, Ames National Laboratory
        Dr. Joseph Zawodny, NASA
        Quintin Bowles, University of Missouri–Kansas City.
        George Miley, University of Illinois
        Piantelli, University of Siena
        Mike McKubre, SRI
        Francesco Celani, National Institute of Nuclear Physics
        M. Swartz, MIT


        a half dozen times, right? To call yourself a skeptic is to disgrace the name. Real skeptics at least find out what the data is.

        • Roger Bird

          February 9, 2012 at 2:45 pm

          Thank you Bruce, you saved me the trouble of typing a big message.

      • Alain

        February 9, 2012 at 7:37 am

        you learned physics at Toy’rus ?
        1. hydrogen is atomic when getting inside metal to make hydride. it is atomic in electrolysis, yet recombination is fast is not yet absorbed by the electrode
        2. atomic hydrogen quickly recombine out of the metal, but not inside, since it cannot
        3. as explaine by measures cited in widom larsen theory, atomic hydrogen at the surface can for quantum coherent islands. the purpose of widom larsen theory is to explain how heavy coherent electrons could merge with coherent protons, to produce slow neutrons. those neutrons ignore coulomb barrier. the only barrier is the weak interaction barrier, and Widom-Larsen propose a credible mecanisme, using well known facts, measures independently.
        4. see 3. Widom-Larsen have a coherent and 100% compatible with todays quantum mechanic, tha explain all 3 miracle of cold fusion, and also some other strange effects ignored or not understoud since 19th century.
        5. the hypothesis of the earth wires ins not credible for many reasons, including the fact that all 3 wires were monitored. the hypercritics deliria was so strong with ecat that defkalion decided to make a much more rough and simple test. for thermocouple the behavior of the temperature is more coherence with a heat then burnout…. but I agree Rossi proposed bad testing protocol, beeing loose and paranoid…

        for defkalion, they are preparing the independent test, and cornering themselves in a way which is only coherent with certainty of success.
        they board of director is so fat that it is only coherent with normal business, not with scam.
        stop proposing 9/11 style conspiracy theory.

        there is a moment when we have to accept the converging evidence, even is not perfect.

        LENR is a proved fact, see SPAWAR researchs, published paper in peer review journal.
        Too many independent replication, different protocols, coherent results, to accept delusion.

        if heat is not the best proof, transmutation are even more convincing.

        knowing that it is scientific fact, industrial application of LENR is not needing unusual level of proof.

        anyway there is no limit in self-delusion for some :

        • spacegoat

          February 10, 2012 at 3:49 am

          Powerful rebuttals, Alain and B Fast

      • dsm

        February 9, 2012 at 9:43 am

        I love a good bet and I am sure you will be willing to back up your heartfelt scepticism.

        Am happy to have D Smith act as go-between – I am betting you $1000 (aud) that Rossi sells his 1st working home eCat before year end 2013.

        If oyu are willing to put $1K with D Smith, I am. too Then D can dish out the $s to the winner. I trust him & I know you do too.

        He has my email addr.


        Doug M

      • B Fast

        February 9, 2012 at 4:14 pm

        Oh, and there is a comment here: that asks for your response. You’ve engaged this conversation as an “expert”. Please provide a response to your critics — or do you believe that your bachelor’s degree qualifies you to not have any.

    • StevenB

      February 9, 2012 at 7:24 am

      Agree 100%. All AR usually give us is: “we will have 1 million ecats ready by December”, or: “our factory is being build,…” or, “yesterday I met with a partner who will boost efficiency of ecats tremendously,…so just fog, fog, fog,…
      however i do not share your optimism,…i’m about 25% certain that all this is true…

    • Jerry C

      February 9, 2012 at 10:51 pm

      Space Goat – considering 75% of what was posted by Defkalian is considered stolen from its rightful owner, I’m surprised that someone as critical as you would approve – this leads one to believe maybe you have some special interest?

      • spacegoat

        February 10, 2012 at 4:01 am

        Not sure I catch your drift Jerry C.
        Obviously any progress on commercial LANR is a fantastically positive thing.
        I am critical of their “maximizing” profits approach (which may turn out to be wrong) in the face of a world screaming out for this solution. NOW.
        There is a history of benevolent experimental discoverers who have donated major discoveries to the world. Of course, given their backgrounds, I do not expect Rossi or Defkalion to do this. But there are other methods, licensing for example. They could also demonstrate properly, with some minor risk that an observer might see something regarding the inner workings, but AR/Defkalion have great head starts. This minor risk is balanced by their own risk of incineration. Greece is not far from the Middle East. Revealing a new energy source such as what they proclaim would mean Iran would have zero interest/excuse in pushing for uranium fission.

  2. Tomas Douting

    February 8, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    I foresee there will be some new attacks on the safety of the system based on these new descriptions released. That seems to be one of the favored approaches of a few of those who have some apparent interest in negative comment.

    As to the new hints that they have released there are jewels both in what they do say and in what they will not (yet?) say. I wonder what their decision making process is about what they can release and what they cannot.

    Curiouser and curiouser but definitely a positive sort of move on DGT’s part from my point of view.

    • Brad Arnold

      February 9, 2012 at 6:35 am

      Five Stages of Idea Accpetance
      1. It is irrelevant to this situation.
      2. It’s relevant, but it’s unproven.
      3. It’s proven, but it’s dangerous.
      4. It’s safe, but it’s not saleable.
      5. It’ll sell, what a great idea!

      I’d say we are between stages two and three.

  3. Dale G. Basgall

    February 8, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    Well, the article sais nothing in fact as usual, only claims of something working that has yet to emerge in physical form.

    I guess all of us will have to just watch and see, and when Defkalion sais we have a reactor for sale and it’s 5,000 bucks for 5kw and we can deliver it in three weeks, then I will again be hopeful of some reality in the statements to the general public from them.

    In simple it appears a sript has been carefully generated plakating readers on the Defkalion forum.

    Statements like , “we have finalized stabalization”, “look at our new product”, “just released new LENR for sale.

    People that claim all this stuff fail to answer one basic question we should all ask, “when”, and what “date” will the product be available. Not to just look at and be told how good it will work but actually “when will a product emerge”?

    Seems like that is one simple question anyone could answer that works at Defkalion, or do you think that’s just to difficult to figure out.

    Who makes that statement anyway, the CEO, production manager, people making the product? Is this just all to top secret for anyone of us out here in puter land to accept?

    They must be simply generated stories to keep the gumballs from flying towards them. What should we believe after all, this information that changes on a regular basis, heads or tails?

    • Alain

      February 8, 2012 at 10:11 pm

      in fact they have given a delay of 2 month (when they call for independent test applicant).
      recently they say that 7 applicant were to be planned, but it was slow to manage their paper process.

  4. Mahron - A4 B3

    February 8, 2012 at 1:00 pm

    It fucking better be real … or else … 🙂

    • Peter Roe

      February 8, 2012 at 2:21 pm

      I’m sure DGT are quaking in their boots! That’s probably the last we hear from them as they are forced to retire to their bunker in the face of such a threat. 🙂

      • Alain

        February 8, 2012 at 10:15 pm

        hard for them to escape,we have their names.
        not lonely as a scammer, and much to lose.


        George Sortikos, born 1942 – Chairman
        Engineer. Ex banker and industrialist (high tech ceramics). Ex president of the state owned Greek Industrial Investment Bank (ETBA) in 80-90s and founder of Omega Bank.(90s)

        George Xanthoulis, born in 1987 – Deputy Chairman,

        Aurel David, born in 1969 – CEO
        Swiss, Banker with vast experience in project finance and logistics. Ex president of a Montenegro Bank.

