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A Score For eCat Sceptics?

January 28, 2012

A curious message has popped up in the comments section of 22passi. The blog, owned by Daniele Passerini (a close friend of Dr Levi) has, in the past, been a source of good information on the cheerleading bench. I would not normally post such an obtuse hint of a hint (the comment is Daniele’s) but since it seems to promise an important piece of information which will dent ‘belief’ I thought you should know. That 22passi is the first to give this hint is interesting in itself and I wonder how damning it could be.

Here is a human translation courtesy of AB

I have an announcement.. uhm. It has nothing to do with Bologna, where everything is going well. It has nothing to do with the fact that I’m more than convinced that one day the (honest) skeptics that have painted us as believers will have to apologize. But alas, today I came to know of something for which we will be made fun of for a while before the e-cat story comes to a happy end. Remember these words and prepare yourself to be mocked.

In a further comment he gives this (Again, translated by AB):

@ Guido52 No, I was referring to something that will involve Focardi, Rossi and (!) Celani. When it happens you will understand what I meant. For the nth time (a neologism made for you): I DON’T CARE WHETHER ROSSI COMMERCIALIZES IN A YEAR OR TEN. OK, I hope it happens as soon as possible, but I mostly care about HAVING EXPERIMENTS BEING DONE AT UNIBO. I HAVE ALWAYS SAID THAT ON THE DAY THIS FALLS THROUGH, I WOULD BE THE FIRST TO CRITICIZE ROSSI. Why he has released these videos is a mystery to me. At least you have to acknowledge that if he truly was a crook, he would only be hurting himself.

Place your bets.

[With thanks to Francesco CH and AB]

Posted by on January 28, 2012. Filed under Media & Blogs. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

147 Responses to A Score For eCat Sceptics?

  1. HanzJager

    January 28, 2012 at 10:09 am

    And we wait patiently for the rest of the story. 🙂

    • daniel maris

      January 29, 2012 at 12:17 pm

      Sounds like you’ll have a long wait…you been had as we say in the UK…

  2. georgehants

    January 28, 2012 at 10:23 am

    Rossi has left open a time schedule that means confirmation of his device could be years in the future as no new customer of the 1MW unit has been announced that could confirm it’s authenticy.
    Defkalion on the other hand have committed to tests any time now that are allowed to be reported on.
    They have purposely put themselves into a corner from which there can be no reasonable excuse to delay.
    The wait for conformation would seem to be just weeks away and any delay would raise suspicions to a very high level.

    • Alain

      January 28, 2012 at 6:37 pm

      main difference between defkalion and rossi is
      that when rossi thinks he can do something, he tel that he can do it and will show it soon…
      then he have problems

      defkalion, when they are not sure, say they cannot talk on the subject, that they have nothing to show or tell.

      and when it works, they check it many times to be sure, and then they say: come and see, it works.

      they have no possible excuse to delay the test, but they know it is easy, and it will work.
      anyway if something really unexpected happens, they will explain… but their excuse should be better than the one of rossi…

      anyway rossi have something, but he have over sold it. he could work in IT selling vaporware! it is fashion but risky.

  3. georgehants

    January 28, 2012 at 10:26 am

    From Technorati
    Social Analytics Makes a ‘Quantum Leap’
    http://technorati.com/blogging/article/social-analytics-makes-a-quantum-leap/

  4. Mahron - A4 B3

    January 28, 2012 at 10:28 am

    I don’t understand…

    • georgehants

      January 28, 2012 at 10:49 am

      Big brother, governments and big business will have the information of social trends and opinions under scrutiny to control the populations.

      • Mahron - A4 B3

        January 28, 2012 at 11:16 am

        No I was talking about the post, I don’t get it.

        Populations can not be controlled other than by brute force. We can be in influenced by ideology at best, because we are a very passive species.

        • jjjioman

          January 28, 2012 at 3:10 pm

          Humanity can be LIMITED by controlling the growth rate of certain technologies.

  5. Tony

    January 28, 2012 at 11:03 am

    So how can AB make that translation and not the other?

    • AB

      January 28, 2012 at 11:31 am

      Here it is

      No, I was referring to something that will involve Focardi, Rossi and (!) Celani. When it happens you will understand what I meant. For the nth time (a neologism made for you) time: I DON’T CARE WHETHER ROSSI COMMERCIALIZES IN A YEAR OR TEN. OK, I hope it happens as soon as possible, but I mostly care about HAVING EXPERIMENTS BEING DONE AT UNIBO. I HAVE ALWAYS SAID THAT ON THE DAY THIS FALLS THROUGH, I WOULD BE THE FIRST TO CRITICIZE ROSSI. Why he has released these videos is a mystery to me. At least you have to acknowledge that if he truly was a crook, he would only be hurting himself.

      • Mahron - A4 B3

        January 28, 2012 at 11:40 am

        Ho now I get it, he is saying nothing.

      • SH

        January 28, 2012 at 11:45 am

        Thanks AB.

        What have AR done or not done now? Stay tuned to the mad scientist show!
        This guy is out of control. Be aware, he is more than capable of messing this up all on his own.

        Thank you god for bringing the technology to greece.

      • admin

        January 28, 2012 at 12:12 pm

        Thanks, AB. Much better. Post updated.

        Paul

        • AB

          January 28, 2012 at 12:30 pm

          “For the nth time (a neologism made for you) time”

          Remove the second “time” please.

          • admin

            January 28, 2012 at 12:51 pm

            Done. Thanks, AB

            Paul

      • bkrharold

        January 29, 2012 at 10:51 pm

        It looks like he is implying that Rossi, Focardi, and Celani cooked up some phony videos, overselling the ecat capabilities, and that their stunt is about to be revealed publicly to the embarrassment of everyone concerned

    • Peter Roe

      January 28, 2012 at 11:35 am

      Passerini is warning us (‘believers’) that we are being spun a line and that this fabrication involves not only Focardi and Rossi, but also Celani, a supposed competitor. I assume that he expects some news to break shortly that will give the ‘skeptics’ a field day, but that in the longer term the ‘believers’ will be vindicated.

      As I said a little earlier, we are in the position of the proverbial mushrooms – but we know that. I’m fascinated to see what this supposed development will involve, if Passerini is not just flying a kite.

      I’m not sure why he is so exercised by the termination of the original research contract. Things change all the time, and Rossi’s declared aim is to get something on the shelves, whether or not physics has caught up with developments.

      • daniel maris

        January 28, 2012 at 2:21 pm

        Well I have never had any emotional investment in Rossi…in the sense that that would cloud my judgement. If Focardi were to come out and say Rossi was scamming I would take that VERY seriously. I find it difficult to believe Focardi is part of a scam, so I would want to see the evidence for that.

        Might the story not be that the “customer” has cancelled the contract because of failure of the 1MW to perform?

        Speculation is fun when it’s not your head on the line.

        • Conrad

          January 31, 2012 at 11:07 am

          Has it been moved from the port yet??

          I would guess he hasn’t actually sold it at all.

  6. SH

    January 28, 2012 at 11:18 am

    Good lord. What is it this time?

    That second comment is just jibberish, can we get a human translation of that one too?

    AB? Francesco?

  7. Pekka Janhunen

    January 28, 2012 at 11:54 am

    AB, some more 22passi to translate:
    Ero in CC a quelle lettere. Se dovessi mettere tutto quello che mi arriva sul blog non mi basterebbe lavorarci 24h/24 e questo per me non è un lavoro! 🙂 Per me è stato sufficiente riportare sul blog IL VERO COMUNICATO UFFICIALE DI UNIBO. Il lavoro da giornalista lo lascio fare agli amici giornalisti come Paolo Soglia. Un abbraccio

    P.S. la situazione dentro l’ateneo è chiara, basta leggere con attenzione e intelligenza tutto quello che è uscito in questi giorni, in forme sia ufficiose sia ufficiali.

