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eCat Has European Certification

October 24, 2011

Many of us have been wondering about Defkalion’s stated progress (or otherwise) regarding official certification of their eCat derivatives. Since their divorce, it is interesting to note that Andrea Rossi states that he has completed CE compliance:

Andrea Rossi
October 23rd, 2011 at 8:08 AM
Dear Dario:
The CE for the business to business has been done. For household applications not yet.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

The following snips are from the wiki entry:

CE marking (originally EC mark[1]) is a mandatory conformity mark for products placed on the market in the European Economic Area….

… It means that the manufacturer has verified that the product complies with all relevant essential requirements (such as safety, health, environmental protection requirements) of the applicable directive(s) or, if stipulated in the directive(s), had it examined by a notified conformity assessment body…

…The CE marking is mandatory for certain product groups in the European Economic Area (EEA), consisting of the 27 Member States of the EU and EFTA countries Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein…

…Depending on the level of risk of the product, the CE marking is affixed to a product by the manufacturer or authorised representative who decides whether the product meets all the CE marking requirements…

It seems as though self assessment is allowed and it is up to the manufacturer to decide on what is needed with reference to product category etc. While I suppose it is always possible to claim CE early in a product cycle without conforming (especially if the product category is not obvious), something as controversial as the eCat, that will likely be high-profile and definitely subject to safety considerations would have to be certified by an authorised body. This can be a private company but must be independent from the manufacturer.

Remembering that AR has extensive business experience in Italy and has dealt with serious amounts of energy before and remembering too that he has fallen foul of the rules in his Petroldragon days, it seems unlikely that his statement is anything other than as it says.

Of course, the rules for business to business are likely to be less stringent than those for sale to the public. ‘How different?’ is an interesting question. Ironically, perhaps by going big and targeting high-energy industries, certification is relatively easy to obtain.

Could this be one reason for going to 1MW?

Posted by on October 24, 2011. Filed under Media & Blogs,products,Rossi,Tests & Demos. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

99 Responses to eCat Has European Certification

  1. Sojourner Soo Reply

    October 24, 2011 at 5:31 pm

    Yes, it could be the major reason for Rossi going to 1 MW. I wonder how the USA will choose to deal with the E-Cat, since the Dept of Energy there does not “believe” in cold fusion and the US government will not even grant patents for devices claiming to be based on it? Fascinating days ahead, I’ll wager.

    • CM Edwards Reply

      October 24, 2011 at 6:17 pm

      It’s more likely to be the reason for the modular design than for the jump to 1 MW, because it is simpler to go through each certification step only once, and it’s the same certification whether you build one unit or one thousand. But either way, I’m glad it was done. I was vaguely worried about whether Rossi could get a claimed LENR device certified in the first place.

      Although there is leeway in interpretation of the applicable directives, self assessment alone is not usually sufficient to get certification. This means that a representative of Rossi’s notified body reviewed and approved the current design of at least the e-cat casing and pressure wall. Possibly more.

  2. Anders F Reply

    October 24, 2011 at 6:20 pm

    CE is self-certification, all that it means is that Rossi states his company consider the product compliant with EU regulation. CE stamp is not worth anything if you can’t trust the company selling the product….

  3. Tony Reply

    October 24, 2011 at 7:17 pm

    http://www.bsigroup.com/en/ProductServices/About-Kitemark/Consumer-Information/Certification/CE-marking/
    CE marking itself is not about quality, nor is it intended to convey any meaning to specifiers, purchasers or end users who are, after all, reasonably entitled to assume that what they buy from a reputable source is legal.

    CE marking and European Directives
    The letters CE on a product are intended for regulatory surveillance authorities. They represent the manufacturer’s claim that the requirements of all relevant European Directives have been satisfied. Many products are covered by these Directives and for some, such as toys, it is a legal requirement to mark the product accordingly.

    CE marking on a product, its packaging or accompanying information indicates that the minimum levels of quality and health & safety have been met. CE marking provides for the product to move freely throughout the European Single Market.

    CE marking may simply involve testing carried out by the manufacturer or it may involve intervention of an independent third party, depending on the product and the Directive concerned. Purchasers may need to check the CE marking accompanying information to ascertain that the product is appropriate for their needs.

    In summary
    In summary then, the CE marking indicates that the manufacturer has met the minimum legal requirements for their products in regard to health and safety under European Directives. CE marking is not, therefore, intended to be a quality mark.

    • CM Edwards Reply

      October 24, 2011 at 8:11 pm

      Indeed. A CE stamp is not a certification that the unit provided functions as advertised.

      However, my guess is that the e-cat fell under the pressure equipment directive or machinery directive as a boiler. As such, it’s certification probably required a third party.

      • AB Reply

        October 24, 2011 at 9:58 pm

        Here’s a link if anyone wants to read a bit about the pressure and gas directive and others:
        http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/pressure-and-gas/documents/ped/

        I did a bit of research on the subject of self-certification. Devices with greater risk require testing from an independent party, only devices with minimal risk can be self-certified. Misuse is punishable by fines and/or imprisonment.

        I would expect Rossi to know this stuff and not to take risks.

  4. daniel maris Reply

    October 24, 2011 at 7:28 pm

    Sounds excellent news to me. The balance tips back from fraud to authenticity…

    It’s an exciting build up to Friday’s test!

  5. Peter Gluck Reply

    October 24, 2011 at 8:09 pm

    How can be obtained any kind of certification for a product with a complex structure, assembled recently from parts with no certification of any kind, not tested by the authorities, not thoroughly tested by the manufacturer, based on an unknown process and existing as a unique specimen?
    Not speaking about risks associated with high temperatures say 400 deg C, possibly nuclear reactions, steam etc..
    I am very open to progress and hostile to bureaucracy- but I cannot believe this story. Let’s see this Certification!

