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1MW eCat Post Mortem

October 30, 2011

The 1MW test is complete. When you cut through the clutter, we are told that the device ran for around five and a half  hours in self-sustain mode at a rate approaching half a megawatt. On the surface, it appears to have been highly successful.

As expected, we do not know the identity of the customer and much rests on this. According to Dr Rossi, they have accepted the machine and he will now be paid. It appears that the customer was in charge; its own engineers selecting the location of thermocouples, the test criteria and how long the run should last to satisfy them. They had free access and appeared to be more than happy at the end of the day. Since the requirements of science and business do not always meet, it will be some time before sceptics believe this is true. For business, the financial markets and governments to take notice, all we need to know is that this customer was competent and independent of the eCat team.

eCatNews followed the event throughout the day. That post and those that followed provide a good snapshot and will link you to the parts of the Net important to the 28 Oct test.

My confidence has been raised – but until we know the identity of the customer, I am not ready to jump with both feet. Rossi had the following to say about that:

  • Andrea Rossi

October 29th, 2011 at 12:14 PM

Dear Max:
The Customer is of a category that usually maintains secret all they do. I do not know if and when they will want to make public statements and I am bound to a strict non disclosure agreement.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

This is not suspicious but neatly skirts the hope of nailing this thing down so that it continually frustrates our grasp at certainty.

A genuine company, having taken delivery of such a thing, now belongs to the rare club that knows for a fact if this is real or not. If it is real then that knowledge on its own is extraordinarily valuable – either as a means to invest in the tech while confusion confounds potential competitors or as intelligence to inform playing the markets (assuming it is not a Government body or NGO). Shorting (for instance) a sector dominated by high-risk energy projects like the Canadian Tar Sands (or any other project where the value depends on high oil prices well into the future) would not be considered insider trading because all of this information is out there on the Net and because that information is about potentially competing technology and not the target companies themselves.

Unfortunately, if Rossi hired a bunch of actors to pretend to be the customer reps, created an elaborate year-long special-effects-derived series of demos, bribed, hypnotised or otherwise fooled Focardi, Levi, Kullander, Essen, Bianchini, Stremmenos and convinced a bunch of Greek crooks to set up a dummy company called Defkalion to pretend to fight with him over the non-existent eCat, to perpetuate the illusion and spin it off into a competing mirror-scam and convinced his former partners to set up another company called Ampenergo to pretend that they had a contract for The Americas for a substantial sum or that they just did this with no proof because they have worked with Rossi and trust him because he’s such a fine fellow, arranged for Piantelli, Miley and a host of others to try to fool the world into thinking that cold fusion was real, got NASA, SPAWAR, The Defense Threat Reduction Agency and The Defense Intelligence Agency to say nice things about the field, got Bushnell to make a fool of himself, sold his profitable company to his ex-partners in order to spend that wealth on a multi-million dollar scam; certain that once he got all the above ducks in a row he would pretend to sell the first device and then reel in the true target of his dastardly plan – the second (this time genuine) buyer of a 1MW plant that will net him $2 million dollars until they want their money back or sucker a $100 million dollar deal under the table because he has experience in pulling the wool over all these idiotic eyes and knows that they will just take his word for it and not want to test if his 1MW plant can heat a small village without truckloads of coal or oil or a big fat electric cable coming into the container from beneath the floor (no you can’t lift the carpet!) and that, in order to pull this off, Rossi had to risk discovery by interviewing all the people he subsequently fooled so that he could only invite the gullible Professors and not the brilliant anonymous posters on the Internet who surely would have found him out – then all bets are off and I’m with the guys who think that Rossi is an idiot and they are all geniuses.

[If you wish to put some flesh on the outline above, eCatNews Brief 1 summarises the cold fusion story, while eCatNews Brief 2 looks at Andrea Rossi's eCat]

Posted by on October 30, 2011. Filed under Bologna,Business,Piantelli,products,Tests & Demos. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

113 Responses to 1MW eCat Post Mortem

  1. Sebastian Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 9:44 am

    Very well written, thank you.
    I just don’t hope Rossi takes off and is never again heard of…

    • Kim Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 6:47 pm

      We are all acting like the caveman
      at the first fire with flint and kindling.
      Every one has run to the corner of the cave
      scared, confused, and looking like a deer
      with light in its eyes.
      Let Humanity know that a new fire is among
      us. Lets not be Children any more.
      Respect
      Kim

  2. Peter Roe Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 9:45 am

    I think that about covers it! I seem to remember ‘Occam’s razor’ being invoked several times by various ‘skeptics’…..

    • Burt Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 10:25 am

      EXACTLY!

      • D R Lunsford Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 1:21 pm

        Yes, if we all shaved with their razor, we’d have beards down to our bottoms, including the women! It’s a very strange social phenomenon how so many obviously ignorant people can set up as experts. I think this comes from the “everyone gets a trophy” ethos of modern life.

        -drl

        • georgehants Reply

          October 30, 2011 at 1:26 pm

          D R Lunsford
          Your abuse of everything not sanctioned by you implies you have an inflated idea of your position as as you say expert.
          Please say something factual that people can debate,

          • D R Lunsford

            October 30, 2011 at 1:38 pm

            Dude, why are you obsessing on me? I believe Rossi is on the up-and-up if a little bit the cockeyed inventor like the guy in “Back to the Future”. I believe LENR is real. Do you?

