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Defkalion – We Got eCat Secret Through University Of Siena

November 29, 2011

Mats Lewan of Ny Teknik, the Swedish tech magazine at the forefront of reporting on Rossi’s eCat has an interesting article this morning. It notes the disparity between the recent pronouncement by Defkalion GT’s Alexandros Xanthoulis dissociating the Hyperion from Rossi’s eCat. According to the publication, back in August 5, 2011, Xanthoulis said the following over the phone:

“Let’s say I have the formula of Rossi, but I’m not saying it officially. My scientists found a way to make it. They need three months.”

Rossi has been consistent in his assertion that they have nothing despite the company’s public stance that they had it all and would continue on course with or without him. This is possible, according to Xanthoulos in that same conversation because:

“First of all, the first problem was with 48 hours, that’s for sure. And he had a huge fight with one of my scientists, Mr Hadjichristos, you’ve heard of him most probably, Yiannis, because we were insisting on 48 hours. But we know the problem; we didn’t tell him of course, we know the problem.

I know what he’s got in the reactor, I know everything. It was a spectroscopy (Greek: ‘fasmatoscopy’) made by the university of Siena. It was an equipment made by the University of Siena. It understands everything that’s inside the reactor. So we know the components.”

Ny Teknik: Who did that?

“The University of Siena.

They tried his reactor without him understanding what they did. They checked it and we know what’s in the reactor.

So it’s a matter of two or three months that my scientists can reproduce that, but I’m not going to try it. I’m playing a fair game.

We solved the problem. The problems he’s got, we solved them. Because the problem is that he cannot spread the reaction all over the pipe, and all the heating is concentrated in the middle. So we found the solution.”

(This quote is slightly adjusted for clarity through advice from Defkalion

If this is true, it puts into perspective what Rossi has been saying all along about letting competitors near the system under the guise of testing it. But I wonder. The conversation took place back in August. Are they saying that Rossi gave access to Siena – within shouting distance of Piantelli? That’s a big deal if true. We know that  Professor Celani (of INFN) tried to sneak some measurements in spectral mode but could not. Did someone at Siena really succeed?  This statement is verifiable by the University. It would be interesting to hear them comment.

The situation – according to Defkalion has completely changed. Following up on the August conversation, Lewan recently got the following from the company:

“So much has changed since August, many minor events and issues have taken place making it hard to tie the story together with a few words of Alex back then. Defkalion is working on exothermic reactions between Nickel and Hydrogen. Our products have completely different technologies (encompassing electronics, engineering, materials) than from Rossi, even [if] we have understood where Rossi has made his mistakes.”

The article is in English and well worth reading in its entirety. There are other gems in there, including the following:

 

According to reliable sources to Ny Teknik, there are stakeholders who have tried to make commercial agreements with Rossi, and who are now actively seeking opportunities to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in this area.

The scene is perfectly set for Defkalion’s announcement tomorrow. The scriptwriter is working well.

[With thanks to Anders F]

Posted by on November 29, 2011. Filed under Defkalion,Drama,Hyperion,Media & Blogs. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

96 Responses to Defkalion – We Got eCat Secret Through University Of Siena

  1. Renzo

    November 29, 2011 at 11:38 am

    The university of Siena must issue an official statement about this, they can’t ignore it

    • Ivan Mohorovicic

      November 29, 2011 at 11:56 am

      This would be industrial espionage.

      • Matthew

        November 29, 2011 at 12:03 pm

        Rossi doesn’t have any protection(no patent), so he can’t do anything about it. The real bad news comes if Defkalion has their cold fusion machine making electricy, 1 mw and home units tomorrow and ready to go. Rossi won’t be able to compete. If what that paper says is true then Defkalion cold fusion device is also much more stable…Rossi won’t like this at all, but can’t stop it either.

        • Francesco CH

          November 29, 2011 at 12:12 pm

          Rossi obtained a patent valid for Italy (issued on 6 April 2011), so the University of Siena would be involved in industrial espionage

          • Giorgio

            November 29, 2011 at 1:03 pm

            I agree, it is industrial espionage

          • Peter Gluck

            November 29, 2011 at 1:17 pm

            @Francesco CH
            But only if the Patent says something about the real solution, additives, catalyst, stimulation of something. If the patent is different from the real solution, then mo chance in a trial.

