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Cold Fusion Research
November 27, 2011As Rossi’s eCat steams its controversial journey, the landscape it runs on continues to reshape. It can be difficult to keep up at times. The ongoing passionate debate shows that – one way or another – people care about the subject. It’s obvious by some of the comments however, that we cannot assume uniform knowledge. For that reason, I will periodically point to articles that try to wind the threads to a readable narrative.
I would urge anyone new to the subject (and who has not yet done so) to read the eCatNews Brief 1 and Brief 2 linked in the above menu. Brief 1 is a sketch outlining some of the main elements in the cold fusion story. Brief 2 focuses on Andrea Rossi. Between both, they should give anyone new to the subject enough material to decide whether there is something worth watching here or not.
There are excellent articles elsewhere and one recent addition is particularly worth your time.
Ruby Carat is an ex math teacher and now a writer and cold fusion advocate. She runs the blog coldfusionnow.wordpress.com.
An unashamed supporter, she writes well, bringing rational argument supported by sound logic to the table. Her latest post looks at some of the published material coming from the US DoD. Seeing all of this stuff in one sweep is a useful reminder that cold fusion does not lie with the Loch Ness Monster. It is a serious scientific subject and should be considered on that basis, no matter your stance on the eCat.
Thinking about Ruby’s post, Mike McKubre’s recent LENR presentation contains an interesting point at 5.20 (7/8) when he thanks the sponsors who paid for 90% of the SRI work he talked about. Those sponsors were:
DARPA – Defence Advanced Research and Projects Agency
DTRA – Defence Threat Reduction Agency
MITI – Japanese Ministry of Industry And Technical Innovation
EPRI – Electric Power Research Institute
Recap (7/8)
Way back in 2006, the US DTRA realised what so many scientists still refuse to believe. They held a meeting and recommended low level funding for LENR. It seems that SRI benefited from their interest. We now know that DARPA, DTRA, SPAWAR and NASA are all involved in funding or active research programmes. We know that Washington University conducted a short course in Cold Fusion, that MIT – despite its past negativity – is a leading participant in serious research and that companies such as SRI spend large sums in chasing the prize.
Given this background and recent claims from Rossi, Focardi, Piantelli, Miley, McKubre, Storms, Ahern, Arata and others, it is inconceivable that this activity is not being matched elsewhere. In businesses around the world, foreign powers in and beyond NATO, university labs and well-resourced researchers already experienced in the field, a race is underway. In the scale of things, the playing field is modest but don’t be fooled by the silence. Even as the subject is denied with embarrassing ignorance by people I otherwise respect when their brains are engaged, I suspect that scientists from China, India, Russia, Japan and a host of other countries are immune to the FUD. I remain hopeful of the eCat but, no matter its fate, Rossi has started the train and it’s gathering steam.
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Shane D.
November 27, 2011 at 7:17 pm
Admin,
It’s good you’re doing this. The pace of developments in the LENR field have accelerated to a point where it is hard to keep all the facts, and timelines straight.
Each story, on it’s own, would be (should be) head-line news, easily digestible, yet all being thrown at us in such a short time span, makes it so easy for all, except the addicted like myself, to brain overload and miss the significance.
I’ve referred a few to this site and what with all the new info coming on line almost daily it might be good to take the neophytes by the hand and navigate them through the “thicket” as you did.
Again, nice work on this forum.
Casey
November 27, 2011 at 8:18 pm
Let me sloppily paraphrase a very interesting part
You need a DOE license to create tritium. We’ve created tritium in our experiments, and how have we kept the DOE away? They don’t believe us. Rossi might be doing the same thing by not giving absolute proof to keep the regulators away at this point.
He may have a point. I could imagine the headlines “Eccentric Italian Scientist Arrested for Operating Unlicensed Nuclear Device”
Tom Baccei
November 27, 2011 at 8:39 pm
Funny how the same events lead to such different conclusions.
—–Take the “Leonardo Corp.” lack of physical address for offices, factories etc. Skeptics, see evidence of fraud. Do they really think that Rossi will run an accessible operation at this point? If his ecat is real, before long the world will be hounding him like a reincarnation of Elvis. And, considering the scope of the “scam” do you think he would leave such an obvious, even trite “tell”. Sure he’ll have a factory where you can drive right up to the gate (sarcasm). You know, take the boys out for a beer, and bribe them in one way or another to “leak” details of the process. Sure. The pathoskeps are just totally unsophisticated. Consider that, real or phony, the “Big” cat had to have taken some effort to build. Makes sense to me that he has SOMEWHERE to build it, and that he wouldn’t want them to know where that was.