            -drl

  3. Chuck Bealke Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 10:42 am

    IMHO Defkalion guys didn’t need to be fooled.
    They were well aware of what cards A.R. had in his hands. They tryed to get easy cash selling licenses to as many sucker as they could.
    The Defkalion game didn’t worked out because they didn’t capture any sucker in time to feed Rossi with the promised cash.

    • Allan Kiik Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 2:09 pm

      As soon as Defkalion started selling 40.5MEUR “licenses”, Rossi declared publicly and loudly that they do not have his technology. I think, they did not capture any sucker in time because of this.

  4. Jonathan McCabe Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 10:45 am

    Well said, gave me a chuckle!

    • Peter Roe Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 11:22 am

      Me too – for entirely different reasons.

  5. Blanco69 Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 10:49 am

    Well that just about sums the whole thing up! Excellent piece Paul- How nuts would Rossi have to be to pull off a scam of these propotions!

  6. Tony Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 10:51 am

    Andrea Rossi
    October 30th, 2011 at 4:15 AM
    Dear Max Altana:
    Yes, and also in Uppsala.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Andrea Rossi
    October 30th, 2011 at 4:14 AM
    Dear Dave Price:
    Yes, R&D with Bologna and Uppsala Universities is the next scientific step, while the manufacturing and commercialization go on.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  7. Burt Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 11:37 am

    Allan Sterling says on pesn.com:

    “Scam? I think that is 99% improbable.

    Part of that is because I am privy to some confidential information about an independent validation by a very credible institution that starts with an N.”

    • Peter Roe Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 12:05 pm

      Tough one, that!

      • Burt Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 12:52 pm

        Isn’t it. To me (us all?) who have followed e-cat for the whole year, it feels mostly like Mr Sterling could get sued for a comment like this. But I like to get the information, definitely.

    • Frost* Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 12:34 pm

      Could be NATO.

      As the test took place in Italy it would fall to the Italian military to represent NATO and would explain why the chief engineer has a title of Colonel and why they wish to remain private for now.

      The large industrial U.S. group is probably a deliberate misdirect.

    • D R Lunsford Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 12:40 pm

      It’s NASA.

      -drl

      • Frost* Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 12:52 pm

        Yeah could be NASA, but do you have more evidence that nails it?

        Or is it just speculation?

        • D R Lunsford Reply

          October 30, 2011 at 1:06 pm

          A well-made hunch. I’m good at roulette and football betting too :)

          -drl

          • Stephen

            October 30, 2011 at 5:55 pm

            But not claiming to be an expert? Then why should we believe your hunch?

  8. pedrone Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    ———————–
    raul heining
    October 29, 2011 – 7:02 pm | Permalink
    Guglinski is no scientist. He tries to impose an idea taken from geometrical intuition and some no proven results of isolated experiments. His ideas can only influence people not familiar with modern physics notation. In reality he writes things in a way similar to Randon Mills of BLP, but this one knows more about physics than Guglinski.
    Regards
    raul
    ————————–

    Wow…Mr. Raul…
    Andrea Rossi and the reviewer of the articles submitted to the Journal of Nuclear Physics have a different opinion.
    I found the following reply by Andrea Rossi to a guy named Mr. insight:
    ————————-
    Andrea Rossi
    October 2nd, 2011 at 8:12 AM
    Dear Insight:
    The paper of Wladimir Guglinski is the result of a serious study. The peer reviewer who analyzed the paper “Anomalous Mass od the Neutrons” has licensed it and consequently the Journal of Nuclear Physics has been honoured to publish it.
    I have full respect of the Board Of Advisers: the Board Of Advisers decides the peer reviewer of all the papers which the Journal Of Nuclear Physics receives and the peer reviewers decide if a paper has to be published or not.
    Therefore I suggest to all our Readers to read the article “Anomalous Mass Of The Neutrons” of Wladimir Guglinski that the Journal Of Nuclear Physics has published today.
    Waem Regards,
    Andrea Rossi
    ————————-

    Raul, it seems that you and mr. insight are discomfortable because you both try to save quantum mechanics, and Guglinski it is showing quantum mechanics must be replaced by a new theory.

    Besudes, I find very interesting your idea of what is a true scientist. Because you probably know so many true scientists, but no one of them was capable to predict the correct catalyst used by Andrea Rossi.
    And Guglinski, who according to you is not a scicentist, has predicted it correctly.
    I think there is something wrong with your idea on what is a true scientists, Mr. Raul

    • D R Lunsford Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 12:43 pm

      Yes, his work is not very good. Rossi could not possibly know this, he’s a practical engineer. Whatever is going on, there is no theory of it at all yet, but when one arrives, it will look amazingly like everything else, only with some new hypotheses about matter that are consistent with what is known. That’s the way science always goes forward.

      • georgehants Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 1:05 pm

        D R Lunsford
        A little like relativity and quantum theory that science has been living off for 100 years.
        Put your analyses of why his theory is “not very good ”
        Everything looks like old science to dumb science because it shy’s away in trembling fear off new science.
        What is known about the origins of matter, energy etc. Please tell the us the origins of anything.

