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Domestic eCat Certification Autumn 2012

December 28, 2011

Answering a question on his blog, Andrea Rossi tells us to expect certification (I assume for domestic units) by Autumn 2012. Not long ago he was talking about one to two years and then said they had a breakthrough that should speed things up. Now we have a time-scale we can measure results by. Defkalion hopes to jump that target and at approx 4K Euro per 45kW Hyperion, Rossi will be playing ironic catchup if DGT delivers. The comment is here:

Andrea Rossi
December 28th, 2011 at 9:52 AM
Dear Pietro F.:
The certifications are in course, we will have them made within Autumn 2012.
Warm Regards,

Posted by on December 28, 2011. Filed under products,Roll-Out,Rossi,Uncategorized. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

42 Responses to Domestic eCat Certification Autumn 2012

  1. Pinoccio

    December 28, 2011 at 5:11 pm

    everything is false, a Christmas story,….

  2. georgehants

    December 28, 2011 at 5:18 pm

    From Facebook
    Re: [Vo]:Amoco (Oil Company) replication of cold fusion experiment in 1994.
    David ledin
    Wed, 28 Dec 2011 02:27:51 -0800
    quote from Amoco document
    This report will discuss briefly some of the early calorimetric
    experiments on cold fusion and in more detail, a single experiment
    just concluded.A closed cell electrolytic experiment has been
    conducted using a palladium cathode and platinum anode with accurate
    (+/-0.001 watt) calorimetric measurements. Results indicate a positive
    energy output of approximately 50 Kilojoules more than was input to
    the experiment through electrolysis current and heater current. The
    heat output was observed both as short term bursts of energy and as
    long term sustained production. Colorimetric calibration with an
    internal heat source showed essentially identical data before and
    after the electrolysis experiment.
    Material balance for palladium, water and lithium showed essentially
    no material had been consumed during the experiment. Tritium levels
    measured before and after electrolysis showed a factor of 3 increase
    that cannot be accounted for by concentration effects. It is important
    to note that if this experiment had been terminated after only one
    month the results would have shown no positive energy production.
    These data support the claims of several experimenters that anomalous
    heat and tritium are produced during electrolytic experiments using a
    hydrogen absorbing cathode. Further experiments are in progress to
    determine reproducibility and better define experimental parameters.…thwellEdit.pdf
    On 12/28/11, David ledin wrote:
    > Amoco (Oil Company) replication of cold fusion experiment in 1994.
    [Vo]:Amoco (Oil Company) replication of cold fusion experiment in 1994. David ledin

  3. Roger Bird

    December 28, 2011 at 5:56 pm

    Although I believe that LENR is real, Rossi can say anything that he wants. This does not prove or disprove anything and should not be taken as anything other than air at 98.6 degrees F, or 37 degrees C if you like, sort of the temperature of warm air. It should not inflate or deflate any hope whatsoever.

    • jjjioman

      December 29, 2011 at 2:54 pm

      Good! I hope everyone reads your post.

  4. Dale G. Basgall

    December 28, 2011 at 6:31 pm

    There will be several reproductions of the process after the first of the year, the investors like to get new money in at the first of the year it seems.

    There will be someone out there in the U.S. hopefully interested enough to go forward and reproduce the process.

  5. Al Potenza

    December 28, 2011 at 6:59 pm

    Talking about government certifications, didn’t Defkalion say, last June, that the Greek authorities would certify their Hyperion by the fourth quarter of this year?

    They only have three days left if that is to happen. And they’re very quiet about it lately on their forum. I wonder what happened.

  6. kwhilborn

    December 28, 2011 at 7:55 pm

    If he had something that was stable he would demonstrate it as stable. Not a single demonstration has shown it to be stable.
    Stability is what Defkalion says was the cause of the 15 million dollar feud between them. They calimed Rossi could not run for 48 hours straight.

    Many think that if he could pass this stability barrier he would present it for 48 hours if only to prove Defkalion is wrong and that he really has something.