          • Sojourner Soo

            November 29, 2011 at 5:34 pm

            This is just a human tragedy, in my opinion. And, what’s worse is that Piantelli is definitely implicated. Did he not start his own company right afterwards and then agree to work with NASA? So sad. I hope Rossi sues all their asses. This is outrageous behaviour. Dirty, rotten finks!

          • jjjioman

            December 1, 2011 at 2:53 pm

            Amazing how you guys build up a fake. NASA never tested the ecat. Rossi won’t let scientists verify the gamma rays. You think Defkalion isn’t in on this global fake? haha, think again. It’s all a big fake to continue to discredit LENR/cold fusion research and you’re all supporting these fakers.

        • Johannes Hagel

          November 29, 2011 at 3:01 pm

          From the legal point of view this may or may not be industrial espionage or theft of industrial secrets. However, taken the importance and impact of this invention for mankind are’nt we better served by looking at a moral point of view? Releasing the benifits of this enormous breakthrough to all of us as quickly as possible? Or to put it in other words. The E-Cat and LENR should it belong to a single person or company or should it be property of all of us? Like the most famous paintings and pieces of music and art are our common property, a product of human culture? Ok, maybe just a different way of looking at it.

          • Sojourner Soo

            November 29, 2011 at 5:36 pm

            Bullcrap. It’s Rossi’s invention. Stealing another’s IP is never justified. You assume that humanity won’t benefit from Rossi’s invention, unless others engage in theft. What crock.

        • Anthony Garcia

          November 29, 2011 at 3:50 pm

          Some thing this big could never be contained by one man. Isnt Rossi jusr refining the technology that was made known 20 yrs ago. This tech will only get better(refined) and could never be left to one man. Somthing that will change the world will have to involve the whole world.

        • Francesco CH

          November 29, 2011 at 3:55 pm

          Dear Peter Gluck,

          in my opinion Rossi’s patent is a sort of matryoshka with all the dolls except from the one at the innermost core: it’ lacks the most secret part, but everything can work also without it: the patent is valid precisely for this reason IMHO. And, for this reason, it is a patent which might be very difficult to circumvent.

          • Anders F

            November 29, 2011 at 4:16 pm

            The patent is basically worthless since there are similar earlier patent applications that has been rejected or dropped. The things that makes his invention unique has not been revealed in the patent and are therefore not covered by the patent. Prior art will kill any future patent application unless it contains new and unique ways to improve the reaction. Even if Rossi or someone else got a broad patent granted, countries that represent more than half the worlds population would simply ignore it and the rest would have no choice but to do the same or risk falling behind.

          • Francesco CH

            November 29, 2011 at 4:32 pm

            Anders F,

            I have to insist: Rossi has a patent, issued on 6 April 2011 in Italy. It is an Italian patent which contains elements that only Rossi’s patent specifies up to now.

            It is not easy to circumvent this patent, especially if you use some sorts of nickel powder (and not only nickel powder).

          • DvH

            November 29, 2011 at 4:39 pm

            AFAIK, the patent is owned by AR’s wife…

          • Francesco CH

            November 29, 2011 at 4:51 pm

            The patent is owned by Rossi’s wife, but the patent also states that the inventor is Andrea Rossi.

          • Peter Gluck

            November 29, 2011 at 5:52 pm

            Caro Francesco,
            The problem is that the patent attorneys don’t like Rossi’s patents. I have some
            of the documents attesting this. The Italian patent has symbolic value- not legal outside Italy the EU/WO patent was already rejected, the US I don’t know.
            I think that was DGT has is different from Rossi’s Catalyst but has the same function.

          • Anders F

            November 29, 2011 at 6:03 pm

            Francesco,

            Insist all you want, that patent is worthless and Rossi knows it.

        • Roger Barker

          November 29, 2011 at 7:44 pm

          If what DGT say is true then I have no sympathy for Rossi. He’s effectively dug his own grave.

      • TomAndersen

        November 29, 2011 at 6:07 pm

        If Rossi let the someone at a university test the reactor, then its not espionage. They just pointed an instrument at it. (If Rossi has a document that says they can’t record details about the X-Rays or gammas, then that is different.) In any case, the people that own them today can turn one on and point an X-Ray spectrometer at it if they like, then send the results to who ever they want. There are not many countries where its illegal to take apart something you own.
        Its a different manner if they use that information to violate any patent. However, the patents I have seen mention little about the exact reaction, etc. The patents don’t seem that strong, IMHO, but I am no patent expert.

        The idea of a patent is NOT to hide your process, but to make it public. To say ‘see – we did it our way’. That is the problem with Rossi’s patent – you can’t build an ecat using it.