    • raul heining Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 8:35 pm

      If you knew a little bit of physics, not much, you would read a lot of nonsense in that article.
      It is like making a model full of speculation and imprecision. All publications refused to publish his paper because of the nonsenses written in it. It does not predict anything.
      I could even accept some ideas but when he starts to talk about antigravity, zitterbewegung, particles loosing spin when close to light speed, trajectories like in classic mechanics in quantum domain, I have to talk against. I have exchanged some words with him in an other article but is like talking about a landscape with a blind and even in Brasil, his country, he had a lot of troubles talking to people who know what they say.
      Regards
      raul

      • pedrone Reply

        October 31, 2011 at 1:32 am

        Raul, probably you are speaking about speculations like this one, used by a reviewer of a journal of physics so that to reject Guglinski’s paper, as he mentioned in his article:

        ”It is hard for me to believe those dificulties raised in this manuscript will have escaped the scrutinity of all those proeminent particle theorists. For instance, the author proposes a new Planck constant for the uncertainty principle in the femtometer scale. Had this been true, the string theorists should have encountered the difficulty long time ago and even have proposed their own third different Planck constant”.

        In his comment in Rossi’s blog in October 2nd, 2011 at 12:22 PM, Guglinski tells that his speculation was corroborated by an astronomical observation in July 2011.

        Look what Guglinski worte:

        First of all, we have to consider that obviously the fundamental quantum energy in nature must be connected to the underlying quantum ‘graininess’ of space, since the space [quantum vaccuum] is filled with energy, according to Quantum Mechanics.

        A new astronomical observation has shown that any underlying quantum ‘graininess’ of space must be at much smaller scales than previously predicted:
        Constraints on Lorentz Invariance Violation using integral/IBIS observations of GRB041219A
        Phys. Rev. D 83, 121301(R) (2011) [5 pages]
        http://prd.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v83/i12/e121301

        Dr. Laurent, leader of the astronomical observation, said:
        =======================================
        ”Some theories suggest that the quantum nature of space should manifest itself at the ‘Planck scale’: the minuscule 10^-35 of a metre, where a millimetre is 10^-3 m.

        However, Integral’s observations are about 10 000 times more accurate than any previous and show that any quantum graininess must be at a level of 10^-48 m or smaller.

        “This is a very important result in fundamental physics and will rule out some string theories and quantum loop gravity theories”
        =======================================
        http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/07/integral-challenges-physics-beyond.html

        So, this new astronomical observation is suggesting that current theories are wrong, and Quantum Ring Theory is correct.

        Therefore, dear Raul, while you and the most physicists consider unacceptable some Guglinski’s speculations (because in contrast with the dogmas of quantum mechanics), the experiments are suggesting that Guglinski’s speculation is correct, and you and the most physicists (together with your beloved quantum mechanics) are wrong.

        But you are right, Raul.
        Guglinski is not a scientist. He is an engineer. If he should be a scientist, probably he could never make the discoveries he did, because he would be one more closed-mind theorist among the scientists.

  9. Gay Mullins Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 12:18 pm

    Just where are the independent scientists who are building ecats and testing them with a simple report on what they tried and the results of the test?

    • D R Lunsford Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 12:58 pm

      You don’t understand – academic fundamental science has become hopelessly decadent – string theory, multiverses, anthropic principle, absurd claims of cosmology, black holes responsible for everything, dark matter, dark energy, eternal inflation, superluminal neutrinos – it’s an endless list of pathologies cooked up mostly by people who don’t even understand SPECIAL relativity. About the only thing they can do right is scattering experiments with giant accelerators.

      Any time you see a science show on TV, it features the mystical crackpot Michio Kaku or the carnival barker Brian Greene spouting propaganda for the mysticist’s version of quantum theory or one of the manifold pathologies listed above. Meanwhile chemists and condensed matter physicists, who are actually responsible for most of the comforts of modern life, soldier on in obscurity.

      So to answer your question 1) many if not most scientists are so wrapped up in the pathological universe they’ve put together that they are completely blind to the real one, and 2) physical chemists and condensed matter physicists are too busy with their own real work to notice LENR.

      The system of academic science – anonymous peer review, publish or perish, herd instinct, poor teaching of basics – is seriously diseased and getting worse. The economic system based on NDAs, insider trading, shady venture capitalists etc. etc. is in even worse shape. That is why no one is paying attention. If this were 1910, every real scientist on earth would arrive on Rossi’s doorstep with pitchforks and torches demanding to have a look at this phenomenon. It may be dangerous in ways we don’t understand.

      Any reasonable person with a good physics background knows that this is real. But there aren’t many reasonable people left – just hordes of pathological skeptics who over-estimate their own understanding of all things, not just physics. That’s what a 50 year culture of narcissism has bought us – an unreasonable world.

      God has just handed up the solution to most of our worldly woes, and almost no one is listening. That phenomenon is the most astounding of all.

      -drl

      • georgehants Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 1:15 pm

        D R Lunsford
        Please give evidence for, your abuse of scientists investigating, “beyond known science” phenomenon that main-line science uses nothing but propaganda to debunk.
        You said
        “any time you see a science show on TV, it features the mystical crackpot Michio Kaku or the carnival barker Brian Greene spouting propaganda for the mysticist’s version of quantum theory or one of the manifold pathologies listed above.”

        That is unbelievably insulting to something that you clearly know nothing about beyond childish scientific hearsay. Give any evidence of any kind that shows that any esoteric subject is not factual.
        Why would you wish to put yourself in the position of an irrational skeptic.