    In the first paragraph maybe there is nothing new? The P.S. says that everything about UniBo is clear if one just collects all his and other news together?

    • AB

      January 28, 2012 at 1:00 pm

      I was a secondary recipient of those letters. If I had to put everything that I receive on my blog, working 24/24 wouldn’t suffice and for me this [blog] isn’t my job. For me it was enough to report THE TRUE OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT FROM UNIBO. I let my journalist friends, like Paolo Soglia, do the journalist work.

      A hug.

      PS: the situation in the university is clear, it’s enough to read everything that has been revealed in the last days, both officially and unofficially, carefully and with intelligence.

      [The meaning of the first phrase is not 100% clear, but I think it refers to being on the CC list of emails that were sent out]

      • Peter Roe

        January 28, 2012 at 1:28 pm

        The more I hear about what Passerini has said, the more I think he is just blowing off about the terminated UniBo research contract.

        He seems to be on another page from the rest of us. Passerini wants to see teams of egg-heads examining e-Cat’s entrails in detail, and is pissed off about the lapsed research contract, while the rest of us just want to see the world transformed and couldn’t really give a toss about what makes an e-cat or hyperion go, just so long as they do.

        • daniel maris

          January 28, 2012 at 2:22 pm

          I did wonder that originally. Some scientists do work on different timescales!LOL

          • Peter Roe

            January 28, 2012 at 3:45 pm

            And different priorities; Mmm, transform the world for the better, regenerate national economies and end many of the world’s most pressing problems? — or, fill in a few gaps in theoretical physics?

            Tricky.

        • AB

          January 28, 2012 at 5:27 pm

          Independent validation of the e-cat may be the fastest way to spread LENR technology.

          Rossi was taken seriously enough to revive interest in LENR and cause at least one company, Defkalion, to focus creating a commercial LENR device. There are probably several more that have resumed or started similar work only due to Rossi’s influence and despite the testing that was less than optimal.

          Now imagine that undeniable proof of LENR was offered. It would start a technology race like no other.

          Unfortunately validating LENR earlier than necessary can be seen as a bad move from a business point of view, depending on the circumstances.

          All this assumes some faith in the moral integrity and willingness of the scientific community though, which not everyone may have.

  8. Shaun Taylor

    January 28, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    Any news on when Kullander will release the promised ash analysis?

  9. Ivy Matt

    January 28, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    Obviously he’s referring to this:

    http://optics.org/news/3/1/37

    • daniel maris

      January 28, 2012 at 2:24 pm

      Interesting – that technology is new to me!

      I did wonder about this though:

      “once gain can be achieved” – sounds like they are not there yet!

    • Pekka Janhunen

      January 28, 2012 at 2:34 pm

      Sorry I’m lost, who’s referring to inertial confinement fusion?

      • Peter Roe

        January 28, 2012 at 3:25 pm

        I wondered that, but just thought I was probably being even slower than normal today! Interesting stuff though, even if the technology is already obsolete as a power source and probably only good as a research tool.

        • Ivy Matt

          January 28, 2012 at 4:03 pm

          Oh, I agree that LIFE is ultimately unlikely to be able to compete with the Polywell or the Dense Plasma Focus. Such is life.

      • Ivy Matt

        January 28, 2012 at 4:01 pm

        Daniele Passerini. Just pointing out the possibility that cold fusion, LENR, or whatever you wish to call it may be upstaged in the near future, barring some real news.

    • LCD

      January 29, 2012 at 4:25 am

      Oh God no it’s definitely not that. That’s in a lab and under commercial-noway conditions.

      Then they have to actually harness the energy released.

      If passerini is talking about that he’s being overly dramatic. Oh wait that’s how he was about the pictures of the fatcat.

      • Ivy Matt

        January 30, 2012 at 10:31 am

        Just having a bit of fun. I don’t think it’s that, as I’m sure there are plenty of other things Passerini could be overly dramatic about.

  10. Shaun Taylor

    January 28, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    Maybe this is what is being referred to?

    24 November 2011 Rossi claims to be making steam at 450 deg C with the 1 MW plant.
    http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510&cpage=35#comment-130266

    27 January 2012 Rossi claims it will take 1 year to achieve 400 deg C steam with the 1 MW plant.
    http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510&cpage=44#comment-175957

    Or this?

    This is a picture of how Rossi heats his Bologna E-Cat factory were the 1 MW reactor is located (you know the same unit that Rossi said was “GONE” yet it never left) as well as where his R&D facilities are located.

    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/515/howrossiheatsthebologna.jpg/

    • SH

      January 28, 2012 at 3:29 pm

      Hi Shaun, have not seen any comments from you on vortex-l recently.

      What happened?

      • Shaun Taylor

        January 28, 2012 at 3:41 pm

        Got booted off Vortex. Was told it is a LENR believers forum. I have no problem with LENR being real. I have yet to see anything that says Rossi’s Ecat is real.

        Seems they didn’t like me showing one of the ways Rossi faked the 6 Oct data.

        Jed claimed he had data and photos which would prove the Ecat worked. I asked him to publish them. He said he couldn’t. I said then they do not exist, so stop mentioning them as if they do.

        • Ransompw

          January 28, 2012 at 3:56 pm

          You deserved to get booted off and it had nothing to do with the Jed issue. When I get over 500 emails over a weekend a large # instigated by you and a few others it is time to kick you off.

          The Vortex souldn’t be used as a message board for the kind of debate you were into last weekend. And your posts were pretty condescending as well.

          • Shaun Taylor

            January 28, 2012 at 4:21 pm

            Rossi refuses to allow independent testing.

            Rossi speak has no validity.

            He claimed to have shipped the 1 <W plant, It never left. He lied

            He claimed to have gone to the US customers site to do the install. As the 1 MW plant was still in his factory, he lied,

            In late Nov he claimed he had achieved 450 deg C steam, Now he says he HOPES to achieve 400 deg C steam in 12 months. Again he lied.

            He placed the 6 Oct Tout sensor in such a way as to cause it to register a higher than reality exhaust water temperature. The 6 Oct delta T data is not accurate.

            The delivery of the home Ecat has been pushed back 12 to 18 months.

            The facts are that Rossi has never delivered a single Ecat to a independent customer, despite claiming he has done so.

            He claims to be heating his facilities with Ecat heat. The only heaters visible are standard LPG heaters. When it is cold he and everyone else wears heavy coats. Where are the Ecat heaters he claims he uses? Why does he make his visitors suffer the cold?

            He claims to be working with NI to fine tune the 1 MW plant control system. The 1 MW plant that is in his factory is not operational nor is it connected to a heat load nor circulatory water system. Please explain how NI is working with the customer and Rossi to fine tune the control system?

            Please show me one thing we have seen that suggest the story he is telling the world is more than his wish list?

          • Ransompw

            January 28, 2012 at 4:42 pm

            Lewan’s second test is proof of a LENR reactor. So, I feel pretty sure Rossi has a working LENR reactor. I don’t think he can control it. I don’t think he can keep it working. And, I don’t think he has a commercial product. So I really don’t believe most of his Rossi says, but so what?

        • SH

          January 28, 2012 at 4:31 pm

          Well of course you were booted off!

          What did you expect? When you are acting like a raving lunatic it is time to take a timeout.

          Yes i know rossi is a dodgy fellow, everyone knows!

          Still you cannot deny the fact that it is enough evidence on the table to sit this one out and see what happens, or..?

        • James Bowery

          January 28, 2012 at 7:57 pm

          Yes I can attest to the fact that Shaun Taylor even looks like Jesus. Who knows, he may be a descendant of a Merovingian survivor of the Holocaust or something.

          Whatever he is, he clearly is an innocent victim, crucified, gassed and cremated for bringing light unto the heathen at vortex-l.

          Yea, though he is RISEN!