    • Tony Reply

      October 24, 2011 at 8:21 pm

      Absolutely. Show the certificate. How is this thing getting by the RoHS Euro standards which makes it virtually impossible to sell anything into the EU that contains lead?

      From Wikipedia:

      The manufacturer of a product affixes the CE marking to it but has to take certain obligatory steps before the product can bear CE marking. The manufacturer must carry out a conformity assessment, set up a technical file and sign an EC declaration of conformity. The documentation has to be made available to authorities on request.

      Let’s see the signed EC Declaration of Conformity. No trade secrets revealed. Just a document that every company that uses the CE stamp must have on hand for every product that uses the stamp. Should be easy to do.

      Tony2

      Yes – there are two Tony’s on the site. While the other Tony is, undoubtedly, real, I’m more real-istic.

    • Sojourner Soo Reply

      October 24, 2011 at 9:24 pm

      If you are in the EU why don’t you make some inquiries to the EU authorities? I rather doubt posting your concerns on a blog will result in your being given access to the certification papers. I also rather doubt that Rossi is lying. All these details are the responsibility of AmpEnergo, Rossi’s lawyers, and/or Rossi’s wife, who is the MBA behind the business side of this.

      • AB Reply

        October 24, 2011 at 10:28 pm

        Right.

        I sent an email to Enterprise and Industry DG in Brussels briefly explaining the claim of CE certification and asking for a comment. Let’s see what I get back.

        • daniel maris Reply

          October 25, 2011 at 1:04 am

          That sounds like a good idea AB. We might get some more info that way.

          I am amazed that we have heard nothing from official agencies about this new technology involving nuclear reactions. How does one explain that? I think most likely is that in fact Rossi has had far more contact with official agencies than we realise. The alternatives, that they are unaware of these developments or are aware that a fraud is being perpetrated but are doing nothing about it, seem far less likely.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            October 25, 2011 at 6:11 am

            Maybe the device is not legally nuclear because it doesn’t use or produce nuclear materials. Actually, Rossi has said this himself many times. Perhaps it’s legally an X-ray tube. They require lead, but are not nuclear devices.

          • CM Edwards

            October 25, 2011 at 3:23 pm

            In the United States, X-Ray tubes are regulated by the same agencies that regulate nuclear material.

            Many of the EU directives exclude nuclear service equipment from CE stamp requirements. These then fall under ISO standards and national standards, but the regulations are much stricter. If the e-cat is classified as nuclear service equipment, Rossi won’t be able to just show his CE stamp and ship it anywhere he likes.

            A classification as nuclear equipment will make selling the e-cat more difficult.

        • Tony Reply

          October 26, 2011 at 3:33 am

          What you’ll get back is an email that says it’s up to the producer of the gizmo in question to review all of the extant CE regulations and determine which of them apply to the device in question. Low Voltage Directive; RoHS; EMI; they have a bunch of them. And this is just for the simple stuff like my company makes – process analytical instrumentation. And for us it takes months and months and many tens of thousands of dollars to establish the technical file and the testing path for compliance. Once we have it, the cert is published in every manual and piece of documentation we have to prove compliance. Not only a matter of pride, but a requisite for selling into the EU. If Rossi has this cert, it should be posted on his site, As it should with Defkalion.

          If Rossi (or Defkalion) has this document, a simple scan would let us see it and would go a long way towards silencing the critics. As would a simple non-steam, long-duration, independently-refereed test.

          Since the simple is never provided by Ing. Rossi, how can anyone possibly believe the complex?

          I certainly hope for the believers that the 1MW plant test is completely conclusive and shows LENR. If it does, I’ll rip my clothes off, get drunk, and run naked through the streets, screaming in joy.

          But, from what we’ve seen so far, the bigger the plant, the easier to hide the trickery. And if I see more of the University of Baloney and the NyTechnik moniker attached to it, the less I believe. If it is real, get it to someplace that can determine that.

          And to the Adminstrator:

          How can the headline be:

          ‘E-cat Obtains C E approval ‘

          When nobody knows that. Better would have been:

          “Rossi claims CE certification for 1MW Plant”

          Unless you’ve seen the paperwork, which I doubt.

          Tony 2

          • Chuck Bealke

            October 26, 2011 at 7:14 am

            Would be interesting to ask on his blog to show us the certificate and see how fast the comment will be deleted ….
            It’s funny that there are around so many people still drinking these claims …

  6. LCD Reply

    October 24, 2011 at 9:25 pm

    The certification is not the test folks, it never was. Wait until the product sells and money is received and then wait about 1 month or two to see if the customer complains it doesn’t work.

    Again I cannot see how anything will be tested for a 1MW reactor is a few days. Probably Rossi wants to get paid soon, but I just don’t see it.

    I have a feeling he will be dissappointed and he’ll have to decide to adhere to the customer’s wishes to get paid later or he will get another customer.

    Either that or I would send a team of engineers to completely scrub that fat cat clean and make sure what’s in there is completely legit.

    Whatever is easier.

    • daniel maris Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 1:05 am

      Well that is the real test according to Rossi – selling on the open market. But we are not at that stage yet, so Rossi has not proven anything yet.

      • Tom Baccei Reply

        October 25, 2011 at 1:21 am

        No kidding. What an insight. Pathological skepticism saves us all, again.

        • daniel maris Reply

          October 25, 2011 at 2:11 am

          Not sure what you are getting at. Are you saying you have a kind of faith in Rossi, despite an absence of proof? Or are you saying there is a proof that I have missed?