        Alexandros Xanthoulis, born 1954 – Board member, representative of Praxen
        Macro-Economics, Greek-Canadian. Former EU officer, Head for Energy and Financial Reconstruction EU delegation in Central Asia (90s).

        Christos Stremmenos, born 1932 – Board Member
        Chemical Engineer. Professor (retired) in the University of Bologna, ex Ambassador of Greece in Italy

        Ioannis Chatzichristos, born 1958 – Board Member
        Mathematics/Systems theory, vast experience in software development, management and IT project management.

        Andreas Meidanis, born 1953 – Board Member

        Mouafak Saouachni, born 1961 – Board Member
        Medical doctor, Greek-Israeli, responsible in labour health and environmental safety

        Andreas Drougas, born 1945 – Board Member
        Mathematics/IT, ex-executive consultant in LARCO (Greek Nickel mining co, now state owned), vast experience in management consulting and IT

        All these info is public in Greece (Government Gazette for private companies)

        • Peter Roe

          February 8, 2012 at 10:26 pm

          Pretty heavyweight credentials for a bunch of fly-by-night ‘scammers’! It seems a bit odd that Prof. Stremmenos is still on DGT’s board of directors AND on the JONP advisory board.

          • Alain

            February 8, 2012 at 11:04 pm


            Since then, there where two changes in our BOD positions, that will be announced officially through Government Gazette/Company Registrations. But basically, this is the BOD of Defkalion Green Technologies SA.

          • CuriousChris

            February 8, 2012 at 11:45 pm

            Finding information out about those people outside of defkalion is pretty difficult. they may just sound heavyweight. there is also Praxen DGT and DGT which are two different companies with different board of directors. I assume information about these individuals is hard to find due to language difficulties.

            Although I hate to refer to PESN this article is interesting re Stremmenos.

          • Peter Roe

            February 9, 2012 at 11:54 am

            Yes, it’s Stremmenos’ outburst I had in mind. It does seem quite likely that he just might be one of the “changes in our BOD positions”!

  5. Peter Roe

    February 8, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    Tantalising stuff! This “24 volt, 6 amp = 144 watt drive signal” used to repeatedly kick start the thermal reaction is particularly intriguing. I can only see a couple of possibilities; either 1) the power is used to generate a (static?) magnetic field in the reactor or 2) the current flows directly through the ‘fuel’. Other configurations such as a carbon arc to ionise hydrogen seem unlikely, but might be possibilities. Direct resistance heating seems unlikely as mains ac would be fine for this purpose without conversion to low voltage dc. Presumably the control electronics use 6-9V dc.

    It seems that DGT are still using a hydrogen bottle, so certification might be more problematic that Rossi’s supposedly gas-free system.

    I’m not sure I like the sound of the self-destruct system activating when control systems are lost – power cuts are pretty common where I live.

    • Dr. No

      February 8, 2012 at 2:42 pm

      Such drive signal can generate anything when appropriate circuitry is used. E.g. microwave pulse.

      Control electronics uses now typically 3.3 V.

      Power cut problems can be easily avoided by using a small battery backup system.

    • dsm

      February 8, 2012 at 9:43 pm

      I think that several researchers have mentioned frequency bursts used to activate / control the fusion process. Would have to go looking to find these comments but it may have been in one of the NASA 22 Sept 2011 slide presentations.

      Doug M

      • Peter Roe

        February 8, 2012 at 10:06 pm

        Likewise, I seem to remember some CF system that involves dc current flow though ‘something’ but it is getting increasingly difficult to remember where these bits and pieces come from. It may have been in connection with a co-deposition method.

    • Alain

      February 8, 2012 at 10:22 pm

      if you know widom-larsen theory it looks more logic.

      once the reactor is hot enough you can trigger the generation of slow neutrons. there are neutron absorptions until the nucleus are full. neutron generation is endothermic, but neutron absorption is exothermic, so it will heat a little.
      then you can stop, because the unstable nucleus will vomit an electron (beta disintegration), or dump an He4 (beta delayed alpha) if beta not possible (electron pauli crowded)…
      this will heat the reactor…

      then you can trigger the neutron generation again, … and so on…

      a good engineer ca modelize that multi-stage reaction as command and control model, so you can control the reaction with a good algorithm…

      • dsm

        February 9, 2012 at 11:31 pm


        I appreciate your comments re this process even if a little difficult to follow exactly.

        Doug M

  6. Ivy Matt

    February 8, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    So, it’s a pulsed device rather than steady-state? Interesting. If true, that makes controllability more plausible. The big question remaining being if DGT can demonstrate the 20+ COP they’ve been claiming. I’m not convinced, but I’m looking forward to seeing results from the tests. And I’ll be watching closely for signs of DGT trying to back out.

    • B Fast

      February 9, 2012 at 4:26 am

      The sense of controllability is really nice, isn’t it.

    • Roger Bird

      February 9, 2012 at 3:03 pm

      I can just see one engineer saying, “Jeez, we can’t control this sob.” And a second engineer saying, “Wait. If we pulse the sucker, that would work!”

  7. Peter Roe

    February 8, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    One thing that is pretty clear is that ‘Hyperion’ units are far more complex than the ‘domestic ecat’ 🙂 and could never compete head on with Rossi’s stated price point. They also seem to designed to require sophisticated maintenance and support (probably through expensive maintence contracts) while Rossi is supposedly aiming for simplicity and DIY core replacement etc.

    I get the impression of a technology equivalent to a very highly developed steam engine, while Rossi has discovered internal combustion! But the main thing is confirmation of the COP – we can then await AR/NI’s cheapo version with a lot more confidence.

    • Dr. No

      February 8, 2012 at 2:47 pm

      If this all is true (and I am still very very skeptical), there is no problem if the electronics will be relatively complex. Perhaps you do not know how highly sophisticated and complex equipment is even a simple mobile phone… Perhaps Rossi asks NI to solve this because is unable to make it himself. If Defkalion employs standard good electronic engineers, they can do this without any outside help.

  8. arian

    February 8, 2012 at 3:06 pm

    Phillips announces world’s best catalyst for producing hydrogen fuel from water

    • spacegoat

      February 8, 2012 at 3:40 pm

      The announcement by Phillips is stunning! As an energy source it is more accessible than Defkalions over engineered boxes. Amazing.

      It seems the world has a range of really fantastic clean, inexhaustible energy options: LANR, CC-HOD (the Phillips process), thorium fission (being developed by the Chinese). The ITER project in France should probably be scrapped forthwith.

      The only black cloud on the near horizon is war, probably global war, over energy rich Iran’s “right” to muck about with dangerous and outdated energy production through uranium fission.

      • Alain

        February 8, 2012 at 10:24 pm

        it is not an energy source, since you have to provide aluminium.
        some one make a computation (on vortex-l) and it cost 6 times more than usual electrolysis…

        anyway it is a way to store hydrogen as a solid and liquid, ie aluminum and water.

      • GreenWin

        February 9, 2012 at 3:39 am

        goat: the Iran “threat” seems a bit convenient for too many invested parties. We went through this with Iraq only to learn there were no “weapons of mass destruction.”

        Frankly, with all our surveillance technology, I am not worried about Iran having fissionable material. If they try to build a weapons plant, delivery system – that’s what our BILLIONS of intelligence dollars should ferret out.

        THEN, and only then do we need to take preventative action. And introduction of LANR means no nation needs fission for energy.

        • Brad Arnold

          February 9, 2012 at 6:43 am

          Iran is a sideshow. The technology (both black and white) is mindboggling that the US has in it’s corner. Hopefully higher oil prices is a tail-wind to LENR integration. Still, Iran does have an advanced biological weapons program – though no country has used strategic biological weapons yet, as they are a two-edged sword. More reason to push the gas pedal on the LENR rollout.

