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Defkalion Site Down – Here Are The Hyperion Specs

November 30, 2011

DGT’s site is down. Gremlins, an attack or a flood of interest, I expect. The following is a compilation of some notes followed by a copy of the PDF in case the site is down for a while:

[ETA – It’s back]

Gamma isolation 3mm

Kernel body (smallest of 2 devices) – 12x12x12cm

Atomic Hydrogen generator

Resistive preheating – 6 seconds

Chemically assisted preheating – media undisclosed

Embedded within reactor structure

Particle size – 3-7 microns

Powder prep method –  proprietary

Catalysts involved in reaction – proprietary

Normal H pressure <50 bar

Safety valve 150 bar?

Ecomass 3mm Polyether Block Amide (unlike Pb, non toxic) – 3mm!!! Typo to go with Pleasure Sensor?

Synthetic thermal oil – (alkyl aromatic)

Performance data and alarms to DGT by GSM (phone)

GPS!!?

Self destruct – chemical and non-hazardous

Inner compartment with reactor and coolant interface –  argon environment

Two main sizes:

5-11kW and 10-45kW

Operating temp depends on system (four variants) 185, 285, 414 deg C

Ext 55x45x42cm

19kg and 47kg

Larger unit may go up to 34 months without powder change (but still need Hydrogen?)

Max elec input <200w and <310W

COP 1:25 min and 1:32 min

Certification Pending

Serviced in-situ

Any attempt to violate such handling procedures may cause product’s self-destruct with no hazardous or dangerous effects to the environment

Here is a copy, independent of the DGT site:

HyperionSpecsSheetNovember2011

In the eCatNews comments section, Casey said he asked the following on DGT’s forum before it went down:

“I’ve read too much drama in the past regarding steam and calibration as far as Rossi’s e-cat goes. Could you allow gamma ray measurement tests that once and for all prove that a CF/LENR event is really taking place?”

And got an immediate YES from Defkalion GT

 

Posted by on November 30, 2011. Filed under Defkalion,Hyperion,products. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

123 Responses to Defkalion Site Down – Here Are The Hyperion Specs

  1. Nathan Hulse

    November 30, 2011 at 4:01 pm

    “DGT’s site is down. Gremlins, an attack or a flood of interest, I expect.”

    Maybe they’ve just gone fishing.

    • jjjioman

      December 1, 2011 at 3:03 pm

      It’s obvious rossi is not going to allow academic to see what’s inside the chamber. Defkalion says they’ll allow scientists to verify the gamma rays, yet after all this time Defkalion hasn’t even tried to prove this to the academic science community or the world.

      Most people are probably unaware that the free energy community gets a big fake about once a year. Looks like this is just another fake to keep academic scientists far away from legit LENR / cold fusion research. And you people sit around supporting these ill acts.

  2. Francesco CH

    November 30, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    Casey forgets to ask WHEN these measurements will take place.

    • Nathan Hulse

      November 30, 2011 at 8:20 pm

      Requesting the date of a public statement that includes test dates would have been even more pertinent…

      Theres a fine margin between maverick, madman and con man. In this sense, it is easier to envisage that Rossi is genuine. His professional background is in the public domain and there are multiple ways of reading it. But these guys? Defkalion is an opaque entity. A statement from the University of Siena would make for a less turbid atmosphere, but I guess it is very unlikely that one will be forthcoming.

      • CM Edwards

        November 30, 2011 at 9:00 pm

        One can certainly see Lewan sat on it all these months. It arguably amounts to implicating the university in industrial espionage. Not the kind of thing you do based on one statement from one guy – until Defkalion starts backing him up.

        Then it goes from slander to news.

        • Nathan Hulse

          November 30, 2011 at 9:47 pm

          Lewan could have waited to see if the Defkalion statement included anything substantial, before starting rumours that undermine Rossi’s bargaining position whilst achieving little otherwise. It was poor judgement on Lewan’s part, given that he had already sat on it for 3 months. It is certainly within the realms of possibility that Defkalion played him for a fool.

          • Stephen

            December 1, 2011 at 12:15 am

            how many shares do you think he got, if any?

    • CM Edwards

      November 30, 2011 at 8:52 pm

      If they have a working cold fusion reactor as claimed, it could be as soon as they receive their detector and get it interfaced. Who knows when, but they would only be waiting on the instrumentation, not the reactor.

      This would be another opportunity for DGT to score a goal before Rossi.

  3. georgehants

    November 30, 2011 at 4:13 pm

    Well, only we hoped that Defkalion would prove the E-CAT, they never said they would, so only we are at fault.
    They will agree to all tests etc. if everything is taken at face value it looks good for the World.
    Much more interest with two sources of possibility but my champagne is back in the box and I am enjoying some more red wine.

    • raul heining

      November 30, 2011 at 6:45 pm

      like red wine
      regards
      raul

      • CM Edwards

        November 30, 2011 at 8:40 pm

        “like red wine”

        This sentence has an understood subject. Is it “I” or “you”?

        Hmm…

  4. georgehants

    November 30, 2011 at 4:17 pm

    For Soo

    Minister tries to defend UK secret tar sands help for Canada
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/damian-carrington-blog/2011/nov/30/oil-sands-tar-canada-uk-fuel

    • Peter Roe

      November 30, 2011 at 5:15 pm

      Light blue touchpaper and retire to a safe distance!

      Slimy turncoat. We have to get rid of these corrupt morons asap.

    • Sojourner Soo

      November 30, 2011 at 7:26 pm

      Yes, I saw that a few days ago and alerted my page members. Thanks, george. Our energy minister, Joe Oliver, has now deleted a friends E-Cat related posts from his FB page on EIGHT different occasions. In Canada, there is a real effort to NOT print any E-Cat related news. It’s a sad indictment of my country’s government and media. They really depended on the tarsands to the exclusion of everything else. All our eggs in one basket, and that basket is now useless. Politicians can be very stupid at times. They will resist LENR technology, until they are forced kicking and screaming into the new energy age.