          • Peter Roe

            January 28, 2012 at 8:17 pm

            I’ll get some nails…

    • GreenWin

      January 28, 2012 at 3:50 pm

      Awesome piece of detective work ST! I guess that makes LENR a fraud – just like they said 22 years ago.

      • Shaun Taylor

        January 28, 2012 at 3:59 pm

        I believe LENR is real as were the results that F&P obtained in 1989. I have read most of the papers on http://www.lenr-canr.org

        As for the Ecat I have looked at all the published data. There is nothing there to convince me the data is accurate. There is no independent data. No data from observed supplied monitoring equipment. None. Don’t you find that strange?

        Digital meters are notoriously unreliable when measuring non linear loads and non sinusoidal waveforms. I amazes me that no one every bothered to use a scope to check the waveforms being fed into the Ecat. I know from experience how easy it is to be fooled by digital meters.

        • GreenWin

          January 28, 2012 at 5:54 pm

          ST, we follow old school debunk methods like “reframe argument.” Yours is one such sadly outdated method. You attempt to frame Rossi as the single source of LENR evidence. Hoping by casting aspersions on a single leader, ignominy will discredit others.

          Immature in the networld ST. It is far bigger than you imagine. If all this LENR stuff is so much fodder for fraud, why has NASA NOT removed its PR video acknowledging LENR as subject of active NASA research? Why? Is NASA “in” on the Rossi conspiracy??

          http://technologygateway.nasa.gov/media/CC/lenr/lenr.html

          • John Milstone

            January 28, 2012 at 6:34 pm

            You said “You attempt to frame Rossi as the single source of LENR evidence”. Shaun Taylor did no such thing. He stated that he believed in LENR, but that Rossi was a fraud. He then gave a half dozen examples of Rossi lying. Why don’t you respond to what he actually said, instead of making up some straw man argument.

            Also, you bring up the NASA video in which Joe Zawodny stated that LENR was real. You left out the following quotes from him:

            When considered in aggregate I believe excess power has been demonstrated. I did not say, reliable, useful, commercially viable, or controllable.

            There have been many attempts to twist the release of this video into NASA’s support for LENR or as proof that Rossi’s e-cat really works. Many extraordinary claims have been made in 2010. In my scientific opinion, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I find a distinct absence of the latter. So let me be very clear here. While I personally find sufficient demonstration that LENR effects warrant further investigation, I remain skeptical. Furthermore, I am unaware of any clear and convincing demonstrations of any viable commercial device producing useful amounts of net energy.

            LINK

            There is nothing there to suggest that NASA or Zawodny believes Rossi’s claims.

          • Jeb Stondum

            January 29, 2012 at 3:32 am

            John Millstone joins ShawnT in old skrool obfuscation. Ineffective in a world that kills SOPA censorship legislation overnight (15M signatures.)

            Let me understand, you want to defend the newly risen ST who was booted off Vortex for being a troll?? Who Dr. Georgio answered in detail? And you have the temerity to quote a non-official personal opinion blog as proof of… er, what? That “Many extraordinary claims have been made in 2010.”

            Jimminy John, all Rossi’s demos were in 2011. NASA’s official video remains unchanged. GenX = 10, old skrool = 0.

          • John Milstone

            January 29, 2012 at 10:41 pm

            Jeb Stondum said:

            And you have the temerity to quote a non-official personal opinion blog as proof of… er, what? That “Many extraordinary claims have been made in 2010.”

            Jimminy John, all Rossi’s demos were in 2011. NASA’s official video remains unchanged.

            Wow! What a pathetic argument. On several levels.

            The “non-official personal opinion” was by the person who was quoted in the video. That is the very definition of “twisting this into something that supposedly supports Rossi”.

            And using an obvious typo (“2010” instead of “2011”) is a childish move. Maybe you’re the only person who never makes that mistake when, say, writing the first check of the new year.

  11. You humble servant

    January 28, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    This guy has had his feelings hurt about something.

    • Mahron - A4 B3

      January 28, 2012 at 3:25 pm

      Kindergarten talk. I know shit you don’t.

      • Al Potenza

        January 28, 2012 at 5:15 pm

        Good. Please let us in on the secret.

        • Mahron - A4 B3

          January 28, 2012 at 5:21 pm

          I was putting words in his mouth.

          He knows something but does not want to tell. Why come out and tease us ? Puerile.

          • Al Potenza

            January 28, 2012 at 5:28 pm

            Oh. Got it. Thanks.

  12. Dr. Georgio HidyhoHody

    January 28, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Dear Shaun Taylor,

    The comparison of statements made by Rossi in the links you provided overlooks the fact that in the second link he is answering only the last three questions posed, the very first question regarding 1 MW plant is passed over (not answered in the number-prefixed responses.) However, the last three questions are answered 1, 2, and 3 respectively and in proper order. Response 1 regards the Home E-Cat. This is fairly obvious. Read more carefully.

    The prototype ‘factory heater’ was already stated to be disused by Rossi, he said this quite a bit before this interview was conducted, so even supposing untruth regarding a factory heater your URL link to his blog is not evidential of lying or contradiction.

    Are you attempting to mislead like the transgendered George ‘Mary Yugo’ Hody of Thermonetics Corporation?

    • Neil Taylor

      January 28, 2012 at 6:31 pm

      Good sleuthing and conclusions – Thanks Doc…

      What the heck is Passerini beating his chest about. Unless he has something substantial and understandable to say, with supporting evidence, then he should quit feeding us lowly mushrooms meaningless BS…

    • John Milstone

      January 28, 2012 at 6:47 pm

      The prototype ‘factory heater’ was already stated to be disused by Rossi

      Well, then he should start using it again. Judging from all the photos of people wearing winter coats during the tests, it’s clear that the various E-Cats in use aren’t generating any usable heat!

      • Stephen

        January 28, 2012 at 7:26 pm

        The eternal war between the cold shoulder givers and the hotheads, Rossi is trying to channel the f(r)ictional energy.

      • Dr. Georgio HidyhoHody

        January 29, 2012 at 2:56 am

        John Millstone,
        Understand your point. If memory serves factory heater prototype heated office areas only. One hardly thinks (with hope this is a real paradigm shifting inventionrather than hoax) that Rossi would implement a radiant heat system, or HVAC blower in his warehouse style factory. If you have been to the mediterranean region you will find heating is of low emphasis, as it is so mild and temperate people tend to just shiver through the brief “winter” period with little space heaters – although this is not so in the most northern alpine regions of italy, it is certainly so for a fair share of italy, greece, israel.
        Suppose it’d be more likely if there are indeed little functional E-cats if that warehouse did have a blower/HVAC to reconfigure for steam heating. My hunch is even if so, he’d be paranoid of Celani types with pocketed gamma scouts sniffing their radiant photon spectra!

    • Joe Taylor

      January 29, 2012 at 12:38 am

      That is because Shaun acts like a chicken with his head cut off. He lasted just a few days on Vortex. It was so funny how many messages he pumped out saying the same thing in a span of a few days. His terminology was that of a teenager too. He drove everyone there crazy yet he was very quickly forgotten. BTW – they just exposed Mary Yugo.

  13. GreenWin

    January 28, 2012 at 6:09 pm

    Folks, if you’ve not seen it, there is an update at UK Wired documenting the Defkalion test program. The body of the article is still riddled with stupefying mis-statements e.g.

    “Cold fusion, otherwise known as “low energy nuclear reaction” (LENR) technology has yet to gain any scientific respectability.”

    I suppose NASA’s Langley Research Center waits breathless to gain respect in the eyes of the ever-so-wise Wired Magazine.

    For what it’s worth (two sticks?) here’s the link:

    http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-12/30/cold-fusion-rival?page=1

    • Peter Roe

      January 28, 2012 at 6:18 pm

      If I was paranoid (no personal comments, please) I might even think that someone had had a word in Wired’s editor’s ear. Certainly a change in tone.