    • AB

      November 29, 2011 at 2:39 pm

      Indeed Renzo – we should be seeing a press statement from the U. of Siena soon.

  2. Matthew

    November 29, 2011 at 11:44 am

    Maybe they have a more advance mixture of stuff within theirs, which makes it more stable then rossi’s e-cat. If so it wouldn’t be rossi’s idea.

    • Peter Roe

      November 29, 2011 at 6:31 pm

      If that’s the case (and I’m sure it is) then DGT need to urgently obtain their own patents for all their own refinements, changes and additions. If they don’t, Rossi might buy and reverse engineer a Hyperion! But seriously, if DGT cannot get EU/US patent protection they will be just as vulnerable as Rossi to IP theft if they release any products.

  3. Camilo

    November 29, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    I can’t avoid feeling thankfull to Rossi for bringing the Ecat to the world, and therefore feel that what DGT is doing is rather a shame. However, the world needs something as commercial LENR badly, and this early onset of competition is good news for everyone.

  4. Nathan Hulse

    November 29, 2011 at 12:35 pm

    I get the impression that, if he is to be believed, Rossi’s major concern in his scheming is to avoid being crushed by the incumbent energy giants, to manoeuvre the eCat into a position where no-one can prevent it acting as the instrument of changes that benefit mankind as a whole. If Defkalion intervenes tomorrow with a saleable product, how will it alter the speed at which the tech is propagated? Could this actually be bad news for the average joe?

    • Josh

      November 29, 2011 at 3:21 pm

      I’d argue that the more people that have this knowledge, the better. Currently, Rossi is the only person standing in the way of propagating this technology (assuming it is real). He has turned down willing buyers in public and refuses to partner with people capable of mass production. I hope DGT has what they claim. I fear another dog and pony show of promises and half-proofs.

  5. Casey

    November 29, 2011 at 12:56 pm

    Damn this Soap Opera, Defkalion mentions the one plausible thing, gamma ray spectroscopy.

    Rossi said he never gave them his secret, and that could be true. Rossi also forbid gamma ray spectroscopy at one of his earlier tests because that could give too much away.
    By examining the gamma rays it should tell you what elements are present and maybe a bit about what type of reaction takes place. I bet enough info that a few researchers and some trial and error could reproduce it.

    Obviously at some point Rossi himself would have wanted gamma ray measurements made. Rossi claims to have a theory on why his reaction works, and I’d think he’d need those measurements to reach that conclusion.
    Defkalion while working with Rossi would need some information on gamma rays to make a safe device. Rossi released too much information? Defkalion snuck in their own measurement?

    • TomAndersen

      November 29, 2011 at 6:25 pm

      Look at the numbers…. 2 cm of lead only stops stuff up to 150 – 250 keV. Lots of people think that there should be 512kev gammas from electron beta stuff, but 2 cm of lead only cuts them by about a factor of 25 – so its likely not a big enough block.

      100 keV gammas with 2cm lead 9.35361048 × 10 49 reduction factor (i.e. all)
      200 keV gamma with 2cm lead 700 million factor (virtually all)
      500 keV gamma with 2cm lead 27 factor – Not a big block.

      http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Basic_Physics_of_Nuclear_Medicine/Attenuation_of_Gamma-Rays

      If Rossi is using the least amount of lead that makes sense, then it looks like about 200 keV gammas – if the energy was 40 keV, he would have only needed some lead sheeting, about 1 mm thick.

      So it looks like gammas from 100 – 200 (likely) and perhaps up to 500 (but that would be dangerous if the rate was high). More likely in the 150 range.

  6. Casey

    November 29, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    Could the Defkalion derived Hyperion from examining the gamma ray spectroscopy data be considered legal reverse engineering of a trade secret?
    I think it might.

    • jcragris

      November 29, 2011 at 1:55 pm

      The question is whether the work done at the University of Siena was a joint work of Rossi and Defkalion or not

  7. Stephan

    November 29, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    Many years ago I read a science fiction story where a Peace/Love/Understanding-guy invented a simple machine working as a generator. To the dismay of his friends he started a company making business of the machine, but first complicated it to make it complicated to copy. He became rich and wore a suit. His hippie friends turned away from him, even his girlfriend broke up with him. He got patents and attorneys to defend it when copies came. It all created even stronger attempts to copy it, until one day someone revealed he had managed to boil it down to a few simple pieces, so everyone could copy it. He then gave up defending the patent. So it changed the world. When he met his old girlfriend she critizised him for not giving it away from the beginning, accusing him of greed since he made all that money. No, this was the only way, he said. It would never have become known and spread to everyone if I had not pretended to protect it.