      • georgehants

        November 30, 2011 at 8:02 pm

        Soo, nothing will stop it unless Rossi, Defkalion or another show the benefits that can be gained from Cold Fusion.
        Science is doing nothing to promote it for their own selfish reasons and deserves the contempt of everybody.
        Most here are wishing for success from one of them, hopefully sooner than later, but at least now there is a chance that these things can be stopped.

        • Sojourner Soo

          November 30, 2011 at 8:57 pm

          And what’s worse, a group of US Republican Senators introduced legislation today that attempts to force Obama to approve the KXL pipeline within 60 days, unless “the President determines that the Keystone XL pipeline would not serve the national interest.”

          The Canadian tundra is melting and releasing tons of methane, oil companies are drilling in the Arctic, the Canadian government plans to build another pipeline across the bloody Rocky Mountains (which is insane, when you think about it), and climate change is … well, it’s a bloody disaster. Politicians, fossil fuels, and crony capitalism are the bane of all our lives.
          Here is a link to the legislation: http://lugar.senate.gov/energy/pipeline/legislation.pdf

          • Josh

            November 30, 2011 at 10:24 pm

            And someone claims to have our energy salvation… and he’s building 1MW reactors, apparently 1 at a time (when he’s not blogging), and is only concerned about protecting his secret for monetary reasons. Yet you defend Rossi?

            If he has what he claims, the only way he risks not get rich is by… well, doing exactly what he’s doing, and letting someone else steal the show. If he has it, it’s possible, and he can’t know for sure that others don’t have it (or soon will).

    • TomAndersen

      November 30, 2011 at 8:05 pm

      Just be glad the tar sands are not in Russia or China. Likely 10x more pollution.

  5. georgehants

    November 30, 2011 at 4:36 pm

    Reply from Defkalion.

    Most of third party tests will be broad casted (via Internet life stream) with the acceptance of the testers. We have been prepared and equipped to do so already
    Thank you for your advise

  6. georgehants

    November 30, 2011 at 4:38 pm

    From Defkalion

    We have already appologized for the typo.
    Obviously it is pressure and not pleasure
    English is not our native languadge and it is quite easy such typos not be observed by all eyes that cheked this document
    So please be so kind not pressuring on this any more just for pleasure. We will fix type tomorrow (after the Cabaret…)

    Have a nice evening too.

    • Francesco CH

      November 30, 2011 at 4:54 pm

      This is a pity, I was thinking to buy it because of the “Pleasure Sensor”

    • Nathan Hulse

      November 30, 2011 at 8:28 pm

      There is no going back now, keep applying pressure to the pleasure sensor until it becomes too excruciating!

  7. georgehants

    November 30, 2011 at 4:42 pm

    Could you please make a statement regarding the high number of security features expected to be included in the final product? (GPS tracking, GSM, multilayered anti-tampering systems, etc) ?

    These features are mainly realated with safety and functionality as well after sales support automated procedures. No info on security has been released in Hyperion specs

    Thank you

    • Jay

      December 1, 2011 at 3:07 am

      My tin foil hat may be getting the better of me but the GPS/GSM will be used so that Defkalion can remotely shut down your Hyperion if you try to operate it in a country where it may be illegal (such as the United States).

      In any case the GSM requirement for operation makes the unit less competitive or uncompetitve with other heat sources.

      • Peter Roe

        December 1, 2011 at 8:51 am

        Also in tinfoil hat territory, it will allow governments to keep track of every operating unit so it would be possible to tax their use on a measured output basis – the obvious way to make up lost fossil fuel revenues. The excuse for imposing such a tax would most likely be to pay for the transition to non-fossil power generation (but like income tax it would somehow not be removed after the notional transition period.

  8. 123star

    November 30, 2011 at 4:46 pm

    I don’t understand why they put “energy consumption” in Wh for the various components. Shouldn’t it be “power consumption” in Watts (W)? In other words, the device should be able to run indefinitely, why Wh instead of W?
    3 mm of plastic for shielding gamma rays seems ridiculous. For example to halve radiation in a fallout shelter, 0.4 inches of lead are needed (of course we don’t know the real spectrum of the gammas in this case, but 3mm of plastic sounds ridiculous anyway).
    see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_protection#Shielding_design

    • 123star

      November 30, 2011 at 4:59 pm

      Ok, they mean Wh/h, i.e. Watts.
      at p.18 they say:
      Maximum electric energy consumption per hour at ON mode:…… <200 Wh <310Wh

    • Tom Andersen

      November 30, 2011 at 5:16 pm

      3mm of lead has a reduction factor of 33 million for 100kev gamma rays, and only a factor of 22 for 200kev gammas. Normal hot fusion makes gammas of over 1000kev -these would all sail through. So as a conclusion I would say that the gammas are very low energy 100kev or lower, which makes them basically x rays.

      Tom

      • 123star

        November 30, 2011 at 6:16 pm

        Ok, thank you, I didn’t know of this sharp increase of thickness for soft gammas. So this will exclude beta+ decays (which lead to 511 keV photons)?

        • TomAndersen

          November 30, 2011 at 8:16 pm

          Definitely, it takes at least an inch of lead to do anything to beta decays.
          Since these are low energy gammas or X Rays, they likely would get quite a bit of blocking in the nickel powder and stainless container, etc, so the lead would be a an extra layer of precaution.