      • GreenWin

        January 28, 2012 at 6:30 pm

        Exactly Peter. Or a coherent audible suggestion, at a distance;)

  14. Peter Roe

    January 28, 2012 at 6:13 pm

    As a maker of electrical instrumentation, Thermonetics corp don’t appear to have an axe to grind, so Mr Mary Yugo Hody must be on a one man crusade (on company time, presumably). California is pretty famous for its population’s reliance on shrinks, so hopefully George can find a good one easily.

    Just out of curiosity, has he been ‘outed’ elsewhere?

    P.S. Dr. Georgio HidyhoHody – like the new ID!

    • Tony

      January 28, 2012 at 6:26 pm

      Appears to be him, he has some involvment with calorimetry: search for george hody calorimetry using Google.

      That was in the late 1960’s / early 1970’s though.

      He’s often claimed to be involved, or previously involved, in designing systems to measure heat.

      Now he seems to be a retiree with too much time on his hands.

      • Peter Roe

        January 28, 2012 at 6:54 pm

        George (L.) Hody M.D. “MEASUREMENT OF TOXIC HAZARD DUE TO FIRING THE WEAPONS OF THE UH-1B ARMED HELICOPTER” 1969, “Direct “In situ” measurement of thermal insulation quality underwater” 1973, currently vice-president, Thermonetics Corporation. Does seem to be the same bloke (isn’t this interweb thing great!).

        Maybe he can get the shrink on his company insurance.

        • Frank

          January 28, 2012 at 7:34 pm

          That means that you should keep in mind if this one is the person who used the nickname ‘maryyugo’ for his comments, the comments were made by someone who has a profound knowledge about measurements on thermal systems.

          • Peter Roe

            January 28, 2012 at 8:10 pm

            Dr Shipman presumably had profound knowledge of human ailments. Unfortunately he was also a loony. So is ‘Mary Yugo’.

          • Dr. Georgio HidyhoHody

            January 29, 2012 at 4:33 am

            Frank,
            Mary Yugo/Dr. Hody is not very sane at all.
            *Warning Seedy content posted by Yugo/Hody*
            [Not work safe nor child safe]
            http://www.sensibleerection.com/entry.php/74100
            Google “ixtractor + maryyugo”* to learn more about what Yugo-Hody does whilst not spamming and defaming people thoughtfully trying to debate matters of LENR/LANR/CF research to peddle his Thermonetics Corp. thermocouples/thermistors products by arousing doubts in measurement and metric accuracy [he may have used this goodcop (Hody) badcop (Yugo) approach on Dr. Edmond Storms and others].

            Let see if he can scrub these postings too 🙂

            Kind Regards,
            Doc Hidyhody

          • Jeb Stondum

            January 29, 2012 at 11:15 pm

            Ah, it is now coming clear. “Mary Yugo” and ilk, are little more than common internet schlocksters pitching bare bums and peni. Toss ST and Millstone in with the perv and we get the anti-LENR hacksquad.

            Now back to real science that will uplift the human spirit.

  15. Stevie G

    January 28, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    YES DR ROSSI IS REAL – Independent validation – RIGHT – Rossi has already did this over and over FOR DARPA, not for the Oil Rep Skeptics – HE HAS ALREADY SAID – 1 Million Units in 18 months End of Story you will all just have to wait. stop crying OMG

  16. Roger Bird

    January 28, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    Not all of the hot air comes from Rossi and Defkalion. Most of it actually comes from skeptics and believers. It is all hot air until we have better confirmation, units being sold, or more compelling demonstrations.

    Obama saying that the US Navy was working on something that would heat people’s homes was very interesting, and not hot air, although Obama is usually the master of hot air.

  17. Shaun Taylor

    January 28, 2012 at 11:02 pm

    Mats Lewan has said he knew Rossi never shipped the 1 MW plant despite knowing Rossi has stated he had on many occasions.

    Lewan in an investigative reported. Why didn’t he report the plant was never shipped? Why did he cover up for Rossi?

    Both Focardi and Levi work in the factory were the 1 MW plant is located. Why did neither of them make statements that Rossi was not telling the truth about the lack of movement of the plant, despite Rossi saying he had gone to the customer’s US install site to do the install?

    Why did Focardi and Levi cover up another Rossi lie?

    Where is Levi’s “Lost Report” on the 18 hour Ecat test? Of all the test data, this one would be the most powerful, yet Levi says the test data was lost. Before the cover-up of multiple Rossi lies by Levi was known, he had some credibility but now his statement that the 18 hour test data was lost seems very strange and hard to believe.

    So we now know Lewan, Focardi and Levi have covered up Rossi lies. Makes you ask what else they know to be lies and are not disclosing.

    Wonder what the Kullander Ecat spent fuel analysis showed? The analysis was to have been produced before Christmas. It is now 1 month late.

    Has Rossi sucked Kullander into his make believe world. Has he has joined the Rossi cover up team?

    I do hope the spent fuel analysis will be released soon as apparently it is the only bit of the Ecat that has ever escaped Rossi’s control.

    Rossi claims to be heating his facilities with Ecats. Why it is so hard to post a picture of such a unit in operation?

    Rossi claims to be building 13 more 1 MW Ecats for his secret customer. Why is it so hard to post a photo of these units in construction?

    Rossi claims to have US facilities. Why is it he is only interviewed and videoed in his Bologna facility? Why is it so hard to post a photo of the US facility?

    Rossi claims to be working with the secret customer and NI on the control system, using the 1st 1 MW plant that is in his Bologna workshop. Why is that unit non operational? Why is there no water circulation system and heat exchanger fans attached? How can Rossi, the customer and NI test the plant when it is not connected to an operational load?

    In the latest video interview we can see a single industrial Ecat under test (behind Rossi). Where is the home Ecat being tested? It was there in the 1st video interview of the latest series. Why is it so hard to post a photo of the home Ecat being tested?

    Many more questions than answers.

    Shaun

    • Jay

      January 29, 2012 at 6:05 am

      “Rossi claims to have US facilities. Why is it he is only interviewed and videoed in his Bologna facility? Why is it so hard to post a photo of the US facility?”

      I think the answer may be that the US has really draconian laws with extremely draconian penalties against tritium production.

      • John Milstone

        January 29, 2012 at 1:51 pm

        Where in the world did you get the idea that Rossi was producing tritium?!?

        • Jay

          January 29, 2012 at 10:43 pm

          Tritium production is a byproduct of many cold fusion reactions including nickel-hydrogen.

          http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg49057.html

          In the US there are severe penalties for producing tritium because it’s associated with nuclear weapon production. The laws are also a convenient catch-all for locking up anybody that operates harmless cold fusion reactors in the US. The justice department only has to believe that your cold fusion device works to take action.

          • Ivy Matt

            January 30, 2012 at 10:46 am

            Tritium is a common product of deuterium fusion reactions. I am unaware of any hydrogen-nickel reaction that produces tritium and, unfortunately, I am unable to access http://www.mail-archive.com from my present location. I’m not a nuclear physicist, though, so I could be missing something. However, I don’t recall Rossi, Focardi, or Levi ever saying the E-Cat produced tritium. Gamma rays and neutrons, perhaps, but not tritium.

            Also, there are a number of small-scale hot fusion experiments around the United States that use deuterium fuel and, therefore, produce small amounts of tritium. They don’t seem to suffer from draconian regulations.

      • John Milstone

        January 29, 2012 at 2:50 pm

        So are you suggesting that Rossi is lying about having Florida factory? Or that Rossi is trying to evade the law with his Florida factory?

        That wouldn’t surprise me at all, but I always find it amusing when his fans make up excuses to cover for his lies.

    • Timar

      January 29, 2012 at 8:38 am

      Shaun,

      this is exactly why many people think sceptics like MY and you are more interested in spreading misinformation than in any productive discourse.