    I think the first party to demonstrate a stable device will have the most legal standing. Andrea Rossi has something, but it needs fixing.

    • Roger Bird

      December 28, 2011 at 11:24 pm

      I could not agree more.

  7. arian

    December 28, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    1 – What maximum temperature do you have?
    2 – At what type of motor you are oriented, gas or steam?
    3 – Which performance did you manage to get so far?

    Andrea Rossi
    December 28th, 2011 at 12:52 PM

    Caro Rampado Dr Roberto:
    La Sua prenotazione era stata accettata.
    1- 400 Celsius
    2. vapore
    3- 25%
    Cari saluti,

  8. daniel maris

    December 28, 2011 at 8:50 pm

    Whilst I have nothing against healthy scepticism, isn’t it equally odd that the relevant authorities don’t come out and query some of these statements if it is all lies and fantasies?

    It’s difficult to know what to believe. Rossi’s statement about certification in Autumn 2012 hardly fits in with selling a million this year.

    It does appear as if stability is a real issue – one he has possiby resolved with the help of National Instruments.

  9. Tom Baccei

    December 28, 2011 at 9:06 pm

    Sometimes this all reminds me of a sign at a fine little establishment in Oregon: “Free Beer! – Tomorrow Only” Sigh.

    • daniel maris

      December 28, 2011 at 11:04 pm

      Except NASA and Amoco have both confirmed that free beer does indeed exist…

      • Josh

        December 29, 2011 at 1:14 am

        Many appear to have demonstrated that free tastes exist… Rossi claims to offer the entire keg.

        If Amoco thought there was any hope of useful Cold Fusion-type energy, and they walked away, they are incredibly short-sighted. Despite their “oil roots”, I cannot fathom why they would walk away from the utter domination and massive wealth that would have accompanied turning cold fusion into something viable. If energy companies are anywhere near as greedy as most people accuse, they would have taken it as far as they thought possible. Right?

        • daniel maris

          December 29, 2011 at 2:50 am


          Well I think you have to realise how much the oil industry has tied up in oil.

          Some of these companies may have 100s of billions of investment tied up in oil – land purchases, drilling equipment, distribution networks – investment built up over several decades.

          If cold fusion was successful it might render all that investment essentially useless. But to develop cold fusion might cost further tens of billions of dollars. If the oil industry realise there could be many forms of cold fusion – meaning that the technology is effectively not capable of being patented – they woudl realise they could be up against strong competition which would reduce profits.

          The oil industry might have concluded that it was in their interest not to develop the technology but to rubbish it and ensure no government funds went into it.

          • John

            December 30, 2011 at 10:14 am

            Yes, all true, and there is another big problem with these LENR systems – they are small, essentially decentralized/distributed, off grid and just un”manageable” by entrenched powers that be.
            These guys in all sectors of the energy business would basically become mostly obsolete. They will fight that tooth and claw, and have been doing it at least for twenty years – though a lot of people would say since Tesla.
            There’s a lot of big changes coming in 2012 – grasping the implications of the fact that LNER is Real will be one of them I think.
            They will make it illegal, they will have too, and people will fight, They will have to – imagine a cold apartment block because oil is $200 a barrel and Rossi’s heat/power machine is banned.

  10. Vic

    December 29, 2011 at 12:01 am

    After 24 years of stalling, the US EPA has finally issued its new rules for “Mercury and Air Toxics” pollution. The new rules force all coal fired power plants to install “maximum available control technology”. It is expected to kick off a huge wave of coal plant retirements.

    Perhaps it’s only coincidental that this is now taking place against the backdrop of Rossi and his e-cat. Obama’s recent shelving of the Keystone XL pipeline is probably only a coincidence as well.         

  11. spacegoat

    December 29, 2011 at 5:13 am

    Josh said: “I cannot fathom why they would walk away from the utter domination and massive wealth that would have accompanied turning cold fusion into something viable.”