          My own view is that I value open science – an exploration of all avenues of human knowledge. On that basis I am completely open to Rossi and his claims. But I am not going to suspend disbelief because I am open and receptive. Let’s see what he comes up with.

        • LCD Reply

          October 25, 2011 at 3:43 am

          yeah tom I’m don’t think Daniel said anything wrong there, maybe you misread?

      • Tom Baccei Reply

        October 25, 2011 at 11:07 am

        An over reaction. It is just that we all know that nothing has been proven thus far. We have been through it over and over, and it seems pointless to keep saying it. Daniel is just discussing the mechanism of proof,and he is correct in what he said.
        Sorry, Daniel.

        • LCD Reply

          October 25, 2011 at 2:22 pm

          The lull in major activity gets to all of us. Thank God my niners are doing well.

  7. Brad Arnold Reply

    October 25, 2011 at 8:09 am

    I’m surprised no one made the analogy to Defkalion’s stated tests by the Greek government on several units. Defkalion stated they had to pay a lot of money and wait a decent amount of time to get the Greek government to run their units through lots of tests before certification was granted, how can Rossi and company skate by with self-certification?

    Frankly, I am more intrigued by Rossi shipping a “nuclear device” by airplane into the US. Wonder if AmpEnergo is involved in licensing attempt in the US, or if it is the “customer’s” responsibility.

    Looks like Rossi’s one megawatt e-cat is going to go head to head with Defkalion in the European market.

    • Peter Roe Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 9:03 am

      If we take the claims by Rossi and DGT at face value, differences in the ease with which certification is gained might reflect the differences between getting industrial equipment approved vs domestic appliances. The process is bound to be more detailed and difficult for devices that are intended for sale to the public.

      Rossi seems to have the energy industry in mind as his primary target, while Defkalion seem to be aiming more for the domestic market. They might end up head to head as they each move into the other territory.

    • Peter Roe Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 9:12 am

      Re. the other issue, are we still sure that the mysterious ‘customer’ is in fact from the US? Rossi’s claimed CE certification would only be valid for a European buyer as far as I can see, and he would probably have to jump through an entirely different set of hoops to export the unit to the ‘states. Even if the buyer is from the US, perhaps they intend to operate it at a European subsidiary until US certification can be obtained, at which point manufacture under licence in the US may bypass potential import problems.

      • Ben Reply

        October 25, 2011 at 11:17 am

        I have heard some speculation that the customer is a large Italian industrial group but I cannot recall exactly recall where I heard such chatterings. Given that his only patent so far is from Italy, that would make some sense and it was mentioned that representatives of a large Italian company where present on October 6. Hopefully that is another mystery that will be solved soon.

        • Peter Roe Reply

          October 25, 2011 at 12:59 pm

          Yes that does make sense. As a European (well Brit, anyway) I would rather like to see this thing get rolling in Europe first, so I hope the ‘chatter’ is right. Europe is a vast market that would keep AR occupied for some years I imagine, while Ampernego try to sort out their problems in the US.

          I’m not sure about the status of national patents within the EC – I had assumed that a patent from any member nation would ‘cover’ the inventor in any other member state, but maybe Rossi needs to get a separate patent in each country.

  8. georgehants Reply

    October 25, 2011 at 9:46 am

    Have this morning put this question on Defkalion’s page.
    Should be interesting if they remove it or better still give an answer.

    Who invented your reactor core.

    Defkalion could you please name the people in your organization who developed your reactor core as they will be very deserving of a Nobel Prize.
    It is wonderful that you have managed to discover this and everybody concerned deserves full recognition.

  9. arian Reply

    October 25, 2011 at 10:29 am

    #
    Andrea Rossi
    October 25th, 2011 at 4:00 AM

    Dear Andreas:
    You are right, only Italy granted the patent so far. Yes, our Attorney is constantly adjourned. The pending period can last up to 6 years, even if there is not a precise limit set by law.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    #
    Andrea Rossi
    October 25th, 2011 at 3:58 AM

    Dear R. Breathnach:
    We do not use radioactive materials, do not leave radioactive material and the highes temperature we can reach is the melting point of nickel : once the nickel melts, the E-Cat stops and this fact makes it intrinsecally safe.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • LCD Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 2:25 pm

      Thanks Arian, ultimately how the authorities deal with it depends on the physics which none of us know. Nobody gets in trouble in the U.S. for operating a nuclear smoke detector for example.

      If they can actually prove it’s safer than a smoke detector then it will be extremely easy to sell to anybody anywhere.

  10. LCD Reply

    October 25, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    “Dear R. Breathnach:
    We do not use radioactive materials, do not leave radioactive material and the highes temperature we can reach is the melting point of nickel : once the nickel melts, the E-Cat stops and this fact makes it intrinsecally safe.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”

    That is a valuable piece of information. Thanks Arian.

  11. LCD Reply

    October 25, 2011 at 2:21 pm

    I wonder if Rossi is getting less concerned about his core secrets now that Piantelli and I suppose Defkalion are on his tail. From his recent attitude and disclosures that may be the case.

    Also I would remind everybody that unless Ampenergo is now in charge of licensing to the whole world then the customer is probably still U.S. of course it really doesn’t matter at this point.

    All that matters now is that I figure out how Rossi made the reactor work…lol.

    • Ben Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 3:30 pm

      There is a group that is trying to build their own e-Cat as a collaborative effort. Might want to check it out.