          Look at the last chart – the one with 100 key gammas having a half block thickness of 0.012 cm – 0.12 mm so in 3mm of lead, the gammas will be halved in intensity 25 times, 2 to the power 25 is 2 ** (3 / .12) = 33 554 432 blocking factor of 33 million.
          http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Basic_Physics_of_Nuclear_Medicine/Attenuation_of_Gamma-Rays

          • 123star

            November 30, 2011 at 10:24 pm

            Thank you for the insight!
            So, starting from natural nickel (istotopes 58Ni 60Ni 61Ni 62Ni 64Ni) what do we have?
            If we say proton + Nickel we get (59Cu(beta+) 61Cu(beta+) 62Cu(beta+) 63Cu(stable) 65Cu(stable)). All of these which decay beta+ are excluded.
            If we say neutron+Nickel we get (59Ni(beta+) 61Ni (stable) 62Ni(stable) 63Ni, 65 Ni.)
            63Ni decays beta- with long half life (100 years) to Cu63 (stable) Q value=67 KeV
            65 Ni decays beta- with half life 151 minutes to Cu65 (stable) Q value=2 Mev
            Any ideas? Which decay chain is possible and has no hard radiation?
            (i used http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=nickel+63)

          • 123star

            November 30, 2011 at 11:17 pm

            Forgot to say, the energy of all gammas (=Q values) are in the MeV range (e.g. p+62Ni->63Cu+gamma, p+64Ni->65Cu+gamma, n+60Ni->61Ni+gamma, n+61Ni->62Ni+gamma, n+62Ni->63Ni+gamma, n+64Ni->65Ni+gamma).
            Please correct me if I am mistaken.

          • LCD

            December 1, 2011 at 1:01 am

            You just discovered the main reason why people don’t believe Rossi. So of you believe Rossi and defkalion then you believe that there is another nuclear reaction branch that is not yet understood. The speculation is its main exothermic path is high energy or high intensity phonons. phonons which of course have never been observed to do anything like that.

          • 123star

            December 1, 2011 at 10:28 am

            Yes, I knew about this reason before, I just verified that there are no known “soft channels” ;P

          • Tom Andersen

            December 1, 2011 at 11:50 pm

            The theory that I like best is that in LENR the proton does not smash into the nucleus like it does in hot fusion, but rather just tops over the coulomb barrier gently, then essentially orbiting the nucleus in a decaying way, dropping many energy levels, emitting hundreds of x rays instead of one gamma.
            Think of hot fusion as ballistic fusion – you shoot the proton at the nucleus, with explosive results emitting neutrons. LENR is a slower way of getting the same energy.

  9. georgehants

    November 30, 2011 at 4:56 pm

    The spec sheet will be used as a basis for all expected third party independent tests to be conducted in our premises according to protocols that will be provided (and published)
    the future.
    Lots off people, labs or industries are asking to perform tests. Fine. Now we have presented what they can (and have) to test. This is our standard procedure at this stage. Any build or invention is a product after such testing performed by third parties, including the authorities that will certify their safety before any public test. Till then, we do not call Hyperions “products” but pre-industrial prototypes.

    Thank you

  10. georgehants

    November 30, 2011 at 4:58 pm

    From Facebook
    Albert Kong We were right about the RF cabling, which is for telemonitoring. Amazing how much can be deduced from a photograph. If the bulk of the heat is produced directly using phonons (vibrations in a lattice), then this device is much safer than we imagined and a much bigger puzzle for the theorists.

  11. Andrew

    November 30, 2011 at 4:59 pm

    On page 4 of the Hyperion spec, bottom right, there are “Pleasure and temperature sensors”. I wonder what kind of heat this instrument generates …

  12. Burt

    November 30, 2011 at 5:19 pm

    Did you guys notice the COP specification? Nice reading, to say the least….

  13. georgehants

    November 30, 2011 at 5:34 pm

    Some questions I have put on Defkalion page

    Defkalion,
    1, Is your Hyperion ready for sale today.
    2, Have you sold any hyperions that are now working on site.
    3, please give the date of the first public demonstration of a working Hyperion.

    Thank you.

    • georgehants

      November 30, 2011 at 5:48 pm

      So we are in the same place as with Rossi, who will win the confirming action.

      Defkalions reply’s.
      1, No, Hyperion as a product needs to be supported by certificates, a distribution/first level support network (at least in Greece) and our second/third level support.
      2, No, as answered in [1]
      3, Date of every specific schedule tests will be released later.

      Thank you

  14. Ivan Mohorovicic

    November 30, 2011 at 5:47 pm

    DGT added several subsections in the Hyperion forum:
    http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=17

  15. LCD

    November 30, 2011 at 5:53 pm

    according to the gamma emissions, the (presumably) leftover emissions (past shielding) are <0.18uSieverts per hour.

    To put it in perspective, the background radiation for a typical american is 0.34uSv/hour. For an Austrailian its 0.17uSv/hour

    • TomAndersen

      November 30, 2011 at 8:25 pm

      This does not mean that anything gets past the shielding. Its just hard to measure gamma radiation below background levels. It surely can be done, but there is no need for now.
      Note the ‘<' sign.

      –Tom

      • LCD

        December 1, 2011 at 1:03 am

        I agree.

    • GreenWin

      December 2, 2011 at 12:54 am

      LCD, we have it on authority that while Australians claim emissions at rest of 0.17uSv/hour, repeated use of the word “crikey” raises the rate to nearly 0.67uSv/hour. Making cricket matches something of an exposure risk.

  16. Roger Barker

    November 30, 2011 at 7:23 pm

    Well, all we have are some specs. I could have written something like this up my self. It proves nothing. When are we going to see some tests? Again, nobody needs to see the secret sauce, I just want to see some independent black box testing.