        • D R Lunsford Reply

          October 30, 2011 at 1:23 pm

          I’m a physicist, that’s why. I’ve been at it for nearly 40 years. I took great care to do things correctly and not bullshit myself. So I know.

          -drl

          • georgehants

            October 30, 2011 at 1:29 pm

            You are a physicist then talk physics, let us judge and not listen to what seems a crackpot ranting.

          • Photonblaster

            October 30, 2011 at 1:38 pm

            Hyperbolic, yes, ranting, no. georgehants, if you are a physicist like myself and apparently Lunsford, are you not outraged by the majority of the scientific press condeming Rossi rather than just being highly skeptical?

      • Spyros Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 2:10 pm

        drl

        This is the most aproximate point to the truth. Science, unfortunatelly, has behind it scientists, a bunch of people with all the drawbacks of a man in the street. Nowadays visions are scarce, ethics are absent and money is the only god.
        Let’s hope e-cat is true and it will remain in public domain because Earth has an expiration date. No more playing games because they’ll be the last.

        • AB Reply

          October 30, 2011 at 3:05 pm

          > Nowadays visions are scarce, ethics are absent and money is the only god.

          Well said. I don’t actually follow physics that much, but medicine has this problem too, even more so I think.

          • Spyros

            October 30, 2011 at 11:08 pm

            I’m from Greece and I live the whole Hell itself. I need a change and I need it desperatelly, I need the ability to dream again. For some time I follow the idea of e-cat and I cross my fingers to be true. I’m 60 years old and this world is in the brink of extinction with all these games capitalism plays.
            How many dollars can a coffin contain?

          • Peter Roe

            October 31, 2011 at 12:44 pm

            That’s the strange thing about those who have been dubbed ‘the 1%’ – while they cleverly manipulate the world to make themselves even richer, and everyone else poorer, they damage their own environment and the system that supports them and their wealth. I think the fact that they are apparently oblivious to this obvious truth must be a part of the psychopathic disorder.

      • Peter Roe Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 2:46 pm

        DRL – I would add to your two reasons, 3) Anyone seriously researching LENR is probably doing it on behalf of an industrial or military employer, and has signed confidentiality agreements that keep them very, very quiet. Such people would be fully aware of the traceability of even ‘anonymous’ internet users.

        The rest of what you say seems fair, except that the so called ‘observer’ effect really does need explaining.

      • LCD Reply

        October 31, 2011 at 1:35 am

        DR L. THAT is a bunch of nonsense dude

  10. Gay Mullins Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 12:21 pm

    Is it possible some oil interest have purchased the rights to the ecat from Rossi in order to bury it with the threat of sell or death?

    • Burt Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 12:42 pm

      Rossi has assured that this will not happen.

      • Stephen Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 8:42 pm

        Well then! The world is safe!

    • Lou Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 5:50 pm

      Actually oil would benefit hugely from this invention in processing oil sands. Wouldn’t that be interesting!

      • Peter Roe Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 7:11 pm

        Wouldn’t that be kinda like using an electronic calculator to help you design an abacus?

  11. arian Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 12:21 pm

    • Tony Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 1:05 pm

      Excellent, but wish he would steer clear of conspiracy theories.

      • Photonblaster Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 1:32 pm

        Why stear clear of a conspiracy theory? There seems to be adequate evidence that Krivit is being paid to descredit E-Cat, and has tried to blackmail people into being negative about E-Cat for fear of getting bad press themselves. And it is also clear to me that the scientific community, repeating the same scenario it has done over the last thousand years, mostly has, in its arrogance, condemmed E-Cat because it does not fit their beliefs. The latter is a passive conspiracy, but non-the-less a conspiracy in my book.

        I hope someone will go for the Pulitzer prize doing investigative reporting on this campaign against the E-Cat, I surely hope so. As a scientist I am truley embarassed about this, REGARDLESS of whether or not the E-Cat is real. It is one thing to be skeptical until lots of scientific evidence is in place, it is another to call it a fraud without evidence other than it violates their known physics rules.

        • D R Lunsford Reply

          October 30, 2011 at 1:53 pm

          Agreed. The greenies are as deluded as the string theorists.

          One thing that amazed me recently was the absolutely shockingly poor arguments made by scientists interviewed about the OPERA result. Instead of just saying “Special relativity is real, nothing goes faster than C, they made a mistake somewhere” they basically hemmed and hawed and said “It would change everything if it were real”. That shows they don’t even have any confidence in their own understanding of SPECIAL relativity. Only Glashow (and Cohen) had the balls to say “Look guys, I invented the theory of neutrinos and here’s why they don’t go faster than C”.

          -drl

          • georgehants

            October 30, 2011 at 2:02 pm

            D R Lunsford
            Why would string theorists be deluded, Ed Witten is probably the brightest mathematician practicing, they may be on the wrong track, there may be to many resources expended but , you said “The greenies are as deluded as the string theorists” an unjustified insult as you don’t know they are deluded.
            Nothing goes faster than c that science knows at present, special relativity like all other science must be looked at as temporary approximations of the final truth.
            To state an impossibility is to confine oneself to mediocrity and a closed-mind.

    • Sojourner Soo Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 2:41 pm

      Thanks, arian. I gather it’s a reply to Krivit’s latest: http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/10/30/noble-aspirations-are-not-enough/

      He’s a man looking for a lawsuit, it seems. This is slanderous.