——And then the matter of guilt by association regarding the cast of characters around and involved with him. Storm, Josephson and others involved with and interested in “green” energy for quite a while. Well, who do you think he would associate with? The dean of MIT? If you presume that these folks are all crooks, charlatans, phonies and thieves I guess it is sinister. But I take the view that they are highly motivated and optimistic about finding the holy grail. In what way does that refute Rossi’s efforts? I would expect him to be involved with people just like that.
—- Also his “criminal” history. I have spent a few hours trying to get a real handle on it. Some say 3 convictions, some say 5. Some say for “tax evasion” some say for “toxic waste” storage. Some say he produced “fuel”. some say not. I ask the various contributors to provide source documents pertaining to these charges and/or convictions. I truly would like to have as much correct evidence in this area as I would like to have regarding the ecat itself. There is no doubt that Rossi DID work on developing a method to convert waste material to fuel. He obviously did not do well with the byproduct. Was he a “Fraud” in the sense that there was NO technology and it was all a sham? Clearly not. Did he cut corners, cheat the taxman? Seems that he did. But was never anything like the charade that he is accused of regarding LENR. Absolutely not.
Another factor. He is not so young, and it would appear he had (has) a reasonable fortune. He had it before with PetrolDragon. Having had the 2 decades of hard times under the eyes of the establishment, I cannot even begin to believe that he is perpetrating a first level, straight out scam. Maybe the ecat works only mezza mezza. SO WHAT!
I just wish the skeptics would try a little harder to do a reality check on their concerns. Like providing documentation on his “criminal” past, instead of simply quoting claims. Or think enough to understand that his operation will not be accessible to public pressure for as long as he can keep it hidden, and that he most certainly will associate with believers, advocates and other LENR researchers!
Tom Baccei
November 27, 2011 at 9:00 pm
P.S>
I have today decide to begin building an LENR device based on the published specs by Chan and others. Are the skeptics doing the same? I think not! They already know the truth, and the laws of the universe. This is where my “wager” goes. If I can replicate regular excess energy production, will any of you pathoskeps kick in a dime to pay for the work? I doubt it. You all simply reenforce your certainty with each others steam (as in over 100C, real steam, read Hot Air!)
CM Edwards
November 28, 2011 at 3:17 pm
Good for you, Tom.
I haven’t been able to start my own such project, and still can’t for a few months, so until then I must live vicariously through those better able. But you are doing the right thing.
Experiment trumps argument.
Build safe, be safe, and post your status periodically for us wallflowers.
LCD
November 28, 2011 at 3:19 pm
Good for you Tom.
Stephen
November 29, 2011 at 12:15 am
Well Tom, you did not take me up following your previous rant, so I’ll take you up on this, I’ll put one together as well, as per Mr. Chan publication. You don’t get a dime, neither the charities, I’ll put the money on the BOM.
Good thing I already have access to a couple of Neutron detectors, these things are awfully expensive these days.
Do we allow ourselves to experiment, and document publicly of course, with the Ni physical form or de we have to stick with Mr. Chan chosen form?
LCD has an experimenter forum, I’ll sign up for it. Talk to you later.
PS I am in British Columbia, Canada, are you anywhere near, if ready to exchange?
Renzo
November 27, 2011 at 9:58 pm
Just today Passerini has published a post about some of the trials that Rossi was subjected to for financial matters (some related to Petroldragon):
http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/11/ma-facciamola-finita.html
he has been always acquitted. Regarding Petroldragon Rossi has his version of facts at http://ingandrearossi.com/
I’d like to know much more, the are conflicting informations: some say he never produced fuel, some say he dumped toxic waste and it was only a scam. Yet we know at the end he was acquitted also for the charges of enviromental crime. We need a journalist at work to shed a full light on this!! I can only say that if Rossi was framed and destroyed by enemies I wouldn’t be surprised at all, the italian judiciary system is rotten to the bone
Shane D.
November 27, 2011 at 11:47 pm
Renzo,
Organized crime has historically been heavily involved in both waste collection and disposal throughout the world. Southern Italy in particular. Make inroads into their profitable, illegal waste dumping, and they will push back.
That may be why there is little investigative reporting on this. And also why Rossi hesitates to talk in depth about it. And maybe why Rossi was aquitted so many times and eventually, I believe, found guilty of a misdemeanor.