    • daniel maris

      November 30, 2011 at 10:00 pm

      I couldn’t agree more. If they are so far advanced they can have videos of the thing operating and they can get independent testing of some sort, even if not a full scientific evaluation.

  17. H. Visscher

    November 30, 2011 at 7:39 pm

    Well I like these developments. Seems DGT puts a lot of energy in the whole adventure. I guess I was wrong about them. Yes, like Thicket says it is all words, however, I did not expect more at this stage and to be honest I am impressed. Hope to see verification from third party soon and then…. Welcome New World!

  18. Mahron

    November 30, 2011 at 7:39 pm

    Looking better every day !

    If fusion reactors become mainstream it is going to create havok.

    Wind and solar will be gone. All nuclear power plants will have to be redesigned. All plants being built will be stopped to reevaluate the situation. ITER will become useless. All car manufactures will probably start looking into it, and if can be used safely in moving vehicles, oil will also fade away. A lot of people doing research on future energy sources will go out of work due to lack of funding.

    exiting and scary at the same time !

    • ECATMAN

      November 30, 2011 at 8:09 pm

      It will also create havok on our government because they are so reliant on the enormous amount of revenue from the energy sectors. Oil alone has leases, production taxes, windfall taxes and gas taxes. There is no way of replacing that much revenue. Does anyone have a clue.

      • Josh

        November 30, 2011 at 9:33 pm

        No way of replacing that much revenue? Many people forget that for every transaction, there is an equal and opposite transaction. One person’s asset is another person’s liability. Tax revenue from oil companies is paid by people who purchase energy. If those people no longer have to purchase energy (at least in the traditional sense), those people will have more money for the government to tax away. The government likes to tax energy because it’s easy – most people use it and it’s tough to avoid. Property taxes, income taxes, food taxes… anything tough to avoid will be subject to tax increases to make up for lost revenue – of course, the government is also one of the largest purchasers of energy, so it will experience savings as well. In theory, cheap energy is very deflationary… it will cost less to live. But, it will all depend on how quickly the transition occurs.

        Here I am talking like I believe someone has developed commercializable “free” energy. I hope it’s true, but I refuse to get my hopes up high before I see something real. At least there’s a second ring at the dog and pony show with DGT’s involvement.

      • Ransompw

        November 30, 2011 at 10:09 pm

        Our current debt crisis has really messed up economic thinking in the world. Austrian economics seems to have gained followers, what a waste. Listen the only thing that matters is employment and productivity. An energy revolution will stimulate employment and strongly enhance productivity. The standard of living will shoot through the roof. Debt is an illusion, the world can’t owe itself money, it just effects the distribution of wealth.

        • Peter Roe

          December 1, 2011 at 9:01 am

          “Debt is an illusion, the world can’t owe itself money”.

          That’s obviously right. But what the ‘system’ is trying convince us of is that we all individually and collectively owe a fortune to the banks. Until we can shake off this fiction (by unilaterally defaulting on all ‘debt’ that arises from interest payment) any extra wealth created will simply be sucked up by our financial ‘masters’.

          No-one seems to notice that crops and trees still grow, mines still yield raw materials, water still flows – in other words that nothing *real* has changed and this whole economic mess is completely fictitious – a manufactured illusion. We are stuck in a fake reality of our own creation that causes real damage for no reason other than to make a tiny number of people rich and powerful beyond imagination.

          • georgehants

            December 1, 2011 at 9:10 am

            Peter please don’t talk common sense and Truth it is almost a crime.
            Everything should be based on productivity, no money except for admin purposes.
            productivity means people only working to produce needs, half the population need not work, or everybody retires at 45. (plenty to add of course)
            No boom and bust, and with no finance the M25 would empty overnight.

          • Nathan Hulse

            December 1, 2011 at 12:24 pm

            Less of the ‘we’, Peter: It is a fake reality of their creation. Though its not difficult to argue that we are all participants in a hyperreality, we did not create the conditions that gave rise to it.

    • ECATMAN

      December 1, 2011 at 12:23 am

      Thanks guys, that gives me a lot to think about.

    • Casey

      December 1, 2011 at 5:30 am

      And climate scientists will be out of work, because well, they’d be obsolete since we’d move away from a Co2 producing energy.

  19. daniel maris

    November 30, 2011 at 7:57 pm

    The press release was deeply disappointing. It didn’t even have a link to the spec. Whoever does their PR should be asked to find alternative employment -it was really amateur (and why so late in the day? – pathetic).

    The spec looks impressive, but I leave that to others with the ability to analyse.

    But why in this day and age have they got no videos on their site showing the prototype in operation? The absence of such confirmatory video is also really poor.

    DGT have let a golden opportunity go to waste. It’s pretty unforgiveable. If they come good in the end, well then, excellent… but this performance hardly inspires confidence.

    • H. Visscher

      November 30, 2011 at 8:44 pm

      whine, whine, whine.

      My goodness Daniel, your glass is always half empty isn’t it?

      • Burt

        November 30, 2011 at 9:06 pm

        LOL, there is actually one drop missing in the glass. Catastroph!

      • daniel maris

        November 30, 2011 at 10:27 pm

        Not at all, I am just pointing out some pretty basic deficiencies in their presentation. Their weak presentation reflects badly on all LENR work. If they can’t mount an impressive presentation (and they should be able to if they really have a working prototype) then it would be better if they maintained silence.

    • Tony

      November 30, 2011 at 10:28 pm

      It annoys me that people comment when they can’t understand the specifications!

      • daniel maris

        December 1, 2011 at 3:27 am

        You shouldn’t be annoyed – the view of the general public is key – or at least one of the keys – here.

        As to the specification, some people have already commented that they could have produced that themselves, or something v. similar without possession of a working model. In that sense, it is pretty meaningless.