          • Peter Roe

            February 9, 2012 at 12:06 pm

            The intended war against Iran would presumably (if the US and Israeli lunatics get their way) be conducted remotely using drones, cruise missiles etc., rather than any attempt to put boots on the ground. Given the one-sidedness of such a conflict, the Iranians would probably use any bio-weapon capability they possess, as they might conclude that they have little to lose by doing so. It could get very messy.

            Let us hope it is just sabre-rattling on the part of the world’s favourite bully.

          • Peter Roe

            February 9, 2012 at 12:13 pm

            Hey Paul – there is definitely something awry with the edit function. It is now not allowing any changes even when there is over 1 min 40 seconds left on the timer when re-posting.

          • spacegoat

            February 9, 2012 at 12:46 pm

            Iran is not a sideshow. The US may have hardware weapons, but Rusia has biological weapons and probably China too. Both these countries may defend Iran. Rusia and Pakistan have both declared as much.

            We have military muscle crowding into the Gulf currently and heavy sanctions on Iran. This tension, an Israeli attack, or another false flag incident like 911 (Building 3=controlled demolition => building 1 and 2 also), may spark off hostilities. The 40-50000 missiles in hostile areas bordering Israel will render that place a hell. The US has tactical nukes and changed the law to be able to use them preemptively. Once they are used, it would escalate into regional or global nuclear war.

            But as we all point out, for what purpose? Iran is energy rich and there are great energy alternatives to uranium, such as their allies the Chinese are developing with thorium. And most of us on this forum believe there is now LANR.

            The whole media coverage on this is a charade.

          • Peter Roe

            February 9, 2012 at 1:41 pm

            Just because a course of action is literally insane I have no faith that it won’t happen. Our puppy dog (UK) government is already dropping absurd claims about Iran’s intentions into the news media as if they were fact (just as happened before Iraq). Cameron is just the new Blair.

            Re. the destruction of the WTC, building WTC7 was possibly the strangest: it wasn’t touched during the initial destruction, yet was filmed collapsing vertically for no apparent reason a short while later.

          • AB

            February 9, 2012 at 4:57 pm

            Iran isn’t about nuclear weapons, it is about oil.

            Oil is mostly traded in US dollars as per OPEC, with great financial advantages to the US. Iran is one of the few countries that decided to trade oil in other currencies as well. The other countries that have done this or planned to do this are Iraq, Libya, Venezuela. The US was involved in bringing down the rulers of two of these countries and has already threatened the other, though a good excuse for a war with Venezuela has not presented itself yet.

            In order for the public to accept yet another war, it must believe that it is being threatened. However, a nuclear weapon equipped Iran is not a danger to the US. First of all, if Iran initiated a nuclear attack on a NATO member, it would be literally suicide without any possible good outcomes. Second, the US has defense systems that can intercept ballistic missiles. Third, history has shown the nuclear weapons prevents wars.

            Since the above is a reasoning that any reasonably informed and logically thinking person can follow, Iran is painted as crazy (and thus dangerous) and “subhuman”.

    • Mahron - A4 B3

      February 8, 2012 at 3:52 pm

      Combine it with a bloom box, et voilà ! But lenr still has higher energy density, better for space stuff. And anything that is moving really.

    • JNewman

      February 8, 2012 at 4:03 pm

      It should be noted that the Phillips that announced this development is a small, not-for-profit pharmaceutical company based in Oklahoma, NOT Koninklijke Philips Electronics N.V., one of the largest technology companies in the world. So don’t base any analysis of this news on Philips’ (with one ‘L”) rather than Phillips’ (with 2 “L”s) reputation.

    • Peter Roe

      February 8, 2012 at 4:38 pm

      The downside of the process is that it consumes aluminium in the process of catalytic hydrogen production (1g of aluminium for each 3g of water decomposed). I’m not sure how much energy is consumed to make a gram of aluminium but the energy balance doesn’t look brilliant on first sight. This should possibly be viewed as a potential indirect energy storage system rather than as an energy source.

      Presumably the waste product will be aluminium hydroxide, that would need to be recycled.

      • JNewman

        February 8, 2012 at 4:53 pm

        The ultimate issue for any hydrogen production process is the cost. There is no shortage of hydrogen in the world; the question is what does it cost to extract it. if this process eats a gram of aluminum for every gram of hydrogen it produces, it will not be cost-effective.

        • JNewman

          February 8, 2012 at 5:00 pm

          Actually, the above is not correct. The ratios involved are moles, not grams. So the amount of aluminum consumed is far greater. Sorry for the incorrect statement.

        • Peter Roe

          February 8, 2012 at 5:05 pm

          I just going by what is said in the press release: “The process uses about 3 times more water than aluminum”.

          If that is accurate, then aluminium is in effect the ‘fuel’ and the hydrogen is just an intermediary. I’m pretty sure that the energy needed to refine and transport a gram of aluminium from bauxite will be far more than the energy that can be derived by burning 3g of hydrogen.

          Collecting, storing and returning large amounts of aluminium hydroxide gel would also cost energy. I’m not sure what the most efficient route back to aluminium metal would be, but it is probably comparable in energy terms with the initial ore extraction process.

          • Peter Roe

            February 8, 2012 at 5:16 pm

            JNewman – Yes, I see from Arian’s second link that you are right – ‘three times’ does refer to moles rather than weight in grams. The energy balance looks entirely non-viable except for specialist purposes.

          • JNewman

            February 8, 2012 at 5:19 pm

            The Phillips’ website has a much more detailed discussion of the process. They provide the reaction:

            2[Al] + 3[H2O] + CC => CC + Al2O3 + 3H2

            So it is moles, not grams.

            And I think you are absolutely correct: this is an aluminum-fueled reactor with hydrogen exhaust.

    • Roger Bird

      February 8, 2012 at 5:11 pm

      I don’t get the part about not needing input power after the process is started. That sounds like a perpetual motion machine to me.

      • Peter Roe

        February 8, 2012 at 5:23 pm

        Aluminium will react slowly with water anyway, especially at low pH values. A catalyst just speeds things up. There is no energy gain overall.

        • Peter Roe

          February 8, 2012 at 5:42 pm

          Correction – *high* pH values (alkaline).

      • Roger Bird

        February 8, 2012 at 8:35 pm

        I am referring to the Phillips hydrogen carbon catalyst.

        I now understand that the energy “gained” is “lost” to aluminum oxide. Aluminum oxide (sapphires and rubies) will be a much more difficult marriage to break up than water.

    • Thicket

      February 8, 2012 at 5:23 pm

      A small, not-for-profit pharmaceutical company develops a hydrogen generation process that significantly improves motor vehicle mileage. Uhuh. Words are easy. Show me.

      Unless this is a perpetual motion, free-energy claim, it takes more energy to produce hydrogen from water than to combust hydrogen in a motor vehicle to produce water.

      Colour me skeptical.

      • Peter Roe

        February 8, 2012 at 5:28 pm

        You are getting confused with vehicle hydrogen electrolysis systems. This is a method of decomposing water using aluminium and a catalyst. No perpetual motion or free energy is involved.

        Please actually appraise yourself of the facts before issuing the usual uninformed knee-jerk negative comments about anything you instantly decide must be ‘woo woo’.

        • arian

          February 8, 2012 at 5:45 pm

          Aluminium hydroxide is a by product not a waste .