      The question whether Rossi lied about the container was discussed in-depth days ago. The outcome was: the notion that the container was “shipped” to the customer was an interpretation of Rossis words that spread through the blogosphere. Indeed, it was concluded that Rossi *never* said that the container had been shipped (noone was able to find any statement from Rossi where he said so). He only said once the container was “gone”. Now “gone” can be interpreted as physically gone, but also as gone out of sell/availability. Of course the latter meaning is a bit more far-fetched, but not as far-fetched as to presume Rossi did lie consciously – especially considering his sloppy English.

      It’s not my intention to rationalize Rossis behaviour which is erratic and inconsistent often enough. It amazes me however, that those people who always cry out for “proof”, do so unscrupulously come up with such an allegation, without offering any proof at all.

      Timar

  18. Shaun Taylor

    January 28, 2012 at 11:22 pm

    Rossi is now claiming to have started his LENR research in 1987. 2 years BEFORE the Fleischmann and Pons announcement in 1989. That was 25 years ago. After all that time Rossi doesn’t have a device he is willing to let someone else test, while F&P have been replicated many times over.

    “ROSSI: I started in 1987. My method differs from previous attempts obviously, as evidenced by the facts: no one has come to produce a machine that really works. These are the facts that count, not words.”

    http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2F22passi.blogspot.com%2F

    More Rossi ego speak?

  19. Shaun Taylor

    January 28, 2012 at 11:42 pm

    Better link to the “I started in 1987” Rossi speak statement.
    http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/36/3626-energycatalyzer.shtml

    Wonder what F&P think about that statement?

    Would love to see his dated lab notes and independent confirmation that he was doing LENR research BEFORE P&F.

    Shaun

    • JNewman

      January 29, 2012 at 9:48 pm

      Just for accuracy’s sake, the interview in which Rossi makes these claims is from January 2011. It’s a year old.

  20. leon

    January 29, 2012 at 12:44 am

    If he states he started in 1987, then he must have something than really works. Why go through all the trouble of making such statements if you haven’t got anything solid to show when the time comes? btw i definitely remember Rossi saying he was inspired by the Fleischmann and Pons announcement in 1989, He stated that they gave the world a vision, a “Dream”and he wanted to make it a reality.

    • John Milstone

      January 29, 2012 at 6:17 pm

      Why go through all the trouble of making such statements if you haven’t got anything solid to show when the time comes?

      The answer to that would be the millions of dollars from gullible investors.

      It’s worked for a lot of con men for years (even decades).

  21. Mike

    January 29, 2012 at 1:06 am

    @Peter Roe
    found a link for some news on Obama’s plans for clean energy research:
    http://www.earthtechling.com/2012/01/obama-plans-paint-aggressive-clean-energy-push/
    Not sure why the US Navy is singled out for mention or why they need an extra 1Gw of solar or wind power
    The report says no up front investment from the government so the money would have to be borrowed? or existing clean energy capacity could be used?
    Maybe they just need to buy a few Ecats

    • Peter Roe

      January 29, 2012 at 1:12 pm

      Not exactly wold-shaking is it – especially when viewed against the 10-fold increase in gas and oil jobs in a year. No link from Roger Bird yet, so its difficult to see what he could have been referring to.

  22. Shaun Taylor

    January 29, 2012 at 4:41 am

    Maybe Rossi needs to use more than a single 10 kW Ecat to heat his Bologna factory. I’m sure he has a few more, that is if they actually exist.

    http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510&cpage=44#comment-176489

    Rossi claims “As a matter of fact, we use the Bologna Laboratory only for experiments and tests, not every day but only now and again.”

    WFT? This Laboratory is where the 1 MW plant lives. The same plant that Rossi has said is being fixed and is being worked on by Rossi, the customer and NI to get it working in an exceptional way. Maybe I’m blind but I can’t see any evidence of the 1 MW plant doing anything else than taking up space and getting dusty. There is no water circulation system hooked up to the plant, no dual fan driven heat exchangers, no control system hooked up, no test equipment. In fact you can see the control system (in a tan box) sitting beside the plant but not hooked up. There is no work happening with that plant.

    I would have thought getting this plant up and working would have been a top priority, especially as the customer is waiting for it. But then maybe Rossi has moved on and no longer needs the not working 1 MW plant nor the secret customer who has never taken that they purchased into their possession. Sure make you wonder if there is a real customer or was the 28 Oct event just staged?

    No one, other than the customer’s engineer and Rossi, ever saw the data from the plant.

    Did you ever wonder why Rossi installed 107 Ecat modules? I was thinking that whatever trick Rossi used to make it look like the 6 Oct test ran for 3 hours in self sustain mode would need twice the number of Ecats to do a 5.5 hour self sustain mode demo. Funny the 28 Oct demo had twice the number of Ecats. Is this what Rossi did to make it look like the 28 Oct demo ran for 5.5 hours in self sustain mode?

    I predict the 1 MW plant will never move. Why? Because it has done it’s duty?

    Now we must believe and wait for 18 months until we can get delivery on the 10 kW Ecats we have ordered.

    No independent test will be done. When Rossi says pay up, either we pay up or miss out. Tell you what. NO independent tests, no money from me.

    BTW even if Rossi does get UL certification for the home Ecat, all that means is it will not kill you or burn down your home. It does not say it works nor for now long it will last.

    Bit of humour
    http://www.moletrap.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Rossicaptions

    Shaun

  23. LCD

    January 29, 2012 at 4:44 am

    I can’t remember the blog post but rossi states in his blog that the customer was letting him keep the 1 megawatt plant so that he could study it. He stated several times that what he meant by ship was that it had been sold. But he also stated that the new 1 megawatt plant had shipped as is it had gone somewhere. Maybe from the demo area to his lab.

    Who really cares. Did he or did he not receive money that’s the question.

    This is really nothing new or important. IMHO

  24. Bob D

    January 29, 2012 at 6:18 am

    OK, Basically it is either one of the following two:

    A. Rossi is onto something very, very, big.

    B. The E-cat/Rossi conundrum is an agency run Psy OPs,

    If it is indeed a Psy Ops what are the objectives?

    • Jeb Stondum

      January 29, 2012 at 11:20 pm

      Yeah. Talk about conning the taxpayer.

  25. Mahron - A4 B3

    January 29, 2012 at 8:01 am

    I have now come to the conclusion that Rossi’s course of action is the best, given what happened to all other that waited for other to verify their claims. He will validate himself directly to the consumer. After that everyone can try and figure it out.

    I am really starting to wonder, if this thing isn’t creating antimatter. It would explain why readings are not not in accordance with fusion. But I am no nuclear physician so I could be talking BS.

    Does anyone know what the signature of such a reaction would be ?

    • Pekka Janhunen

      January 29, 2012 at 9:00 am

      Antimatter annihilates to pions which then decay to muons. Lots of high energy gammas are produced from both. No way it can occur behind few cm lead shielding without noticing. Some facts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_rocket#Matter-antimatter_annihilation_rockets

      An important step would be to get to know the isotope composition before and after. Defkalion has promised it in due course.

      • Mahron - A4 B3

        January 29, 2012 at 9:29 am

        Ok. What if it where to occur only lets say once a second. Would it be enough to impact its environment into doing stuff ? Is a gamma ray detector capable of measuring 1 ray a second ?

        • Pekka Janhunen

          January 29, 2012 at 10:13 am

          Possibly yes possibly no, but where would the energy come from then. One proton annihilation per second is only 0.3 nanowatt.

          • georgehants

            January 29, 2012 at 10:29 am

            Pekka, sorry to butt in and well out of my league but is it not true that the energy source of the electrons orbit is unknown.
            If so the energy source of any other phenomenon is unknown.