        We need close up and extended video of operations and independent testing.

        Don’t shoot the messenger. 🙂

  20. LCD

    November 30, 2011 at 8:20 pm

    All in all it’s still an announcement of an announcement.

    Nothing for sale, no test schedule.

    The only semi-interesting things are the “row” or raw material on pg 6 (no copper and only trace amts of cobalt which means a post mass spectroscopic analysis showing either in significant amounts would be groundbraking) AND pg 21 the beginning of the second paragraph

    “Such measurments of phenomena gave us strong evidence on the activation mechanisms of Nickel that allow the nuclear capture of Hydrogen (the “breaking” of the Coulomb barrier), as well as the thermalization mechanism in a dynamic system of multi-stage set of reactions.”

    That means cold fusion. There is really no way around that. If it trully is room temperature proton proton fusion then we scientists/engineers are about to get schooled.

    • daniel maris

      November 30, 2011 at 10:28 pm

      Yes, that was the disappointment – still an announcement of an announcement.

  21. LCD

    November 30, 2011 at 8:40 pm

    @Soo you said
    “Just an observation based upon your many comments these last several weeks and your, unjust in my view, criticisms of Rossi, along with your placid, uncritical acceptance of DGT’s theft of Rossi’s IP. That’s going over to the dark side. Evil can seem so banal at times.”

    Soo what you have to understand is that Rossi didn’t invent LENR, yes he put it on the map and deserves credit for the discovery of let’s say High Energy LENR, but there were people before him Arata, Piantelli, Patterson, obviously Focardi who put a lot of effort into this and he completely ignores that fact. As if he invented the whole concept. He doesn’t even know the theory.

    As we say HE stood on the shoulders of giants. The research was done over 22 years on the blood and sweat of many including public funds so you have to forgive me if I don’t agree with Rossi’s methods. I would have at least signed an NDA with NASA or SPAWAR and then used thier help and support to make trillions.

    He went lone wolf and frankly deserved what he got. Remember Rossi may not be lying about LENR but he did jail time and was convicted on several DIFFERENT and unrelated charges. He is not a nice person but he talks a good game. He was given a once in a lifetime chance to do the most public good ever but instead he hoards the secret, (which wouldn’t bother me if he was actually moving quickly towards developing the technology but he’s going at a snails pace) and really doesn’t give a rats pattuti about the support you show him.

    My patience with Rossi is done, I would like to see how DGT comports themselves.

    • Sojourner Soo

      November 30, 2011 at 9:07 pm

      Yes, most inventors usually do “stand on the shoulder of giants.” That is, after all, how science evolves. Nonetheless, none of Rossi’s LENR predecessors were able to accomplish what Rossi has accomplished. I find their behaviour, particularly the theft of Rossi’s IP, utterly reprehensible. I can’t justify it even if others can. I pity Greece if DGT is representative of its business class. The way they comport themselves is already disgustingly evident. I was fully supportive of DGT, until I read the Ny Teknik story. DGT and Piantelli are more Machiavellian than Rossi. Dirty, rotten skunks. I hope they fail spectacularly and I hope Rossi sues both of them.

      • Roger Barker

        November 30, 2011 at 11:35 pm

        Soo: Nonetheless, none of Rossi’s LENR predecessors were able to accomplish what Rossi has accomplished.

        This is not true as we do not have definitive proof and just what Rossi says.

      • LCD

        December 1, 2011 at 1:18 am

        Who was reprehensible Soo, we don’t even know if Rossi screwed DGT or vice-versa. DGT says he broke the agreement because of a test protocol and you know what that sounds really plausible. Next Rossi makes the bonehead mistake of giving them a spectroscopic measurement knowing that was key. What was DGT suppose to do (if they are telling the truth), there is no ip fraud, he left them hanging.

        Still after all that they give Rossi chance after chance to come back. To this day they are still planning to honor the contract with Rossi. Now they have their own design (allegedly). They want to be more open. We’ll see. I am more willing to support somebody like that with my hard earned money.

        • Ransompw

          December 1, 2011 at 3:30 am

          LCD:

          Actually, it all depends on the contract who breached and what if any clause exists regarding use of trade secret information. I’d say no way to know at this time.

          • Tony

            December 2, 2011 at 7:51 pm

            Rossi and DGT fighting over the rights to a non-existent device. I heard the Falklands War once described as two bald men fighting over a comb. This is even better (or worse depending on where you stand).

            Tony2

    • Roger Barker

      November 30, 2011 at 10:58 pm

      Hear hear LCD!

      • LCD

        December 1, 2011 at 1:09 am

        Let’s get s beer later Roger.

  22. LCD

    November 30, 2011 at 8:43 pm

    The ecat will create as many jobs as it will destroy. A lot of people are going to be shifting careers. Change is good though. In the short run we’ll have some chaos but that will be buffeted by the simple fact that 99% of the world still has no clue this is going on.

    • Burt

      November 30, 2011 at 9:16 pm

      The change in consumption power will override problems like vanishing oil taxes etc. Calculate the number of households in your country times 1000 Euro (moderate estimate of energy cost savings). This is the increased consumption power per year in your country. It will surely drive the economy forward so that lower energy tax revenues for governments will be possible to handle. Actually there is much more to consider of course. Energy spendings for public authorities and public institutions will also decrease drastically….

      • LCD

        December 1, 2011 at 1:20 am

        Agreed and really oil companies can easily invest in the technology and find a niche if they wanted to.

    • Stephen

      December 1, 2011 at 6:55 pm

      I doubt that 50+ million people have heard of, or understand, what’s going on.

      • LCD

        December 2, 2011 at 2:32 am

        Okay 99.9%??