          “Hydrated alumina, also known as alumina trihydrate (ATH), or simply hydrate, is more accurately chemically designated as aluminum trihydroxide, Al(OH)3. It is a non-abrasive powder with a Mohs’ hardness index of 2.5 – 3.5 and a specific gravity of 2.42. Alumina trihydrate is the largest volume flame retardant used in the world. On heating to 200°C, hydrated alumina decomposes into 66% alumina and 34% water. This irreversible process is, in part, what makes ATH an effective flame retardant. Aluminium hydroxide is also used as an adsorbent, emulsifier, ion exchanger, mordant, antacid, and filtering medium. It is also used in the manufacture of paper, ceramics, printing inks, detergents, for waterproofing fabrics and in dentrifrices and antiperspirants ”

          • Peter Roe

            February 8, 2012 at 5:51 pm

            True. There may not be much call for it though, on the island where hydrogen power generation is envisioned! And what do they do when they run out of pepsi cans? 🙂

        • Thicket

          February 8, 2012 at 7:06 pm


          I’ll make it really, really simple for you.

          They’re turning water into hydrogen and oxygen and then back to water.

          They can use aluminum, strontium-90, pixie dust or whatever else they want, it’s water going to water. Even someone as uninformed as you should know that this cannot save energy in a motor vehicle.

          Please use even the most basic of common sense before making rash and foolish, uninformed, knee-jerk statements.

          • JNewman

            February 8, 2012 at 7:16 pm

            Thicket, what are you on about? Peter hasn’t said a word about motor vehicles. His comments are that this is a very energy-intensive way to produce hydrogen. That is surely correct. This Phillips claim may be completely legitimate. Its only problem is that it also appears to be utterly pointless unless you have a great need to consume aluminum.

          • Peter Roe

            February 8, 2012 at 8:17 pm

            … or have a great need for antiperspirant, and only scrap aluminium to make it from!

          • Thicket

            February 8, 2012 at 9:07 pm


            Phillips claims a 32% mileage efficiency improvement using hydrogen. Their study is on their website. Anyone who thinks that using the Phillips process to save energy/fuel in motor vehicles is dreaming in Technicolor.

            You’re right. Peter didn’t say this. He didn’t say much of anything except to take another one his personal jabs. Peter can’t say much, because of his lack of knowledge. All he can do is parrot stuff and throw insults at skeptics.

            Phillips also makes the misleading statement that their process requires no energy (once it’s heated up).

          • JNewman

            February 8, 2012 at 9:18 pm

            Thicket, ok I see how this little dance developed here. I will stay out of it, if you don’t mind.

            However, I think it is accurate to say that you, Peter and I can all agree that the Phillips “breakthrough” is… um… less than monumental.

          • Peter Roe

            February 8, 2012 at 9:51 pm

            Sadly I can’t say any more because of my lack of knowledge and an unfortunate tendency to parrot stuff and throw insults at pseudo-skeptics.

      • Roger Bird

        February 9, 2012 at 12:40 am

        Thicket, I understand you. However, consider that water is a higher energy state than is aluminum oxide. That is where the gain in energy would be.

        Or, since I am not a chemist or even a physical scientist, I got those two reversed. In any case, getting the aluminum oxide separated is a bitch. I see it as water being higher up the hill of potential energy than is aluminum oxide.

        Otherwise, this does not make any sense.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      February 8, 2012 at 5:47 pm

      This Phillips hydrogen generator might be a good hydrogen source for E-cat type reactors. Who knows, perhaps Rossi even uses it in his forthcoming bottle-free model.

      • Peter Roe

        February 8, 2012 at 6:11 pm

        Perhaps there will be a hopper on top for shredded beer and coke cans, used cooking foil and leftover French coins!

    • atanguy

      February 8, 2012 at 7:42 pm

      After visiting the web site: Sound very fishy to me…

      • JNewman

        February 8, 2012 at 7:56 pm

        Not sure if this is a scam. It is, however, abysmal. A new way to make hydrogen that costs five to ten times more than conventional methods is unlikely to attract too much in the way of financial support.

        • Tomas Douting

          February 8, 2012 at 9:42 pm

          Its not a scam, but it the description does gloss over the energy and cost required to produce the aluminum that is consumed.
          I’m reminded of that excellent way to get a million dollars that starts out with “First, get a million dollars”. 😉

      • Pachu

        February 8, 2012 at 9:00 pm

        +1 , i dont trust this thing…

        • arian

          February 8, 2012 at 10:39 pm

          quote from phillips company:

          “The by-products from our hydrogen-production method are desirable because they are pure, and contain no contaminants including bauxite, gibbsite, boehmite, goethite,hematite, kaolinite, and TiO2. We reason that the large volume of by-products of our invention, pure Al(OH)3 and pure Al2O3, will be 100% recycled to produce more aluminum metal. Recycling of aluminum hydroxide and aluminum oxide makes the present invention economically viable for large-volume hydrogen generation. An excellent discussion of the process for primary aluminum production, as well as world-wide values for the energy requirements for aluminum smelting, can be found on a website produced by the International Aluminium Institute (”

          more info:

          you can order catalyst by this email:

          How to do your first test using carbon catalytic:

          • arian

            February 8, 2012 at 10:53 pm

            They claim achieved 32% efficiency using H2 instead of HHO.this is quite believable, 33% HHO is oxygen.

          • atanguy

            February 8, 2012 at 11:15 pm

            Hey Arian, you get a piece of the cake?

          • arian

            February 8, 2012 at 11:39 pm


            No, i didn’t order yet.

          • Thicket

            February 9, 2012 at 10:08 am


            HHO, often called Brown’s Gas, is a myth. It doesn’t exist. It’s in the same category as phlogiston, N-rays, polywater and hydrinos.

            So yes, they used hydrogen and not HHO. No, that doesn’t make their claims believable.

    • CuriousChris

      February 8, 2012 at 11:53 pm

      Haha see how easy it is to fool people. The name philips is highly respected. This breakthru comes from “phillipscompany” which I hope philips sues the ass off. notice the extra L?

      Here is the article from the FAKE PHILIPS

      also notice the the real dutch philips has their own website of course.


      • arian

        February 9, 2012 at 12:07 am

        No one is fooled here.all of us know this
        company is a drug company not giant philips Electronics company.

    • ilurkilearn

      February 9, 2012 at 6:10 am

      a search of the email address listed here:

      where this special carbon stuff can be ordered, brings:

      where some stuff with Zinc acetate as the active ingredient is supposed to grow hair …. on dogs, cats and horses for sure.

      So …

    • sdritsas

      February 10, 2012 at 3:07 am

      Please don’t post comments like that.

      You make it sound like it is Philips & Co, the well know company, that you are referring at, making you and some other people look really stupid.

  9. spacegoat

    February 8, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    The safety language is inconsistent:
    1.”…a lot of people are trying unsafly to replicate LENR reactions”
    2.”The result of such “thermal run aways” was the melting of Ni within the reactor causing a reaction stop with ** no ** catastrophic effects to the environment (off course causing major malfunctions within the Hyperion kernel).”

    So a run-away destroys the box, safely and naturally.

    3.”If Hyperion’s control/safety electronics and/or the backup safety mechanisms are also “killed”, then the self distructing mechanism of Hyperion automaticlly will destroy the inner of all reactors ”

    They omit to say that the only point of 3. is to try and keep private the workings of the box. As I’ve said before, this secrecy is pathetic. They want to privatize New fire, that will be as ubiquitous as old fire?? An inheritance of all humanity?
    Just how wealthy do these people want to become? I find it ironic that there is an emergent revolution in society through LANR, that may devalue somewhat our materialistic urges (because everything will become abundant), and these lucky hackers who stood on the shoulders of the researchers who delivered this into their laps, want want to privatize New Fire in order to become unimaginably rich.