    I came to think of the story when reading various posts on why the e-cat story unfolds as it does. Sadly, I believe it is a hoax, but I would love to be proven wrong. At least it made me remember the old SF-novel.

    • Anonymous Coward

      November 29, 2011 at 3:07 pm

      That’s no sci-fi … that’s the legend about the way Potatoes were introduced in Prussia by Kaiser Frederick the Great … No Prussian peasant, even tough they were starving, would care to plant them until the Kaiser declared them his exclusive property and monopoly and planted them in “secret” fields … everybody knows what happened with potatoes and Germans.

      • Anonymous Wise-Guy

        November 29, 2011 at 8:05 pm

        Sorry, I cannot resist: Frederick the Great was king of Prussia, not Kaiser 🙂
        Funnily enough, the same story exists in France: Antoine Parmentier, in order to bring potatoes to the masses, instructed armed guards to guard the field, but then instructed them to accept any and all bribes from civilians and withdrawing them at night so the greedy crowd could “steal” the potatoes.
        Good story, though…

  8. AB

    November 29, 2011 at 2:25 pm

    This story will spawn a movie or two, regardless of outcome.

    • Renzo

      November 29, 2011 at 2:56 pm

      John Malkovich could play Rossi 🙂

      • David

        November 29, 2011 at 3:54 pm

        Wow, this is a great idea!
        And Danny de Vito could play Focardi 🙂

      • Renzo

        November 29, 2011 at 7:22 pm

        and for Steven “Snake” Krivit i suggest Clive Owen

      • Ghost Dawg

        November 30, 2011 at 4:38 am

        “John Malkovich could play Rossi ”

        ————-

        Hah! That’s perfect Renzo!

    • Ghost Dawg

      November 30, 2011 at 4:41 am

      The story follows Matthew Mcconaughey as Matt Lewan, who “discovers”the “eccentric” inventor, Andrea Rossi and tells the world.

      LOL!

  9. Andre

    November 29, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    DGT, as I understand, was incorporated only recently with the sole intention of bringing e-Cats to (a part of) the world. It is undoubtedly, like many Inc.’s, LLC’s, S.A’s, a separate legal entity with limited liability.

    After their break with Rossi, I cannot see more than two options for them: (1) liquidate the company and stop pursuing this chance to play a large and early role in bringing the world a new revolutionary form of clean and cheap energy; (2) go their own way, taking the risk of being stopped and/or fined sooner or later.

    Knowing what’s at stake, would you choose the first option? The risk of the second option is more or less limited to eventually being put out of business by a legal procedure, in which case you end up with more or less the same result as option (1). At the same time, the upward potential of option 2 is virtually unlimited and, if crafted well, certainly capable of covering some attorney’s bills.

    Option 2 certainly seems viable if all we are talking about is an unprotected trade secret (like Coca Cola’s recipe is theirs). Keeping that a secret is AR’s own responsibility. So unless there are signed non disclosure agreements preventing DGT to take this idea in their own hands, I don’t see much problems for them.

    If I chose the second option, I’d watch my mouth, though, and choose my words very carefully.

  10. Dale G. Basgall

    November 29, 2011 at 2:46 pm

    In the IP department of litigation to come, Defkalion has a response required and it’s usually always the same content.

    Defkalion- ours is completely different and nothing like Mr. Rossi’s.

    That statement right there puts the burden onto Mr. Rossi to prove in a court setting that the Defkalion one is like his e-cat (Rossi’s). This is a generic statement most all infringers make. The inventor then has to sue in a Federal Court.

    With a patent written like the one Rossi’ has issued to him and his wife from Italy, this would cost every penny they would anticipate making in the next three years most likely, and just for litigation.

    In the meantime Defkalion goes on and gets money for their product for the next two years making every step Mr. Rossi has to take actually financed by Mr. Rossi’s own product from his discovered method.

    So “if” Mr. Rossi would have developed the method to stabalize his operation he would have had to restrict everyone from the machine until he wrote his patent and filed it. It would take millions just to attempt to litigate and hold valid claims in the Rossi Patent issued from Italy. That will never happen, the claims in the Italian patent are written with weak terminology and judges would see right through that. In fact a large percentage of all patent infringement cases get settled on the way up the Federal Court house steps.