      Ni H2 ECat Project

      http://www.alienscientist.com/forum/showthread.php?699-Ni-H2-ECat-Project

      I was trying to download the Patterson Power Cell patent to include on my site but the server is overloaded and I cannot connect….lol

      • LCD Reply

        October 25, 2011 at 3:39 pm

        Cool thanks.

  12. LCD Reply

    October 25, 2011 at 2:39 pm

    Just thought I’d share this with the group. I inquired about investing and a show of proof of concept.

    Dear LCD,

    Thank you for your inquiry. We do not operate in the US market and as such there is little we can do for your investment group. The best is to go directly to Andrea Rossi as his company is dealing with the US market. Should your group be operating in a different country with an interest to make the investment there, please indicate to us the country and provide us with an overview of the company discussed. We will have to conduct our due diligence and to see how it compares with other contending companies for that given country – so as to avoid unnecessary efforts and complications. After we have received this information from you, we will send a NDA to be signed by the Principal of the company entering into talks with us and from then on embark on commercial and technical talks.

    Thank you for your interest

    Kind Regards,

    Defkalion Green Technologies

    • LCD Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 5:04 pm

      It’s wierd that Defkalion is not doing business in the U.S. if they are no longer bound to Rossi right. They must be continuing on as if the contract is real so that there is no legal ramifications????

  13. Dale G. Basgall Reply

    October 25, 2011 at 2:52 pm

    George I think it’s pretty obvious that Rossi had the mixture and went to Defkalion knowing they could manufacture and would be interested. They made an agreement, disclosures were made from Mr. Rossi, the CEO at Defkalion said to the production manager of the Defkalion plant after the agreements that; (blank this guy) we are just going to take this from Rossi, we have time to come up with the 400mil so get the engineering staff going.

    Anyway it seems now there are many who want to chime in, after it took a small guy to get it to this point. Obviously something is being observed and the phenomena will be explained.

    After re reading the patents I realized Mr. Rossi claimed the priority date of the filing of the Italian patent in the U.S. patent application. So based on the April 2008 filing I estimated Rossi would have actually observed the AE late 2006 or early 2007, due to the time it usually takes from concept to the actual patent application.

    • Sojourner Soo Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 4:02 pm

      It was Rossi who broke Defkalion’s contract, not the other way around. Given the Greek banking and sovereign debt problems, Rossi could have cut them some slack. He chose not to. Defkalion, for their part, have been extremely polite about it all, in my opinion.

    • georgehants Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 4:23 pm

      Dale G. Basgall, I put the question to Defkalion to get their slant on things if possible, they have not removed the question yet, but not answered either, unfortunately some clown that can’t work out why the question was put the way it was is telling everyone about Nobel Prizes.

  14. Casey Reply

    October 25, 2011 at 3:26 pm

    Defkalion funding falling through seems all the more plausible with what’s going on with Greece. I’ve heard the wealthy have been trying to move Euros out of Greece as a safety measure.

  15. Sojourner Soo Reply

    October 25, 2011 at 3:55 pm

    I occasionally read the Vortex discussion boards. Lately, I find the “scientists,” there, at least many of them, including Jed Rothwell, have taken to ridiculing Rossi, characterizing him as the “Road Runner” cartoon, with the “meep meep” noises. How very sad. It made me instantly lose respect for all of them. This conduct reminds me of that video I saw several weeks ago, in which a scientist was mocking another cold fusion scientist during a presentation.

    • arian Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 4:14 pm

      Don’t worry if rossi have something real he will have last laugh.

    • Peter Roe Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 4:49 pm

      Mockery seems to be the main weapon of ‘skeptics’ whether they are paid trolls or gaggles of like-minded prats busily bolstering each others sense of superiority. The kind of thing you describe (the Road Runner personification) is so childish it just reeks of desperation. Perhaps the kind of extreme skepticism we see at Vortex and elsewhere is a kind of psychological protection that people who deeply fear change need to adopt. (Now who is feeling superior…!!)

    • Renzo Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 5:03 pm

      I think you overdo a bit of humour, Rothwell and others are very supportive of Rossi

      • Sojourner Soo Reply

        October 25, 2011 at 5:13 pm

        Renzo: I disagree. That is not humour. That is an all-out, full frontal ad hominem attack on Rossi. It’s personal. It’s ugly. It’s puerile. And, it’s very, very sad to see grown men, who damned well should know better!, indulging in this conduct. Stupidity, it seems, is not exempt from the field of science.

        • Renzo Reply

          October 25, 2011 at 5:30 pm

          Sorry but I can’t see any “full frontal ad hominem attack on Rossi”. Both today and yesterday Rothwell has written excellent pro-Rossi posts. On the contrary I find the comparison humorous but still sopportive: they are like Willy E. Coyote trying to catch up with Rossi who is always ahead. I read it in that way. Don’t you agree that Rossi is sometimes maddening for all us who try to understand his plans and claims? There is too much tension for the upcoming test and I think you should stay calm and relax! Regards :)

          • Renzo

            October 25, 2011 at 5:47 pm

            maybe you missed the original post by Rothwell: “Rossi is playing the Road Runner, and the rest of us, collectively, are playing Wile E. Coyote”.
            I repeat I find it very hard to read in it an attack on Rossi of the kind you stated, expecially knowing that the writer has always been the most able and lucid defender of Rossi

        • Ben Reply

          October 25, 2011 at 5:46 pm

          Ms. Soo, unfortunately Rossi’s methodology does not inspire an abundance of confidence in every one. Not only that but, as Renzo says, there is a lot of tension, even among those who have been generally supportive, and I think what you consider boorish adolescent behavior is a manifestation of anxiety. If we all had your intuition there may be less of it. If you would like to write an article exploring that topic, or just one generally to set us all straight, I would be happy to post it…..just go easy on us :-)