Casey
November 28, 2011 at 1:47 am
My impression was that his company was recycling chemicals, much as used engine oil can be recycled, and the laws were changed because he was undercutting the competition classifying his recycled chemicals as hazardous waste.
Renzo
November 28, 2011 at 8:09 am
By the way I read “Petrolio dai rifiuti” an instant book about the Petroldragon published in 1980, the early years when Rossi was a celebrity and long before the catastrophic end. Not a small part of the book tells stories of sabotages against Rossi and the plants. If that’s true it would be consistent with a final successful scheme against him.
If I were a journalist I’d investigate and piece together all the Petroldragon story, Rossi’s life seems the stuff of movies
Val Gorsky
November 28, 2011 at 1:20 am
I think Tesla words rings very truth today: “Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.”
Casey
November 28, 2011 at 1:49 am
Rossi is certainly an eccentric, but no more so than Edison or Tesla.
arian
November 28, 2011 at 5:27 am
Article about trip of andrea rossi to massachusetts from boston globe
http://bostonglobe.com/business/2011/11/28/cold-fusion-project-looks-for-home-massachusetts/w7FgGyI9Zx432chxuD5BEL/story.html
Tony
November 28, 2011 at 5:59 am
From the article:
Rossi said he would also like to develop smaller household cold fusion power generators in Massachusetts.
“I’m already planning to come back soon,’’ he said. “We are all hoping to get something started in a matter of weeks, not months.’’
Frank Foster
November 28, 2011 at 5:45 am
I would like to play out a scenario, let’s just say that this is all real and Rossi right. How many people would be employed vs. how many people would be unemployed? And do you think the powers too B (gov’t, oil companies electric companies) will allow the general public to benefit from this?
Tony
November 28, 2011 at 6:21 am
Andrea Rossi
November 28th, 2011 at 1:15 AM
Dear Hank Mills (regarding the answer to RH):
I am very sorry, but I must say I do not agree on the fact that further public tests could have any importance, the puppett-snakes would increase the attacks ( they are paid for this from the puppetteers) and the Customers would be disturbed from the exposition. The real duty now is to make good working plants. Nevertheless I have deep respect for your intellectual honesty, I know you want to help us; I just do not agree. New public tests could only make me lose time just to replicate the usual clownery rising with the usual aggression, whatever we do; by the way: if they think that this technology does not work, I wonder: why are they so aggressive against it? If it doesn’t work, it will die by itself; for example: there are around many wannabe competitors I know perfectly have nothing working really: did you ever see any comment of mine regarding their work? Did you ever read an attack from me to a competitor regarding the fiascos of their stuff? (and believe me: I know everything of everybody).
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Peter Roe
November 28, 2011 at 8:18 am
AR: “if they think that this technology does not work, I wonder: why are they so aggressive against it?”
A rhetorical question that has been raised here on a number of occasions. Looks like AR reads all the blogs as well as running his own, leading eCat development, making business deals, running an intelligence operation, etc. etc. The man is a human dynamo, as well it seems, as the reincarnation of Machiavelli!
Hi Andrea.
Matthew
November 28, 2011 at 8:27 am
Theres one thing that would prove it to me…
Here is how it would go
1# Set up the e-cat
2# Run power through e-cat
3# Once ready for sustain mode allow it to go into sustain mode
4# Once electric system is ready(steam to electric) unplug the plug from the power outlet.
5# Plug the power into the fans, coolent system and what ever that needs to be working. Now you have a loop. No power in or out no way!
6# Get a web cam, turn it on and make a web page on your office site called e-cat t.v.
7# Run it for 6 months straight for the world to see!
All that would be attached is the water hose, but the power supply would loop back into its self.
THIS WOULD CONVINCE ME and likely make every last scienctist on gods earth crap there selfs. Me, I’d be convinced within a week.
Dale G. Basgall
November 28, 2011 at 8:28 am
Referring to the Rossi e-mail post by Tony:
Just about the time Rossi gains credibility by not having to call people “puppet-snakes” paid by “puppetteers”, that work “usual clownery” with “usual aggression” paid by “wannabe competitors” regarding “fiascos of their stuff” he tells a story reflecting upon himself again causing questionable honesty issues for himself, as I see it.
Furthermore his statement, ” (and believe me: I know everything of everybody).” and then points to himself as no problem ” Did you ever read an attack from me to a competitor “. Geeze trully does anyone see that the only thing wrong with this picture is Mr. Rossi and his actions!
Look at all the distrustfull people except me, is the message he is sending out even though he started the e-cat project also taking from others scientists work and it’s all his now.