    Try this:

    147 companies control 80% of world commerce:–the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world.html

    A world oligarchy controls those companies. Their interest is more political/strategic than increasing their already astronomical wealth.

    I know this is a LENR forum not a fission forum but LENR development may get derailed in 2012 by cynical global politics.

    The Iranians are developing uranium based fission during a time when their allies the Chinese are developing Thorium ( safe and no nukes possible) fision reactors!

    Bill Gates in Talks with China to Build Reactor
    8 December, 2011
    He also said that as much as one billion dollar will be invested into R&D of the reactor in the following five years.

    China Takes Lead in Race for Clean Nuclear Power

    The oligarchy are not interested in peaceful and progressive development, not LENR based, nor anything else. It is urgent to get out the LENR message far and wide in 2012. Credit all around to this forum.

  12. georgehants

    December 29, 2011 at 9:05 am

    The rich and powerful will know all about Cold Fusion and the total blackout is giving them time to counteract the threat to their own Superior way of life.
    They like science will be frantically manipulating behind the scenes to protect their wealth and positions no matter what happens.
    As it is obvious that World production of needs and luxury’s can easily outstrip demand there is no reason that everything is not free.
    Remove all money and half the workforce is out of a job, everybody could retire at 45 all the present unemployed youth take over the jobs of older workers.
    Capitalism is just maintained so that the people are controlled worrying about work and paying bills while they stay in their elevated positions.

    I would need to write a book to cover all the simple ways this could be achieved.
    The problem again is that most people just blindly follow what they are told without Thinking about it.

    • Guru

      December 29, 2011 at 9:39 am

      Dear George,

      your proponed economic system “without money” was tested and was not functional, more precisely this was total disaster: everybody wanted to become (beach) lifeguard or artist, no one want be uranium miner.

      You need another 6-7 planets for suficient amount of iron and other raw materials to achieve your dream of: “production of needs and luxury’s can easily outstrip demand”.

      I lived 24 years in so called “communist regime country” (in reality “real socialism”). Your economic order is not functional. If you fanatically believe in thís, you must established a commune and invented rules for this commune and try to proof your commune is viable.

      • georgehants

        December 29, 2011 at 10:03 am

        Guru, you are wrong, a very large subject, please make a particular point that you wish to discuss, usually the biggest are the first.
        Are you saying the present system cannot be improved.

        • Renzo

          December 29, 2011 at 10:34 am

          georgehants, we don’t live in a capitalism system. True free market has costantly been shrinking in the last 100 years. The present system is crony capitalism with central planned monetary policies. If you want to help people stop dreaming of forcing your ideas on others, if your scenario is realistic it will happen naturally in time if people are let free. And cold fusion will surely help! Let’s start with abolishing central banking and curbing the power of the States to a minimum. The rest will come

          • georgehants

            December 29, 2011 at 10:39 am

            Renzo,why are you trying to force your view on others.
            I think your view like mine is legitimate, why are you afraid of open debate.

          • Renzo

            December 29, 2011 at 11:01 am

            I’m not afraid of open debate. I have often read your comments about money and capitalism and I don’t understand if your’s a dream of a voluntary cooperative society or if you like socialism. The latter to me is a nightmare. Regarding money in the present time I find your scenario implausible, the division of labor is necessary to produce enough goods for all people. And so you need some medium of exchange for all the greater number of goods you can’t produce yourself. Money is no evil, it is only a useful tool that people use to exchange good and services. Of course in a century from now with advanced cold fusion technology it is possibile that people will be able to self produce most of their needs. But even in such a scenario people will still need some medium of exchange as long as there are goods they cannot produce. Perhaps it will be something different from money as we know it but still you need some medium of exchange when bartering isn’t enough. Don’t you agree?

        • Guru

          December 29, 2011 at 11:17 am

          “Are you saying the present system cannot be improved.”
          No, I not wrote this.