          • Sojourner Soo

            October 25, 2011 at 8:15 pm

            Actually, Ben, there is a lot of envy over at Vortex. It’s patently obvious. It is a psychological truism that resorting to belittlement is indicative of a self-esteem or other egoistic problem. It has little to do with tension. No doubt, it must irk these gentlemen that it was Rossi, a maverick and simple engineer, and not they, the brilliant minds of Los Alamos, NASA, etc., who made the big break-through in “their” specialty area. Tough titty, says this kitty. It seems to me that the early-era LENR/Cold Fusion scientists have now become as skeptical of Rossi, as main stream scientists were of them. Their barely disguised desire that Rossi fail with his 1 MW test, or that it experiences a catastrophic accident, or that his device is otherwise blocked by existing laws from proceeding further, is clear as day to me. I just find it sad that they would need to feel the desire to control what is not their discovery. The fact that they would wish failure upon Rossi, when they themselves have fought so long and hard for this branch of formerly “fringe” science, is very telling. When you can’t negate the message, smear and dehumanize the man himself. So typical. I am beginning to understand why Rossi disregarded all their offers of “help.”

          • Renzo

            October 25, 2011 at 10:34 pm

            Sojourner Soo , really I start wondering if the read the same Vortex list or if we live in parallel dimensions…

          • Sojourner Soo

            October 25, 2011 at 10:56 pm

            Renzo: We are definitely reading the same Vortex list. You choose to interpret what they are writing in a very positive way. I choose not to put a spin on it, but rather see the unvarnished truth for what it is. Yes, I did see the original thread and have followed the cartoon analogy from the start. It soon devolved into childishness and became a part of Rothwell’s long litany of Rossi complaints. Yes, I agree he also supports the validity of the E-Cat invention and the likelihood it isn’t a fraud, and, yes, I understand his critiques of Rossi’s style, which he clearly dislikes. But, the truth of the matter is that this silliness really hurts nobody but the one indulging in the petty mean-spiritedness, and it denigrates the whole Vortex group.

          • Ben

            October 25, 2011 at 11:14 pm

            Again, I just don’t see the discussion through the same eyes as you Ms. Soo. I interpret the discussion in a different light. I’m just going to leave it at that.

  16. Frost* Reply

    October 25, 2011 at 4:41 pm

    While we wait for more news about the 28th Oct test, here’s something to read and ponder.

    http://www.newscientist.com/special/rewriting-the-textbooks

  17. georgehants Reply

    October 25, 2011 at 4:56 pm

    It would be an awful lot faster to put down anything that is truly known, in science except for a few classical approximations all based on measurements with no fundamental understanding of there origin, nothing is known.
    Cosmology, is falling apart, genetics is still based on rubbish dreamed up by book sellers like Dawkins.
    Most are still trying to squeeze a Quantum World into a 19th. century Classical frame.

    • LCD Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 5:12 pm

      huh?

      • georgehants Reply

        October 25, 2011 at 6:04 pm

        LCD, huh?
        I guess thats for me, give me something to defend. Ha.

        • LCD Reply

          October 26, 2011 at 1:52 am

          I don’t understand what you’re saying is all.

          • georgehants

            October 26, 2011 at 9:15 am

            Nothing is known in science of the underlying causes of anything.

    • raul heining Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 11:16 pm

      Cosmology falling apart? Do you know what is falling apart?
      regards
      raul

  18. 123star Reply

    October 25, 2011 at 5:00 pm

    Where are Thicket, Popeye, etc. are they banned too? :P
    @maryyugo: I would be somehow proud of this (these) ban (bans)!

    • Thicket Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 6:54 pm

      I’m here, but I’m taking a break (:->)

      Nothing much happening except ‘Rossi says’ and ‘Defkalion says”.

    • Curious Guest Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 7:36 pm

      i feel banning is not something to be proud of. our hard core sceptics were alot more reasonable here than at some places. MY was if nothing predictable and somewhat softer in her wording here but ive always felt MY has more tied up in all this than just a personal interest based on her more brutal posts on other sources, nearly all popeyes posts were TL;DR for me, Thicket has a certain poise about him. theyve all contributed even if some needed reminders of tone or wording………i wouldnt shy from a discussion over beers with any of them

  19. Don Witcher Reply

    October 25, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    Edmund Storms has some very perceptive comments to make on the transition that has been posted on coldfusiionnow.
    http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/edmund-storms-on-transition/
    If he’s right and I for one think he may be it means that by being one of the most advanced nations the USA will find itself in one of the most difficult situations due to the advent of LENR . We need a more orderly transition than we are probably going to get. Fasten your seatbelts. Its going to be a bumpy ride.

    • LCD Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 8:27 pm

      That really depends on the physics of the technology. If there is very little radiation danger or blow up danger per se then buiding an ecat will be like building a desk from IKEA. You get the parts put them together and your done.
      Or it could be less dangerous than a fission nuclear reactor but still dangerous. We don’t know for sure but LENR advocates I’m sure think it’s the former.

      If so there won’t be an orderly transition, it will be abrupt, sweeping, and unpredictable. But probably amazing and wonderful.

      That’s again if all this is real.

      • Don Witcher Reply

        October 25, 2011 at 8:55 pm

        No its not that simple. We have huge capital investments in business as usual and a predictable future based on it. A lot of the retirement plans in this country are based on returns from Utilities Bonds etc. If those returns are devalued due to rapid write off then we will have real losses of income and large segments of the population will suffer accordingly. I recommend you listen to what Storms has to say.