            One of my students asked me, “Why does the electron move at all?” I admitted I didn’t know and would like to find out for myself and for her. Thanks
            – David DeCarli
            Cromwell High School, CT, USA

          • Mahron - A4 B3

            January 29, 2012 at 10:52 am

            Well I was thinking the annihilation gamma ray could initiate a small fusion bust which would in turn emit the lower energy gamma rays which would then excite the other atoms that would then emit rays used for heating. Like a cascade, 1 annihilation ,10 fusions and 10000 exited electrons.

            Rossi said fusion was just a byproduct, so I guess not much of it is happening, but isn’t even a very small amount of fusion enough to agitate a lot of atoms. As I understand things fusion can only occur in a very violent context to begin with and that is why there is so much skepticism, so antimatter could be the cause as it is the only thing capable of initiating fusion on such a small scale.

            But then again, I’m no expert, not sure what I am saying makes sense.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            January 29, 2012 at 11:38 am

            george: when in its ground state, the electron lies at the nucleus as close as it can, within the limitations posed by quantum mechanics (Heisenberg). So the kinetic energy a ground state electron has is quantum mechanical zero point energy.

            So the (ground state) electron is as immobile as it can possibly be. If the electron would try to settle closer to the nucleus, its position would become more accurately determined which according to Heisenberg would cause the uncertainty about its momentum i.e. its average kinetic energy to increase. Natural atoms represent minima of total energy which is the sum of potential and kinetic energy.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            January 29, 2012 at 11:50 am

            Mahron: OK, I see your point. However once in a second is so low frequency that you probably have cosmic ray gammas and other stuff hitting the reactor at that rate so getting those “seeds” shouldn’t be a problem. The problem is how such gamma or whatever could cause an energy producing fusion event.

            It’s indeed somewhat disturbing that Rossi said in that interview that fusion is only a “byproduct”. Nuclear energy seems to be the only energy source available and fusion seems to be the only way to exploit it (fusion in the sense p+Ni->Cu for example). If the energetically dominant reaction is not fusion then it should be some truly miraculous “free energy” thing (ZPE or whatever). But besides being very hard to believe that would also contradict Rossi’s earlier statements that no new physics is involved. Therefore I would guess that his “fusion is byproduct” statement in the video is just sloppy language. It wouldn’t be the first time.

          • Peter Roe

            January 29, 2012 at 12:04 pm

            I think it’s probable that Rossi is backpedaling on the ‘nuclear’ theories in order to try to make it easier to import/export his units and to get them safety certified.

            The idea that such a massive release of energy can be explained within the standard model is of course nonsense (or someone would have explained it by now, replicated the effect, and made verifiable predictions) but if he can come up with a plausible sounding ‘non nuclear’ theory, that would make life very much easier for him at this stage.

            If this is the case, he has a few minor problems of course, with hydrogen apparently being ‘used up’ and various low level radiations being emitted. Isotope analyses might add a few more.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            January 29, 2012 at 12:43 pm

            Peter “The idea that such a massive release of energy can be explained within the standard model is of course nonsense”: I don’t agree, it’s not nonsense, it’s easier to believe that the explanation lies within the standard model than outside it. While in principle both are possible.

          • Peter Roe

            January 29, 2012 at 12:50 pm

            In an extension or expansion of the standard model perhaps, but not as it currently stands, surely?

            Of course, once the phenomenon is understood then it becomes a part of the ‘updated’ standard model anyway!

          • Mahron - A4 B3

            January 29, 2012 at 1:28 pm

            Pekka : Ok. So basically even a high energy gamma from an antimatter reaction is no were near sufficient to create the conditions for fusion (in the known sense).

          • Pekka Janhunen

            January 29, 2012 at 2:30 pm

            Peter “In an extension or expansion of the standard model perhaps, but not as it currently stands, surely?” I don’t agree, it’s not inconceivable that the standard model as it stands now is able to explain it. In a similar way as the standard model explains superconductivity, it might also explain this one.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            January 29, 2012 at 2:31 pm

            Mahron: yes.

    • Steven Burrows

      January 30, 2012 at 8:14 am

      I’d like to think that, as you say, Rossi’s actions are the best in a given situation, but I can’t. By creating hundreds of internet pages about e-cat he purposely raised e-cat awareness making sure that enthusiasts and “oil man” alike notice his “enterprise”. Now let put ourselves in his shoes. I’d be worried sick if I knew something like that – something that’ll change the world. I’d always have my eyes on my back. There are millions of people who would and will do anything to make sure cheap energy doesn’t see the light of day. The moment i discovered something Rossi claims he discovered i’d go straight to multiple of universities and give them my invention. Sure I’d probably make less money but at least my invention would see the light of day.
      I really hope against hope that e-CAT will work, but somehow, logically I just can’t see that happening. I give Mr. Rossi about 10% chance to succeed.

  26. spacegoat

    January 29, 2012 at 8:01 am

    @Bob D
    Objective – to hold back LENR obviously.
    I just watched “The Great Global Warming Swindle” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzhL0W4mDHU

    It is of great relevance to the LENR/ecat story, demonstrating as it does how, what you refer to as Psy OPs, can create a new religion based on clear lies.

    Do you believe such matters are uncoordinated results of scientists/politicians scrambling for money?, or do you accept the results of this scientific paper:
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.500-revealed–the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world.html
    : 147 companies control the capitalism.

    It is of course natural political power behind those companies is even further concentrated.

    If one questions the intent of that political power, besides making money, one is labeled a conspiracy (redundant word) theorist.

    • Peter Roe

      January 29, 2012 at 11:01 am

      @Spacegoat

      As someone who once believed in ‘AGW’, the thing that most surprises me is that apparently intelligent people with no apparent axe to grind continue to promulgate this nonsense, long after the manipulation of supporting data has been exposed, and the actual data has begun to show another picture entirely. The ‘Great Global Warming Swindle’ was made some time ago, and the case it makes has become stronger year on year since.

      It seems that those who designed this ‘big lie’ did so in order to invent a new justification and method for impoverishing the herd, and in the process enriching themselves through scams like ‘carbon credit trading’. Another level (principally the IPCC but also a number of university departments) exists purely to provide the distorted data and outright lies necessary to prop up the idea, and of course politicians pretend to believe it (or are persuaded by lobbyists) so they can frighten the population and add burdens of taxation that otherwise could never be justified.

      The inexplicable (to me) layer is the number of science correspondents and other media presenters, meteorologists and so on who also continue to spout this bunk. Just a couple of days ago the BBC’s science editor was trotting out the usual fantasies about how ‘global warming’ was going to adversely affect the UK now that it is “was well under way” and how we only had a narrow window of opportunity to prevent disaster.

      It may have been made clear to many of them that their jobs may be at risk if they do otherwise, but they often come over as ‘enthusiasts’ rather than as being coerced. In view of the actual data now available I find this unsettling. As you say, belief in AGW now has many of the characteristics of a religion, with otherwise intelligent people apparently acting from ‘faith’ even when the facts completely fail to support their zeal.

      btw – fascinating link to the New Scientist article. No surprises of course but it is very interesting to see the actual numbers and some names. The more this kind of thing sees the light of day, the more their power can be challenged by mass actions.

      • Timar

        January 29, 2012 at 2:48 pm

        I amazed how otherwise intelligent people believe in such a paranoid drivel, dening the simple and indisputable fact of manmade global warming, which is proven beyond any reasonable doubt for a long time. All this BS about supposedly faked data has been disproven over and over again and it is a waste of time to debate it any more. Those conspiracy theories about the IPCC are made up by lobby groups of Big Oil and their Republican/Liberterian puppets who feel their disgusting economist ideology threatened by scientific knowledge – and you are foolish enough to believe their malicious lies and play their game.

        • JNewman

          January 29, 2012 at 3:28 pm

          Spot on, Timar. People should read “Merchants of Doubt” by Naomi Oreskes and Erik M. Conway to understand where nonsense like climate change denial really comes from.

        • Peter Roe

          January 29, 2012 at 4:05 pm

          I think you are rather proving my point Timar. Obviously ‘Climategate’ passed you by. If you are going to express an opinion, please base it on facts, not propaganda.