Every inventor with a product goes through this very same scenario of companies out there just waiting for a patent application to review just in case some big company paying them has put the type of product on a request lookout list. That’s why you follow rules and besides Italy is a first to Patent law setup, so it’s whoever goes and files for a patent on a refined method for making the powder fuel that works, and then whoever refines a machine to use the powder that is less expensive than anyone elses refined product. They don’t acknowledge first to invent, Italy is first to patent so anything goes. (We see what happens in a first to invent patent law structure, whoever gets the cash first to the patent office even if the filer got it from someone else.)
So it’s the lack of doing the right thing and not following good manufacturing policies that have opened the door for the competitors Mr. Rossi now calls snakes and clowns.
Does this type of text generated by this inventor Mr. Rossi actually make anyone on this site stop and wonder from where the attitude he has, has come from? This is mad man talk and if you really had a product that worked, why would competition bother you? Inventing something after all, that becomes successful is usually made by multiple different companies in competition.
The company that can offer the most features that actually do what the inventor claims in a product or method, and has product to sell off the shelf, and it is refined to manufacture from the very least expences and offer it to sell cheaper, then that product will win over the competition. It keeps engineers and inventors on their toes constantly to keep improving methods to manufacture their inventions.
What about the auto for example, Ford has a patented product, GM has a patented product, and so on and their all automobiles with patented parts. So you don’t see GM or Ford claiming others making automobiles are snakes and clowns.
Even if “everything” Mr. Rossi has said and told us would be available and was not contradicted in some way, just the simple fact these types of names he applies to others should make one rest easier knowing there are others on his heals to compete and deliver a working product that is almost flawless to the customers, and is turn key. Take it from the box, start it up, plug in your house and let it run hooked up to your own PC. Six months later call the service rep and have him re-charge the unit. That’s a big ticket in cash outlay for any manufacturer.
123star
November 28, 2011 at 11:03 am
Well said.
georgehants
November 28, 2011 at 1:12 pm
Not being perfect we can all retaliate, it is wrong but when faced with abuse and hysterical ranting against oneself it is difficult not to.
Judge by who are the instigators of ill will who have no defense, but are purely unbalanced, probably jealous ranters against their own unrecognised dissatisfaction with themselves.
Brad Arnold
November 28, 2011 at 8:46 am
While it is true that Rossi has brought additional interest to LENR (“cold fusion”) research, the real breakthrough when it comes to resources and public interest will occur when the mass media hype it. I believe it is also true that Rossi has not stoked the mass media boiler as much as he could for whatever reason. My advice to him is hire a very expensive elite PR firm, and enjoy the ride (rather than building an manufacturing company from the ground up). Rossi seems to enjoy fiddling under the hood more than owning the best car – unfortunately every day that goes by without that mass media adrenaline boost, more people suffer in poverty without water or food or heat. Damn his fiddling – humanity needs a leader.
georgehants
November 28, 2011 at 8:55 am
Brad
We can be our own leaders if we wish and not rely on other people to tell us right from wrong or what to do for the best.
Our leaders only reflect the people, if people want a Hitler they will get one if they want a caring leader they will get one.
Matthew
November 28, 2011 at 9:05 am
My post at 8:27 would be all the PR in the goddamn world for Rossi. The media would be lined in a line 10 miles long outside of rossi’s house 36 hours after! Years on end of constant cold fusion breaking news on cnn, fox, msnbc, cbs, abc!!! Not thousands of orders, but tens of millions of orders! Rossi would be one of the richest men on earth within 5 years.
Pekka Janhunen
November 28, 2011 at 9:51 am
In my experience, developing some new technology needs certain minimum time for the ideas to mature and the right number of people and other resources. What is the right amount depends heavily on the case, but it can often be less than commonly thought. If one tries to speed up the process from the optimum by throwing in more money, the result is usually a slowdown.
georgehants
November 28, 2011 at 8:51 am
One day the World may change and somebody who is doing his own work asking nothing from anybody may be left in peace to do his thing.
If nothing else Rossi is giving the World a clear demonstration of it’s own insane mentality.
If Rossi is completely mad not one word of abuse, denial or hateful speculation is justified and is only a demonstration of one’s own weak character and shortcomings.
The World lived in by many people is a very Sad place to visit.
Tolerance, care, and common decency to other people is alien to their way of thinking, one wonders, taught by these parents what the next generation of humanity will be like.