          Because I firstly was few years a technician and after that 25 years a econom, I need to know: I am discussing with somebody who is 19 year old anarchist or some who lived 40 years in communist regime or somebody who lived in constantly subvented KIBBUTZ community ?

          Your dream are reality in some 800 KIBBUTZ. However it is greatly distorted and false reality, because Kibbutzes are greatly and constantly subsidized and they have no real price/costs calculations: i.e. stolen land and stolen water, subsidized roads built on stolen land etc. etc.
          If You love your “no money” communist dream, I recommended to you few years spent in Kibbutz commune and doing background invisiblee accounts work (for visibility of subsidies).

          You want particular to discussion, yeah there is: No Money system never and nowhere work, even in prison camps it is in natural circulation cigarettes and chocolate from Red Cross packs as “local money”.

          Every modern human community collapsed when trying “no money” system.

          Have you example where it is functional or You have Advanced No Money system ?

          If Yes, disclose this please.

          • georgehants

            December 29, 2011 at 11:36 am

            Guru, If you think the present system can be improved why are you just giving negatives, you surly are as capable as anybody of giving positive idea’s.
            I think I said that if all needed and fair luxuries are free then there is no money.
            Renzo sensibly pointed out that a points system would be necessary to somehow reward people who do more than their fair share for society, but only for society and not themselves.
            Please keep your replies to small areas as in a new system where everything effects everything else it is impossible to answer every point at once.

          • Renzo

            December 29, 2011 at 12:55 pm

            georgehants, I want to clarify that I don’t think that people should be rewarded with some kind of money (call it points system, shells or apple pies, as long as it makes the funcion of money it is nothing but money) not born out of voluntary interactions. Rewarded by whom? And who determines the value of everything? Some central planners? If people will choose to form voluntary communities without any kind of impersonal medium of exchange I’m fine with that, but I agree with Guru I don’t believe it will work well. As long as there a scarce resources people will need something to determine their value and exchange them for. Yes I can “imagine” a future in which advanced cold fusion, advanced hydroponics, robots and nano 3d printing tech make all the resources plentiful for everyone then maybe people will simply gift and barter. But such a scenario in my opinion is still very far in a distant future. The positive changes I expect from CF in the next hundred years are relative to pollution, cost of living, end of wars, end of famines, end of the States, decentralization, liberty and return to free markets. For the time being that’s plenty for me 🙂

  13. Brad Arnold

    December 29, 2011 at 10:04 am

    It is hard for even me to believe that soon Leonardo and Defkalion both will be manufacturing and selling thousands of LENR generators.

    When there is proof positive that LENR is successfully commercialized, watch things really take off. I talk with the most mature and technically sophisticated people who are in complete denial – there are no ground rules on how you handle a paradigm shift and some people have a really difficult time anticipating it (when ironically they swallow the most unlikely religioius narrative and call it faith).

    • georgehants

      December 29, 2011 at 10:11 am

      Brad Arnold, faith is a very powerful part of the human makeup, if one is silly enough to believe in Darwinian Evolution wholesale then it has a very important evolutionary purpose or would not have survived.
      While science hides in the illusion of material reality and cannot even except the Quantum, things will stay confusing and understanding stay out of reach.

      • Dale G. Basgall

        December 29, 2011 at 2:12 pm

        George you wrote;” faith is a very powerful part of the human makeup” and is true for sure, however hope seems to be the motivaional emotion that get’s people together and things in motion.

        For example; if your confined in a wheelchair your entire life and have faith you will walk someday, that’s a personal belief from some type of evidence making it believable that’s possible.

        Hope on the other hand makes everything possible and creates the motivaion for movement.

        So I don’t have faith that Rossi or Defkalion will ever tell us true fact, and I also have no faith that either Rossi or Defkalion will produce the first LENR product, but I do have “hope” that someday both parties will see the importance of just opening up to truth, and that motivates me to go forward, and hope that the technology keeps living and researched to completion.