    Rossi could sue Defkalion and could spend a minimum of a million in litigation and two to three years of his time, (one infringer only right now).
    Go through all the hoops and it’s a full time job for the three years, and on the last day of depositions which could easily take three to four days the attorneys know already who is going to come out favorable to the case.

    Defkalion will just say you can continue on to court and sue us Mr. Rossi and shut us down with your judgement “if” you get what you are asking from us. We will settle for this much cash compensation or if you risk this battle your patent could be invalidated and then you have to sue us further to collect any money from the judgement, and furthermore you are being coutersued for all our investment and time, plus you pay the attorneys. ($500+per hour)

    You can purchase a patent on anything and get all your claims issued but if that something doesn’t work as you claim at the time you wrote your claims, there is nothing to protect. That’s the problem with the Rossi patent, several years after it is issued and he still had no working turn key product.

    This is simply the fact of inventing, “paperwork is your success story” when it is done to the letter of the patent laws.

    The unfortunate thing is that all inventors that develop a product go through this if the product they develop becomes worth millions at the onset. Even if it doesn’t make millions right away the inventor usually always loses his first several patentable products due to paperwork errors that open time consuming worm holes to sort out in court.

    What Defkalion did was obviously for profit, who knows why they took that direction but it’s kind of obvious to me. When an inventor get’s rattled he should never call people names, that’s strike one. When an inventor is in ego mode manufacturers take advantage, hence Defkalions claims, strike two. Writing a patent and trying to capitalize on a technology without a perfectly stable produt at the time, strike three, and Rossi’s out.

    However, I feel the new customer testing Rossis 1-meg plant could be a big ACE in the inventors game. It is obvious that Mr. Rossi did actually discover this method he uses, and whatever anyone contends (Defkalion) we in the U.S. have always run by the “first to invent”, so for this saga of Rossi up to now leads me to always respect him for making a great breakthrough in this technological advance of the century.

    • Anonymous Coward

      November 29, 2011 at 3:14 pm

      You are an optimist.
      With many thanks to President Obama, injustice is served.

      http://macdailynews.com/2011/09/16/obama-signs-first-to-file-u-s-patent-reform-bill-into-law/

      • LCD

        November 29, 2011 at 4:55 pm

        ROSSIS patent hasn’t been apprived, that gas nothing to do with his filing date.

        • Anonymous Coward

          November 30, 2011 at 9:15 am

          True.

          But under this new law, whoever files the paperwork with all stamps and ribbons properly placed gets the patent, regardless the fact that someone else invented the thing he’s claiming protection for.

          Before, Rossi could have safely waited to file a patent with full disclosure.

  11. Burt

    November 29, 2011 at 3:33 pm

    Finally, scam theories are out of the question. Sorry all the still sceptics – it is too impossible with scam scenarios by now. I feel very relieved! You can keep on with scam theories but at last I am confident that it will not touch me the slightest. Yeah!!

  12. Barão

    November 29, 2011 at 3:54 pm

    The University of Siena performed spectroscopy at the request of DGT working together as Mr. Rossi. The University did not perform espionage, only made measurement of gamma rays required. No spying, it’s great that the DGT make available a quality product LENR proffissional to market. This competition is very good for humanity, who has the best solution in a shorter time, will have great advantage.

    • Francesco CH

      November 29, 2011 at 4:48 pm

      Yeah,

      especially when a gigantic injunction for patent infringment will hurt you

  13. georgehants

    November 29, 2011 at 3:54 pm

    The main concern is that Rossi is fully credited with his discovery and receives the Nobel Prize and makes some cash, then sorting out the legal side can wait.
    If anybody tries to take false credit for his discovery that will be evil.

  14. georgehants

    November 29, 2011 at 4:31 pm

    From Facebook, it is important but I can’t find the report on link

    Giuliano Bettini
    Rossi is the inventor.
    http://filologos10.wordpress.com/author/filologos10/
    Hunters of cold fusion in Greece …
    Posted on November 29, 2011
    “As stated, the amount of investment would reach 200 million euros, of which about half would go to establish a factory in Xanthi, with production capacity of 300,000 devices a year – for the international market outside the U.S. – and the other half for payment of the rights of the inventor, Mr. Rossi”.
    filologos10
    filologos10.wordpress.com

    • georgehants

      November 29, 2011 at 4:44 pm

      From Face book, are Defkalion offering Rossi half of 200 million euro’s.