        • Sojourner Soo Reply

          October 25, 2011 at 9:37 pm

          Don: I think the write-down on energy stock values and utilities bonds will happen long before the E-Cat is widely introduced. In other words, the global banking and sovereign debt collapse will *precede* any widespread deployment of the E-Cat. The collapse of the petrol-dollar-based global economy will happen long before the advanced economies even deign to accept the fact that they must transition out of fossil fuels, so entrenched are their economies on fossil fuels. They will be forced to change by economic events, not because they want to. Even after the global economic collapse, the existing energy infrastructure of the West, combined with all of the tremendously powerful vested interests in maintaining that infrastructure, will make the transition difficult. It’s going to be extremely trying for all the advanced countries to move away from fossil fuels. What’s worse is that this forced transition comes at a time when America, and “the West” in general, is already losing its dominant economic position to China and Russia, and other emerging economies like India and Brazil. The latter countries will embrace LENR, simply because they aren’t hindered by existing infrastructure to the same extent. Japan will likely also embrace it quickly, since they are totally reliant on nuclear fission and foreign oil and gas imports. It will soon all shake itself out. But, yes, Storms is correct: it will be rocky.

          • Don Witcher

            October 25, 2011 at 9:46 pm

            Soo

            Right. I’d like to believe that LENR will bring nothing but good things but I had to quit believing in the “tooth fairy” a long time ago.

            I’m afraid the transition is going to be chaotic. Nobody’s in charge. The “hand of the market” will take over. How quick will depend on the physics and how quickly we get a handle on it.

          • LCD

            October 26, 2011 at 1:58 am

            I don’t know about all that Soo, but the reason I don’t buy a rechargeable car is because for the life of the car I can buy a much cheaper car that uses just gas and still come out ahead in the finances. With cheap electricity that won’t be the same anymore.

          • Peter Roe

            October 26, 2011 at 9:39 am

            Don> “Nobody’s in charge. The “hand of the market” will take over.”

            I honestly think that this would be the best possible outcome, although I still seriously doubt that it will be allowed to fall out that way. If it wasn’t for the fact that the bankers hadn’t overdone their larceny, leading to the current crisis and focusing world attention on their activities, I suspect that official interference might already be evident.

            Fortunately, as it happens the ‘authorities’ have one or two other issues to deal with, so while they are desperately trying to keep the wheels on the world financial situation, the market might (just) be able to bring Rossi’s boiler into the light of day before the vested interests can get their tame governments to act.

            However, the moment either Rossi, DGT or some other party announce that their home heaters will be available from next week, I expect the shutters to come crashing down. Megawatt modules can be integrated and absorbed by the energy providers, but anything that allows people to go off-grid would be too much of a paradigm change to be allowed to take hold.

        • LCD Reply

          October 25, 2011 at 10:57 pm

          Don there is no way you will stop that. Hopefully the good outweighs the bad.

          • Don Witcher

            October 25, 2011 at 11:08 pm

            LCD
            Ultimately the good will prevail and I think it will take us to the stars, literally. Its just the first years that may be pretty rough.

          • LCD

            October 26, 2011 at 1:51 am

            Thinking about it some more Don I don’t think the electric companies are in immediate danger. First, any home ecat will probably at first just be a water heater or space heater. Those will probably also not be feedback reactors meaning they will require electricity. So the electric grid will still be needed, at first.
            Secondly, well I’d assume the electric companies would be buying large ecat boilers and generating electricity. So they could still be profitable.

            No?

    • Tom Baccei Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 10:58 pm

      More than anything it will be a test of political and entrepreneurial will. If the energy companies get in on it early enough, and become the big players, as I have speculated they would the transition might not be as devastating as Storms rightly fears. The huge infrastructure of the transportation sector will take 20 years to phase out. Service stations, pipelines, refineries etc. will not shut down on day one, or year one. Oil will still have many uses. In the meantime, refitting our entire society will create massive numbers of jobs. The distribution grid will not be abandoned nearly as quickly as he fears, and at least in the early years will give our society a great advantage because the Mega and Giga watt generators will have a means of distribution lacking in other cultures. The infra structure supporting the fledgling ecat technology is non existent, and will take years to develop and stabilize. If the wealth and power of this country think like dinosaurs, then dinosaurs we will become. There is NO way that having our system of roads, rail, energy distribution, education etc. are an inherent disadvantage. One problem with all the big Corps. and Banks etc. is that it takes leaders with an entirely different set of skills, attitudes and courage to flourish in the highly dynamical and unpredictable ecat economy, than is extant in the current business and financial culture in America today. We will need to go back to the Carnegie’s and Rockefeller’s DuPonts etc. Sorry, but Vanderbilt and Morgan and Aster not only were ruthless, they knew how to succeed in a hyper volatile economy. The current guys are almost uniquely button down, and conservative. Our disadvantage is not our infrastructure, it is the same putrid, static leadership that has created the skeptics I find so charming, and stale.
      Tom B.

      • Peter Roe Reply

        October 26, 2011 at 10:40 am

        Tom I agree totally with your analysis. This is why I posted a little earlier about the desirability of market forces controlling the development of e-cat technology. As far as we can see, e-cat devices do not need ‘regulation’ beyond established manufacturing standards – they appear to be inherently safe to the level required for a domestic appliance (safer than gas heating for instance). This being the case there is absolutely no real reason why development should not proceed ‘chaotically’, with individual manufacturers competing for market share by enhancing ease of startup and control, reducing capital and running costs, setting up marketing, distribution and servicing systems and all the other things a free market does best. Inevitably, the ‘market’ would also quickly take the technology into direct electricity generation, propulsion systems, miniaturised portable power systems and all the other possibilities that will eventually change everything.