    They have a head start, they will all become wealthy. The auto-destruction mechanism is over the top.

    It is also inconsistent with the ecat – “safe for the home, no auto-destruction, DIY changing of fuel”. What will the media make of these inconsistencies?

    • GreenWin

      February 9, 2012 at 3:56 am

      goat: That’s a bit extreme. Anyone can develop their own formula to get a desired reaction. No one is going to monopolize this technology – it’s too simple. What multiple developers WILL do is effectively dismantle the energy monopoly held by old school oil and gas companies. This includes their biggest customers, the electric utilities.

      I am quite pleased to see Defkalion’s open discussion of their system. Fine to keep some of the key technology proprietary. Someone once had a patent on the internal combustion engine. Did that prevent hundreds of innovators from building their own versions?

      The key to remember is – there’s plenty for everyone. Far as I know no one has put bounds on the size of our universe. That suggests there’s an infinite abundance for all.

      • spacegoat

        February 9, 2012 at 1:04 pm

        I understand your point Greenwin, but I am very concerned about the conflict in the Middle East, that is predicated on Iran developing civil uranium based energy.

        If the discovery of LANR and commercial LANR was anything other than the greatest discovery in the history of mankind, then I could comfortably go along with your reasoning. But, because:

        1. It is so momentous,
        2.The LENR hackers (AR/Defkalion) have merely perfected an existing technique by trial and error.
        3. The hackers, having a head start, would comfortably make their money no matter what.
        4. Public knowledge of the technique would deflate the situation in the Middle East

        then I think they should help out mankind by allowing others to replicate and break the story on the world stage.

        These hackers may well get fried along with the rest of us because of their greed. Do not think for one moment the situation in the Middle East is under control. When threatened, men act without thought. What the hackers have in their hands is almost certainly a war prevention device, both for now and into the future.

        • Roger Bird

          February 9, 2012 at 3:25 pm

          The only war prevention device is the one in the human heart, which, when activated, will prevent war.

          • Peter Roe

            February 9, 2012 at 3:48 pm

            Politicians and bankers don’t come with one of those unfortunately.

        • Timar

          February 10, 2012 at 10:06 am

          I think it’s utterly naive to assume LENR would change anything in regard to to the conflict with Iran.

          Many nations offered Iran help with setting up a civil nuclear programme under the supervision of the IAEA.

          If they accepted, they could have had nuclear energy much cheaper. The didn’t accept. They don’t want nuclear power plants – that’s only a by-product (they have cheap oil in abundance after all). They want nukes. They want to become a nuclear power.

          LENR won’t change that at all.

          • spacegoat

            February 10, 2012 at 12:24 pm

            Obviously they want nukes. The quest for energy is an excuse. Commercial LANR shatters the pretense. If Iran goes ahead developing nukes after the pretense is shattered there will be hardly any support. Russia and China will drop their support. A regional or global nuclear holocaust will be avoided. That is what counts. If these crazies want a local religious war then let them.

          • spacegoat

            February 10, 2012 at 12:42 pm

            Maybe something to jolt your complacency is this … Israel have made it clear that if they go down, they’ll take the “unsupporting” West down with them. They have over 200 nukes, enough to destroy the Middle East and the West. I’m not sure where you are living, but hopefully you are out of range.
            That they will go down is likely. 40 000 modern missiles are trained on that very small country. A preemptive strike may destroy their air force. But worse, just a few direct hits on their own nuclear installation at Dimona may make the country uninhabitable. Nuclear bombs are not as destructive as fallout from crippled reactors.

            So… are you still adamant the knock out of the Iranian pretense through the advent of commercial LANR and the subsequent withdrawal of Russian/Chinese support will do nothing to prevent a regional/global war?

          • Alain

            February 10, 2012 at 3:23 pm

            the goal of iran, is to get the bomb, but it is rational, and event should be good for the region.
            Iran and the zone, since irak attack and Lebanon bombing, is under the strong menace of irrational forces that can destabilize the zone.
            US or Israel menance is too much unpredictable, and it is geostrategically needed to sanctuarize their homeland. atomic bomb is not an aggressive weapon, but a defensive last resort weapon.

            moreover Saudi are the real enemy (they have opposite vision of religion… hard to understand for US, but my dear helped me to understand the geopolitic of Islam. note that Taliban , financed by US for a pipeline, slaughtered Iran embassy members in kaboul, despite desperate call for help to the world)

            if US and Israel want to bloc Nuke in Iran it is only to be allowed to bemb them when they want.

            As a country that own a bomb, not to depend on US predictable rational decision not to help europe in case of big war, I can understand that they want they homeland sanctuarized.

            moreover Achmadinejad have bad press, it is a nationalist clown. nationalism, and the bom, is a chance for that country to escape from the “Experts comitee” of Mullah that keep all the power, despite the freedom of vote and strong education of men an women…

            this country is waiting to send out their “Experts committee” to have a classic nationalist, homeland centered , escaping from religion…

            US with their republican and religious groups, should not give lessons to Iran.
            I’m afraid Iran freedom should be bloody, but atomic bomb will help that country to be more rational, and more respected…

            I’m really afraid on Israel , because internally (I have friend there) it is becoming like early Iran republic, with religious extremist, and many people fed up will all of that craziness and violence. They are on the road to suicide, and they have the bomb, without anyone to oppose them.

            US is no more a danger, no budget, no more any dare to launch a new war…

            what LENR can do is make Iran and Irak less interesting for CIA to put their nose, putting oil elite in danger, and promoting small scale industrial business, that profit the population.
            It can also weaken the saudi , enough , to make iran more comfortable.

            will helps oily africa to escape oil corruption too, and maybe help development of a local industry (LENR can be reinvented easily with few investment in R&D).

            anyway geopolitic of Iran, Islam, oil is complex, and far from what the news say.

            It is better to be a woman in Iran, than in Gaza bank or Saudi. Even if people are furious that all change are blocked by the “Experts Council” of mullah.

  10. C M Edwards

    February 8, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    Their self destruct is a safety system? Darn. I was hoping for something more like Mission Impossible. “This kernel will self destruct in 10 seconds,” and so forth…

    How the trigger field is applied might make a difference. Electricity for resistance heating can be applied at any voltage or waveform as long as the resistance power loss is the same. So, if the trigger was just heat, any old power supply would do as long as it had enough current. (AC current, DC current, etc.) However, if a constant high voltage field is required, then low current options like RF stimulation and high voltage DC become the best choice. High voltage places unique demands on power supplies, and the hardware required becomes quite characteristic toward the top of the voltage scale. It might be time to take another look at those pictures of Rossi’s power supply.

    @Dale: “When” is a very good question for evaluating Defkalion’s individual claims. However, it’s insufficient for evaluating the other potential competitors declaring themselves, because there’s a different answer for each. Please recall that the majority of the world’s scientists do not accept that cold fusion (LENR, LANR, whatever) even exists. Having an answer for when Hyperion goes on sale can’t fix that situation. The resolution to the more general problem of disbelief requires that there actually be a Hyperion (E-Cat, NANOR, whatever) made available for public examination. Getting the answer to “Does it work?” is more important in the short term than knowing DGT’s projected timeline.

    Incidentally, I’m pleased to see JET Energy stepping into this little race in a big way. By the end of their ongoing demo at MIT, the NANOR guys will be enjoying pretty much the same place Rossi was at in April of last year. If they proceed to open testing in the next two months, they can beat Defkalion and Leonardo to public confirmation – a feat made much easier by the fact that their latest demo was made in a university lab instead of a private one.

    • Timar

      February 8, 2012 at 8:09 pm

      That’s nonsense.