      Albert Kong People have their own sense of fairness and morality. It does not necessarily have to be prescribed by ‘laws’. Especially when the system break down, i.e., is extremely covertly corrupt. It is fantastic to see players rise to such high levels. The world can learn a lot from them. There is hope in humanity after all.

    • renewable energy guy

      November 29, 2011 at 11:47 pm

      This is bad news in my opinion. LENR ecat hyperion whatever its called must be open source technology. Rossi can accept the money and allow hyperion to sell their product and have precedence for any other company that tries to do same.
      I worked in wind energy, solar, water and wastewater systems and this technology must be developed for the good of mankind first and money second. All forms of energy generation is eventually copied wholesale all around the world, so will LENR. Give everyone credit and a bunch of money and open source…

  15. Thicket

    November 29, 2011 at 5:12 pm

    Here’s a link to some Rossicaptions some of you might find amusing.

    http://www.moletrap.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Rossicaptions

    • Nathan Hulse

      November 29, 2011 at 10:01 pm

      Yes, quite amusing, but at this stage in the game, one suspects many are laughing at you, not with you.

  16. LCD

    November 29, 2011 at 5:14 pm

    Defkalion is not in any danger. Reverse engineering and coming up with a better product is normal business. Rossi would have to hope that the product is indeed very similar. But it doesn’t sound like it. Actually if true the most remarkable thing is as ice stated before in my website, this thing is just not that hard to figure out, AND like all of the evidence we’ve had throughout the years, including Brian Aherns patent, its not even that hard to come up with a different version of you know some key pieces of information.

    So my advice to investors is this. Don’t bother worrying about patent protection, that’s just not going to help you. Don’t sign any licensing fees you can’t recover in less than a year. The way to make money on this is going to be in the unique or better application of the technology, not exclusivity.

    Dossier only logical play now is to align himself back with DGT, but will his ego get in the way.

    This whole episode should shoe that his business strategy was the wrong choice from the beginning. He should have aligned himself with a manufacturing giant and not tried to do it lone wolf.

    Well we know now that the first public unit will be easy to reverse engineer and then it will be up to the creativity of the scientists/engineers of the world to development this technology quickly and change the world. Good news.

    • Sojourner Soo

      November 29, 2011 at 5:45 pm

      You seem to have gone over to the dark side.

      • LCD

        November 29, 2011 at 6:54 pm

        Why

        • Sojourner Soo

          November 30, 2011 at 12:32 am

          Just an observation based upon your many comments these last several weeks and your, unjust in my view, criticisms of Rossi, along with your placid, uncritical acceptance of DGT’s theft of Rossi’s IP. That’s going over to the dark side. Evil can seem so banal at times.

      • Roger Barker

        November 29, 2011 at 7:54 pm

        Yeah, why?

    • Peter Roe

      November 29, 2011 at 6:41 pm

      @LCD “(Rossi’s) only logical play now is to align himself back with DGT, but will his ego get in the way.”

      Short answer, yes. But you overlook the hints that his first ‘customer’ is also now a business partner. If this is any part of the US military (or even a large US or multinational corporation under contract to same) then they will almost certainly provide all the protection Rossi needs through contractual agreements. If this protection is in the form of US patents with Rossi’s name on them, then it will be a relative formality to have these echoed by EU patents.

  17. João Dualiby

    November 29, 2011 at 6:05 pm

    Wow! Whatever it is, Lerner and Cold Fusion is now a game of great players, it’s sad to see people applying such high-level dirty tricks on each other.
    But let’s face it, if the players are fighting to be the first to create a marketable product for the rest of us this is very productive! And for the skeptics, this technology gains a profile much more reliable.

  18. Jonny English

    November 29, 2011 at 6:29 pm

    Press release tomorrow so should be fun..

  19. Neil Taylor

    November 29, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    Good post Tom Baccei, but these skeptical rats will quickly change their tunes when they smell the money trail that will arise from LENR….

  20. Roger Barker

    November 29, 2011 at 7:58 pm

    I hate patho-agro-skeps. I hate them with a passion.

  21. Thicket

    November 29, 2011 at 9:16 pm

    I find the ranting of suppressits very amusing. It must be terrible to have such a black, dismal, gloomy outlook. I prefer optimism.

    • Stephen

      November 30, 2011 at 11:14 pm

      Eheheh… Stop Georging us!