        I just don’t see it happening is all, at least in the short term (5-10 years). For example, if a government (mine in this case) is so far up the a**e of the nuclear industry, that it can plough ahead with new nuclear builds in the face of the Fukushima disaster (whilst simultaneously cutting all support for tidal power that could generate 25% of our needs within 10 years) then it can and will act on behalf of the same masters to restrict this technology to their friends.

        • LCD Reply

          October 26, 2011 at 9:12 pm

          It’s kind of what George has been talking about and here is a great example. If the ecat is real then it will take a long time to get rid of the oil infrastructure. Basically the lack of scientific study for the last 22 years on LENR has created, possibly, 22 years of garbage we won’t be able to sweep up so easily.

  20. georgehants Reply

    October 25, 2011 at 8:29 pm

    Sojourner Soo, many things wrong in the World, it is very sad that humanity has not risen further, but it’s just a test for everybody to move up from petty Jealousy, and all other destructive emotions to keep moving forward.
    It is up to every individual to judge themselves but unfortunately much of our leadership is effected by selfish motivations and give ordinary people no good example to follow.
    Many people sadly shy away from a Spiritual (not religious) way of life, that can teach us all to be more caring.

    • Sojourner Soo Reply

      October 25, 2011 at 9:44 pm

      Agreed, George.

  21. Ben Reply

    October 25, 2011 at 8:42 pm

    Comment by rtlindsay on Forbes

    “You might be interested that the DOE is quietly following Rossi through one of its R&D support contractors.”

    Read whole comment below. It is very interesting but still just blogger hearsay.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2011/10/17/hello-cheap-energy-hello-brave-new-world/?commentId=comment_blogAndPostId%2Fblog%2Fcomment%2F1337-560-190

  22. georgehants Reply

    October 26, 2011 at 9:53 am

    Morning, still no answer to my question to Defkalion as to where they acquired their reactor core.
    Rossi feeling it all, hope all goes well Friday.
    Andrea Rossi
    October 26th, 2011 at 2:25 AM
    Dear Stephen,
    Thanks to you all. I am under tremendous pressure right now.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    The thing to watch for after the release of the E-cat is taxation, one must remember that oil without taxation would cost very little.
    An excuse on oil as it is a limited resource, but no possible excuse on almost free and inexhaustible energy except to control the people and maintain Capitalism for the benefit of the rich and powerful.

    • Peter Roe Reply

      October 26, 2011 at 10:57 am

      How about ‘green’ taxes George? Propaganda has been carefully used over the last decade to persuade us all that rising CO2 levels’ are a giant bugbear that is coming to get us (if ‘swine flu’, ‘bird flu’ and other ‘pandemics’ don’t get us first). So it would now be easy to propose that a massive tax on Ni-H energy would enable existing ‘providers’ to change to this zero-emission energy source and so save the planet.

      The fact that they will do so anyway to save themselves a fortune in fossil fuel costs (an energy source that is dwindling anyway) would never be mentioned. Nor would the question of why the oiks should pay for this, when corporate profits are so high they can fund themselves from petty cash (any more than the question of why we should fund defunct banks ever seems to be seriously discussed). In fact of course it would just be a huge revenue stream for governments, just as fossil fuel is now, and would also allow existing power systems to remain profitable. Two birds with one stone – and absolutely inevitable.

      • georgehants Reply

        October 26, 2011 at 12:05 pm

        Peter, a comment I put elsewhere today but appropriate, sorry for the soft stuff but it’s what I believe.

        It would be helpful if our leaders gave us the slightest confidence in their abilities or wishes to lead us forward to a fair World for all.
        Unfortunately with every policy and decision being made behind the scenes by the relatively few rich and powerful individuals who have an agenda of their own, based on maintaining theirs and their children’s continued positions of power and wealth, the rest of the population are just viewed as providers of their wealth and to be used and kept under control at all costs.
        The Media owned and controlled by these few people are very little help as they will only project the propaganda they are ordered to print.
        Most people do not help there own cause as they follow the propaganda like the Germans in the 1930′s.
        There is a lack of Spirituality in the World that authorities and institutions have created and strive to maintain.
        Values of Caring for others and not just ourselves have been lost and must be regained, it is the responsibility of everyone to look at ourselves and judge our own motives and actions, and not just the people who are manipulating us.

  23. georgehants Reply

    October 26, 2011 at 10:07 am

    Completely off subject but so important that hopefully ADMIN will forgive as it’s quite this morning.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-6632.2011.06080.x/abstract

    • AB Reply

      October 26, 2011 at 4:31 pm

      Due to a particular personal experience, I believe that these phenomena are possibly real and not an illusion.

  24. arian Reply

    October 26, 2011 at 2:17 pm

    Oct. 26, 2011 update by Sterling D. Allan

    Yesterday, the day I arrived here in Bologna, I saw a headline from the Wall Street Journal: Italian Government Risks Collapse. Then, a little later, I saw a story at BeforeItsNews about a movement percolating around the Occupy Wallstreet and related groups: Will You Help “Shut It Down” On Oct. 28th?, “a call to disengage from the military, industrial and congressional complex (as it was originally called by Eisenhower) for a full day”. They urge people to “call in sick to work, turn off all the media and appliances you can, get out of the banks, close credit cards, initiate new lifestyle changes, whatever you can do or stop doing. And don’t buy a corporate thing.”

    So while the world sees Italy on verge of collapse, and the activists are calling for a protest shut down of the corporate world for October 28, quite another thing will be taking place in Italy on October 28, 2011 — the emergence of a technology that will help us turn around the economy and give power to the people, making affordable distributed energy possible.