          Here is a good place to start: http://junksciencearchive.com/Greenhouse/index.html Or look at later articles on the site.

          Or download this PDF: http://www.friendsofscience.org/assets/documents/GlobalWarmingScam_Gray.pdf

          Or work your way through the links here: http://www.wnho.net/global_warming.htm

          Or just Google ‘climategate’.

          • Timar

            January 29, 2012 at 5:13 pm

            The most significant symptom of paranoia is that every possible dissent is taken as confirmation for the paranoid’s belief.

        • Alain

          January 29, 2012 at 6:39 pm

          where did you get that the validated frauds that climategate have been canceled.
          they show that media, science publications, peer rewiew have been violently forced to follow the dogma.
          whatever is the truth, the climategate show that we cannot know the truth, because only one answer was accepted.

          it is 13 year since temerature did not climbe.
          moreover temperatue have been increasing since 200 years, and the small period of heating can be interpreded in many ways… only one interpretayion is tolerated by the media system, thanks to IPCC and supporting NGO with deep pocket (Greenpeace, WWF, who provide ready to copy reports).

          clearly the GCM model have a very low predictive value.
          AGW theory is base mostly on a “sensibility” that is slowly reduced in the “official” reports, so that the warming is getting more and more mild.

          if I agree that skeptics exagerate the influence of sun, the believers negate those influence with very dishonest arguments. like using the total irradiance instead of estimated cloud-albedo effect like CERN CLOUD show for svenmark effet…

          the dishonesty of the critic is much more meaningful that the data themselves.

          you cannot trust IPCC for any data.
          they forget annoying data, suppress dissent papers, manipulate peer review, accest ridiculous mistakes, accept unproven assumption, copy NGO reports like bible…

          My vision is the one of Judith curry, ex IPCC member, but who make a coming out as agnostic, when she realize she was forced to fraud scientific method to save “THE CAUSE”
          http://judithcurry.com/2012/01/26/questions-on-research-integrity-and-scientific-responsibility-part-ii/

          • GreenWin

            January 30, 2012 at 12:30 am

            Well put Alain. Even for an AGW devotee.

    • Bob D

      January 31, 2012 at 12:21 am

      Spacegoat,

      I am not so sure Rossi is causing any harm to the LENR community, even if he is a charlatan, of which I do not know. What he has done has awoke many a sleeping scientist to the dream of LENR or cold fusion as a viable possibility. Who wouldn’t want to discover such phenomena?

      As for global warming, I suspect it is occurring but I doubt CO2 has a damn thing to do with it.

  27. georgehants

    January 29, 2012 at 9:09 am

    It would be very sensible if all talk of the past re Rossi was abandoned on this site unless it has a direct bearing on new information being released.
    repetitive analysis has no point when it cannot lead to a final answer, only more information will lead to that answer.
    In the case of P&F the final proof is sufficient to continually bring up the past as the evidence is simply being ignore by much of main-line science and a case of incompetence is clear.
    With Rossi and Defkalion the Evidence has been through the court in every detail and any reasonably sensible person must conclude, it is not yet sufficient to fairly judge one way or the other.
    Any posters that repetitively keep putting arguments totally for of against the motion are caught in a time loop that is boring, pointless and rather silly.
    Wait for that new evidence and if one must microscopically analyse it, that is good fun and maybe productive and not inane.

  28. georgehants

    January 29, 2012 at 9:15 am

    Andrea Rossi
    January 28th, 2012 at 10:20 PM

    Dear Bob K,
    Good question. As a matter of fact, we use the Bologna Laboratory only for experiments and tests, not every day but only now and again. When we open the laboratory after some day of closure of the same, in this season it is very cold (between 2 and 5 Celsius degrees). The Laboratory has a surface of 1000 square meters ( about 10000 sq. ft.) and a height of 6 m ( about 18 ft) for a total volume of 6000 cubic meters. To heat a 6000 cubic meters room from 3 Celsius degrees ( the temperature of Bologna on the morning of that day) to a temperature of at least 15 Celsius degrees with a 10 kW heater like the E-Cat takes many hours, so we needed the help of additional heaters. The E-Cats we test 24 hours per day are installed in rooms that are used in continuous, not now and again.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Jack Sparrow

      January 29, 2012 at 10:43 am

      Guess Andrea need to do some math:

      To raise the temperature of 1 litre of air you need 0,15W
      6000 cubic meters eq 6.000.000 liters that needs to be heated by 12 degree
      6000000*0,15*12=10,8 KW
      So without any thermal loss one 10KW Cat should use about one hour for that job…

      • JNewman

        January 29, 2012 at 6:33 pm

        The more interesting question is that if the e-cat can heat the building, why not leave it running indefinitely?

      • Pekka Janhunen

        January 29, 2012 at 6:53 pm

        Jack, there seems to be some confusion, to say that some volume of air needs some power to heat is meaningless, one should say energy. Anyway, heat capacity of air is 1 kJ/(kg K), density of air is about 1 kg/m3, to heat 6000 m3 by 12 deg needs 6000*1000*12=72 MJ. With 10 kW heater would take 2 hours. But factory walls absorb a lot of it so in practice the time is longer.

    • Peter Poulsen

      January 29, 2012 at 1:36 pm

      So he have a E-Cat running as we speak.

      Well if he have time to make small videos then he must also have time to make a video of the E-Cat that is running atm.

  29. georgehants

    January 29, 2012 at 9:53 am

    Just a little off topic Sunday morning reading for anybody interested in the Placebo Effect.
    Science News
    … from universities, journals, and other research organizations
    Mind Over Matter: Patients’ Perceptions of Illness Make a Difference
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120127162753.htm

  30. Tony

    January 29, 2012 at 11:04 am

    Daniele 22passi ha detto…
    @Valeria
    @Daniele
    sia su Vortex che in giro, il tuo annuncio di “bad times are coming”…è sulla bocca di tutti.
    http://ecatnews.com/?p=1950

    Oh santi numi! Ma cosa hanno capito questi?!?!

    @Tizzie
    Per favore, dì al tuo amico di riferire a quelli di Vortex che hanno frainteso in pieno, che non c’è nulla di pruriginoso dietro le mie parole, che non c’entra nulla l’E-Cat, Rossi, UniBO ecc. CHE ERA SOLO UNA BATTUTA RIVOLTA AL PUBBLICO ITALIANO!
    Ma possibile…

    • Tony

      January 29, 2012 at 11:06 am

      Daniel 22passi said …
      @ Valeria
      @ Daniele
      both on Vortex that around, your announcement of “bad times are coming” … is on everyone’s lips.
      http://ecatnews.com/?p=1950

      Oh heavens! But what they understood these?!?!

      @ Tizzie
      Please tell your friend to report to those of Vortex who misunderstood in full, that there is nothing itchy behind my words, that has nothing to do with E-Cat, Rossi, UniBO etc. THAT WAS JUST A JOKE TO THE ITALIAN AUDIENCE!
      But can …

      • Tony

        January 29, 2012 at 11:08 am

        This by microsoft bing translate. Seems to do a better job than google (washes mouth out with soap)

      • Mahron - A4 B3

        January 29, 2012 at 11:09 am

        We will need a proper translator again…

        • Peter Roe

          January 29, 2012 at 11:46 am

          I think we get the message – Passerini is embarrassed by the reaction to his comments and there is nothing for anyone to get upset or worried about.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      January 29, 2012 at 12:07 pm

      Ma cosa hanno capito questi?