  22. daniel maris

    November 29, 2011 at 9:27 pm

    This whole LENR development story does remind me strongly of the history of the early development of the automobile, when a four or five competitors developed their vehicles often borrowing ideas from others, and often fighting each other through the courts over patents.

  23. Bosch Krupp

    November 29, 2011 at 9:28 pm

    Peter Roe Writes:
    “These are the people who destroyed Pons and Fleishman in order to keep cold fusion under wraps in the eighties,”

    I have never understood how the bad guys were able to destroy P&F.

    In 1989, P&F announced they had cold fusion, and the media went crazy: There were huge headlines, long stories; I remember Pons on the MacNeil-Lehrer report; people at MIT were dropping everything to replicate P&F’s results, etc.

    After a while, when nobody seemed able to replicate their supposed achievement, the media got a bit nasty.

    The next thing I recall, was that Japan funded a laboratory for P&F in France, where they had a chance to really show their stuff; but, as far as I know, nothing came of it.

    If I have all that right, how were they ‘destroyed’ except by not having in, the first place, what they thought they had?

  24. daniel maris

    November 29, 2011 at 9:29 pm

    Anybody know what time the Defkalion announcement will be? I wouldn’t want to miss it. 🙂

  25. Barão

    November 29, 2011 at 9:36 pm

    There is no doubt a phenomenon that LENR is real, but there will be many pressures for this fanomeno suppressed or tightly controlled, there are many interests at stake, giant corporations want to maintain their control over people’s lives. An energy model based on abundant, clean and cheap available to all, represents a new paradigm for human civilization. The consequences of a technology like this is unimaginable. Something so great for humanity will not be available easily. The hope would be possible replication in open source projects, where teconologia would be in the hands of thousands, could no longer be suppressed. I fear that large corporations prevent this jump of humanity for a better future.

  26. PaulC

    November 29, 2011 at 10:12 pm

    Rossi obtained a patent IN Italy, so the University of Siena would be involved in industrial espionage, and Rossi now has the funds to hire the Worlds best Law Firms.

    • DvH

      November 30, 2011 at 10:14 am

      when/if he has a lot of funds, the best thing to do is to hire the Worlds best Public Relations Firms….

  27. charles sistovaris

    November 29, 2011 at 10:57 pm

    Is this the turning point we’ve been waiting for since 6 months ?

    I admit I ran out of patience with Rossi. Wether he had it or not, Rossi was increasingly fitting the patterns of a scam : every refusal to properly test the ecat was fueling the skeptical arguments, every “Rossi says on no ground”, building up a wall of disbelief.

    My values are truth, science and progress, not market, business and profit. With technology the world has shrinked & today we’re all on the same boat. Fukushima might have been far from London & Bologna but we all tasted iode in the rain that day. And sorry to bring up the Titanic metaphor but we know accurately enough that with climate change we’re heading into a huge (melting) iceberg.

    So if someone comes up with a magic wand to prevent the boat from sinking but who’s only visible concern is “how am i going to maximize profit out of it”, I’m a little dubious. First of all it is ethically wrong : you have millions of lives at stake and you are obsessively focused on you business strategy… That’s a lot of angry dead kittens waiting for Rossi in Hell. But beyond the moral issue it is severely short minded. If you hold in your hands a game changer (and as Bushnel said, this will totally reshape economic, geopolitics, etc) you don’t think anymore in the coordinates of the old game. The rules of market don’t apply at that stage, you *are* the market. And Rossi completely failed to understand this.

    Don’t get me wrong : maybe Rossi had the qualities of a great inventor : obsession, stuborness, perseverance…. an deserves all the credit for it. But I believe his discovery is bigger than him. Those qualities which brought him to the cold fusion breakthrough may not be the ones needed to bring it to life. Wether it is Defkalion, the M Customer or some surprise new Big Actor, it is for the best Rossi’s not the only one to rely one for our world’s future.

    Oh and I almost forgot : IF all this is true… but god am I excited!

    • John Dlouhy

      November 30, 2011 at 2:56 am

      Well spoken Charles. We share some common values.

      I remember Rossi explaining that his first hint of success came as far back as 1998. If that is true, then his jealous guarding of the secret, while he worked on it over the years, may have set humanity back an entire decade. Imagine if he had shared it with the researchers exploring cold fusion instead of hiding it to serve his selfish interests. Who knows how far along its development would be by now?