        • Stephen

          December 3, 2011 at 12:49 am

          50,000 top, my last offer.

  23. John Dlouhy

    November 30, 2011 at 10:12 pm

    Well, we were hoping for a “hyperion” but all we got was “hype”. Does anyone feel short changed? WHY WON’T ANYONE SHOW US A COLD FUSION REACTOR? Maybe there’s a really good reason why…

    • Roger Barker

      November 30, 2011 at 10:59 pm

      Very much so. I was hoping for at least one demo/test by DGT. All we have is some pages with numbers.

    • Matthew

      November 30, 2011 at 11:06 pm

      I sure am…I was at least expecting data of third party test confirming this. This hurts the whole cold fusion field. Sad.

      • daniel maris

        November 30, 2011 at 11:26 pm

        I agree, it’s very sad. If they really do have a working product they are developing, it would have been better if they had maintained silence (which they have previously done for months on end) rather than come out with this poor presentation, which just casts doubt over the whole field.

    • CM Edwards

      November 30, 2011 at 11:36 pm

      Yes, but I’m not so angry that DGT couldn’t get back in my good graces by proceeding directly to their public test. They claim they’ve got a working reactor, and (in an earlier post to their forum) that they have the necessary test equipment with the willingness to use it. They need to get cracking.

      Andrea Rossi was right about one thing. The time for shows and talk from Leonardo Corporation was over; it was time for results. Defkalion is arriving at that point now.

      I await results.

  24. LCD

    December 1, 2011 at 1:26 am

    I’m just mad and tired of not having a cold fusion hot water heater when supposedly the information to build one myself already exists. And I’m tired of the curent waste on energy spending that is being allowed by all the players if this is real.

    Haven’t heard from NASA and bushnell in a while. Wonder what he’s got to say.

  25. Matthew

    December 1, 2011 at 4:09 am

    Has anyone here tried to set up a LENR?

    I think if rossi’s right, you’d need nickel powder, hydrogen with mental pan? You plug the “spork plugs” from a source of energy and put the other end on the mental pan. You’d then measure the energy throwing from source(input) into the pan then you measure output or any extra energy coming from the reaction. If you could get a measurement of extra energy then I’d think you could confirm it for your self.

    The reason I said if rossi’s right, is because his patent said it can work without the special Catalysts. Just not stable.

    • Matthew

      December 1, 2011 at 4:17 am

      Correction, not sporkplug, but sparkplug.

      Add a few more lines.
      That’s why he thinks he can get one without the catalysts.

      Maybe a few of us with a strong back ground with experiments should try it and report back.

    • Casey

      December 1, 2011 at 5:43 am

      Playing with nickel and hydrogen can be dangerous. It can spontaneously ignite when exposed to air. Read up on Raney nickel for the dangers.

  26. H. Visscher

    December 1, 2011 at 6:57 am

    From Rossi’s site. Is he talking about DGT?

    Andrea Rossi
    December 1st, 2011 at 12:44 AM
    WARNING: SOMEBODY IS ON THE ROAD SAYING THEY HAVE SUCCEEDED IN STEALING OUR TECHNOLOGY ( WHOSE PATENT HAS BEEN GRANTED IN ITALY AND IS PENDING IN THE WORLD) AND ARE TRYING TO SELL A MOCK UP SAYING IT IS AN UPGRADED COPY OF THE E-CAT. ATTENTION: NOBODY HAS EVER COPIED OUR TECHNOLOGY. PROBABLY THIS IS A STUNT AIMED TO COLLECT MONEY FROM UNCAUTIOUS BUYERS. WE JUST WANT TO MAKE EVERYBODY WELL CONSCIOUS OF THE FACT THAT WE ARE TOTALLY UNRELATED TO ANY PRODUCT THAT HAS NOT BEEN SPECIFICALLY MARKED BY US AND THAT HAS NOT OUR CERTIFICATION. AT THE MOMENT OUR E-CATS ARE FOR SALE ONLY FOR WHAT CONCERNS 1 THERMAL MW PLANTS, BECAUSE THE 10 KW E-CATS ARE NOT YET CERTIFIED.
    WARM REGARDS,
    A.R.

    • Casey

      December 1, 2011 at 7:14 am

      BTW, I think it is the 1.8 cm ceramic layer is what absorbs the gamma rays and “generates” the heat. I think the .3cm radiation shielding is to just keep any excess from leaking out.

    • Renzo

      December 1, 2011 at 7:52 am

      From Daniele Passerini blog, an user called Vettore (that is Andrea Rampado of Biokavitus) has written an interesting comment, here is my translation:

      “I’ll explain you why, in my opinion, DGT is bluffing. As information theory, and also popular wisdom, theach, the devil is in the details. At first sight the Hyperion’s specs seem well done and comprehensive but at a better reading you see they are nothing else but an excerpt of the parts of the device they had to develop as DGT! In facts there are thorough informations about “what” but not about “how”, they expand upon irrilevant details (note how they’re accurate about threads!) but they don’t add anything new and interesting that should have come out after months of development. Even the times of refueling and other details are the same as agreed with Rossi! (Yet they claim a cop 5/6 times greater!). Let’s not speak about some inconsistencies in the data and the fact they don’t make mention of the proper regulations for some parts. In my opinion they have been at a standstill for months: they have the product but not the core. This means they still hope to get it from Rossi, or they hope to get it on their own sooner or later…”

      • Ivan Mohorovicic

        December 1, 2011 at 11:03 am

        User “Vettore” is not Andrea Rampado of Biokavitus.
        User “Armando de Para” / “MISTERO” / “PIEZONUCLEARE” is.