      JET-Energy is lightyears away from where both DGT and Rossi claim to be – the device demonstrated at the MIT produced less than 0.1W excess heat.

      • C M Edwards

        February 9, 2012 at 4:13 pm

        No, not nonsense.

        The 0.1 W statement is true enough for the individual NANOR units, each of which appears to be relatively small – a core size of a few CC’s compared to the 50 CC and larger cores that Rossi has shown. They probably have significantly lower power density than the e-cat, too.

        Swartz has previously claimed that he operated a set of similar reactors together to produce up to 19 W. He claimed he used it to run a miniature Sterling Engine. That does not compare favorably to Defkalion’s claims of >45000 W or Rossi’s claims of >1000000 W for their own composite sets. Also, his claims of heat are normalized to 1 W, not 0.1 W, meaning that the NANOR probably only reaches 5 degrees Celsius temperature differential, not the 50 degrees shown in Swartz’s announcement, and certainly not the 500 degrees claimed by Rossi.

        Compared to the E-cat and Hyperion claims, the raw NANOR output numbers are almost pathetic. It’s like comparing a shrew to an elephant. An old, fat, tired shrew.

        But sometimes what you need is a shrew. There are applications for that kind of miniature heating unit – something that runs on milliwatts and fits in places where only a shrew can go. We haven’t been given an idea of their maximum run time, but Phusor/NANOR systems already have accumulated as much public demonstration operating time as all of Rossi’s demos put together, so there are no obvious deficiencies there. Rossi claims his E-Cat Home can heat a house, but you don’t want a house on an actuator arm joint or a downhole sensor. NANOR has potential niche markets just like the home heaters and industrial boilers we’re hoping for from DGT or Leonardo.

        I think those markets will be Jet Energy’s for the taking, if they can demonstrate reproducibility. But the catch is that they must let other people demonstrate it for them. Trotting out the latest reactor design for adult show and tell is all well and good, but people wanting to buy one will want to know what it can do for them.

        • Timar

          February 10, 2012 at 10:17 am

          Of course there will be applications for very low power LENR devices – but those will be scaled-down Ni-H devices. The NANOR system works with expensive Pd cathodes and heavy water, producing minuscule amounts of power – it would have to run for tens of years to reach break-even – with present energy costs.

          • C M Edwards

            February 10, 2012 at 2:46 pm

            Cheaper materials and fuel like Ni-H would be a serious improvement if they work at lower temperatures. And, Swartz’s miniature Stirling engine demo aside, NANOR is almost ridiculously unsuitable for any large scale power generation application. Regardless of the COP, the power output is too low for efficient conversion.

            However, as long as COP >> 1, breakeven is not critical for non-power generation applications. There are more sensible things do do with a miniature heating element than making electricity.

    • Alain

      February 8, 2012 at 10:30 pm

      just recently there is an anounce
      for a conference at CERN on LENR
      with Celani for experimental review,
      and Srivastava for theorica review (Widom-Larsen-Srivastava Theory base on weak interaction, the inverse beta)

      not so big and long, but the fact that it is not banned is a fact.

    • Brad Arnold

      February 9, 2012 at 6:53 am

      “The resolution to the more general problem of disbelief requires that there actually be a Hyperion (E-Cat, NANOR, whatever) made available for public examination.”

      I predict that even independent validation of Rossi or Defkalion claims of greater than 6 COP from LENR still won’t resolve the general problem of disbelief. Instead, only successful commercialization will, just like Rossi said at his first news conference more than a year ago.

      Sad that it takes such lengths to convince people:

      “The white man often scoffs at things he has never seen or does not understand.” -Master of Sinanju

  11. Martin

    February 8, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    Well done Defkalion! I suspect Rossi’s involvement with national instruments is providing the same control mechanisms that Defkalion now has (or something close to).

    Well done Philips!!! The future never looked better!

  12. arian

    February 8, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    Look like Russians have nightmare because of rossi.

    written by Vladimir Leonov

    winner of the Russian Government in the field of science and technology, “CIS Director of the Year 2007” is included in the “100 Leaders of the Commonwealth Science and Industry”, the author of several scientific discoveries and inventions. (Theory of Superunification)

    • Peter Roe

      February 8, 2012 at 7:48 pm

      Great find Arian! Fascinating how CF fared no better in Russia than in the US. The parallels are amazing, right down to the personal histories of Rossi and Petrik. The Usherenko effect definitely needs investigating, but doesn’t sound too promising an an energy source.

    • Alain

      February 8, 2012 at 10:46 pm

      in china too it seem.
      it is reported by JP Biberian that 21 chinese labs work on LENR.

      at WSEC2012 in italy (conference on renewable energies – nb: they are the real scammer )
      Celani talk of a beautiful chinise girl not talking english, but asking via interpret many details on the powder shape they used…

  13. Robert Munson

    February 8, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    Does anyone know AR is going to respond to these new developments?

    • dsm

      February 8, 2012 at 10:14 pm

      0.02 cents worth of thoughts

      Re Rossi ‘responding’ to Hyper’s statements:-
      Why should he ? – has he got more than enough to focus on just getting an eCat plant set up and operational.

      But, again I am sure I read where Rossi went through a long period of testing where reactor meltdowns kept occurring before he found a way to constrain the max output of energy to be manageable even in the event of a runaway.

      Hmmm, It may be that Rossi woke up to the need to stack many smaller units together as protection against a larger unit getting into a runaway failure. Perhaps Defkalion are still in the early learning stages of this ?

      Small units failing are far easier to manage than a very large one doing so. Certainly if the manufacturer wants to sell in volume to a mass market.

      Doug M

  14. Jouni

    February 8, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    This you all must allready know,

    • Peter Roe

      February 8, 2012 at 8:08 pm

      Interesting. Another snippet of information to squirrel away in case it seems to fit into the jigsaw at some point…

    • CuriousChris

      February 9, 2012 at 12:14 am

      This is not nuclear. It is a thermal process.

      The energy or heat is provided by the arc thus is electrical in source. The hydrogen acts as a carrier. it disassociates at the arc absorbing the energy from the arc. Then re-associates at the work surface resulting in very high heats.

      Certainly an interesting device, but tigs/migs are cheaper just not as hot. Love the name “arc-atom welding” its so Flash Gordon.

      • Roger Bird

        February 9, 2012 at 3:41 pm

        Jouni did not imply that it was nuclear. This tells me that CuriousChris is so hellbent of debunking LANR that he can’t even see that Jouni was trying to present evidence that perhaps isolated H atoms are not feasible. I doubt if CuriousChris has even looked at the evidence for LANR.

    • jcragris

      February 9, 2012 at 2:31 pm

      the brown’s gas (Hydroxy or 2HO) is better!!
      see this video at 5:02 :
      and this web site:

      you can read this at 9): The flame can fuse plastic to titantium.
      at 11):Directing the flame at Americium the radiation was reduced 96%.

      It seems that the brown gas can reduce the radioactivity!!!!

      • Peter Roe

        February 9, 2012 at 4:00 pm

        There is a huge amount of evidence that something strange but real is happening with these ‘resonance hydrolysis’ systems, even if they are not in Thicket’s 1946 school physics textbook. It may or may not involve ‘HHO’ but it does bear proper investigation, as it is a repeatable phenomenon involving some very unusual effects. As a possible unknown state of hydrogen may again be involved, perhaps it will be easier to work out exactly what is happening, when LANR is fully understood.

  15. dariog

    February 8, 2012 at 7:56 pm

    Maybe that the whole point in the above is that you use chemical energy (electrolysis) to split water into hydrogen, and then LENR to recreate it. This would explain the evnergy gain.