      • Peter Roe Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 3:15 pm

        The man just gets more and more poisonous – much more so than if he is just a paid shill as some have suggested. He is beginning to come over as quite seriously deranged, when you are aware of the actual facts he so obsessively distorts and misrepresents. Now that Rossi has some loot, and the pressure is off him for a bit, perhaps he’ll have a word with his lawyer.

      • Lou Tengzelius Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 4:11 pm

        ….or smile at a man making a fool of himself.

        • Rockyspoon Reply

          October 30, 2011 at 5:14 pm

          That would be my option, too.

        • Sojourner Soo Reply

          October 30, 2011 at 5:17 pm

          Lou: Krivit would not concern me so much, except for the fact that he is destroying, single-handedly, the reputations of Rossi and the professors at UNIBO. Everybody quotes him as though he were some authority on Rossi. He isn’t. He also refuses to post any of my comments criticizing his slander and lies. I want to see somebody sue him. That would make my day.

          • Rockyspoon

            October 31, 2011 at 12:32 am

            Snakes like Krivit can’t be handled on their own terms–posting on his blog site is like sticking your hand in the snake’s mouth; you can bet you’re going to get bit. Certainly you don’t believe he’d allow any valid criticism remain for everybody to see. But don’t worry; the truth has a way of getting out. Expect the customer to be so enthusiastic about their $2 million (?) purchase that they tell their friends who will tell other friends and so on and so on. Things like this are much more trustworthy coming from a friend than coming from something like the A.P. (Trust me–they’re at the same level of notoriety as the New York Times, who is about the most blatant politically correct rag on the East Coast and wouldn’t undermine the current Obama Green paradigm (without any truly Green aspect whatsoever) even if it meant the loss of their entire readership. Oops–they’ve already done just about that.

    • Dan Absher Reply

      November 2, 2011 at 6:22 pm

      Some people think that Rossi needs to issue a rebuttal to Krivit. My take is this: In war or in politics, when your enemy is committing suicide, just stand by and let him do it.

  12. AB Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    I love that last paragraph admin.

    I think it’s Defense Threat Reduction Agency though. If not, where can I find more info about the Defense Threat Assessment Agency and cold fusion?

    • admin Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 2:05 pm

      Oops. Thanks, AB. Sorted.

      Paul

  13. georgehants Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    Photonblaster, unfounded rubbish talked about the esoteric based on nothing and put forward as a knowledgeable scientist is ranting.
    D R Lunsford, I am willing to give Rossi every open-minded tolerant chance possible the same with the people you insult in what you term “mystical crackpot s” from an open-minded point of view there is no difference in these subjects from Cold Fusion.
    One cannot be selective in open-mindedness.
    LENR is proven beyond dispute.

    • D R Lunsford Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 2:22 pm

      “One cannot be selective in open-mindedness”. If you really believed that, you’d never leave your bed, unless it was to get under it. Some things are final – most of science amounts to discovering what is final. For example, Newtonian gravitation is final. Just because general relativity replaced it, doesn’t mean it’s wrong when used within its limitations. Similarly, you don’t need quantum electrodynamics to design telescopes, which work perfectly well with 19th century ray optics.

      On the other hand, some things are just wrong – phlogiston theory was wrong.

      And then some things are, as Pauli said, “not even wrong”, that is, so absurd that they don’t merit rebuttal, like zero-point energy fictions and perpetual motion machines.

      Part of the problem we have is that most everyone is either a pathological skeptic or a wide-eyed child. Both are united in narcissism.

      -drl

      • georgehants Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 2:31 pm

        D R Lunsford,
        You are selective in your open-mindedness.
        You prove my point that Newton was a temporary explanation that like special relativity will in time be replaced.
        Until phlogiston was reliable researched one could not state it was wrong.
        Zero-point energy is accepted as the biggest error measurement in science, a 10 to the 100 discrepancy.
        I will leave you and thank you for demonstrating to all, the level of thinking that infests and inhibits main-line science.
        It is embarrassing to me that a physicist of 40 years can talk the sort of rubbish that you consider scientific input.
        Your Quote—Part of the problem we have is that most everyone is either a pathological skeptic or a wide-eyed child. Both are united in narcissism. —absolute rubbish.

      • Tom Andersen Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 2:51 pm

        Theoretical physics has not come up with much in the past 40 years, despite more hours spent on it than in all of history combined.
        Something is wrong. What will help fix it is physical results like LENR.
        The extremely sophisticated methods in theoretical physics today form a cover that is hard to break. Any new theory of physics that has merit, but is outside the mainstream will necessarily use mathematics and ideas which are crude and simple. Its too easy for the mainstream to disregard any idea couched in simple terms, with crude mathematics.

        The resulting stalemate gives us string theory, 31 dimensions and other things are “not even wrong”

        As a physics PhD, the past decades have been a long wait for something to happen, and I hope that this is a beginning.

        • D R Lunsford Reply

          October 30, 2011 at 5:15 pm

          QCD is a beautiful theory with which you can calculate – almost nothing. The standard model is pure phenomenology, not a complete theory. The electroweak sector allows one to actually calculate things, and this provides a sort of cover story for the other part, the strong sector, which is hopelessly complicated.

          -drl

          • Spyros

            October 30, 2011 at 11:14 pm

            Correct me if I’m wrong, but all Science is an approximation and speculation to what happens in Nature. A theory is a theory, a mind game. There are a lot of mysteries as yet.