The outcome will be the same no matter what is said, the period up to a final result is like a personal test of each persons character for themselves to see and put right if they wish.
raul heining
November 28, 2011 at 9:31 am
Rossi is doing well. He is used to mafias, don’t forger he is italian. He knows very well how to hide production and he also knows what industrial production is and how it happens. One of the probable problems with other investigators in the field, maybe Mills and others is that they do not know how to go to production and, even if they have a product, they wait and wait for some government help or even from an industrial group which never comes. With Rossi is different because he has been during his adult life in industry and he knows very well how every aspect works, from production to selling.
regards
raul
georgehants
November 28, 2011 at 9:42 am
For the people who know that the World is Quantum and most of science is still playing in the children’s paddling pool of classical reality, when there is a whole ocean of deeper knowledge within reach if they just would open their eyes and stop denying anything beyond Newton.
http://english.anhuinews.com/system/2011/11/28/004601624.shtml
Curious Guest
November 28, 2011 at 10:32 am
Any word yet from DGT??
Hopefully not just announcing another announcement……………….
Matthew
November 28, 2011 at 10:41 am
Waiting for those slow pokes. If they have something and prove it.
They will jump over Rossi into the lead! Rossi’s taking a big risk!
Thicket
November 28, 2011 at 1:54 pm
E-cat article from Scienceblogs.com.
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/11/cold_fusion_is_it_possible_is.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ScienceblogsChannelEnvironment+%28ScienceBlogs+Channel+%3A+Environment%29
John Dlouhy
November 28, 2011 at 3:44 pm
Thicket, thanks for the link. I enjoyed the short history of the “Turk”. Otherwise, the article suffers from the usual skeptical bias of assuming Rossi is a scientist instead of an inventor/business man, and offers no points we haven’t seen before repeatedly.
However, I found it fascinating, what he said about thermal fusion in the sun, that it relies on overlaps in the QM wave functions of the nuclei. I’ve never studied the subject and articles written for the layperson have always lead me to believe that the temperature/pressure reached in the sun was sufficient by itself. If this idea is correct, it would mean that a lower temperature fusion process is not so unimaginable.
georgehants
November 28, 2011 at 4:33 pm
From Defkalion
Dear all,
We will release the expected info pre-announced on November 14th 2011, on Wednesday, November 30th 2011.
Thank you for your attention
Defkalion GT
Bob K
November 28, 2011 at 4:34 pm
Defkalion speaks………..
Defkalion GT
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:21 pm
Offline
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:56 pm
Posts: 186
Dear all,
We will release the expected info pre-announced on November 14th 2011, on Wednesday, November 30th 2011.
Thank you for your attention
Defkalion GT
Top
Shane D.
November 28, 2011 at 4:54 pm
So many “big” announcements, milestone demonstrations, great strides reported by so many individuals and entities, and with each and every one comes another celebration. Too many more advancements in LENR and I’ll have to check into rehab.
Looking forward to this one Wednesday. DGT has left themselves little wiggle room. It’s either a blockbuster revelation marking a great milestone, or they’ll be doing some interesting backpedaling.
Either way would be interesting, but lets hope they come through with the goods to match the pregame hype.
CM Edwards
November 28, 2011 at 10:18 pm
Oh, I think DGT can wiggle all they want. However, to make a serious showing, they will need to show that they can deliver what Rossi will not.
Independent confirmation is an area where DGT could really beat Leonardo Corporation to the punch. “Look, we are a real business! We have a product that works outside our lab, and our customers want to be seen doing business with us!” It’s more than Rossi’s got.
georgehants
November 28, 2011 at 5:05 pm
From Facebook. He just doesn’t ask clearly why science does not report to the World that it has been replicated many times.
Albert Kong
This has gone on for many years. The press reports that ‘cold fusion’ was never replicated. People repeatedly point out that it has been replicated. The press continues to report that it has never been replicated, not a word about replication. Almost like they are deaf, or pretend to be so. Anyone else finds that suspicious? Do you think readers without the wherewithal to inform themselves, would know that it has been replicated numerous times? No! They want and expect that, for some reason.
Thicket
November 28, 2011 at 5:42 pm
The upcoming Defkalion announcement reminds me of all the anticipation for the end-October big Ecat demonstration. We all know how that turned out.
I hope for the best with Defkalion. Unfortunately I fear that their announcement will excite me so much that I will be prostrate with indifference. Rossi at least has done stuff, has charisma and provides some entertainment. All Defkalion has done up to now is boring announcements.
Peter Roe
November 28, 2011 at 7:20 pm
And produced a couple of interesting pictures. Hopefully we will find out pretty soon whether they are players or not.