    • Alain

      February 8, 2012 at 10:50 pm

      no, hydrogen last too long, and calorimetric measures in labs experiments have tested that hypothesis.

      the high energy of atomic H recombination, does not create new energy, just give it back violently after having absorbed it to dissociate H2

      this effect is explained by defklion when they talk about heat after death by H recombination in H2

  16. Billkt4ye

    February 8, 2012 at 9:07 pm

    The Burst—>Power—>Quench—>Burst etc sounds a *lot* like the description associtaed with the Ampenergy (Papp motor much refined) using Noble gases.

  17. Eldering_G

    February 8, 2012 at 9:20 pm

    From Krivit: CERN Recognizes LENRs, Widom-Larsen Theory(

    One of the most well-established nuclear physics institutions in the world, CERN, the European Centre for Nuclear Research, will host a colloquium on low-energy nuclear reaction research in March.

    A general colloquium, “Overview of Theoretical and Experimental Progress in Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR),” will take place at CERN on March 22, from 4:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. in the council chamber.

    • Ransompw

      February 8, 2012 at 10:36 pm

      Well hosting a colloquium (which simply means they are going to listen to what Cellini, etc. have to say) isn’t exactly recognizing LENR, but then again what would you expect from Krivit. The “Master of the half truth”. It seems like everything he writes is intended to mislead.

      I am glad CERN is going to listen and hopefully maybe after listening they will agree to recognize “Cold Fusion”/LENR, but this is just another example of inaccuracies and misleading reporting from Krivit.

      By the way did anyone read his blog on “SPAWAR LENR research at risk”? Well get this, allegedly SPAWAR research is at risk because a FOX reporter wrote a negative article about Rossi. Now that is hillarious considering that most of the negative stuff written about Rossi traces back to something he wrote. I guess his writing had nothing to do with it.

      • CuriousChris

        February 9, 2012 at 12:30 am

        Just hosting a “colloquium” (a [informal] conference at which scholars or other experts present papers on, analyze, and discuss a specific topic). Is a great step forward.

        I believe the word ‘recognise’ is entirely adequate. Its not an endorsement, its a recognition that something is going on and we need to look into it.

        As a reporter, Krivit appears to be much too emotional. He has been doing this a long time and has probably had a huge amount of criticism over that time. so perhaps cutting him some slack is in order? I do think the whole recent swartz thing was poorly done though, he could have ratified the material he received rather than being so quick to print it. his retraction is also sorely lacking.

        When it comes to half truths just read a few of the comments on this blog. half truths and misleading information is the order of the day. so a fair bit of pot-kettle going on here.

        • Ransompw

          February 9, 2012 at 4:26 am

          When a headline reads CERN recognizes LENR it certainly implies more then allowing someone to mention it at a meeting, it implies support by CERN of the science, that hasn’t happened yet. His headline is deceiving, intentionally so.

          I am as happy as anyone they have agreed to listen, that is a step forward. Just not the step Krivit implied by his headline.

      • CuriousChris

        February 9, 2012 at 12:58 am

        “I guess his writing had nothing to do with it.” Yes, that would be correct.

        A 60 minutes report sort of trumps a blog by oh by about a billion fold. There have been many many Rossi detractors. but in the main media the ones that department heads and politicians watch, how many has there been?

        • Ransompw

          February 9, 2012 at 4:08 am

          And the Fox reporter has what to do with 60 minutes. I saw no main line reporter doing any investigation, what they did is repeat other things on the net, including some of things from Krivit.

          Obviously, you don’t hold Krivit in the same low regard I do. Suit yourself.

          • CuriousChris

            February 9, 2012 at 8:01 am

            Sorry You are right I was thinking of an older report on 60 minutes. My Bad. But the point is still valid.

            You credit Krivit much more influence than he really has. His blog is read by people who are interested in CF NOT by decision makers and Pollies etc.

            I certainly hold Krivit in much higher regard than many other CF reporters and commentators. but I am aware of his faults and factor that in to my reading of his blog.

          • dsm

            February 9, 2012 at 11:43 pm

            I agree with the old adage that if muck is thrown, some usually sticks.

            IMHO Krivit throws a lot of ‘careless’ muck at the very people who are CF & LENR champions & experts whilst he isn’t. Krivit does get far too emotional and IMHO can be accused of a dysfunctional attitude to this whole topic.

            I like the material he gathers but find too many of his ‘rants’ distasteful in the way they too often do unfair harm .

            Doug M

    • Haldor

      February 9, 2012 at 7:43 am

      The date March 22nd is rather curious because on March 23 1989 Pons & Fleischmann made their historic announcement….

    • Roger Bird

      February 9, 2012 at 3:46 pm

      Very few people will attend this event. And those that do will be wearing masks.

      Let us get socially real, guys. LANR is not ready for the big time and will not be ready for the big time until Rossi or Defkalion or someone else starts selling units.

    • Timar

      February 10, 2012 at 10:42 am

      Great news concerning the CERN colloquium:

      “Please note that this event will be available live via the Webcast Service”

  18. Paul Stout

    February 8, 2012 at 10:20 pm

    Defkalion appears to have come to some logical means of controlling the reaction. I would be surprised if Rossi is not using methods very similar.
    If I were the engineer working on the project, I would make the nickel / catylist into a thin layer on the inside of the stainless steel pipe. Then, use heat plus an electromagnetic field to initiate the reaction. By using a thin layer for the reactor, you help cut down on the problems with thermal runaway while also increasing the ability of the reactor to dissapate the heat. It would also give a larger surface area in contact with the hydrogen.

    • Peter Roe

      February 8, 2012 at 10:31 pm

      Sounds feasible. A low-frequency field could generate heat by induction. If RF is required, this could be superimposed on the same coil.

      • CuriousChris

        February 9, 2012 at 12:36 am

        Twas my thoughts exactly.

        The hint is that Rossi had trouble with localised heat (according to DGT). He could not spread it through the entire material. by induction you can better control the heat. It does depend on the thickness of the material though. The heating is still outside to inside. Hmmm, unless the inductor is within the core. which may heat from the inside out, a method I believe should be more even in its heat propagation.

        • Peter Roe

          February 9, 2012 at 9:37 am

          Bearing in mind Rossi’s $10 estimated price tag for an ‘energy stick’ it must be pretty simple in construction.

          If Paul’s thin layer of nickel fuel could be ‘spun’ onto the inside surface of the tube in some sort of wet carrier (an inert ‘cement’ of some kind) it could then be baked in position. Or maybe the tube is just filled with slurry then drained, leaving a skin of fuel mix on the interior.

          If Rossi is using a light-metal-hydride or hydride mixture as a built-in hydrogen storage mechanism this could also be incorporated in the deposited layer, or placed loose in the central volume. If the layer is thin enough, an external induction coil should be fine for even heating, and would keep the price of the fuel element down.

          • Peter Roe

            February 9, 2012 at 9:55 am

            The main downside I see to such an arrangement might be the possibility of fuel elements being dropped, causing pieces of the fuel to detach from the steel casing. Packing the centre with either hydride mix or an inert filler (if the hydrogen donor is incorporated in the fuel layer) would probably hold any detached fuel in place, making the unit less delicate.

            Alternatively the fuel powder could simply be packed between the outer ss tube and an inner one. with no binding agent. Thinking about it, this seems more likely than a bound layer. It would even provide a hollow core into which a re-useable induction/RF coil could be inserted.

          • Peter Roe

            February 9, 2012 at 8:04 pm

            … or a resistance heater, or even water flow…

    • Alain

      February 8, 2012 at 10:53 pm

      I even think that rossi at the beginning was not competent enough to find that engineer trick…

      maybe that was NI job, or juste the idea of (if he exist) his very experienced client.