        • Ben Reply

          October 30, 2011 at 5:29 pm

          Tom, if want to read an interesting theory which covers cold fusion and has implications for a number of other technologies, I would suggest Frank Znidarsic’s paper “The Control of The Natural Forces.” Very interesting. I believe he posts on Vortex on occasion. In short, he explains that cold fusion is explained by classical physics, which he postulates quantum physics is a subset of, not visa versa. There is much, much more to it than that but that’s it in a nutshell.

          http://www.wbabin.net/science/znidarsic3.pdf

  14. Jim Cramer Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 2:38 pm

    Interesting CNN iReport article on lack of news from AP.

    http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-696792?ref=feeds%2Flatest

    • jjjioman Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 2:46 pm

      Because the guy refuses to prove it.

    • John Dlouhy Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 4:31 pm

      Jim, do you think this guy, Joe Shea, is credible? He claims to have “invented serious journalism on the Internet” and then goes on to report that Brian Josephson vetted the E-Cat technology, but Josephson doesn’t know Rossi and has never even seen an E-Cat.

      • Sebastian Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 6:51 pm

        Joe Shea is the “American Reporter” (http://american-reporter.com/)
        Judging from his website and its content I would say it is not worth trusting.
        CNN might have gotten a hint, though.

    • Peter Roe Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 7:17 pm

      It might be more useful to focus on the message, rather than the messenger.

  15. jjjioman Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 2:42 pm

    Paid actors, LOL? Why would you have to pay a group of people who want something as bad as you? When is someone going to hire a PI to discover this group who thinks they can continue to control humanities growth rate?

    No notable scientists!
    No name of buyer!
    No long term runs.
    Refusal to run the device beyond what Ni chemical reactions provide. I’ve done the math & posted it before.
    Still no desire to prove this to academic scientists.
    You’re all going to get caught one day.

    • Jim Cramer Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 2:56 pm

      You must have missed the part about the customer purchasing the unit and driving off with it after testing with its own engineers. That does lend a bit of credibility to Rossi’s claims.

      • Az Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 3:59 pm

        http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-696792?ref=feeds%2Flatest

        “Even the fact that the test was performed for an unidentified customer whose representative, a man named Domenico Fioravanti, after the demonstration immediately bought and paid for it (for an undisclosed sum…”)

      • Stephen Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 6:05 pm

        You actually drove the truck? Your brother is one of the engineers? You sound so sure of everything. ‘Must be nice.

    • John Dlouhy Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 5:03 pm

      jjjioman, the reactor output the energy equivalent of 245 L of diesel fuel. That’s only a quarter of a cubic meter. That’s a pretty small tank that could be easily hidden in such a large demonstration.

      • Rockyspoon Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 5:16 pm

        I didn’t catch the location of the exhaust. Could you indicate where you saw it?

  16. Sojourner Soo Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    This is interesting. It seems a company called Thermacore had a similar device to the E-Cat in the early 1990s:

    “Thermacore Inc. 1994. Is this the progenitor to the eCat? The year was 1994 and US researchers were moving away from the electrolytic cell of Pons and Fleischmann in their cold fusion studies. Thermacore was the company and they were perhaps the first to use nickel and pressurized hydrogen at a high temperature, with a catalyst (Potassium Carbonate). Here is the abstract: “Anomalous heat was measured from a reaction of atomic hydrogen in contact with potassium carbonate on a nickel surface. The nickel surface consisted of 500 feet of 0.0625 inch diameter tubing wrapped in a coil. The coil was inserted into a pressure vessel containing a light water solution of potassium carbonate. The tubing and solution were heated to a steady state temperature of 249°C using an FR heater. Hydrogen at 1100 psig was applied to the inside of the tubing. After the application of hydrogen, a 32°C increase in temperature of the cell was measured which corresponds to 25 watts of heat. Heat production under these conditions is predicted by the theory of Mills where a new species of hydrogen is produced that has a lower energy state then normal hydrogen.””

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=235650756491130&set=o.135474503149001&type=3&theater …. links to a photo of said cold fusion device.

    Paper discussing said CF device:
    http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GernertNnascenthyd.pdf

    • daniel maris Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 5:40 pm

      I was really intrigued by this when I first heard of it. It appears to confirm the reality of anomalous heat. Has Rossi simply found a way of achieving that more efficiently?

  17. Burt Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 3:31 pm

    At http://muckrack.com/petersvensson# you can find the following information:

    petersvensson Heading out of town soon. Back Monday.
    Wednesday, October 26th by Peter Svensson, Technology Writer, Associated Press

    • Peter Roe Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 4:55 pm

      He’s probably still writing his story out with a biro, before he pops it in the post to AP (if his photos are ready at the chemist’s by then).

      • Tony Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 7:01 pm

        Now, now, don’t be rude! ;)

  18. Sojourner Soo Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 5:04 pm

    The dementors are frustrating me today in a serious way. I can only conclude they want Rossi to fail, they want to bury this story and this technology, they want the fossil fuel industry to remain powerful, they want to destroy the planet. And for what? The shareholders’ profits, that’s what. I really wish Rossi would tell everyone the catalyst and allow this technology to move forward as quickly as possible. And could somebody with Anonymous please shut down Krivit? Thanks.

    • georgehants Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 5:12 pm

      Come on Soo, be cool, life never easy, all the waiting will hopefully make the result even more satisfying.