        In fact I have hope someone will make this process they claim as cold fusion work for everyone.

        • georgehants

          December 29, 2011 at 5:47 pm

          Dale, I agree but I was reacting to the put down of a belief in a Creator by Brad, their faith gives them strength and it surely is unfair, to with no possible reason try to damage that faith, only direct it away from religious manipulation and dogma.
          Faith is scientifically being investigated and the results so far show that prayer is a powerful force, but difficult, like all non-physical phenomenon to study.

          No scientist would ignore or debunk the below results, but say “WOW” lets do a lot more open-minded unbiased research to find the Truth.

          New Prayer Study
          The newest prayer study is a meta-analysis that takes into account the entire body of empirical research on intercessory prayer (17 major studies). The new study showed that according to American Psychological Association Division 12 criteria, intercessory prayer is classified as an experimental intervention that, overall, shows a small, but significant, positive effect.1
          Rich Deem

  14. georgehants

    December 29, 2011 at 11:09 am

    Renzo, you are confirming everything I am saying also putting in good ideas of how the change could proceed, why are you then taking a confrontational attitude.
    If as you say you do not understand my view why not ask a question to clarify.
    It appears that I am saying we are in charge of our own destinies and should attempt to change wrongs Now and you are saying, do nothing and let things look after themselves.
    I will respect your view and continue to hold mine.

  15. Pekka Janhunen

    December 29, 2011 at 11:26 am

    Someone side-remarked “You need another 6-7 planets for sufficient amount of iron and other raw materials to achieve your dream of: production of needs and luxury’s can easily outstrip demand.”

    But cold fusion can make the raw material problems largely go away. Instead of mining iron and other metals, we could use ordinary local gravel and stones. For example, after removing oxygen, average granite has the following composition by weight:

    Si 65.18%
    Al 14.8%
    K,Na,Ca 14.46%
    Fe 4.21%
    Mg,Ti,P,Mn 1.35%

    For example one could make composites of aluminium (possibly alloyed with the other metals) and silicon to obtain tough structural materials. The idea should be that when one “kills” a stone, one uses it all without abandoning anything, like nomads do when they kill their animal. Seawater could also be an additional source of elements as a byproduct of CF powered desalination.

    • Peter Roe

      December 29, 2011 at 1:12 pm

      I agree – I don’t think physical resources are likely to be a problem if CF ever becomes a widespread reality. Most of the goods we consume are made of plastics, but oil feedstock should become pretty freely available and in any case plastics can be made from agricultural waste.

      Metals such as iron and aluminium, and other heavily used elements such as silicon are incredibly abundant and highly recyclable in the case of bulk metals, and even copper should be in good supply if the world is powered by Ni-H fusors! Most of our remaining needs will be met by agriculture – specifically hydroponics installations in almost any environment, powered by CF energy.

      The bottleneck is likely to be rarer materials such as ‘rare earths’, gold, platinum, exotic gases etc, increasingly used in high-tech gadgetry, but given unlimited energy these could be extracted from seawater in the necessary quantities, using genetically modified algae grown under CF powered lights (which would incidentally produce vast tonnages of useful biomass).

  16. Harry Perini

    December 29, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    Is Andrea Rossi being secretive because LENR is not patentable? I believe natural processes cannot be patented. Fire cannot be patented but certain cigarette lighters can.
    Maybe Rossi must keep his catalyst a trade secret.

  17. georgehants

    December 29, 2011 at 1:44 pm

    Renzo, once again you seem to be agreeing with everything said and then being negative about it.
    Why not come up with some of your own positive suggestions to change things now for the benefit of the World and our children.

  18. Dale G. Basgall

    December 29, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    Reply to Harry, regarding statement;”Maybe Rossi must keep his catalyst a trade secret.” Harry it seems the well kept secret is most likely still a secret to Mr. Rossi also.