      • CuriousChris

        February 9, 2012 at 1:01 am

        Is it a case of Rossi being incompetent? or simply DGT got the e-cat on a platter. with a different perspective they came up with a different idea.

        New eyes always see a problem differently.

        • Timar

          February 10, 2012 at 10:50 am


          am I under a wrong impression that your strong scepticism is dwindling now that you engage in such argumentation? 😉

    • AB

      February 9, 2012 at 7:34 am

      > I would make the nickel / catylist into a thin layer on the inside of the stainless steel pipe

      That’s a clever idea, better than having loose nickel powder or a coated wafer placed into the chamber.

  19. Mahron - A4 B3

    February 9, 2012 at 2:52 pm

    This is all so frustrating. Give us the formula. Take us out of our misery. Be a hero.

  20. Dale G. Basgall

    February 9, 2012 at 3:46 pm

    L=p+t, spin secondary to primary oscillations. That is a very rough but basic start to an understanding of predictable events as several of my aquaintances are also picking out.

    Anyway, I don’t have a formula and it’s not mine to disclose, but there are some physicists getting really close in revealing what can be explained in conventional mathematical terms making the events calculable in the nickel pressure environment of LENR devices.

    Hopefully in less than two weeks from today, makes me kind of excited thinking the possiblilities there could be an explainable formula and theroy proving in fact and providing mechanical engineers what is needed to make a reactor more efficient than the competition.

    • Dale G. Basgall

      February 9, 2012 at 3:54 pm

      L=r x p , typo dislexic!

    • Peter Roe

      February 9, 2012 at 4:12 pm

      “calculable in the nickel pressure environment of LENR devices”

      Varying due to magnetostriction?

  21. Mike Johnson

    February 9, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    Somebody just answer this one question- why not simply use an e-cat to provide power to the electrical grid, it’s safer, far easier, more profitable, better patent protection, and quicker. The idea that it will be awhile before it generates electricity is absurd. I can hand crank electricity. If this thing is producing ‘heat’ or high temperature water…you would simply use the steam to turn a turbine.

    • Mahron - A4 B3

      February 9, 2012 at 6:49 pm

      Temperature is not high enough for the moment. Once it is, the turbines of nuclear power plants could be used to convert it I guess.

  22. Eldering_G

    February 9, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    Krivit reports: Great news for all LENR fans of gas-loading techniques and the Widom-Larsen theory: According to new information posted on the CERN Web site today, the March 22 CERN colloquium on LENR will be webcast.

    • dsm

      February 9, 2012 at 8:59 pm


      Got to hand it to Krivit – he not only drops messes on the floor of the playground but also drops nuggets of gold when not practicing the other.

      The CERN report is a v.good one …


      Doug M

      • dsm

        February 9, 2012 at 11:46 pm

        Hmmmm – maybe I spoke too soon. The original CERN event listing doesn’t quite match Krivit’s reinterpretation.

        Note to self, smack fingers for being too quick to post acceptance of a Krivit headline – naughty naughty !.

        Doug M 🙂

  23. Roger Bird

    February 9, 2012 at 9:23 pm

    I guarantee that there will be screaming and yelling and name calling. Fist fights may also break out. Who wants to bet. Unless of course no one attends. Some may attend wearing masks.

    • Timar

      February 10, 2012 at 3:09 pm

      Yeah, probably they’re all going to wear Guy Fawkes masks 🙂

  24. B Fast

    February 10, 2012 at 1:46 am

    I enjoyed reading the analysis of Krivit. He clearly believes that LENR, and particularly the work of Piantelli is valid. However, he is clearly the biggest critic of the LENR/cold fusion world. His perspective would be great if it weren’t so often so inaccurate and negatively biased. With friends like Steve Krivit, who needs enemies.

    • Neil Taylor

      February 10, 2012 at 4:40 am


    • DSM

      February 10, 2012 at 3:31 pm

      Well put

      Came to same conclusion myself but I do thank him for all the great material he has accumulated. I just wish I could like the guy but his rants can be so neurotic.

      Doug M

  25. Anony Mole

    February 10, 2012 at 6:08 am

    This feels like da Vinci duking it out with Daedalus. And here we are feeding off the marble chips and feathers drifting down from the workshops.

    Where’s the meat! Where are the real players? This sure ‘feels’ like a momentous paradigm shift. If so where are the heavies? The ones that will really come in and make this a reality. Not to denigrate Sig. Rossi and the Defkalion group, but where are the Intels, the General Electrics, the 3Ms, the Seimens of the world? You know, the players. Toyota was in the game for a while – have they gone underground with it?

    Yeah, yeah, I know, such a controversial discovery has to occur as a grassroots effort. Only with the little guys, the entrepreneurs, can such a technology see the light of day. Bah! This thing is a freaking gold mine. A money machine like no other. Look out 20 years. You think smartphones are hot? Try a dozen billion LENR cores out there cranking away. Cha-ching!

    We need to see state industry wading into this kiddie pool. Sure they’re slow and dumb but they’ve got the power to push this into the deep end. Time to see some real action in this space I’d say.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      February 10, 2012 at 7:48 am

      When Apple and Microsoft started, one might have similarly asked where is IBM. Concerning the financial value, if the thing is real it might be of the order of 100 trillion over 10 years, mostly coming from applications. Just a guess.

    • Timar

      February 10, 2012 at 3:15 pm

      The history of technology if full of examples of innovations which kicked former industrial giants out of business.

      They were often behaving like slow Goliaths who didn’t even notice the sling in Davids hand until it was too late for them.

  26. Neil Taylor

    February 10, 2012 at 7:47 am

    Anomy Mole,

    This technology can/will potentially disrupt the PRESENT power and controls (CASH INVESTMENTS) of those very same companies you quote. Of course they have there fingers somewhere in this pie, but who knows where and how much they are involved in its baking?

  27. M.R.

    February 10, 2012 at 2:03 pm

    If you are interested for Hydrogen production as a fuel, HYDROSOL is a good solution. As far as I know, it is in a commercialization phase research.

  28. Anony Mole

    February 12, 2012 at 5:54 am

    Where is Japan in all this? Now that’s a head scratcher. Japan imports the most coal, the most nat.gas and something like 6 million barrels of oil A DAY. They spend over a billion dollars every day to fuel their energy needs. You don’t think they’d like to have something cheaper than fossil fuels to run their country on? So, where are they? Where’s their news? What are they doing with LENR? It’s got to be something right? The Japanese have more to win in this than any of us.

    We continue to sputter every time Rossi sneezes or Defkalion dribbles a bit of new info. If this is not just some pie in the sky dream the Japanese are hard onto this thing right-this-moment and will easily beat the Italian and the Greeks to the punch.

  29. Joe Shea

    February 13, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    The problem of intermittent bursts of high energy production is what has also held up deployment of the BlackLight Power “hydrino” reactor designed by Dr. Randall Mills. I don’t think solving it is a simple issue. He’s been dealing with it for years!

  30. lebirchan

    February 14, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    Who is worrying about e-cath reaction when you now can aboundant Hydrogen at a very cheap price. If you use catalytic carbon as deveoloped by the philips Pharmaceutical company you are now able to produce as much hydrogen from water as you wish since the process can be scaled at any seize providing there is sufficient aluminium powder present to react with the oxygen. Philips company are prepared to send samples of their catalytic carbon at cost price. Like $51 for 2 lbs when shipped internationally. The process works since it is an exoterm process it continues once the water has been heated to 80celsius which is necessar to start the process.

    You can all read about if you follw the link…/phillips-announces-worlds-best-ca