      • Sojourner Soo Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 5:20 pm

        I can’t be cool. Everybody quotes Krivit in their articles, as if he’s some expert. He’s a deranged dementor, a pathological liar, and he infuriates me. I’m not inclined to be “cool.” I have my late Italian father’s temper. :)

        • daniel maris Reply

          October 30, 2011 at 5:42 pm

          I didn’t like the patronising and supercilious manner in which he conducted those film interviews.

        • Tony Reply

          October 30, 2011 at 7:03 pm

          Lulz, thought of Anonymous too; but you’ve got to be careful else WP:BOOMERANG

    • AB Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 5:13 pm

      Krivit isn’t that important. His articles lately are a disgrace, I agree, but he’s digging his own career’s grave doing so. Besides, maryyugo et al. also need a place to stay ;)

      • Tony Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 7:09 pm

        She/he tried commenting at: http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-696792

        Comment was deleted, probably too spiteful to remain.

        • Peter Roe Reply

          October 30, 2011 at 7:29 pm

          Ahh – poor little soldier. What surprises me is why these trolls don’t just change their IDs so they are not immediately recognised for what they are.

          • AB

            October 30, 2011 at 9:11 pm

            Probably deluded pride in what they stand for.

    • Rockyspoon Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 5:28 pm

      Take away Rossi’s monetary incentive and this whole thing might collapse from disinterest. Money (along with fame and sometimes altruistic motives) is what generally drives men to work until they nearly drop in getting new technology out the door. Don’t wish for universal implementation, Soo, or it might never happen (that would eliminate practically all incentive and it wouldn’t be fair to Rossi now, would it?)

      • Sojourner Soo Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 5:32 pm

        Sorry, Rocky. But shutting down the Alberta tarsands as soon as possible is all the incentive I or anybody else should need, including Rossi. I admire the man enormously and I am deeply appreciative for all that he has done. But some things really take precedence over profit and making money, and the planet is one such thing.

  19. Al L Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 5:29 pm

    I am not a scientist. I freely state this. Why is it, then, that I have the audacity to step into this foray, and to question the validity of the e-cat demonstrations? Surely, that defines me as belonging to the “hordes of pathological skeptics who over-estimate their own understanding of all things…”. The answer is simple: the premise for my skepticism is not based on science; rather, it is based on human behaviour. The only source of information regarding the e-cat demonstration comes from Rossi: an unidentified customer was satisfied with the test, has paid for the device and trucked it away. Other than merely reporting on what Rossi said, no-one has independently corroborated ANY of this. If you will, look into the story of the Minato Motor. Mr. Minato claimed his device was a success, held demonstrations of the same, and even claimed that an un-identified company bought 40,000 units, back in 2004. Sound oddly familiar? And today, his device is nowhere to be seen. Mr. Rossi is dangling a carrot just beyond our reach. He tastes it, gushes about its sweetness. He feeds us anecdotes of how his friends relish it, but never will he feed us the carrot itself. This behaviour certainly does not lend him credibility. Others before him, operating in a like manner, have proven themselves as nothing short of charlatans.

    • Sojourner Soo Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 5:34 pm

      Give your head a shake. Literally scores of people, besides Rossi, have witnessed his device working. I’m also certain that you have NOT. Another dementor.

    • AB Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 5:41 pm

      Your tone and style doesn’t fit the “pathological skeptic” stereotype, but more the type of skeptic that will contribute valid points.

      I don’t disagree with your post, but I want to point out that the more optimistic people here have been following this for half a year at last and are familiar with previous tests and reports and all that stuff. This 1 MW test was one of least convincing tests as far as the question “is this real?” goes, but quite encouraging for other reasons.

      • D R Lunsford Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 7:02 pm

        Exactly – informed skepticism is the liver of science if not the heart.

        -drl

        • Peter Roe Reply

          October 30, 2011 at 7:30 pm

          You mean it produces lots of bile…

          Hasty edit: Sorry couldn’t resist. But you are right, *informed* skepticism is always useful. And yes I do know that bile is actually produced in the pancreas.

  20. Eldering_G Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 5:42 pm

    Some activity on the Defkalion forum:
    http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=405&sid=ad3e990e793749f6f4214eb68b4a49c7

    I don’t know what to make of it.

    • georgehants Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 5:50 pm

      Engineer is a crazy, Defkalion are just showing they know he got his quote from wiki-rubbish.

  21. Al L Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 5:52 pm

    To S. Soo:
    Scores of people have witnessed David Copperfield make a 7 ton jet disappear off a runway. Do tell, what would you have us believe…that magic is real?

    • Burt Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 6:08 pm

      I’ve said it before – Rossi is not a David Copperfield or Joe Labero. The fantasies keep getting more and more absurd. Occams razor is usually in the hands of the sceptics. In my case, I am totally convinced of e-cat now. It’s just too bizare too fit any other puzzle. I also believe that man has been setting foot on the moon. To me that is far more strange than finding a new source of energy. I know that there are sceptics to that moon statement too, but I don’t have to convince them, do I?

      • AB Reply

        October 30, 2011 at 6:36 pm

        http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg53919.html

        > Lewan said that whoever Fiorvanati is, he is every inch an engineer. He
        knows a terrific amount about boilers, steam quality, thermodynamics and so
        on. He freely talked about the technical issues. It is good to hear that
        Rossi is working with professionals like him. Even if it is a giant scam,
        at least it is a well-engineered, safe, giant scam.