        • Renzo

          December 1, 2011 at 11:54 am

          thanks, I mixed up the names

  27. Matthew

    December 1, 2011 at 8:44 am

    I’m a thousand times more convinced that Rossi has something real then these greeks. The test data for the e-cat is real, but the greeks don’t have anything!

  28. georgehants

    December 1, 2011 at 8:58 am

    Everybody’s attention is drawn to a few individual people Rossi, Defkalion and a small group of scientists that confirm their efforts.
    WHY every time I bring up the total incompetence of main-line science does nobody reply and start aiming criticism in a direction (unlike Rossi et al) where there is no possible defense for their silence, incompetence, and doubt. Cold Fusion is a proven phenomenon.
    WHY has science not informed every person on this Planet that a possible World shattering new Technology is possible, that they are moving money and manpower behind the effort to perfect the utilisation.
    Rossi spent 16 years finding the catalyst virtually on his own (other help excepted) how many man hours is that, how long would it take 1000 lesser scientists to repeat the work.
    Why has the United Nations not called on Rossi to hand over the technology to them for a united concentrated effort to bring Cold Fusion to the World.

    WHY do people concentrate on a side show of Rossi et al and not abuse, blame, attack the scientific profession for it’s clear and indisputable failure to do it’s job.
    WHY are they doing (except a few Rebels) nothing to move this proven Technology into the premier position of research.

    • KPS

      December 1, 2011 at 10:05 am

      Because the greatest fear known to man is to be ridiculed. It’s like the old saying in the IT-world: “Nobody gets fired for buying IBM”.

      • DvH

        December 1, 2011 at 2:06 pm

        some people are driven by fear: to be hurt, blamed, ridiculed, fired, whatever.
        other people are driven by greed: for money, fame, power, whatever.
        THESE are the people who change something.
        IMO, they havn’t yet shown up on this scene….

    • Eric Woudenberg

      December 1, 2011 at 12:04 pm

      Good point George. I think the reason is simply because if you could prove beyond doubt that a practical LENR device is at hand, that alone would change government and scientific priorities overnight.

      Currently the only folks who can do that would seem to be Rossi and DGT. That’s why everyone is pounding on them to do so.

      Without that proof (presumably straightforward for Rossi or DGT to establish) you will spend your life trying to persuade mainstream science that they’re wrong. Look at McKubre, he’s a principled, first rate researcher with solid proof of LENR and even he can’t get the mainstream to take interest. If he could demonstrate reactions like Rossi’s (powerful, efficient, repeatable), that would be a different story.

      • DvH

        December 1, 2011 at 1:57 pm

        the keyword is ‘repeatable’. you could change the world and silence the skeptics with an ugly, small, inefficient, noisy apparatus – WHEN IT WORKS – BEYOND DOUBT.
        optimizing and research why it works will THEN come automatically.
        AR’s blue container has a few of these attributes, AR claims, it works. However, doubts are still here, so the rest is postponed.

        • georgehants

          December 1, 2011 at 2:40 pm

          Why do you say “YOU could” who is you, I thought that was science’s job to prove things, the dumb brains have had 23 years, how much longer do YOU want to give them.

          • DvH

            December 1, 2011 at 6:43 pm

            ‘you’ is ‘one’.
            IMO, no need to wait for scientists. the problem is to show THAT it works, not to find out WHY it works. with ‘THAT it works’ i mean an ugly, small … apparatus which sits in the corner and produces warm water. i do not mean a lab-experiment which sometimes produces some interesting effect (or not) which leads to some research paper (or not).
            who needs scientists when AR is right?

      • GreenWin

        December 2, 2011 at 12:38 am

        Anyone wonder why the World Bank, IMF, European Central Bank are hammering on Greece’s economy?? Trying to force them to take crippling austerity action? Yes, they have accumulated big debt. So has the USA. Greece is one country willing to streamline certification of LENR devices for consumer use . Italy has granted patents to Rossi’s device (enforceable via international agreement.) Both countries are under IMF, ECB stress to pay up or take punishing monetary cuts. Power structure is changing.

    • LCD

      December 2, 2011 at 2:41 am

      because to attack the “established scientific community” you need rock solid evidence. And we simply don’t have it yet. Low Energy LENR is not “good enough,” that’s been tried. You need Rossi type of high energy LENR reactions to convince people.

    • Roninsteel

      December 2, 2011 at 1:33 pm

      Cold fusion has that quack science label that will be hard to remove we need working retail devices then and only then will mr & mrs public want one.
      rossis track record is not good I think there are many who would not buy a used car from this man we must all remember he is not a scientist, but if he is for real it will not matter ……. But most people here like me want this to be real because if this is what it can do in the hands of an amateur , imagine the power from a fully optimised multi chamber e-cat after 100 million dollars of development money

  29. georgehants

    December 1, 2011 at 10:37 am

    A question put to Defkalion on their page.

    Defkalion if the United Nations requested you to donate the technology that you have to the World, for all nations to immediately put maximum effort into providing Hyperion’s for the benefit of all people and offered you full payment and acknowledgement of your contribution—-
    What would you answer.

    Thank you.

    • georgehants

      December 1, 2011 at 10:51 am

      Defkalions reply, make of it what you will.

      We would react positively, according to the needs of each country and our business plan
      Thank you

    • DvH

      December 1, 2011 at 10:53 am

      UN has never done (AFAIK) something like this – even when there might have been reasons for it: how about patents for vaccines or seed? what would a company, lets assume its named ‘m’…’o’ say, when UN asks for free use of some xyz-resistant rice-seed? they would say: ‘you can BUY it’…

      • georgehants

        December 1, 2011 at 10:58 am

        In a Capitalist World you are correct, are you saying that they should or should not take over the Technology.