    He pulled a bluff on us and it backfired on him. He broke out the news and claimed a secret catalyst which he thought it would buy him enough time to figure more out with others input and possibly make the process work as he anticipated.

    A year later it’s still a secret, even to him. I am not contending he has not observed the exothermic reaction but it was not reduced down to a marketable and reliable (stable) method.

    What he created is a free for all technology that only after introducing a specific product using the technology in a useful way for others is offered for sale and the service techs are trained and licences are signed to distribute then I would consider a trade secret something that actually worked. Until then he has no more than you or I.

  19. jjjioman

    December 29, 2011 at 2:56 pm

    rossi is either the worlds greediest man, or another mylow, a faker. LENR is real, but it has the instability issue, i.e., the excess heat can take up to months to come into effect. Don’t let the fakes destroy good and honest research.

  20. Pekka Janhunen

    December 29, 2011 at 3:47 pm

    Some people here have the opinion that cold fusion is true, but that Rossi would be more or less faking. While possible, I don’t find it very logical to think so. The topic has some resemblance with discussions concerning life in the universe. There, rather many people (including many of my fellow scientists) hold that microbial life could be relatively common, but that technological civilisations should nevertheless be rare. However, I don’t think that Earth history supports that view: the evolution from bacteria to man is rather well known, the evolutionary pressure needed in each step is sort of understood. I think that if life exists elsewhere in the universe, probably some of it has also developed technology.

    Similarly, if the cold fusion phenomenon exists, there appears to be no natural law that would deny its development into a commercially useful power source. It is more likely that such a block exists only in our minds, as an instinctive cautionary suspicion against getting something too easily or for free. But for a physicist trying to explain it, a nanowatt of cold fusion power is equally mysterious than a megawatt. Thus, until proven wrong I find it logical to largely believe what gentleman Rossi has to say because usually people are telling the truth.

  21. Tomas Douting

    December 30, 2011 at 6:01 am

    Unfortunately, even in a world of very low-cost energy, there will be no lack of those who are non-motivated, and who will not cooperate with the view of equality in the utopian world. The burden to provide for the lazy may be much less on the motivated remainder than our burden is now, but that element of the population will be a burden.

    The “wealth” gradient *can* improve significantly, and mankind will doubtlessly benefit from that leveling, but the motivation of wanting to better ones place in life will still drive those who seek that – and the ones who wish to take what falls their way will embrace that path. Thus is the nature of mankind.

    And so there is indeed a reason that some will maintain a system of trade, and an underlying mechanism of exchange whether it looks like a monetary system or something else (such as perhaps nickel powder?). All there to measure the difference between those who strive and those with no aspiration. Anything less will frustrate those who are driven to better themselves – and a system will arise naturally.

    Without that measure there is no impetus to invent, to improve, nor to do any work that would provide any of the needed and fair luxuries that we will all enjoy. Those who work freely do so in order to selfishly improve or maintain their lot – not because they want to do the work for others.

    @Pekka There may be no natural law, but politics can be one of those immutable obstacles enabled only in our minds that you refer to. It would be my hope that the politicians will have less power but they may resist.

    • spacegoat

      December 30, 2011 at 3:43 pm

      Tomas Douting said: “Those who work freely do so in order to selfishly improve or maintain their lot – not because they want to do the work for others.”

      But not in a world of energy and material abundance. There, only the talented will be allowed the opportunity for “work” = research and art. Let the “idle” fritter their lives away in “leisure”. I know I will be one of those seeking “work”.

  22. Chuck Wolcott

    December 31, 2011 at 6:25 pm

    Andrea Rossi, After certification, I would be interested in purchasing domestic unit #50O. It needs to be 100kw since we are heating with a geothermal water-furnace.

    • Chuck Wolcott

      January 2, 2012 at 12:12 am

      Andrea, I believe I made a mistake. I need a unit capable of 9,000 to 10,000 watts at 235Volts 60cps and it would be unit # 500. Thanks for your understanding