      I suspect that Rossi has not understood the true historical significance of his invention either, if in fact he has it. Energy is the underpinning of all human economic activity. Most people have never given this relationship much thought. People are solar powered, literally. Every material that’s produced, machined, assembled, shipped, used, and ultimately disposed of has energy input at every step along the way. Mankind’s productivity took large leaps forward with the discovery of coal, and then later oil. But those steps will seem insignificant to future generations developed on unlimited energy. The petroleum age will appear to them as the dark ages do to us now.

      Who knows what Defkalion will show the world tomorrow? A clear and undeniable demonstration of cold fusion is too much to hope for. Still, I can’t help but feel a little anticipation. After all, the stakes are so high. What if it were really true? It would shake the world!

  28. raul heining

    November 29, 2011 at 11:27 pm

    There is no patent. No one can patent a natural phenomenon. Even if possible to patent
    a chemical compost, Rossi would have to say what it is and that he did not do.
    He knows that and is trying to sell as much as he can and running to come to the front.
    I still think that his fight with defkalion is a red herring and if you think about this you see that the ones which probably may come under attack are Piantelli and the University of Sienna, in order to discredit them and maybe delay them.
    If it was true, a lot of people by now would know the secret. I see each time more a probability of a red herring.
    regards
    raul

  29. peter cowen

    November 30, 2011 at 12:00 am

    IP has no moral justification and therefore to me no moral legitimacy. AR has conducted himself in a way so as to maximise financial gain as opposed to open sourcing it and allowing the whole of humanity to benefit from this. He will get no sympathy if he is usurped in fact I will enjoy a great deal of schadenfreude.

    I help fund open source projects, inventors can still earn a great deal of money and for inventions that are ridiculously small in scale and scope for humanity than this. My greatest hope is that this is real but the secrecy either screams fraud or greed and the latter makes me sad but the former seems more probable.

  30. peter cowen

    November 30, 2011 at 12:03 am

    The idea that people can’t be skeptics? This is the age of the internet, genuine inventors can be spread in a matter of minutes in an open source manner as such negating big interests. Why is there no interest in philanthropy and open source? No interest in getting this stuff out for free? How many people upon confirmation of genuine tech would not openly and happily send Rossi a big fat cheque? Enough to make his life comfortable.

    • Tom Baccei

      November 30, 2011 at 12:54 am

      Totally agree. Do this LENR stuff open source. Challenge the centralized power that makes a few rich, and th rest of us slaves to their whims. THis should be FREE and for EVERYONE!

      • Matthew

        November 30, 2011 at 1:13 am

        I agree. That’s the only way we truly change the world with this in the short term.

    • Josh

      November 30, 2011 at 1:18 am

      Great points, peter.

  31. Tom Baccei

    November 30, 2011 at 12:52 am

    x

  32. Ivan Mohorovicic

    November 30, 2011 at 12:34 pm

    http://www.energeticambiente.it/sistemi-idrogeno-nikel/14742857-novita-cella-piantelli-5.html#post119273029

    Roy Virgilio says again that rumors of agreements between DGT and Piantelli are unfounded.

  33. Rockyspoon

    November 30, 2011 at 4:55 pm

    Well, there’s one person that should be happy with all this–maryyugo (and isn’t it interesting I don’t see a single comment by that person on this post).

    All this time maryyugo was crowing about how it could only be confirmed if it were independently tested. Well, maryyugo, if you’re reading this, your dreams have come true–somebody apparently “tested” it, determined the secret ingredient, and immediately improved upon it. And this is EXACTLY what I’ve said would be done (and why Rossi wasn’t interested in recommendations from “snakes” like you)–whether by hook or crook, it would be the downfall of Rossi and you’d sit back all smug and likely get paid for all the prodding and crying. Good luck with that if you’re working for another “snake”.

    You should be ashamed of yourself, maryyugo (and others of like persuasion). You are scum.

    • Stephen

      November 30, 2011 at 11:18 pm

      And immediately claimed to have improved on it. Two dumbasses to your scum.

    • Ivy Matt

      December 1, 2011 at 6:11 pm

      I don’t find it particularly interesting that maryyugo is no longer commenting at a site from which she has been banned. It seems more like a tautology to me.

  34. MWerner

    November 30, 2011 at 10:35 pm

    In the Ny Teknik article Alexandros Xanthoulis is quoted as saying…
    “I’m not a cheater. We started together and if he has to be paid, he will. But his problem is scientifically solved by us.”
    In this entire list of comments no one seems to have noticed that Alexandros is saying he will pay for the technology. ( though he does say “if he has to be paid” which leaves him some wiggle room)

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