        • DvH

          December 1, 2011 at 12:27 pm

          what i see around me – this IS a capitalistic world. i am not aware of any large counter-example.
          they should not take it – on what base would it be? who decides? the security-council? with a veto of china? or the full assembly ? how long would it take to decide on the resolution?
          would this be the one and only exception? or is it a start of taking inventions/patents/rights away from the owners for ‘the benefit of mankind’?
          and what would they do with it? put it in public domain ? produce devices by themselves ? to give them away for free? should they license it ? to whom? nations? companies? people? for what price?

          • georgehants

            December 1, 2011 at 2:38 pm

            Instead of continually adding obvious questions why do you not try answering a few of your own.

          • DvH

            December 1, 2011 at 7:46 pm

            @georghants:
            you came up with the idea that UN might ask the greeks to put their invention/product into the hands of UN for the benefit of mankind.
            while this, on first sight, looks like a fantastic idea, it raises a number of questions: how realistic is such a demand from UN? what would be the consequences?
            as none of my questions has a realistic, logical answer, the idea is reduced to its essence: fantasy.

          • Roninsteel

            December 2, 2011 at 1:36 pm

            Royalties is the way forward someone develops ther own design based on an original idea he pays royalties

        • Nathan Hulse

          December 1, 2011 at 12:36 pm

          Where are the Quakers when you need them most? A global co-operative movement with huge buying power is required… Dream on, dream on!

        • DvH

          December 1, 2011 at 12:37 pm

          the greeks say: ‘….according to the needs of each country **and our business plan**’ .
          who could be surprised?

        • Stephen

          December 1, 2011 at 7:01 pm

          George, the UN needs your money, when are you going to write them a check?

  30. Gregory Goble

    December 1, 2011 at 11:20 am

    Hi,

    I have been pondering sound, or harmonic phenomenon (like cavitation), as being the catalyst in the Rossi – E Cat reaction chamber. This can also be harmonics in the radio frequency bandwidth. Knowing your interest I am sending you this. You will find enlightening leads in this piece with which I have been doing flash crowd education.

    A bit of research and I come across this item. Rossi is associated with these folks who are experts in the cavitation phenomenon. http://pesn.com/2011/11/05/9501947_Cavitation_as_a_Purification_Panacea/

    Different frequencies may cause cavitation and focus heat within the nickel and hydrogen lattice, specific frequencies oscillating through a harmonic may create standing waves weakening the lines of resistance between subatomic particles. Is vibration the catalyst in the Rossi E Cat reaction chamber? Related information see Sonofusion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonofusion

    Are the radio frequencies creating a micro-cavitation within the nickel hydrogen lattice? This is the first post I found where Rossi mentions radio frequency generation as part of the reaction process. “In the self sustained mode, a one megawatt plant can operate at full power, while consuming a miniscule amount of electricity to operate fans, pumps and radio frequency generators”, Andre Rossi. http://www.leonardo-ecat.com/fp/Products/1MW_Plant/index.html

    Further harmonic speculation in a recent CBS News article “Cold Fusion Debate Heats Up After Latest Demo” -By Natalie Wolchover- “Peter Hagelstein, an MIT professor of electrical engineering and computer science and one of the most mainstream proponents of cold fusion research, thinks the process may involve vibrational energy in the metal’s lattice driving nuclear transitions that lead to fusion.” .www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57318762/cold-fusion-debate-heats-up-after-latest-demo

    “Not so far in the distant future, the next generation… will look back at our generation.. and know that the term ‘energy shortage’ was a term for unenlightened minds” gbgoble-2008

    Enjoy,

    Greg

    • Peter Roe

      December 1, 2011 at 2:18 pm

      I think “vibrational energy” probably refers to magnetostriction – rapid distortions of the otherwise regular lattice the nickel atoms tend to form. This is induced by magnetic fields which in this case could be created in several ways: oscillating external field, RF induction from an antenna, or eddy currents resulting from modulated current flow through the nickel.

      The idea is that as a the lattice opens up at a particular location due to magnetostriction, a hydrogen nucleus (proton) may by chance move into the interstitial space. Then, as the magnetic field collapses or reverses, the interstitial space closes up, crushing the proton into closer proximity than would normally be possible with a nearby nickel nucleus. What happens at that point is well beyond my pay grade!

    • GreenWin

      December 1, 2011 at 11:45 pm

      Greg, you are right. Not about the science. You’re close but not quite there… You ARE right about the phrase “energy shortage.” Yes, it will be associated with unenlightened minds. But let’s go easy on the humans. They’ve been told, preached to, scolded, threatened and beaten with thermodynamics, Newtonian physics and limits of luminosity (C.) The idea of vacuum flux energy has been routinely suppressed via paid debunkery.

      But recall the Shuttle astronauts that hung a wire off the spacecraft and attempted to measure the voltage it accumulated just moving through vacuum. They FRIED two of their three computers and nearly lost the entire electronics system due to overload. Point is, there is energy all around us. Always has been. Guys selling fossil fuel kinda hate that idea.

      Finally, after 22 years of government and industry heads inserted where the sun does not glow, we are seeing the light. The energy that’s all around us. We can and WILL make use of it. And all the years prior to this when pundits and industry and corrupt science has told us energy is scarce, precious, to be frugally meted out in tiny, crippling morsels – we remained unenlightened. Those days are over. We’re getting the light. Change is good.

  31. daniel maris

    December 1, 2011 at 11:38 am

    Well, that was certainly interesting…Speculation but informed speculation…

  32. Mike

    December 3, 2011 at 7:47 am

    Anti tamper devices!

    If they make $0.01 on every unit — then they will rule the world,, they will hold it to ransom. I think it is time to ignor these people –the free publicity you are generating is just putting the price up!
    Can anyone think of a self distruct appliance already in use?