      We know “Italian”:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYIjUGOr0HA
      🙂

  31. georgehants

    January 29, 2012 at 11:46 am

    Pekka, thank you and I understand, but am I right that the basic ZPE is unexplainable in theory.
    The uncertainty principle explains the reason for the necessity of energy to keep the electron in orbit but the source of that energy is unexplained in the standard model.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      January 29, 2012 at 12:17 pm

      Quantum mechanics is completely contained in Schrödinger’s equation. From that equation, ZPE and everything else follows mathematically with no other assumptions. However if one asks where Schrödinger’s equation comes from, there is no good answer.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      January 29, 2012 at 12:31 pm

      An orbiting electron is in “motion”, but that motion is frozen in time, its pattern doesn’t change unless something disturbs the atom. In that sense the kinetic energy which is associated with that motion is not of very different nature than potential energy, for instance. One doesn’t need a “source” to explain it, because the energy just “is” and seemingly cannot be utilised.

      • georgehants

        January 29, 2012 at 12:56 pm

        I give up at that point, must just feel that a classical interpretation leads to the electron spiraling into the nucleus, so some thing must be supplying the energy to maintain it’s orbit.
        I unfortunately have a simple mind that is aware that Quantum means a lack of common sense that when followed can lead to any anomaly that cannot be explained and leaves the door open for any other unexplainable phenomena.
        Science if I am not wrong likes to polish over the unexplainable anomalies.

        • LCD

          January 30, 2012 at 7:31 am

          George pekka is right but remind me to expand on his explanation when o have more time.
          Until then google the limit of the Bohr interpretation of the hydrogen atom.

  32. honorsuperhomnia

    January 29, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    Is there a resource where a layperson with a science background can go to learn more about this topic?

    • Mahron - A4 B3

      January 29, 2012 at 2:20 pm

      We need to lure brian cox into this blog.

    • JNewman

      January 29, 2012 at 10:29 pm

      Honorsuperhomnia, be cautious with where you try to get information about LENR. There is a great scarcity of neutral discussion on the subject. The LENR-CANR links represent a vast resource on the subject but go there with the understanding that the stance of Mr. Rothwell is that LENR is completely established and not disputable. This is very much a minority opinion in the science world, as he fully admits. However, his explanation is that LENR has been systematically suppressed by the establishment. Accept that theory cautiously.

      The most neutral place to read something I have seen is the Wikipedia entry on Cold Fusion, sorry to say. Supporters of LENR hate it because it actually doesn’t take sides but merely reports what has happened: people have done work they claim validates the phenomenon while others dispute this work for various reasons. There is a very lengthy discussion related to the disputed neutrality of this article on Wikipedia and it makes for interesting reading itself.

      Good luck on trying to learn about this topic. It is difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff given that most of what is readily available is extremely one-sided. Without passing any judgement about the phenomenon itself, I have to say that people who insist that there is no legitimate dispute about the results and that the truth is being suppressed do not inspire confidence.

      • GreenWin

        January 30, 2012 at 12:25 am

        No Mr. Newman it is not difficult to “separate the wheat from the chaff given that most…is one-sided.” First, Wikipedia is a trustworthy source?? More like a collection of personal opinion with a glaring political agenda. It is a rather pathetic resource for new, alternative science, ideas and R&D.

        Shortly there will be new investigations into the corruption of the proofs of Pons and Fleischmann. Only a blind defender of establishment “science” can miss the gross failure in the aftermath of the F&P announcement. But it WILL all come out in the wash. In part because Rossi/Focardi Mills, Kullander, etc. have shown F&P to be correct. MIT will unfortunately have to answer for their actions. Men like Johnny Huizenga will (if he lives long enough) be shown to be the charlatans they are. Elementary:

        Motive: kill low cost non-central energy.
        Means: control of science establishment.
        Result: protection of energy establishment and funding gravy trains (hot fusion.)

        Hardly rocket science. BTW, you never explained why it is the LLC Associated Press sent a science reporter and photographer to Rossi’s October 28th test, and NEVER wrote a story. Incompetence? Non-profit junket? Corruption?

        “Alternative Science: Challenging the Myths of the Scientific Establishment,” by Richard Milton is yet another expose of the ignominious treatment of cold fusion and its discoverers.

        • JNewman

          January 30, 2012 at 12:49 am

          GreenWin,
          I don’t know why I am bothering to reply to your unprovoked tirade, but I will answer two of your comments:

          No, I don’t think Wikipedia is a trustworthy source. In fact, I specifically pointed out the lengthy companion article on the site disputing the neutrality of the article on cold fusion. What I said was that it was the only place that even makes any attempt to point out that this isn’t a done deal one way or another (which is more than you will do, obviously.)

          Second point: “you have never explained why it is the LLC Associated Press sent a science reporter… blah blah”. Was I supposed to? Do I know about this? Do I care? What does this have to do with anything? My comments to the gentleman with the long name had nothing to do with any political agenda, including yours. I was merely pointing out that finding any evenhanded discussion of this topic on the internet is difficult indeed. And you proved my point admirably.

          • GreenWin

            January 30, 2012 at 2:52 am

            Mr. Newman, apologies, I thought you more conscious of what you apparently write in this blog. Last week we had a dialog about the dearth of real journalists on the subject. I suggested you watch the excellent CBS Sixty Minutes segment on cold fusion “No Longer Junk Science”(2009.) On Jan 21, at 1:48am you wrote:

            My comment was specifically about the e-cat and to my knowledge there has been no journalism of the type I discussed directed toward it.

            To which I reminded you of the LLC AP having paid a science reporter and photographer to fly from New York to Bologna to witness the October 28th ecat demo. Unfortunately, the LLC AP failed to write a story. Failed to publish a single word or photograph, failed to comment or answer inquiries as to their behavior. Why?? Incompetence? Corruption? Are they in on the “Rossi conspiracy” to control mainstream media??

            Ever so perplexing.

        • Bruno

          January 31, 2012 at 6:49 pm

          Maybe the Associated Press never published the article on the 28 October test because the test turned out to be not what was promised. In the weeks leading up to the 28 October test the world was promised that 1) the tests would be conducted by an independent 3rd party representative of the buyer, 2) that we would learn the identity of the “unimpeachable” American company buying the ecat and 3) that the test would be streamed live on CCTV. Instead we got a test conducted entirely by Rossi (or perhaps by the secret “engineer” who nobody can identify) and Rossi’s word that the “sale” was made to the “customer” that chose to remain anonymous at the least minute. I have to admit I was very excited and optimistic about the Rossi ecat BEFORE the test but started becoming very suspicious AFTERWARDS. If I was the editor at AP, I would not have authorized an article. The way the test was run was just too fishy. It would not be difficult for Rossi to arrange a real test at a reputable university. I’m sure that the University of Bologna would do it for free if Rossi just lent them a device.

          • GreenWin

            January 31, 2012 at 11:50 pm

            Um, nice try Bruno. The Associated Press is a “not for profit news cooperative,” whose only obligation is to write the truth. They failed to do so, regardless of test conditions or result. They have used their coop funds to finance a press junket for two employees and given the public zilch, nada, not one word. A little like hot fusion and MIT’s corrupted F&P proofs.

            Had the AP Editor reckoned as did you, excuses not to cover the story – why not tell us? Even Pravda sometimes reported Soviet space failures.

            AP claims to be: “the essential global news network, providing distinctive news services of the highest quality, reliability, and objectivity with reports that are accurate, balanced and informed.”

            The AP junket and failure to explain even it’s failure to publish, discredits the organization for current and future reporting on LENR and Rossi’s role in its development. Another news titan gone ill.

  33. groo

    January 29, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    honorsuperhomnia,

    one of the best is http://lenr-canr.org/

    Then go to http://lenr-canr.org/Introduction.html

    Then, as a first step Jed’s book
    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf

    Jed is probably one of the most comprehensibly informed people in the field.

    For his more current assessment of the situation, lurk at the vortex-l mailing list and look for Jed.

    best regards.

  34. Neil Taylor

    January 30, 2012 at 12:42 am

    Hi George,

    I would be interested to hear yout opinion about this website, its scietific theories and conclusions:

    http://paias.org/

    Thanks,
    NJT