        Does anyone know where Jed is getting this info from?

  22. Kim Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 6:38 pm

    We are all acting now like the caveman
    with the first fire with the flint and kindle
    Every one has run to the corner of the cave
    scared, confused, and looking like a deer
    with light in its eyes.
    Let Humanity know that a new fire is among
    us.
    Lets not be Children any more.
    Respect
    Kim

  23. georgehants Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 7:22 pm

    Luke Mortensen
    October 30th, 2011 at 12:54 PM
    Dear Andrea,
    1. Is the 1MW container gone?
    2. Have you started building another 1MW in another container?
    3. Any improvements you want in version 2?
    4. Will the buyer of the next 1MW container be the same customer or a different customer?
    5. What city will you be working (hiring) in the US?
    Best wishes,
    Luke Mortensen
    Andrea Rossi
    October 30th, 2011 at 2:15 PM

    Dear Luke Mortensen:
    1- yes
    2- yes
    3- yes. gaskets
    4- different
    5- Miami (Fl), Boston (Ma), Manchester (N.H.)
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  24. Richard Rovinsky Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 7:35 pm

    The name of the investor was kept secret until the deal was completed, apparently. There were some videos posted on youtube by PESN (also linked from pesn.com) where AR mentioned the name of the investor just after the customer directed methodology and results were presented.

    • Stephen Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 8:56 pm

      And the name was?

  25. Tony Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 8:09 pm

    Andrea Rossi
    October 30th, 2011 at 2:13 PM
    Dear Bernie Koppenhofer:
    You mean the Puppett Snake? You bet, he will never stop shooting at me, he has been paid to do it from the well known Puppetteers. Until they use a puppett snake they are not dangerous. Soon they will use more efficient shootings. Nevertheless we will continue to work.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • un passante Reply

      October 30, 2011 at 10:38 pm

      what if the reason behind rossi’s strategy is to fool the “puppeteers” so that they realize they have a real menace to be confronted when it’s too late to block it?

  26. Camilo Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 9:11 pm

    I just wanted to comment on two issues I have not seen mentioned in the above comments:

    -Days before the test, Rossi stated that they were only going to use one of the two 500 kw modules that comprise the 1 Mw plant for the test. I know I read it somewhere in the pesn news, but can’t find it now within the clutter.

    -Am I the only one worried because the engineer Domenico Fioravanti is probably a military? Does not anyone else feels that if the purchaser is from a defense institution (hence, from the military industrial complex) this could mean that no civilian applications of the e.cat will be allow to develop?

  27. Sebastian Reply

    October 30, 2011 at 11:37 pm

    Another NASA scientist says LENR is the future (excerpt from http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/10/aviation-week-lists-potential.html):

    “Experimental evidence suggests low energy nuclear reaction (LENR) technology could be an extremely clean energy source that would revolutionize aerospace. “But much work remains to turn today’s inefficient and self-destructive devices into practical powerplants,” says Joseph Zawodny, NASA Langley Research Center’s lead scientist for the energy technical challenge area. After the “cold fusion” debacle of the late 1980s, a growing body of increasingly repeatable experimental evidence indicates the LENR effect is real and likely not fusion, cold or otherwise, he says. LENR’s promise as a green energy source comes from the fact that the ionizing radiation produced is extremely low compared to the energy generated. Given its inherent cleanliness and scalability, LENR is ideally suited as a power source for aircraft, access to space and in-space propulsion. For aviation, LENR represents such an enormous energy density that fuel consumption would be so low that aircraft could essentially take off and land at the same weight. But there remain many challenges to practical LENR power generation, Zawodny cautions.”

    • Peter Roe Reply

      October 31, 2011 at 8:14 am

      Or, translated, “OK, so it is real and definitely worth developing, but it is going to take 20 years and many billions of dollars so that us experts can take over the show and milk it for everything it is worth.” Meanwhile, AR and other businessmen will just get on with it.

  28. Carlo Ombello Reply

    October 31, 2011 at 11:44 am

    ***I’ve tried to post this several times now, I don’t understand why it doesn’t even go in “awaiting moderation”, I will delete some useful links I gave, maybe that’s the problem?**

    Very well written, love the last paragraph, it truly sums up the complexity of the scam, should this be one!

    Anyway, I just wanted to highlight the one company that surely was present at the test, FINMECCANICA. It’s Italy’s second largest company (after Fiat Chrysler) and 30% owned by the Italian Government. They are among the global leading companies in aerospace and defence. The beatiful Agusta 109 helicopter is their most famous product (in pop culture, I’d say). Here’s a brief profile from their site:

    “Finmeccanica is Italy’s leading manufacturer in the high technology sector and ranks among the top ten global players in aerospace, defence and security. The Finmeccanica Group focuses heavily on three strategic pillars: helicopters, defence and security electronics and aeronautics, which generate 73% of revenues, 67% of orders and account for 74% of the workforce. Finmeccanica is also Europe’s leading defence systems company, and enjoys a strong presence in the space sector where it controls satellite services. Furthermore, the group has substantial expertise and a well-established position on the global transport and power generation markets.”

    Their presence was at least through person n.22 in the list of attendees, Andrea Di Vita (De Vita in the list, I think it’s a typo). He works for Ansaldo Energia which is owned by Finmeccanica.

    Cheers and keep up with the good job!

    Regards
    Carlo Ombello

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