    We invite you to spread this buzz around, to let people know that in the midst of all the gloom created by greed, that a better world is in process of emerging.

    I find this confluence more than a coincidence. It seems to be part of the yin/yang dance of a higher power that is working with us to see the emergency of our destiny to be free and independent of the corrupt powers that be that are in process of collapsing the world, even as a new, more enlightened world is arising.

  25. Az Reply

    October 26, 2011 at 3:57 pm

    http://peswiki.com/index.php/News:October_28%2C_2011_Test_of_the_One_Megawatt_E-Cat#October_26.2C_2011

    From: “Andrea Rossi – Leonardo Corp.”
    To: “Sterling Allan”
    Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 4:19 PM [MST]
    Subject: Re: what time Friday?

    Around 11 a.m.
    Warm Regards,
    Andrea

    Citando Sterling Allan:

    > What time are you having people show up Friday morning?

    – SilverThunder 01:51, 26 October 2011 (PDT)

    - – - –

    Sterling arrived in Bologna around noon, Oct. 25.

    – SilverThunder 01:51, 26 October 2011 (PDT)

    • Stephen Reply

      October 27, 2011 at 8:33 pm

      Welcome the crew at 11:00, bullshit a little, have a great Italian lunch, get back to it at 13:30, prep work, start the run proper at 16:30… And everybody has something else to do at 20:30 but the experiment “…was a succcess…”. I sure hope this ain’t the coming scenario…

  26. Sojourner Soo Reply

    October 26, 2011 at 4:43 pm

    You might be interested in this. TVO did some good public television programs on global energy needs this past summer. Thomas Homer-Dixon presents his lecture Civilization Far From Equilibrium: Energy, Complexity and Human Survival at the Equinox Summit – Energy 2030: http://www.youtube.com/user/tvochannel

  27. georgehants Reply

    October 26, 2011 at 4:49 pm

    Peak oil has another report on Rossi but as I am banned from their page for transferring their last report, I can only give a link.
    peakoil.com/forums/post1085504.html

  28. georgehants Reply

    October 26, 2011 at 4:54 pm

    From Facebook,
    Giuliano Bettini
    “Also sprach Passerini”
    http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/10/assenza-giustificata.html

  29. Frost* Reply

    October 26, 2011 at 5:52 pm

    Apologies if this has been posted before but i can’t see any link to it so:
    Interview with Prof Forcadi – in English
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Ecatdotcom

    It was posted to the official YT account 20 hours ago.

    • Pekka Janhunen Reply

      October 26, 2011 at 6:10 pm

      From the interview: “Is this an energy revolution? -Yes, and most people have not understood this fact.”
      Indeed. 19 views of the youtube video now…

    • Peter Roe Reply

      October 26, 2011 at 7:08 pm

      Also not surprisingly posted directly on http://www.ecat.com.

    • AB Reply

      October 26, 2011 at 7:29 pm

      Focardi is 85 years old if i remember right. I can’t imagine that he would knowingly be involved in a scam involving LENR which he devoted years to.

      On a different note, Rossi is terrible at PR – there really is quite a large difference between hearing him speaking Italian and English, and it’s even more true for Focardi.

      • Peter Roe Reply

        October 26, 2011 at 7:56 pm

        He looks in reasonably good order for 85, but it must be depressing to know that the chances of him living long enough to see this thing change the world are slim. Like a lot of people I rely on intuition to assess people, and I do not see any deception here.

        Rossi is not so good at PR, but at least he spends time answering most of the questions posted on his blog. Some of them very basic, and occasionally phrased quite aggressively, but however brief the answers, he does seem to think it is important to keep communicating with virtually anyone who expresses an interest.

        AB, I don’t speak a word of Italian – can you explain briefly the main differences when he speaks in his own language?

        • AB Reply

          October 26, 2011 at 8:23 pm

          I just checked, Focardi is actually 79 according to Wikipedia.

          > AB, I don’t speak a word of Italian – can you explain briefly the main differences when he speaks in his own language?

          When speaking in Italian, they sound about as professional as one would expect. Take a look at 0:00 and then at 8:55 in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-5cFOsisAo&feature=related even if you can’t understand the language, the tone and expression are quite different compared to 11:18 where Rossi speaks English. In English interviews, Rossi is also visibly uncomfortable (as was Levi in the Krivit interview).

          • Ted Hoekman

            October 26, 2011 at 9:09 pm

            The years don’t mean too much, if one is healthy and lucky to not have genes for dementia. i am a retired scientist, have been following the cold-fusion story from 1989, a subscriber to the original cold fusion mailing list. I will be 72 in a few days and you can see what an old fart can still do when academia decides you are too ol to “profess” if you look on my blog http://tedspassivesolarhouse.wordpress.com/. I had a professor in grad school who continued to have an active lab as a emeritus publishing into his 90s shortly before his eventual demise. Then there is the old Punjabi who lives in Toronto, last week ran a marathon at 100. Now it wasn’t world class time (except for the 100+ age category) but he finished in a little over 8 hours if I remember right. So don’t diss the old guys, we remember where it all began :)

            Ted

          • LCD

            October 27, 2011 at 1:52 am

            Ted if cold fusion is ultimately proven to be true and quite viable here in the next few months, do you think there will be turmoil in peer reviewed research and maybe backlash from the public in general against mainstream science? Or do you think everybody will be too happy to care.

  30. Sojourner Soo Reply

    October 26, 2011 at 6:14 pm

    More TVO videos on energy: See right hand side and scroll through.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/AgendaStevePaikin#p/search/7/0WtubJP8waQ

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